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View Full Version : How to be a beholder mage without being a beholder



Myrmex
2009-04-26, 10:12 PM
What are the ways to qualify for beholder mage without actually being a beholder?

Eldariel
2009-04-26, 10:17 PM
Technically getting two Polymorph Any Objects on you with Metamorphic Transfer/Assume Supernatural Ability on you works. Two castings of Polymorph Any Object make the second one permanent and Assume/Transfer give you an Anti-Magic Eye, which you need to put out to qualify.

Of course, you could put the vestigial eye out anyways and a DM might let you by with that, but if not, use Assume/Transfer. You may need a second copy of the said abilities to get the Eye Stalks, again depending on rulings on whether or not they're necessary.


You may be interested in this (http://web.archive.org/web/20061112212001/http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=540563).

The Glyphstone
2009-04-26, 10:20 PM
A prerequisite is Race: Beholder, so none.

If you meant without starting as a beholder, it's easy. Be any humanoid race, and get enough money to turn yourself into an Elan (abberation) with Polymorph Any Object. Since this is a +9 duration factor (same kingdom, same size, same Int), it's permanent. Now, as an Elan, get another Polymorph Any Object into a Beholder - same kingdom, same class, same Int gives you a +9 duration factor again, and you are now a beholder.

EDIT: Ninajed, what he said.

Myrmex
2009-04-26, 10:27 PM
Goddamn, that's cheesy.
Thanks you guys.

The Glyphstone
2009-04-26, 11:01 PM
Beholder Mage is cheesy, yeah.

Beholder Mage/Ur-Priest/Mystic Theurge, on the other hand....

Chronos
2009-04-27, 12:18 AM
Beholder Mage is a class designed for DMs who want to kill off their entire party, but don't have the intellectual honesty to just say "Rocks fall everyone dies".

Myrmex
2009-04-27, 12:24 AM
Beholder Mage is a class designed for DMs who want to kill off their entire party, but don't have the intellectual honesty to just say "Rocks fall everyone dies".

If you have a weak party, sure. Otherwise it presents an easy and straight forward way to keep up with the party's actions/round with a single monster encounter.

Chronos
2009-04-27, 08:15 PM
Remember that the beholder has access to all the same optimization tricks and overpowered spells that your party's wizards do, plus can cast more spells per round than everyone in your party combined, and further really can pull off the "Schrödinger's Wizard" business that everyone always complains about on message boards, since it can know as many spells as it wants and still cast them all spontaneously.

wadledo
2009-04-27, 08:28 PM
Naturally, how many spells does a Beholder Mage 10 know?
I've always been confused by that.

monty
2009-04-27, 08:55 PM
Naturally, how many spells does a Beholder Mage 10 know?
I've always been confused by that.

All of them. Well, as many as he has the resources to get a hold of.

wadledo
2009-04-27, 09:00 PM
All of them. Well, as many as he has the resources to get a hold of.

If the beholder was just sitting in a cellar, slowly dying to death while it killed rats, how many spells would it have?:smallamused:

monty
2009-04-27, 09:11 PM
If the beholder was just sitting in a cellar, slowly dying to death while it killed rats, how many spells would it have?:smallamused:

It learns new spells as a wizard, so unless it has access to spells from elsewhere, only 2/level, plus all the cantrips.

Seatbelt
2009-04-27, 10:03 PM
Beholder Mage is a class designed for DMs who want to kill off their entire party, but don't have the intellectual honesty to just say "Rocks fall everyone dies".

My party killed a beholder mage. It was challenging, but not impossible.

Eldariel
2009-04-27, 10:25 PM
My party killed a beholder mage. It was challenging, but not impossible.

My theory is that the Beholder Mage didn't make enough effort to not be killed.

Thurbane
2009-04-27, 10:27 PM
If you have a weak party, sure. Otherwise it presents an easy and straight forward way to keep up with the party's actions/round with a single monster encounter.
The Nagahyrda from Serpent Kingdoms can do this too...

grautry
2009-04-27, 10:33 PM
My party killed a beholder mage. It was challenging, but not impossible.

Did he have casting capabilities equal to your wizards?

Because, seriously, beholder mages are beyond insane. If your party is spread out in two directions - which is not that unlikely, then with the Agile Tyrant merit, he can unload eight offensive spells in the first round. And he can use the two remaining spellstalks to buff himself.

Not to mention that a Beholder Mage can take an overpowered prestige class and continue its insane spell progression. A Beholder Mage/IoSTV? BM/Incantatrix? I don't even want to think about it.

Oh yeah and he has Sorcerer spell progression as far as number of spells go, not the wizard one. He's capable of spontaneously casting any spell from its spell list and has more spells than a focused specialist. From any school.

Beholder mages are everything that people complain about in wizards, only taken to extremes. Schrödinger's Wizard with the capability to nova like 3-4 mages put together. It doesn't even matter if you take him by surprise, since he can buff himself with 10 spells in the first round. A powerful Time-Stopped beholder could, theoretically, open 8 Gates during the Time Stop. Or just say '**** it' and unload it's entire spell list.

Let's not comment on what happens when you combine Beholder Mage, Ur-Priest and Mystic Theurge, shall we?

Chronos
2009-04-27, 11:54 PM
...then with the Agile Tyrant merit...I take it that English is not your first language? We call those "feats". Just for future reference.

Faulty
2009-04-28, 12:02 AM
Is figuring this stuff out a thought experiment or something? Because it has no practical use.

Are there any differences between the Monsters of Faerun and LoM BMs?


dying to death

Um...

Lycanthromancer
2009-04-28, 12:12 AM
Um...

:smallconfused: Dying seems to be a pretty big factor in death, generally.

Seatbelt
2009-04-28, 01:07 AM
then with the Agile Tyrant merit, he can unload eight offensive spells in the first round.

Not sure I know what this is. Which means my DM probably doesn't know what it is either...

[/quote]Not to mention that a Beholder Mage can take an overpowered prestige class and continue its insane spell progression. A Beholder Mage/IoSTV? BM/Incantatrix? I don't even want to think about it.[/quote]

Those are banned. The DM refuses to even talk about them.


I don't know the specific stats of the Beholder Mage we killed. I know half the party died. I also know the DM wasn't expecting my character, who is pretty cheesy.

wadledo
2009-04-28, 01:10 AM
:smallconfused: Dying seems to be a pretty big factor in death, generally.

It could be dying to a beholder tyrant(I think, the undead beholder thingy).

grautry
2009-04-28, 01:29 AM
I take it that English is not your first language? We call those "feats". Just for future reference.

I also happen to be a WoD player, where a similar mechanic is called "merits".

Considering that I'm, you know, human, I'm allowed to make mistakes like that. :smallwink:


Not sure I know what this is. Which means my DM probably doesn't know what it is either...

It's a feat - as has been mentioned. It's from the Lords of Madness.

Beholder mages have a little limitation - they can only turn three "eyestalks" in one area - forward/backwards/left/right. Which means, that they can 'only' unload 3 spells into one such area. With the Agile Tyrant feat, you can turn 4.

Chronos
2009-04-28, 07:01 PM
Considering that I'm, you know, human, I'm allowed to make mistakes like that.Oh, certainly, no hard feelings I hope?

(and really, "merit" is a better name anyway. In normal English, a "feat" is something you have done, not something you can do)

Thurbane
2009-04-28, 10:44 PM
Considering that I'm, you know, human, I'm allowed to make mistakes like that. :smallwink:
You know, a Polymorph Any Object could fix that for you. :smalltongue:

Myrmex
2009-04-28, 11:45 PM
Remember that the beholder has access to all the same optimization tricks and overpowered spells that your party's wizards do, plus can cast more spells per round than everyone in your party combined, and further really can pull off the "Schrödinger's Wizard" business that everyone always complains about on message boards, since it can know as many spells as it wants and still cast them all spontaneously.

As a CR 21 or 22 encounter, sure, and if you cheese it out, sure, and if you fail to account for that, sure.

But at that point, it's little more than one hypothetical construct vs. another, ie, high level wizard duel. Mostly nothing happens, since they both have a bunch of crafted contingencies, and then teleport away to find dragons to beat up and loot.


A powerful Time-Stopped beholder could, theoretically, open 8 Gates during the Time Stop. Or just say '**** it' and unload it's entire spell list.

Unless it is doing some Killer Gnome shenanigans, it only gets 1 ninth level eyestalk/round. Using its standard action to cast an ur-priest spell, and a rod of quicken, annnnd something tricky, perhaps 3 gates + timestop?

grautry
2009-04-29, 01:06 AM
Unless it is doing some Killer Gnome shenanigans, it only gets 1 ninth level eyestalk/round. Using its standard action to cast an ur-priest spell, and a rod of quicken, annnnd something tricky, perhaps 3 gates + timestop?

Well no.

Casting spells from a spellstalk is a free action - and any spellstalk can cast any spell. There are no "levels" of spellstalks as far as I can see in the descriptions.

And as far as standard actions go - I'm not even sure whether they can cast spells in their standard actions.


Oh, certainly, no hard feelings I hope?

(and really, "merit" is a better name anyway. In normal English, a "feat" is something you have done, not something you can do)

Nope, as I said when I was editing the post, I probably sounded a bit harsher than I intended when I wrote that. And really, you were trying to be helpful, so what could I really be insulted about? :smallwink:


You know, a Polymorph Any Object could fix that for you.

I should probably become a kobold, right? :smalltongue:

tyckspoon
2009-04-29, 01:39 AM
Well no.

Casting spells from a spellstalk is a free action - and any spellstalk can cast any spell. There are no "levels" of spellstalks as far as I can see in the descriptions.


Beholder Mage in general is kind of poorly written, but it's in there- the line says "from then on, that eyestalk casts spells of that level." Ten levels of spells, ten eyestalks. Each spellstalk is the casting tool for 1 level of spells, so normal casting for a 9th or 10th level Beholder Mage would be 1 spell from every level. Not quite as overwhelming as 10 9th level spells, but there's usually something worth casting (well, maybe not from the cantrips.)

grautry
2009-04-29, 02:11 AM
Beholder Mage in general is kind of poorly written, but it's in there- the line says "from then on, that eyestalk casts spells of that level." Ten levels of spells, ten eyestalks. Each spellstalk is the casting tool for 1 level of spells, so normal casting for a 9th or 10th level Beholder Mage would be 1 spell from every level. Not quite as overwhelming as 10 9th level spells, but there's usually something worth casting (well, maybe not from the cantrips.)

Ah, damn. My mistake then.

Still, even if limited by spell levels, their ability to nova is unparalleled. It's like having a Greater Rod of Quicken with unlimited charges - only better.

I still wonder how standard action casting works for BM's - that is, whether they can do it at all. The text doesn't seem to support that.

Dr_Horrible
2009-04-29, 02:22 AM
I still wonder how standard action casting works for BM's - that is, whether they can do it at all. The text doesn't seem to support that.

They can't cast their BM spells. Which is why you Theurge it with Ur-Priest to get spells you can cast with a standard action.

tyckspoon
2009-04-29, 02:48 AM
Or carry (tongue?) around some scrolls/wands/staves. Or just bite things/whack them with a mouthpick weapon.

Kurald Galain
2009-04-29, 03:28 AM
(and really, "merit" is a better name anyway. In normal English, a "feat" is something you have done, not something you can do)
Well, yes, but many RPGs on the market use "merits" (and "flaws") so of course WOTC had to name it something different.

(compare "progress level" in some RPGs that Just Want To Be Different than the common "tech level", or the many many synonyms for "turn your card sideways" since the most common term "tap" is apparently trademarked for Magic the Gathering)

grautry
2009-04-29, 03:44 AM
Or carry (tongue?) around some scrolls/wands/staves. Or just bite things/whack them with a mouthpick weapon.

A BM who is casting can't use bite attacks(or use his mouth for anything for that matter) because he needs to use his "spellcasting song" to provide for verbal components.

But scrolls/wands/staves are probably a sound suggestion(or activating other magic items).

Now that I think of it, concentrating on maintaining active spells is a standard action. Does it mean that a beholder gets Extraordinary Concentration essentially for free or is there something prohibiting actions like that?

Myrmex
2009-04-29, 10:22 AM
Beholder Mage gets arcane hands at level 1, so he can magically carry rods to use.

You only get one metamagic'd spell/round as Beholder Mage, since it take a full round to cast, since he's a spontaneous caster.

monty
2009-04-29, 11:54 AM
You only get one metamagic'd spell/round as Beholder Mage, since it take a full round to cast, since he's a spontaneous caster.

Rapid Metamagic. Done.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-04-29, 12:18 PM
Isn't there a feat somewhere that lets Changelings count as another race? That would allow cheap and easy BM entry.

tyckspoon
2009-04-29, 12:26 PM
Just for the stuff they can turn into with their racial ability, IIRC. You can only Minor Shapechange into humanoids.

Jack_Simth
2009-04-29, 12:44 PM
Beholder mages are everything that people complain about in wizards, only taken to extremes. Schrödinger's Wizard with the capability to nova like 3-4 mages put together. It doesn't even matter if you take him by surprise, since he can buff himself with 10 spells in the first round. A powerful Time-Stopped beholder could, theoretically, open 8 Gates during the Time Stop. Or just say '**** it' and unload it's entire spell list.
Well, no, he couldn't. He could, however, cast Disjunction on the party, Invisibility on himself, and Summon Monster I, III, IV, V, VI, VII, and VIII on the first round, and on the second round, repeat it. For six rounds. Or use a Time Stop in there somewhere, and get a LOT of monsters running around.

As the Summon Monster line isn't targetted, it doesn't have the access restrictions - he just has three monsters show up in each arc, and move in for the kill.

Edit:
Oh, and do note that while Polymorph Any Object can technically qualify you for the PrC, you don't have the ability to sacrifice the supernatural eye rays at that point for your spellstalks. You'll need to be able to craft those nifty eye stalk grafts for that.

tarbrush
2009-04-29, 01:03 PM
Edit:
Oh, and do note that while Polymorph Any Object can technically qualify you for the PrC, you don't have the ability to sacrifice the supernatural eye rays at that point for your spellstalks. You'll need to be able to craft those nifty eye stalk grafts for that.

According to the post explaining the idea, you get the eye stalks through Metamorphic Transfer.

grautry
2009-04-29, 01:24 PM
Well, no, he couldn't. He could, however, cast Disjunction on the party, Invisibility on himself, and Summon Monster I, III, IV, V, VI, VII, and VIII on the first round, and on the second round, repeat it. For six rounds. Or use a Time Stop in there somewhere, and get a LOT of monsters running around.

You were kind of ninjaed on this a page ago. :smallwink:

Jack_Simth
2009-04-29, 01:30 PM
You were kind of ninjaed on this a page ago. :smallwink:
Have you seen my signature line?

Myrmex
2009-04-30, 01:09 PM
Rapid Metamagic. Done.

Rapid Metamagic is a variant for the sorcerer class, which the Beholder Mage is not. You're probably thinking of Arcane Preparation, which is a feat from Complete Arcane.

Bluebeard
2009-04-30, 01:45 PM
Rapid Metamagic is a variant for the sorcerer class, which the Beholder Mage is not.

Rapid Metamagic is a feat in Complete Mage that gives the same ability as PHB2's Metamagic Specialist ACF, but without the daily limit.

Kyace
2009-04-30, 06:12 PM
Are there any differences between the Monsters of Faerun and LoM BMs?
Monsters of Faerun's BM doesn't get the superduper Mage Hand ability, the spontaneous spellcasting with neigh-infinite spells known and the poor-man's spellthief ability. It does get to ignore costly material components, but I doubt there's any material component worth more than what you lose.

Myrmex
2009-04-30, 07:42 PM
Rapid Metamagic is a feat in Complete Mage that gives the same ability as PHB2's Metamagic Specialist ACF without the daily limit.

This is the 4th time I've tried to reply to this, but the stupid servers crap up every time.

One more try:

THAT IS A NEAT FEAT; I WISH I KNEW ABOUT IT EARLIER!!

Salt_Crow
2009-04-30, 07:51 PM
So if you used PAO to turn into a beholder and took BM PrC, wouldn't you lose all your BM spellcasting abilities when PAO is dispelled? I think it's quite serious a weakness in such a powerful build :(

Myrmex
2009-04-30, 07:55 PM
So if you used PAO to turn into a beholder and took BM PrC, wouldn't you lose all your BM spellcasting abilities when PAO is dispelled? I think it's quite serious a weakness in such a powerful build :(

That problem is addressed in the link on the first page.

Salt_Crow
2009-04-30, 07:57 PM
That problem is addressed in the link on the first page.

Wow thank you! Much appreciated ;)

Nohwl
2009-04-30, 11:03 PM
Let's not comment on what happens when you combine Beholder Mage, Ur-Priest and Mystic Theurge, shall we?

do you know of any psionic prestige classes that boost whatever their spell levels are called at the rate of 1 per level?

Chronos
2009-05-01, 12:59 AM
do you know of any psionic prestige classes that boost whatever their spell levels are called at the rate of 1 per level?Cerebremancer (XPH), if you have arcane spellcasting; Psychic Theurge (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=1&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wizards.com%2Fdefault.asp%3Fx %3Ddnd%2Fpsm%2F20040925b&ei=YI_6SaXkK5e6sgPxsazuAQ&usg=AFQjCNE6aeft8wPAsUJK6YsF2QVe7OgY6A), if you have divine spellcasting, or Anarchic Initiate (CPsi).

Emong
2009-05-01, 03:00 PM
If you're willing to go 3rd Party the book "Bastards and Bloodlines" has a feat called Old Blood that lets you count as a member of any other race for the prerequisites of PrC's, feats, etc. The only limit is that it must be taken at the first level.

So take Old Blood(Beholders) and you're in.:smallsmile:

monty
2009-05-01, 03:38 PM
If you're willing to go 3rd Party the book "Bastards and Bloodlines" has a feat called Old Blood that lets you count as a member of any other race for the prerequisites of PrC's, feats, etc. The only limit is that it must be taken at the first level.

So take Old Blood(Beholders) and you're in.:smallsmile:

Still no antimagic eye to poke out, though.

Emong
2009-05-01, 03:52 PM
Still no antimagic eye to poke out, though.

Well, you can polymorph into a beholder stab yourself in the eye and 'morph back.

Fulfills the letter, if not the spirit, of the requirement.

Myrmex
2009-05-01, 09:17 PM
If you're willing to go 3rd Party the book "Bastards and Bloodlines" has a feat called Old Blood that lets you count as a member of any other race for the prerequisites of PrC's, feats, etc. The only limit is that it must be taken at the first level.

So take Old Blood(Beholders) and you're in.:smallsmile:

Yeah, one short lived game, I used that, coupled with an artificer cohort and Fiend Folio grafting rules to great abuse.:smallredface:

Chronos
2009-05-01, 09:36 PM
If you want to get really cheesy, the prerequisites say you need to put out your central eye... But they never say you need to keep it out. Hello, Regenerate spell.

Armar
2009-09-26, 09:17 AM
One thing that puzzles me, is that when you have turned permanently into a beholder, aren't you still subject to (Greater) Dispel Magic? Since the duration of Polymorph Any Object has a duration listed as "See text", and in the text it gives you "Permanent" duration and unlike "Instantaneous" duration spells, it can be dispelled.

Am I missing something, or is the answer to BM a single Disjunction?

woodenbandman
2009-09-26, 10:48 AM
Just for the stuff they can turn into with their racial ability, IIRC. You can only Minor Shapechange into humanoids.

Actually, into creatures of your type, I believe. Pseudonatural (LA +1) Beholder Mage?

Akal Saris
2009-09-26, 01:57 PM
One thing that puzzles me, is that when you have turned permanently into a beholder, aren't you still subject to (Greater) Dispel Magic? Since the duration of Polymorph Any Object has a duration listed as "See text", and in the text it gives you "Permanent" duration and unlike "Instantaneous" duration spells, it can be dispelled.

Am I missing something, or is the answer to BM a single Disjunction?

No, you're not missing anything I believe - even a normal Dispel Magic could potentially break PAO if the caster rolled high enough. So in addition to cheating your way into an insane PrC, you do so in a way that leaves the character especially vulnerable to losing all its class features if the DM doesn't play nice with you.

So getting a ring of counterspells (greater dispel magic) is probably a priority for the character, just to lessen the chance of losing his class features.

Akal Saris
2009-09-26, 02:01 PM
Actually, into creatures of your type, I believe. Pseudonatural (LA +1) Beholder Mage?

Nah, the Racial Emulation feat spells out 'humanoid' about 5-6 times in its text, starting with 'You can emulate a humanoid more closely...' There's no mention of what happens if a changeling of a different type than humanoid uses the ability (though you keep your shapechanger subtype).