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Archpaladin Zousha
2009-04-27, 11:30 PM
I've been toying with the idea of playing a Gish-type character, multiclassing in fighter and wizard before taking the Spellsword prestige class, and was wondering what a workable setup would be.

Before anyone reccomends the Duskblade as a better choice, I know it's more efficient than all that fancy multiclassing, but I wanna try something a little different. Furthermore, duskblade spellcasting caps out at 5th level spells, and even if while I was a spellsword my spells capped out at about the same place, there was room for more levels of wizard to increase that cap. I was inspired by the concept of the Counterspeller presented in the old 3.0 supplement, the Hero Builder's Guidebook and thought it'd be cool to make a character like that. For those of you who don't know, the Counterspeller archetype was a multiclass fighter/wizard build that focused on counterspelling enemy spellcasters so they could get in close and attack with a melee weapon. I even toyed with the idea of adding the Occult Slayer prestige class for a little while, but I realized that would kill my casting progression, which is already hampered by the levels of Spellsword. Plus, I found out that focusing entirely on fighting enemy spellcasters was a bit too specific when there was even more awesome stuff I could do with my spells. As a result, I dropped the idea of being a Counterspeller, and have focused entirely on being a Spellsword gish

Also, the stats may seem a bit on the low end. This is intentional. The DM I play with uses a system he calls "15-Down" which essentially means your highest score is 15, and you work down from there, giving the following ability scores:

15, 14, 13, 12, 11 and 10.

I also plan on playing a half-elf. I know half-elves suck, but I like the flavor of them. I'm not looking for something that WILL DESTROY ALL here, just a way to make the best of what I have to work with.

So without further ado, here's my build's first draft:

Race: Half-Elf

Stats: 14 STR, 11 DEX, 13 CON, 15 INT, 12 WIS, 10 CHA

Skills: Knowledge (Arcana), Spellcraft, Concentration, Craft (weaponsmithing) when my Intelligence gets higher, and possibly Craft (armorsmithing) if it gets higher.

Fighter 1 Skill Focus (Concentration), Improved Toughness*
Wizard 1 Scribe Scroll*
Wizard 2 Combat Casting
Wizard 3
Wizard 4
Wizard 5 Practiced Spellcaster, Extend Spell*
Wizard 6
Spell 1
Spell 2 Somatic Weaponry, Improved Initiative*
Spell 3
Spell 4
Spell 5 Craft Magic Arms and Armor
Spell 6
Spell 7
Spell 8 Arcane Strike
Spell 9
Spell 10
Wizard 7 (General Feat)
Wizard 8
Wizard 9

* = bonus feat

I'll admit, the Fiendish feats I took mainly as filler because I'm not sure what else would help.

I know that in terms of equipment, I'm going to want an adamantine greatsword ASAP, and mithral armor as I take levels in Spellsword, culminating with mithral fullplate at Spellsword level 9. That way I won't have to worry about arcane spell failure at all. I know that without Practiced Spellcaster I cast spells as a 14th level wizard, but I'm not sure how much more the feat boosts my caster level.

I'm not sure what spells I should stick in my spellbook aside from the following spells, reccomended by Complete Mage:

1st: Enlarge Person
2nd: Bull's Strength
3rd: Displacement and Haste
4th: Trollform (Player's Handbook II) and/or Stoneskin
5th: Draconic Might (Spell Compendium)
6th: Tenser's Transformation
7th: Body of War (Spell Compendium)
8th: Lightning Ring (Spell Compendium)
9th: Dragonshape (Player's Handbook II, if I can cast spells of this level at all)

Am I forgetting anything? I'm not very good at optimization, so I don't know how good my numbers are. Is this workable? Can it be improved without changing the race or stats, or altering the classes too much?

Thank you for your patience and your kind attention. :smallsmile:

Chronos
2009-04-27, 11:50 PM
First of all, skip Tenser's Transformation. All it really gives you is BAB equal to your caster level, and your BAB will probably be within two or three points of your caster level anyway. Meanwhile, it also costs you your spellcasting, and uses up a rather valuable material component (too valuable to use every day, at least). If you can get access to Divine Power somehow (such as the Arcane Disciple feat), that might be worthwhile, since it's lower level, has no material cost, and doesn't stop spellcasting.

Second, since you have Complete Mage, look into Abjurant Champion. It's got full BAB and full spellcasting for five levels, and also gives you a variety of boosts to abjuration spells.

Third, good spells to get would also include all of the Bite of the Were-X spells, especially Bite of the Werebear, which gives you +16 Str and +8 Con.

Fourth, don't the Fiendish Heritage feats require spontaneous casting, like a sorcerer? And what are you planning on gaining from them, anyway?

streakster
2009-04-28, 12:15 AM
Improved without changing the race or stats? Of course! Just go Wizard/Warblade/Jade Phoenix Mage!:smallbiggrin:


Now, let's see. Some favorite gish spells of mine are whirling blade, greater mighty wallop, themagic weapon line, and vampiric touch (I'm not hurt. You're hurt.)

Feats? Take Arcane Strike. You'll love it. Somatic Weaponry lets you cast with full hands - your call on that one.

As for equipment, look into Twilight and Feycraft armor - they each reduce ASF, and can be applied to the armor you like. A crystal of arcane steel could be a real winner here too. Spell storing and/or bloodstone would be awesome as well.

More later, mayhaps.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-04-28, 12:15 AM
First of all, skip Tenser's Transformation. All it really gives you is BAB equal to your caster level, and your BAB will probably be within two or three points of your caster level anyway. Meanwhile, it also costs you your spellcasting, and uses up a rather valuable material component (too valuable to use every day, at least). If you can get access to Divine Power somehow (such as the Arcane Disciple feat), that might be worthwhile, since it's lower level, has no material cost, and doesn't stop spellcasting.
Interesting idea, but I don't know if I'd have the Wisdom to qualify for Arcane Disciple, or if I do, certainly not enough for the high end spells. I know this might sound like cheating, but the DM I game with eliminated material components, since he didn't feel like keeping track of them.

Second, since you have Complete Mage, look into Abjurant Champion. It's got full BAB and full spellcasting for five levels, and also gives you a variety of boosts to abjuration spells.[QUOTE]
Actually, Abjurant Champion was another PRC I was thinking of. Where would those levels fit in the build best?
[QUOTE]Third, good spells to get would also include all of the Bite of the Were-X spells, especially Bite of the Werebear, which gives you +16 Str and +8 Con.
What books are these in?

Fourth, don't the Fiendish Heritage feats require spontaneous casting, like a sorcerer? And what are you planning on gaining from them, anyway?
According to Complete Mage, the Fiendish and Fey Heritage feats only require a non-good or non-lawful alignment respectively. I had planned on playing a neutral or maybe lawful neutral character who kills evil spellcasters that he believes abuse their gifts. Kind of like a Batman for the arcane.

As I said though, those feats are mainly filler because I couldn't think of anything better to stick there. They're all easily replaceable, I just don't know with what. I was thinking Power Attack, but Complete Mage warned against it because unless you're a hexblade or a duskblade you won't have the BAB to trade for the damage. I was also considering some feats reccomended by the Counterspeller setup, namely Improved Sunder (to sunder the magic staff, sword, etc.), and Blind-Fight (to offset magical obfuscations). Improved Sunder would necessitate Power Attack though, and if what I've heard is true, sundering is situational at best. Many of the enemies we're facing in our current campaign (where I play a paladin/fighter/divine crusader/ordained champion) do have weapons and such, but if I were to break them, we can't sell them later. Plus, enemies like dragons and succubi don't use weapons or shields, and the clockwork soldiers (robots) we've encountered use AK-47s.

streakster
2009-04-28, 12:23 AM
Oooh! Spells: sadism and ruin delver's fortune and Heroics!

Sadism would fit well with the fiend theme, if you keep that idea.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-04-28, 12:27 AM
Improved without changing the race or stats? Of course! Just go Wizard/Warblade/Jade Phoenix Mage!:smallbiggrin:
Ha ha, very funny.:smalltongue:

I should pay more attention when I type.

Now, let's see. Some favorite gish spells of mine are whirling blade, greater mighty wallop, themagic weapon and vestment line, and vampiric touch (I'm not hurt. You're hurt.)
I know I'll definately be taking magic weapon and vestment, if only for enchanting purposes later

Feats? Take Arcane Strike. You'll love it. Somatic Weaponry lets you cast with full hands - your call on that one.
Isn't Arcane Strike channelling spells through your weapon? Spellswords can already do that.

What's Somatic Weaponry from?

As for equipment, look into Twilight and Feycraft armor - they each reduce ASF, and can be applied to the armor you like. A crystal of arcane steel could be a real winner here too. Spell storing and/or bloodstone would be awesome as well.
Heck if I have a Twilight enchantment I wouldn't need to have mithral fullplate. Spellswords can ignore 30% of arcane spell failure at 9th level, which fullplate is 35%. If Twilight, which reduces that by 10%, were on it, I could wear admantine fullplate and not even care! Awesome!

Hmm...maybe if I got spikes on the adamantine fulllplate I could enchant them to be +1 spikes with some kind of elemental enchantment thrown on them. Couple that with Improved Grapple and EVERYONE'D be afraid to get close to me. Plus it'd look totally awesome!

EDIT: Never mind, I just checked up on the requirements for Improved Grapple, and it turns out that needs Improved Unarmed Strike, which requires a DEX of 13. I don't know if swapping my CON for my DEX is a good idea, and it'd be spending two feats anyway.

What's a crystal of arcane steel? Bloodstone? Would spell-storing be redundant?

I'm assuming it goes without saying that I should get the best headband of intellect I can find?

More later, mayhaps.
I look forward to it! :smallsmile:

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-04-28, 12:29 AM
Oooh! Spells: sadism and ruin delver's fortune and Heroics!

Sadism would fit well with the fiend theme, if you keep that idea.

What books are these from?

This is really the first time I've worked extensively with an arcane-based build.

lsfreak
2009-04-28, 12:44 AM
Arcane Strike lets you sacrifice spell slots for bonus attack/damage on melee.

EDIT: Ninja'd on the spells while looking them up, was thinking the Sadism feat or something and got confused/
/whistleslikenothinghappened

streakster
2009-04-28, 12:45 AM
OK, lets see...

Arcane Strike is sacrifice a spell, get bonus to attack and damage. Complete Warrior.

Somatic Weaponry is complete mage, I think.

Crystal of Arcane steel is MiC - when delievring a spell with a melee attack, if you have a crystal on your weapon, you get bonuses. I think attack bonuses.

Bloodstone is spellstoring, but only for vampiric touch. It also empowers, if memory serves.

Ignore Ruin Delver's Fortune - it takes CHA, I beleive. Mind slip - I'm generally entering a gish with a Sorc or other spontaneous base.

Heroics is spell compendium - you get a bonus fighter feat.

Sadism is BoVD - you gain bonuses based on damage inflicted.

I should dig up my old gishes and see what else I had that could be handy...

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-04-28, 12:53 AM
Okay, I read the stuff on Arcane Strike, and realized I was wrong. Somatic Weaponry actually looks pretty good, since I'll be using a two-handed weapon.

I'll add those to the build post haste.

However, I don't like being evil. Neutral I can handle, but evil uh-uh. So, I think I'll skip over Sadism. I don't have the BOVD anyway.

And how's this for a character pic?

http://fc09.deviantart.com/fs19/f/2007/259/1/c/Spirit_of_Fire__coloured__by_aautio.jpg

Keld Denar
2009-04-28, 01:44 AM
Somantic Weaponry isn't really an issue with a 2handed weapon, since you can freely take 1 hand off the weapon and put it back on on either side of casting. Where its really important is when you are TWF with a non-double weapon, because if you take 1 hand off your offhand weapon....it kinda...falls in the mud.

A feat you probably really want to look into is Minor Shapeshift. As long as you keep a 4th+ level spell from the Polymorph Subschool (like Trollshape or Bite of the X) memorized, you can spend a swift action to gain temp HP equal to your CL unlimited times per day. Thats like, infinite pseudo-preemptive healing.

Also, generally you take as few levels of Spellsword as you can, due to the loss of spellcaster levels.

Fighter1/Wizard6/Spellsword1/AbjChamp5/EldrichKnight7 only loses 2 spellcasting levels. Granted, you don't get the spell channeling, but its still really effective. Alternatively, you could swap out 4 levels of EK for 4 more levels of Spellsword. This loses you 2 more spellcasting levels (giving you 16/20), but giving you -15% ASF and Spell Channeling and a lolbonus feat.

A really neat trick is to combine Spell Channeling with the Whirling Blade spell. That allows you to deliver your angry death and destruction from a distance (with a Spellstoring Bloodstone weapon while channeling Vamp Touch for weapon damage + 3.5x Vampiric Touches).

Hope this helps, and best of luck to you.

Sinfire Titan
2009-04-28, 02:28 AM
Somantic Weaponry isn't really an issue with a 2handed weapon, since you can freely take 1 hand off the weapon and put it back on on either side of casting. Where its really important is when you are TWF with a non-double weapon, because if you take 1 hand off your offhand weapon....it kinda...falls in the mud.

A feat you probably really want to look into is Minor Shapeshift. As long as you keep a 4th+ level spell from the Polymorph Subschool (like Trollshape or Bite of the X) memorized, you can spend a swift action to gain temp HP equal to your CL unlimited times per day. Thats like, infinite pseudo-preemptive healing.

Also, generally you take as few levels of Spellsword as you can, due to the loss of spellcaster levels.

Fighter1/Wizard6/Spellsword1/AbjChamp5/EldrichKnight7 only loses 2 spellcasting levels. Granted, you don't get the spell channeling, but its still really effective. Alternatively, you could swap out 4 levels of EK for 4 more levels of Spellsword. This loses you 2 more spellcasting levels (giving you 16/20), but giving you -15% ASF and Spell Channeling and a lolbonus feat.

A really neat trick is to combine Spell Channeling with the Whirling Blade spell. That allows you to deliver your angry death and destruction from a distance (with a Spellstoring Bloodstone weapon while channeling Vamp Touch for weapon damage + 3.5x Vampiric Touches).

Hope this helps, and best of luck to you.

This. Alternatively, Warblade 1/Wizard 6/Jade Phoenix Mage 8/Abjurant Champion 5. BAB of +17, 9th level spells (barely though), and a number of useful tricks. Good aligned is a requirement, so the Fiendish touch thing is a bit of a no-go (but you can easily reflavor the JPM to be Evil, it's even in the Adaptation section).


Spellsword is not worth the full 10 levels. It is worth 3, at most (the average is actually 1). You end up losing 6 CLs from the PrC (this includes the level of Fighter), which puts you at 7th level spells and a caster level of 14 (nowhere near enough to penetrate SR of high level opponents).

Bluebeard
2009-04-28, 02:56 AM
Actually, Abjurant Champion was another PRC I was thinking of. Where would those levels fit in the build best?
If I were focusing on the Spellsword class itself, I'd do something like this:
Fighter 2/Wizard 4/Spellsword 5/Abjurant Champion 5/Spellsword 4.
7th level spells (not bad), 18 BA and no real weak levels (6 isn't going to be easy, but you're averaging around Ranger HP at that point and have Wraithstrike and Mirror Image).

If you think you can hold off on Spell Channeling, shift Abjurant Champion levels further forward. And if you don't think an extra Spell Channeling or two per day is worth losing a level or two of spell advancement, trade the last 4 Spellsword levels for Sacred Exorcist (CD) or Eldritch Knight.

F2/W4/SS1/A5/E8 is my usual gish build. No channeling might hurt, but it's only 5/day anyway.
Duskblade 3/W4/A5/SE8 would probably be my most basic approach to a channeler.

Honestly though, I wouldn't ever take more than 5 levels Spellsword. 4 levels is even iffy. 2 is questionable most of the time. You can cast in Twilight Mithril Fullplate (PHB2) with a Thistledown Undergarment from Spellsword level 1.
And after you get channeling at level 4, the class is over (but once you have level 4, you might as well get 5 too).

A pretty generic Gish spell list (in no particular order):

Level 1:
Enlarge Person -- Easy size increase. That's a pretty big deal when you care about combat maneuvers and Attacks of Opportunity.
Benign Transposition (SpC) -- Trade places with allies. Simple and always useful.
Nerveskitter (SpC) -- If you win initiative, you have more actions than the baddies.
Shield -- Short-term Shield bonus to AC. This is what Abjurant Champion is all about.
Mage Armor -- Drop it once you can use better armor without penalty. Until then, it's good.
Protection from [Alignment] -- a heap of protective abilities v. One alignment, flat-out immunity to mind control.


Level 2:
Heart of Air (CM) -- Mostly for combo-ing with the other "Heart of" chain for Fortification effects. But Feather Fall might come up some time.
Bull's Strength -- Only until you get a magic item with a constant Strength enhancement.
Mirror Image -- Become less likely to be hit. Simple.
False Life -- Long-duration Temporary HP.
Create Magic Tatoo (SpC) -- some cheap buffs. Nothing spectacular, but it helps with just about anything.
See Invisibility -- Invisibility is nasty and this does just what it says.
Wraithstrike (SpC) -- Turn the round's attacks into touch attacks. Simple. Honestly not great at low levels. When you have enough spell slots to both buff and fuel your Power Attack with this, it's golden.
Whirling Blade (SpC) -- Direct damage, but it's in disguise.

Level 3:
Heart of Water (CM) -- Freedom of Movement without even needing an action in combat. Also combines with other "Heart of" spells for Fortification.
Anticipate Teleport (SpC) -- Sure, the real Wizard is probably using this too, but it's solid for battlefield tactics.
Magic Circle Against [Alignment] -- Like Protection, but with a workable duration and an aura effect.
Haste -- Extra Speed, damage, attack and defense for the whole party. One of the best spells at this level.
Dimension Step (PHB2) -- Low-level short-range Teleportation. Affects the whole party.
Girallon's Blessing (SpC) Gain extra Arms. Increase Power Attack payoff or just attack directly. Decent duration.
Fly -- 3-dimensional battles are no longer a concern.
Greater Magic Weapon -- Long-duration Weapon Enhancement. Save dough.
Spiderskin (SpC) -- Natural Armor enhancement with hide bonuses. Decent duration.
Greater Mighty Wallop (RotD) -- This spell does a lot of damage and lasts a long time. It scales very quickly. If it's allowed, go for it.
Blink -- Crummy duration, but powerful effect. The 20% failure on your own attacks always feels higher.
Greater Mage Armor (SpC) -- By now you might have better armor, but this fills in as a backup.

Level 4:
Celerity (PHB2) -- Act out of turn.
Heart of Earth (CM) -- Bonuses against combat maneuvers, Temp HP and free Stoneskin effect. Stacks with other "Heart of" spells for Fortification.
Polymorph -- It can be broken, but it doesn't have to be. Take it if you can.
Greater Resistance (SpC) -- Long duration Resistance bonus on saves. Save some money.
Dimension Door -- Basic battlefield teleportation. No Somatic components.
Greater Invisibility -- Deny enemies their Dexterity bonuses, gain a +2 to attack, 50% miss with attacks against you and the baddies probably don't know where you are exactly. Short duration, but very useful.
Greater Mirror Image (PHB2) -- Immediate-cast replenishing Mirror Image effect. Handy.
Spell Enhancer (SpC) Increase CL for increased spell effects.
Trollshape (PHB2) -- A fairly crummy combat shapeshift, but a good source of self-healing.

Level 5
Draconic Poilymorph (Drac) -- Like a self-only Polymorph, but better in every way: 10 Min/level, 20 HD cap and untyped ability bonuses to boot.
Dimension Jumper (CM) -- Short-range teleport as a Move Action. A decent buff, but only when you have slots to spare.
Teleport -- Like Dimension Door, except you can do stuff between teleporting and your next turn. That's huge with Attack of Opportunity-based Gish.
Lord of the Sky (DM) -- Gain flight and a Swift Action damage/flight debuff per round.
Greater Blink (SpC) -- Without the miss chance, this is a decent spell. A bit overleveled, but when you have spell slots to spare, it's alright.
Greater Enlarge Person (SpC) if you aren't Polymorphing, this will save time in pre-combat buffs. Or it will provide a nice boost if you don't normally get an Enlarge in before fights.
Fiendform (SpC) -- This opens Outsider forms to Polymorph abuse. You probably won't be using this. But you could.
Heart of Fire (CM) -- I think this is worse than either of the earlier two "Heart of" spells, but it stacks with them for Fortification. And the speed boost doesn't hurt.
Overland Flight -- Fly all day. Might be useful, even though the flight is pretty awful.
Lightning Leap (CM) -- Combine damage with short-range Teleportation.
Lesser Spell Matrix (SpC) -- Burn a 5th level slot to Quicken a 3rd level Spell. It isn't bad, even though I like its normal form much more.
Bite of the Wereboar (SpC) -- The first of the Bite of ___ Spells I'd bother with due to short durations and enhancement bonuses.

Level 6
Superior Resistance (SpC) -- Save money with a 24-hour +6 Resistance to all saves.
True Seeing -- Knowing what you're fighting and where it is exactly helps a lot. The Components are expensive as hell, though. You'll Use this slot for Arcane Strike often if you prepare it.
Greater Heroism -- Not the best effects and terrible duration, but it's like an all-in-one Bard
Contingency -- Powerful for any character.
Brilliant Blade (SpC) -- Make all attacks with a weapon as Touch attacks. If Wraithstrike is too cheesy or you have something better to do with your Swift actions.
Antimagic Field -- Use this with Channeling or some form of Shaping and you'll outfight most enemies by its merits alone.
Bite of the Weretiger (SpC) -- Huge Strength & Con enhancements, natural weapons and bonus feats for a short duration.

Level 7
Spell Turning -- Decent duration, decent effect. A bit high-level to expect spare slots, but it can be nice when it works.
Brilliant Aura (SpC) -- Like Brilliant Blade, but for all of all your allies' attacks.
Elemental Body (SpC) -- gain Elemental immunities and abilities.
Arcane Spellsurge (DM) -- Quicken spells for rounds/level. This means you should be casting and full-attacking every round.
Spell Matrix (SpC) -- a Metamagic spell that stores two 3rd level spells to be cast as a Swift Action. Nice (if you can afford it).
Body of War (SpC) -- Restricted Polymorph is a pain. This eases that a bit. Costs your spellcasting, iirc.
Bite of the Werebear (SpC) -- Not a huge step up from Weretiger, but still a step.


Level 8
Mind Blank -- You might get this from a Chain-buffing party member, but it's good to have it for yourself.
Moment of Prescience -- a Powerful effect. It feels overleveled, but auto-winning Initiative against the non-casters is pretty powerful.
Irresistible Dance -- Sure, any target worth casting it on is probably immune, but you're one of the only characters who can practically use it without some outside source of spell reach.
Superior Invisibility (SpC) -- Longer duration and more powerful effect than Greater Invisibility. Maybe overleveled, but still powerful.
Veil of Undeath (SpC) -- take Undead abilities and Immunities.
Polymorph Any Object -- This spell can do anything.

Level 9
Absorption (SpC) -- If you know you'll be fighting casters, this can be a very useful spell.
Timestop -- Time constraints are for other people
Shapechange -- It's all it's cracked up to be.
Dragonshape (PHB2) -- Crummy for this level. But if Polymorph is being restricted, it might work.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-04-28, 03:34 AM
There are many, many ways to make a Gish who gets 9th level spells and at least +16 BAB by level 20. No class feature is worth missing out on this. You could go Fighter 1/ Wizard 6/ Spellsword 5/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Ruathar 3 and accomplish this without missing out on Channel Spell. Ruathar is in Races of the Wild, check WotC's indexes page (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/lists) if you need to know what book something is from. I'd make the levels go Fighter 1/ Wizard 6/ Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Spellsword 4/ Ruathar 3.

If you can, go with the Fighter feat Wizard variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wizard) from UA to get a Fighter bonus feat at Wizard 1 and 5 instead of Scribe Scroll and the regular Wizard bonus feat. It's also a good idea to ask the DM to let you replace Combat Casting with Skill Focus: Concentration as a prerequisite for Abjurant Champion. Feats you should definitely take include Power Attack, Practiced Spellcaster, get Arcane Strike as early as possible, and consider taking Combat Reflexes and/or Improved Initiative if you have an extra Fighter bonus feat to spend.

For your spells you want to forget about everything on that list you already have except for the 2nd and 3rd level spells. Most of the spells I suggest will be in the PHB or Spell Compendium, or I'll try to say which book to find it in. You should take useful utility spells like Benign Transposition, Ebon Eyes, Alter Self, Fly, Mass Snake's Swiftness (be sure to include yourself), Melf's Unicorn Arrow (PH2), Dimension Door, and just about any nonoffensive spell from the Batman Wizard list. You also need a few solid offensive disabling spells to open a large fight with, to use on a particularly powerful foe, or to hit foes who are too far or too mobile to melee. Such spells would include Ray of Stupidity, Glitterdust, Ray of Dizziness, Freezing Fog, and maybe a select few disable/debuff spells from the Batman list. Buffing spells will be what makes you a strong combatant, these include Nerveskitter, Shield, Alter Self, Wraithstrike, Heroics, Whirling Blade, Haste, Displacement, Polymorph, Greater Mirror Image (PH2), Draconic Polymorph (Draconomicon), (Lesser) Ironguard, Mind Blank, Superior Invisibility, etc. With Abjurant Champion you want to have some good low-level abjurations to cast with the free quicken, good choices include Shield, Protection from Evil, Protection from Arrows, Magic Circle against Evil, and Protection from Energy. Finally, you want to get a Spell Storing weapon and have spells to use with that and Channel Spell. Good choices for Spell Storing include Vampiric Touch, Shivering Touch (Frostburn), and Sound Lance, and keep in mind that Maximized versions of spells don't count as a higher level spell even if it takes a higher level spell slot. For Channel Spell you can use any of the single-target disables I suggested such as Ray of Dizziness and Ray of Light, and another great choice for this is Cloudkill since it will become a targeted effect that they can't escape from.

You don't want to spend more than one round buffing in any fight, so pick a few and make them count. A huge boost to this for the higher levels is Boots of Temporal Acceleration (XPH, MIC), and Persistent Spell is also good for lower level buffs like Wraithstrike and Displacement. Also remember that you can use a Lesser Metamagic Rod of Extend to make Wraithstrike last two rounds per casting instead of just one. Quicken Spell is also good for buffing and throwing around low-level debuffs/disables. Once Abjurant Champion lets you Quicken spells for free you'll want to have Shield active in every encounter. Use another buff or a strong disable with it and move up, and on the second round cast Extended Wraithstrike, activate Arcane Strike, and Power Attack two-handed with a full attack a Whirling Blade spell. Good Alter Self forms include a Troglodyte (+6 natural armor) or anything that can fly, burrow, or swim depending on the situation. Good (Draconic) Polymorph forms include Cave Troll and War Troll, both from MM3. Another good trick is to set up a Contingency to cast a (Rod of) Extended Bull's Strength on you whenever an Extended Bull's Strength spell on you expires. Before an encounter buff with a (Rod of) Extended Bull's Strength, as soon as it runs out your contingency will trigger and you'll get the buff for four times as long.

For gear you want to have a few Lesser Rods of Extend and later on a Lesser Rod of Maximize and a Lesser Rod of Quicken. Your armor can easily avoid arcane spell failure if you use Mithral, get the Twilight property (PH2 sidebar at the Duskblade entry), and use a Thistledown Suit from Races of the Wild. At Spellsword 1 you can wear Mithral Breastplate with a Thistledown Suit and have 0% ASF, and at Spellsword 5 you can use Mithral Full Plate with a Thistledown Suit for 0% ASF. Get a Spell Storing weapon and use a Lesser Rod of Maximize when you put spells into it. Boots of Temporal Acceleration are good to use on the first round to buff up and still get to attack, pay x2 the cost for a set usable 2/day, 3x the cost usable 3/day, etc. Armbands of Might is another good item to have for Power Attacking and also on opposed strength-based checks such as grapple, trip, and disarm. Higher level characters should always get a Ring of Freedom of Movement and a Gemstone of Heavy Fortification (Draconomicon).

Iku Rex
2009-04-28, 03:37 AM
Somantic Weaponry isn't really an issue with a 2handed weapon, since you can freely take 1 hand off the weapon and put it back on on either side of casting.According to the official FAQ: "The rules don’t state what type of action is required to switch hands on a weapon, but it seems reasonable to assume that it’s the equivalent of drawing a weapon (a move action that doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity)."

His DM might say otherwise of course.

One alternative to Somantic Weaponry might be Quick Draw, based on the "equivalent of drawing a weapon" ruling.

If the DM rules that natural weapons count as weapons for the purpose of the Somantic Weaponry feat it becomes a lot more useful to a polymorpher.

***
Other thoughts:

As others have pointed out, spellsword is not a very good class. Even Still Spell is a better way to avoid ASF. If you want a more martial feel for your character, get four fighter levels and enter abjurant champion earlier.


Feats: Power Attack is a must-have. Ignore the bad advice in Complete Mage. Mages have several ways to increase their chance to hit, but to fully benefit from that they need Power Attack.

I like Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Chain (OrAdv or SavSpec) and Combat Reflexes for a melee mage with feats to spare. If you're enlarged or polymorphed (with sizing weapon) you'll have 20' reach. Use greater mighty wallop (RacDrag) to increase the damage.

Spells: Bluebeard's list is a good starting point.

Some he left out:

Fist of Stone (lv1, SpC): Good low-level Str buff.
True Strike (lv1): Not nearly as powerful as it first seems, but it lets you pull some neat tricks in special situations. (Cast true strike and grab the BBEGs weapon...)

Fearsome Grapple (lv2, Spc): With polymorph (and maybe heroics) this lets you grapple and pin most enemies.
Heroics (lv2, SpC): Gets you fighter feats. Works especially well if you have four levels of fighter. Also, you can pick Martial Study (and maybe Martial Stance) from Tome of Battle.
Fuse Arms (lv2, SpC): Along with girallon's blessing this provides a +4 Str buff for 10 min/level. Not great, but potentially useful.

Dragonskin (lv3, SpC): Basic AC buff and you get energy resistance as a bonus. (Better than spiderskin.)
Evard's Menacing Tentacles (lv3, PHBII): Short duration, but can be nasty if you've used spells to get a high Str.
Heroism (lv3): Solid 10 min/level buff.

Kobold-Bard
2009-04-28, 03:45 AM
Just a minor thing, but IIRC you need a BAB of +2 to take Improved Toughness, meaning it can't be level 1 feat. I'm away from my books though, so feel free to correct me.

Bluebeard
2009-04-28, 03:48 AM
Just a minor thing, but IIRC you need a BAB of +2 to take Improved Toughness, meaning it can't be level 1 feat. I'm away from my books though, so feel free to correct me.I'm pretty sure that's a Base Fortitude save requirement.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-04-28, 09:48 AM
According to the official FAQ: "The rules don’t state what type of action is required to switch hands on a weapon, but it seems reasonable to assume that it’s the equivalent of drawing a weapon (a move action that doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity)."Read my sig. Especially since I'm pretty sure the FAQ was the ones who said it's a free action to remove your hand from the weapon in the first place. :smallmad:

Also, AZ, spoiler that thing. :smalleek:

Kylarra
2009-04-28, 09:51 AM
I'm pretty sure that's a Base Fortitude save requirement.It is, I just checked. :smallcool:

Keld Denar
2009-04-28, 10:10 AM
According to the official FAQ: "The rules don’t state what type of action is required to switch hands on a weapon, but it seems reasonable to assume that it’s the equivalent of drawing a weapon (a move action that doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity)."


IIRC, the section of the FAQ that you quoted doesn't even apply. Its in the section about a cleric swapping his mace from his main hand to his shield hand so he can cast a spell with his main hand. This is like the two weapon example I mentioned, except that he is storing his weapon in his offhand rather than dropping it. With a 2handed weapon, one hand is always on the weapon. One hand can hold a weapon, but you are only wielding the weapon when both hands are on it. Taking 1 hand off and placing it back on the weapon is a simple action, more simple than swapping a weapon from 1 hand to the other.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-04-28, 01:17 PM
To provide a counterpoint, have you considered other ways to build a 'gish'?

For example, Fighter2/Wiz3/Spellsword1/Abjurant Champion5...

Spellsword really isn't all that good after the 1st level dip. Abjurant Champion, however, rocks bigtime, including auto-quickened Shield spell for +9 shield bonus to AC and quickened Dispel Magic. If you can find an Abjuration spell which grants an armor bonus to AC, that would work as well, as Mage Armor is Conjuration. However, you can also just wear Mithral Chain, and with your -10% ASF from the one-level dip in SS, you won't have ASF anyways.

Iku Rex
2009-04-28, 02:12 PM
Read my sig. Ah yes. "FAQ is not RAW!". I'm curious, are you saying that the FAQ does not contains rules or that the FAQ is not written?

The FAQ is published by Wizards of the Coast. They have designated it as "official". You don't have to use its rules in your game, any more than you have to use rules from any other official source. But many people treat it as an authoritative source of rule calls. Especially when there are no clear answers in core or published supplements.

And if you read past the point where you started seeing red at the sight of the letters "FAQ", you will notice that I even added "his DM might say otherwise of course", in an attempt to pacify the rabid FAQ haters. No luck there. :smallsigh:


Especially since I'm pretty sure the FAQ was the ones who said it's a free action to remove your hand from the weapon in the first place. :smallmad:We're not talking about "removing your hand from the weapon".

But you're probably thinking of Rules of the Game.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20041102a
("Although the rules don't mention it, letting go of a two-handed weapon with one hand or putting a free hand back on the weapon is a free action for you.")

It's an earlier ruling, it's written by Skip Williams rather than Andy Collins (Collins was the main guy responsible for the 3.5 PHB), and Rules of the Game has no "official" status beyond appearing on WotC's website. Might help convince a DM though I suppose.


Also, AZ, spoiler that thing. :smalleek:Why would he do that? Spoilers are overused on this board.

Iku Rex
2009-04-28, 02:28 PM
IIRC, the section of the FAQ that you quoted doesn't even apply. Its in the section about a cleric swapping his mace from his main hand to his shield hand so he can cast a spell with his main hand. This is like the two weapon example I mentioned, except that he is storing his weapon in his offhand rather than dropping it. With a 2handed weapon, one hand is always on the weapon. One hand can hold a weapon, but you are only wielding the weapon when both hands are on it. Taking 1 hand off and placing it back on the weapon is a simple action, more simple than swapping a weapon from 1 hand to the other.

A spellcaster can move a weapon from one hand to the other by:
1. Grabbing the weapon with both hands (during the transfer)
2. Letting go of the weapon with one hand

This is a move action according to the FAQ.

A spellcaster can cast a spell while holding/wielding a two-handed weapon by:
1. Letting go of the weapon with one hand
2. Grabbing the weapon with both hands (after casting the spell)

The two must require the same action(s). If the latter is a free action/free actions a cleric could use his morningstar two-handed (free action IYO), then let go with one hand (free action IYO) and end up with the weapon in a different hand.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-04-28, 02:34 PM
A spellcaster can move a weapon from one hand to the other by:
1. Grabbing the weapon with both hands (during the transfer)
2. Letting go of the weapon with one hand

This is a move action according to the FAQ.

A spellcaster can cast a spell while holding/wielding a two-handed weapon by:
1. Letting go of the weapon with one hand
2. Grabbing the weapon with both hands (after casting the spell)

The two must require the same action(s). If the latter is a free action/free actions a cleric could use his morningstar two-handed (free action IYO), then let go with one hand (free action IYO) and end up with the weapon in a different hand.

Wrong.

When we look at the Quick Draw feat, we see that Normally, without the feat, you can draw a weapon as a free action as part of movement if your BAB is +1 or higher.

Furthermore, when we look at Actions in Combat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsincombat.htm#dropanItem), we see that dropping an item is a FREE action as well.

So you 'drop' the weapon from one hand, as a free action, to cast with it. Then, as part of movement, you put it back, again as a free action.

Myrmex
2009-04-28, 02:39 PM
Depending on the point buy, paladin 2/gish stuff could make for an interesting twist. You lose two feats, but gain charisma to your saves. If you go necropolitan (become undead) and go paladin of tyranny (LE paladin variant), you can dump con and pump charisma.

This also has the added benefit of being able to spellstitch yourself. The downside is being immune to polymorph effects, and morale bonuses.

I would also go focused transmuter variant, which gets you two bonus spells from transmutation/day. Ban evocation, enchantment, and illusion or necromancy. Don't ban abjuration, since abjurant champion is so good.

Iku Rex
2009-04-28, 02:43 PM
Wrong.

When we look at the Quick Draw feat, we see that Normally, without the feat, you can draw a weapon as a free action as part of movement if your BAB is +1 or higher.

Furthermore, when we look at Actions in Combat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsincombat.htm#dropanItem), we see that dropping an item is a FREE action as well.

So you 'drop' the weapon from one hand, as a free action, to cast with it. Then, as part of movement, you put it back, again as a free action.What? We are talking about a "move action", not actual movement.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-04-28, 02:47 PM
What? We are talking about a "move action", not actual movement.

Your supposition that placing or removing a hand from a weapon is a move action is false. You let go as a free action, then cast spell, then as part of your move action, you also get to put your hand back on the weapon after you get a +1 BAB (so 2nd level).

Iku Rex
2009-04-28, 03:01 PM
Your supposition that placing or removing a hand from a weapon is a move action is false. You let go as a free action, then cast spell, then as part of your move action, you also get to put your hand back on the weapon after you get a +1 BAB (so 2nd level).I have not said that "placing or removing a hand from a weapon is a move action". Nor has the FAQ.

The question is if putting the weapon back in two hands is a free action or an "equivalent of drawing a weapon" move action.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-04-28, 03:20 PM
I have not said that "placing or removing a hand from a weapon is a move action". Nor has the FAQ.

The question is if putting the weapon back in two hands is a free action or an "equivalent of drawing a weapon" move action.

But drawing a weapon is a free action if you have a BAB of +1 or greater, according to the Normal listing in the Quick Draw feat

streakster
2009-04-28, 03:41 PM
Oh, one more real quick. Celestial Brilliance, from the BoED. While it might not fit the whole fiend theme, it's a several day buff that provides light and harms evil outsiders and the undead, if you are near them. As you plan to hit them with a sword, it could work well.

Oh, and launch item (SpC?). Because you didn't have anything to do with those cantrips anyways, and there is so much alchemical goodness to rain down at them. Launch bolt is less stunning, but thematically appropiate.

EDIT: Aaaah! I forgot to mention Martial Study and Martial Stance! Good feats, and very versatile. Stance in particular is an all-day buff. Also, they're fighter bonus feats, and thus targets for heroics.

Iku Rex
2009-04-28, 03:51 PM
But drawing a weapon is a free action if you have a BAB of +1 or greater, according to the Normal listing in the Quick Draw featNot true. "[Y]ou may draw a weapon as a move action, or (if your base attack bonus is +1 or higher) as a free action as part of movement."

Drawing a weapon is a move action. There's a special exception for drawing a weapon as part of movement. There is no such movement involved in this discussion.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-04-28, 04:29 PM
Oh my goodness this thing got moving since I was on last night! :smalleek:

I'm not really interested in the spellsword for the spell channelling. I'm interested in it for the Ignore Arcane Spell Failure feature. At high levels, I can wear adamantine full plate with a twilight enchantment and still cast spells with no problem. Eldritch Knight does have full caster progression, but casting is still hampered by armor, and free damage reduction that can't be beaten (unlike with Stoneskin) looks too good to pass up. I'll admit I'm now more than a little confused.

ChaosDefender24
2009-04-28, 04:34 PM
Honestly, I don't see the point in armor for spellcasters of good alignment when there's the greater luminous armor spell

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-04-28, 05:21 PM
I don't neccesarily want to play a good character though. I want to try something different from the paladins I normally play.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-04-28, 05:28 PM
This. Alternatively, Warblade 1/Wizard 6/Jade Phoenix Mage 8/Abjurant Champion 5. BAB of +17, 9th level spells (barely though), and a number of useful tricks. Good aligned is a requirement, so the Fiendish touch thing is a bit of a no-go (but you can easily reflavor the JPM to be Evil, it's even in the Adaptation section).


Spellsword is not worth the full 10 levels. It is worth 3, at most (the average is actually 1). You end up losing 6 CLs from the PrC (this includes the level of Fighter), which puts you at 7th level spells and a caster level of 14 (nowhere near enough to penetrate SR of high level opponents).

I don't know if my DM'd allow Tome of Battle.

Why is caster level more important then the fact that I can wear adamantine frickin' fullplate and not break a sweat? Damage reduction is always a good thing, isn't it?

Chronos
2009-04-28, 06:04 PM
Quoth Biffoniacus_Furiou:
You could go Fighter 1/ Wizard 6/ Spellsword 5/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Ruathar 3 and accomplish this without missing out on Channel Spell. Ruathar is in Races of the Wild, check WotC's indexes page if you need to know what book something is from. I'd make the levels go Fighter 1/ Wizard 6/ Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Spellsword 4/ Ruathar 3.Why put Ruathar off until the end? You can meet the prereqs at level 6, before you're eligible for any of the other PrCs, and end up trading that wizard level for something better.

And damage reduction is nice, of course, but you're giving up way too much for it. Adamantine full plate gives you what, DR 3/--? By the time you can afford adamantine armor, you've got much better things to worry about than a measly little three points of damage per physical attack: Any physical attack worth caring about is going to be doing 50 points of damage or more anyway, and 47 damage rather than 50 is no big deal. Meanwhile, you're still as vulnerable as ever to any sort of spell at all. More casting levels, though, can protect you against both physical attacks and spells, and to a much greater degree than damage reduction can.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-04-28, 06:21 PM
I suppose. So say I use one of these suggested builds. What would I get out of them besides better casting level. I don't own Races of the Wild, so I'd need to check that out from my local library (which I know has it as I've checked it out from them before).

How would I go about setting one of these builds up?

Bluebeard
2009-04-28, 06:38 PM
I suppose. So say I use one of these suggested builds. What would I get out of them besides better casting level. I don't own Races of the Wild, so I'd need to check that out from my local library (which I know has it as I've checked it out from them before).

How would I go about setting one of these builds up?

They're all just filler levels, but so is Spellsword past level 4 (past level 1 if all you want is full plate).
It's just that they're much better filler levels than Spellsword.


As far as setting a higher CL build up, there have been heaps of examples in this thread already.
I like Fighter 2/Wizard 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight 8.
Maybe a spell level behind other builds, but low levels are so rough for this sort of character that it's worth it.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-04-28, 06:50 PM
...Past level 1 if all I want is fullplate? Correct me if I'm wrong, but fullplate's ASF is 35%, 25% if you have mithral. Spellswords only have a 10% reduced ASF at level 1. How would I reduce the remaining 25% or 15%. I prefer not to rely on my equipment if I can help it, since I've seen too many builds that only work if you have a particular item, and the chances of getting or making such an item are next to none.

My level 11 paladin doesn't even have enchanted armor of any kind. Just mithral full plate he technically doesn't need because he can wear heavy armor out of the box and doesn't cast arcane spells. And all he has as a weapon is a +1 cold iron longsword!

Also, I have a friend who said that his favorite gish build doesn't even bother with CL, and that the best gishes have a CL of 15 at level 20 tops.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-04-28, 08:03 PM
Full Plate (1500 gp): 35% ASF
Mithral (9000 gp): -10%
Thistledown Suit (RotW, 250 gp nonmagical): -5% ASF, ACP increased by 1
+1 Twilight (4000 gp): -10%
Spellsword 1: -10%
Total ASF: 0%
Total Cost: 14,750 gp
Armor Stats: Armor +9, Max Dex +3, Armor Check Penalty -5, weight 25

Cheaper Alternative until you can afford that:
Breastplate (200 gp): 25% ASF
Mithral (4000 gp): -10%
Thistledown Suit (RotW, 250 gp): -5% ASF, ACP increased by 1
Spellsword 1: -10%
Total ASF: 0%
Total Cost: 4450 gp
Armor Stats: Armor +5, Max Dex +5, Armor Check Penalty -3, weight 15

Alter Self into a Troglodyte and get +6 natural armor on top of whatever armor you're wearing. Just cast Mage Armor for a +4 AC bonus, or Greater Mage Armor for a +6 bonus, and you'll have +12 AC from spells and not even need to wear armor. With 5 levels in Abjurant Champion you can cast Shield quickened for free, and it gives a +9 AC bonus. That's +21 AC from spells, which should be plenty. Go Fighter 2/ Wizard 4/ Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Eldritch Knight 8 with Practiced Spellcaster and you'll be fine.

OR...
Polymorph: Cave Troll: Dex 13, natural armor +11, -1 size
or Polymorph: War Troll: Dex Dex 16, natural armor +14, -1 size
Both of those will also work with (Greater) Mage Armor and your +9 Shield.
With Greater Mirror Image from PHB2 and all that AC nothing should ever be able to hit you, and even if it does you'll have a Spell Storing weapon with a Maximized Vampiric Touch in it.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-04-28, 08:07 PM
What exactly is a thistledown suit?

Keld Denar
2009-04-28, 08:10 PM
Spells > not Spells in....10/10 situations. Why do you need DR when you can cast Greater Ironguard? Or similar. Seriously, as a gish caster/fighter hybred, your armor is mostly there as a place to stack extra enhancement bonuses onto, useful things like Aporter, Death Ward, Energy Immunity, and maybe Fortification. You do it because you can, not because you need it.

Also, Mithril Fullplate is 25%. Spellsword1 drops that to 15%. Twilight drops that to 5%. And Races of the Wild has the wonderful Thisledown Padding, which lowers the ASF by 5%, but increases your ACP by -1 for a minor static cost. Thus, your Mithril Fullplate is 0% spell failure. But really, by mid-late game, you could instead go with Mithril Breast Plate, which is 15%, which Spellsword1 reduces to 5% and Thistledown Padding again reduces to 0%, negating the need for Twilight at the cost of 3 AC, or even go with Mithril Chain Shirt, which is 10%, which Spellsword1 reduces to 0%, at the cost of 4 AC from Mithril Fullplate. Its not a huge loss, trust me.

Really, you should probably go for as high of CL as you can. Spellcasting is SOOOOO versitile that its worth every level you can get of it.

Another idea, if you want to be gishy but don't mind slightly more limited casting is to use Suel Arcanamach. Depending on your starting level, this can be a very fun option. Something like Hexblade3/Warblade3/SA1/AbjChamp2/Spellsword1/AbjChamp+3/SA+3/Spellsword+4 or Sacred Exorcist+4 would be amazing. Even better, if you could slide in some evil paladin instead of Warblade, doubling up on your +cha. Like, Hexblade4/Pal2/SAX would be pretty freakin cool.

Suel Arcanamach doesn't get access to Conjouration, but he does get Transmuation and Illusion, 2 of the best gish schools of magic, along with Abjuration and Divination. Being Cha focused, you can abuse things like Sudden Stunning weapons, Divine Might, and the fact that you get +cha twice against spells. That makes a pretty strong mage hunter.

Any more questions?

EDIT:
Thistledown padding is a special elvencrafted padding that goes underneath your armor. It allows for increased ability to weave arcane magic, but the extra weight makes other activities in armor slightly more difficult. Thus the -5% ASF and the +1 ACP.

Sinfire Titan
2009-04-28, 08:31 PM
I don't know if my DM'd allow Tome of Battle.

Why is caster level more important then the fact that I can wear adamantine frickin' fullplate and not break a sweat? Damage reduction is always a good thing, isn't it?

Keld Denar is right. Your spellcasting abilities are far more important than Damage Reduction 3/- (if you want DR that badly, there are a number of spells that can give it to you, but DR 3/- is pathetic for anyone to waste 2 CLs for).

Your racial choice can even offer you DR. Warforged with Adamantine Body and Improved Damage Reduction gets DR 3/Admantine as early as 1st level (flaws/Fighter Substitution levels).


Furthermore, Full Plate is crap. Mithral Breastplate+a good Dex score can easily be more useful. Plate armor becomes obsolete when casters have access to spells like Luminous Armor (BoED).

streakster
2009-04-28, 08:48 PM
Don't forget Githcraft or feycraft, for even less ASF. I think githcraft even gives a concentration bonus as gravy.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-04-28, 08:53 PM
I'll try to set up that build that was mentioned earlier, using the fighter-wizard feat swap mentioned from Unearthed Arcana

1. Fighter 1 Skill Focus (Concentration), Improved Toughness*
2. Fighter 2 Power Attack*
3. Wizard 1 Combat Casting, Quick Draw*
4. Wizard 2 Weapon Focus (greatsword)*
5. Wizard 3
6. Wizard 4 Arcane Strike, Combat Reflexes*
7. Spellsword 1
8. Abjurant Champion 1
9. Abjurant Champion 2 Practiced Spellcaster
10. Abjurant Champion 3
11. Abjurant Champion 4
12. Abjurant Champion 5 Craft Magic Arms and Armor
13. Eldritch Knight 1 Blind-Fight*
14. Eldritch Knight 2
15. Eldritch Knight 3 Minor Shapeshift
16. Eldritch Knight 4
17. Eldritch Knight 5
18. Eldritch Knight 6 Improved Sunder
19. Eldritch Knight 7
20. Eldritch Knight 8

How does this work? Does it need fixing? Is there something I left out?

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-04-28, 08:58 PM
Keld Denar is right. Your spellcasting abilities are far more important than Damage Reduction 3/- (if you want DR that badly, there are a number of spells that can give it to you, but DR 3/- is pathetic for anyone to waste 2 CLs for).

Your racial choice can even offer you DR. Warforged with Adamantine Body and Improved Damage Reduction gets DR 3/Admantine as early as 1st level (flaws/Fighter Substitution levels).


Furthermore, Full Plate is crap. Mithral Breastplate+a good Dex score can easily be more useful. Plate armor becomes obsolete when casters have access to spells like Luminous Armor (BoED).

Except my DEX score is practically guaranteed to NOT be good. My character's highest ability score can only be 15, and his lowest ability score can only be 10. Intelligence needs to be my highest, since that's what my spellcasting depends on, so that gets the 15. Strength comes next at 14 because I need to be able to hit well with that greatsword. Next is Constitution, since I'll need every hit point I can get, even if it's the +1 a score of 13 gets me. Dexterity comes in fourth at a solid 12, which is only a +1 bonus, followed by Wisdom and Charisma at 11 and 10 respectively.

ZeroNumerous
2009-04-28, 09:07 PM
Except my DEX score is practically guaranteed to NOT be good. My character's highest ability score can only be 15, and his lowest ability score can only be 10. Intelligence needs to be my highest, since that's what my spellcasting depends on, so that gets the 15. Strength comes next at 14 because I need to be able to hit well with that greatsword. Next is Constitution, since I'll need every hit point I can get, even if it's the +1 a score of 13 gets me. Dexterity comes in fourth at a solid 12, which is only a +1 bonus, followed by Wisdom and Charisma at 11 and 10 respectively.

Or use the following:
13
14
12
15
11
10

Level up points go into INT/INT/STR/INT. Dump some gold on a Belt of Magnificence. Bam, +6 to all stats. Then just buy books of INT/STR and throw down Magical Aura on your belt so it appears non-magical. You just got a STR of 20 without trying and that's more than enough to be within hitting range of any monster with spells.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-04-28, 09:55 PM
Or use the following:
13
14
12
15
11
10

Level up points go into INT/INT/STR/INT. Dump some gold on a Belt of Magnificence. Bam, +6 to all stats. Then just buy books of INT/STR and throw down Magical Aura on your belt so it appears non-magical. You just got a STR of 20 without trying and that's more than enough to be within hitting range of any monster with spells.

What's a Belt of Magnificence? Aren't those books of INT or STR minor artifacts or something?

You're assuming that I have a lot of gold to throw around. The DM I play with (though I hate to say it) is really stingy with gold. My current character, a paladin, is at level 11 at the moment, and I could barely afford my current gear of a +1 cold iron longsword, a suit of mithral fullplate and a +1 heavy shield. Recently he tossed me a bone and I got +2 Gauntlets of Ogre Power in loot, but that's very rare. Normally the loot we pick up from battles are non-masterwork armor and weapons from downed mooks or bosses that we sell when we get back to civilization so we can get gold to pay our druid leader's wizard cohort to make what we want for us.

My paladin is still trying to figure out a way to get a few thousand gold to pay for the fortress he was loaned by the church of St. Cuthbert while the prisoners they kept there are conscripted and sent off to war. If I want to keep the fortress (which I do, since I'm rebuilding the church of Heironeous all by my lonesome and we need a place to call home), I need to pay them for the fortress.

The DM has also given me a reliquary that supposedly contains items of great power, but it'll only open for someone strong in the faith, indicated by the level of their aura. Even though my DM allowed me to cheat a bit (normally, my aura would be about level 7, since I'm only a level 5 paladin with two levels of divine crusader, with my two levels of fighter and of ordained champion not counting towards that) and have my aura equal my character level instead, I still can't open it. The previous "pope" of the Heironean church who sent it to me was a level 11 paladin too, and he couldn't open it.

In short, in the campaign in which I'm likely to play this character, I'll be constantly strapped for cash.

Thurbane
2009-04-28, 10:24 PM
Fourth, don't the Fiendish Heritage feats require spontaneous casting, like a sorcerer? And what are you planning on gaining from them, anyway?
You may be thinking of the Infernal Sorcerer Heritage feats from PHBII. The feats in Complete Mage are open to any class within the alignment restrictions. I've made the exact same mistake myself previously.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-04-28, 10:55 PM
A Belt of Magnificense is in the Miniatures Handbook, it grants a +2, +4, or +6 Enhancement bonus to all of your stats, priced at 25,000 gp, 100,000 gp, and 200,000 gp respectively. The +2 and +4 versions are more expensive than six individual items of the same bonus, but the +6 version is quite a bargain.

Physical ability scores don't much matter when you have Polymorph. Turn into a Cave Troll and you get Str 29, Dex 13, Con 27, or into a War Troll and you get Str 31, Dex 16, Con 29. If you use Draconic Polymorph from the Draconomicon instead, you get an additional +8 Str and +2 Con, which are unnamed bonuses that stack with any other bonuses. Draconic Polymorph: War Troll with Bull's Strength gives you Str 43, that's a +16 ability modifier, plus Arcane Strike can give you an additional bonus to hit, plus Greater Magic Weapon, and with Wraithstrike you'll ignore all of their armor, shield, and natural armor bonuses, guaranteeing that you'll hit even if you power attack for your full BAB.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-04-28, 10:58 PM
You mean the Miniature's Handbook has things for regular players? I thought it was only for people playing the Miniature-based spinoff.

Thurbane
2009-04-28, 11:03 PM
You mean the Miniature's Handbook has things for regular players? I thought it was only for people playing the Miniature-based spinoff.
Yeah, it's got some new base classes, PrCs, feats and items. I find it quite handy. :smallbiggrin:

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-04-28, 11:52 PM
I'd change your feats. For one, you don't have a single Metamagic Feat.

So, maybe something like this:

1) Power Attack, Quick Draw
2) Improved Bull Rush
3) Combat Casting, Scribe Scroll
6) Arcane Strike
9) Shock Trooper
12) Quicken Spell
13) Leap Attack
15) Minor Shapeshift
18) Metamagic feat of choice

This has the following advantages over your proposed feat selection:

1) Shock Trooper (from Complete Warrior) lets you take penalties to AC rather than to attack rolls for using Power Attack in a charge. This means you can reliably hit with a charge, which is good for lots of damage. Leap Attack further increases the multiplier from your BAB. So, your melee damage output will be VASTLY superior to your proposed feat selection

2) Quicken Spell. Trust me, it's really that important. Being able to Quicken True Strike for a +20 on an attack that absolutely, positively NEEDS to hit is just priceless. That's only one of a thousand uses for it.

3) How are you getting feat at 4th level (Wizard 2)?

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-04-29, 12:17 AM
As I said, I took the Unearthed Arcana class-feature swap. It removes Scribe Scroll and the wizard bonus feat progression, and replaces them with the bonus feat progression of the fighter, allowing me to take fighter bonus feats, but not bonus wizard feats like metamagic or craft item feats at those levels.

As for metamagic feats, you're right, that does need fixing. I forgot that I wanted to put Extend Spell in there as well.

Is there some way I can fit Craft Magic Arms and Armor in that setup as well? Complete Mage reccomended that feat for Warrior type casters, and I'd like to be able to make custom weapons and armor.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-04-29, 12:28 AM
Shock Trooper is completely unnecessary when you have (Rod of Extended) Wraithstrike, Polymorph, Arcane Strike, Greater Magic Weapon, etc. Leap Attack can't be taken as a Fighter bonus feat at Eldritch Knight 1, and I wouldn't even include it in the build because he wants to be full attacking more than charging. I'd go with the following instead, using the UA variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wizard) to get a Fighter bonus feat instead of Scribe Scroll:

1) Power Attack, Combat Casting
2) Improved Initiative
3) Practiced Spellcaster, Quick Draw
6) Arcane Strike
9) Extend Spell
12) Combat Reflexes
13) Improved Toughness
15) Minor Shapeshift
18) Persistent Spell

Feats that only work when you charge aren't good in this type of build, because you want to be full attacking with Arcane Strike rather than making one big charge attack. Most metamagic feats should be substituted for Metamagic Rods. Persistent Spell is good later on to make buffs like Wraithstrike and Displacement last all day with one casting. Keep in mind that the polymorph subschool (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060501a&page=5) does not change any existing spells, such as Polymorph, Alter Self, Draconic Polymorph, and Shapechange, it only applies to spells that have been printed with that subschool following their school of magic.

If you're not playing a human character, you can use Alter Self to turn into a human and get a bonus feat and max ranks in a class skill for the duration. You can get a Knowledge skill and Skill Focus in it if you need obscure information. You can get a Craft skill with Skill Focus and cast Fabricate to make anything you want. You could even cast it Persistent to get an item creation feat to make magic items.

Chronos
2009-04-29, 01:12 AM
As I said, I took the Unearthed Arcana class-feature swap. It removes Scribe Scroll and the wizard bonus feat progression, and replaces them with the bonus feat progression of the fighter, allowing me to take fighter bonus feats, but not bonus wizard feats like metamagic or craft item feats at those levels.The Unearthed Arcana fighter feat variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wizard) just gives you the fighter's list of feats, not the progression. You still get bonus feats at the same time as any other wizard (1st, 5th, 10th, etc.); you just get different bonus feats.

Bluebeard
2009-04-29, 01:19 AM
Is there some way I can fit Craft Magic Arms and Armor in that setup as well? Complete Mage reccomended that feat for Warrior type casters, and I'd like to be able to make custom weapons and armor.
Complete Mage recommends a lot of things.

.

streakster
2009-04-29, 01:35 AM
Are you dead set on fitting in the Craft feat? Cause it seems to me you'd have to give up a better feat for it, and you don't get that much else to boost it. Consider summoning a midguard dwarf with planar binding instead - they can make magic items for you, and you won't need the feat. Alternatively, Rituals from the DMG2 could work too.

herrhauptmann
2009-04-29, 02:32 AM
As a way to boost your spellcasting, try "Spellcasting Prodigy" at level 1.
There are 2 versions of this feat, the one in the Forgotten Realms campaign guide rocks. (Taken only at first level. Effective +2 to casting stat for purposes of DC and spell/day. Also affects how many first level spells you gain as a first level wizard. Can be taken multiple times, effects do not stack. Multiple selections apply to different stats wis/int/cha)

The other, in the Players Guide to Faerun (I think) was nerfed and balanced.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-04-29, 01:12 PM
Are you dead set on fitting in the Craft feat? Cause it seems to me you'd have to give up a better feat for it, and you don't get that much else to boost it. Consider summoning a midguard dwarf with planar binding instead - they can make magic items for you, and you won't need the feat. Alternatively, Rituals from the DMG2 could work too.

Well, not exactly dead-set. Complete Mage reccomended it, and in our current game, I'm paying through the nose for equipment because frankly our DM is too stingy with magic items and gold. There's only been a few instances where we've found actual magic items in something. One of those was when in a dragon's hoard, the party found a +1 vorpal longsword and a +1 dragonbane longsword. I wasn't there to make a claim to any of it though, because I was home for Easter. The only ones playing were our kobold sorcerer and his elf barbarian cohort, our halfling rogue/wizard, and our bard's unicorn, Ptsd.

My paladin could certainly have made use of either of those, but the kobold's player kept them for his cohort because she's a two-weapon fighting barbarian. She scored more kills in one fight with that vorpal longsword than I have in my entire career. All I'm stuck with is my measly +1 cold iron longsword, and I'm level 11 by now! Shouldn't I have more powerful weapons and armor at this point?!

What I'm trying to say is, I'd like to make sure that I'm either not dependent on magic items, or that I have the ability to make them, since I strongly doubt the DM will just drop them into my lap.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-04-29, 01:14 PM
As a way to boost your spellcasting, try "Spellcasting Prodigy" at level 1.
There are 2 versions of this feat, the one in the Forgotten Realms campaign guide rocks. (Taken only at first level. Effective +2 to casting stat for purposes of DC and spell/day. Also affects how many first level spells you gain as a first level wizard. Can be taken multiple times, effects do not stack. Multiple selections apply to different stats wis/int/cha)

The other, in the Players Guide to Faerun (I think) was nerfed and balanced.

Isn't that in Complete Arcane as well?

streakster
2009-04-29, 01:25 PM
Wow, that's rough.

In that case, Leadership with an Artificer cohort. You'll never want for magic bling again, and you can get some combat use out of it as well - have him blast away with wands or potshot with a bow.

Yeah, Leadership is on the OP side (understatement) but if that's the best equip you've got then its justified, I feel. You've got to solve that somehow.

EDIT: Wait, someone else has a cohort, yes? If your DM is fine with Leadership then this is definitely my reccommendation.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-04-29, 03:14 PM
Wow, that's rough.

In that case, Leadership with an Artificer cohort. You'll never want for magic bling again, and you can get some combat use out of it as well - have him blast away with wands or potshot with a bow.

Yeah, Leadership is on the OP side (understatement) but if that's the best equip you've got then its justified, I feel. You've got to solve that somehow.

EDIT: Wait, someone else has a cohort, yes? If your DM is fine with Leadership then this is definitely my reccommendation.

My DM would have no problem with me taking Leadership. Three players in our current game have it. Our kobold werewolf sorcerer has a barbarian cohort, our bard has a cleric cohort, and our druid has a wizard cohort (who has been our supplier for magic armor, weapons, etc. She works her tail off to make this stuff for us.)

I don't know what he'd say about the artificer though. Neither of us have the Eberron guide, and I know that when the druid's player showed him a homebrew artificer prestige class as a possibility for his cohort, since her main purpose has been making magic items, he was leery of it. Mainly because our campaign has different rules for golems. They're much easier to make, and thus artificers might be overpowered.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-04-29, 05:06 PM
Shock Trooper is completely unnecessary when you have (Rod of Extended) Wraithstrike, Polymorph, Arcane Strike, Greater Magic Weapon, etc. Leap Attack can't be taken as a Fighter bonus feat at Eldritch Knight 1, and I wouldn't even include it in the build because he wants to be full attacking more than charging. I'd go with the following instead, using the UA variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wizard) to get a Fighter bonus feat instead of Scribe Scroll:

1) Power Attack, Combat Casting
2) Improved Initiative
3) Practiced Spellcaster, Quick Draw
6) Arcane Strike
9) Extend Spell
12) Combat Reflexes
13) Improved Toughness
15) Minor Shapeshift
18) Persistent Spell

Feats that only work when you charge aren't good in this type of build, because you want to be full attacking with Arcane Strike rather than making one big charge attack. Most metamagic feats should be substituted for Metamagic Rods. Persistent Spell is good later on to make buffs like Wraithstrike and Displacement last all day with one casting. Keep in mind that the polymorph subschool (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060501a&page=5) does not change any existing spells, such as Polymorph, Alter Self, Draconic Polymorph, and Shapechange, it only applies to spells that have been printed with that subschool following their school of magic.

If you're not playing a human character, you can use Alter Self to turn into a human and get a bonus feat and max ranks in a class skill for the duration. You can get a Knowledge skill and Skill Focus in it if you need obscure information. You can get a Craft skill with Skill Focus and cast Fabricate to make anything you want. You could even cast it Persistent to get an item creation feat to make magic items.

This setup looks okay. Just in case, what would be the closest equivalent without the UA feature? What feat would be the best to replace with Leadership, so I can get a cohort to make magic items?

streakster
2009-04-29, 05:55 PM
Maybe Improved Init? It's a great feat, but you might be able to have your new buddy make some init bonus items (and take Nerveskitter) for you to cover. Unless that's a prereq for something...

If the DM says no to Artificer, an Archivist might also make a good buddy. Insanely huge spell list for crafting, and can buff you up in combat. And, of course, Wizard.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-04-29, 07:23 PM
Maybe go with this instead:
1) Power Attack, Combat Casting
2) Improved Initiative
3) Practiced Spellcaster, Quick Draw
6) Arcane Strike
9) Leadership
12) Extend Spell
13) Combat Reflexes
15) Minor Shapeshift or Quicken Spell
18) Persistent Spell

You don't really want to delay Arcane Strike, and you can't get either any sooner than level 6. Extend Spell is mostly there to be able to get Persistent Spell, you can get a Lesser Rod of Extend and probably not even worry about ever using the feat so push it back even later if you want. I'm having second thoughts about Minor Shapeshift, it has some useful benefits but between Nerveskitter, swift Abjurations like Shield, Wraithstrike, Greater Mirror Image, etc. you probably won't ever have time to use it.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-04-29, 07:25 PM
Maybe Improved Init? It's a great feat, but you might be able to have your new buddy make some init bonus items (and take Nerveskitter) for you to cover. Unless that's a prereq for something...

If the DM says no to Artificer, an Archivist might also make a good buddy. Insanely huge spell list for crafting, and can buff you up in combat. And, of course, Wizard.

The Wizard'll likely be what I take. I'd have to get the DM to approve Archivist, so that's uncertain.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-04-29, 07:43 PM
Maybe go with this instead:
1) Power Attack, Combat Casting
2) Improved Initiative
3) Practiced Spellcaster, Quick Draw
6) Arcane Strike
9) Leadership
12) Extend Spell
13) Combat Reflexes
15) Minor Shapeshift or Quicken Spell
18) Persistent Spell

You don't really want to delay Arcane Strike, and you can't get either any sooner than level 6. Extend Spell is mostly there to be able to get Persistent Spell, you can get a Lesser Rod of Extend and probably not even worry about ever using the feat so push it back even later if you want. I'm having second thoughts about Minor Shapeshift, it has some useful benefits but between Nerveskitter, swift Abjurations like Shield, Wraithstrike, Greater Mirror Image, etc. you probably won't ever have time to use it.

Is this with or without the UA swap?

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-04-29, 07:46 PM
That's with the UA variant, if you can't use that you'll probably want to start off like this:
1) Power Attack, Combat Casting
2) Quick Draw
3) Practiced Spellcaster, Scribe Scroll

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-04-29, 08:36 PM
I'll probably go with the latter construction. The fewer non-core stuff I have to propose to my DM, the higher likelihood of getting the other stuff accepted. Okay, here's the new and improved build:

1. Fighter 1 Power Attack, Combat Casting
2. Fighter 2 Quick Draw
3. Wizard 1 Practiced Spellcaster, Scribe Scroll
4. Wizard 2
5. Wizard 3
6. Wizard 4 Arcane Strike
7. Spellsword 1
8. Abjurant Champion 1
9. Abjurant Champion 2 Leadership
10. Abjurant Champion 3
11. Abjurant Champion 4
12. Abjurant Champion 5 Extend Spell
13. Eldritch Knight 1 Combat Reflexes
14. Eldritch Knight 2
15. Eldritch Knight 3 Minor Shapeshift
16. Eldritch Knight 4
17. Eldritch Knight 5
18. Eldritch Knight 6 Persistent Spell
19. Eldritch Knight 7
20. Eldritch Knight 8

For spells I'll use the "Spellbook" that was reccomended earlier as a guide.

I know that for certain I'll want +x Mithral Fullplate enchanted with Twilight and with Thistledown Underwear.

For weapon, I know that it'll at least be a +x Adamantine Greatsword. What enchantments should I slap on it? Someone mentioned something about crystals. How do those work?

Should I buy any other weapons? What kind? Should they be enchanted, and with what enchantments if so?

Can a belt of magnificence +6 be made? If so, what are the requirements to make it? Neither my DM nor I have the Miniatures Handbook, so a detailed description so he can approve it would help.

What other wondrous items should I invest in? Bracers of Armor? A Cloak of Resistance? Pants of Holy Chainsaws?

What scrolls should I have at all times? What wands should I have at all times?

In short, what is this character's ideal item wishlist?

Thurbane
2009-04-29, 08:48 PM
Belt of Magnificence: This sparkling metal belt projects power and authority. The belt adds a +2, +4 or +6 enhancement bonus to the wearer’s Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence,Wisdom and Charisma scores.
Strong transmutation; CL 18th; Craft Wondrous Item, bear’s endurance, bull’s strength, cat’s grace, eagle’s splendor, fox’s cunning, owl’s wisdom; Price 25,000 gp (+2), 100,000 gp (+4) or 200,000 gp (+6).

streakster
2009-04-29, 08:53 PM
҉ So, items, eh?

Crystals are MIC items - you can slap one on your weapon, and then it gains a bonus. They are ridiculously cheap, and quite effective. They're also great as you can switch them out - fighting ghosts? Don't pay for a ghost touch weapon - just slap on your truedeath crystal! I think that the crystal of arcane strike would work well for your build too, IIRC. Avoid the luminous one, and the phoenix one. They also make armor crystals - cheap, and useful.

As for enhancements, Spellstoring and/or Bloodstone, as I mentioned. Especially since you have a wizard buddy to help with refills, and whirling blade to deliver them at a distance.

herrhauptmann
2009-04-29, 09:03 PM
-Blueshine armor= Your armor is immune to acid damage and rusting attacks. MIC

-Everbright weapon= Flat cost increase, weapon immune rust/acid, can flare up a few times and possibly blind enemies. With luck, you'll blind the enemy as often as your allies.

-Anti-impact armor= Bludgeoning damage you recieve that affects the whole body is halved. That's falling, crushing (boulders, walls etc) and being EATEN (flat cost)

-Mask of Synthesete: A psion power and custom item. You become able to retain your vision when blinded, or hearing when deafened, but not both at the sametime. The power is in the SRD, should take either mask slot or hat slot. Not too expensive about 3000.

-Boots of haste- custom versions (works just as the PHB spell), not the 3/day ones in MIC. ~27k

-Dancing shield. Take part of first or second turn to set it, and you've now got a floating shield until end of combat. Still affects your ASF though.

-Magic bedroll- MIC 500gp

-Healing belt- MIC pg 110. 750gp Outstanding item for a low level character, especially if your cleric sucks. Less useful later on, but still worth getting, especially if you can pay extra to get the enchantment added to your belt of magnificence.

-Demolition and Truedeath crystals. The greater versions allow you critical constructs and undead respectively. MIC
Retribution amulet: BoED version. Very expensive, but very worth it. 57k

-Armor crystals: There's plenty of good ones, and if you get the restful one, you should be able to attach it only when you sleep, so you can sleep in your armor without any issue. Move action at first part of midnight combat to swap for a combat oriented crystal.

-Armor Crystal of screening, raises your touch AC (I think only against incorporeal touch attacks), but that could the difference between eating a negative level from a ghost or not.


I gotta say, I'm amazed you're still playing in this group. When the party looted the dragon hoard, were you in the party for that, but left before DM presented the party with loot? If so, you definitely have a right to complain when someone's backup character gets preference over your ONLY character.
Are you guys fighting monsters as appropriate to your level and number of characters? Because you at least, are way behind on your wealth by level.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-04-29, 09:52 PM
I gotta say, I'm amazed you're still playing in this group. When the party looted the dragon hoard, were you in the party for that, but left before DM presented the party with loot? If so, you definitely have a right to complain when someone's backup character gets preference over your ONLY character.
Are you guys fighting monsters as appropriate to your level and number of characters? Because you at least, are way behind on your wealth by level.

No, when the party looted the dragon hoard the kobold sorcerer's player and the halfling rogue/wizard's player were the only ones playing. The rest of the party was someplace else to conveniently excuse the abscence of the players. I was not there at all because I was home for Easter. Our druid's player, and his wife (our bard's player) were not there either because they were visiting family for Easter as well. Our ranger's player was also not there because of Easter. The game with the dragon's hoard was something requested by those two players as something to do that week.

I don't know if we're fighting monsters appropriate to our level or not. Our last battle included about ten or twelve hobgoblins on dire wolves, a frost giant jarl riding a white dragon, two half-fiend fire giants riding mastadons, their fire giant father (who killed my paladin) and their succubus mother. Most of the hobgoblins were taken out by two fireballs and a flame strike, while the dragon took a long time to take down, the half-fiends were tricky because of the mastadons they were riding, and then the fire giant killed me because he got three attacks, all of them hit and one of them critted. Brought me from 77 to -10 in an instant.

I do have a pair of gauntlets of ogre power +2 though, and if what my DM has said about the Reliquary my character has obtained (it's about the size of the Ark of the Covenant), I'll be getting some real cool stuff as soon as I can open it. Which likely won't be for another game or so, since I'm only level 11, and the last guy who owned it was the same level and he couldn't open it either.

It should also be noted that my DM has a number of houserules that change things. Instead of having experience points, our DM lets us level up at the end of each session. Most of our sessions have only one battle, and it's usually of a large enough scale to keep a party of six and their three cohorts on their toes. Plus they're normally smaller parts of a larger battle, as we're in a war-based campaign. Because it doesn't cost experience points to make magic items, we can do it with enough time and gold and have no real worries. Most of my gear has been made. Furthermore, the DM does give us a ton of loot. The thing is most of this loot is mundane gear. Regular weapons and armor that none of us are really interested in using, so we just sell it to get the gold to make other stuff ourselves, as well as selling scrolls to make a profit. Even most of the boss monsters we've fought don't have magic items on them. The episode with the dragon's hoard was probably the one real time where we've found magic items as loot, and the only reason the barbarian cohort has them is because at the time she was the only one who might have need of them at the time. And to be honest, that vorpal sword made all the difference in the last battle. It's what killed the two half-fiend fire giants, which would have probably killed the party if the barbarian didn't dispatch them so quickly.

I'm not the damage dealer in this outfit. That would go to the kobold sorcerer and the elf ranger. I'm the decoy. I have 100 hitpoints to go around without buffs and when I'm fully buffed with Enlarge Person, Bear's Endurance, Bull's Strength, Barkskin, Stoneskin, Dolorous Aim, Haste and Inspire Courage, I can keep even a dragon busy until the others make the crits needed to kill it.

Frankly, if I use this build in a campaign like this, I'll probably be able to steamroll things.

Besides, even if things are way off balance, I've had a lot of fun with this game. I've gotten some great roleplaying opportunities, and my paladin is so integral to the plot that when I got killed by that fire giant, the DM had three solars descend from heaven and bring me back to life, free of charge! The kobold werewolf sorcerer, whose barbarian cohort got the vorpal longsword, was killed in the same battle. The solars didn't raise him.:smallamused:

Starbuck_II
2009-04-29, 10:10 PM
Because it doesn't cost experience points to make magic items, we can do it with enough time and gold and have no real worries. Most of my gear has been made.


That is an awesome reason to craft stuff.

Artificer get free XP to craft so you don't need one with that houserule.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-04-29, 10:16 PM
That is an awesome reason to craft stuff.

Artificer get free XP to craft so you don't need one with that houserule.

And it's precisely why the druid took a wizard cohort. The only reason I don't have uber-souped up gear is because the wizard is rebuilding her spellbook (it was burned by the succubus who had her tortured and raped after she took over her hometown, before said town was liberated by us), and because I don't have enough gold to pay for the enchantments, since even though we sell most of the loot we find, it's still mundane arms and armor we're selling, which is not very profitable. Any magic loot we get we keep for ourselves.

Though I will admit, the barbarian cohort has gotten a helluva lot of preferential treatment lately. Not only is she allowed to keep the magic weapons she got from the dragon's hoard, but later when we found those gauntlets of ogre power +2 and a belt of giant's strength +4, she got the belt of giant's strength instead of me. The reasoning was that my paladin had a 16 STR, while she had a 14, so she needed the item that provided the better boost. A 20 to STR would make my paladin much more effective than the 18 it is with the gauntlets. I'll have to bring this up to my DM on Friday.

Chronos
2009-04-29, 10:56 PM
For weapon, I know that it'll at least be a +x Adamantine Greatsword. What enchantments should I slap on it? First of all, the +x should be +1, and no more than that. You can cast Greater Magic Weapon, which lasts hours per level, so you'll pretty much always have it active, and it doesn't stack with the enhancement bonus that's built into the weapon. Fill up all the rest with other enhancements, and save your gold. Since you're a spellcaster anyway, the best one is probably Spell Storing, and Defending will help you even when you're spending the round casting a spell.

Second, the Belt of Magnificence is only worthwhile if you're getting a significant benefit from all six ability scores. Since you don't really have a use for Wis or Cha, and very little use for Dex, you're much better off making separate items for the abilities you need most (Int and Str, and possibly Con).

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-04-29, 11:05 PM
First of all, the +x should be +1, and no more than that. You can cast Greater Magic Weapon, which lasts hours per level, so you'll pretty much always have it active, and it doesn't stack with the enhancement bonus that's built into the weapon. Fill up all the rest with other enhancements, and save your gold. Since you're a spellcaster anyway, the best one is probably Spell Storing, and Defending will help you even when you're spending the round casting a spell.

Second, the Belt of Magnificence is only worthwhile if you're getting a significant benefit from all six ability scores. Since you don't really have a use for Wis or Cha, and very little use for Dex, you're much better off making separate items for the abilities you need most (Int and Str, and possibly Con).

That makes sense. What are the exact parameters for Spell Storing and Defending? I thought Defending was for off-hand weapons.

Though as for Dex not having much use, I think there was some sort of suggestion a few pages back about using a Twilight Mithral Breastplate with Thistledown Underwear, having a fair to high Dex and some spell called Luminous Armor or something. Is that a better option? I'd rather use the fullplate if I can help it, if only because I think it looks cooler.:smallredface:

Chronos
2009-04-29, 11:56 PM
Oh, Dex isn't completely worthless; it's just a matter of prioritizing. Int, Str, and Con are all higher priorities for you, and a +6 item of each will be a total of 108,000 GP. If you also want to make a +6 Dex item, that's another 36,000, for a total of 144,000 (still a fair chunk cheaper than the Belt of Magnificence, note). On the other hand, pretty much all a +6 Dex item gives you is +3 AC, and a Ring of Protection +4 is only 32,000 GP.

Spell Storing and Defending are both from Core. And Defending can be used on any weapon; it's just that it's most useful on a weapon you're not counting on for your primary offense. So it's good on an off-hand weapon, but it's also good for a main weapon when you're casting a spell instead of attacking.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-04-30, 01:05 AM
I see. So:

+1 Spell Storing Defending adamantine greatsword

+5 Twilight mithral fullplate with Thistledown Underwear

+4 Ring of Protection

+x Headband of Intellect

+x Amulet of Health (that's the Con-boosting item, right?)

+x Belt of Giant Strength

Boots of Haste

+x Bracers of Armor?

+x Cloak of Resistance?

What should I use for the goggles? The vest? The gloves? The other ring?

Are the options I listed here with the question marks good for me, or should I look elsewhere.

And what's this about Custom Items? That sounds a tad leery to me.

herrhauptmann
2009-04-30, 02:04 AM
Customizing magic items is a section which no DM should want intelligent players to read. There is one in the DMG, and one in the MIC.
The basic mechanic I believe is Spell Level * Caster Level * 1000gp for continuous use items.
*1.5 if putting an enchantment onto an item which doesn't 'synergize'. I believe goggles of giants strength is the example given.
* a fraction if the item is not continuous use, but only 1-4 times a day.
*1.5 if stacking different enchantments. Say you have gloves of dex +2, but want to make them gloves of missile snaring AND gloves of dex+2.

That is how they work off the top of my head.



Also, I don't think that bracers of armor stack with actual armor. Because both provide an armor bonus. (I might be opening up a huge can of worms on your thread, and for that, I apologize). The general idea is that different armor enhancements stack (armor + shield + deflection +dodge +morale +sacred etc). But that armor doesn't stack with armor, morale with morale.
Again, exceptions exist (I believe dodge always stacks with dodge. Like a dwarf's dodge vs giants, and the dodge feat). I'd go check right now, but it's late, I'm tired, and my books are all in boxes.
Check vambraces of warding, either BoED or MIC, +2 sacred to AC. Or strongarm bracers, wield a large greatsword, 3d6 damage.

Other items, a few rings that give +5 or 10 certain skills. You don't usually need +10 to swimming, but when you need it, you REALLY need it, especially if you're wearing plate.
Tunic of steadyspellcasting, +something to concentration.
A psychoactive skin, they don't take up equipment slots, but are very expensive.
Goggles of darkvision? Or one which grants you bonuses to things like your spellcraft checks?
Have you put any thought into a backup bludgeoning weapon 'just in case'? Say your next fight is against a huge horde skeletal undead.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-04-30, 02:18 AM
What level are you starting at?

Get one or two Lesser Rods of Extend and at least one Lesser Rod of Quicken. Don't worry about Bracers of Armor, they don't stack with your regular armor or with (Greater) Mage Armor. Also don't worry about a Cloak of Resistance, instead cast Superior Resistance on yourself every day. Mind Blank is another good buff to use daily. You'll also want a Ring of Freedom of Movement, and a Gemstone of Heavy Fortification from the Draconomicon is another good item to have.

Forget Boots of Speed, go for Boots of Temporal Acceleration (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/universalItems.htm#bootsofTemporalAcceleration) instead. Swift Action: gain two full rounds; First round: Draconic Polymorph: War Troll, Shield (swift), move up; Second round: Freezing Fog on whoever you're not going to be attacking or Ironguard on yourself, (Rod of) Extended Wraithstrike (swift), move up; Temporal Acceleration ends, Arcane Strike and Full Attack (it's still your turn, you've only used a swift action so far), and don't forget to Power Attack. Pay x2 the price for the boots to make them usable 2/day, pay 3x to use them 3/day, etc. Second round Wraithstrike will still be up, so Arcane Strike and full attack again then cast a (Lesser Rod of) Quickened Whirling Blade, your Arcane Strike and Power Attack bonuses will still apply.

On second thought, you definitely want to switch out Minor Shapeshift. It only works if you have a spell of the polymorph subschool prepared, and you don't want to use any of those if you can get Alter Self, Polymorph, and Draconic Polymorph, so the feat won't be of any use. Instead I'd get either Quicken Spell or Sculpt Spell, the latter is spectacular for use with Whirling Blade assuming you can put all four 10' cubes on top each other and get four attacks on each creature within.

I wouldn't take any build advice from any of WotC's books, you'll end up with a very mediocre character.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-04-30, 07:38 PM
If I ever get a chance to play this character it'll likely start at level 1.

I'll change Minor Shapeshift to Quicken Spell, since everyone seems to be reccomending it.

Anything else I should know?

Myrmex
2009-04-30, 07:51 PM
Don't pick up quicken spell until level 9 to 12. Before that, unless you have serious metamagic reducers, it's useless. A fifth level spell is way better than an extra first level spell.

For AC: +1 defending armor spikes with greater magic weapon on them can be a relatively cheap source for touch AC.

Bluebeard
2009-04-30, 07:57 PM
Anything else I should know?PHB2's Retraining is godly if allowed.
Even Toughness is better than Combat Casting until level 3.

And only Battle Sorcerers qualify for Arcane Strike at level 6. (I can't think of anything else anyway...)
I'd swap it with either Leadership or Extend Spell.

And yeah, Luminous Armor is great if you can use it.

Myrmex
2009-04-30, 08:13 PM
Really? You prefer toughness over combat concentration? Combat Concentration gets knocked frequently, but unless you're a gnome or dwarf, your con score usually won't be high enough to make it so casting your highest level spells is not without danger.

A level 3 wizard with 14 con has a concentration check of +9. To cast his second level spells, he needs to roll an 8 or better. That is 40% spell failure. That's like the ASF from a shield and heavy armor.

Being able to cast a spell while being threated by an ogre is more important than being at -4 rather than -7 when you get hit by said ogre, imo.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-04-30, 08:20 PM
...What's a battle sorcerer? I think I'm able to meet the requirements by level 6, aren't I?

Bluebeard
2009-04-30, 08:29 PM
Really? You prefer toughness over combat concentration?
Sure. He doesn't get spells until level 3.
Take a real feat at level 1, retrain it to Combat Casting whenever you need to.

...What's a battle sorcerer? I think I'm able to meet the requirements by level 6, aren't I?
Battle Sorcerer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererVariantBattleS orcerer) is a gish variant in Unearthed Arcana. It trades a spell known and a spell per day from each Sorcerer spell level in exchange for cleric BA and HD.
PHB2's retraining rules removed the one draw I saw Battle Sorcerer having: the ability to swap out spells when they become obselete.

I remember Arcane Strike prerequisites being +4 BA and 3rd level spells. It's the latter that slows you down.

Myrmex
2009-04-30, 08:53 PM
Sure. He doesn't get spells until level 3.
Take a real feat at level 1, retrain it to Combat Casting whenever you need to.

I know taking fighter 1st gives you 6 more hit points than wizard, but I like wizard first in my gish builds, to keep concentration and spellcraft skills in class. Typically go wizard1/fighter1 (or paladin)/wizard2.

Chronos
2009-04-30, 09:24 PM
On second thought, you definitely want to switch out Minor Shapeshift. It only works if you have a spell of the polymorph subschool prepared, and you don't want to use any of those if you can get Alter Self, Polymorph, and Draconic Polymorph, so the feat won't be of any use.Weren't those retroactively added to the polymorph subschool? Even if they weren't, in the book, you should ask your DM about it anyway.


I know taking fighter 1st gives you 6 more hit points than wizardWell, only 3 more, in the long run. The fighter level you take at 1st is a fighter level you're not taking at some point later in the build, when the hit die would be rolled.

Harperfan7
2009-04-30, 09:45 PM
I don't know where that belt of magnificence came from, but anything that gives you +6 to all ability scores should cost 396,000gp.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-04-30, 09:59 PM
According to what people are saying, it's from the Miniatures Handbook.

So does this build qualify for Arcane Strike at level 6 or not?

Thurbane
2009-04-30, 10:28 PM
I don't know where that belt of magnificence came from, but anything that gives you +6 to all ability scores should cost 396,000gp.
Specific trumps general. :smalltongue:

It is indeed from the Miniatures Handbook. Most of the new magic items therein were reprinted and/or revised in the MIC, but not the Belt of Magnificence.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-04-30, 10:29 PM
That should be a big red flag in my opinion.

Thurbane
2009-04-30, 10:49 PM
I've seen the merits/balance of the BoM debated before, and also earlier in this thread. Yes, it is cheaper than 6 individual +6 items, and frees up 5 body slots; but the general concensus seems to that very few characters really need all 6 abilities enhanced...YMMV...

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-04-30, 11:19 PM
I don't know where that belt of magnificence came from, but anything that gives you +6 to all ability scores should cost 396,000gp.The numer of characters needing +6 to 5 or more scores is incredibly small, and most of them could use the boost(paladins, Monks, gishes).

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-04-30, 11:32 PM
You need a +4 BAB and 3rd level spells to get Arcane Strike, so you'll have to push it back to level 9. I'd been thinking it only took 2nd level spells, but that's the prerequisites for Spellsword.

Quicken Spell is at level 15, definitely not too soon to be usable.

Six +6 Enhancement items should cost a total of 216,000 gp. It's WotC's policy to not make anything cost over 200k, since otherwise it would be an epic item or an artifact. It's only a 16,000 gp discount over getting six different items, and very seldom will a character actually need a boost to all six ability scores, and almost never will a single character want all six individual items. Assuming someone actually wants to get five +6 items, they'll be paying 180,000 gp, or they could pay an extra 20k for a +6 they don't need to roll them all into one item spot. No character should be able to afford one until level 15 if you go by recommended WBL, or level 18 if you can't spend more than half your WBL on a single item. Very seldom will this item even come into play, and when it does, it's either a slight bargain over six separate items, or it's an extra cost for an unneeded bonus to roll them into one item spot.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-04-30, 11:51 PM
What if I swapped Leadership and Arcane Strike? You can take Leadership at level 6, right?

Eldariel
2009-05-01, 01:34 AM
I don't know where that belt of magnificence came from, but anything that gives you +6 to all ability scores should cost 396,000gp.

36k per boost for 6 stats = 216k total, can be rounded to 200k as no character can truly make good use out of all the stats. Frankly, I personally rather use +6 stat enhancers added to my other equipment; it's cheaper and doesn't take a body slot.

Before MiC what you said is true, but by applying MiC rules, the price is perfectly sensible. It's from Miniatures Handbook. Easily the most overused piece of equipment ever, simply because it's easy.

Harperfan7
2009-05-01, 07:31 AM
Six +6 Enhancement items should cost a total of 216,000 gp. It's WotC's policy to not make anything cost over 200k, since otherwise it would be an epic item or an artifact. It's only a 16,000 gp discount over getting six different items, and very seldom will a character actually need a boost to all six ability scores, and almost never will a single character want all six individual items. Assuming someone actually wants to get five +6 items, they'll be paying 180,000 gp, or they could pay an extra 20k for a +6 they don't need to roll them all into one item spot. No character should be able to afford one until level 15 if you go by recommended WBL, or level 18 if you can't spend more than half your WBL on a single item. Very seldom will this item even come into play, and when it does, it's either a slight bargain over six separate items, or it's an extra cost for an unneeded bonus to roll them into one item spot.

When you create a magic item that gives you two different bonuses, it costs the full price of the greater of the two, and double the cost of the other. So for the belt of magnificence, that would be 36,000 + 72,000 (x5), making it above 200k and thus epic. It shouldn't be allowed.

If you want an example, look in sword & fist for the belt of mighty prowess or the headband of perfect excellence. One gives you a +6 to two abilities, the other gives it to three. The belt costs 108,000 (36,000 + 72,000) and the headband costs 180,000 (36,000 + 72,000 + 72,000).

Eldariel
2009-05-01, 08:07 AM
When you create a magic item that gives you two different bonuses, it costs the full price of the greater of the two, and double the cost of the other. So for the belt of magnificence, that would be 36,000 + 72,000 (x5), making it above 200k and thus epic. It shouldn't be allowed.

If you want an example, look in sword & fist for the belt of mighty prowess or the headband of perfect excellence. One gives you a +6 to two abilities, the other gives it to three. The belt costs 108,000 (36,000 + 72,000) and the headband costs 180,000 (36,000 + 72,000 + 72,000).

Yes, and Magic Item Compendium specifically exempts stat enhancers (and basic AC/save buffs) from this rule on the grounds that characters are expected to have them so might as well not make them take space so you can use interesting magic items without sucking.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-05-01, 04:28 PM
Again, am I able to take Leadership at level 6? If I can I'll just swap Arcane Strike and Leadership in the build.

Seatbelt
2009-05-01, 04:40 PM
Leadership is usually dependent on the DM but you qualify at 6th level

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-05-01, 05:13 PM
Well the DM has already allowed Leadership for three different players in our current game, so I see no reason why he'd revoke that in a sequel game (which is what I intend to play this character in).

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-05-03, 10:59 AM
I've spoken with the DM and other players about this, and at least a few of my fellow players are leery of it. To quote one of them:

"If a character has more than one prestige class it's min/maxed."

And I found out about a little houserule my DM has that changes everything. He ignores Arcane Spell Failure, for the most part. His ruling is that if you're proficient with the armor you're wearing, you can cast arcane spells in it without a problem. I wasn't aware of this before because our primary arcane caster, our kobold/werewolf sorcerer, doesn't wear armor anyway, and I our bard was wearing light armor anyway.

Keld Denar
2009-05-03, 11:33 AM
"If a character has more than one prestige class it's min/maxed."


DROOD20!!!!!!

That is all.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-05-03, 12:06 PM
One of the other players is playing a straight druid, and he's not really overpowered. He saved my arse in the last fight. Retrievers are NASTY!!!

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-05-03, 12:11 PM
"If a character has more than one prestige class it's min/maxed."

A single-classed Fighter who takes Iron Will and Weapon Specialization is min-maxing, because those feats work to minimize his weaknesses and maximize his strengths. There is absolutely nothing wrong with doing that, and likewise there is absolutely nothing wrong with taking multiple prestige classes to make a better/stronger character. The only time it will cause any problems is if your group is full of RP snobs who have never heard of the Stormwind Fallacy (http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-822626), in which case it is the RP snobs causing the problem and not you.

Bluebeard
2009-05-03, 04:21 PM
"If a character has more than one prestige class it's min/maxed."

That throws a damper on things.

In that case, I'd take a different approach.
Either:

Fighter 1/Conjurer 6/Eldritch Knight 10/Conjurer 3
Take lockdown feats. Specialize in control spells.
Use battlefield control during your action, get in position to make lots of AoOs during other characters' actions.
Use a Spiked Chain with Enlarge and Polymorph effects to outreach the baddies.
Leave the damage to somebody else.

Sublime Chord would also work.

Or:

A less focused caster.
Either a self-contained Caster/Fighter Prestige class like Suel Arcanamach or Chameleon or a Caster/Fighter base class like Cleric or Duskblade.
None of these would require a whole lot of work to make a decent character.

Alternatively, Psionics can capture the same feel with many of its classes.
Ardent, Psychic Warrior and Slayer are able to match the tactics and abilities of a Gish without much effort.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-05-04, 01:27 PM
They were just teasing. They've seen quite a few players who just min/max and don't bother to justify them with roleplaying. My current paladin is min/maxed, and he just had his grand finale last night, and they were all complimenting me on my awesome roleplaying.

(By the way, that thing about not getting good loot I was talking about earlier? I take it back. My DM gave me a whopping amount of cool stuff yesterday. I reached level 12 and was able to open the Reliquary of Valor, which contained the Hand of Heironeous, Daern's Instant Tent, Daern's Instant Fortress, Murlynd's Spoon, the Banner of Valor and the BOOK OF EXALTED FREAKIN' DEEDS! Needless to say I was so very very happy.)

It doesn't matter if it's min/maxed or not. I just have to make sure his story and behavior justify it, which'll be easy.

Besides, I won't be playing my next character until the next school year, and I'm going to be fiddling around with a lot of other builds for different kinds of characters in the meantime.