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Severedevil
2009-04-28, 02:56 AM
Gripes with martial characters
High level characters are physically superhuman, particularly the martial classes. Yet few of them can even match pace with a first level barbarian. Um... no.

Why not add a move speed bonus to the base attack bonus? For every 5 points of BAB, the characters gets a +10 to their Base Land Speed. Our slo-mo martial classes can always use a bit of extra mobility. Maybe we'll even through them an extra bone - if your land speed is 60 or more, your '5-foot step' is actually 10 feet. (Adjustment step = floor(BLS/6), for a minimum of 5'.) And let them ready their adjustment step (if they didn't use it) as a swift action, because non-TOB fighters really need a use for their swift action. (Great for screening your squishy friends from charging axe murderers, or blocking victims from escape.)

And while we're on the subject of things BAB should give you but doesn't, how about a bit of damage? I'm not asking much - just add base attack bonus to your damage rolls. Give martial representatives a skill-based damage source, rather than just mass strength/enchantments/bonus dice (or ubercharge cheese). That way, a class that can hit can hit for real damage, even if it's just a ranger. (Also, since we just helped our fighter-types out, can we please throw out the third and fourth iterative attacks? The difference between the one attack you get on a move, and the four you get standing still, is unjustifiable.)

Solutions
+10 BLS per five points of BAB: Physically superhuman martial characters are still bloody slow. Get the lead out.

+5' adjustment step for each 30' of BLS beyond 30': Fast characters can shift faster than slow characters.

Ready adjustment step as a swift action: Now you can screen for your squishy friends or follow the retreating baddie without spending your entire turn. And non-TOB martial characters have a use for their swift action.

Add BAB to damage rolls (Halved for secondary natural attacks and offhand attacks.): Expert fighters do the same damage as everyone else, unless they acquired certain special feats or class abilities. Rangers and Paladins wake up in the morning and realize they forget to deal damage.

Remove third and fourth iterative attacks: After two, it's just getting silly. If we give our BAB specialists increasing damage with level, they shouldn't need quadruple attacks just because they stood still. This helps keep fighters mobile, and die rolls manageable.

Change Skirmish to require a move action to trigger: By enhancing character mobility, we accidentally made a trivial workaround for the Scout's class ability. Might as well patch up all the exploits.

Weapon Styles
Armor spikes for grappling only, and no floating shields.

TWF: Full damage from the dominant hand, half damage from the offhand. Add your full strength bonus and any additional damage dice to both, but halve the final result for the offhand. One feat (Two-Weapon Fighting) eliminates the attack penalties. Full iterative attacks with the offhand when you make a full attack. "Improved Two-Weapon Fighting" merges Dual Strike and Two-Weapon Defense into a single feat, allowing coordinated use of both weapons for attack or defense. (Its only pre-req is Two-Weapon Fighting.) A good style for high-dex characters, because you can't finesse a heavy weapon. [We should probably apply a -2/-2 penalty if you don't use a light weapon in the offhand.]

THF: Greater weapon damage than the dominant hand, 1.5x Str applied to damage. TWF needs to spend feats to match your damage and mobility, but they'll surpass you if you don't make good on the feats you saved. The expected default for high-strength characters.

S&B: Full damage from the dominant hand, shield adds to AC. (No floating shields - if you want the defense, you hold the damn thing.) Full strength damage on your attack, of course, and this can be hybridized with TWF by employing shield bashes.

SWF: Full damage from the dominant hand, +3 bonus to attack. Applies when fighting with only a one-handed weapon, and using your second hand to facilitate the attack. (By distracting the foe, double-gripping the weapon, etc.) Add your full strength bonus (NOT 1.5x) to damage. [The bonus to attack may need to scale with level somewhat.]


---

A bastard sword can be used as a one-handed weapon OR a two-handed weapon, so if you've got a buckler and a bastard sword, you can switch freely between all four styles without putting anything down.

And finally, the feats everyone loves.

Power attack

Prerequisite
Base attack bonus +1. [No strength requirement.]

Benefit
On your action, before making attack rolls for a round, you may choose to subtract a number from all melee attack rolls and add the same number to all melee damage rolls. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The penalty on attacks and bonus on damage apply until your next turn.

Special
If you attack with a two-handed weapon, instead add half-again the number subtracted from your attack rolls.

A fighter may select Power Attack as one of his fighter bonus feats.
Note that this allows any melee weapon to power attack, and allows TWF and THF to power attack for 1.5x damage. Power attack no longer represents brute force exclusively - it's simply a form of taking a trickier attack with a greater potential payoff. (*cough* Vitals *cough*)

Weapon Finesse
This feat is free. You can automatically use use Dex for attack bonus with light weapons and rapiers.
Shock Trooper
No.

Rules notes
-Bonuses to move speed apply before penalties from armor or encumbrance.
-Movement penalties from encumbrance are greater for characters with higher move speed. (The penalty is roughly one-third of the character's move speed.)


Are we happy?

Salt_Crow
2009-04-28, 03:04 AM
I can see so many ways to abuse this *fix* with spellcasters XD

sonofzeal
2009-04-28, 03:09 AM
- Boosting move speed could work. I have no particular objection there, as long as it stacks with other speed boosts. I'd want a caveat about Heavy Armor though, maybe cutting the bonus in half.

- Boosting 5-foot-step is more iffy. For one, it makes Skirmish far, far too easy. On the other hand, it'll devalue "strike" maneuvers, giving non-ToB melee builds a leg up when it comes to full-attacks.

- Adding BAB to Damage would get pretty scary in builds with a lot of attacks. You can already leverage your BAB into damage via Power Attack anyway. I could see allowing a "Focused Strike" attack as a Standard Action, to add BAB to damage as long as no Power Attack or Combat Expertise is used. Might give it out as a freebie "bonus feat" to any character that hits BAB 6.

Severedevil
2009-04-28, 03:32 AM
Boosting move speed could work. I have no particular objection there, as long as it stacks with other speed boosts.

Aye, an untyped bonus to base land speed. None of this Monk-style silliness where your feet get enhancement bonuses.


I'd want a caveat about Heavy Armor though, maybe cutting the bonus in half.

The bonus applies before the penalty for medium or heavy armor, so that's not a problem. (Recall that for faster characters, heavy armor is more than a -10 move speed penalty. I think your encumbered speed is always two-thirds of your unencumbered speed, rounded up to the nearest 5'.)


Boosting 5-foot-step is more iffy. For one, it makes Skirmish far, far too easy.

Skirmish should require a move action to activate. Isn't that the point of the "at least 10 feet" restriction?


On the other hand, it'll devalue "strike" maneuvers, giving non-ToB melee builds a leg up when it comes to full-attacks.

Whoo!


Adding BAB to Damage would get pretty scary in builds with a lot of attacks. You can already leverage your BAB into damage via Power Attack anyway. I could see allowing a "Focused Strike" attack as a Standard Action, to add BAB to damage as long as no Power Attack or Combat Expertise is used. Might give it out as a freebie "bonus feat" to any character that hits BAB 6.

I'm curious; aside from AoO exploits, how does a build get lots of attacks? TWF doesn't get very many, and it's currently underpowered anyway. (Also, I think the offhand attacks should do half damage instead of the current penalties, but that's running into other recommended fixes. It does ameliorate the current melee rogue's addiction to TWF, though.)

I very much want something like this in place, because supposed combatants like the ranger or paladin often wake up and realize they don't do any damage. Your non-ubercharger should be able to pick up a weapon that wasn't forged by the gods themselves and pwn some noobs with it.

Dixieboy
2009-04-28, 04:26 AM
Great, the monk went from subpar to completely useless. :smallfrown:

Blackfang108
2009-04-28, 10:18 AM
Great, the monk went from subpar to completely useless. :smallfrown:

He's still better than the CW Samarai(sp?)

Severedevil
2009-04-28, 11:44 AM
Both Monk and CW Samurai are made stronger by this adjustment. The monk benefits particularly from BAB added to damage, because he can makes so many attacks, and the improved adjustment step.

The monk's speed edge over other martial characters is slightly reduced, but his move speed progression stacks with my suggested bonus from BAB. So a level 20 monk now has a 120' move speed without items. (Also, shift the monk's move speed bonus from an enhancement to an untyped bonus. It's quite silly that his feet become magic.)

ZeroNumerous
2009-04-28, 12:49 PM
I'm curious; aside from AoO exploits, how does a build get lots of attacks? TWF doesn't get very many, and it's currently underpowered anyway.

Magic of Incarnum. Totemist in particular just got an extra 60 to 80 damage using BAB to damage.

Eldariel
2009-04-28, 12:58 PM
Magic of Incarnum. Totemist in particular just got an extra 60 to 80 damage using BAB to damage.

One word: Druids.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-04-28, 12:58 PM
Skirmish should require a move action to activate. Isn't that the point of the "at least 10 feet" restriction?Yes, but there are ways around that. Travel Devotion, DC 40 Tumble, Sparring Dummy of the Master, ToB, and under your houserules, 5ft stepping.
I'm curious; aside from AoO exploits, how does a build get lots of attacks? TWF doesn't get very many, and it's currently underpowered anyway. (Also, I think the offhand attacks should do half damage instead of the current penalties, but that's running into other recommended fixes. It does ameliorate the current melee rogue's addiction to TWF, though.)Full Attack. At level 11, that's 4 attacks getting +11 damage. That number is non-minor. At 6th, you're looking at 2-3 attack without Monk, Whirling Frenzy, TWF, ToB, or any other means of boosting. That's still a significant increase in numbers, which isn't what melee needs, especially if you're just making full-attacks more important.

Edit:1st level Kobolds just got even more deadly. Do you really want that?

Lycar
2009-04-28, 02:08 PM
At level 11, that's 4 attacks getting +11 damage. That number is non-minor. At 6th, you're looking at 2-3 attack without Monk, Whirling Frenzy, TWF, ToB, or any other means of boosting. That's still a significant increase in numbers, which isn't what melee needs, especially if you're just making full-attacks more important.


- Add BAB to damage rolls.
- Remove third and fourth iterative attacks.

It would appear the OP's idea was to do away with iteratives to get away from full round action dependency for melee.

You know, to make a melee standard action actually worth something.

Like even level 9 spells still be mere standard actions and such.

Might want to limit the BAB bonus to damage for AoOs though, otherwise an AoO-Machiene gets a bit scary.

Lycar

Severedevil
2009-04-28, 02:14 PM
One word: Druids.

I looked through the wild shape forms; pounce/rake could be a problem. What if we halve the damage bonus for secondary/offhand attacks?


Yes, but there are ways around that. Travel Devotion, DC 40 Tumble, Sparring Dummy of the Master, ToB, and under your houserules, 5ft stepping.

Then we correct Skirmish to require a move action. The other workarounds you mention are exploits of a poorly-phrased ability.


That's still a significant increase in numbers, which isn't what melee needs

Hmm... this is important. What does melee need?


Edit:1st level Kobolds just got even more deadly. Do you really want that?

Why is it a problem that 1st level kobold warriors are now more deadly? If you're worried that warriors will kill your party, use a weaker NPC class. (Humanoid hit dice, perhaps? Like warrior, but with midling BAB and fewer equipment proficiencies.)


It would appear the OP's idea was to do away with iteratives to get away from full round action dependency for melee.

You know, to make a melee standard action actually worth something.

Yay!

I want a full attack to be stronger than a standard attack, but not by as much as it becomes when the fighter-type picks up third and fourth hits.

We might also reduce the BAB-to-damage bonus by five for the second attack. (Since it's kind of made at BAB minus five.)


Might want to limit the BAB bonus to damage for AoOs though, otherwise an AoO-Machine gets a bit scary.

Eek, that could hurt. The trouble with AoO machines is they get a very large number of attacks made at the full base attack bonus, which is very strong regardless. We could weaken it a bit by making the BAB-to-damage bonus decay for iterated Attacks of Opportunity, or make it decay for attacks made each round beyond the first. (So that attacks are somewhat weaker when you make many of them, regardless of whether they're Attacks of Opportunity or not. Secondary/offhand attacks wouldn't count for that diminishment.)

Thoughts?

sonofzeal
2009-04-28, 02:38 PM
The bonus applies before the penalty for medium or heavy armor, so that's not a problem. (Recall that for faster characters, heavy armor is more than a -10 move speed penalty. I think your encumbered speed is always two-thirds of your unencumbered speed, rounded up to the nearest 5'.)
You'll need to make that explicit within your new rules though. Otherwise, a lot of people will "forget" and apply it wrongly. Also, I don't think everyone's all that familiar with the rules for heavy armor on a faster-than-normal character, since it isn't on the major armor charts. And there's no harm repeating the rules just to remind people.


Skirmish should require a move action to activate. Isn't that the point of the "at least 10 feet" restriction?
Agreed. But if your 5-foot-step is actually 10 feet, that basically activates it for free. I'd either remove it, or put an exception in.



I'm curious; aside from AoO exploits, how does a build get lots of attacks? TWF doesn't get very many, and it's currently underpowered anyway. (Also, I think the offhand attacks should do half damage instead of the current penalties, but that's running into other recommended fixes. It does ameliorate the current melee rogue's addiction to TWF, though.)
Totemist, as already mentioned. PsyWar too.

Races with natural weapons can get large numbers of attacks too (as long as they also wield a weapon to take advantage of iteratives).

Monk1/Rogue9/MasterThrower5 can use Flurry+Rapidshot+Palmthrow+TWF to fling an astounding number of daggers in a turn, at the cost of attack modifier (but Wraithstrike makes it more viable).

ToB has a few options that'd help too, especially Flashing Sun and Dancing Mongoose.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-04-28, 02:47 PM
Then we correct Skirmish to require a move action. The other workarounds you mention are exploits of a poorly-phrased ability.Which does what for Travel Devotion/ToB? Not that I'm saying the Scout is OP, I love the class but it's not overpowered. It's just that allowing free Skirmish activation is almost certainly not supposed to be possible. All methods of Move+Full Attack require either levels or feats, which is as it should be. I don't recommend changing the ability one bit.
Hmm... this is important. What does melee need?Options. The ability to attack defenses beyond AC, and to impose effects beyond HP damage. It needs to be able to utelize either Standard actions for mobile fighting, or full-round actions for holding the line. Classes need to be able to represent every archetype from the sophisticated fencer to the S&B Knight without any of those sucking. It needs out-of-combat actions, and ways to change their repetiore to deal with different situations. A pure boost to AB/Damage just turns melee into more of one-trick ponies, where either all enemies put their effort into avoiding getting hit, or they die. That's no better than the current situation. The Ubercharger deals several million damage, and melee is still underpowered. Numbers aren't the answer.

Fortunately WotC published a fix for core melee. It's called Tome of Battle, and it does all of the above.
Why is it a problem that 1st level kobold warriors are now more deadly? If you're worried that warriors will kill your party, use a weaker NPC class. (Humanoid hit dice, perhaps? Like warrior, but with midling BAB and fewer equipment proficiencies.)Kobolds get 3 natural attacks. They're CR=level-3. Normally that just means Adepts are EVIL, but under your system, a warrior would be dealing(assuming WepFinesse and Multiattack) [1d3+4]x3 at +7/+7/+5. A full-round attack drops any of the players except the meatshield, and even he bites it if all 3 hit unless he's con-focused(or a Barb).

Oslecamo
2009-04-28, 02:58 PM
Fortunately WotC published a fix for core melee. It's called Tome of Battle, and it does all of the above.

By your definition of sucking, ToB still sucks great time, because the batman wizard is still throwing the warblade and pals to his personal plane of torture as a swift action.

Or you could just admit all you wanted were shiny names, wich is the only thing ToB really delivers new to melee.

Severedevil
2009-04-28, 03:08 PM
By your definition of sucking, ToB still sucks great time, because the batman wizard is still throwing the warblade and pals to his personal plane of torture as a swift action.

Or you could just admit all you wanted were shiny names, wich is the only thing ToB really delivers new to melee.

Please don't start this.

I'm not a fan of TOB, because I don't like the idea of special fighting moves that have to be recharged. However, TOB legitimately offers fighting classes additional options.

Eldariel
2009-04-28, 03:08 PM
Or you could just admit all you wanted were shiny names, wich is the only thing ToB really delivers new to melee.

An aside:
Huh? ToB gives melee:
-Vastly improved mobility (standard action strikes & swift action movement and stuff like Bounding Assault; now a melee character can move and attack, and actually move rather long distances while at it)
-Vastly expanded non-combat utility abilities
-Ability to do good damage regardless of your weapon
-Ability to penetrate any damage reductions when you really need to
-Vastly improved defensive capabilities (abilities to improve their magical and mundane defenses, everything from blocking attacks to improving saves)
-Gives you multiple different ways to attack an opponent without needing to invest a feat into every separate attack style you want to master (this frees up feats to their original purpose of improving things characters can do instead of being necessary for melee to...know how to do anything; also makes attacking more interesting than "I hit that guy")

How is that not everything that was wrong with melee? Sure, you still aren't teleporting across the planes leaving a swath of destruction in your wake, but you certainly have much better chance of reaching the pesky Wizard on the battlefield and surviving his initial barrage.

The one thing ToB didn't provide sufficiently are anti-caster maneuvers; stuff that allows negating some spells (well, there's always Ironheart Surge, but that's just one), limiting Wizard's options of escape, limiting Wizard's defenses, etc. would've been very welcome, but it already fixed a fckton; we can homebrew the rest.

Myrmex
2009-04-28, 03:18 PM
I would change Power Attack to +1 damage, regardless of how many hands you use, and not let BAB apply to natural attacks for damage. This would make the sword & board-er more viable, reduce the tendency towards all fighters being chargers, make TWFers more viable (rogues still dish out solid damage vs. undead, or what have you), prevent the druid from cheesing out, and keep damage from dragons and other high HD, lots of natural attack monsters from murdering everything within reach.

Rangers just got a boost, too. =)

Severedevil
2009-04-28, 04:52 PM
I would change Power Attack to +1 damage, regardless of how many hands you use, and not let BAB apply to natural attacks for damage. This would make the sword & board-er more viable, reduce the tendency towards all fighters being chargers, make TWFers more viable (rogues still dish out solid damage vs. undead, or what have you), prevent the druid from cheesing out, and keep damage from dragons and other high HD, lots of natural attack monsters from murdering everything within reach.

Rangers just got a boost, too. =)

BAB should definitely apply to primary natural attacks for damage, but I can see the argument for not applying it to secondary natural attacks. (My recommendation - apply half the bonus.) Usually the concern is characters that can sneak in dozens of secondary natural attacks using bizarre tricks.

Dragons are mechanically a problem because all big monsters have massive BAB. This makes no sense, because 'being big' doesn't translate into martial skill. (And they already get enormous strength bonuses to attack.) This is a problem with D&D's monster system, which could also use a fix. (Don't include monster hit dice as part of the character's level, don't put skill points/BAB on monster hit dice. Instead, count 'bonus hit dice' as another advantage compensated by LA.)

I have separate recommendations for different fighting styles. (THF, TWF, S&B, and single-weapon fighting.) They're under the spoiler.

Armor spikes for grappling only, and no floating shields.

TWF: Full damage from the dominant hand, half damage from the offhand. Add your full strength bonus and any additional damage dice to both, but halve the final result for the offhand. One feat (Two-Weapon Fighting) eliminates the attack penalties. Full iterative attacks with the offhand when you make a full attack. "Improved Two-Weapon Fighting" merges Dual Strike and Two-Weapon Defense into a single feat, allowing coordinated use of both weapons for attack or defense. (Its only pre-req is Two-Weapon Fighting.) A good style for high-dex characters, because you can't finesse a heavy weapon.

THF: 1.5x Str applied to damage. TWF needs to spend feats to match your damage and mobility, but they'll surpass you if you don't make good on the feats you saved. The expected default for high-strength characters.

S&B: You get a shield, for extra defense. (No floating shields - if you want the defense, you hold the damn thing.) Full strength damage on your attack, of course, and this can be hybridized with TWF by employing shield bashes.

SWF: When fighting with only a one-handed weapon, your additional hand grants you a +2 bonus to attack. You get this bonus as long as you use your second hand to facilitate the attack, either by distracting the opponent or by double-gripping your weapon. Add your full strength bonus (NOT 1.5x) to damage. [The bonus to attack may need to scale with level somewhat.]

And finally, the feats everyone loves.

Power attack

Prerequisite
Base attack bonus +1. [No strength requirement.]

Benefit
On your action, before making attack rolls for a round, you may choose to subtract a number from all melee attack rolls and add the same number to all melee damage rolls. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The penalty on attacks and bonus on damage apply until your next turn.

Special
If you attack with a two-handed weapon, instead add half-again the number subtracted from your attack rolls.

A fighter may select Power Attack as one of his fighter bonus feats.
Note that this allows any melee weapon to power attack, and allows TWF and THF to power attack for 1.5x damage. Power attack no longer represents brute force exclusively - it's simply a form of taking a trickier attack with a greater potential payoff. (*cough* Vitals *cough*)

Weapon Finesse
This feat is free. You can automatically use use Dex for attack bonus with light weapons and rapiers.

Shock Trooper
No.




Which does what for Travel Devotion/ToB? Not that I'm saying the Scout is OP, I love the class but it's not overpowered. It's just that allowing free Skirmish activation is almost certainly not supposed to be possible.

I agree. I think that Skirmish activation should require a Move Action. Travel Devotion is quite useful whether or not you Skirmish.


All methods of Move+Full Attack require either levels or feats, which is as it should be.

My obstinate reply: if you can't get a move action and a full attack, you can't trigger Skirmish and make a full attack. (However, I don't object to the existence of feats to allow extra actions.)


[Melee fighters need] Options. The ability to attack defenses beyond AC, and to impose effects beyond HP damage.

I'd be up for allowing attacks to impose effects beyond HP damage. (Some already do, such as prone/pinned/disarmed, and of course items/poison can allow you certain effects.) I'd be glad to hear proposals.

But I'm not sold on the ability to attack defenses beyond AC. AC, DR, and HP are the ability to avoid or minimize physical damage. What do you plan to attack?


It needs to be able to utilize either Standard actions for mobile fighting, or full-round actions for holding the line. Classes need to be able to represent every archetype from the sophisticated fencer to the S&B Knight without any of those sucking. It needs out-of-combat actions, and ways to change their repetiore to deal with different situations.

Agreed, but Fighter can do all of that. Particularly if you bump his skill points and/or ability points up a bit. (If Fencer/S&B Knight aren't viable, then we need to introduce new feats or fighting techniques that make them useful. That, and give them a source of damage that scales effectively with level, such as BAB.)


A pure boost to AB/Damage just turns melee into more of one-trick ponies, where either all enemies put their effort into avoiding getting hit, or they die. That's no better than the current situation. The Ubercharger deals several million damage, and melee is still underpowered. Numbers aren't the answer.

If melee has to charge and stack feat chains to do enough damage to be a threat, that's a problem. A boost to damage does in fact ameliorate that problem. If your character has to charge, or has to full attack to seriously threaten the opponent, that limits their options. (Also, by saving feats that had to be spent on cheesy chains, you might be able to afford both ranged and melee prowess. Wowee!)


Fortunately WotC published a fix for core melee. It's called Tome of Battle, and it does all of the above.

TOB does not solve the problem to my satisfaction, because maneuvers are spells. I don't feel a melee fighter should have to prepare and expand special moves in combat. To me, that's just as bad as charging up a Rage Meter, or getting Limit Breaks.


Kobolds get 3 natural attacks. They're CR=level-3. Normally that just means Adepts are EVIL, but under your system, a warrior would be dealing(assuming WepFinesse and Multiattack) [1d3+4]x3 at +7/+7/+5. A full-round attack drops any of the players except the meatshield, and even he bites it if all 3 hit unless he's con-focused(or a Barb).

I'm looking at the SRD and not seeing Kobolds with natural weapons.

Anyway, the Kobold in your example is a Warrior 4, right? Then your damage figures look correct. (Although I said we should halve the damage from secondary natural attacks, so the bite would be only 1d3+1. Do Kobolds really have a bite attack?) However, that's a full attack in a single-monster encounter, and you expect one of the attacks to miss. (14-15 AC for a first level melee combatant.) A Kobold warrior 4 built according to your specs (12 Str, 13 dex) also only has 4d8-4 hit points, which averages 14, and flimsy will saves for your wizard to target. That sounds about right for a CR1 encounter.

monty
2009-04-28, 05:00 PM
I'm looking at the SRD and not seeing Kobolds with natural weapons.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a

Severedevil
2009-04-28, 05:12 PM
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a

Thank you. But that's still a variant, and it makes Kobolds better than the CR-3 standard. If you use that variant, especially with my variant, perhaps you should bump Kobolds up to CR-2.

Hat-Trick
2009-04-28, 05:46 PM
A fix to melees? Hit locations. A trained melee combatant should be able to dearm/deleg/behead/eviscerate their opponents. Chop off the wizard's hands, he can't cast anything that isn't still or non-somatic, cut off his head, he's not doing much of anything. There should be rules for losing limbs.

That covers doing more than doing HP, right? It's still linked to HP damage, but it's a step up.

Severedevil
2009-04-28, 06:07 PM
A fix to melees? Hit locations. A trained melee combatant should be able to dearm/deleg/behead/eviscerate their opponents. Chop off the wizard's hands, he can't cast anything that isn't still or non-somatic, cut off his head, he's not doing much of anything. There should be rules for losing limbs.

That covers doing more than doing HP, right? It's still linked to HP damage, but it's a step up.

I think if you can hack off a limb, you can just kill the opponent straight up. Perhaps if your damage exceeds his remaining HP, you could aim to maim instead of kill...

Chronos
2009-04-28, 06:16 PM
Some people seem to be complaining that this would put standard warrior types on a par with Tome of Battle.

How is this a bad thing? If the ToB classes are at a good level, balance-wise, then putting fighters on a par with them would mean that fighters would also be at a good level, balance-wise. This sounds to me like an eminently good thing.

My biggest complaint with ToB has always been that instead of fixing the existing martial classes, it replaced them with something else. More options isn't a problem, but it isn't a solution, either. Sometimes, some players like to play a character whose combat "maneuver" is "I hit it with my sharp metal thing, and then next round I hit it with my sharp metal thing again", and ToB doesn't really do anything for characters like that.

Hat-Trick
2009-04-28, 07:09 PM
I think if you can hack off a limb, you can just kill the opponent straight up. Perhaps if your damage exceeds his remaining HP, you could aim to maim instead of kill...

Hence the, 'If he loses his head, he's not doing much of anything.' :smalltongue: Pretty much, you take a penalty to hit a body part. If you do so much damage to said body part, it falls off.

Myrmex
2009-04-28, 07:53 PM
I like your spoiled fixes. I've always thought weapon finesse should be a free feat; dex or str applies to attacks, whichever is better.

How would you feel about dex to damage on ranged attacks (in place of mighty; like "well crafted")? It would further reduce the MAD of martial characters without calling for convoluted shenanigans.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-04-28, 08:18 PM
I agree. I think that Skirmish activation should require a Move Action. Travel Devotion is quite useful whether or not you Skirmish.

My obstinate reply: if you can't get a move action and a full attack, you can't trigger Skirmish and make a full attack. (However, I don't object to the existence of feats to allow extra actions.)I'm not saying eliminate the ways for a Scout to activate Skirmish. Right now, pre-fixes, they're balanced with the Rogue, which is nice. Why mess with that?
Agreed, but Fighter can do all of that. Particularly if you bump his skill points and/or ability points up a bit. (If Fencer/S&B Knight aren't viable, then we need to introduce new feats or fighting techniques that make them useful. That, and give them a source of damage that scales effectively with level, such as BAB.)What game are you playing? Fighters can trip..if their opponent is their size or smaller, and doesn't have a better Str, and doesn't magically fly. They can disarm...if their foe is wielding a weapon. They can grapple...if they want to eliminate their own damage capabilities. Options that suck!=options.

They can use skills out of combat. As long as they only need 2. And there's no caster around to replce your skill with a 3rd level spell.

They can change their capabilities. As long as they only need to once per level, and are willing to spend the time and XP. If, say, they're going to be attacking a Lich within the next 24 hours and want something more effective than SA...sorry.
If melee has to charge and stack feat chains to do enough damage to be a threat, that's a problem. A boost to damage does in fact ameliorate that problem. If your character has to charge, or has to full attack to seriously threaten the opponent, that limits their options. (Also, by saving feats that had to be spent on cheesy chains, you might be able to afford both ranged and melee prowess. Wowee!)So, we make melee damage/hitting work without any investment. A Fighter can now deal enough damage to kill the Tarrasque in one hit. He comes up against a 9th level Wizard. Wind Wall+Overland Flight. Now what? The problem isn't that Fighter doesn't do enough, it's that everything he does is 'hit it with a stick'. When he can hit it, he's great. But anything stops that hitting, suddenly you wish you had an empty slot in the party, because he's just soaking XP now. He needs his stick to be effective enough to work with the rest of the party when it's possible, and he needs to have other options that work with the party when it doesn't. Rogues get skills, UMD, and Penetrating Strike, Casters get Orbs, Bards get buffs, Fighters get...nothing. Under your system, they get a bigger stick. That's great, except the problem isn't that they don't have high enough AB/damage, it's that they lack effective options beyond AB/damage.
TOB does not solve the problem to my satisfaction, because maneuvers are spells. I don't feel a melee fighter should have to prepare and expand special moves in combat. To me, that's just as bad as charging up a Rage Meter, or getting Limit Breaks.If ToB doesn't work for you, you can make your own reworking of the system. IMHO, though, any Fighter fix is going to be at least that different from current combat, so might as well look past a but of odd fluff rather than writing a whole new system up(and it's not that bad, once you call the Crusader 'Paladin' and the Swordsage 'Monk', their systems seem a lot more reasonable. Warblade you just have to not think about too hard).

Squider
2009-04-28, 10:17 PM
A Fighter can now deal enough damage to kill the Tarrasque in one hit. He comes up against a 9th level Wizard. Wind Wall+Overland Flight. Now what? The problem isn't that Fighter doesn't do enough, it's that everything he does is 'hit it with a stick'. When he can hit it, he's great. But anything stops that hitting, suddenly you wish you had an empty slot in the party, because he's just soaking XP now. He needs his stick to be effective enough to work with the rest of the party when it's possible, and he needs to have other options that work with the party when it doesn't. Rogues get skills, UMD, and Penetrating Strike, Casters get Orbs, Bards get buffs, Fighters get...nothing. Under your system, they get a bigger stick. That's great, except the problem isn't that they don't have high enough AB/damage, it's that they lack effective options beyond AB/damage.


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Myrmex
2009-04-29, 12:01 AM
I think rogues only come ahead of fighters when there out of combat situations. Otherwise, they're pretty much the same class, except the rogue has lower damage potential. All of a rogue's damage is based on full attacks, while at least with a fighter, you can get a solid charge in. As for UMD... well, let's just say that it makes monks good :smallwink:

Fighters should get more unique abilities, not +to hit or +damage. In D&D, I've found, the best solutions come most frequently from the guy who can make a magical horse from nothing but a bit & bridle, or decide that traversing the 300 ft trapped hallway can wait and just dimension doors the party past it. The fighter, though, has to spend the only resource he gets- feats- on getting the ability to do things he should have been able to do in the first place (trip, disarm, bullrush, power attack, hit someone with a shield, etc). People take it as a given that a wizard should magically be able to do anything (pick a spell from the PHB), but a fighter that's good at knocking things down? You need 3 additional splat books, a weird race, a stupid weapon, psionics and/or spells, 4 feats, and 8 levels.

My solution? Start taking the casters' spells, and the ones they do get to keep, change them. Freedom of Movement gives +10 vs. grapple checks, for instance. Wind wall gives ranged weapons a -5 penalty per 5 CL to shoot through. Fly spells last rounds, not minutes. Teleport is pricey (XP & GP), takes a long time to cast, and only works between known places that are special for teleporting. No scry & teleport.

Of course, this would make wizard players cranky, and going through every spell in every book and tweaking it would be a huge chore, so I just tell the wizards to play nice, and encourage ToB classes.

Frosty
2009-04-29, 12:32 AM
My biggest complaint with ToB has always been that instead of fixing the existing martial classes, it replaced them with something else. More options isn't a problem, but it isn't a solution, either. Sometimes, some players like to play a character whose combat "maneuver" is "I hit it with my sharp metal thing, and then next round I hit it with my sharp metal thing again", and ToB doesn't really do anything for characters like that.

You know, ToB characters can still Full Attack to their heart's content...

Chronos
2009-04-29, 01:03 AM
You know, ToB characters can still Full Attack to their heart's content...Of course, but they're not any better at it than the fighter is. Probably worse, in fact, because the fighter can probably find a bunch of feats that are good for that.

tyckspoon
2009-04-29, 01:10 AM
Of course, but they're not any better at it than the fighter is. Probably worse, in fact, because the fighter can probably find a bunch of feats that are good for that.

Mongoose-line boosts, Time Stands Still, Burning Blade, the Stormguard Warrior feat. The ToB offers a pretty fair selection of ways to make a full attack better (although in honesty most of them are also reasonably easy to get with Fighter bonus feats as well.) Without that, Fighters get.. well, I can't think of much that actually applies best to Full Attacks; most Fighter feats are aimed at making variant fighting options more effective. I suppose there's always the Weapon Focus/Specialization/Mastery line, which have their greatest effect when you make more attacks.

Severedevil
2009-04-29, 05:13 AM
How would you feel about dex to damage on ranged attacks (in place of mighty; like "well crafted")? It would further reduce the MAD of martial characters without calling for convoluted shenanigans.

I'm a little dubious. Partly because I like multiple areas of dependency - each stat should be useful to any given character! - but also because it's unclear to me what the character is doing to increase their damage. When a strong character uses a heavy bow, they can pull it back further and thus apply more force (+damage). When a coordinated character uses a bow, they can aim it more cleanly at the target (+attack).

Now, a ranged form of power attack might be in order. (If it doesn't already exist, call it 'Called Shot'.) That way a more dextrous character, or a character with a well-crafted (masterwork) bow, could trade their extra precision for damage.


I'm not saying eliminate the ways for a Scout to activate Skirmish. Right now, pre-fixes, they're balanced with the Rogue, which is nice. Why mess with that?

It seems to me that Skirmish should be either easy to apply on full attacks, or impossible. If the Scout's balance relies on bizarre cross-splatbook synergies, I feel they're doing it wrong. No base class should require a specific feat to function, unless they come with it free.

Naturally, if Skirmish is too weak or too strong we can simply adjust the number of damage dice.


So, we make melee damage/hitting work without any investment. A Fighter can now deal enough damage to kill the Tarrasque in one hit. He comes up against a 9th level Wizard. Wind Wall+Overland Flight. Now what?

If two spells break the game, I tend to blame the two spells rather than the entire rest of the game. Cap Overland Flight at 30' off the ground, and change Wind Wall to -8 to hit for arrows and -4 for thrown weapons. (Magical flight should also impose a penalty to hit and a 50% fail rate on spells with somatic components. Because yes, it IS hard to stabilize yourself without friction.)

As Myrmex put it, "Start taking the casters' spells, and the ones they do get to keep, change them." But there is another solution...


Fighters should get more unique abilities, not +to hit or +damage.
The problem isn't that Fighter doesn't do enough, it's that everything he does is 'hit it with a stick'.
Fighters are physical - that's their shtick. They use their bodies and objects to overcome obstacles. They hit things with sticks, or bend sticks to propel other sticks at high speeds. And with the right optimization, a fighter's stick can be pretty big.

But wizards quickly figured out, size isn't all-important - it's what you can do with your stick that counts. The fighter's stick is only good for damage, and a careful wizard can block him easily. The fighter either needs a new technique, or a new stick... and not some clumsy wizard-imitation.

Find the fighter a more flexible stick, but first, find him a tool that penetrates enchantments.

Myrmex
2009-04-29, 10:32 AM
Re: Dex to damage for ranged attacks

Dex to damage would simply mean you are better at shooting targets in vulnerable places, as opposed to just shooting them really hard. I've always liked the idea of playing a lethal archer, but I can never seem to get it to work, since there are so few places to get damage from.

monty
2009-04-29, 11:59 AM
And with the right optimization, a fighter's stick can be pretty big.

But wizards quickly figured out, size isn't all-important - it's what you can do with your stick that counts.

If my sig weren't already full, this would be going in there.