Wow.. uncool Haley. Whats wrong with you?

[Charmy]

Well throw me in the ranks of the Carebears here. #648 turned my stomach.

It seemed totally out of character for Haley. Now I'm not going to touch the "what alignment is Haley" thing with a 10 foot pole in this post, but I will say that I'm really disappointed in her behavior.

Yes, Crystal is a her rival and they hated each other at first sight for childish reasons. Yes, Crystal is an evil assassin. Yes, she tried to kill Haley and would do so again if given the opportunity. Yes, Crystal kills and steals from innocent people as the guild mandates (like most of the guild).

Does that make brutally killing and robbing her while she is naked and defenseless in her bedroom an act that isn't vile? And she seems downright pleased with herself too. This is behavior I'd expect from Belkar or Xykon, not Haley.

I'm dismayed that some people would defend this as good and just and then turn around and say V's genocide is wrong. So killing one defenseless evil being you know personally is ok, but killing dozens of evil beings you don't know isn't? Killing people who aren't immediately threatening your life or the lives of others around you is cold and dishonorable. Enjoying it is reprehensible.

Shame on you Haley :smallfrown: I hope Elan and Celia find out, she really needs an earful for this.

Two additional gripes I have:
1) How did Haley sneak attack Crystal? Crystal has Uncanny Dodge. She should be impervious to sneak attacks when caught flat-footed. If she was being flanked it would be a different story. She may be the same level as Haley, but she may have enough assassin levels that there is more than 4 level gap between her and Haley's rogue level. But she isn't flanked or paralyzed. This strikes me as an error.

2) Celia's complete obliviousness, gullibility and lack of common sense are really getting to me. Clearly hanging around OoTS for so long hasn't savvied her up at all. I'd love to see some more character development from her.

[lord_khaine]

1) How did Haley sneak attack Crystal? We know they're the same level, and Crystal has Uncanny Dodge. She should be impervious to sneak attacks even when caught flat-footed. This strikes me as an error.


this could be explained by Crystal not being a pure Rogue/assasin, personaly i have allways belived she had some fighter levels as well.


2) Celia's complete obliviousness, gullibility and lack of common sense are really getting to me. Clearly hanging around OoTS for so long hasn't savvied her up at all. I'd love to see some more character development from her.

yeah i agree Celia is a bit naive here, but you really cant blame her, Haley has proberly full ranks in her bluff skill, so she doesnt have a living chance detecting the lie.

[Snake-Aes]

Well throw me in the ranks of the Carebears here. #648 turned my stomach.

It seemed totally out of character for Haley. Now I'm not going to touch the "what alignment is Haley" thing with a 10 foot pole in this post, but I will say that I'm really disappointed in her behavior.

Yes, Crystal is a her rival and they hated each other at first sight for childish reasons. Yes, Crystal is an evil assassin. Yes, she tried to kill Haley and would do so again if given the opportunity. Yes, Crystal kills and steals from innocent people as the guild mandates (like most of the guild).

Does that make brutally killing and robbing her while she is naked and defenseless in her bedroom an act that isn't vile? And she seems downright pleased with herself too. This is behavior I'd expect from Belkar or Xykon, not Haley.

I'm dismayed that some people would defend this as good and just and then turn around and say V's genocide is wrong. So killing one defenseless evil being you know personally is ok, but killing dozens of evil beings you don't know isn't? Killing people who aren't immediately threatening your life or the lives of others around you is cold and dishonorable. Enjoying it is reprehensible.

Shame on you Haley :smallfrown: I hope Elan and Celia find out, she really needs an earful for this.

Two additional gripes I have:
1) How did Haley sneak attack Crystal? Crystal has Uncanny Dodge. She should be impervious to sneak attacks when caught flat-footed. If she was being flanked or it would be a different story. She may be the same level as Haley, but she may have enough assassin levels that there is more than 4 level gap between her and Haley's rogue level. But she isn't flanked or paralyzed. This strikes me as an error.

2) Celia's complete obliviousness, gullibility and lack of common sense are really getting to me. Clearly hanging around OoTS for so long hasn't savvied her up at all. I'd love to see some more character development from her.

Putting aside the Yes It Is evil part, she's really enacting revenge after all...
1) Crystal has assassin levels. If I recall correctly they don't stack towards Uncanny Dodge.
2) Well... <shrug> I found it funny, and not *entirely* unlikely. Haley has a good bluff modifier.

[Charmy]

1) Crystal has assassin levels. If I recall correctly they don't stack towards Uncanny Dodge.

Sorry, I edited my post to clarify but this board moves fast :p

From my understanding, Uncanny Dodge doesn't care about what the rogue level differences are between targets. If you have the skill (which Crystal does if she has more than 4 levels of Rogue or 2 levels of Assassin - which is almost guaranteed unless she's like a Fighter 11/Rogue 3/Assassin 1 or something) then you simply cannot be denied your Dex bonus when flat footed. Ergo, you cannot be sneak attacked.

[misterk]

Yeah, it extremely bothered me. I can see the justification for it- she needs to save her dad and to do that she needs to be free of the guild, crystal was always her enemy and still likely to track her down... but this should have been a hard choice. A bleak move, taken by a character aware of the implications. The joy that Haley takes in this action is really disturbing for me.

I think it's made all the more disturbing by losing V to root for, and that of the two running off to do things, Belkar's action is more pleasant...

[petersohn]

yeah i agree Celia is a bit naive here, but you really cant blame her, Haley has proberly full ranks in her bluff skill, so she doesnt have a living chance detecting the lie.

Celia is not "a bit naive here", but she is always very naive (or at least moderately).


I can see Elan telling Haley: "Therkla was better than that." It would be mean of him, but also true.

[Harr]

1) How did Haley sneak attack Crystal? Crystal has Uncanny Dodge. She should be impervious to sneak attacks when caught flat-footed. If she was being flanked it would be a different story. She may be the same level as Haley, but she may have enough assassin levels that there is more than 4 level gap between her and Haley's rogue level. But she isn't flanked or paralyzed. This strikes me as an error.


Giant's said many times in these boards that he doesn't care about errors in the story or in the rules. Push the issue at him any farther than going "oh well" and you stand a good chance of being banned, as has happened to several people.



2) Celia's complete obliviousness, gullibility and lack of common sense are really getting to me. Clearly hanging around OoTS for so long hasn't savvied her up at all. I'd love to see some more character development from her.

God, please, no :smalleek: Just write her out. Everyone'll be better for it. Her part in the story was done a bunch of strips ago, now she serves no purpose but to annoy.

[Swordguy]

Does that make brutally killing and robbing her while she is naked and defenseless in her bedroom an act that isn't vile?

Yes. Yes it does. Somebody tries to kill you, fails, and makes it quite clear that they'll attempt to do so again at the earliest opportunity, and you're saying it's not OK to kill them before they can try again? You deserve it if you DON'T.

The robbing part? Did you forget that that Haley was a member of a Thieves's Guild? Y'know, a group of people who exist for the sole purpose of stealing stuff? Now, that may not a be a "good" act, but it's totally and completely in character.

Finally, fair fight? Oh, she was naked and defenseless? If you HAVE to kill somebody, that's the best time. Fair fights are for people who aren't going to survive for very long - use every possible advantage you can get. I can assure you that nobody who's been in more than one real, life-or-death fight wants to make their next one "fair" - they want it as heavily-weighted in their favor as possible.

Good for Haley.

[bobspldbckwrds]

haley killed crystal for a couple of reasons, namely that she had had enough of her, she knew that she was one of the guild's most powerful members and the most likely to be sent after her, an annoying little skank, and she knew that it would be a good way to send a message to bozzak.

it is a grim turn of events, but i can't say that it is something that i would condemn her for.

besides, crystal would have tried to kill her again later.

[Charmy]

Yes. Yes it does. Somebody tries to kill you, fails, and makes it quite clear that they'll attempt to do so again at the earliest opportunity, and you're saying it's not OK to kill them before they can try again? You deserve it if you DON'T.

Crystal has proven quite incompetent at killing Haley without help, and they were about to teleport very far away. Its very unlikely she would have been a threat to her or the party any time soon.

And by your reasoning, anyone you know for a fact would want to kill you if they were given the opportunity, is acceptable to kill regardless of the circumstances. Passing by an evil orc barbarian sitting down having a meal with his family? Stick an arrow in him while he's tucking his kids into bed - he'd kill you if he knew you were there. Oh and kill the kids too - they'd probably want to kill you too now if they could.


Finally, fair fight? Oh, she was naked and defenseless? If you HAVE to kill somebody, that's the best time. Fair fights are for people who aren't going to survive for very long - use every possible advantage you can get. I can assure you that nobody who's been in more than one real, life-or-death fight wants to make their next one "fair" - they want it as heavily-weighted in their favor as possible.

Good for Haley.

I've never been in a real life or death fight, but what I'd want is to avoid one at all costs. Teleporting far away sounds like it'd work pretty good.

She delighted in committing cold blooded murder, whether that person is a killer that wanted to kill her or not. From a character I once thought of as a decent person, its disheartening.

[hewhosaysfish]

I agree that there were many good reasons for Haley to kill Crystal... but did she have to do it with such relish?
On the surface, this looks less like a pragmatic decision to avoid future conflict and more like an act of hatred and malice.

[Killer Angel]

She delighted in committing cold blooded murder, whether that person is a killer that wanted to kill her or not. From a character I once thought of as a decent person, its disheartening.

'bout the "cold blooded", i'm stealing the content of another post:


The fact that Crystal is both a vicious murderer and a personal rival somewhat mitigates the fact that she was killed. That is what you are supposed to do to personal rivals. You kill them, before they kill you.

Not to mention that the term 'cold-blooded (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2y8Sx4B2Sk)' murder keeps popping up. I would hazard a guess that this was anything but 'cold-blooded'. There were plenty of emotions going on at the time.


That said, I understand your point.

[TheCoolThatguy]

Crystal has proven quite incompetent at killing Haley without help, and they were about to teleport very far away. Its very unlikely she would have been a threat to her or the party any time soon.

And by your reasoning, anyone you know for a fact would want to kill you if they were given the opportunity, is acceptable to kill regardless of the circumstances. Passing by an evil orc barbarian sitting down having a meal with his family? Stick an arrow in him while he's tucking his kids into bed - he'd kill you if he knew you were there. Oh and kill the kids too - they'd probably want to kill you too now if they could.



I've never been in a real life or death fight, but what I'd want is to avoid one at all costs. Teleporting far away sounds like it'd work pretty good.

She delighted in committing cold blooded murder, whether that person is a killer that wanted to kill her or not. From a character I once thought of as a decent person, its disheartening.

Teleporting away only meant that Haley would have lost track of Crystal, though. Crystal still coud have come after her and Haley would never have seen it coming.

Crystal threatened to kill Haley and came pretty damn close the first time, remember? At least this way, Crystal might not be a threat and at the very least, would lose some levels.

[Swordguy]

And by your reasoning, anyone you know for a fact would want to kill you if they were given the opportunity, is acceptable to kill regardless of the circumstances. Passing by an evil orc barbarian sitting down having a meal with his family? Stick an arrow in him while he's tucking his kids into bed - he'd kill you if he knew you were there. Oh and kill the kids too - they'd probably want to kill you too now if they could.

http://www.freethoughtpedia.com/images/Strawman-motivational.jpg

Crystal has repeatedly gone out of her way to try and kill Haley. Your fictional Orc barbarian has not. Nor have the kids. Nice try.

That said, yes. If the Orc has demonstrated years of backstabbing and attempts to kill me, and I have the opportunity to END it, then yes. I'd kill him while he's tucking the kids into bed. Absolutely. Moreover, in a similar circumstance, you'd do the same thing - because you don't want to frikkin die. The kids? No - that's just a flat-out strawman, and you're a poor debater for trying that.

However, I'll match your poor argument with a poor one of my own. You and I know each other. I spend years trying to kill you. I've put bullets into your legs on several occasions...but I'm just bad at it. Does that make it any less serious - that I'm incompetent at murder? Would you take it any less seriously because I'm bad at it? Or would you get to the point where you're hauling out a gun every time you see me, because of a repeated pattern of past behaviour? And, likewise, after I've done this for a few years, don't you think you'd be wanting to kill me for my repeated efforts to kill you?

This is a pragmatic and smart move on Haley's part. It offends "delicate Western sensibilities", true. That doesn't make it any less smart on her part.

Again, good for Haley.

[The Pilgrim]

Well, Haley is Chaotic Good, but not as Good as, for example, Elan. And in fact she is very near the border of Chaotic Neutral. That's something she has aknowleded herself when the Gibberish/Elan/Nale affair ("I'm Chaotic Good... ish!").

So murdering and robbing her arch-nemesis while she was naked and defenceless, while low, is in character fo Haley. It's just for things like that, that she has this inferiority complex about being not good enough to be accepted by Good people.

[kalkyrie]

Here's another argument re that Orc barbarian.

Imagine you are the police. You've been given evidence as to where someone with a history of killing people for no good reason (Evil aligned Orc, who'd kill you as soon as see you; Crystal). You also know they are deadly when given weapons.
If they get arrested, they will almost certainly get the death penalty.

Would you attempt to arrest them when they are fully armed and armoured, with a roughly equal CR of cops on your side?
Or would you take them down when they aren't expecting it, and minimize casualties on your side?

The situation breaks down with the fact that the police only arrest people (generally), for courts to kill them later (via death penalty). Since Haley is Chaotic (and not a fan of lawful courts), thats a side point though.

--
PS: A lot of people against V's Familocide where against the fact that V didn't just kill the Black Dragon. Using the Orc Barbarian example, s/he killed him, killed the kids, tracked down the nearest orc town, killed them, tracked down the Neutral half-orc blacksmith in the next town, killed him, tracked down the quarter-orc 'I rebel against my past' paladin, killed him....

You get the point.

[Nerdanel]

Well, Haley is making some 4d8 + 4d6 + 4 * 5 + 4 points of damage with her initial attack (assuming 1d6 cold damage and 5 generic enchantment damage from the bow per shot, plus the Point Blank Shot feat we know Haley must have).

Minimum: 32
Maximum: 80
Average: 56

If Crystal is level 15, she has 14d8 + 8 hitpoints, assuming no con bonus or penalty. This gives an average of 71 hitpoints, making it possible for Haley to drop her on a good attack.

But wait: Crystal was visibly wounded in the adventure to recover the Roy golem and was therefore below her maximum hitpoints. She still has visible scratches when she comes to answer the door. That makes it possible for Haley to drop her on a more average attack and/or drop her even if she has a positive con modifier.

So, Haley could have dropped Crystal in one turn completely without any bonus damage from Sneak Attack (which wouldn't apply). Therefore the strip is not in error.

[Terminalchaos]

I think it is totally within Haley's character to get the jump on Crystal. She cut her hair!!! Not just tried to kill her but humiliated her first - that type of extra malice would cause me to seek vengeance upon someone too. If Haley hadn't done it she would have been forever humiliated by Crystal not suffering the penalties of revenge after Celia negotiated the deal with the thieves guild. This was a personal longstanding vendetta of course its within character.

[BRC]

Nope, fairly in-character.

Haley And Crystal hate each other, they were only not killing each other because of the deal between Haley and the Thieves guild. Now the Order is back together and Haley dosn't need the theives guild anymore. And nobody was complaining when Haley killed all those theives in Pete's house then didn't want to ressurect them (In fact, people were hating on Celia for making Haley pay for the ressurections).


As for the method, totally in line. Haley is Chaotic, so she see's nothing wrong with fighting in a situation most advantageous to herself. From a lawful perspective, attacking Crystal in the shower without her magic items is bad and unhonorable. From a Chaotic perspective, it's merely efficient.

[JJ48]

As someone who normally associates with the Chaotic Good alignment, I see nothing wrong with getting the jump on Crystal while she's vulnerable. The only thing that really bothered me was how much Haley seemed to enjoy doing it, though this is offset somewhat by Crystal being a thoroughly unlikeable character.

[Zevox]

Crystal has attempted to kill Haley in the past and has made it perfectly clear that she intends to kill Haley in the future, even with the current "truce" she has with the Guild (which will no longer be in place once the Order leaves without paying Bozzok). This is no theoretical "she might possibly do me harm at some highly uncertain point in the future, maybe," like V's Familicide was - this is a person who is as intent on murdering Haley as the ABD was on her revenge on V's family. Haley killing her makes perfect sense and is entirely justifiable; which is to say, non-evil (not good, but killing rarely is). Better to deal with her now while she can than wait and give Crystal the chance to choose when and where they have their final show-down.

And I can hardly believe anyone is bothered by the fact that she did it while Crystal was defenseless. News flash: waiting for Crystal to get her protective gear and weapons ready wouldn't have been honorable, it would have been plain stupid. And would make Crystal no less dead when all was said and done; just would've made it more difficult on Haley.

Zevox

[Da'Shain]

I have to agree that it was an intelligent action on her part. That said, my reaction was still, "Geez, she changed so much!"

She's never been hesitant to kill before when it's warranted, but I can't remember her ever ... enjoying it so much. Seriously, replace her with Belkar and that stunt would have been completely in character. I have no problem with her killing Crystal when she has every advantage at her disposal, because the act is warranted and in character for her; but her wisecracking and the obvious pleasure she takes makes me cringe. Especially when I think about what Elan would say if he found out about it.

Celia really needs to get a clue. I actually love her character, but she's been playing the naive pacifist for too long to not have some insight into how these adventurers work.


For uncanny dodge, Assassins get both the normal version and the improved version. So if their level doesn't stack with Rogues' for uncanny dodge levels, something's very weird. The only possibility for Haley to actually have Sneak Attacked Crystal, within the rules, is if Crystal is multiclassed into something like Fighter for four levels, because we know that she's the same level as Haley.

Of course, the Giant could have either said "screw the rules" and had it work, or he could have said "naked in their home not expecting anything means Sneak Attack works regardless of level," which I would be fine with personally. In combat or on adventures when you're expecting it, Uncanny Dodge should be active, even a Rogue or Assassin can't be on guard all the time.

[Kaytara]

I agree that the action was reasonable. Crystal has not only attempted to kill Haley in the past, she has made it clear that she will keep on trying.

If Haley had skipped town and left Crystal alive, Crystal would have gone after her immediately. Sure, Vaarsuvius was teleporting them away, but then it's just a matter of having the Arcane Trickster scry for Haley's location and then hiring one of the wizard's in the Guild's pocket to teleport Crystal there. And even if the Cloister is still active on Haley now, it won't be forever and the Guild has reason to keep trying, since they're counting on Haley to finance the Resurrections. Heck, with the likelihood of Bozzak raising Crystal as soon as he finds out, I'm surprised Haley didn't fetch Vaarsuvius and ask him to give Crystal the Kubota treatment. (And yeah, she doesn't know about that yet, but it's obvious that the wizard can destroy an enemy's body if necessary.)

However, I also agree with the OP that the action was still rather chilling. It wasn't frantic self-defence on Haley's part, no... She found out that they would be teleporting out, and then she actually thought "Okay, here is my chance. Crystal is in the shower. I really have to go and kill her before we leave." And then she walked down the hall with the explicit intention to walk in in Crystal and shoot her full of arrows, all the while thinking about how she would do it.

For someone who delighted in helping helpless farmers and protested against using Soul Bind to remove the threat of a dangerous enemy, this does seem rather shocking. However, I do not think it inconsistent, merely a side of Haley we haven't been seeing much of, except for the "I'm Chaotic Good! Ish!" part of her gibberish.

EDIT: As for Celia, true, she's naive, but other characters have fallen victim to Haley's maxed Bluff skill before, including Roy on multiple occasions (such as "Shh! I'm trying to make a Forgery skill check here" and "Feminine products"). And Roy's anything but naive. So while it's consistent with Celia's naivete, it may be saying more about Haley than it does about Celia. And Belkar just gets a bonus to his roll because he knows Haley so well. :smallamused:

[Snake-Aes]

As for the method, totally in line. Haley is Chaotic, so she see's nothing wrong with fighting in a situation most advantageous to herself. From a lawful perspective, attacking Crystal in the shower without her magic items is bad and unhonorable. From a Chaotic perspective, it's merely efficient.

Orderly characters do not automatically feel bad about being sneaky and treacherous. An example of this is Roy's tactics from comic 1 to this day.

[King of Nowhere]

Does that make brutally killing and robbing her while she is naked and defenseless in her bedroom an act that isn't vile? And she seems downright pleased with herself too.

I see it from another perspective. Someone has to be killed, or has not to be killed. If someone has to be killed, and Crystal definitely qualifies, one way or the other don't matter. If it's best to kill her, then it's best to make sure to have the certainty to kill. Fair fight is for sport. If the police wants to get a criminal, they go in ten against one, and try to get him while he is defensless.
That said, maybe she shouldn't have enjoied it that much. Ok, Crystal is a loathsome assassin, and is ok the be happy she died, but Haley is happy for personal reasons, because Crystal was her nemesis, not for the other reasons. That's the only thing I disagree in Haley's behaviour.
In fact, I was quite disappointed when it seemed the guild got off without paying.

On a last note, Crystal is likely to be resurrected, so she only lost her items and a level. Enough to make her not a trouble for Haley anymore.

[puddingpie]

Even though Haley could've teleported halfway around the world, making Crystal not anything near an immediate threat, you could argue killing Crystal was intelligent, pragmatic, and necessary. But it was still wrong.

I think you can do the right thing for the wrong reasons and in the wrong ways. It would be silly to suggest Haley face Crystal in a fair fight, especially since Crystal has a history of trying to kill her, overpowered her in their last fight, and Haley is a rogue. But was it necessary to crack jokes as she attacked? To humiliate her before killing her? Was it necessary to enjoy it that much?

Also, her motives.. she wasn't doing it to keep Crystal away from Elan and herself. That might actually be noble. She wasn't doing it to make Greysky City a better place or for the sake of Crystal's future victims. She wasn't doing it to strike at the Guild. She wasn't doing it to keep the Guild from interfering with her quest to find her dad. She was doing it because she liked killing. And there's something very wrong with that.

Also, (maybe it's a visceral reaction because I'm a woman) the idea of being attacked in the shower fills me with a horror that other similar situations doesn't. Stab Crystal in her sleep, jump her walking down a back alley, kill her taking a crap, poison her food, stick a poisoned needle in her chair or brush poison dust on her clothes, that's fair game in Haley's grim world. Do what you have to do. But stabbing her to death naked in the shower. Man, I can't handle that. The only worse place to be jumped is probably church or something. It's incredibly irrational. I don't think men will understand it, any more than I can understand their pain on being kicked in the nuts.

[SoC175]

It certainly was evil, but it felt damn good reading it.

[JJ48]

And even if the Cloister is still active on Haley now, it won't be forever and the Guild has reason to keep trying, since they're counting on Haley to finance the Resurrections.

Not to mention, that Cloister isn't in effect on Elan, V, or Durkon. All it would take would be for the Guild to even TRY scrying one of Haley's companions, and they'd succeed.

As for her enjoying the killing, part of it may have been a "heat of the moment" thing, since Haley knew they were leaving quickly, she hastily formed this plan, and her moral compass didn't really have the opportunity to affect her. Maybe she'll feel bad about it later, when she's had the time to really think about it.

[LurkerInPlayground]

I see it from another perspective. Someone has to be killed, or has not to be killed. If someone has to be killed, and Crystal definitely qualifies, one way or the other don't matter. If it's best to kill her, then it's best to make sure to have the certainty to kill. Fair fight is for sport. If the police wants to get a criminal, they go in ten against one, and try to get him while he is defensless.
That said, maybe she shouldn't have enjoied it that much. Ok, Crystal is a loathsome assassin, and is ok the be happy she died, but Haley is happy for personal reasons, because Crystal was her nemesis, not for the other reasons. That's the only thing I disagree in Haley's behaviour.
In fact, I was quite disappointed when it seemed the guild got off without paying.
On the other hand, Belkar's self-satisfied smirk makes the whole situation that much funnier. Corruption for the win.

If there's one character-flaw that Haley possesses, it's that she thinks like a rogue. Backstab before you are backstabbed. Premeditated assault? What's that?

[Kaytara]

Also, (maybe it's a visceral reaction because I'm a woman) the idea of being attacked in the shower fills me with a horror that other similar situations doesn't. Stab Crystal in her sleep, jump her walking down a back alley, kill her taking a crap, poison her food, stick a poisoned needle in her chair or brush poison dust on her clothes, that's fair game in Haley's grim world. Do what you have to do. But stabbing her to death naked in the shower. Man, I can't handle that. The only worse place to be jumped is probably church or something. It's incredibly irrational. I don't think men will understand it, any more than I can understand their pain on being kicked in the nuts.

I think it may be something like "poetic justice"/irony from Haley's perspective, because in this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0608.html) comic Crystal mocks Haley for hiding in the bathroom and boasts how it won't protect her.

[Coldwin]

Also, (maybe it's a visceral reaction because I'm a woman) the idea of being attacked in the shower fills me with a horror that other similar situations doesn't. Stab Crystal in her sleep, jump her walking down a back alley, kill her taking a crap, poison her food, stick a poisoned needle in her chair or brush poison dust on her clothes, that's fair game in Haley's grim world. Do what you have to do. But stabbing her to death naked in the shower. Man, I can't handle that. The only worse place to be jumped is probably church or something. It's incredibly irrational. I don't think men will understand it, any more than I can understand their pain on being kicked in the nuts.

Aside from the fact that dead is dead...

Haley didn't kill her in the shower. She knocked polity at the door, it was Crystal's descion to answered the door in a towel. She could have said hold on, gotten dressed etc.

[LurkerInPlayground]

Even though Haley could've teleported halfway around the world, making Crystal not anything near an immediate threat, you could argue killing Crystal was intelligent, pragmatic, and necessary. But it was still wrong.

I think you can do the right thing for the wrong reasons and in the wrong ways. It would be silly to suggest Haley face Crystal in a fair fight, especially since Crystal has a history of trying to kill her, overpowered her in their last fight, and Haley is a rogue. But was it necessary to crack jokes as she attacked? To humiliate her before killing her? Was it necessary to enjoy it that much?

Also, her motives.. she wasn't doing it to keep Crystal away from Elan and herself. That might actually be noble. She wasn't doing it to make Greysky City a better place or for the sake of Crystal's future victims. She wasn't doing it to strike at the Guild. She wasn't doing it to keep the Guild from interfering with her quest to find her dad. She was doing it because she liked killing. And there's something very wrong with that.

Also, (maybe it's a visceral reaction because I'm a woman) the idea of being attacked in the shower fills me with a horror that other similar situations doesn't. Stab Crystal in her sleep, jump her walking down a back alley, kill her taking a crap, poison her food, stick a poisoned needle in her chair or brush poison dust on her clothes, that's fair game in Haley's grim world. Do what you have to do. But stabbing her to death naked in the shower. Man, I can't handle that. The only worse place to be jumped is probably church or something. It's incredibly irrational. I don't think men will understand it, any more than I can understand their pain on being kicked in the nuts.
To quote Marlon Brando in Apocalypse Now:
"The horror . . . the horror . . ."

Frankly, I think being killed on the toilet is way worse. Since the only conceivable way you can fight back is by pretty much soiling youself while stumbling around with your pants around your legs.

[Lunaya]

Personally, I cheered for Haley the whole way with this update. The only thing that would have made it more satisfying would be if Haley had shoved Celia's face in the truth. After all, what's the ditz gonna do about it?

Haley is Chaotic. She plays by her own rules. That's part of what I like about her.

[Alex Warlorn]

I have to agree this really showed a new side of Haley, a really ugly side.

Crystal was no threat to her. She wanted to rob Crystal and tell her that Haley was out of the guild FOR REAL this time? Sure, fits with her personality.

But they were about to teleport a quarter way around the world and across an ocean! There was no way that the thieves guild would have the resources to follow them, let alone into the territory of the next major baddie they'll likely be facing.

Everything felt in character for Haley up until she killed Crystal. What has Crystal done to Haley besides a bad hair cut? (I said done, not tried to do.)

Haley went back with the precise intent of killing Crystal and did so when she realized they'd be leaving the guild for major parts unknown (effectively being put on a bus away from the stage of this dark and dreary city). And that feels like an evil aligned act.

Belkar's brain is chemically unable to comprehend the people around him as people. V current has two VERY BAD new best friends blabbing endlessly at him. What's Haley's excuse?

If it was a combat situation or in the middle of a battle or she was STILL on the run from the guild (rather than about to START running again) I could understand. Also, if they were FIGHTING their way out of the thieves guild and Haley saw a chance to take her out I could figure.
But Haley crossed a line.

AND IN ADDITION: As it stands now. The Guild will think:

'Awwww. Look at that. Haley's all grown up.' Now that Haley took out her hated rival in the middle of the guild and stole her stuff. If she had left Crystal ALIVE to deliver her message there would have been no room for misunderstandings. At this point they'll just think Haley killed Crystal for saying the wrong thing at the wrong time and wanted that dealt with before leaving. Her message to the guild is utterly undelivered.

[LurkerInPlayground]

What has Crystal done to Haley besides a bad hair cut? (I said done, not tried to do.)
Physically assault Haley?

I don't understand the separation between action and intent here. Crystal already made it clear that she will try to kill Haley if the opportunity arose and always will

[dps]

Even though Haley could've teleported halfway around the world, making Crystal not anything near an immediate threat, you could argue killing Crystal was intelligent, pragmatic, and necessary. But it was still wrong.

A decision can be completely intelligent and pragmatic and still be morally wrong. Which is not to say that that you have to make stupid and impractical decisions in order to be morally good; rather, the intelligence and practicallity of a decision are seperate from the moralitly of the decision.

And I agree that what Haley did was an intelligent and pragmatic solution to her problems with Crystal and the Guild--though not the only intelligent and pragmatic solutions available to her, and perhaps not the smartest and most practical possibilities.

Unlike the intelligence and practicallity of a decision, I think that necessity can have a bearing on the morality of a choice. And I don't think that what Haley did was strictly necessary.


I think you can do the right thing for the wrong reasons and in the wrong ways. It would be silly to suggest Haley face Crystal in a fair fight, especially since Crystal has a history of trying to kill her, overpowered her in their last fight, and Haley is a rogue. But was it necessary to crack jokes as she attacked? To humiliate her before killing her? Was it necessary to enjoy it that much?

Also, her motives.. she wasn't doing it to keep Crystal away from Elan and herself. That might actually be noble. She wasn't doing it to make Greysky City a better place or for the sake of Crystal's future victims. She wasn't doing it to strike at the Guild. She wasn't doing it to keep the Guild from interfering with her quest to find her dad. She was doing it because she liked killing. And there's something very wrong with that.

I mostly agree with this section, though I will point out that while the comic does IMO make it clear that she enjoyed what killing Crystal (though not that she necessarily enjoys killing per se), I have to confess that her motives aren't so clear--but my inferences as to her motive match yours, at least in part because she did enjoy it so much.


Also, (maybe it's a visceral reaction because I'm a woman) the idea of being attacked in the shower fills me with a horror that other similar situations doesn't. Stab Crystal in her sleep, jump her walking down a back alley, kill her taking a crap, poison her food, stick a poisoned needle in her chair or brush poison dust on her clothes, that's fair game in Haley's grim world. Do what you have to do. But stabbing her to death naked in the shower. Man, I can't handle that. The only worse place to be jumped is probably church or something. It's incredibly irrational. I don't think men will understand it, any more than I can understand their pain on being kicked in the nuts.

Speaking as a guy, I don't think I'd like to be murdered in the shower, either. But I think I'd rather be attacked there than while taking a crap.

Also, my understanding is, that while there aren't the same obvious vulnerable targets, getting kicked in the groin is a pretty unpleasant experience for females, too.

[Rogue 7]

It bugs me that people are arguing that this is supposed to be a pragmatic, good resolution for Haley. Let's look at where the situation was heading. Haley's teleporting away across an ocean to a place where it's been almost impossible to find information on. It'd take Crystal a long, long time to get there, since it's extremely unlikely the Guild would be able to find a teleporter that could even get to the Western Continent. She's going to be travelling with a high-level elven wizard who's proven himself capable of excessive brutality, a psychotic evil halfling who's already proven he can school Crystal six ways from Sunday in a fight, a high-level fighter wielding a ridiculously effective greatsword, a bard who's become quite effective, a high-level dwarven cleric, and Haley's got her new bow. Couple that with the fact that the only other possible threat to Haley might be Bozzok, and I'd highly doubt at all that the guild would be stupid enough to attack the Order of the Stick. To justify Crystal as an immediate threat worthy of murder is spurious at best. And besides, even if she isn't an immediate threat, good characters are supposed to be better than that. With her general disdain for Belkar and extensive involvement in the Azure City resistance, I had thought that Haley was more moral than this. It's a pragmatic, rational act in the sense that it eliminates a possible threat. That means diddly squat to alignment if you ask me.

And the argument "she was planning on killing Haley later" doesn't hold water. That's a reason to sleep with one eye open or set a trap for when she attacks, not attack her first. There is a large burden of proof on the attacker to come off as morally correct, and "they said they were going to kill me" isn't a reason. Unless you could prove an immediate threat (as in, the moment she got out of the shower she was going to go kill Haley), it doesn't fit my standards.

[Dagren]

For uncanny dodge, Assassins get both the normal version and the improved version. So if their level doesn't stack with Rogues' for uncanny dodge levels, something's very weird. The only possibility for Haley to actually have Sneak Attacked Crystal, within the rules, is if Crystal is multiclassed into something like Fighter for four levels, because we know that she's the same level as Haley.Still wouldn't matter. The 4 levels thing is for Improved Uncanny Dodge, the regular one doesn't mention anything about high level characters being able to defeat it.


Of course, the Giant could have either said "screw the rules" and had it work, or he could have said "naked in their home not expecting anything means Sneak Attack works regardless of level," which I would be fine with personally. In combat or on adventures when you're expecting it, Uncanny Dodge should be active, even a Rogue or Assassin can't be on guard all the time.Sure he could, that's what GM Fiat is all about. Still, that's what Uncanny Dodge is for, it doesn't apply in combat, only when you're not on guard. So saying it should only work in combat is a silly answer.

[EENick]

I think in some ways this is more about Roy or rather this is in part an effect of his absence in the group. They seem to have been building up on this for a while. V leaving then making a deal with evil as well as Haley first getting ready to ditch Belkar and now going cold blooded I'd argue are suppose to illustrate, in part, what Order is like minus Roy.

Roy helped keep the order together and helped guild its members in a way. Much as he pointed out when discussing Belkar in heaven. I think Roy is going to be back pretty soon (we know there is a resurection scroll ready to do the job as the fiends pointed out)and is going to have have a difficult time reintegrating with the group because of what's happened to them while he was gone.

We're probably lucky Durkon isn't eating baby animals by now. :smalltongue:

[Xiander]

I have a curiousity question: If Roy was to finally catch up with Xykon and manage to corner him at a point where xykon had expended his daily spell allowance, how many would be shocked to see roy hack the lich into tiny pieces and obliterate his phylactery whith that shiny sword of his?

I am aware that the situations are not the same, but i believe they hold enough simularities to shed some light over some of the issue here.

[yellowmonkal]

What did she do different to any other time?:smallconfused:

[EENick]

I have a curiousity question: If Roy was to finally catch up with Xykon and manage to corner him at a point where xykon had expended his daily spell allowance, how many would be shocked to see roy hack the lich into tiny pieces and obliterate his phylactery whith that shiny sword of his?

I am aware that the situations are not the same, but i believe they hold enough simularities to shed some light over some of the issue here.

We already know he and by proxy the rest of the guild spared the Liniar Guild when he had the chance to kill them after a fight, the same with the Bandit leaders and Miko so really we don't have to speculate we know how Roy acts in these situations. Heck Elan spared the guy who killed the ninja at the height of his rage and he is chaotic good! Destroying a relentless undead killing machine after an extended battle isn't even close.

A better question would we be if Red Cloak came under a flag of truce to speak to the PCs in established at least temporary good faith and one of them killed the hell out of him instead. Before the war I think we would have shocked if anyone but Belkar had even suggested it. Certainly we would have been shocked if Roy had acted that way.


What did she do different to any other time?
She spared Sabine in the past after the Order defeated them in the hotel. Haley certainly had reason to hate her almost as much even if they had a shorter history so clearly this is a change for her.

[homeosapiens]

this could be explained by Crystal not being a pure Rogue/assasin, personaly i have allways belived she had some fighter levels as well.
That would be good, since i see no way rogue/assasin could survive 36d6+4d8 +20 dmg while beeing damaged.

From my understanding, Uncanny Dodge doesn't care about what the rogue level differences are between targets. If you have the skill (which Crystal does if she has more than 4 levels of Rogue or 2 levels of Assassin - which is almost guaranteed unless she's like a Fighter 11/Rogue 3/Assassin 1 or something) then you simply cannot be denied your Dex bonus when flat footed. Ergo, you cannot be sneak attacked.
That would explain how did she survived this massive damage from 4x sneak attack.


Yes. Yes it does. Somebody tries to kill you, fails, and makes it quite clear that they'll attempt to do so again at the earliest opportunity, and you're saying it's not OK to kill them before they can try again? You deserve it if you DON'T.

The robbing part? Did you forget that that Haley was a member of a Thieves's Guild? Y'know, a group of people who exist for the sole purpose of stealing stuff? Now, that may not a be a "good" act, but it's totally and completely in character.

Finally, fair fight? Oh, she was naked and defenseless? If you HAVE to kill somebody, that's the best time. Fair fights are for people who aren't going to survive for very long - use every possible advantage you can get. I can assure you that nobody who's been in more than one real, life-or-death fight wants to make their next one "fair" - they want it as heavily-weighted in their favor as possible.

Good for Haley.
+1
She is a thief, she cares about wealth, and she has really good reason for that. I would kill some murderer without thinking twice if it was on the way to free my loved one - by those people thinking Michael Scoffield should rot in hell. And fair fighting? Please...


Crystal has proven quite incompetent at killing Haley without help, and they were about to teleport very far away. Its very unlikely she would have been a threat to her or the party any time soon.

And by your reasoning, anyone you know for a fact would want to kill you if they were given the opportunity, is acceptable to kill regardless of the circumstances. Passing by an evil orc barbarian sitting down having a meal with his family? Stick an arrow in him while he's tucking his kids into bed - he'd kill you if he knew you were there. Oh and kill the kids too - they'd probably want to kill you too now if they could.

I've never been in a real life or death fight, but what I'd want is to avoid one at all costs. Teleporting far away sounds like it'd work pretty good.

She delighted in committing cold blooded murder, whether that person is a killer that wanted to kill her or not. From a character I once thought of as a decent person, its disheartening.
1. DnD=/= real life. You kill goblins (which are intelligent creatures) just becouse they are goblins, the same you do with evil - you do that for exp and money and even paladins do that. We are not talking about Earth's Right/Wrong, we are talking about 100% different case.

2. I didnt see any kids in there. Those two situations have nothing in common. And yet still killing kids not evil - paladins go to kill come colour dragons kids and then they take pride in it. Same might be with evil orc barbarian children who already are depraved and eat human flesh.

3.Getting Exp, loot and punishing the bad guy seems better to me. You cannot notice that Crystal will be raised and this so called "murder" has 100% different meaning then in our world.

4.She is delighted, cause this is very good for her, and i would be delighted to if i played her. She is CG, not LG. Shes greedy and thats one of her most exposed qualities.

Agreeing with killer angel.

Possibly Sword alrdy told some of that, but nvm.


It bugs me that people are arguing that this is supposed to be a pragmatic, good resolution for Haley. Let's look at where the situation was heading. Haley's teleporting away across an ocean to a place where it's been almost impossible to find information on. It'd take Crystal a long, long time to get there, since it's extremely unlikely the Guild would be able to find a teleporter that could even get to the Western Continent. She's going to be travelling with a high-level elven wizard who's proven himself capable of excessive brutality, a psychotic evil halfling who's already proven he can school Crystal six ways from Sunday in a fight, a high-level fighter wielding a ridiculously effective greatsword, a bard who's become quite effective, a high-level dwarven cleric, and Haley's got her new bow. Couple that with the fact that the only other possible threat to Haley might be Bozzok, and I'd highly doubt at all that the guild would be stupid enough to attack the Order of the Stick. To justify Crystal as an immediate threat worthy of murder is spurious at best. And besides, even if she isn't an immediate threat, good characters are supposed to be better than that. With her general disdain for Belkar and extensive involvement in the Azure City resistance, I had thought that Haley was more moral than this. It's a pragmatic, rational act in the sense that it eliminates a possible threat. That means diddly squat to alignment if you ask me.

And the argument "she was planning on killing Haley later" doesn't hold water. That's a reason to sleep with one eye open or set a trap for when she attacks, not attack her first. There is a large burden of proof on the attacker to come off as morally correct, and "they said they were going to kill me" isn't a reason. Unless you could prove an immediate threat (as in, the moment she got out of the shower she was going to go kill Haley), it doesn't fit my standards.
Yet if poland attacked Germany in 1936 with France like Piłsudski wanted to, there would be much different world right now, and i would gladly accept the cost of beeing the aggesive force - "prevention" is always better. Even your dentist can tell you that. And how would it be morally better? Crystal could do something real villiany to Haley, like hire someone to cast soulbind from scroll, while now she might remain intimidated and not interfere with Haley's "world savin' " bussiness(Polish soldiers wouldnt kill German civilians, jews,jipsies, homosexuals, and wouldnt conquer half europe, and even wouldnt occupy Germany).

Well that was long and a bit history based... Not interested dont have to read. Main point was Good defeating evil is better then the opposite.

[Fuzzypaws]

First, re killing Crystal. Yes, it's somewhat squicky the way it was done. It was also totally justified. People bawwing about how the guild would have to cross an ocean and it's not feasible etc are missing that the guild leaders are almost the same level as the OotS (Crystal herself actually was Haley's level), and have fairly substantial financial resources to boot. With the Use Magic Device skill at that level and all the money at the guild's disposal, it would trivial to buy a scroll of Teleportation Circle and use it to move a lot of people to the other continent, or alternately to just find a wizard and threaten / pay him 1530 gp to cast the spell. The guild would wait until the party was split up again, or encamped and mostly asleep, or weakened by another fight and then jump the group. The OotS is not bound by rigid, unrealistic codes of Solamnic knightly honor that require them to intentionally gimp themselves and make themselves vulnerable to assassination. Given Haley's history with the guild and Crystal in particular, it is entirely reasonable to send a message in this way.

Second, re uncanny dodge. Yes, technically, if Crystal has 4 levels of Rogue instead of just 3 with a bunch of fighter levels, Haley should not have been able to sneak attack her without some custom feat or magic item. However, uncanny dodge is strictly better than so-called "improved" uncanny dodge in every conceivable way. And speaking as a DM who does a lot of house rules, I have always switched the two abilities, so that immunity to flanking is what you get with uncanny dodge and retaining your dex bonus is what you get with improved uncanny dodge. It would not surprise me if Rich used similar house rules.

[Krouv]

I don't understand those who talk about pragmatism. Haley clearly did this because she hates Crystal. Have a look at the title of the strip; there's nothing in this act but pure revenge.

[Silverraptor]

I don't understand those who talk about pragmatism. Haley clearly did this because she hates Crystal. Have a look at the title of the strip; there's nothing in this act but pure revenge.

Pure revenge and opportunity. Not only was she killing Crystal, but she scored a +4 magic dagger and some magical earings. And now she doesn't have to owe the Evil (Yes Evil) Thieves guild anything anymore because she's hitching a ride on V's teleportation taxi service. That's how I interpreted what Haley did as opportunity and revenge all wrapped up in one.

[Ladorak]

OMG! Haley killed someone!

This has never happened before. Seriously, read the whole webcomic, she's never ever ever done that before

Haley took her by suprise! Not a fair fight!

The hell do you think a sneak attack is?

She's going to the Western Continent

Yes, and I'm sure when Crystal kills her 5 years (Maybe as she's about to rescue her father) from now at the first oppatunity presented to her it will come of great comfort to poor dead Haley that Crystal couldn't get to her to do it sooner.

She killed her!

Really not a big problem in D&D f you have cash to spare

She enjoyed it too much

... Yeah alright, I'll give you that one.

[Reisender]

Yet if poland attacked Germany in 1936 with France like Piłsudski wanted to, there would be much different world right now, and i would gladly accept the cost of beeing the aggesive force - "prevention" is always better. Even your dentist can tell you that. And how would it be morally better? Crystal could do something real villiany to Haley, like hire someone to cast soulbind from scroll, while now she might remain intimidated and not interfere with Haley's "world savin' " bussiness(Polish soldiers wouldnt kill German civilians, jews,jipsies, homosexuals, and wouldnt conquer half europe, and even wouldnt occupy Germany).

Well that was long and a bit history based... Not interested dont have to read. Main point was Good defeating evil is better then the opposite.
This kind of reasoning led to the doctrine of "preemptive warfare" and we all now how that worked out.

PS: What leads you to believe polish soldiers would'nt have occupied Germany?

[chiasaur11]

It bugs me that people are arguing that this is supposed to be a pragmatic, good resolution for Haley. Let's look at where the situation was heading. Haley's teleporting away across an ocean to a place where it's been almost impossible to find information on. It'd take Crystal a long, long time to get there, since it's extremely unlikely the Guild would be able to find a teleporter that could even get to the Western Continent. She's going to be travelling with a high-level elven wizard who's proven himself capable of excessive brutality, a psychotic evil halfling who's already proven he can school Crystal six ways from Sunday in a fight, a high-level fighter wielding a ridiculously effective greatsword, a bard who's become quite effective, a high-level dwarven cleric, and Haley's got her new bow. Couple that with the fact that the only other possible threat to Haley might be Bozzok, and I'd highly doubt at all that the guild would be stupid enough to attack the Order of the Stick. To justify Crystal as an immediate threat worthy of murder is spurious at best. And besides, even if she isn't an immediate threat, good characters are supposed to be better than that. With her general disdain for Belkar and extensive involvement in the Azure City resistance, I had thought that Haley was more moral than this. It's a pragmatic, rational act in the sense that it eliminates a possible threat. That means diddly squat to alignment if you ask me.

And the argument "she was planning on killing Haley later" doesn't hold water. That's a reason to sleep with one eye open or set a trap for when she attacks, not attack her first. There is a large burden of proof on the attacker to come off as morally correct, and "they said they were going to kill me" isn't a reason. Unless you could prove an immediate threat (as in, the moment she got out of the shower she was going to go kill Haley), it doesn't fit my standards.

Agreed.

For me, the real nasty bit is she did that while under a truce. I mean, sure, you both trying to kill each other, do it fast, do it smart.

But breaking a truce by murdering someone in cold blood? Jerk move even at the best of times.

[Da'Shain]

Still wouldn't matter. The 4 levels thing is for Improved Uncanny Dodge, the regular one doesn't mention anything about high level characters being able to defeat it.That's right, although rather stupid, IMO. Why should high level characters be able to defeat the improved version but not the normal version? I'd definitely rule that the normal version can also be defeated the same way.

The likelihood is that Crystal has improved, though, being level ~14/15. Unless she has >6 levels in a non-rogue-based class (scratch that, 7, because she could have had improved uncanny dodge by level 7 by going Rogue 5/Assassin 2), she's got the improved version.


Sure he could, that's what GM Fiat is all about. Still, that's what Uncanny Dodge is for, it doesn't apply in combat, only when you're not on guard. So saying it should only work in combat is a silly answer.I wasn't saying it should only work in combat, I was saying that having just gotten out of the shower naked in your home and answering the door while obviously not expecting any sort of trouble would put you at a far lower state of alertness than anytime on a mission or adventure, and as such I would rule that you could be Sneak Attacked in a surprise round despite Uncanny Dodge in such a disadvantaged situation.

Crystal was being stupid (as she is wont to do), and I'd have ruled that her stupidity forfeited her the benefit of her ability.

[Souju]

We're forgetting that death is "cheap" in the OotS 'verse here people.
Bozzok and the thieves' guild are incredibly persistent, and would be MORE than willing to do even worse things to Haley at some point. Crystal is Haley's rival and thus her very existence is not just a detriment now, but would continue to be one further down the line.
In Haley's mind, if she let Crystal live, in order to accomplish her ultimate goal, she would more than likely have to kill her anyway. Killing her now accomplishes two goals:
1) Taking her out of the picture
2) Hindering Bozzok even further (either he's without someone who will always be the same level as Haley, or he's out the diamonds needed to rez her.)
3) Making an example out of her: Haley isn't messing around, and Bozzok would lose more valuable resources chasing after her than he would just letting her go.

Was it a Good act? No.
Was it an Evil act? Hmmm maybe...
Was it a Neutral act? Sure.
Haley is Chaotic Good, which from what I understand means she'll employ whatever means to ensure the greater good. Having the Thieves' Guild looking over your shoulder while you're trying to save the world is counterproductive.
:haley: Okay guys, through this door is our ultimate goal! The climax of the story! Finally, after all these years, we can get to the ultimate showdown with X!
Thieves' Guild Dude: Just a minute! We need our cut from the Hoard of Extremely Awesome Doo-hickeys.
:haley: NOW?!
TGD: Well, if you die in the next encounter, we can't collect, so...

[Kaytara]

Haley's teleporting away across an ocean to a place where it's been almost impossible to find information on. It'd take Crystal a long, long time to get there, since it's extremely unlikely the Guild would be able to find a teleporter that could even get to the Western Continent.
Why is that unlikely? The Guild is the number one power in the city. They control all the clerics, including those powerful enough to cast Resurrection. There is every reason to assume that they are equally well-off concerning wizards, as well. As soon as Haley is gone, getting back on her trail is as simple as scrying and teleporting to her location.
And what do you mean, impossible to find information on? The Thieves wouldn't be looking for the location, they'd be looking for Haley, which is much simpler. Even if Girard placed an anti-scrying spell on the whole place, Haley won't be there for long, so that means she'll be vulnerable every moment of her life that she's not standing beneath a magical anti-scrying umbrella. Don't forget that the reason the Thieves didn't give Haley any trouble before this was because they chose not to, since Haley exiled herself.


She's going to be travelling with a high-level elven wizard who's proven himself capable of excessive brutality, a psychotic evil halfling who's already proven he can school Crystal six ways from Sunday in a fight, a high-level fighter wielding a ridiculously effective greatsword, a bard who's become quite effective, a high-level dwarven cleric, and Haley's got her new bow.
...And none of them have Spot checks worth a damn, and Crystal specializes in stealth. Besides, as Fuzzypaws pointed out, it could just be the simple matter of waiting until the group became injured and out of spells (they'd be fighting dangerous enemies, remember?) and attacking when they're at their weakest.


And besides, even if she isn't an immediate threat, good characters are supposed to be better than that.
Keep in mind that this moral standard comes from real life, where pursuing someone isn't quite as ridiculously easy as it is in DnD. Escaping from the Guild without killing Crystal isn't like refusing to kill the serial murderer whom you, as a cop, have captured. It's more like refusing to kill him and then handing him your address and the keys to your house before leaving, while knowing that he will be released the next day.


And the argument "she was planning on killing Haley later" doesn't hold water. That's a reason to sleep with one eye open or set a trap for when she attacks, not attack her first. There is a large burden of proof on the attacker to come off as morally correct, and "they said they were going to kill me" isn't a reason. Unless you could prove an immediate threat (as in, the moment she got out of the shower she was going to go kill Haley), it doesn't fit my standards.
I am curious, why do you cling to immediacy so much? Crystal was dedicated to killing Haley. She was trying to kill Haley before. Right now she isn't trying to, but that's because the circumstances are against her, not because of any moral decision on her part, which is what you're treating it like.
And really, I think very few people would choose to sleep with one eye open for the rest of their lives in anticipation of an attack that they KNOW will come, rather than eliminate that threat once and for all when they have the chance and every reason in the world to do it.

[Estrosiath]

Jesus guys, grow a spine...

She just killed someone whose avowed goal was slaying her in the most brutal way possible ("jamming a barrel up her uterus"), who is 100% evil (she has assassin levels), and who has always hated her. Sure, taking care of it while she's under the shower isn't something a paladin would do.

But Haley is a rogue. I'm not even sure I'd qualify this as an evil act unless the character was blatantly good (not saying she is or isn't...), which IMO isn't the case. I'd say it was good thinking.

[homeosapiens]

1. Im Polish. Kinda figured how it would work based on history as a whole thing.
2. The plan was only about bringing reign in germany that wasnt obsesed with conquering and exterminating other nationalities as "lesser".
3. They might steal a little, but poles in general hate occupants and wouldnt dare to become ones.

[Tempeststurm]

Her character became more good and less neutral when travelling with Elan (shown in the strip with the dirt farmers). She has now been travelling with Belkar, who is obviously evil, and Celia, who's superior attitude has been irritating everyone on the forums. It's no surprise she's been slipping on the good axis.

It's certainly not a good act, but it's not out of character for Haley. Right down at the worst end of her character, but not out of character.

[Nekomata]

Also, (maybe it's a visceral reaction because I'm a woman) the idea of being attacked in the shower fills me with a horror that other similar situations doesn't. Stab Crystal in her sleep, jump her walking down a back alley, kill her taking a crap, poison her food, stick a poisoned needle in her chair or brush poison dust on her clothes, that's fair game in Haley's grim world. Do what you have to do. But stabbing her to death naked in the shower. Man, I can't handle that. The only worse place to be jumped is probably church or something. It's incredibly irrational. I don't think men will understand it, any more than I can understand their pain on being kicked in the nuts.
Well, speaking as a male, I'd rather get attacked in the shower than poisoned. At least I'd get a fighting chance.

And shower isn't the worst place to be attacked:

http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/521/macroparanoidknifeweapo.jpg

[Quorothorn]

I'm dismayed that some people would defend this as good and just and then turn around and say V's genocide is wrong. So killing one defenseless evil being you know personally is ok, but killing dozens of evil beings you don't know isn't? Killing people who aren't immediately threatening your life or the lives of others around you is cold and dishonorable. Enjoying it is reprehensible.

Well, I think they were both right. Haley more so than V, but still, I was rooting for both all the way.

P.S. And as Zevox, for one, pointed out, there is a legitimate difference between the two actions.

[Kaed]

It offends "delicate Western sensibilities", true.

That, in fact, is the entire reason this, and other resurfacings of this pointless arguement exist.

Applying the 'life is sacred, there is no excuse for murder' theorem to a setting that is not only medieval and thus has different standards of law, but one where death is by no means permanent is a ridiculous exercise of poor logic and squeamishness.

This comic is based on D&D (only based, I might add, for the people who are being rule sticklers). People die, monster-class creatures die, heck maybe even a few gods will die if the Snarl gets out again. Deal with the plot and stop whining. This is not a neat, orderly society that balks at the thought of killing someone off, especially in this particular city.

No one in Greyhawk City is going to care about the death of Crystal, and a few will probably rejoice. Bozzok may be irritated, though.

[Volkov]

Kill the entire thieves guild and all the MOBs and force them to eat their babies as they die!!!! And burn, loot, rape, pillage!!!! MUAHAAHAHAHAHHAHAHAAAA!!!

[Aimbot]

Yeah, attacking someone when they're helpless is a matter of dishonor, not evil. The end result is no different than if she had been fully armed. The ethics come in (in a setting where violence is common) with motivation and the morality of the victim. A helpless murderous sociopath is still a murderous sociopath. Haley's not a knight people, she's pretty much the opposite.

[Charmy]

As another example pointed out in the main comic thread, Nale is hanging on a precipice about to die, and yet Elan saved him.

There is NO utilitarian reason to do this. Nale is evil. Nale ran Elan through with a sword. Nale tried to kill Elan and will likely try to do it again.

It was an even EASIER decision for Elan because he didn't have to do anything to kill Nale, he could have just walked away.

That's why Elan is a virtuous person. He does what is just and noble, which is often not whats prudent and makes your life easier. Some people might call saving Nale a 'dumb' action since he comes back to attack the party later on and nearly kills the love of his life Haley as well. And yet AGAIN Nale is spared.

Clearly you can be D&D Good and slaughter helpless creatures by the dozens (see the Paladins in SoD). So I guess Elan isn't just "D&D Good" he's Saturday morning cartoon/superhero good. And that's why I love him.

I thought Haley would act similar to Elan when the chips are down. She should be better than this =/ I reiterate that I hope Elan gives her a serious wake up call for this act of sadism and revenge.

[Dienekes]

Well, that was decidedly evil Haley.

Great job!

[Scarlet Knight]

I, also, am disurbed by this comic; & not because Haley killed Crystal. Hey, she started as a wanted criminal & was getting too “goodish” and needed to balance back to neutral .

No, I’m disturbed because when Haley had Crystal naked & helpless, her latent bisexuality was supposed to take over.

What? It says so in the fanfic thread! Where was that? Oh, here it is… “Haley watched as the beads of water dripped down Crystal's golem scarred body…”

:smallbiggrin:

[Sholos]

Ok, let's actually take a look at the feats and abilities in question.

From the SRD:

Sneak Attack
The rogue’s attack deals extra damage any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and it increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter. Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied.
The important part is underlined. More on this later.

Uncanny Dodge (Rogue)
Starting at 4th level, a rogue can react to danger before her senses would normally allow her to do so. She retains her Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if she is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, she still loses her Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized.

If a rogue already has uncanny dodge from a different class she automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead.
The Assassin's Uncanny Dodge is basically the same, except replace the word "rogue" with "assassin", and it comes at 2nd level.
Again, important part underlined.

Improved Uncanny Dodge (Rogue)
A rogue of 8th level or higher can no longer be flanked.

This defense denies another rogue the ability to sneak attack the character by flanking her, unless the attacker has at least four more rogue levels than the target does.

If a character already has uncanny dodge from a second class, the character automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead, and the levels from the classes that grant uncanny dodge stack to determine the minimum rogue level required to flank the character.
Again, the Assassin's entry is virtually identical, and mentions that assassin levels stack with rogue levels (or that of any other class granting Uncanny Dodge, for that matter).
Important part underlined again.

So, to recap, the important things to consider are:

1) Sneak attacks happen any time a character would be denied their DEX bonus (such as being flat-footed), and also when they're flanked.
2) Uncanny Dodge lets a character retain their DEX bonus when caught flat-footed or against invisible people.
3) Improved Uncanny Dodge makes a character "immune" to flanking, and also to sneak attacks via flanking (unless the other character has enough rogue levels).

My conclusions:

Sneak attacks happen when a character would be denied their DEX bonus, not when/if they are denied it. Meaning that attacking a flat-footed person with Uncanny Dodge would still result in a Sneak Attack (you would just have a harder time hitting them). Improved Uncanny Dodge grants resistance to Sneak Attacks from flanking only, so you're still vulnerable to Sneak Attacks via being flat-footed.

Thus, Crystal almost certainly has Improved Uncanny Dodge (needing only a total of seven levels to do so), but was caught flat-footed by Haley's attack, and thus vulnerable to a Sneak Attack. Her max AC without equipment is what, 16? It's no wonder she got hit.

[Swordguy]

I, also, am disurbed by this comic; & not because Haley killed Crystal. Hey, she started as a wanted criminal & was getting too “goodish” and needed to balance back to neutral .

No, I’m disturbed because when Haley had Crystal naked & helpless, her latent bisexuality was supposed to take over.

What? It says so in the fanfic thread! Where was that? Oh, here it is… “Haley watched as the beads of water dripped down Crystal's golem scarred body…”

:smallbiggrin:


As far as I'm concerned, you just won the thread.

[Reisender]

1. Im Polish. Kinda figured how it would work based on history as a whole thing.
2. The plan was only about bringing reign in germany that wasnt obsesed with conquering and exterminating other nationalities as "lesser".
3. They might steal a little, but poles in general hate occupants and wouldnt dare to become ones.
Don't you think that's kind of a naive viewpoint there? "We're the good guys so we wouldn't resort to questionable deeds even when given the opportunity"?
This kind of black-and-white point of view is exactly what bothers me about the whole alignment discussion on the boards here. It's the naive and dangerous assumption that you're allowed to do almost everything as long as you manage to put the label "good" on your forehead.

[Snake-Aes]

I thought Haley would act similar to Elan when the chips are down. She should be better than this =/ I reiterate that I hope Elan gives her a serious wake up call for this act of sadism and revenge.

What is sadistic in how Haley killed Crystal? It was fairly quick and to the point, the sole goal being killing her and taking her stuff.

[Charmy]

What is sadistic in how Haley killed Crystal? It was fairly quick and to the point, the sole goal being killing her and taking her stuff.

Definition time:
Sadism is the derivation of pleasure as a result of inflicting pain or watching pain inflicted on others.

In other words, it was sadistic because she enjoyed it. Sadism is not synonymous with torture.

[Sholos]

Sadism is solely about the enjoyment of inflicting pain. Nothing says you have to do it slowly. So, what makes Haley's act possibly sadistic is the fact that she was obviously enjoying it. Note that that's only a possibility. There are other reasons why Haley could have enjoyed killing Crystal (some of them even somewhat likely).

[Swordguy]

What is sadistic in how Haley killed Crystal? It was fairly quick and to the point, the sole goal being killing her and taking her stuff.

People insist on judging everything by a modern, Western, "life is sacred" morality, and get butthurt when characters in a completely different circumstance don't live up to that.

It's not even a dominant morality in the modern world, and forget about it in anything resembling the medieval time period, but that doesn't stop people.

[Sholos]

People insist on judging everything by a modern, Western, "life is sacred" morality, and get butthurt when characters in a completely different circumstance don't live up to that.

It's not even a dominant morality in the modern world, and forget about it in anything resembling the medieval time period, but that doesn't stop people.

No, people simply look at where the definition of sadism is the enjoyment of inflicting pain, and then notice that Haley seemed to enjoy killing Crystal. A lot. It's not an unreasonable conclusion, except for the fact that Haley has never been ecstatic about killing anyone else (though she's never particularly been against it, either).

[Quorothorn]

I, also, am disurbed by this comic; & not because Haley killed Crystal. Hey, she started as a wanted criminal & was getting too “goodish” and needed to balance back to neutral .

No, I’m disturbed because when Haley had Crystal naked & helpless, her latent bisexuality was supposed to take over.

What? It says so in the fanfic thread! Where was that? Oh, here it is… “Haley watched as the beads of water dripped down Crystal's golem scarred body…”

:smallbiggrin:

Bravo, sir.

[Murdim]

Definition time:
Sadism is the derivation of pleasure as a result of inflicting pain or watching pain inflicted on others.

In other words, it was sadistic because she enjoyed it. Sadism is not synonymous with torture.:smallsigh:

While I agree Haley might have been a bit too enthusiastic about murdering Crystal regarding of her alignment's principles, calling it sadism is just. Plain. Wrong. She intended to kill her, and did it in two rounds and a half ; I don't see this as a proof she takes pleasure inflicting pain on her, i.e. sadism. She just wanted her to be dead, and enjoyed at it. That's cruelty and hate (more specifically, cruelty triggered by hate), but not sadism.

Besides, Haley's expression when coup de grâce-ing Crystal wasn't one of someone who likes to kill people ; she looks more angered about the Thieves' Guild and their future encounters, than raptured by the act of stabbing her nemesis.

[Snake-Aes]

People insist on judging everything by a modern, Western, "life is sacred" morality, and get butthurt when characters in a completely different circumstance don't live up to that.

It's not even a dominant morality in the modern world, and forget about it in anything resembling the medieval time period, but that doesn't stop people.

And you quoted me to say that because...?


I'm sorry, I don't see the sadism in what Haley did there. The whole "Take it, bitch" in the last slash was something you could call that, though.

[PId6]

Okay, to everybody that's saying "It's evil because she was committing murder." It's really not as serious as what we would associate with murder here in the real world. Haley knows that Crystal almost certainly would be resurrected by the Guild. After all, Crystal is one of the Guild's highest leveled members. Basically, "murder" in this case just amounts to stealing Crystal's items and leaving the Guild 5000gp short, which is a chaotic act, not evil. Haley's had ample provocation from Crystal as well so it's well within her character to seek revenge like that.

Sure, in the real world, preemptively killing someone like that would be a terrible crime; but in the DnD world, when the victim is guaranteed to be resurrected back, it's not much worse than knocking them out and stealing their stuff. Haley's obvious enjoyment in killing may be a strike against her but can you really blame her? As it stands, it's a chaotic neutral or maybe slightly evil act, not nearly to the same degree of evil as, say, V's dracocide or Belkar's rampages.

[Ellye]

The only thing that would have made it more satisfying would be if Haley had shoved Celia's face in the truth. After all, what's the ditz gonna do about it?That would be extremely satisfying to read. Even though I have a liking for the Lawful alignments, Celia is irritating.

[SlyGuyMcFly]

Definition time:
Sadism is the derivation of pleasure as a result of inflicting pain or watching pain inflicted on others.

In other words, it was sadistic because she enjoyed it. Sadism is not synonymous with torture.

Maybe. If Haley enjoyed killing Crystal because she was causing Crystal pain, then yes, it would be sadistic.

However, if Haley´s satisfaction stems from getting revenge on Crystal, as the comic´s title suggests, and seems more likely given what we know about Haley, it is not sadistic. While there is pain and enjoyment in the same scene, I don´t think they are cause and effect, respectively.

[Elan man]

go haley best move ever there arch enemys fo gods sake crystal is so stupid she should be dead by now

[Reisender]

People insist on judging everything by a modern, Western, "life is sacred" morality, and get butthurt when characters in a completely different circumstance don't live up to that.

It's not even a dominant morality in the modern world, and forget about it in anything resembling the medieval time period, but that doesn't stop people.
This morality is far from modern, it's at least about 2400 years old.
Mind you, all the more complex societies i am aware of frown upon vigilantism and do rightly so.

[PId6]

3. They might steal a little, but poles in general hate occupants and wouldnt dare to become ones.
Russo-Polish War - Poland was dissatisfied with Curzon Line as its border and so it invaded a weakened Russia (during Russian Civil War) in an attempt to gain more territory.

[Quorothorn]

Russo-Polish War - Poland was dissatisfied with Curzon Line as its border and so it invaded a weakened Russia (during Russian Civil War) in an attempt to gain more territory.

Poland(-Lithuania) also nearly took over Russia back in the Time of Troubles (about four hundred years ago). The Russo-Polish War was probably more of a defensive/reclamatory conflict on the part of the Poles, though.

[BillyJimBoBob]

Passing by an evil orc barbarian sitting down having a meal with his family? Stick an arrow in him while he's tucking his kids into bed - he'd kill you if he knew you were there. Oh and kill the kids too - they'd probably want to kill you too now if they could.That's a very good idea, and probably the best course of action.
If the Orc has demonstrated years of backstabbing and attempts to kill me, and I have the opportunity to END it, then yes. I'd kill him while he's tucking the kids into bed. Absolutely.Another really good idea. I'd kill the kids, too. They are evil humanoids and deserve death just for existing. Plus, it'll make the neighborhood safer for the rest of the non-evil humanoids, so I'll earn some points for the heroic self-sacrifice of my time, effort, and for putting myself in personal danger to rid the world of evil. Maybe I'll get more EXP. Oh, and I won't forget to loot the corpses, including the "cute 'lil kiddies" piggy banks.

[Zevox]

As another example pointed out in the main comic thread, Nale is hanging on a precipice about to die, and yet Elan saved him.

There is NO utilitarian reason to do this. Nale is evil. Nale ran Elan through with a sword. Nale tried to kill Elan and will likely try to do it again.

It was an even EASIER decision for Elan because he didn't have to do anything to kill Nale, he could have just walked away.

That's why Elan is a virtuous person. He does what is just and noble, which is often not whats prudent and makes your life easier.
Er, no. Elan saved Nale there because he's childish and naive - I mean, the rationale that convinced him to do it was "it would make mommy cry if he died." You don't get much more childish than that. He would have been no less good had he let him die there, and much trouble would have been saved later on. (Albeit we'd miss out on some great story and jokes, so we're fortunate he didn't in that regard.)


I thought Haley would act similar to Elan when the chips are down.
What ever would give you that idea? She's a thief, more intelligent than Elan, more mature than Elan, and less altruistic than Elan. She may share his alignment, but alignment is nothing but a broad category - many different personalities fit within each one, each of which will make different decisions in the same situation.


She should be better than this =/
Fortunately, she is instead more intelligent than Elan.


I reiterate that I hope Elan gives her a serious wake up call for this act of sadism and revenge.
He won't find out. And even if he did, odds are he'd react much as he did when V smoked Kubota but before he found out V wasn't aware of who Kubota was. Minor disappointment that the matter wasn't settled without bloodshed, but acknowledgment that she deserved what she got. He's become less foolish and idealistic since his solo side-adventure. He's done some growing up.

And seriously, sadism? That would require her to enjoy the act because it caused Crystal pain. I don't see how you get that out of it. She just killed her longtime rival, who shared a mutual hatred with her and had every intention of killing her. She doesn't have to be sadistic to take pleasure in knowing she's finally ended that particular problem. Much like Roy wouldn't have to be sadistic to be pleased at destroying Xykon, or O-Chul (or any other Azure City Paladin) wouldn't need to be sadistic to be pleased at killing Redcloak.

Zevox

[Mr. Scaly]

People insist on judging everything by a modern, Western, "life is sacred" morality, and get butthurt when characters in a completely different circumstance don't live up to that.

It's not even a dominant morality in the modern world, and forget about it in anything resembling the medieval time period, but that doesn't stop people.

Funny. I'm pretty sure that murder has been a crime punishable by death for thousands of years over most of the world. And when someone who has been a mostly good person suddenly commits a brutal murder it's bound to shock, appall, and hurt people who thought they knew them.

(Deliberately adds Haley's name to a list which also features Vaarsuvius and Belkar.)

[Murdim]

(Deliberately adds Haley's name to a list which also features Vaarsuvius and Belkar.)The Grand List of PCs whose alignment have been the subject of pointless disputes ?

[Puppeteer]

I think she was awesome in this one.

[SoC175]

My conclusions:
The "would" refers to characters with Dex <=11 who do not have a Dex bonus to be denied of

Meaning that attacking a flat-footed person with Uncanny Dodge would still result in a Sneak Attack
8 years of applied 3.x disagree with you.

Rules of the Game: All about Sneak Attacks (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040302a)
The uncanny dodge class ability is just about the nastiest sneak attack breaker in the game. Only immunity to critical hits offers more absolute protection against sneak attacks.

[Flickerdart]

First V, now Haley...the Linear Guild will have to go Good if this draws on.

[Zaruthustran]

In any D&D combat I've ever participated in--and I'm a 32 year-old who's been playing since 1st grade--the party has chosen to exploit every conceivable advantage before a fight starts. Haley is doing nothing more or less than using classic D&D tactics.

It's a rogue's version of "scry and fry". That's where the party wizard scries the location of the enemy, the party buffs up with augmentation and protection spells, and then teleports in to blast the enemy to smithereens. Ideally, while the enemy is on the chamber pot/sleeping/otherwise helpless.

She efficiently eliminated one of what V calls the Order's endless list of named villains. What's the big deal?

[Murdim]

First V, now Haley...the Linear Guild will have to go Good if this draws on.Immorality or not, I don't think this strip was intended to be a Big Important alignment shift / slippery slope / character development scene. The Giant seems not to see it as a "surprising", "revealing" or "mind-changing" action from Haley ; and actually, why do we matter about anything else ?

[Zaruthustran]

As for UD and sneak attack rules: irrelevant. Rich has stated time and time again that rules take a backseat to story. See the FAQ entry about traveling at the speed of plot.

If rules adherence is critical to your enjoyment, then just assume that in this instance the Dungeon Master Rule Zeroed that the confines of the towel eliminated her Dex bonus to AC. Or that the DM extended the "Feint in combat" use of Bluff to extend to ranged attacks.

But the bottom line is that it doesn't matter. This comic is certainly not an illustrated depiction of round-by-round by-the-rules D&D combat.

[Mr. Scaly]

The Grand List of PCs whose alignment have been the subject of pointless disputes ?

I was going to say my list of characters I loathe but that's true too actually.


Zaruthustran, the thing is we're not characters on a game board so we're not going to share the same morality as a typical adventurer party. That seems to be the crux of the discussion.

[Cracklord]

Personally I see this as not evil. Killing someone who is not a threat to you is evil, so V's famlicide was. Killing someone who is a threat and has stated their intentions clearly is not. The manner in which you kill them doesn't make a difference, until you start trying to make them suffer.
In point of fact, Crystal is far more evil then most of the monsters the order have encountered. Redcloak is the Moses of the goblins, and the black dragon wasn't actively engaged in pillaging or the like, as there was a very prosperous village on the edge of the forest. She should not get special dispensation just because she is human. That would be hypocritical.

[Stormthorn]

Stormthorn has something to say, and as he often displays questionable ethics he might know what he is talking about.


1: What Haley did was evil and unlawful*
2: Good characters (aside from some paladins) dont drop down to the next alignment for a single violation, just as evil characters are not redeemed by a single act of kindness. I wouldnt call Belkar anyhting other than CE desipte his not killing people recently. If anoyher 200 strips from now he is still acting the same, then his alignment will probably have shifted.
3: Thus, while she has betrayed the Good part of her alignment she maintains the Chaotic part and as long as she doesnt make it a trend she can stay Good.

It is my opinion that he actions, while constituting a nice What The Hell, Hero moment, are not so far out of bounds as to suggest anything is wrong with her.


*Its unlawful in that its murder and murder also tends towards an evil act. The fact that she seems to be enjoying it and that she did it for the sake of revenge against a nearly helpless opponent is what solidifies it as an evil act.

[PId6]

The Grand List of PCs whose alignment have been the subject of pointless disputes ?
Then you should probably add every other member of Oots in there. Oh, and take out the "P" from "PCs" and you can add in the Linear Guild, Miko, MitD, ABD, Redcloak, Xykon, the Oracle, that Owlbear that swallowed V, etc.

[Foryn Gilnith]

I read the first page and I was going to post.
The second and third pages sapped my will and faith in humanity.
The fourth page with Stormthorn finally convinced me that whatever point I had to make had already been made, and I could finally let loose of my pained body and become one with the Force.

[BRC]

Don't forget to put this into context. The Order are adventurers. One way to look at that, is they are Heroes who happen to profit financially from their heroism (You kill the Dragon because it's threatening the village, and it's not like it needs that gold anymore). Another way to look at it, is that they are people who professionally and without shame commit assault, murder, theft, armed robbery, breaking and entering, ect.

[Stormthorn]

I read the first page and I was going to post.
The second and third pages sapped my will and faith in humanity.
The fourth page with Stormthorn finally convinced me that whatever point I had to make had already been made, and I could finally let loose of my pained body and become one with the Force.


When i first read this i though he said painted rather than pained and i was picturing a nudist-jedi wearing only body paint.

What...?

[Vemynal]

the op is kidding right?

I *loved* this comic, Haley was simply marvelous and the writing was superb. Especially the play on words in her convo with Celia @ the end.

And killing ur hated rival when they are weak and defenseless? I don't really see the problem with that

[Blue Ghost]

I cannot believe what Haley just did. And I foresee that this will become a trend, somehow. I can't see such a callously evil act as just an anomaly. There will be serious repercussions, perhaps even dashing our hopes for a quick Roy raise.:smalleek:

[ForestCult4ever]

I like to think that, regardless of whether or not she's staying in town or getting teleported or whatever, that she'll never want to still be part of the thieves' guild. she tried to make that clear by doing it the rather non-violent way before, but since hank and celia made a "deal" that she never left, she had to actually PROVE it this time.

And more likely, Haley wants everyone to know that if you mess with her, you'll get burned. that's why i think she did let herself enjoy killing Crystal, because should Crystal get raised, she too will know that messing with Starshine isn't an easy thing, as Haley won't just agree to any terms that might leave her a sitting duck for the guild.

So, plainly said, it isn't just about the killing, it's about what the killing means. She's done with the guild, done with Crystil, and she's a scary person to be an enemy of :smallwink:

[SPoD]

I cannot believe what Haley just did. And I foresee that this will become a trend, somehow. I can't see such a callously evil act as just an anomaly. There will be serious repercussions, perhaps even dashing our hopes for a quick Roy raise.:smalleek:

And I predict that it will have absolutely no serious repercussions whatsoever, other than perhaps the Thieves' Guild showing up in the story again as villains. They'll teleport away, and we won't hear a peep about the Thieves' Guild for another 300 strips, at which time no one in the OOTS will care that Haley killed Crystal because Crystal will be leading the charge.

I believe this because my nascent bard skills tell me that this act effectively puts a hold on the Guild storyline indefinitely while leaving it on a note of suspense, allowing the strip to proceed along the main plot and come back to it when its convenient for the author.

[Stormthorn]

I *loved* this comic, Haley was simply marvelous and the writing was superb. Especially the play on words in her convo with Celia @ the end.

And killing ur hated rival when they are weak and defenseless? I don't really see the problem with that


Well for one it isnt very dramatic. I prefer fights with rivals to be all epic and whatnot.

Secondly, the problem i think people are having was that it isnt very...well...heroic. Not even Batman would kill off his rival. Let alone trick them into assuming you had a deal and then stabbing them in the back. Thats the sort of thing usualy reserved for morally iredeemable villains.

[Foryn Gilnith]

I cannot believe what Haley just did. And I foresee that this will become a trend, somehow. I can't see such a callously evil act as just an anomaly.

I can, because she has already demonstrated extremely aberrant aggression in casual meeting with Crystal.

[Cleverdan22]

I'm going to post the core of what I did in the original comic thread.

I dunno, it seems that these girls kinda had a personal rivals thing going, but not quite enough to kill, especially without any reason to do so. Crystal had currently not shown really any signs of animosity towards Haley. Banter, sure, but not true hatred.

Even when Haley was down for the count, in the exact same manner Crystal was. Crystal hesitated, and I believe she wouldn't have done it if Bozzok weren't there.

It just doesn't seem like the true intent to kill was there in the relationship. I almost hate to say it, but it seems more like a Sasuke Naruto relationship than a Miko Redcloak relationship.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Personally, I notice that Haley's expression is only pleased when she makes the attack on Crystal and comments on it. She isn't smiling when she makes her declaration to Crystal, or when she slashes her face in half. I think Haley wasn't smiling out of sadistic glee like Belkar would, but rather out of smug satisfaction that she'd had the better tactics and had gotten the drop on Crystal.

While Haley's actions seem rather harsh, it's important to remember that the Guild are scum. All of them. Crystal was one of their worst, yes, but virtually everyone connected with them seems to have very few scruples. Blind Pete betrayed Haley, and Bozzok is a real nasty piece of work. I don't know exactly what Haley "owes" him, but it's clearly not something she thinks paying him would fix. It's not an evil act to kill people as despicable as these, and it sends the right impression to the Guild. That Haley doesn't trust them and that she will not abide by the terms of Celia's agreement since she doesn't think they will either. Note she mentions the fact that Bozzok might not even raise Crystal at all. Judging by what I've seen of him, I don't think he will. He's just not that generous.

[Lord Seth]

Well for one it isnt very dramatic. I prefer fights with rivals to be all epic and whatnot.

Secondly, the problem i think people are having was that it isnt very...well...heroic. Not even Batman would kill off his rival.What does Batman have to do with this? Batman--at least in his later incarnations--is well known for his "do not kill" rule. Haley and the other main characters, meanwhile, have killed countless enemies. Why is this comparison relevant in any way?

[liooil2000]

I wonder what Crystal would do if she was Haley and Haley was Crystal...

[Stormthorn]

What does Batman have to do with this? Batman--at least in his later incarnations--is well known for his "do not kill" rule. Haley and the other main characters, meanwhile, have killed countless enemies. Why is this comparison relevant in any way?

Im just saying that its not heroic and providing an example other than the way i tend to write my own hero characters. In case your wondering, my own heroes have few problems with killing an opponent on the field of battle but if they do it in some other circumstance they are more of an anti-hero or designated protagonist.


What i want to know is how Haley having killed enemies before is relevant to her killing Crystal now. This was murder, not a fight or self defense. You cant put a man who kills people and robs them up against a man who once killed someone trying to kill and rob him and claim they are the same.

Your argument is only valid if those "countless enemies" where all defensless and non-hostile. In which case the problem is one of "Can Haley be considered good at all"

[Cleverdan22]

I wonder what Crystal would do if she was Haley and Haley was Crystal...

Not kill her. Read this: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0610.html

She took a lot of convincing, and was still hesitant.
But Haley killed her with no pressure.

[Mr. Scaly]

I wonder what Crystal would do if she was Haley and Haley was Crystal...

Absolutely nothing. Crystal is too stupid to pose a threat to anything with more than an Intelligence of 1.

[Lissou]

I disagree with people who say "Haley killed Crystal so that she doesn't chase her". That's not the case. She didn't kill her for her to stay dead, she killed her just because.
If she expected her to stay dead, she wouldn't have given her a message for Bozzok. On the other hand, if the message was essential (don't chase me), she would have made sure Crystal didn't die so she could repeat it (Bozzok might not raise her).

In other words, Haley is killing Crystal because she's feeling like it. She enjoys killing her, and is hoping to remember it fondly every time she uses Crystal's weapon. I agree with the OP: not cool.

She could have warned Crystal without killing her, even if she wanted to loot her. Isn't she the one who told Crystal "you're not a rogue, you're an assassin who happens to loot her victims"? That's what she did.

Contrast with Elan: Elan had all the same reasons to kill Kubota and more. Kubota was more of a threat than Crystal due to him having more power, if only that (also the fact that he's not completely uneffective and didn't recently ask if it was possible not to kill Elan, like Crystal asked recently if it was possible not to kill Haley. She actually gave us reasons to believe that she'd rather have Haley alive than dead.)
Yet, Elan didn't kill Kubota, taking pleasure in doing it and stealing his stuff to be able to remember killing him fondly. Instead, V killed Kubota in a pragmatic was that I consider a lot less Evil than the way Haley killed Crystal.

So, yeah, I'm pissed with Haley. I'm at the point where I hope she can never save her father and has Elan leave her. I'm at the point where I regret Elan didn't choose Therkla over Haley, and I didn't even like Therkla in the first place.
Of course, I don't find it totally unexpected either. For this whole book, Haley has been less and less good. I wouldn't be surprised if by this point she's Chaotic Neutral.

[derfenrirwolv]

Leaving the morality implications aside for a minute, was it a smart thing for Hailey to do?

She was about to escape from the guild Scot free, without paying them a cent.

The guild wouldn't know she was reneging on the deal until the next time she came back to down, which could be a looong time and wouldn't have any reason to persue her.

So, she not only kills crystal, but DOESN"T stuff her body in a bag of holding. She leaves her around as a message to the rest of the guild.

Also, i'm pretty sure v would port the entire building to the negative material plane if asked nicely at this point.

[jamroar]

And I predict that it will have absolutely no serious repercussions whatsoever, other than perhaps the Thieves' Guild showing up in the story again as villains. They'll teleport away, and we won't hear a peep about the Thieves' Guild for another 300 strips, at which time no one in the OOTS will care that Haley killed Crystal because Crystal will be leading the charge.

In the OOTS world you can't even make an absolute statement without a karmic boomerang somewhere down the road, how much more an extreme out of character action like this. Just the possible immediate consequences, there are


Haley already has a phobia about people leaving her because she's not 'good' enough.Her latent self-loathing will only grow when she fears Elan discovering and disapproving of the 'real' her.

She has no moral high ground to criticize Belkar now. Belkar might use this to guilt-trip, blackmail her into doing things his way, or turn her as the next target in his new schtick of corrupting others into evil acts.

The Thieves' Guild will take this out of Hank's hide (and Celia, if V. leaves her behind) for setting up this farce of a deal.

[The MunchKING]

Funny. I'm pretty sure that murder has been a crime punishable by death for thousands of years over most of the world.

Only if the were equal or higher than you on the social charts. A Noble could get away with offing as many of his serfs or slaves as he could without inciting a peasent rebellion. :smalltongue:

[Elan man]

totally smart

[The MunchKING]

Well for one it isnt very dramatic. I prefer fights with rivals to be all epic and whatnot.

Secondly, the problem i think people are having was that it isnt very...well...heroic. Not even Batman would kill off his rival. Let alone trick them into assuming you had a deal and then stabbing them in the back. Thats the sort of thing usualy reserved for morally iredeemable villains.

"not Even Batman"?? You pick one of the two strongest no-kill codes in comics to use as your example? :smalltongue:

Arrowette would (and did, IIRC) Some of the Green Lanterns would if they could pull it off. The various Flashes have tried to kill the Anti-Flashes And those types before.

Granted those were heat-of-battle things (or quickly became such) rather than shower ambushs, but that's not the point...

[Stormthorn]

Only if the were equal or higher than you on the social charts. A Noble could get away with offing as many of his serfs or slaves as he could without inciting a peasent rebellion. :smalltongue:


He, respectfully disagrees. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_XVI_of_France)



"not Even Batman"?? You pick one of the two strongest no-kill codes in comics to use as your example?

Arrowette would (and did, IIRC) Some of the Green Lanterns would if they could pull it off. The various Flashes have tried to kill the Anti-Flashes And those types before.

Granted those were heat-of-battle things (or quickly became such) rather than shower ambushs, but that's not the point...

Now you have lost me. I dont read comic books. I was only using him because i dont know very many Fantasy RPG heroes. Um...Drizz't doesnt hunt down Artemis and kill him after Artemis things Drizzt is dead and give sup that whole crazy obsession thing.

[Silverraptor]

Uh... lets see, if Haley were to just vanish before not paying the guild, then they'd probably send crystal to track her down and kill her. So smart in my opinion.

[liooil2000]

Smart. Crystal has just as many levels as Haley. Resurrection drains a level and I doubt someone is going to use true resurrection on Haley.

[TheSummoner]

What she did sent a pretty clear message. "Leave me the **** alone or you'll end up like the skank who used to have the cool dagger"

That and the fact that she already beat Bozzok once...

If I were Bozzok, I'd seriously consider the potential costs of collecting on this debt.

[LeslieR]

Smart, until the next time a clue-free newbie to the party traipses on through Greysky City and loses an irreplaceable macguffin there.

[JJ48]

Especially smart when you consider that Haley's gold was the way that most of the guild was going to "get a raise". XD (Insert brutal pun-induced pummeling here.) Since the guild now has very few members amongst the living now, and Crystal will now be a level BELOW Haley (assuming that's how the Rival thing works), they won't be in much of a position to chase after her, even if they WANTED to face death again. Especially now that she's together with an entire group that can fight well, not just a pacifist sylph and a sick halfling.

[The MunchKING]

He, respectfully disagrees. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_XVI_of_France)

I don't see anything in there about his stance on monarchial murder, only that he couldn't get away with it, because he was trying to reform the tyranies of the previous kings.

Besides, the 1770s is a good deal after the Psuedo-midevil and prior times we were taking about.



Now you have lost me. I dont read comic books.

Well Batman has a rediculously strong "I won't kill ANYONE even the Joker, right after he tried to nuke Gotham" code. Even Superman's a bit looser (as he killed Evil kryptonians and Doomsday).


I was only using him because i dont know very many Fantasy RPG heroes.

All the ones I know kill thier villians. In combat if not ambushes...

[Corsair]

Not cool? This was awesome. Let me explain to you what just happened. Haley just got a Chaotic Evil assassin to open up her door unarmed and unarmored, shot her repeatedly, and then stabbed her in the face. It offends your moral sensibilities? Go live in Greysky City for a few days and have a chat with the guy who runs the cockfighting pits and his buddy who routinely beats his wife, and then contemplate the fact that this psychopath who just boarded the Night Train Express straight to Hell is the most psychotic and evil freakshow in this little organization. THEN consider the fact that Greysky City has no police force, the Guild runs the city completely with an iron fist. Crystal was NEVER going to be punished for her crimes until she was killed.

So basically, here's what happened. Doc Holliday just paid a visit to Jack the Ripper and blew him away without batting an eyelash, taunting him a bit before he finished Jack with his own meat cleaver. Of course, this is Jack The Ripper we're talking about, so there's no guarantee that he'll stay dead, but at least for a little while, Jack won't be cutting apart innocent young maidens or trying to slit Doc's throat at any given opportunity. And you're protesting because...what, Doc didn't give Jack enough time? He didn't call him out to pistols at Dawn? He didn't decide to let Jack go on his merry way, leaving a trail of blood? No, Doc did the SMART thing and killed Jack while Jack was unprepared, rather than letting Jack try to do the same thing to him a month, a year, ten years down the line.

Was what Haley did especially honorable or heroic? No. Was it Evil? No. Crystal deserved a pretty severe punishment for her crimes, AND what was Haley supposed to do, leave her Arch-Nemesis behind her to plot to murder Haley, what, during her wedding? Get it through your heads people - Haley isn't a hero. An unusually adept Rogue, and Good-Aligned, but those two do not necessarily make for a Hero. She's a person, so to speak, and she has other things to contemplate than: Is this really the most heroic thing to do?

And, yes, you could interpret this as being Evil. But for one thing, people are not the personification of their alignment, unless your name is Elan, or maybe Eugene Greenhilt. So anyone who thinks she just became Chaotic Evil is kidding themselves, any more so than those who thought Miko became Evil after she killed Shojo. People make mistakes, and as far as mistakes go, killing a psychotic assassin who's vowed to kill you and is a pretty hefty threat to both you and your friends is not an especially huge one.

In closing, don't confuse Lawful with Good, pay Evil unto Evil, and Haley needs a pair of sixguns.

[tKircher]

Just like at the end of Sin City, when Dwight razes half the Mob, the point is not to get away quietly, but to show that the cost to track him down and get rid of him isn't worth it.

Essentially, Haley just signed a 'noncompete' with Greysky Thieves. She stays away, they stay away.

[Raging Gene Ray]

I dunno, it seems that these girls kinda had a personal rivals thing going, but not quite enough to kill, especially without any reason to do so. Crystal had currently not shown really any signs of animosity towards Haley. Banter, sure, but not true hatred.


What would you call Crystal skipping down the street like a little girl on the first day of Spring singing "I get to kill Haaaa-ley! I get to kill Haaaaa-ley!"?

[derfenrirwolv]

From the FAQ




There are a few ways creatures can avoid sneak attacks from
unseen foes. For example, the blindsight special quality allows
creatures to “see” the unseen, and the uncanny dodge class
feature allows characters to retain their Dexterity bonuses
against foes they cannot see




I’m basicallywondering what conditions can cause you to lose the
benefits of uncanny dodge.

Flat-Footed: Uncanny dodge negates the effects of this condition.

So, by the rules, you effectively can't sneak attack through surprise a rogue or barbarian with uncanny dodge. Add it to the large list of monsters immune to critical hits that can't get sneak attacked. This is one of the reasons rogues get hosed in combat. Every monster and its brother is immune to sneak attacks by virtue of being immune to crits or just too big to stab anything other than its pinkie toes.

Not that this effects the comics much. Hailey is shooting at a can't miss ac of what... 15? tops. 4 shots (1 surprise round, 3 regular) hits for 4d8 (bow) +20 (from the +5) +5d6 (icy) for about 54 damage or so. On top of whatever damage she had from roy's recovery is enough to drop her down to Haileys melee range.

[Dagren]

What would you call Crystal skipping down the street like a little girl on the first day of Spring singing "I get to kill Haaaa-ley! I get to kill Haaaaa-ley!"?What about "DIE, WHORE, DIE!!" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0608.html)?

[Spoomeister]

Murder implies something permanent. When resurrections can be bought by organizations or powerful individuals, death isn't permanent. Same thing (if you'll pardon cross-story and cross-genre comparison) to killing Cylons in the recent BSG. If a resurrection ship is nearby, they're not really dead, just in a hell of a lot of pain, then very very far away.

So this wasn't really killing her DEAD-dead. This was removing a rival very forcefully from the field of battle, and sending a message to Bozzok et al. Haley did enjoy it, sure, and that plus having other ways to deal with the situation does nudge her in an evil direction. But ultimately it was a strategic decision, in a universe where death is not absolute.

Not saying I'd do it myself. It's a story about a game setting, guys, don't read into people's character through their reactions here. Not even saying I'd do it in her situation, in her world.

But yeah, Haley's definitely shown herself to be Chaotic Neutral. What V did once was murder. What Belkar does often is slaughter. What Haley did once was very vicious self-defense.

(Also, from a meta-story level, this sets up Haley to get a nice talking-to when she confirms that V has gone evil, as she certainly is in no position to moralize.)

Side point: if Crystal were a monster NPC, or a plain ol monster, rather than a human NPC, there wouldn't be nearly this level of angst over it. I'm sure many people wouldn't feel the same if it were Redcloak. Heck, one of the central storylines of the comic, which many people were rooting for, was Roy going out of his way to take revenge on Xykon by seeking him out and trying to kill him, even though Xykon hadn't tried to kill Roy. All about perspective, really.

[Silverraptor]

Murder is defined as killing someone with intent and purpose. It doesn't mention that the person has to be dead permenantly. This is still murder.

[Alteran]

To use a real-world definition, yes she did. Permanency has no effect on that.


In Canada, murder is classified as either first or second degree.[46]

1. First degree murder is a murder which is (1) planned and deliberate, (2) contracted, (3) committed against an identified peace officer, (4) while committing or attempting to commit one of the following offences (hijacking an aircraft, sexual assault, sexual assault with a weapon, aggravated sexual assault, kidnapping and forcible confinement or hostage taking), (5) while committing criminal harassment, (6) committed during terrorist activity, (7) while using explosives in association with a criminal organization, or (8) while committing intimidation. [47]
2. Second degree murder is all murder which is not first degree murder. It could be "spur of the moment".


I'd say she committed either or all of the following: 2.,(1), (8). Whether or not it was justified...well, that's a different matter.

[JJ48]

This discussion should probably be taken over to this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=110244) thread, as it's really just a subsection of the "Haley killing Crystal" topic.

[Silverraptor]

To use a real-world definition, yes she did. Permanency has no effect on that.



I'd say she committed either or all of the following: 2.,(1), (8). Whether or not it was justified...well, that's a different matter.

No it's first because she planned on killing crystal before teleporting off with V.

[lisiecki]

[QUOTE=Spoomeister;6044733
But yeah, Haley's definitely shown herself to be Chaotic Neutral. What V did once was murder. What Belkar does often is slaughter. What Haley did once was very vicious self-defense. [/QUOTE]

I'm Not sure that's "Self-Defense"
If I had some one who, as a teenager I had an antagonistic relationship with.
And then years later i ran in to them, and got in to another fight with them.
And then, on my way out of town, never to return, i stopped by there house and ... killed them, that's really not "Self defense", at the least horrible thats, like aggravated assault maybe?

[Alteran]

It depends on how limited "spur of the moment" has to be. She had no more than a few minutes planning, so it's not perfectly clear. I would also argue for first degree murder (especially since she was under no pressure at the time of her decision), but other people could argue otherwise.

Edit:
I'm Not sure that's "Self-Defense"
If I had some one who, as a teenager I had an antagonistic relationship with.
And then years later i ran in to them, and got in to another fight with them.
And then, on my way out of town, never to return, i stopped by there house and ... killed them, that's really not "Self defense"

Correction: Assume, for the purposes of the argument, that this fight you got into involved the other party nearly killing you, and then promising to do so in the future. Then assume that the world in which you live views murder as a generally acceptable method of resolving problems among individuals (at least in this city), and that to do otherwise puts you in mortal danger at some unspecified point in the future. Self-defense might not be the best term, but she had good reasons for killing Crystal. That doesn't make it good, but it's not necessarily evil. If anything is evil, I'd say the pleasure she apparently took in the act is it.

[Super_slash2]

I don't think it's the fact that she killed Crystal and looted her stuff. This is normal rogue-ish stuff, it's not that that seems out of character.

It's the lack of caring. Some things are a neccessity or just a good idea but not caring or enjoying that you're doing it is what separates it from being a neccesary but sad course of action to a vindictive killing.

If she hadn't expressed so much distaste or believed that she wouldn't be ressurected. I think most people would find that the hard part to swallow, not the actual killing itself (which isn't that great either).

She did something similar with that guy on the staircase who ran that dog-fighting ring, where she just out-and-out killed him and walked by without caring. She had given it some thought before she realized how little she liked him and decided to kill him off. What she hadn't done is enjoy it like she seems to have at the last panel of the comic.

[The_JJ]

... ow! My brain just hurt.

Look, you just brought the real life legal definition of 'murder' into a thread where the very point was 'but in DnD...'

Murder is bad in the here and now because once someone stops breathing and passes pass the point of ressusitation that is it, it is over, they are not coming back short of divine intervention. Hence our tendency to drop the hammer on would be murderers.

In this little story, Crystal is dead but not gone. Realistically, Haley's looking at assualt and battery, theft of magical items, and liable for the unlawful destruction of property worth 3000 gp.

... the diamonds for rezzing, BTW.

So yeah, stop killing catgirls.

[TheNifty]

Jesus people, Crystal is an assassin working for a thieves guild. She kills people for a living, and has been trying to kill Haley for years. This is objectively FAR less evil than killing a bunch of sleeping ogres whose alignment you aren't 100% sure of.

Who gives a damn if she enjoyed her revenge?

[David Argall]

Haley is currently guilty of murder. It is possible that under some OOTS legal systems that charge is reduced if the victim is revived. It is nearly certain that it is not in all. However, even where it is reduced, the cost to the victim is something in excess of the average man's lifetime earnings, maybe a couple million in our terms. So it would be listed as something like murder 2 or 3. Belkar got voluntary manslaughter in such a case, but he had an in with the prosecution and is probably correct in saying it should be murder 2.

[Silverraptor]

The comic bit at first reminded me of "psycho" (sorry if spelled wrong). Though Haley did the honor of making sure Crystal atleast came to the door.

[nonamearisto]

I normally wouldn't say this... but Haley really crossed the line here, to the point that if she is killed like Aerith (FFVII), I would be cheering for the villain who did it.

[Silverraptor]

Haley is currently guilty of murder. It is possible that under some OOTS legal systems that charge is reduced if the victim is revived. It is nearly certain that it is not in all. However, even where it is reduced, the cost to the victim is something in excess of the average man's lifetime earnings, maybe a couple million in our terms. So it would be listed as something like murder 2 or 3. Belkar got voluntary manslaughter in such a case, but he had an in with the prosecution and is probably correct in saying it should be murder 2.

Uhhhhh... right. That could work. Had to reread a few times to understand everything you said though. But it's certainly possible.

[Raenir Salazar]

This is alot of pages to cover :(

My argument essentially is this, none of the clear cut examples of CG characters in fiction would do what she did.

[Alteran]

Unless we have a canon definition of murder in OotS, then the real-world definition is the best one we have. I realize that murder isn't necessarily permanent in D&D, but I don't see how that changes what it is. You could argue that murder is less significant, but deciding it's not murder because it's possible to reverse doesn't make sense to me. Remember that in D&D and OotS, while raising the dead is possible, it's not easy. It's expensive and requires a medium-high level cleric, which makes it out of reach for a vast majority of the population. While it's true that Crystal can be raised, murder likely won't be any less significant in the world at large. She's not the usual case.

[The_JJ]

Right, I think killing a person far away from a good preist and/or in an area in which the diamonds would not be provided would be murder. But this is not the case, since Bozzak obviously has the capabilities to rez. O' course, Haley is trying to presure him into not doing it. Should her blackmail work, then we got murder. Or possible premptive self-defence.

Grr... ninja'd.

One sec and I'll have a counterargument. Or a concesion.

[Charles Phipps]

Personally, I have no difficulty believing Haley did what she did and I think its premature to believe its an alignment shift because I see that as a fundamental shift in one's attitudes. Is Haley going to become more brutal and more mercenary because of this action? Will she become greedier and less altruistic?

That, for me, is what constitutes an alignment shift.

But why did she do it? I think the answer is ironically Ceila. Ceila in order to assauge her guilt, basically sold Haley into slavery. Ceila doesn't see it that way because she can't see the problem with paying for all the damage done to the Thieves' Guild and not realizing how much of a traumatic experience that working for the guilt is.

Haley HATES the Guild with a kind of personal venom that is rare in the comic.

This was to send a message that she was a Free Thief and never would be enslaved again.

[heroe_de_leyenda]

This strip was WRONG. The Giant lost it this time: It's making people say things that would put them in jail... (or with serious counseling)

[Charles Phipps]

This is alot of pages to cover :(

My argument essentially is this, none of the clear cut examples of CG characters in fiction would do what she did.

Duncan Macleod killed at least one helpless opponent.

[heroe_de_leyenda]

I read the first page and I was going to post.
The second and third pages sapped my will and faith in humanity.
The fourth page with Stormthorn finally convinced me that whatever point I had to make had already been made, and I could finally let loose of my pained body and become one with the Force.

Amen, brother.

[Charles Phipps]

This strip was WRONG. The Giant lost it this time: It's making people say things that would put them in jail... (or with serious counseling)

I don't know. In real life, what Haley did isn't even arguably a crime in the United States. The reason that juries of peers exist is to get whether a person's circumstances warranted their actions. You could charge Haley with 1st Degree or 2nd Degree Murder but the fact is that the victim in question has attempted to kill her before and has expressed the desire to do so. I'm fairly sure she could get a not guilty verdict with a good lawyer.

My opinion?

Haley was under enormous emotional stress and did the right thing in telling the Thieves' Guild the deal was off. Killing Crystal was not a good thing by any stretch of the imagination but I can't label an action evil unless it was totally unjustified and wrong.

Crystal wanted to kill Haley and had already tried to do so. In RL, I couldn't send someone to prison over that.

[jamroar]

This is alot of pages to cover :(

My argument essentially is this, none of the clear cut examples of CG characters in fiction would do what she did.

It's a CN/borderline evil act. I don't know if it shifted her alignment to CN, though it's possible.

[The_JJ]

Unless we have a canon definition of murder in OotS, then the real-world definition is the best one we have. I realize that murder isn't necessarily permanent in D&D, but I don't see how that changes what it is. You could argue that murder is less significant, but deciding it's not murder because it's possible to reverse doesn't make sense to me. Remember that in D&D and OotS, while raising the dead is possible, it's not easy. It's expensive and requires a medium-high level cleric, which makes it out of reach for a vast majority of the population. While it's true that Crystal can be raised, murder likely won't be any less significant in the world at large. She's not the usual case.


M'alright.

Totally correct in all cases except "deciding it's not murder because it's possible to reverse doesn't make sense to me."
Hell, everytime someone gets open heart surgery they stop the heart from beating. Lot of other procedures involve stopping hearts etc, and people who accidentally (or intentionally) injure someone to the point of clinical death who are then revived via CPR/the magic defib paddles, which does happen in real life, are not charged with murder. Attempted murder, reckless endagerment, yes, but not murder. Hmm... we'll need to add attempted murder to Haley's rap sheet, pending Bozzak's decision on rezzing.

And I thikn the point of the OP is 'it's not the "usual case," so let's not use the same terms to describe it.'

But yeah, I was just annoyed by the legal definitions during a debate that was not challenging those, but rather if they apply. Which they don't, in this case, just yet.

[Charles Phipps]

It's a CN/borderline evil act. I don't know if it shifted her alignment to CN, though it's possible.

It boils down a lot of readers sensibilities. Would Haley still rescue slaves for no reward? Would Haley still help innocent people imperiled by Ogres? Would Haley snuggle bunny rabbits and work to resurrect Aerith? Would Haley still protect the innocent people of our blue Pseudo-Japanese nation?

If so, then I say she's still good.

[Warren Dew]

Crystal has not only attempted to kill Haley in the past, she has made it clear that she will keep on trying.

I have to disagree. Crystal had Haley at her mercy for five pages, was directly ordered to kill her, and still wanted to let Haley go. The most she managed was cutting Haley's hair off.

From what we've seen, Crystal seems more good than Haley.

[Charles Phipps]

I have to disagree. Crystal had Haley at her mercy for five pages, was directly ordered to kill her, and still wanted to let Haley go. The most she managed was cutting Haley's hair off.

From what we've seen, Crystal seems more good than Haley.

Man, what?

The Haley who liberated slaves at great personal emotional and mental risk?

[The MunchKING]

but he had an in with the prosecution and is probably correct in saying it should be murder 2.

He totally premeditated...

[Morthis]

Not kill her. Read this: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0610.html

She took a lot of convincing, and was still hesitant.
But Haley killed her with no pressure.

She was hesitant because she was enjoying the gloating, and because as long as Haley lives, she gets free levels. If you honestly believe she wouldn't have killed Haley eventually either way, you must not have read a single comic with Crystal in it.

I don't think Haley killed Crystal just to make sure she wouldn't hunt them down. To me this seemed more of a revenge thing, and that revenge probably felt very justified considering what Crystal would do to Haley if given the chance, and considering Crystal is quite clearly evil. If Haley had killed Xykon, I don't think anyone would be surprised, why is Crystal any different? She's still evil, just less ambitious and a lot dumber.

It also doesn't strike me out of character for Haley to kill Crystal while she's weak like this. Quite obviously Crystal would do the same to Haley (she had no problem fighting an unarmed Haley or fighting her 2v1), and this is a rogue we're talking about. I'm not the biggest D&D expert here, but last I checked, if a rogue just stands and fights a melee opponent (fighter/ranger/paladin/etc) straight up, they'll get wrecked, which is why they attack opponents distracted by someone else. Their entire class is designed around the whole sneaky thing, so I don't know why it's so surprising Haley takes advantage of that. "Fair" fights might be something for paladins, but it completely does not strike me as something a rogue would strive for.

One last thing to keep in mind. If Celia had not interfered in this whole ordeal, Bozzok and Crystal would both have been killed by Haley and Belkar during the big fight. I don't think anyone would have even thought twice about it then. It's quite obvious Haley was furious about this whole deal (especially when she found out about the fine print), so this was probably something that had been building up since that deal was forced on her.

[Raging Gene Ray]

From what we've seen, Crystal seems more good than Haley.

I'd have to second Charles Phipps back there...Haley took her time to lead the Resisty, Crystal seems to just enjoy killing and the fact she gets paid for it is just a nice bonus.

Did you mean "From what we've seen in this particular strip?" because that would be understandable. Debatable, but understandable.



One last thing to keep in mind. If Celia had not interfered in this whole ordeal, Bozzok and Crystal would both have been killed by Haley and Belkar during the big fight. I don't think anyone would have even thought twice about it then. It's quite obvious Haley was furious about this whole deal (especially when she found out about the fine print), so this was probably something that had been building up since that deal was forced on her.

...allow me to once again make my prediction that this whole thing will come full circle when Celia takes the blame for Crystal's death.

[Charles Phipps]

Yeah, no offense, but the King of Pacifists mentioned that you should avoid casting the first stone. Was what Haley did awful? By modern society, pretty much.

OTOH, I'm a little unnerved how everyone's immediate response is to dismiss all the good she's done and treat her like she's Anakin Skywalker butchering younglings and about to help destroy Alderaan.

In real life, would everyone immediately turn against someone totally as a monster because they did a questionable deed under extreme duress? Geez, I hope I never get you people on a jury.

[TheNifty]

Jesus, people are seriously arguing that Crystal didn't mean Haley harm? I quote (again) from comic 621:

CRYSTAL: "I don't care if you're back in the Guild, I'll get you for this someday, Starshine!"


From what we've seen, Crystal seems more good than Haley.

...Are you people even reading the comic? does your memory only stretch back the last five strips or so?

[Morthis]

This strip was WRONG. The Giant lost it this time: It's making people say things that would put them in jail... (or with serious counseling)

What kind of backwards country do you live in that would imprison you for debating the ethics of comic book characters?

Heck, you could debate the merits of murder in real life and you still wouldn't go to prison in most modern countries.


I have to disagree. Crystal had Haley at her mercy for five pages, was directly ordered to kill her, and still wanted to let Haley go. The most she managed was cutting Haley's hair off.

From what we've seen, Crystal seems more good than Haley.

It was like 4 pages, and you don't know how much time passed.

If you actually read those pages again, you'd also see that the reasons she took time was because:

1) She was busy gloating (cutting off hair, etc), and
2) She wanted one more level of assassin for free from Haley leveling

So no, it wasn't the kindness of her heart stopping her, it was plain greed. If she didn't level with Haley, she would have killed her as soon as she was done gloating.

[Code Black]

Also note that Tvtropes doesn't consider alignment the same way D&D does, I'm assuming (I don't play D&D, so I'm winging it here). From what I know from these forums and the comic, it's more existential there: a character is defined by their actions and only by their actions., rather than their personality or intentions, which is what the Tvtropes character archetype articles tend to focus on.

So there, a single evil action will probably not actually justify a mass changing of character classification.

[Charles Phipps]

Also note that Tvtropes doesn't consider alignment the same way D&D does, I'm assuming (I don't play D&D, so I'm winging it here). From what I know from these forums and the comic, it's more existential there: a character is defined by their actions, rather than their personality or intentions, which is what the Tvtropes character archetype articles tend to focus on.

Yeah, on the other hand, there's no litmus point either. Robin Hood in the BBC series killed about 60 people after being a total Pacifist for 12 episodes when he thought Maid Marian was killed.

We don't switch Robin Hood to Chaotic Neutral because of it.

Alignment is about what a character tends to do. Is this a one time thing or will Haily do it a lot more often.

[TheNifty]

This is a troll thread, right? LOTS of chaotic good characters have sneak attacked non-hostile enemies.

You love TVTropes so much, read the "Anti-hero" page.

Or just watch "Star Wars" - Han shot first, after all.

[cha0s4a11]

I think a Discworld quote is relevant here:

"If you have to look along the shaft of an arrow from the wrong end, if a man has you at his mercy, then hope like hell that man is an evil man. Because the evil like power, power over people, and they want to see you in fear. They want you to know you are going to die. So they'll talk. They'll gloat. They'll watch you squirm. They'll put off the murder like another man will put off a good cigar. So hope like hell your captor is an evil man. A good man will kill you with hardly a word."

[Code Black]

I can see it being in Haley's character to confront and kill Crystal on principle, but it seems unlike her to do it so abruptly, cruelly, and... underhandedly. Especially since she appreciates dramatic tension just almost as much as Elan does.

[Raging Gene Ray]

Why did Haley kill Crystal all of a sudden?

Because...it is written.

[ABB]

Halley's killing of crystal was infinitely worse than belkar offing the guard in AC.

Halley went to the town she killed crystal in voluntarily, and was leaving with no interference when she went out of her way to rob and murder crystal out of revenge and to rob her. Murder during a robbery, and premeditated.

Belkar had been kidnapped by someone with no legal authority in the region she took him from, robbed of his goods, imprisoned and threatened with a trial that would have resulted in his death. he had every right, legally and morally, to kill that AC guard and anyone else in AC to escape, and he killed that guard as part of an escape from kidnapping and threat of unlawful trial and execution.

No wonder the belkster was smiling at her in the last panel. "Hey, welcome to my world, baby! Damn you'll look in black leather and boots."

PS hope belkar gets a chance to kick hinjo's smug ass over the whole trial and MoJ deal...

[heroe_de_leyenda]

Jesus, people are seriously arguing that Crystal didn't mean Haley harm? I quote (again) from comic 621:

CRYSTAL: "I don't care if you're back in the Guild, I'll get you for this someday, Starshine!"



...Are you people even reading the comic? does your memory only stretch back the last five strips or so?

Anyway, man. "Eye for an eye" is not a good thing. It 's neutral at best. And what Haley did was horrible. Heroes don't do those things.

[Silverraptor]

My Swashbuckler Character would totally do what Haley just did to a changeling crime lord he absolutely hates. And my swashbuckler is CG.

[TheSummoner]

Haley is a rogue... being sneaky is what she does. Why is it surprising that she would catch Crystal by surprise and then deal the killing blow at the best oppertunity?

I find it to be entirely in keeping with what I know of her.

[Kaed]

This thread is still going? =/ It's been almost a day now people, and you've come up with nothing new or interesting that hasn't been said on the very first page.

And the arguments are becoming more and more abstract. Crystal is good? I swear to whatever sanity the human race has left, if a Crystal is Lawful Good thread pops up...

I think it's time to let the whole stupid arguement go. Please?

Maybe someone can lock it...

[Silverraptor]

PS hope belkar gets a chance to kick shojo's smug ass over the whole trial and MoJ deal...

WHAT!?!?!?! WHY?! Belkar loves the wacky old dude with the cat. Also, Shojo gave him the tip to fake character growth. The only reason Shojo put on the mark of justice was to get Belkar out of prison and help save the world! (Wow. That felt weird to type. I don't know why but it was, since he is trying to save the world. WHY DOES IT FEEL SO WIERD?! WHY!?!?!?!?!:smallfurious:)

[David Argall]

Dumb. Haley can be said to have made it personal.

Seen as a matter of business, the Guild already knew chasing Haley down wasn't worth it. She and Belkar [with minor help from cleric and Celia and major help from the writer] had just beaten up the entire guild. Now she has the assistance of a major mage, a powerful cleric, and will soon have a strong fighter on her side. That is something too tough for the guild to take on [or is if we want to consider the previous fight as anything but fixed.] So it was useless as a warning to the guild.
But by attacking Crystal, one risks pushing it beyond the point where rational considerations apply. Crystal may be now willing to do everything she can to get Haley, and that means that by some accident or other, she gets to join Nale or Xykon.

[Theodoriph]

Haley never planned on keeping Celia's ridiculous contract.

If Haley backstabbed Bozok again, Bozzok would be mad.

Mad Bozzok would send his best assassin to get Haley back.

Haley decided to take care of said assassin pre-emptively.


Also...Haley hated said assassin.



So you can look at it rationally...or as pure revenge. But it was probably a mixture of both. Either way, it was a good choice.

[Sholos]

I think a Discworld quote is relevant here:

"If you have to look along the shaft of an arrow from the wrong end, if a man has you at his mercy, then hope like hell that man is an evil man. Because the evil like power, power over people, and they want to see you in fear. They want you to know you are going to die. So they'll talk. They'll gloat. They'll watch you squirm. They'll put off the murder like another man will put off a good cigar. So hope like hell your captor is an evil man. A good man will kill you with hardly a word."

This post wins. Multiple times.

[TheNifty]

Anyway, man. "Eye for an eye" is not a good thing. It 's neutral at best. And what Haley did was horrible. Heroes don't do those things.

I agree that the action was neutral, although I'd call it "Pro-active self defense" rather than "an eye for an eye".

Heroes do this sort of thing all the time... if your hero is Frank Castle, that is.

[Silverraptor]

Dumb. Haley can be said to have made it personal.

Seen as a matter of business, the Guild already knew chasing Haley down wasn't worth it. She and Belkar [with minor help from cleric and Celia and major help from the writer] had just beaten up the entire guild. Now she has the assistance of a major mage, a powerful cleric, and will soon have a strong fighter on her side. That is something too tough for the guild to take on [or is if we want to consider the previous fight as anything but fixed.] So it was useless as a warning to the guild.
But by attacking Crystal, one risks pushing it beyond the point where rational considerations apply. Crystal may be now willing to do everything she can to get Haley, and that means that by some accident or other, she gets to join Nale or Xykon.

Always come to the worst possible conclusions, don't you?

[Silverraptor]

I can't wait for all this talk to die down. I mean we got the whole, "What's V's four words" topic to rest in its grave. Well I'll be counting the moments till we argue something else.

[Code Black]

Not really smart... no. From what I know about Crystal, she's not exactly the most able opponent... Sure, she's powerful enough, but she's as dumb as a rock, and she only beat Haley because, if I remember correctly, Haley was unarmed and unprepared. Bozzok barely tolerated her, and he probably

Now, on the subject of Crystal's sudden death. To Bozzok, this is essentially baldface proof that Haley has betrayed them, and possibly even declared open war against them, by betraying them once again and killing one of their own. Bozzok doesn't strike me as the sort who would listen to such a warning and do nothing against that. Plus, with Crystal dead, Bozzok actually has incentive to replace her with someone better.

So, there are two options:

One) Bozzok raises Crystal, and everything goes back to the norm, with the Thieves Guild actively chasing the heroes. Unlikely

Two) Recent events, especially the proof that Haley killed Crystal, encourage Bozzok to find someone actually competent and much more powerful than himself or Crystal to hunt down Haley, since his previous rival for Haley was obviously (to his point of view) inadequate. Think something like Miko, but actually actively working for the bad guys. So, it ends with the Thieves Guild chasing the heroes, but with far more powerful forces. Much more likely.

Neither one of these scenarios is any good for the team, and the first would probably have happened regardless. In short, the only think Haley really did was alert the Thieves Guild and encourage them to try harder, and she either did nothing at all, or made things worse.

It might've been a bit smarter to get rid of Crystal's body afterwards (which I'm pretty sure Haley wouldn't do anyway), but it would still be a bad idea.

[Code Black]

I can't wait for all this talk to die down. I mean we got the whole, "What's V's four words" topic to rest in its grave. Well I'll be counting the moments till we argue something else.

Well, in this case, it's actually character analysis, rather than analysis founded on speculation.

[Cúchulainn]

ITT: Carebears and awesome Discworld quotes.

[Murdim]

{Scrubbed}

[Porthos]

Duncan Macleod killed at least one helpless opponent.

Methos* would have had even less problem with doing what Haley did, I would think. :smalltongue:

"Live. Grow Stronger. Fight Another Day."

* Admittedly, he is a character whose alignment has been a yo-yo (not surprising considering how darn long he's been alive), but I tend to think that his latest incarnation is on the G side of the CN/CG divide. Opinions might vary, of course.

[PId6]

I can see it being in Haley's character to confront and kill Crystal on principle, but it seems unlike her to do it so abruptly, cruelly, and... underhandedly. Especially since she appreciates dramatic tension just almost as much as Elan does.
Um, it's unlike Haley to be underhanded? Where have you been for the last 20 "SNEAK ATTACK"s?


Why did Haley kill Crystal all of a sudden?

Because...it is written.
Who decides?
Decides? It is written.

[SoC175]

Right, I think killing a person far away from a good preist and/or in an area in which the diamonds would not be provided would be murder.
Even in an area with said priests and diamonds avaible most people lives just aren't valuable enough to waste spell&diamond.

[Avilan the Grey]

And the argument "she was planning on killing Haley later" doesn't hold water. That's a reason to sleep with one eye open or set a trap for when she attacks, not attack her first. There is a large burden of proof on the attacker to come off as morally correct, and "they said they were going to kill me" isn't a reason. Unless you could prove an immediate threat (as in, the moment she got out of the shower she was going to go kill Haley), it doesn't fit my standards.

IRL western morals does not apppy to D&D. This is a world that functions on the "Heroic Fantasy" scale. You don't go and wait for X to kill you because "I haven't got enough evidence to go to the cops about it yet". You kill X. Even if you are a good guy. This is no different from kicking in the door at the Big Bad's magic tower and dice him up because he has tried to kill you repeatedly (although you have no direct proof that he was the one that sent the assassins after you). This is no different from cleaning out every single Goblin in the dungeon, even the ones eating dinner or taking a dump (they are XP after all).

Again: IRL western morals does not apppy to D&D.

[LurkerInPlayground]

IRL western morals does not apppy to D&D. This is a world that functions on the "Heroic Fantasy" scale. You don't go and wait for X to kill you because "I haven't got enough evidence to go to the cops about it yet". You kill X. Even if you are a good guy. This is no different from kicking in the door at the Big Bad's magic tower and dice him up because he has tried to kill you repeatedly (although you have no direct proof that he was the one that sent the assassins after you). This is no different from cleaning out every single Goblin in the dungeon, even the ones eating dinner or taking a dump (they are XP after all).

Again: IRL western morals does not apppy to D&D.
Why would eastern ones apply? Hmm?

Nevermind.

It's actually High Fantasy's point to angst about the morality of certain actions. The whole thing of LOTR was Aragorn and company all trying to resist the corruption of The One Ring. And simply killing Gollum would have been a bad thing, even if you made the case that he "had it coming to him." Bilbo's Pity and all that.

Pulp fantasy is composed of anti-heroes where doing what Haley did is almost obligatory, because it isn't about high-heroism.

[Avilan the Grey]

I think a Discworld quote is relevant here:

"If you have to look along the shaft of an arrow from the wrong end, if a man has you at his mercy, then hope like hell that man is an evil man. Because the evil like power, power over people, and they want to see you in fear. They want you to know you are going to die. So they'll talk. They'll gloat. They'll watch you squirm. They'll put off the murder like another man will put off a good cigar. So hope like hell your captor is an evil man. A good man will kill you with hardly a word."

This is definitely true. Especially in Fiction, but also in real life.

[David Argall]

Killing Crystal was an evil act, period. Haley was acting because she didn't like Crystal, not because she deemed Crystal guilty of crimes, or because she wanted to prevent the Guild from seeking revenge. As the name of the strip tells us, Haley was wanting to hurt Crystal, a simple and definitely evil motive.

[LurkerInPlayground]

This is definitely true. Especially in Fiction, but also in real life.
Well unless you get one of those cold assassin types who are also evil but derive their power from a professional reputation.

Or Belkar before he got all subtle-like.

Pratchett's point is well-taken however.

[Avilan the Grey]

Why would eastern ones apply? Hmm?

Nevermind.

It's actually High Fantasy's point to angst about the morality of certain actions. The whole thing of LOTR was Aragorn and company all trying to resist the corruption of The One Ring. And simply killing Gollum would have been a bad thing, even if you made the case that he "had it coming to him." Bilbo's Pity and all that.

Pulp fantasy is composed of anti-heroes where doing what Haley did is almost obligatory, because it isn't about high-heroism.

I was not talking about High Fantasy, I was talking about Heroic Fantasy. Similar, yet different. This is not LOTR. This is Conan.

[gibbo88]

One single act doesn't make you turn evil/stop being good, otherwise in the Paladin entry they would have just "If you stop being good, you fall" and wouldn't need the bit about committing a single evil act.

My opinion is that it's what you do on the vast majority of cases that defines your alignment.

[Avilan the Grey]

Killing Crystal was an evil act, period. Haley was acting because she didn't like Crystal, not because she deemed Crystal guilty of crimes, or because she wanted to prevent the Guild from seeking revenge. As the name of the strip tells us, Haley was wanting to hurt Crystal, a simple and definitely evil motive.

It was a neutral act. Or there would not be many Good characters in a D&D world. Haley was seeking revenge on an enemy that had tried to kill her. That was the #1 reason, and yet you have not listed it above?

[LurkerInPlayground]

I was not talking about High Fantasy, I was talking about Heroic Fantasy. Similar, yet different. This is not LOTR. This is Conan.
Well no. D&D is really a mish-mash of the two forms. "Conan" doesn't strike me as the appropriate tone for OotS or most D&D settings as they're currently played.
===
The Haley Debate so far (a quick recap):
Some people think Haley did alright. Others thought she could have handled it better. Appending the actual label of "evil" or "neutral' is irrelevant to the underlying belief and assessment.

I personally don't give frack. If Crystal existed, I'd be glad that Haley killed her, because who would really mourn the death of stupid and thuggish killer? It's entirely Haley's responsibility but with the added benefit that I reap the benefits of having one less killer to threaten my existence.

How can you not love that?

[V'icternus]

I would have thought being Chaotically good would be expected to incude killing of bad people. Chaotic = opposite of law. So, you know, seeing as I'm fairly certain our recently deceased nemesis is evil, it doesn't seem to be against alignment to kill her.

[Avilan the Grey]

Well no. D&D is really a mish-mash of the two forms. "Conan" doesn't strike me as the appropriate tone for OotS or most D&D settings as they're currently played.

True. It is more of a mix of LOTR and Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser.
The point is that most of the lofty "Gandalf speech" does not apply in a D&D world. It might not be as dark and gritty as Conan, but it definitely is not pure LOTR.

[Charmy]

Er, no. Elan saved Nale there because he's childish and naive - I mean, the rationale that convinced him to do it was "it would make mommy cry if he died." You don't get much more childish than that. He would have been no less good had he let him die there, and much trouble would have been saved later on.

Wow.. just.. wow.
My faith in humanity died a little reading that.

I suppose I shouldn't be surprised though. I did once play with a D&D group of 'good characters' that defended killing a weapons merchant and looting his home because he knowingly sold them cursed weapons.

This reminds me of Rich Moranis saying "Evil will always triumph, because good is dumb."

To the utilitarianist, to the neutral person, and to the evil person, good's forgiveness and compassion seem naive and dumb. And yet the greatest fictional heroes (see most Superheroes, Disney movies, fantasy tales, or hell the vast majority of kids cartoons or even morality plays on TV like Star Trek) are the ones who spare their enemies again and again and again when attacked by them, and only kill them if they absolutely have to.

Next they're going to say it would have been equally good to slit the throats of the entire Linear Guild while they were tied up in a rope rather than incarcerate them.

After all, they repeatedly tried to kill the OoTS, and staged an absolutely disgusting murder scene in Cliffport that would make Hannibal Lecter blush (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0361.html). They're a threat to them, their family and other people they love, as well as society as a whole. Prison probably wouldn't hold them for long, this has already been proven. Their deaths, whether they are currently helpless or not, are justified by rational logic and the greater good!

I can see the comic now. While Roy is cleaving the head off of Thog, and Haley is stabbing cold iron arrows into Sabine's chest, Elan runs Nale through with his rapier singing, "I should kill thee with much cherishing. Good night, good night! parting is such sweet sorrow!"

And then the forum banter:
- Nice job OoTS! They totally deserved it. I'm gonna miss Thog though!
- Belkar is Chaotic Good.
- Awesome! I wonder if they gained a level from that?

:smalleek:.... :smallmad:...... :smallfrown:

[TheOOB]

What she did was an evil act. Killing an unarmed person by surprise...in revenge, is evil.

That said, she's not a paladin, so a single evil act, especially one so justified, won't change her alignment. Alignment is a general tendency of how you act, not a strait jacket.

[tomaO2]

She didn't kill Nale she he was tied up or the others.

Nale and his group are like the OOTS's personal rivals.

Therefore, since it was wrong to kill them it would be wrong to kill Crystal. Therefore it was a evil/neutral act. Right?

[Kish]

This is alot of pages to cover :(

My argument essentially is this, none of the clear cut examples of CG characters in fiction would do what she did.

She has never been a "clear cut" example of CG. She said so herself, remember? ("I'm Chaotic Good! Ish!")

[Murdim]

What she did was an evil act. Killing an unarmed person by surprise...in revenge, is evil.Killing an unarmed person by surprise is the ideal modus operandi for a rogue of any alignment. Revenge is one of the most common motive among fiction protagonists. Killing evil beings is pretty much the job of a Good-aligned adventurer, and that is even more obvious when these evil beings directly threatens their life. I don't see how you can conclude it's Evil. It may be, from a personnal moral point of view... but according to the standards in place in the story, it. Is. Not.

[Weimann]

My personal opinion is that it's kind of an irrelevant discussion. My second opinion is that terms of "good and evil" are ill defined in these cases, and my third opinion is that alignment is credited with too much of a characters behaviour.

Alignment, as described by the name, is the way the character leans. It's the direction in which her actions tend to go in a default situation. I can imagine that reactions such as this one, where a mutual hatred runs way back, overshadows the alignment with actual facts. This is not a "general situation", this is one where her feelings dating back a long, long time come up to the surface.

In short, it's an outlier, a sample both too small and special to be be representative of the population of actions she has taken in her days. Relying on it to make a forecast of future actions would be like looking at the sales of turkey during Thanksgiving and assume those numbers hold true for the entire year.

However, if you don't like my reasoning here, there are points to be made for the point that it is indeed representative of her alignment.

Now, I'm not an expert on D&D, but lets have a look at what actually happened, using D&D definitions. Haley is supposed to be Chaotic Good.

Chaotic meaning that she cares little for rules, "honourable combat" and the like, Good meaning that she by default cares for people who have done her no harm (see for example the Resistance in that city I forgot the name of). Good does NOT have to mean caring for EVERYone; if so, Good people would be pretty useless in combat.

To me, sneak attacking a character that is clearly evil (she kills people and are hinted to take enjoyment in the action) seems to fulfil these requisites. It's unlawful and dishonourable, beacuse hey, screw the rules, I'm Chaotic. And it's Good, since it means the end of an Evil character, no more to harrass innocents.

Edit: Oh, yeah, and as has been stated above, she has said herself to be Chaotic Goodish. So, moot point :P

[homeosapiens]

Don't you think that's kind of a naive viewpoint there? "We're the good guys so we wouldn't resort to questionable deeds even when given the opportunity"?
This kind of black-and-white point of view is exactly what bothers me about the whole alignment discussion on the boards here. It's the naive and dangerous assumption that you're allowed to do almost everything as long as you manage to put the label "good" on your forehead.
Well poles never murdered civilians to get more territory and for Germany that was the whole point.


Russo-Polish War - Poland was dissatisfied with Curzon Line as its border and so it invaded a weakened Russia (during Russian Civil War) in an attempt to gain more territory.
Actually tou are tottaly wrong. Russia attacked first and Poland won just becouse of Piłsudski war genius. Later there was 1 agresive act of poland but it was not to Russia but to Lithuania and what more - the terrain which Poland took had polish nationalty as majority. This would be ok with what Woodrow Wilson declared as a intent of Wersal's Tweety.

I am not gonna post again on the "Haley did bad" thing again cause u guy's are just unable to be convinced to any other thinking than yours.



Wow.. just.. wow.
My faith in humanity died a little reading that.

My faith in your consideration about dnd morality died too. Let us all think like Celia and Elan! That is Good! Let us all get killed! We gonna get to good afterlife and they world will die, but whatever! We are the good guys! We dont kill people!

[Murdim]

And it's Good, since it means the end of an Evil character, no more to harrass innocents.Again : Crystal is human and has a name, she's infinitely more worthy to live than your average dungeon monster. No matter she's more evil, more dangerous and more personnaly engaged to kill the protagonists than pretty much any non-Outsider Always Chaotic Evil creature, since she's a proper character. Mooks are meant to be slaughtered ; but major villains need to be spared, to prove the heroes' heroism.

... and they find Haley has a dubious sense of morality ? What the HECK ?

[Lord Seth]

This is alot of pages to cover :(You're joking, right? One strip, and suddenly you feel the need to head over to the site and edit lots of pages to reflect your perceived change of Haley's alignment?

Incidentally, "a lot" is two words.


Again : Crystal is human and has a name, she's infinitely more worthy to live than your average dungeon monster. No matter she's more evil, more dangerous and more personnaly engaged to kill the protagonists than pretty much any Always Chaotic Evil creature, since she's a proper character. Mooks are meant to be slaughtered ; but major villains need to be spared, to prove the heroes' heroism.Okay, I'm confused, is this supposed to be sarcasm or not?

[Raging Gene Ray]

Next they're going to say it would have been equally good to slit the throats of the entire Linear Guild while they were tied up in a rope rather than incarcerate them.

After all, they repeatedly tried to kill the OoTS, and staged an absolutely disgusting murder scene in Cliffport that would make Hannibal Lecter blush (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0361.html). They're a threat to them, their family and other people they love, as well as society as a whole. Prison probably wouldn't hold them for long, this has already been proven. Their deaths, whether they are currently helpless or not, are justified by rational logic and the greater good!

You know, that strawman argument you set up there is actually kind of convincing. What's the counter to it?

By the way, the decision to let the LG live when they were in Azure City wasn't based on mercy. It was based on the assumption that Nale had a cleric who would just resurrect him anyway, and Sabine is an Evil Outsider, so she'd just get poofed back to the Lower Planes.

[Underground]

This is a troll thread, right? LOTS of chaotic good characters have sneak attacked non-hostile enemies.

You love TVTropes so much, read the "Anti-hero" page.

Or just watch "Star Wars" - Han shot first, after all. Han Solo was anything but clearly chaotic neutral in the beginning of the original movies. I hardly could think of a character that was MORE clearly chaotic neutral.

It was only later that he shifted to a good alignment, where its not clear if he was chaotic good, neutral good, or maybe even lawful good. In any case he shifted closer to Princess Leia. But not at the moment when he "shot first". He had not even heard of Leia at that moment.

AND Han shot first because the other guy was about to shoot as well. Even a lawful good character would shoot in self defense, which it clearly was, in this case.

[derfenrirwolv]

Well lets see...

She just found out that not only has the guild been taking 50% of her profits for years, but that the head of said guild is the reason her father has been languishing in a Tyranian prison. She was roped into NOT killing him by Celia, at the cost of over 100,000 gold peices. Said gold peices, which she probably doesn't have anymore, were going to go to the person who 1) imprisoned her father AND 2) tried to have her killed.

The only reasons she DIDN"T do it were 1) She needed Roy back and 2) She didn't have an escape plan. 1 has been accomplished, V just provided 2.

[Totally Guy]

Belkar orchestrated these events. By not killing when dramatically appropriate he instead said that it was Haley who had to do it for the greater evil. Same as when he taught the cleric violence.

I like the new direction for Belkar but never thought he'd actually be this effective.

[Ridureyu]

We have no evidence at all that Haley killed Crystal. There were no witnesses, DNA tests can't be trusted, and the arrow wounds just can't match hers. All of you people are just being mysoginistic, always blaming the woman.

[Iain]

The Guild and Celia have both helped bring out Haley's less Good-ish side, yes. Since the cellar, realising how much she hated the guild members, Haley has been enjoying killing them. Celia's deal has pushed her further that way.
The murder of Crystal could have quite easily have been argued to be a Neutral act if it wasn't so clear that Haley was doing it for revenge, and that she really enjoyed doing it.
Alignment change? I don't know. It depends where she goes from here. She has done a lot of good recently, one evil act doesn't have to mean a fall from grace. She could still be CG, or she could be CN - her behaviour isn't inconsistent with either. Belkar, if he lives long enough, will likely try to push her towards evil (into Neutrality), but Elan's influence will likely pull her the other way. And maybe Roy's, too.

[Weimann]

I think that as soon as Haley understood that they had a Teleport out of there, she took her chance. Those two have been itching to kill each other for decades. It had to happen sometime, and Haley just got to choose the point.

[Charles Phipps]

Han Solo was anything but clearly chaotic neutral in the beginning of the original movies. I hardly could think of a character that was MORE clearly chaotic neutral.

It was only later that he shifted to a good alignment, where its not clear if he was chaotic good, neutral good, or maybe even lawful good. In any case he shifted closer to Princess Leia. But not at the moment when he "shot first". He had not even heard of Leia at that moment.

AND Han shot first because the other guy was about to shoot as well. Even a lawful good character would shoot in self defense, which it clearly was, in this case.

I suppose it depends on whether you think Han shifted alignment at the Death Star trench run or whether he was always Chaotic Good, just less than eager to become a wanted enemy of the Galactic Empire.

[Spoomeister]

If Crystal were a monster NPC, or a plain ol monster, rather than a human NPC, there wouldn't be nearly this level of angst over what Haley did.

I'm sure many people wouldn't be horrified at Haley committing murder if it were Redcloak.

Heck, one of the central storylines of the comic, which many people were rooting for, was Roy going out of his way to take revenge on Xykon by seeking him out and trying to kill him, even though Xykon hadn't tried to kill Roy.

All about perspective, really.

[Murdim]

The Guild and Celia have both helped bring out Haley's less Good-ish side, yes. Since the cellar, realising how much she hated the guild members, Haley has been enjoying killing them. Celia's deal has pushed her further that way.Actually, that was the other way : that was only while killing them (and after thinking that would be "the hardest thing I've ever had to do), that Haley realised how much she hated her former guildmates. Why ? Because they all are murdering, wife-beating, dogfight-organizing bastards. Please, even ROY would do the same in this situation.

[PId6]

I'm kind of hesitant at replying any more since it's extremely off topic but it's a little hard to resist.


Well poles never murdered civilians to get more territory and for Germany that was the whole point.
Please don't make such black and white blanket statements like that. Many Poles joined in with Germans after its invasion in rounding up/detaining Jews and yes, often killing them as well. The same can be said of the Czechs, the French, and pretty much anywhere else Hitler invaded. Never assume anybody's pure good (or pure evil for that matter) on account of their race or nationality.


Actually tou are tottaly wrong. Russia attacked first and Poland won just becouse of Piłsudski war genius. Later there was 1 agresive act of poland but it was not to Russia but to Lithuania and what more - the terrain which Poland took had polish nationalty as majority. This would be ok with what Woodrow Wilson declared as a intent of Wersal's Tweety.
The way I was taught was that Poland invaded Russia first due to dissatisfaction with the Curzon Line as its border. Lenin was fairly occupied at the time with Russian Civil War, peasant rebellions, famines here and there, etc so he wasn't really in much of a position to invade anyone. It was only after Poland invaded the Ukraine (which was part of Russia at the time) that the Red Army counterattacked and pushed back almost as far as Warsaw.

And no, I'm not Russian; this came from an American classroom. A quick search of the internet seems to agree with me:


Poland invaded Russia in April, after demanded a return to the boundries of 1772. The Poles were intially very succesful capturing Kiev and much of the Ukraine. The Soviets counterattacked, driving off the Poles and advanced towards Warsaw.Link (http://www.historycentral.com/Europe/Russo-PolishWar.html)


After minor conflicts in 1919, in April 1920 a Polish force invaded Ukraine, took Kiev in May. The Soviet Red Army launched a counteroffensive and reached the Vistula near Warsaw in August 1920...Link (http://www.zum.de/whkmla/military/betwwars/russopol19191921.html)

I won't say I'm definitely right here since any account of history can be wrong. However, based on what I've been taught and from what I see, this seems fairly accurate to me.

I admit though that my course didn't cover too much on internal Polish history except as it related to general European events so for example, all I know about Pilsudski is that he's some kind of military dictator. But that's a whole other issue...

[jamroar]

If Crystal were a monster NPC, or a plain ol monster, rather than a human NPC, there wouldn't be nearly this level of angst over what Haley did.

Given that there was as much outcry over V. commiting familicide on the even less involved nameless supposedly alway evil black dragons, this statement is completely baseless.

[lord_khaine]

i actualy dont considder Haley murdering Crystal on its own a very evil act, but it as someone allready mentioned it was done after a truce had been declared, making it an act of betrayal, and thats about as evil as it gets.

[bramblepatch]

She didn't kill Nale she he was tied up or the others.

Nale and his group are like the OOTS's personal rivals.

Therefore, since it was wrong to kill them it would be wrong to kill Crystal. Therefore it was a evil/neutral act. Right?

I don't think she's ever had an easy opportunity to kill off Sabine (remember, she's still not even sure what Sabine's vulnerabilities are), though, and that would be the only real parallel to this situation. Like Crystal, Sabine is a really personal enemy of Haley's. Nale... is not. Thog is definitely not. The rest of the Guild has too high a turnover rate to even approach being a meaningful kill for her.

I think that if she had a clear shot at Sabine, a weapon she knew would be effective, and a sure way to get away before the rest of the Guild could retaliate, Haley would take the shot. That's effectively what she did with Crystal. Remember, Haley and Crystal have been itching to kill each other since they were teenagers. I really don't think it's so surprising that Haley finally did it.

... of course, just because it was in line with Haley's established character doesn't mean it was an admirable action. Personally, I think she's been skirting the border between CG and CN for quite a while now.

[Killer Angel]

If Crystal were a monster NPC, or a plain ol monster, rather than a human NPC, there wouldn't be nearly this level of angst over what Haley did.


All about perspective, really.

first note: I'm not sure it's completely true... it depends most on how the character / monster is depicted. We've seen a lot of playgrounders with sympathy for the black dragon.

second note: I think this is the sixth thread on the subject Haley Vs. Crystal. Maybe a little too much? :smallamused:

[Avilan the Grey]

i actualy dont considder Haley murdering Crystal on its own a very evil act, but it as someone allready mentioned it was done after a truce had been declared, making it an act of betrayal, and thats about as evil as it gets.

Haley never agreed to any truce.*
And again, I don't see this as murder at all. It is, in our world, but in a D&D world it's "business as usual".

Edit: Well I put that the wrong way. It's not as much "business as usual" as "Usual behavior by 'Heroes'" in D&D worlds.

*She never even authorized Celia to speak on her behalf, so the agreement is void. Celia forcing her into this position is also one of those technically Good acts that really are just loathsome.

[Raging Gene Ray]

it was done after a truce had been declared, making it an act of betrayal, and thats about as evil as it gets.

The thing is, Haley didn't want that truce, Celia dragged her into it and only revealed some of the strings attached to it after the fact.
I don't think it was so much a personal hatred of Crystal (although that couldn't have helped), but wanting to break free of Bozzok and the chains Celia tied her to him with.

[Avilan the Grey]

I definitely think that this is the main reason for the outcry. Haley did not do anything that any Good character has done 1000 before: Killing an Evil aligned sentient creature for Fun and Profit (I don't see how it is morally more wrong to kill a sentient creature for Revenge rather than XP and Gold).

[Reisender]

The whole idea of adventuring parties invading homes of sentient beings and killing them all off in order to gain gold and xp is totally messed up and as questionable as the executions committed by oots members. (Kubota and Crystal)
But that's not the point. I fairly enjoyed the last strip and thought it was pretty funny. Also, i cheered at V for sparing us another tedious trial scene. But V as well as Haley are fictional characters. They're supposed to entertain us. What really disturbs me, and thats the reason why i'm argueing here, is the reaction of the board members who are labeling such outright brutal and lawless behaviour as just. It's called "as-long-as-the-good-guys-are-doing-it,-it's-totally-ok-ianism" and can be applied to lots of situations, for example:
-As long as it's the good guys throwing atomic bombs on civillians, it's totally ok.
-As long as it's the good guys torturing innoncent, it's totally ok
-As long as It's the protagonists executing defenseless enemies, it's totally ok.

It's not the souls of comic characters i'm concerned about here, it's the ethical sanity of the readers.

[Cracklord]

Horrible?
Hilarious.

It was cut and dry morality. Not legal, but not evil.

[Edhelras]

What she did was an evil act. Killing an unarmed person by surprise...in revenge, is evil.

That said, she's not a paladin, so a single evil act, especially one so justified, won't change her alignment. Alignment is a general tendency of how you act, not a strait jacket.

Very important point here: People tend to think in terms of paladins, who have, by definition, a stick up the a$$. For other people, there is much more room for maneuvering. Even a CG character (in DnD) can do a couple of clearly evil acts without "falling from grace" - because falling is a class feature of paladins, not of any other class.

One single act would have to be of tremendous proportions if it should, by itself, cause an alignment shift in a character who was previously well within the realm of her stated alignment. I agree that Haley has described herself as CG-ish, so theoretically, a minor evil act could be enough to push her over into CN.

I don't think it's right to view the murder of Crystal so harshly, however. First of all - the surprise thingy has nothing to do with it. If Sneak Attacking people was to be viewed as Evil, it would not be possible with Good or Neutral-aligned Rogues. They abound, hence Sneak Attack cannot be seen as Evil in any way. Although from a RL perspective, we might judge it as "unfair" or "bad sportsmanship". RL, not DnD.

Haley had plenty of reasons to kill Crystal, both for revenge and as preemption. In my view, a DM should be careful to "push" an alignment change on an unwilling player. Sure, if Haley's player wanted her to slide into CN, the player and the DM might agree that this was the act that did it. But if the player gave credible non-Evil reasons why Haley did as she did, only a bad or unexperienced DM would force-rule an alignment change based on only this action. However, if a player repeatedly lets her player commit dubious actions like murdering defenseless character outside combat situations, the DM should warn the player that these actions will at one point carry consequences, alignmentwise.

[Avilan the Grey]

Reisender: The problem I have with this is that people are trying to force IRL moral values into a system with frickin' Alignments!

We either have to decide that no one in OOTS has ever been Good, because they have all done this before. Or we have to realize that trying to fit our morals into the system of D&D does not work!.

I agree, in our world the hypocrisy is exactly what you say above. In D&D the hypocrisy is not because of Good Guy but because of Species.

[Dixieboy]

The anoying drow with the big panther.

He's CG

he kills people quite often, innocents too.

[Murdim]

Guess some people (mostly of the "HALEY IS BECOMING/HAS BECOME CN OMG" kind) need to reread the Greysky City arc from the beginning to the end.

This scene is shocking because it's an anathema to the standard heroic convention who says you can kill ruthlessly as many mooks as you want, as long as you act Stupid Good with the true villains "not to be like them". But I don't see how it could be morally worse than killing "Usually Neutral Evil" goblins for loot and XP (i.e the adventurers' job).

[Dixieboy]

'kay

let me put it this way

"Monsters are not humans."

End of discussion.

[Iain]

Actually, that was the other way : that was only while killing them (and after thinking that would be "the hardest thing I've ever had to do), that Haley realised how much she hated her former guildmates. Why ? Because they all are murdering, wife-beating, dogfight-organizing bastards. Please, even ROY would do the same in this situation.
It's not that she's been killing them - she's had a good reason for that - it's that she's been shown enjoying it. We seem to be seeing a bit of her darker side coming to the fore. Remember when Bozzok was defeated (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0619.html), and Celia asked whether she really wanted more bloodshed, and she said, 'kinda, yeah!' That isn't her -Good- side showing!

[Reisender]

I couldn't agree with you more, Avilan. Real life values and DnD values aren't compatible.
So, from a readers point of view i'm totally ok with what Haley did. I thought it was hilarious.
But i'm not ok with readers arguing like these kind of actions would be fine, just and good outside the bonds of fiction, because i think that kind of reasoning is pretty dangerous. It works the other way around, too, you know? Trying to fit DnD morals into the real world doesn't work either. And that's exactly my point here.

[Murdim]

It's called "as-long-as-the-good-guys-are-doing-it,-it's-totally-ok-ianism" and can be applied to lots of situations, for example:
-As long as it's the good guys throwing atomic bombs on civillians, it's totally ok.
-As long as it's the good guys torturing innoncent, it's totally ok
-As long as It's the protagonists executing defenseless enemies, it's totally ok.Guess you took Strawmen as a favored enemy.

[Charles Phipps]

The anoying drow with the big panther.

He's CG

he kills people quite often, innocents too.

I don't recall him ever doing so and I'm a bit of a fan. He has, however, killed a ridiculous amount of nearly every race on the planet and engaged in quite a bit of morally questionable behavior.

Including invading Luskan under dubious pretenses in a blatant homage to the Iraqi war.

(No politics, that was what Bob Salvatore was going for)

[Kalbron]

Wow.. just.. wow.
My faith in humanity died a little reading that.


Funnily enough, after reading your post, so did mine! Good job!

Oh and, you know all those examples you mentioned? The ones where the evil guys don't get killed by the hero? Count the number of times that the bad guys get a karmic death to avoid staining the hero's hands. Then count the number of times when the villain comes back, kills more innocents, only to be let go again by the heros.

Then, somehow, try to justify to me why the hero should continually allow these people to commit evil acts. Because that's what they're doing. If nothing else can stop the villain from being evil except their death then their death is a good thing.

There is no law in Greysky city. Crystal would never be punished for her crimes. She would instead get a raise. And more people to kill. Yet it was wrong to stop her?

I can only hope you are never ever allowed in a position where people are relying upon you to protect them.

[Murdim]

It's not that she's been killing them - she's had a good reason for that - it's that she's been shown enjoying it. We seem to be seeing a bit of her darker side coming to the fore.The same kind of cruelty towards antagonists didn't prevent Roy to go to Celestia after his death, and not "even merits a blip on the Malev-o-meter".


Remember when Bozzok was defeated (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0619.html), and Celia asked whether she really wanted more bloodshed, and she said, 'kinda, yeah!' That isn't her -Good- side showing!The only blood she wanted to shed at the moment, was the one of the ******* who sold her father to an Evil Overlord in order to take control of the Thieves' Guild. Again, What Would Roy Do ?

[Iain]

The only blood she wanted to shed at the moment, was the one of the ******* who sold her father to an Evil Overlord in order to take control of the Thieves' Guild. Again, What Would Roy Do ?
Roy is undoubtedly Good, but he isn't the standard for all Good acts to be measured against!
Take a step back for a moment. In Haley's position, many good people would want to kill Bozzok and Crystal. That doesn't make it a good act, though. Killing someone when there's a reasonable alternative, killing someone for revenge, enjoying killing someone - none of these are Good. They may sometimes be Neutral, and can certainly be Evil.
Again, murdering Crystal like that could easily have been a Neutral act with different motivations, but for revenge? Evil. Not the worst sin ever, and very understandable, but clearly Evil.

[lord_khaine]

Haley never agreed to any truce.*
And again, I don't see this as murder at all. It is, in our world, but in a D&D world it's "business as usual".

Edit: Well I put that the wrong way. It's not as much "business as usual" as "Usual behavior by 'Heroes'" in D&D worlds.

*She never even authorized Celia to speak on her behalf, so the agreement is void. Celia forcing her into this position is also one of those technically Good acts that really are just loathsome.



The thing is, Haley didn't want that truce, Celia dragged her into it and only revealed some of the strings attached to it after the fact.
I don't think it was so much a personal hatred of Crystal (although that couldn't have helped), but wanting to break free of Bozzok and the chains Celia tied her to him with.

actualy, she did agree to it when she stopped fighting the thiefs guild back then, and instead had them help her steal golem Roy.

[Edhelras]

The recent hot "is Haley now Evil?" debates are interesting, yet raises one recurring point: It seems to me a lot of people have misconceptions as to how un-good the Neutral alignment really is. Also, many people seem to believe that one single act unbefitting of your alignment causes you to slide directly into another alignment. To me, that's bad interpretation of the alignment rules and bad DM'ing.

Firstly, I would point to the Player's Handbook (PHB) which explicitly states that the Evil alignments are for the monsters and enemy NPCs. The PCs are supposed to be either Good or Neutral alignment. For some unknown reason (since I'm 40 years old, it's impossible for me to guess at anything other than immaturity as the cause) some players like their characters to be kind of "cool" Evil PCs - although that will make the campaign quite difficult for the DM.

In reality, though, I think most of these presumed "Evil" PCs aren't really Evil, rather they're quite wicked Neutral characters. People tend to underestimate just how friggin' Evil is Evil, and they underestimate how much room for nasty, selfish acts and attitudes there are in the Neutral alignment.

Remember, a typical member of an adventuring party will tend to do a lot of Good stuff. Firstly, there is the party interaction, where loyalty, helping each other out, sharing resources - all this drags you towards Good unless you insist on being an a$$hole. And you better do that elegantly and funnily, or you'll soon get kicked out of the group. Secondly, most of the party's interaction with the game world involves doing a lot of Good actions. Inevitably, most campaigns will have you help people in need, weaker people, against Evil adversaries. That is, in just about any moral system, the way you can portray yourself as a hero. And, being a HERO is what DnD is all about.

With all these Good actions, you'll easily end up in the Good alignment box. If you want to be Neutral, you can choose to be aloof and unengaged, in a druidic sort of way, but that can be both difficult and, ultimately, boring. After all, gaming is a social activity, staying unengaged isn't very fun in the long run.

So most players who want to have their character Neutral will have to mix in a fair share of actions and attitudes that are selfish, nasty, miserly, even out-right Evil, to maintain their Neutral alignment. In fact, the attitude needed to be Neutral is often so "bada$$" that it would be hard to accept in a RL society. In real life, we expect so much nicety and humility from each other, a Neutral person (especially a CN, who didn't even obey the common rules we made to guide our lives) would be viewed as quite wicked and probably even Evil-minded.

The Evil alignments, now, they're just so unfathomably Evil, that they're hard to understand for us RL humans. Remember, these are the savage humanoids. Or the psychopathical mastermind wizards. Or the tyrannical dictatorships of the Zhentarim. Truly, they vary as to how much they express their evilness. Point is, they're destructive and hateful, to a degree that's not really compatible with having a nice life in an ordinary community. The Evil alignments exists - in DnD - mostly to provide us, the players, with adversaries that we may oppose and kill with little regret. A clear-cut enemy that our paladin can even Detect at will. People who are so deeply entrenched in their evilness that they can always be trusted to cause mischief, horror or suffering, to allow us, the heroes, to rise to the occasion and shine as the saviours of the good guys.

Being Evil isn't something you slip into just like that. It's a way of life, or rather, it's a label that we put on all those creatures that the DM spawns just to let the Good guys have something to kill. Or to add flavor.

I know there are a lot of players now who will say "no no, I'm Evil, Evil rocks," etc. But I have only rarely met a player who does Evil well, most players do it either poorly, or they use the "muahaha" only as a cliché vestment around their Neutral (usually CN) character. If you disagree with me, just read again the PHB. Of course you might house-rule another alignment system, but it's not entirely easy to beat the professional game developers...

[Puppeteer]

Why Haley did it...

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a122/Sonofjango615/Selfdefensefireflymotivation.jpg

[Tamburlaine]

Would people consider it an evil act if Haley had - after shooting Crystal with the arrows - merely stolen her stuff, drained one of Crystal's levels, and taken 5000gp of the guild's gold?

[Ancalagon]

Someone please mark this as "sticky" so all those "is X evil?" or "is Y not evil?" discussions are over?

[petersohn]

I'm more concerned about the motives than the actual murder. Haley didn't do it for preventing her from doing anything: she knows she will get raised. She did it for the sole purpose of revenge. And that's something I consider evil.

On a side note, if it was good to kill Chrysrtal like this, I suppose killing the whole guild in their sleeps would directly raise you to Chaotic Good heaven. Or, V should have just nuked the whole guild HQ and consider it a good act.

[petersohn]

Whoops! Sorry for duplicating.

[petersohn]

Then I suppose Belkar is a poorly played CN character.

[snafu]

Why Haley Did It:

She wanted the money.

Haley owes the guild a lot of money. But that doesn't fit with Haley's own plans. She has no intention of paying them and is about to teleport away without telling anybody. If she did so, then once they found out the guild would likely send Crystal after her to get it back - or perhaps just to kill her. So before she leaves she takes the opportunity to kill Crystal first.

And while she is doing this deed, she says nothing about any past personal quarrel. Nothing about the violence or threats Crystal had offered her in the fighting earlier on. She speaks only of the loot she will take from Crystal's room, and the dues she will not pay to Bozzok.

Haley killed Crystal for money. It's a fairly straightforward gangland killing, the sort of thing that happens all the time when members of organised crime syndicates quarrel in the presence of large amounts of cash. Haley killed Crystal and will now take the money and run.

[Avilan the Grey]

Then I suppose Belkar is a poorly played CN character.

Why?

The whole point with Belkar is to show a (quite) well-played Evil character in a Good-Neutral adventure party.

[Edhelras]

Then I suppose Belkar is a poorly played CN character.

I was about to mention this: I'm not entirely certain, but one way of interpreting that dream-sequence with Lord Shojo that Belkar had in the basement, and his "character development" - I think it might be seen as a comment on how difficult it is for a PC to be Evil and not end up just being destructive, or ruining the fun for the others, and not having a real motivation for why on earth you're playing this game.

I agree that Belkar most certainly seems like an Evil character, and he hardly ever did anything Good to compensate for it. But after the Mark of Justice was removed, well, he's been a team member, helping the others out, being (temporarily, and in his own way) kind to Jenny - mind you, perhaps he's turning into a very nasty CN character after all?