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Kosjsjach
2009-04-28, 02:34 PM
...or Death to the Ubiquitous Gold Piece!

Hey, all. I've been around here for awhile, but this is my first post; I'd like your opinions on something.
Did it ever bug you that a 1st-level potion costs 50 gold coins? That's what started me on all this. I wanted gold to be worth something. I wanted silver to matter.
I figured I couldn't be the only one, so I ran around the internet looking for ideas. I came across this post (http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showpost.php?p=920638&postcount=17) on a Warhammer forum, and it's why I first started thinking about alternatives. Much later (after I'd already finished what I'm going to show you), I found this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=108872) on this forum, which largely discusses this topic.

I'm blathering. Sorry. Here's what I have.

+Fantasy Currencies

++Dwarven
As proud miners and metallurgists, dwarves take great care in ensuring the purity of their precious metals. This has led to dwarven bullion coins and ingots – namely copper, silver and gold – being the most widely accepted medium of exchange throughout the world.
One gold ingot is worth twenty-five silver ingots, which is in turn worth five-hundred copper ingots. A coin is one-fifth the mass and value of the ingot of the same metal.
Many human societies use dwarven currency, making dwarves important figures in human economies.
(I worked it out so classic gp values are easily converted into dwarven coinage:
Copper coin = 1cp, Copper ingot = 5cp, Silver coin = 2sp; Silver ingot = 1gp, Gold coin = 5gp; Gold ingot = 25gp, Platinum ingot = 200gp.
If each ingot is 1/10th of a pound, then copper stays at its classic value, silver is worth twice as much, gold is worth 5 times as much, and platinum quadruples in worth. While this isn't as dramatic an increase as I was originally working for, it means a 1st-level potion costs 2 gold ingots rather than 50 gold coins. That works for me.)

++Elven
Elves habitually revel in emulating nature, and their preferred medium of exchange is no exception. Finely-embossed metal sheets in the shapes of leaves of various sizes circulate, and the type of metal and the intricacy of the design indicate value.
The default leaves consist of three bronze (one long pointed, one three-lobed, one multi-lobed), two electrum (one heart-shaped, one five-pointed), and one mithral (oblong and irregular). For values less than the lowest-denomination leaf, small amber beads are used.
Generally, elves will still accept dwarven currency, but they prefer their own for internal transactions.
(I have no idea where the elves get the metals for their leaves. They would need copper and tin for bronze, silver and gold for electrum, and of course mithral. As was suggested by Mr.Bookworm in this post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5972562&postcount=15) in the thread I linked to above, it could all be made of amber. Perhaps some natural dyes could be used as well to produce multiple hues. I'm not as attached to this idea as I am to some of the others, but I still find the idea of elves trading lumps of metal back and forth odd.)

++Orcish
Savagery and brutality define orcish society as a whole, so currency does not play as significant a role as in most other cultures. However, when a medium of exchange is required, it is common practice to use teeth. An orc's incisor represents the base value, with molars (usually) equating to two incisors and tusks worth five. As a general rule, teeth of other humanoid races are worth half as much as the equivalent orc tooth.
Teeth and fangs from monsters or animals are just as exchangeable, and the indeterminacy of the value of a particular creature's tooth is compensated by the necessary role of intimidation in orcish exchanges. More than half of the transaction is convincing the other party of the value of what you are trying to trade for.
To mediate transactions involving non-standard teeth, orcish communities have an appraiser who determines their relative value. Unfortunately, the dependability of the apparisers is debatable.
(This is one of my favorite ideas because it has several flavorful ramifications. Not only does it mean an orc will often try to collect a debt from you by punching your face in, but it makes them predisposed to hunting tusked creatures (e.g. elephants, mammoths) to extinction.)

++Hobgoblin
Similar to the dwarves, hobgoblins use metallic coins, but they are prone to dilution and debasement. In addition to heavily alloyed gold, silver and copper coins, tin coins are circulated, but have very low values.
Hobgoblins operate in a feudal society, with many lordships governed loosely by a central authority. Only one coin, the hobgoblin gold piece, is produced by the central authority and accepted as legal tender throughout the hobgoblin territories. Each lordship is responsible for producing and distributing its own smaller-denomination coins.
Debased and over-valued, trading with hobgoblin coins outside of their territory will at most work out to one dwarven silver ingot per hobgoblin gold piece.
(I've basically relegated the "old" system of cp, sp, and gp here.)

++Drow
As the most widespread and influential of the civilized humanoid races of the underdark, the dark elves have mandated that all transactions within their range of influence use only luminescent crystals grown and regulated by them.
These luminescent crystals feed and grow from the ambient magical energy permeating the underdark, and are grown only under the strict jurisdiction of the drow houses. Each drow ruling house grows its own hue of crystal, and the current politics of the houses determines a crystal's value in relation to that of other houses.
The other races that conduct business in the underdark tolerate this, particularly because all major transactions are by default moderated by the dark elves, and they keep both sides (relatively) fair.
(Call me crazy, but the idea of trading a handful of glowing crystals of varying sizes and colors for an obscure object in a subterranean marketplace... does something for me.)

And that's all I got. I know it's a potential bookkeeping nightmare, so I tried to put emphasis on dwarven currency as almost globally-accepted. Adventurers would still deal primarily with copper, silver and gold, but if you plan on bargaining with some orcs, or want to make a good impression on some reclusive elves, some alternatives couldn't hurt. :smallsmile:

Let me know what you think!

Tsotha-lanti
2009-04-28, 03:03 PM
Dwarven

Why change the money values for the dwarven currency? Since this is presumably a metal-based monetary system, where metals are assumed to have a value-by-weight, why not just keep it? Historically, coins were valued by their weight and metal, not by any value stamped on them; coins were just a way of carrying the metal in a smaller form (and a way of commemorating leaders, etc.).

I suggest just going back to the basic values, and acknowledging that ingots of each metal are worth varying amounts of coins based on their weight. (Each pound is worth, what, a hundred coins of the same metal? I forget the "coins in a pound" ratio for D&D just now.)

Elven

Certainly elves aren't a people without metal? It hardly takes mine shafts to get basic metals (although you'll run out of available ore pretty soon if you don't make your own shafts). Aside from that, they obviously get metals by trading for them. Similarly to the dwarves, their leaf-shaped coins should, realistically (versimilitude; same thing), be valued based on weight. Thinner but larger in area, they'd probably weigh about the same as coins.

Orcs

The first fiat currency, and it's orcs? This makes no sense - unless they have very strong economy and a central government that can guarantee tax income, there's nothing to back up a fiat currency. Their teeth have no value - why would an orc accept them when they only have value as items of trade within the orc community, and can't be used with outsiders? You'd think instead of trying to agree on a fiat currency, they'd use the metal coins taken or received from outsiders, which can be traded back to those same outsiders for things orcs can't produce or raid for.

I suppose teeth might have innate value in the making of jewelry - in fact, if orcs are primitive enough to have no metalworking to speak of, they might value teeth and bones over metals (except iron, obviously), which could actually lead to the bone/tooth-equivalent of a metal-based economy. That way, this could make sense, but they'd still be screwed trying to trade with outsiders - and unless their communities are very big and somewhat organized, the teeth wouldn't have a fixed value, and they'd essentially be bartering.

I'd suggest just going with a barter economy for orcs.

Hobgoblins

Looks like the realistic development from metal value-by-weight to fiat currency (which even "gold-backed" currencies are, really). It actually makes sense to me that most coins will only be accepted in the region where they're stamped; but for these to be even remotely useful, each lord's territory must include multiple towns or cities. Feudal peasants in rural areas had little use for coins, being far from the towns, and would rather just barter.

Again, if the central government's coins are debased, they'd need taxation to support an essentially fiat currency.

Drow

Fiat currency again. I don't think it would work - who's going to accept a currency backed by the stability and ability to tax people of a drow government? Talk about a credit risk! Especially as the value of a "coin" would vary with the fortunes of a single house, which are liable to go from "excellent" to "they're all dead" in a single night - even the drow wouldn't accept the crystals of other houses!

Kosjsjach
2009-04-28, 03:48 PM
So all my ideas are terrible. That's... humbling.:smalleek:

I don't quite understand what your issue with my dwarven system is. Classically, there are 50 coins per pound. The way I've structured it, each ingot has the weight and value of 5 coins (I used to just call them "fifths"). Silver and gold end up worth more than they classically do, but that's what I set out to do in the first place.

You're right that it doesn't make sense that elves would be without metal, but I was trying to play-up elven self-sufficiency. I also didn't intend for elven leaves to be value-by-weight, but to also be dependent on the level of artisanry. They're not meant to be something one would be likely to find abroad, but that elves would exchange amongst each other.

It's a shame you didn't like the orc teeth idea. I know you know this, but "fiat" means "declared by a government to be legal tender"; orcs don't have a supreme governing body (at least in my imagining). Of course orcs primarily use barter. The way I imagined it, orcs regard teeth as trophies, so the larger/sharper/more ferocious-looking the tooth, the higher prestige. It makes sense to me that they'd trade them amongst each other, and that would evolve into a crude medium of exchange.

Doesn't sound like you had any real problem with the Hobgoblin coins. I have no qualms with taxation.

Drow currency: credit risk? Well yeah! It also gives the drow one more way to screw each other over, which fits just fine with what I've read about them. But you're right, the drow wouldn't trade these crystals amongst the houses. They'd trade the goods they forced other races to exchange for their crystals! :smallamused:

I know I'm being very defensive. I'm sorry; I was eager to hear some feedback and the first reply is all negative.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-04-28, 04:03 PM
Primarily, it just increases bookkeeping without increasing fun, IMHO. Now instead of writing down 14,513 GP on a char sheet(which includes GP, trade goods, art objects, gems, and spices), and changing it several times a night, now I'm keeping track of all of those seperately, as well as figuring out how many elven leaves, orcish fangs, and Drow crystals I have(in all of their denominations), and all it adds in terms of gameplay is that now I carry a pair of pliers for when we kill things(since dragon teeth are phat lewtz) and now I say 'I visit a money changer' any time I enter a new town.

That said, I see the Dwarves tradin the same coins as humans, Elven coins being similar but definitely more fancy(same value, but pretty), and orcish coins being chunks of usable metal instead of 'allz tose squishy hunks'. Probably iron. Hobbos probably use both human and Orc(depending on the current exchange rate). Drow...I don't see trading anything worthless. Figure a system based off glowing crystals, each of which is invested with the 'soul of a slave'(XP from a level-drained victim). Now you've got a reason for the drow to constantly raid everything, try to capture each other(since they're higher level than most slaves, they're worth more, though none of the Drow admit to using others instead of slaves), a reason why they have such good magic items, and now they've got something really scary for players. But they're not going to use the money of a lesser race, and definitely not going to take it on faith that anyone will still redeem something a day later.

Jolly Steve
2009-04-28, 04:10 PM
In my game (http://www.ageoffable.net) the main currency is cowrie shells.

You could also use spices.

chiasaur11
2009-04-28, 04:38 PM
I recommend a Golem Standard.

It's the only sensible solution.

Tsotha-lanti
2009-04-28, 04:46 PM
I don't see how positive feedback would help you anyway. You're going to do what you want anyway; getting different opinions on your ideas can let you see a different side, and change your mind if you see a reason to. If you take criticism or critique of your ideas personally, you'll have a hard time actually developing anything useful (and you'll contribute to a culture of flattering dishonesty and simpering evasion that makes people named Paolini think they are real writers).

If you want to change the basic value of metals, that's obviously no problem (although I advice against it; in all the D&D settings where a basic metal coin isn't worth 10 of the previous one and 1/10th the next one, everyone at my table, including me, always forgets the value). Regardless of metal values, tiny 1/10th-pound ingots seem a bit odd; ingots are metal ready to be smelted and worked into a shape, so you need a fair amount.

I acknowledged that teeth can work for orcs, because they could function the same as "precious" metals originally did - the only real uses of silver and gold were as jewelry, too. They'd be worthless for trade outside of orc communities, but I suppose most orcs wouldn't practice "international" trade.

The drow fiat currency just wouldn't make any sense. Nobody else would accept it, so it would be worthless. The value of any currency is based on what you can get for it, so it has to be desirable to others (because it's considered innately valuable, or because it's backed by a very strong economy and taxation). If the crystals had innate value - perhaps they can be used to power magic or create magic items (the crystals can be used to create magic items, for instance, gp-per-gp, and magic-users on the surface have to acquire them) - they'd work as currency. If you go with the "classic" Faerūnian Underdark (pretty much used as the standard in Drow of the Underdark), drow live in areas of magical radiatian (faerzess) - this could infuse crystals and other types of rock.

Edit:

I recommend a Golem Standard.

It's the only sensible solution.

Lipwig for prime minister!

ondonaflash
2009-04-28, 04:49 PM
I think a simpler method would be to use the standard D&D coinage with fancy names for each denomination, and then, when it comes to other currencies treat them as trade goods, that is, a direct value in standard currencies. Trade goods can act as currencies and also be resold in the home society, usually for a higher price than is their value amongst the cultures which use them. for greater depth have the values fluctuate. One day orc teeth are a commodity, worth 10 gold apiece, then a week later demand has died down and you can only trade them for silver. There is always a demand for drow crystals since they are glowing and incredibly rare, one could fetch several platinum for a crystal that is worth gold in the underdark.

Weirdlet
2009-04-28, 04:58 PM
Book-keeping nothing, I'll glom onto these just for flavor. I like'em, especially the orcs.

Oracle_Hunter
2009-04-28, 05:48 PM
Now, I have no problem with most of your currencies (flavor despite extra bookkeeping is good) but your Orc one fails as a currency.
All currency must either
(a) Be intrinsically valuable or
(b) Be backed by something of value

The more sophisticated currencies tend to fall under (b), but in the medieval world where states are not the best guarantors of value most currency falls under (a) - hence, gold coins.

The orc currency is in orc teeth. As orc teeth are not particularly rare in an orc society and are orc teeth particularly valuable themselves, they make little sense as a currency. Now, if you decide that orcs really value their own teeth for some reason, then they are unlikely to bother collecting other valuable goods like gold or gems - they are rarer and more useful in external trade and yet orcs do not see them to be as valuable as plentiful teeth.

In addition, orcs are unlikely to believe that "orc dollars" will be redeemable from the issuer for anything of value - orc societies are not known for their lawfulness nor their stability.
That said, it is great to see you trying to fiddle with the default sociopolitical assumptions of D&D. Good luck!

Yuki Akuma
2009-04-28, 06:24 PM
Say that orc tooth enamel is useful in the creation of art objects - like, oh, I don't know, ivory? Alternatively, give them useful magical or alchemical properties.

Et voila, orc teeth have intrinsic value.

Fhaolan
2009-04-28, 06:26 PM
To my mind there are three types of currencies: Representative, Intrinsic, and Fiat.

Intrinsic currency is the one that D&D uses as a base, where the coin (or jewel, or whatever) itself has value due to the preciousness of the material it is made of, or the craftsmanship of it's making. Hack jewelry is a very common form of this, where necklaces, bracelets and whatever have bits that are to be broken off and used as currency by weight. With the other form, being a proper coin, the stamp of the coin means that the coin has been weighted and measured by an authority that has certified that the coin is worth x amount by weight and purity.

The second type is Representative meaning that each unit of currency is backed up by the representated commodity, usually in a storehouse of a reasonably central authority. A specific coin represent a specific weight of grain or something similar that is being held in trust by a bank, merchant, etc. Basically it's an IOU. The authority gives you a marker (IOU, coin, etc.) that means that you can redeem it for it's 'value' at some later date. Due to this, coins of this type were stamped with whatever commodity they represented. A copper coin that represented a bushel of grain was stamped with such, etc. In fact some early markers were made to be minatures of the commodity. Little copper cow hides and the like. The material the marker was made of was irrelevant, as the value was in what it represented, not in what it was made of. This kind of currency rarely has value other than within a reasonable travel distance of that authority. As such it tends to be 'internal only' and not used for international trade.

The final type being Fiat currency, which is much like Representative, but the currency does not represtent any particular physical item, but is backed by a central authority as being worth 'something'. It is usually expressed as a portion of the value of that central authority itself. If a kingdom has x amount of fiat currency in circulation, that means that kingdom itself is declaring it's willingness to exchange that currency with x amount of it's own assets.

Given time, currency tends to move around a lot, changing types. For example, the Shekel is an interesting one. It appears that the 'shekel' was a bushel of grain. The coin represented that bushel, and was called a 'shekel' as well. The shekel coin became reasonably standardized at 180 grains in weight itself, and then the measurment unit 'shekel' changed from being a bushel of grain to being 180 grains of weight. The coin could be silver or gold, as long as it weighed 180 grains. And it kept evolving from there.

One of the things to remember is that because adventurers are looting tombs and ruins and the like is that currency is rarely stable over the time-frames they are dealing with. Just because they found 100 gold coins in a jar in the lich's pantry doesn't mean it's 100gp. They likely are old enough that they 'represent' something that's long gone, or were measured by an authority that no longer exists. Their value might be anything.

Oracle_Hunter
2009-04-28, 06:42 PM
Say that orc tooth enamel is useful in the creation of art objects - like, oh, I don't know, ivory? Alternatively, give them useful magical or alchemical properties.

Et voila, orc teeth have intrinsic value.

Sure, but orc teeth are tremendously common in a society as violent and fertile as the orcs. Now, I would support having non-orc teeth being a medium of exchange - they're rarer and show battle prowess, which makes them far more reasonable.

That said, they're not going to be a currency - teeth are too irregular to have fixed values, like gold or silver. It'd be a bartering system, perhaps with orc teeth taking the place of "small change" that can be used for buying common goods. Personally, I'd have human teeth be the "small change" - there are lot more humans than most other demihuman races, and they tend to be more violent than the others to boot. Incisors would be the largest unit (pointy = awesome), then molars then any other tooth - it'd be an informal currency more than a formal one.

Tsotha-lanti
2009-04-28, 06:42 PM
Say that orc tooth enamel is useful in the creation of art objects - like, oh, I don't know, ivory? Alternatively, give them useful magical or alchemical properties.

Et voila, orc teeth have intrinsic value.

The problem, of course, is that you can then "farm" orcs for money. If orc teeth are valuable to others, killing orcs is just too profitable for PCs not to abuse.


As a side-note, there's two big/traditional forgery problems that crop up with currency:

With representative currency, you get coin-clipping. Even representative coins were usually made of a precious metal (since your average forger is unlikely to have access to much of that). By shaving off metal from the edges of many coins, forgers could get enough to make up bullion (ingots) or more coins. This required, of course, possession of dies to use in casting/stamping coins, and possession of the tools was probably punished severely. There are ways to combat this in stamping coins (by shaping the edges of a coin), but those require some fine metalworking and probably aren't feasible with medieval-style mints. Obviously shaved coins weigh less and are therefore worth less if they're intrinsic currency, so this is best done with representative or fiat currency. (Then again, gold and silver coins lose mass - and value - over time, too.)

And then there's debasing the coins. Again, you need the dies. You take coins or coin-clippings, melt them down, debase them with another, more common metal, and stamp new coins with this. Obviously you have to be careful to get the weight right so as to not raise suspicion from experienced merchants and the like, but it could be done. Depending on the mixing ratios, you can add a substantial percentage to the amount of currency you start with.

Note that if a currency has no intrinsic value, it needs to be hard to replicate. Thus, teeth as representative currency, for instance, wouldn't work - anyone can get some teeth! They'd only work if they're considered worth something - but because they're so easy to get, they can't be worth a whole lot. (If it's more barter than anything, then you need impressive and big and intact teeth, which will be harder to get - and they're really trade goods anyway.) Intricate metalworking is a possibility - elves and dwarves could probably manage coinage that would be very hard to imitate, and the required equipment would be relatively easy to keep track of or notice.

Godskook
2009-04-28, 07:01 PM
Frankly, I like the idea of orcs trading in teeth, it gives them a native American flavor that I approve of, aiding in the efforts to neutralize their alignment. If you decide to pursue it further, look up info on native Americans and how they valued bear claws and eagle feathers. This'll give you an idea of how to value the orc currency as well as give you ideas on how to bring religious reverence to the process, preventing some of the abuse.

(Heck, you could build a story just around that. Orc tribes are ravaging outskirt human villages and the PCs are sent to stop it. Good PCs would have a talk with the orcs, discovering that the raids are the result of human poachers slaughtering sacred creatures for their valued bits without performing the sacred rituals required by orcish law. Horrible because the poachers are only doing it to exploit orc currency.)

RS14
2009-04-28, 07:47 PM
I think that orc teeth are reasonable, with some caveats. They shouldn't be a currency, really, so much as a token of power. They're basically a measure of your ability to kill or maim other orcs. Someone with a fistfull of teeth is someone not to be trifled with. At the same time, orcs aren't going to roll over and do as you say because you've got a few teeth---if you look like a wimp, they'll laugh at you when you try to intimidate them into listening to you.

Mechanically, then, they should provide a bonus on intimidate checks to negotiate trade or alliances. They wouldn't be exchanged, except with vassals, who would keep the teeth until they ceased to be under your protection, at which point they would return them.

Many of them would be burned or engraved in a manner to indicate who's power they represent, possibly many times, and more heavily engraved teeth would likely be respected more.

Also, I love what Crissa, over at The Gaming Den, had to say about such currency: "It's like a fiat currency, except the fiat is your fist." :smallbiggrin:

[hr]

I like the elven metal leaves, but don't think they should be valued based on the quality of the work. I would treat them basically as paper money---you can't value them by weight, as they will grow unreasonably large. Thus it needs to be representative currency, and will therefore loose value outside of the region in which it was printed. That's fine; make your elves xenophobic and reclusive as a justification.

Berserk Monk
2009-04-28, 07:51 PM
Just make sure not to include any gil.

Dixieboy
2009-04-28, 11:09 PM
Orcs, using teeth?

You have been looking at warhammer :3

Your theories for why Orc teef won't work as a currency fall flat on it's ass when you realize that the one using them are ORCS.

They don't trade with others, they kill them and steal their stuff.

Also gruumsh could've just one day said to a shaman. "Use teeth for currency" and it was so.

Really, the idea is good, let's not bring too much realism into this.

Mewtarthio
2009-04-28, 11:43 PM
I recommend a Golem Standard.

It's the only sensible solution.

:smallbiggrin: It'd certainly prevent a run on the banks:

"What's that, sir? You'd like to close your account? Very well, here's your money, or rather its equivalent in angry, rampaging golems!"

Oracle_Hunter
2009-04-28, 11:47 PM
Your theories for why Orc teef won't work as a currency fall flat on it's ass when you realize that the one using them are ORCS.

They don't trade with others, they kill them and steal their stuff.
*ahem* if they don't trade with others, what makes you think they'll trade with themselves? :smallamused:

Also: Teef work in Gorkamorka because Orks are crazy. D&D Orcs are sightly more sane.

Ravens_cry
2009-04-28, 11:51 PM
The Golem Standard seems to be based on the idea of potential labor, the money backed by the labor golems could potentially do.

Oracle_Hunter
2009-04-29, 12:15 AM
The Golem Standard seems to be based on the idea of potential labor, the money backed by the labor golems could potentially do.
I dunno, a Golem-backed currency seems a bit unstable to me. I mean, don't they have a percentage chance to go crazy?

Tsotha-lanti
2009-04-29, 01:52 AM
I dunno, a Golem-backed currency seems a bit unstable to me. I mean, don't they have a percentage chance to go crazy?

It's a reference to Making Money, the Discworld book. So far, only one Discworld golem has gone crazy, and he had too many "parents'" wishes in his head (literally).

And like Ravens cry said, it's essentially based on the labor they could do. (They absolutely must not actually do this labor because that would put everyone out of a job and ruin the economy.) Really, though, Making Money is all about moving from a gold standard to a fiat currency.

Ravens_cry
2009-04-29, 02:10 AM
Back on the idea of alternative currencies, unless currency was a major focus of the game, such as say, a game where being a merchant was the focus, I say go more for flavor then differing mechanics.Name the coins different, have them SHAPED different if you want (elven 'leaves' sounds awful flavorsome) have coins in neighboring countries not be accepted or sometimes outright refused, especially in time of war, maybe even have things priced different. "I am sorry but a gold derkims will only get you a pint of milk here. It is SO hard to cart everything up the steep slopes." But don't make things too complicated, unless your players actually want that.

Shpadoinkle
2009-04-29, 02:28 AM
I guess you could go with this, but I wouldn't be surprised if your players were constantly saying "Okay, how much is that in 'standard' currency again?" or "Just tell me how much to mark off."

It's fine for flavor, but futzing around with the money system is just going to make things more complicated and annoying for no reason. If you want to say that dwarven currency is mostly coins and ingots, elven currency is shaped like leaves, orc currency is shaped like teeth, etc., that's great. It's flavorful without being a pain in the ass. But what you've drawn up with this is just... it would get annoying fast, and wind up with the players saying, sooner or later "PLEASE just tell me how much damn money I have!" or just converting to some kind of universal currency like gems.

Dixieboy
2009-04-29, 02:40 AM
*ahem* if they don't trade with others, what makes you think they'll trade with themselves? :smallamused:

Also: Teef work in Gorkamorka because Orks are crazy. D&D Orcs are sightly more sane.
Cheapshot

but i can be cheap too,
Gruumsh told them to :smallredface:

Being slightly more sane than a Warhammer (and 40k) ork still makes you a lunatic.

Oracle_Hunter
2009-04-29, 02:45 AM
I will say that the players will probably not appreciate having a diverse currency system but that doesn't mean you shouldn't try.

To make this more player friendly, I'd suggest getting rid of all the equivalent coin systems - that's just confusing. Instead, have the various currencies look different

EX: Dwarven Beads
Dwarves are the most advanced metallurgists in the world, and they love nothing more than pure metal. As such, the Dwarven Lords issue currency in small balls of absolutely pure precious metals - gold, silver, copper and platinum. Due to their purity, the smiths of other races will gladly purchase 1 bead for 5 of the local coin; likewise Dwarves who have little foreign custom show disdain for foreign coins and often will not accept them at all.
It's flavorful and it will stick in your players' mind better than "Dwarven Coin." Plus, after finding a small sack of Gold Beads and trading it in for five times as much coin, they will appreciate the difference.

For more "barbaric" races, I like your choice of natural goods (like teeth), but I think you might do better than orc teeth. As I said earlier, having to win teeth from dangerous opponents makes them more valuable - and some teeth have additional intrinsic value.
- Large fangs can be made into bone daggers or spearheads.
- Dragon teeth redoubtably have mystical properties
- Demon teeth would be prized beyond all else.

Still, departing from intrinsically valuable currencies with "monster" races will result in massive PC disappointment - they just won't value things like gems or gold as much, and so they won't bother carrying it around to be looted.

Saph
2009-04-29, 03:07 AM
Well, I'll weigh in on the side of the OP. I like the ideas, especially the Orc and Drow ones. They're flavourful and fun. :)

I see it as something to add flavour, rather than extra bookkeeping. You don't use them for typical treasure value - PCs don't need to keep track of multiple currencies. What they're used for is if you need to buy something exotic from a hostile society.

Basically, conducting a major purchase in these currencies would be an adventure in itself. If you want to buy the Wand of Darkness from the drow merchant prince, you have to first scrounge/borrow/steal enough crystals from somewhere, then make the trip into the Underdark to the drow city, then survive the bargaining process. It could make for quite a fun session.

- Saph

grautry
2009-04-29, 04:20 AM
I'll pitch in on the 'nice idea for flavour, bad for crunch' side.

The descriptions are pretty cool and if you work some kinks out(like the intrinsic value issue) it could very much work. But if players are actually required to keep track of each currency then it's like tracking components in spellcasting pouches - you'll sacrifice fun for flavour, which is usually a bad idea.

So if you include your new currencies and you want to keep some flavour then simply note down total gp's that the players have and how much of it is expressed in each currency.

For example, player A has 100,000 gp's in currency. He notes down:
- 20k in Dwarven bullion.
- 30k in Elven leafs.
- 5k in Orc teeth.
- 15k in Drow Crystals
- 30k in Hobgoblin coins.

Now, if a shop only accepts Dwarven bullion then he can spend 20,000gp there. Player's aren't sagged with too much bookkeeping and you get some additional flavour out of this.

Ovaltine Patrol
2009-04-29, 04:34 AM
The epic level handbook had something about notes of spell casting credit. It was intended as high level alternate currency based on divine spells, but the lower level denominations are likely within reach by mid-levels, and there's no reason a mage's guild wouldn't do something similar.

In DC comics there was an "Antimatter Universe," with an "Antimatter Earth," that was dominated by evil versions of superheroes like Superman and Batman. Because the evil Superman regularly devalued the currency for laughs, the only reliable means of exchange was a "Promise Bank," enforced by the Evil Batman. It's pretty similar to Beyond Thunderdome's Bartertown slogan "Break a deal, face the wheel," except instead of the wheel you face Batman.

Tsotha-lanti
2009-04-29, 05:12 AM
The epic level handbook had something about notes of spell casting credit. It was intended as high level alternate currency based on divine spells, but the lower level denominations are likely within reach by mid-levels, and there's no reason a mage's guild wouldn't do something similar.

Holy crap, that makes a ton of sense. A currency backed by an alliance of temples, or even just the temples of a prominent deity of wealth or trade, by their ability to wield divine power makes a ton of sense. The same would work for a powerful alliance of arcane casters, too - in fact, large wizards' guilds and various temples could all issue their own spellcasting-based currency.

Initially, they'd be limited by how much spellcasting they can promise to do, but eventually the currency would have importance as a facilitator of trade first, as a spellcasting credit a distant second. Groups putting too much on the market would be devaluing their currency, just like modern governments.

And there's really no size limit for the units; sure, the lowest price for a spell cast is 5 gold pieces for a 0-level spell cast at CL 1, but you can break that down into one-fifths (1 gp), one-fiftieths (1 sp), and one-five-hundreths (1 cp). Meanwhile, you can go way past 1,800 gp (9th-level spell, CL 20).

It would definitely work in Faerūn, for instance (where trading companies already issue "notes" that are redeemable as trade goods from them; this redeeming is probably used quite a bit).

hewhosaysfish
2009-04-29, 08:29 AM
Holy crap, that makes a ton of sense. A currency backed by an alliance of temples, or even just the temples of a prominent deity of wealth or trade, by their ability to wield divine power makes a ton of sense. The same would work for a powerful alliance of arcane casters, too - in fact, large wizards' guilds and various temples could all issue their own spellcasting-based currency.

Initially, they'd be limited by how much spellcasting they can promise to do, but eventually the currency would have importance as a facilitator of trade first, as a spellcasting credit a distant second. Groups putting too much on the market would be devaluing their currency, just like modern governments.

And there's really no size limit for the units; sure, the lowest price for a spell cast is 5 gold pieces for a 0-level spell cast at CL 1, but you can break that down into one-fifths (1 gp), one-fiftieths (1 sp), and one-five-hundreths (1 cp). Meanwhile, you can go way past 1,800 gp (9th-level spell, CL 20).

It would definitely work in Faerūn, for instance (where trading companies already issue "notes" that are redeemable as trade goods from them; this redeeming is probably used quite a bit).

If you're integrating this with an existing setting then you don't really need the smaller denominations. People will still be trading in coins for small purchases.
The spell-notes will primarily used to trade in large sums - I mean, which would you rather carry down to Ye Olde Magicke Shoppe: 46lbs of gold, possibly in some sort of barrow; or two 7th-level-spell-notes, one 5th-level-spell-note and three 1ist-level-spell-notes?

We may need catchier names, though. I'm sufficiently enchanted by this idea that I'm going of to look through my PHB for suitably iconic (and visual) spells that the notes could be named after (and have depicted on the notes maybe). I may be back with results later but no-one hold their breath.

Quincunx
2009-04-29, 09:31 AM
I don't know about formal names for the spellscrip (that's not a typo, look up 'scrip') but the informal names will likely be linked to those most useful spells, cures and heals. Four Rezzes = 20,000gp. Also, while 3rd level spellscrip exists, nobody likes to handle "boomers (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/explosiveRunes.htm)", except possibly adolescents.

hewhosaysfish
2009-04-29, 11:05 AM
Right, here are my ideas about possible designs for different levels of spellscrips (thanks Quincunx!):

Firstly, they have to be for spells that people will go to a temple or a wizards' guild to get cast for them: No-one few people would pay a wizard to cast Fireball on them and he's sure to charge over the standard level for spellcasting services if you ask him to come into a dungeon full of orcs with you. He might go to your building site to cast Wall of Stone, though, and clerics will likely do house-calls. Attack spells and short-duration buffs are probably out, though.

Secondly, they shouldn't have expensive material components. A 5th level spellscrip may be worth 450gp, the casting price of Raise Dead but won't cover the cost of the necessary diamonds. If the design on your 5th level scip shows a man being Raised from the Dead, it's only going to cause confusion. Maybe have a special Raise Dead scip worth 5,450gp.

Thirdly, some spells I have a hard time imaging being drawn. What does a picture of a Mind Blank look like? Remove Curse? Even Teleport?

With that in mind, some suggestions:

Wizard spells:

0 - Mending. Picture showing a broken object of some quality. Not just a pot, which can be replaced a lot cheaper than this spell.
1 - Endure Elements. Showing a man (wizard?) striding through a snowstorm, or possibly across the desert depending on what would seems more useful in the local climate.
2 - Locate Object. Showing a wizard dowsing, with appropriate rod.
3 - Water Breathing. A man (wizard?) walking on the bottom of a river, past fish and weeds.
4 - Scrying. A wizard staring into his crystal ball.
5 - Overland Flight. Easier to depict than Teleport or Sending: a man (wizard?) soaring over tree-tops.
6 - Hmmm... Get an artist to deliver his interpretations of Stone to Flesh and Move Earth. Use the one that's easiest to understand.
7 - Control Weather. A wizard standing under either a huge storm cloud he's summoned or a circle of clear sky in the center of a storm. The first says "awesome power", the second "responsible citizen and businessman".
8 - PAO. A wizard shoots "energy" from his staff at several objects. Their transformation is represented by superimposing the outlines of the new and original forms over eachother.
9 - Gate. Travel variety. A big honking hole in the landscape with a strange and exotic world visible through it.

Some spells with expensive components that it might be useful to have special scrips to the value of:

Identify/Continual Flame 110
Non-detection/Illusory Script 200
Teleportation Circle 2530
Wish 26530


And what about the wizard depicted in some of the design? Who should he be? Famous wizards of history? Current luminaries of the wizards' guild issuing the scrip? Specially create a generic "mascot" wizard for the purpose?



Cleric spells:

0 - Purify Food and Drink. Show food that's 'orrible and rotten on one side and wholesome and appetising on the other with some sort of line of "energy" seperating them, implied to be sweeping from one side to the other.
1 - Comprehend Languages. Show people of different races (species) and races (ethnicity) engaged in conversation. Gently stress a few stereotypes to make it clear they're foreign.
2 - Make Whole. Show it doing distinctly more than the wizards' mending.
3 - Remove Disease. Cleric tending the sick, if we can depict people as obviously diseased without making them to unpleasant to look at. Otherwise - Create Food and Water.
4 - Discern Lies. Show a cleric testifying in court. If we don;t go for Remove disease for #3, we could do Neutralise Poison here. This frees up the court-room scene for use with Zone of Truth in #2 (complete with chair of truth (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0388.html)
5 - Plane Shift. The Wizard's can't do it until level 7. Just show a scene from one of the more exotic (but not too threatening) Planes.
6 - Wind Walk is the best cleric spell ever!!! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0647.html)
7 - Regenerate. Cleric tending person with missing limb(s).
8 - ??? Not many good options here. Maybe just go with Earthquake or Firestorm to put the fear of God(s) into people.
9 - Mass Heal. Remind people what we're all about.

Spells to make special scrips for:
Divination 305
Restoration 380
Commune 950
Hallow 1450
Restoration, Greater 3410
Raise Dead 5450
Ressurection 10910
True Ressurection/Miracle (big) 26530

Forbiddance is an awkward one... could be anywhere from 3660-18660gp depending on the area to be covered. Probably best to go with the smallest area possible and ask for more money to expand it rather than going with the largest area possible and overcharging them.

And, similarly to the wizard's above, who should be the kindly cleric frequently shown ministering to the sick in the designs? Historical figure? Current figure? Invented figure?
Assuming your religion requires humility, it's probably better to go with a fiction "mascot" cleric than any real person.


What do people think of my ideas? Anyone want to offer any alternative suggestions (especially people with more splatbooks (i.e. any) to draw from)?

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-04-29, 11:18 AM
For the Wizards, my guild's symbol would be a spellcasting rabbit. Most, though, I see going with the generic 'old dude in dress with a funny hat'.

For Cleric's, the caster is probably going to be designed to show divinity. Either the god, an avatar of the god, or a priest(in traditional vestments) holding an obvious symbol of the god(crook for the god of shepherds, sword for the god of war, etc) with the spell coming out of the symbol rather than the man.

shimmercat
2009-04-29, 12:06 PM
Couple of quick comments:

We originally wrote different currencies into the different nations of our homebrew world, which were actually much simpler than the ones described. We had to ditch them because they were just way too annoying in practice and we just weren't bothering. So I'm on the side of "Great for flavor, but too much of a pain in practice."

The spellscrips idea, however, is really interesting, especially in a high-magic world/area of the world. I think it would work where other currency varieties fail simply because it's for such large denominations.

Kosjsjach
2009-04-29, 12:21 PM
I just wanna hop on the bandwagon and say the spellscrips are a fantastic idea. I especially like the notion of a widespread church or coalition of churches being responsible.

chiasaur11
2009-04-29, 12:23 PM
I just wanna hop on the bandwagon and say the spellscrips are a fantastic idea. I especially like the notion of a widespread church or coalition of churches being responsible.

Yes.

Also, it lets the PCs in on the game if they're willing to take big risks at high levels.

Kosjsjach
2009-04-29, 12:31 PM
[...]
Basically, conducting a major purchase in these currencies would be an adventure in itself. If you want to buy the Wand of Darkness from the drow merchant prince, you have to first scrounge/borrow/steal enough crystals from somewhere, then make the trip into the Underdark to the drow city, then survive the bargaining process. It could make for quite a fun session.
:smallbiggrin: Yes. This is exactly what I was going for. Thank you. :smallsmile:

Oracle_Hunter
2009-04-29, 12:34 PM
I just wanna hop on the bandwagon and say the spellscrips are a fantastic idea. I especially like the notion of a widespread church or coalition of churches being responsible.
Do be sure to make those coalitions either very widespread or very powerful. The average innkeeper in Ye Olde Hamlet can always use gold, but a piece of paper for spellcasting in a nation he'll never get within 100 miles of? Unless he sees a lot of travel to-and-from said nation, it is of little worth to him - it is more fragile than a gold piece and the village butcher will be skeptical of its value.

Sergeantbrother
2009-04-29, 02:06 PM
I like the ideas of the alternate currency. As some have said, there is an issue with the orc and draw currency in that it seems to be highly vulnerable to inflation - since both the number of crystals and the number of teeth in circulation have the potential to increase quite rapidly. In the case of the drow, you have a true fiat currency where noble houses basically own the printing presses - I could see the crystals losing their value fairy quickly. Both have potential though.

With orcs you would probably have to only allow certain exotic or difficult to obtain teeth be currency. If orc teeth are currency then they would likely be worth very little as the number of orc teeth available would increase over time. Unless perhaps orc teeth rot more quickly than human teeth, which would limit the value along with the number of the teeth. The teeth or tusks of large beasts could be a could currency though, though it really borders more on a bartering system. It would seem like orcs would still value precious metals, especially if they could use the metals in some way. Perhaps orc metallic currency could be scale shaped pieces of bronze or iron, with a small hole that would allow it to be sewn onto a backing to make scale armor. When you get rich enough, you've got scale armor. When you get really rich, you have your own warband which you equip with armor.

For drow crystals, I was wondering if perhaps you could require some effort to be put into the creation of the crystals. If making them requires work, then the value of labor influences the value of the crystal. Maybe drow mages use their magic to create a crystal and instill some of their magical energy into the crystal - like creating a very minor magic item. Then at some later date, the magic stored in the crystal could be released by another mage. In this way, the value of the crystals are backed by the potential use each represents and the number is limited by the labor required to create them and the fact that they can be used up.

The other currencies seem good if somewhat more straightforward, I particularly like the hobgoblin centralized authority issue, though it may well lead to lots of counterfeiting.

A method I use in one of my setting is a currency called the osteri, which is a weight set by a large and powerful empire and the currency is based on copper of that weight. So anything you buy or sell is based on how many osteris it is worth, not broken into gold pieces, silver pieces, or the like. Kind of like just using dollars. Though in that setting, gold and silver are far more valuable than in standard D&D, and the value of the osteri is closer to a gold piece in terms of buying many items. That is a problem with much of D&D currency when you compare it to history, there is far too much gold and silver going around, which leads to weird things like a silver holy symbol being worth more than its weight in gold.

Totally Guy
2009-04-29, 05:44 PM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v44/macdonnell/Coins.jpg

Here we have some coins I have.

The largest pile is the Dwarven Dural, they are made of precious metal and they can be checked against each other by interlocking the inward groove againt the outer groove. When held up to the light the rune shines a little. The largest one is copper to the smallest one which is platinum. I believe that the copper Durals cost more to make than they're worth but they still appear common due to Dwarven pride.

The flowery pile is the Elven coin. The individual coins snap in half and then down to individual petals. The Blue petal is worth just a little more than a copper piece to the full yellow flower which is worth 1 gold. They're a pain because they snap in your pocket, they don't have anything for bigger values than a gold piece and they divide into 8, not 10.

The smallest pile is the Talon, which is considered far more universally recognised than the other two. The large gold coin you see is actually worth a platinum, the large green coin is the gold piece. These are actually forgeries that I have here, I took them out because it's not fun or fair to surprise your players with fake coins. The party have the real ones including some coppers that aren't worth forging. I believe the kingdom backs them with value.

And I also have cool cufflinks.

Fizban
2009-04-29, 07:41 PM
If you decide to pursue it further, look up info on native Americans and how they valued bear claws and eagle feathers.)

This. Orc teeth aren't worth anything, but beast fangs and whatnot are. Naturally some orcs with good survival skill could appraise them if you need some sort of standard.



For example, player A has 100,000 gp's in currency. He notes down:
- 20k in Dwarven bullion.
- 30k in Elven leafs.
- 5k in Orc teeth.
- 15k in Drow Crystals
- 30k in Hobgoblin coins.

Also this. At early levels you can count coins, but after a while you just start putting down where they came from and take a hit if you need to visit a money changer. Every once in a while you find some ancient coins that are worth more than their weight to make up for paying changer costs.


Also in full support of spell services as a high level currency with large organizations. Divine spells would probably go by "cures", "regens", "heals", rezzes" and such. Arcane spells... I think it's best to only have one spell of a particular level to avoid confusion, but arcane spells are most known for destruction. Maybe movement spells: "jumps", "flies", "teleports", and such. The name spellscrip is pretty cool, but it implies a genericness that doesn't mesh with it being tied to a specific spell. I'd use either shorthand names or just "Xgp in spellscrip".

Sadly, without making them into mana potions, there's no way to avoid it requiring large organizations to back.

Oh, and also supporting magic drow crystals that store magic for item creation. Frank and K's Tome on the subject described basically all magic item components as gems, meaning gems always have instrinsic value: these crystals could be the same.

Edit: could call divine spells "prayers" and arcane spells "favors"?

Xenogears
2009-04-29, 08:31 PM
++Drow
As the most widespread and influential of the civilized humanoid races of the underdark, the dark elves have mandated that all transactions within their range of influence use only luminescent crystals grown and regulated by them.
These luminescent crystals feed and grow from the ambient magical energy permeating the underdark, and are grown only under the strict jurisdiction of the drow houses. Each drow ruling house grows its own hue of crystal, and the current politics of the houses determines a crystal's value in relation to that of other houses.
The other races that conduct business in the underdark tolerate this, particularly because all major transactions are by default moderated by the dark elves, and they keep both sides (relatively) fair.

Since Drow tended to not use any lighting except that visable as heat (atleast in the stories I've read) then having the crystals luminescent is a bit odd. I think having different colours for different houses is interesting but might need some tweaking at the least. I mean if a house falls is its currency still worth anything? Actually having different currencies worth different amounts within Drow society goes way beyond hellish bookkeeping nightmare.....

I do however rather enjoy the idea of the Drow forcing all the other underdark residents to use their currency. I think it would be interesting to have all the other races act really resentful. I think it would be amusing to make the crystals be worth the same amount no matter which house makes them for simplicities sake. Then have it be absolutely worthless by itself and explain it as a way for the Drow to ensure that the other Underdark residents have no gold to trade with anyone and are forced to trade with the Drow. Typical Drow treachery mixed with an elven sense of superiority.

Oracle_Hunter
2009-04-29, 09:21 PM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v44/macdonnell/Coins.jpg

Here we have some coins I have.

The largest pile is the Dwarven Dural, they are made of precious metal and they can be checked against each other by interlocking the inward groove againt the outer groove. When held up to the light the rune shines a little. The largest one is copper to the smallest one which is platinum. I believe that the copper Durals cost more to make than they're worth but they still appear common due to Dwarven pride.

The flowery pile is the Elven coin. The individual coins snap in half and then down to individual petals. The Blue petal is worth just a little more than a copper piece to the full yellow flower which is worth 1 gold. They're a pain because they snap in your pocket, they don't have anything for bigger values than a gold piece and they divide into 8, not 10.

The smallest pile is the Talon, which is considered far more universally recognised than the other two. The large gold coin you see is actually worth a platinum, the large green coin is the gold piece. These are actually forgeries that I have here, I took them out because it's not fun or fair to surprise your players with fake coins. The party have the real ones including some coppers that aren't worth forging. I believe the kingdom backs them with value.

And I also have cool cufflinks.
That's pretty sweet. Did you make them or buy them? Either way, how?

Totally Guy
2009-04-30, 04:34 AM
That's pretty sweet. Did you make them or buy them? Either way, how?

As with any time time somebody likes something I own I have to give credit to World Works Games.

I paid to download their fantasy coins PDFs. Then they are printed on cardstock, cut out and glued. Then I edged each coin with a marker pen to hide the white edges.

Edit: Oh... Flat plain cufflinks, scrabble tiles and superglue.:smallwink:

Thrawn183
2009-04-30, 08:24 PM
I think the orc's using teeth as currency is really flavorful but I'm concerned when a currency litterally grows on... well not trees but people and animals. It seems to me like somebody could go to a battlefield where say, elves and humans had fought and become the wealthiest orc ever.

Myrmex
2009-04-30, 08:48 PM
If orcs decide that teeth have intrinsic value, then they have intrinsic value. For orcs. In orc society. You would, of course, have to trade with orcs to get goods from teeth you collected.

I would do it this way- teeth collected from an encounter of CR X are worth the gp of that encounter. If you are far from orc lands, then they are only worth X/10. If you are close to orc lands, then they are worth X.

I also like the idea of the Drow having independent banks that each issue their own currency. I've always imagined Drow society being a laissez faire system take to extremes. Of course they're going to have an unstable currency system- they're Drow.

Dwarves could also use gems or gemstones as currency, or even a fiat system of stone tablets that indicate "favors", since they are such an honor bound society. Sort of like the "Churches" solution in the Epic Level Handbook.

Another advantage to using different currency systems is that you can now fill the dragon's hoard with 1 million gold pieces- enough to Scrooge McDuck into- without ruining the party's WBL.

This is, of course, precluding easy access to Plane Shift or Teleport. With those spells, everything will tend towards a sort of universal worth, since there are no transaction costs, you can almost always supply goods to those who want them the most. Ie, if you slay a bunch of dinosaurs in the elf forest, you can teleport to orc lands and sell those teeth for full price.


(They absolutely must not actually do this labor because that would put everyone out of a job and ruin the economy.)

Ahh, the myth of labor.

Oracle_Hunter
2009-04-30, 09:10 PM
If orcs decide that teeth have intrinsic value, then they have intrinsic value. For orcs. In orc society. You would, of course, have to trade with orcs to get goods from teeth you collected.
And the inflation would be ridiculous, unless the orcs destroyed the teeth in obtaining their intrinsic value (maybe it makes an awesome color of paint?). Teeth don't decay quickly, and there are always more being made.

Just because you're fiating value doesn't mean you can ignore monetary reality :smallamused:

Ravens_cry
2009-04-30, 09:43 PM
There is a precedent for money that grows, shell money. And it, with the notable exception of the advanced forms of cowry shells, which had a lot of work going into it before it was recognized as money, was often worthless outside of the specific tribe.
Perhaps strings of polished teeth, maybe scrimshawed with with simple hatch marks denoting value?
Idea for the spell-scrip. Make some. And print it. It will be a lot of work, but it will make tracking the different denominations easier for the players, and what is cooler then having the DM go 'the king rewards you greatly' and hands you a wad of cash? Fake cash, but still, cash.
Just a thought.

Myrmex
2009-04-30, 09:50 PM
And the inflation would be ridiculous, unless the orcs destroyed the teeth in obtaining their intrinsic value (maybe it makes an awesome color of paint?). Teeth don't decay quickly, and there are always more being made.

Just because you're fiating value doesn't mean you can ignore monetary reality

Or orcs just don't keep good track of their teeth. They could decay fast, or not be worth much. Or be as valuable as the lowly copper piece- useless to adventures except in multiples of 100.

But who worries about inflation, anyway? You've got adventurers hauling millions of gold out of dungeons and then hemorrhaging it all over the place. When it takes a pound of gold to purchase a level 1 healing potion, you've already got some serious inflation.

Gold, in the real world, is worth 8,000 dollars per pound. Consider how many things you can purchase with a pound of gold IRL, and the near worthlessness of a pound of gold in D&D.


:smallamused:

What's with all the red, sarcastic faces?

Ravens_cry
2009-04-30, 10:12 PM
Actually, while it is more static then it should be in real life, the near worthlessness of gold makes sense in light of inflation, what with all the ancient gold adventures inject into the local economy, making gold worth a whole bunch less.

TheCountAlucard
2009-04-30, 10:14 PM
You've got adventurers hauling millions of gold out of dungeons and then hemorrhaging it all over the place.Maybe as a collective, but not individually, unless the party is epically epic.


When it takes a pound of gold to purchase a level 1 healing potion, you've already got some serious inflation.I see what you did there!

Consider, as it were, that you need a 3rd-level divine caster (or, I suppose, a 3rd-level bard would also work) that has the Brew Potion feat to make a potion of cure light wounds. Keeping in mind that your average laborer earns a silver piece a day, it takes him a year and a half to earn one. With 99% of the population being first-level commoners, it's not so much that gold pieces are undervalued; players just seriously undervalue magic items. Your average PC just happens to be frickin' rich.

Myrmex
2009-04-30, 10:20 PM
Consider, as it were, that you need a 3rd-level divine caster (or, I suppose, a 3rd-level bard would also work) that has the Brew Potion feat to make a potion of cure light wounds. Keeping in mind that your average laborer earns a silver piece a day, it takes him a year and a half to earn one. With 99% of the population being first-level commoners, it's not so much that gold pieces are undervalued; players just seriously undervalue magic items. Your average PC just happens to be frickin' rich.

Ok.
This affects PCs how?

Copper pieces are about as common as orc teeth.

Dervag
2009-04-30, 10:23 PM
I think the orc's using teeth as currency is really flavorful but I'm concerned when a currency litterally grows on... well not trees but people and animals. It seems to me like somebody could go to a battlefield where say, elves and humans had fought and become the wealthiest orc ever.There's a few catches with that:
1)Other orcs have the same idea, so you'll have to duke it out with other scavengers.
2)Prying teeth out of someone's mouth is not easy work, so you'll have problems accumulating vast numbers of teeth this way.
3)If you don't have enough personal power to match your 'wealth' in teeth, there's nothing stopping other orcs from beating you up and taking your teeth... and you can interpret "taking your teeth" however you like.

So as a practical matter, the size of the tooth-hoard an orc can hope to own is roughly proportionate to his standing in orc society. Weaklings will be hard pressed to hang onto the teeth in their own mouth; chieftains who earned loyalty or fear from those around them will be able to keep more.

Thus, the teeth can act as currency a bit more easily. They aren't pure fiat money- an ogre incisor in orc A's hands is worth roughly as much as in orc B's hands, even if orc C isn't telling both of them to treat it as currency. But the underlying orc economy is violent enough that the only ones who can use great numbers of teeth to make large purchases are the ones who would probably get what they want anyway, even if the tooth currency didn't exist.

In a sense, the teeth are just tokens of how hard the other orc would have to hit you to get you to do what he wants... and they're backed by the threat of violence if you refuse to do it for what he considers a reasonable sum of teeth. It's perverse, I know, but I can see it working.
______


Or orcs just don't keep good track of their teeth. They could decay fast, or not be worth much. Or be as valuable as the lowly copper piece- useless to adventures except in multiples of 100.

But who worries about inflation, anyway? You've got adventurers hauling millions of gold out of dungeons and then hemorrhaging it all over the place. When it takes a pound of gold to purchase a level 1 healing potion, you've already got some serious inflation.

Gold, in the real world, is worth 8,000 dollars per pound. Consider how many things you can purchase with a pound of gold IRL, and the near worthlessness of a pound of gold in D&D.50 gold pieces... enough food to feed a family for months, clothe a village, equip ten journeyman craftsmen with the tools of their trade, hop aboard ship and disappear in the next country... yeah. Worthless.

Look at the mundane stuff on the price list, not the magic items and warhorses and stuff only nobles could afford in real life. The whole point of the game is that D&D adventurers become extremely rich and gain great personal power. But they do it by going into environments where the risk of death is far higher than it is in normal life, which is why not everyone is crazy enough to try, and why even those who are often die rather than coming back rich and powerful.

Myrmex
2009-04-30, 10:35 PM
50 gold pieces... enough food to feed a family for months, clothe a village, equip ten journeyman craftsmen with the tools of their trade, hop aboard ship and disappear in the next country... yeah. Worthless.

Look at the mundane stuff on the price list, not the magic items and warhorses and stuff only nobles could afford in real life. The whole point of the game is that D&D adventurers become extremely rich and gain great personal power. But they do it by going into environments where the risk of death is far higher than it is in normal life, which is why not everyone is crazy enough to try, and why even those who are often die rather than coming back rich and powerful.

You've just rebutted your own rebuttal- the peasants don't matter.

Oracle_Hunter
2009-04-30, 11:01 PM
You've just rebutted your own rebuttal- the peasants don't matter.
At this point, I guess it's important to distinguish these two schools of thought:

(1) Rule of Cool
Orc teeth as currency is awesome, as are elven gems. They work because they do.

(2) Keepin' It Real
Orc teeth as currency will lead to massive inflation as the money supply literally grows every day. Elven gems make poor currency because they can't have a fixed value, aside from being fiat money - but they're fine for bartering.

If you just want the PCs to go out and find treasure, and then buy awesome stuff with it, then the peasants don't matter - this is an Acceptable Break From Reality (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AcceptableBreaksFromReality?from=Main.AcceptableBr eakFromReality) for a Swords & Sorcery Heroic Fantasy RPG.

However, if you want things to react realistically - that is, to respond is issues such as inflation, price setting by supply and demand, and capital restrictions - then it becomes much harder to justify.

That said, neither route is "superior" to the other - you know what kind of game you want to run, so don't worry about stuff that doesn't matter to you.

deuxhero
2009-05-01, 08:19 AM
You might draw some inspiration from online games where players use a meta currency instead of gold like how runes (or Stone of Jordon rings) in Diablo II are considered "liquid" assets.


You could also make Elfs Marxists (something about this is oddly fitting...).

Myrmex
2009-05-01, 09:21 PM
At this point, I guess it's important to distinguish these two schools of thought:

(1) Rule of Cool
Orc teeth as currency is awesome, as are elven gems. They work because they do.

(2) Keepin' It Real
Orc teeth as currency will lead to massive inflation as the money supply literally grows every day. Elven gems make poor currency because they can't have a fixed value, aside from being fiat money - but they're fine for bartering.

If you just want the PCs to go out and find treasure, and then buy awesome stuff with it, then the peasants don't matter - this is an Acceptable Break From Reality (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AcceptableBreaksFromReality?from=Main.AcceptableBr eakFromReality) for a Swords & Sorcery Heroic Fantasy RPG.

However, if you want things to react realistically - that is, to respond is issues such as inflation, price setting by supply and demand, and capital restrictions - then it becomes much harder to justify.

That said, neither route is "superior" to the other - you know what kind of game you want to run, so don't worry about stuff that doesn't matter to you.

Ehh, the D&D economy, combined with its magic system, is so retardedly broken, that I don't think you have to worry about anything beyond it "kind of making sense." There's no reason for a complete model for anything, anyway. Most D&D games are handwavium.

As long as the system makes some sense, and is fun, and cool, then there's nothing wrong with it. Orcs using teeth as money, and elves putting value in the rarity of the labor required to sculpt a gem, and dwarves just really, really, really liking gold all works, at least peripherally. There's no reason for deep economic analysis of any of the situations, since that's not what the game is about. If it was, we wouldn't have 2/3 of all material devoted to murdering stuff, right?

Jarawara
2009-05-01, 09:55 PM
I think the teeth idea has merit. Maybe not as a standard currency, but then again maybe the Orcs have no standard and simply use a combination of barter and whatever coins they have taken from the realms of man.

But teeth... that's a sign of personal combat prowess. If you possess the teeth of your enemy, then surely you have defeated that enemy in battle. That's gotta be worth something. (And yes, that logic fails once you trade it away for a goatskin, but I never meant to imply that Orcs were logical.)

Plus, think of the flavor here.

Gorok, warrior: "That sword. I want it. I have elven teeth for trade."

Thoemak, arms merchant: "Let see these teeth. Any of them broken?"

Gorok: "No, teeth complete."

Thoemak: "Too bad. I'd like to think the Elf suffered before he died. Broken teeth hurt."

Gorok: "Disembowlment good enough."

Thoemak: "That's good. Hey... these are molars. Not as valuable as eyeteeth. You tried to cheat me."

Gorok: "This sword is not very sharp. You tried to cheat me."

Thoemak grumbles, accepts trade. "Anything else."

Gorok: "That shield there, the shiny one."

Thoemak: "Very expensive."

Gorok produces another small bag, opens it to reveal only two large incisors. "Wyvern teeth."

Thoemak stares with wonder, and then without a word quickly gets Gorok his new shield, before Gorok can reconsider the trade.


Yeah, I think teeth based currency would add great flavor to a campaign.

*~*~*

hehehehe.... I just had another thought.

Mialee: "So, have you found the Elvenstar? It must be around here somewhere."

Tordek: "I... may have found it. Was it the really shiny white bottle thingie?"

Mialee: "Yes, that was it. Where is it?"

Tordek: "I traded it away. Sorry, I didn't know what it was."

Mialee: "You traded away the Elven nation's most prized possession? Are you crazy?"

Tordek: "No, I'm dwarven."

Mialee shakes her head in disgust. "Well I hope you're happy with whatever baubles you got in return!"

Tordek fingers his nice new elventeeth necklass hidden under his beard. "Yes, everytime I think of it, it shall warm my heart."

:smallamused:

Zhalath
2009-05-01, 10:38 PM
Warhammer 40000 Orks use teeth as currency. But their's grow back, like a shark.

One thing you have to watch about alternate currencies is how spells affect them. Many creation spells state they won't create precious metals, so you can't just sit there and pull money out of a hat everyday. You'd have to reword the spells, to de-include the currencies.

I like these ideas of alternate currencies, especially the spellscrips. I may have to try them.

Another idea for currency could be the scales of dragons. They're as durable as a metal and are rather hard to collect, so less inflation than teeth. Different colors could be worth more, depending on species (red scales worth more than whites). It gives a whole new meaning to "a dragon's treasure trove". It does have the issue of probably pushing dragons to extinction, due to the fact that they are quite literally made of money.

Tsotha-lanti
2009-05-02, 04:21 AM
It does have the issue of probably pushing dragons to extinction, due to the fact that they are quite literally made of money.

I fail to see how the scales being valuable (which they already are) would make people more successful at hunting dragons.

Worira
2009-05-02, 08:18 AM
Do be sure to make those coalitions either very widespread or very powerful. The average innkeeper in Ye Olde Hamlet can always use gold, but a piece of paper for spellcasting in a nation he'll never get within 100 miles of? Unless he sees a lot of travel to-and-from said nation, it is of little worth to him - it is more fragile than a gold piece and the village butcher will be skeptical of its value.

What exactly can an innkeeper use gold for, other than trade?

Tsotha-lanti
2009-05-02, 08:38 AM
What exactly can an innkeeper use gold for, other than trade?

The theory is that gold and silver coins are intrinsic currency; the metals have (roughly comparable) value throughout the civilized world. This almost certainly wouldn't be accurate historically, but there you go...

The spell-scrip, meanwhile, would be less and less relevant the further away you get from the issuing person - unless, of course, they're backed (and honored) by a very wide-spread organization (the worldwide cult of a powerful deity, or a coalition of cults/temples, or a coalition of arcanists' guilds).

Essentially, the spell-scrip would be exactly like modern paper money (except backed by something very tangible and actually unarguably valuable - spellcasting!) - and I can't use Swedish kronor notes in a shop in Finland. I have to get them exchanged. (Of course, if you offer enough notes, a shop-owner may very well accept them and take the trouble to exchange them...)

Thane of Fife
2009-05-02, 08:52 AM
I am going to say that this is a bad idea, from experience. I am currently running a game using the following currency system, and it is a tremendous pain for essentially no benefit. It essentially means an extra three or four steps every time somebody wants to buy something, and I have yet to see any benefit from it.

Restricting it to only exotic civilizations could definitely work, though.


Coins:

Septarian Coins:

Septarian Sildrik: The Sildrik is, without a doubt, the most common coin in the world. It is made of silver, and shows the image of a two-headed man. It has a stable value, and is therefore popular with all peoples. Bears a value of 1 sp.

Septarian Gol: The Gol is a bit smaller than the Sildrik, and shows a dog. It's worth 1/2 of an sp.

Septarian Tengol: A silver coin which bears a small, square hole at its center. As its name implies, it's worth 5 sp, or 10 Gols.

Pedrak Coins (From Pedrakos):

Pedrak Crescent: The crescent is iron, and shaped like a crescent moon, with the pointy ends touching, giving it a roughly oval shape. It's worth 1/10 of an sp.

Pedrak Full: This is a full circle, and is quite a large coin, at about 3" across. It's made of iron, with a circle of silver near the center. Bears a value of 4/5 of an sp, or 8 Crescents.

Mayl Coins (From Maylhewshire):

Mayl Lofa: Essentially, a fairly large cylinder of silver. Quite heavy and awkward to carry around. It's worth an awkward 7/4 of an sp.

Ssanish Coins (From Ssan Tanar):

Ssanish Shard: The Shard is roughly 1/2 the size of a Sildrik, and is made of silver. It looks roughly like a half of a circle, and bears somewhat jagged edges. Shards are cut to a specific weight, to prevent people from shaving silver off of them. The Shard are considered to be a less stable coin than the Gol. Each is worth 1/2 of an sp.

Ssanish Halfshard: Looks like a quarter of a circle, and is about half the size of a shard. Obviously, has half the value: 1/4 of an sp.

Kamalt Coins (From Kamaltar):

Kamalt Crown: Made of silver, and roughly the size of a Sildrik, the Crown is another popular coinage. Each one is worth 3/2 of an sp, and bears an image of whomever was king of Kamaltar when the coin was made. Sufficiently old coins contain more silver, and are more valuable.

Kamalt Throne: The only golden coin in the world is the Throne. Roughly the size of a Sildrik, Thrones are extremely rare, and are not found in common circulation. Each is worth about 120 sp. Thrones are more of a sign of wealth than an actual currency.

Isint Coins:

Isint Aklun: About the size of a Sildrik, the Aklun is made of iron, and is worth 1/5 of an sp.

Isint Shamaj: Slightly larger than a Sildrik, and made of silver, the Shamaj is nonetheless less valuable, coming in at roughly 9/10 of an sp.

Ylork Coins (From Ylorka):

Ylork Hammerpenny: A small, cylindrical silver coin. The Hammerpenny is on the bulky side for a coin, and comes in at a value of 1/2 of an sp. Has its name because a Hammerpenny is just enough to buy a hammer. A very stable coin.

Ylork Delve: A much larger, cylindrical silver coin. Very heavy and bulky. The Delve has a value of 5 sp, which is enough to buy a hammers for a delve, or ten people.


Note that unlisted nations either use Septarian coinage, or, in the case of Avelorne, do not use money at all. With the exception of Septarian, Kamalt, and Ylork coins, all moneys are slightly devalued when spent in a land other than their homeland.

Zhalath
2009-05-02, 10:18 AM
I fail to see how the scales being valuable (which they already are) would make people more successful at hunting dragons.

Well, that resolves my issue then. My point was that more people would try. If you roll a d20 enough, you'll get a 20 eventually. If there's an increase in people hunting dragons, more dragons will die. But yeah, it wouldn't increase skill at dragonhunting.

Actually, it might decrease dragon death, because killing more dragons weakens the currency, so smart economists will encourage allowing dragons to live.

Tsotha-lanti
2009-05-02, 11:03 AM
Well, that resolves my issue then. My point was that more people would try. If you roll a d20 enough, you'll get a 20 eventually. If there's an increase in people hunting dragons, more dragons will die. But yeah, it wouldn't increase skill at dragonhunting.

Actually, it might decrease dragon death, because killing more dragons weakens the currency, so smart economists will encourage allowing dragons to live.

These "economists" have absolutely no control over what people do for money, though. That's the problem with any currency you can just forage for (like teeth).

Indeed, the idea is nonsensical when you think about it. If people were killing so many dragons that they were flooding the market with scales and devaluing the currency... governments and businesses would stop using or accepting the scales as currency. They'd start accepting and using, say, the non-dragon-scale currency of a neighboring country that they have strong trade with.

But this wouldn't apply to dragon scales anyway, not only because will people won't succeed at hunting them more (and the scales would be a pretty measly reward for the investment and risk for actual successful dragon-slayers; you need hundreds of thousands of gold pieces worth of magic gear and spells), but also because it's really, really unlikely to cause an increase in dragon-hunting attempts, since the proportional increase in a dragon's treasure's value would be pretty tiny: they already have treasures measured in tens or hundreds of thousands of gold-piece-worths, and adding some scales on top of that won't make it significantly more profitable. (And shouldn't, on a gaming level, because then you'd screw up WBL and encounter treasure rewards badly.)

Also, "natural 20" is a nonsense argument in this context; to my knowledge, no DM in the world rolls dice for everything that every NPC in their setting does. PCs roll, and the PCs are the exception and only about half a dozen people out of the entire world's population...

JonestheSpy
2009-05-02, 01:05 PM
Seems like fun to me, though it can get complicated quickly. Love the dorw crystal imagery, as the OP said.

Also, provides great opportunities to mess with your players - if they've got a huge treasure haul but no one will accept it as currency.

As for the "wanting gold to mean something", I agree. I tend to use a silver standard, switching the prices for most (but not all) items from gold to silver.

Jarawara
2009-05-02, 01:34 PM
I can just see a whole industry of 'teeth counterfeitting' popping up.

"Hey, this tooth is made of clay!"

"No, that's just an older dragon's tooth. They do that as they age, start to crumble. It makes them more valuable, honest."

:smallwink: