Perception at Long Distance 4th ed

[HMS Invincible]

How does Perception work at long distance? A ranger in my party decided to get himself a distance Great bow + farshot feat for the 35/65 range twin shot.

The environment they are currently in is the great plains/open Savannah with some scattered trees and bushes. The DMG says that anything beyond 10 squares past a door is a +2 modifier to distance, but all the charts are for through a door.

I understand you can see and shoot pretty far, but I don't want to either let this get out of hand or punish him for coming up with a good idea. What are good consistent rules that don't involve random foggy days?

[Artanis]

That bit is about listening through a door, not seeing something that's in LoS. Last I checked, you used sight to aim a bow.

And what, exactly, do you mean by "past a door but not through a door"? A door is either closed (through a door) or open (irrelevant).



Edit: Addendum

And why would you want to nerf him in the first place? I see no way this can "get out of hand" unless you deliberately try to break things in his favor, and even then it's iffy. Going from 20/40 to 35/65 range has literally zero effect on nearly two-thirds of the original weapon's range, and are you really planning on screwing the melee characters by making the party fight enemies that attack from more than 40 squares away?

[Dentarthur]

Check out PHB p187. The only modifier for spotting something at a distance is +2 to the DC for more than 10 squares away. But really, there's no reason to make him roll Perception at all unless the enemies are making Stealth checks (edit: and they have something to hide behind).

I wouldn't worry at all about letting it "get out of hand". There's really not all that much advantage to having such a long range in most situations, and if the player burned a feat and obtained an expensive item to get that range, I say let him enjoy it whenever he can. You might even stage a couple battles where the badguys charge from a football field away, just to let him have fun with his bow by dropping a few minions as they approach. There's no reason to punish your player for trying to be particularly good at something by looking for ways to jack up the DC.

[Oracle_Hunter]

The chart, specifically:

Spot or Search Perception DC
Barely hidden 10
Well hidden 25
More than 10 squares away +2
Of course, you may want to set larger penalties for longer distances - perhaps another +2 per 10 squares?

In any case, on Earth the distance to the horizon (in nautical miles) is (1.17)[root](height of eye in feet) - that is the maximum distance that anyone can see.

For fun, 1 square is 0.000822368 Nautical Miles, so let's round that to 8.22 x 10^-4. So, you can see:

((1.17)[root](height of eye in feet)) / 8.22 x 10^-4

squares.

A 6 foot high eye could see approximately 3490 squares if the terrain were perfectly flat.

[HMS Invincible]

That bit is about listening through a door, not seeing something that's in LoS. Last I checked, you used sight to aim a bow.

And what, exactly, do you mean by "past a door but not through a door"? A door is either closed (through a door) or open (irrelevant).



Edit: Addendum

And why would you want to nerf him in the first place? I see no way this can "get out of hand" unless you deliberately try to break things in his favor, and even then it's iffy. Going from 20/40 to 35/65 range has literally zero effect on nearly two-thirds of the original weapon's range, and are you really planning on screwing the melee characters by making the party fight enemies that attack from more than 40 squares away?

I'm trying to figure out how far away the encounter should reasonably start without being unfair to either the melee party or the long range guy.

I usually do encounters with dungeons and stuff that blocks line of sight so that I can control the distance of the encounter. However, open plains makes it variable as to when an encounter starts.

Is it ok for me to arbitrarily set the distance that they start away from us? If so, how should I respond to the long range guy? His movements literally are off the map compared to everyone else.

Considering a base DC between 10-25 and a passive Perception of about 20-23. Then I should expect events will be spotted between Melee range- all the way to 60 squares away.(10 DC, +2 per 10 squares vs 23 Passive Perception) That isn't too bad, thanks for the help.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Considering a base DC between 10-25 and a passive Perception of about 20-23. Then I should expect events will be spotted between Melee range- all the way to 60 squares away.(10 DC, +2 per 10 squares vs 23 Passive Perception) That isn't too bad, thanks for the help.
If you want a little more variety, take a Passive Group Stealth Check for the Encounter (if they are being stealthy) and start then just outside the range that the Passive Perception would detect them. You can start rolling Stealth checks as they get closer.

[OneFamiliarFace]

I'm trying to figure out how far away the encounter should reasonably start without being unfair to either the melee party or the long range guy.

I usually do encounters with dungeons and stuff that blocks line of sight so that I can control the distance of the encounter. However, open plains makes it variable as to when an encounter starts.

Make it variable. In open plains, there are still ambushes (from guys hiding under fake grass mats), horses who run really fast, and average old footmen who give the bowman plenty of time to line up his shot. In dungeons, there can be cavernous openings, bridges across yawning chasms, and close-up tunnel fighting. Have encounters include mobile lurkers and skirmishers who put the hurt on the archer and give him the occasional incentive to haul butt back to the defender. And have them include nice, vulnerable artillery which the archer can ruin if the team can work together well enough to keep said lurker and skirmishers off of him.

Either way, a range-focused longbowman should have an advantage on open plains, since he will have much more time to focus his shots. If he is in a dungeon, then he is only giving up one feat and a minor magic item ability. No biggie.


Is it ok for me to arbitrarily set the distance that they start away from us? If so, how should I respond to the long range guy? His movements literally are off the map compared to everyone else.

Yeah, it is okay to arbitrarily set the distance, but Oracle's idea and just having the distance be determined by the parameters of the encounter will work out better. A player shouldn't have to use his feats (or in this case 'feat') every battle. I guess this means you use tiles though. I've always used graph paper. It's still no problem. You can just have an extra tile for where he is standing off the map (ideally, off-map areas are less interesting than on-map areas anyway, to make the on-map more exciting). If an enemy approaches him, then put it on that tile. In the meantime, keep track of the distance between the new tile and its nearest square on the actual map.