Saph
2009-04-28, 06:21 AM
Play-By-Post games tend to die. A lot. Sometimes the DM finds he doesn't have enough time to run the game, sometimes the players lose interest, sometimes it's a combination of both. Most often, though, the game just goes slower and slower until it finally sputters out. The slower the game goes, the harder it becomes for players to stay invested, and the less frequently they check the thread.
This is a method I've come up with designed to speed up combat in PbP games. It won't guarantee that the game will hold together, but I think it'll help keep the players interested - and at the very least it means you'll get more gaming in. :)
(Note: All the advice in this post assumes you're playing D&D 3.5 or 4e. However, it also applies to any other game that uses the same mechanics for initiative and combat turns.)
PbP Initiatives and Combat - Individual Method
This is the method I see most groups using, and for a simple reason; it's the same way you play D&D face to face. When combat starts:
1) All players roll initiative and give their results to the DM. DM rolls initiative for each group of monsters. Once all are rolled, determine initiative order.
2) Players and DM post actions in initiative order, highest to lowest.
3) Once everyone's had a turn, return to step 2) and repeat.
This method works great when everyone's sitting around a table. It doesn't work so well in PbP. At a table, if Bob's forgotten that it's his turn, the guy next to him can poke him and say "Hey, Bob, it's your turn." (This takes about 5 seconds.) In PbP, someone has to notice that Bob has forgotten to take his turn and send him a message, then Bob has to notice that he's been sent a message and act on it. (This can take anywhere from 1 to 3 days, or more if you're really unlucky.)
PbP Initiatives and Combat - Group Method
This is my revised approach. When combat starts:
1) Whoever's online rolls initiatives for everyone. Initiative is normally a 'no-choice' roll, so it doesn't matter who does it. The DM makes one roll for all the creatures under his control, taking the average of their initiative modifiers. (E.g. if he has 4 critters with +4 initiative and 2 critters with +1 initiative he makes one roll at +3.) Determine initiative order.
2) All the players who go before the DM take their turn, in whatever order.
3) The DM takes his turn.
4) All the players take their turn, in whatever order.
5) Return to step 3) and repeat.
What's the Difference?
The difference is that the group method is at least twice as fast.
You have to do some math to understand why, so here it is, spoilered.
Setup:
For our test group, we'll take a standard group of 6 people - Alice, Bob, Charlie, Dave, Erica, and Fred the Dungeon Master. Each reply at different speeds.
• Alice and Bob check the forums often, and on average reply in about 12 hours. I.e., when it's their turn, on average it'll take them 12 hours to notice, figure out their action, and post. Fred the DM also takes about 12 hours.
• Charlie and Dave are slower, and on average reply in about 24 hours.
• Erica is a slowcoach, and on average replies in about 48 hours, ie two days. (There's one in every group.)
You might think that this is faster or slower than your typical game; if it is, feel free to cut the numbers in half or double them.
Combat with Individual Initiatives:
The adventurers run across a pair of dreaded Forum Trolls. Combat ensues!
Fred the DM announces a combat and rolls initiative for the Forum Trolls. He gets a 4 and a 14. Time required: 0 days.
Alice, Bob, Charlie, Dave, and Erica roll and post initiatives personally. They get a 20, 10, 1, 18, and 8 respectively. Time required: 2 days.
Fred the DM sees that everyone's rolled initiative and posts initiative order as follows: Alice, Dave, Forum Troll 1, Bob, Erica, Forum Troll 2, Charlie. He tells Alice that it's her turn. Time required: 12 hours.
Alice takes her turn. Time required: 12 hours.
Dave takes his turn. Time required: 1 day.
Fred the DM takes his turn for Forum Troll No. 1. Time required: 12 hours.
Bob takes his turn. Time required: 12 hours.
Erica takes her turn. Time required: 2 days.
Fred the DM takes his turn for Forum Troll No. 2. Time required: 12 hours.
Charlie takes his turn. Time required: 1 day.
The PCs have now completed one combat round. Total time elapsed:
2 days + 12 hours + 12 hours + 1 day + 12 hours + 12 hours + 2 days + 12 hours + 1 day = 8 1/2 days.
Each further combat round will take about 6 days.
Why so slow? Because everyone has to wait for the person in front of them to take their turn before they can do anything. The total elapsed time for the PCs actions is the sum of all the player's reply times.
Combat with Group Initiatives:
The adventurers run across a pair of dreaded Forum Trolls. Combat ensues!
Fred the DM announces a combat and rolls initiative for the Forum Trolls. He gets a 9. He also rolls initiative for Alice, Bob, Charlie, Dave, and Erica, and gets a 20, 10, 1, 18, and 8 respectively. He posts an initiative order as follows: Alice, Dave, Bob, Forum Trolls, Erica, Charlie. He tells Alice that it's her turn. Time required: 0 hours.
Alice, Dave, and Bob take their turns as they come online, posting in whatever order, depending on who shows up first. Time required: 1 day.
Fred the DM takes his turn for both Forum Trolls. Time required: 12 hours.
Erica, Charlie, Alice, Dave, and Bob all take their turns in whatever order, depending on who shows up first. Time required: 2 days.
The PCs have now completed one-and-a-half combat rounds. Total time elapsed:
1 day + 12 hours + 2 days = 3 1/2 days.
Each further combat round will take about 2 1/2 days.
Why so much faster? Because each player is posting as they come online. They only need to wait for the DM. The total elapsed time for the PCs actions is the highest number among the reply times.
Short Version For The Non-Math-Inclined: The group method is much faster because you're only waiting for the slowest person, instead of the total wait times of every person.
Another benefit of this method is that once combat's underway, players don't have to remember the initiative order. They just have to remember if they've gone since the DM's last turn or not.
Possible Problems
The main issue with this method of tracking initiative is that it isn't strictly by the rules. By the group method, players who are online more and post faster will act ahead of players who react more slowly, even if they're techically supposed to have a lower Initiative.
I don't think this is a big issue because:
- The faster players don't actually get any more actions than anyone else; they just get to go first.
- Much of the time in D&D combat, assuming the players are acting as a team, it doesn't matter all that much in which order the players go in. Besides, players can always sort out action order among themselves.
- It speeds up combat by a factor of 2x or 3x. I'm willing to swallow a little inaccuracy for that.
This method also starts to fall apart once you introduce spells like Celerity and other stuff that monkeys around with the initiative order to give PCs multiple actions. However, the normal way of tracking initiative in PbP has almost as much trouble with this stuff too, as PbP deals poorly with abilities that trigger during another player's turn.
Lumping the monsters together into one group and the PCs together into one group also changes group tactics a little, causing the teams to act in unison instead of in a fixed order. However, while this does change the nature of combat slightly, it applies equally to both sides; it doesn't favour either the monsters or the PCs.
Finally, this method means that players don't get to roll their own initiatives. I don't think this is a big deal, but I guess it could be an issue if players really like making initiative rolls for some reason. More seriously, it does cause problems if PCs have special abilities that affect initiative and require player input (e.g. Nerveskitter). This can be dealt with by the player specifying actions in advance ("I'm going to cast Nerveskitter in every battle") or you can just suck it up and spend the extra time waiting for the player.
Conclusion
Doing initiatives in a group rather than individually in order is a much quicker way of running a PbP combat. You sacrifice a very small amount of accuracy, but in exchange your combats should go at least twice as fast. This means more game time, faster combats, and (IMO) more fun. :)
Comments, suggestions?
- Saph
This is a method I've come up with designed to speed up combat in PbP games. It won't guarantee that the game will hold together, but I think it'll help keep the players interested - and at the very least it means you'll get more gaming in. :)
(Note: All the advice in this post assumes you're playing D&D 3.5 or 4e. However, it also applies to any other game that uses the same mechanics for initiative and combat turns.)
PbP Initiatives and Combat - Individual Method
This is the method I see most groups using, and for a simple reason; it's the same way you play D&D face to face. When combat starts:
1) All players roll initiative and give their results to the DM. DM rolls initiative for each group of monsters. Once all are rolled, determine initiative order.
2) Players and DM post actions in initiative order, highest to lowest.
3) Once everyone's had a turn, return to step 2) and repeat.
This method works great when everyone's sitting around a table. It doesn't work so well in PbP. At a table, if Bob's forgotten that it's his turn, the guy next to him can poke him and say "Hey, Bob, it's your turn." (This takes about 5 seconds.) In PbP, someone has to notice that Bob has forgotten to take his turn and send him a message, then Bob has to notice that he's been sent a message and act on it. (This can take anywhere from 1 to 3 days, or more if you're really unlucky.)
PbP Initiatives and Combat - Group Method
This is my revised approach. When combat starts:
1) Whoever's online rolls initiatives for everyone. Initiative is normally a 'no-choice' roll, so it doesn't matter who does it. The DM makes one roll for all the creatures under his control, taking the average of their initiative modifiers. (E.g. if he has 4 critters with +4 initiative and 2 critters with +1 initiative he makes one roll at +3.) Determine initiative order.
2) All the players who go before the DM take their turn, in whatever order.
3) The DM takes his turn.
4) All the players take their turn, in whatever order.
5) Return to step 3) and repeat.
What's the Difference?
The difference is that the group method is at least twice as fast.
You have to do some math to understand why, so here it is, spoilered.
Setup:
For our test group, we'll take a standard group of 6 people - Alice, Bob, Charlie, Dave, Erica, and Fred the Dungeon Master. Each reply at different speeds.
• Alice and Bob check the forums often, and on average reply in about 12 hours. I.e., when it's their turn, on average it'll take them 12 hours to notice, figure out their action, and post. Fred the DM also takes about 12 hours.
• Charlie and Dave are slower, and on average reply in about 24 hours.
• Erica is a slowcoach, and on average replies in about 48 hours, ie two days. (There's one in every group.)
You might think that this is faster or slower than your typical game; if it is, feel free to cut the numbers in half or double them.
Combat with Individual Initiatives:
The adventurers run across a pair of dreaded Forum Trolls. Combat ensues!
Fred the DM announces a combat and rolls initiative for the Forum Trolls. He gets a 4 and a 14. Time required: 0 days.
Alice, Bob, Charlie, Dave, and Erica roll and post initiatives personally. They get a 20, 10, 1, 18, and 8 respectively. Time required: 2 days.
Fred the DM sees that everyone's rolled initiative and posts initiative order as follows: Alice, Dave, Forum Troll 1, Bob, Erica, Forum Troll 2, Charlie. He tells Alice that it's her turn. Time required: 12 hours.
Alice takes her turn. Time required: 12 hours.
Dave takes his turn. Time required: 1 day.
Fred the DM takes his turn for Forum Troll No. 1. Time required: 12 hours.
Bob takes his turn. Time required: 12 hours.
Erica takes her turn. Time required: 2 days.
Fred the DM takes his turn for Forum Troll No. 2. Time required: 12 hours.
Charlie takes his turn. Time required: 1 day.
The PCs have now completed one combat round. Total time elapsed:
2 days + 12 hours + 12 hours + 1 day + 12 hours + 12 hours + 2 days + 12 hours + 1 day = 8 1/2 days.
Each further combat round will take about 6 days.
Why so slow? Because everyone has to wait for the person in front of them to take their turn before they can do anything. The total elapsed time for the PCs actions is the sum of all the player's reply times.
Combat with Group Initiatives:
The adventurers run across a pair of dreaded Forum Trolls. Combat ensues!
Fred the DM announces a combat and rolls initiative for the Forum Trolls. He gets a 9. He also rolls initiative for Alice, Bob, Charlie, Dave, and Erica, and gets a 20, 10, 1, 18, and 8 respectively. He posts an initiative order as follows: Alice, Dave, Bob, Forum Trolls, Erica, Charlie. He tells Alice that it's her turn. Time required: 0 hours.
Alice, Dave, and Bob take their turns as they come online, posting in whatever order, depending on who shows up first. Time required: 1 day.
Fred the DM takes his turn for both Forum Trolls. Time required: 12 hours.
Erica, Charlie, Alice, Dave, and Bob all take their turns in whatever order, depending on who shows up first. Time required: 2 days.
The PCs have now completed one-and-a-half combat rounds. Total time elapsed:
1 day + 12 hours + 2 days = 3 1/2 days.
Each further combat round will take about 2 1/2 days.
Why so much faster? Because each player is posting as they come online. They only need to wait for the DM. The total elapsed time for the PCs actions is the highest number among the reply times.
Short Version For The Non-Math-Inclined: The group method is much faster because you're only waiting for the slowest person, instead of the total wait times of every person.
Another benefit of this method is that once combat's underway, players don't have to remember the initiative order. They just have to remember if they've gone since the DM's last turn or not.
Possible Problems
The main issue with this method of tracking initiative is that it isn't strictly by the rules. By the group method, players who are online more and post faster will act ahead of players who react more slowly, even if they're techically supposed to have a lower Initiative.
I don't think this is a big issue because:
- The faster players don't actually get any more actions than anyone else; they just get to go first.
- Much of the time in D&D combat, assuming the players are acting as a team, it doesn't matter all that much in which order the players go in. Besides, players can always sort out action order among themselves.
- It speeds up combat by a factor of 2x or 3x. I'm willing to swallow a little inaccuracy for that.
This method also starts to fall apart once you introduce spells like Celerity and other stuff that monkeys around with the initiative order to give PCs multiple actions. However, the normal way of tracking initiative in PbP has almost as much trouble with this stuff too, as PbP deals poorly with abilities that trigger during another player's turn.
Lumping the monsters together into one group and the PCs together into one group also changes group tactics a little, causing the teams to act in unison instead of in a fixed order. However, while this does change the nature of combat slightly, it applies equally to both sides; it doesn't favour either the monsters or the PCs.
Finally, this method means that players don't get to roll their own initiatives. I don't think this is a big deal, but I guess it could be an issue if players really like making initiative rolls for some reason. More seriously, it does cause problems if PCs have special abilities that affect initiative and require player input (e.g. Nerveskitter). This can be dealt with by the player specifying actions in advance ("I'm going to cast Nerveskitter in every battle") or you can just suck it up and spend the extra time waiting for the player.
Conclusion
Doing initiatives in a group rather than individually in order is a much quicker way of running a PbP combat. You sacrifice a very small amount of accuracy, but in exchange your combats should go at least twice as fast. This means more game time, faster combats, and (IMO) more fun. :)
Comments, suggestions?
- Saph