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magic9mushroom
2009-04-29, 01:16 PM
Why can't evil or neutral characters take it? I mean, there are multiple examples in fiction of evil characters who are charitable and have few material possessions (Darken Rahl from the Sword of Truth series is a prime example), and even a couple of real-world examples (Attila the Hun springs to mind).

Cause I can't help thinking it'd be awesome to have an ur-priest with this feat.

The Rose Dragon
2009-04-29, 01:22 PM
Because self-sacrifice for the sake of others is considered good in D&D.

Go figure, I thought that was for the continuation of the species.

magic9mushroom
2009-04-29, 01:31 PM
Because self-sacrifice for the sake of others is considered good in D&D.

Go figure, I thought that was for the continuation of the species.

Indeed it is, but evil characters can have virtues, just as good characters can have vices. Only evil outsiders cannot have good qualities.

Tempest Fennac
2009-04-29, 01:34 PM
A couple of the vows have nothing to do with goodness (namely adstainance and chastity), so I agree that having those as being only for good characters doesn;t make much sense.

streakster
2009-04-29, 01:37 PM
I like refluffing it as a vow of decadence - you have to waste all your money on useless luxuries. You are allowed fine silk clothing instead of a robe, an ornate, jewel-encrusted, almost useless weapon instead of a simple staff, etc.

SnowballMan
2009-04-29, 02:17 PM
Is there some game benefit to taking a vow of poverty?

Other then that, there would have to be some creative compelling reasons for an evil character to want to impoverished.

"I have heard claims by other assassins at their prowess. Enchanted item on top of enchanted item. Where is the challenge in that? Where is the fun? Where is the thrill of killing a man with his on silvered spoon? I'd like to see anyone of them achieve THAT."

Actually, that would make a fun character.

Tempest Fennac
2009-04-29, 02:24 PM
SnowballMan, SoD is working on an NE Shapeshifter Druid with VoP at the minute (the idea behind the character is that he really enjoys killing things, but he hates civilisation to the point where he doesn't want to have material possessions).

The Rose Dragon
2009-04-29, 02:35 PM
Indeed it is, but evil characters can have virtues, just as good characters can have vices. Only evil outsiders cannot have good qualities.

I'd like to point out that there is a LG Paladin demon. So everyone can have good qualities.

Yuki Akuma
2009-04-29, 02:38 PM
Is there some game benefit to taking a vow of poverty?

Yes.

Yes there is.

You basically get intrinsic abilities that mimic the effects of magic items. Except you don't get to choose which abilities you get.

The Rose Dragon
2009-04-29, 02:43 PM
Yes.

Yes there is.

You basically get intrinsic abilities that mimic the effects of magic items. Except you don't get to choose which abilities you get.

And those abilities are worse than what you might get in a WBL game (not one of mine). And they're much easier to lose (one evil act, ever, and you're out).

Lamech
2009-04-29, 02:49 PM
Which is why you take the feat that lets you know if your about to commit an evil act and tell your DM your, always using it. Every action.

magic9mushroom
2009-04-29, 02:58 PM
And those abilities are worse than what you might get in a WBL game (not one of mine). And they're much easier to lose (one evil act, ever, and you're out).

Has to be a willing and wilful evil act.

And as written, the feat forbids wizards, since they can't own a spellbook. However, a sane DM would notice that other exceptions are given to accomodate other classes and let them have it.

While it is indeed worse than WBL items, you have to consider that there will be situations in which you can't use items, whereas dispelling VoP isn't possible.

magic9mushroom
2009-04-29, 03:11 PM
Is there some game benefit to taking a vow of poverty?

Oh hell yes. +8/+6/+4/+2 to four ability scores, 11 free (exalted) feats, don't need to eat, drink or breathe, +15 to AC (+3 deflection, +2 natural armour, +10 exalted), damage reduction 10/evil, all weapons are +5, energy resistance 15, +3 to all saves, undetectable alignment and immune to mindreading, freedom of movement, faster healing, endure elements. This gained gradually from level 1-20.


Other then that, there would have to be some creative compelling reasons for an evil character to want to impoverished.

"I have heard claims by other assassins at their prowess. Enchanted item on top of enchanted item. Where is the challenge in that? Where is the fun? Where is the thrill of killing a man with his on silvered spoon? I'd like to see anyone of them achieve THAT."

Actually, that would make a fun character.

The idea I was thinking of was a power-obsessed mage, that cared not for worldly possessions because they consider them insignificant and beneath their pride.

sonofzeal
2009-04-29, 03:22 PM
VoP is also justifiable for a few builds in that the bonuses carry over when in Polymorph-type situations where you don't have your normal gear anyway, and because it's the only way I know to get a +8 enhancement bonus pre-epic.

The Rose Dragon
2009-04-29, 03:26 PM
Which is why you take the feat that lets you know if your about to commit an evil act and tell your DM your, always using it. Every action.

I always thought that would come with Sacred Vow, but no, you have to take an extra feat for that.

Silly WotC.

Also, I assume you'll change the Exalted feats gained to Vile feats (Deformity feats are especially fitting, if not exactly powerful or... evil).

magic9mushroom
2009-04-29, 03:34 PM
I'd like to point out that there is a LG Paladin demon. So everyone can have good qualities.

What?

Demons, devils and yugoloths are literally made out of concentrated evil. For them to be good is a contradiction. This is why fiends spontaneously wither away in the presence of the Pact Primeval.

hamishspence
2009-04-29, 03:38 PM
its possible to remove a subtype by magic. Absent that, it is a bit iffy, but there are examples- Fall-From-Grace in Planescape Torment is the classic example.

Ruleswise, the least evil of the fiends (for the given definition of fiend as Extraplanar Outsider with Evil Subtype) is the cambion in Expedition to the Demonweb pits- half-fiend, half-planetouched (typically tiefling) 10% are "Neutral or Good".

The Rose Dragon
2009-04-29, 03:43 PM
What?

Demons, devils and yugoloths are literally made out of concentrated evil. For them to be good is a contradiction. This is why fiends spontaneously wither away in the presence of the Pact Primeval.

Well, tell that to WotC. A demon paladin with Evil and Chaotic subtypes.

I'm not making this up (though I wish I was).

Abyss is also hardly concentrated evil, which is what demons are born out of.

Xefas
2009-04-29, 03:51 PM
What?

Demons, devils and yugoloths are literally made out of concentrated evil. For them to be good is a contradiction. This is why fiends spontaneously wither away in the presence of the Pact Primeval.

It's kind of like at the end of the Superman movie where he lifts an entire island made of Kryptonite without being effected by it. Some designer said "Hey, lets throw out all the fluff up to this point and make something ridiculously stupid. That's sure to be interesting."

Also, the Pact Primeval is an artifact of pure Law, so it wouldn't hurt all 'Fiends' considering Devils are 'Fiends' and are composed of Law.

Yuki Akuma
2009-04-29, 04:14 PM
"Always Chaotic Evil" actually means "99.9% are Chaotic Evil".

This means that roughly 0.0125% of all succubi are Lawful Good.

There is an infinite number of succubi.

Therefore, there is an infinite number of Lawful Good succubi.

(They're still composed of pure elemental Chaos and Evil - which is why they're hurt by Smite Evil even though they're Lawful Good. That's what alignment subtypes are for.)

Chronos
2009-04-29, 04:18 PM
Really, it seems to me that if the Vows are going to be associated with any alignment, it should be Law, not Good. But unfortunately WotC hasn't published any books on Law or Chaos as a character theme, the way they have with Good and Evil.

The Rose Dragon
2009-04-29, 04:18 PM
This means that roughly 0.0125% of all succubi are Lawful Good.

Even though statistics informs us that the samples that deviate from the norm greater than others are smaller, the point remains. There are infinite demons of any alignment.

I'd be inclined to say "except for Retrievers", since they are constructs, not outsiders.

Are Retrievers even considered demons?

SoD
2009-04-29, 04:35 PM
SnowballMan, SoD is working on an NE Shapeshifter Druid with VoP at the minute (the idea behind the character is that he really enjoys killing things, but he hates civilisation to the point where he doesn't want to have material possessions).

Work in progress. It'll be put up soon, refluffed, and renamed as well. I'm thinking call it an oath instead of a vow. Just because.

sonofzeal
2009-04-29, 04:39 PM
Note that the LG Demon was (probably) the result of a "Sanctify The Wicked" spell, a high level spell designed specifically to change the subject's alignment like that.

hamishspence
2009-04-29, 04:46 PM
the description of Sanctified Creatures (result of the spell) states the the template cannot be applied to Outsiders with the Evil subtype.

Same with the use of Diplomacy to change alignment.

Given that there are several "evil angels" in WOTC sources, including Elder Evils, which usually retain the Good subtype, I think its a case of "nothing is completely irredeemable/corruptible".

the succubus paladin is on the WOTC website rather than in any of the books.

monty
2009-04-29, 04:49 PM
Note that the LG Demon was (probably) the result of a "Sanctify The Wicked" spell, a high level spell designed specifically to change the subject's alignment like that.

Which also doesn't work on creatures with the Evil subtype, if I remember right.

Edit: Ninja!

Arachu
2009-04-29, 04:53 PM
You could always houserule a law-based vow of poverty.

hamishspence
2009-04-29, 04:55 PM
yes- given the evidence that even evil subtype + outsider type is not enough to fix alignment- cambions- 10% Not Evil, I'd go for

"the spells don't work, but the creature itself has free will and can choose a new path"

The Rose Dragon
2009-04-29, 04:55 PM
Note that the LG Demon was (probably) the result of a "Sanctify The Wicked" spell, a high level spell designed specifically to change the subject's alignment like that.

Nope, she just fell in love with a paladin.

The_Snark
2009-04-29, 05:00 PM
To those of you scoffing at the succubus paladin, I'd like to point out that angels, archons and eladrin are made of pure good, yet nobody ever bats an eye at the concept of fallen angels. There's nothing wrong with the idea of a redeemed demon, in theory. They're formed from ideas, and ideas can change.

Of course, since the very stuff that forms their body is changing, I'm of the opinion that their physical forms and abilities ought to shift over time too. Eventually, they should lose the inappropriate subtypes and gain the proper ones.

Back on topic, I've actually played a similar character (Shapeshift druid with a disdain for the crutches of magic and civilization); it worked pretty well. I've also seen someone play a demon who had a Vow of Poverty re-fluffed as sacrificing magic items to his abyssal patron, which was pretty neat (I believe the exalted feats were replaced with a slower progression of Abyssal Heritage feats, but vile feats could work too).

Starbuck_II
2009-04-29, 05:38 PM
Nope, she just fell in love with a paladin.

The power of Love, should be a tv trope if it isn't. Very histortical /mythelogical.

Jothki
2009-04-29, 05:43 PM
Also, what about Good-based deformities and the like? Isn't that the essence of self-sacrifice, giving up your normal form to serve some greater purpose?

magic9mushroom
2009-04-29, 05:46 PM
It's kind of like at the end of the Superman movie where he lifts an entire island made of Kryptonite without being effected by it. Some designer said "Hey, lets throw out all the fluff up to this point and make something ridiculously stupid. That's sure to be interesting."

Also, the Pact Primeval is an artifact of pure Law, so it wouldn't hurt all 'Fiends' considering Devils are 'Fiends' and are composed of Law.

No, the Pact Primeval is an artifact of pure Law, Evil and Good. Yes, this makes no sense, and that's why you go insane if you detect its aura (only temporarily though).

It does hurt Devils, it's stated to give a 1 rank demotion per 6 hours. I don't actually know its effect on other fiends, but presumably it would be worse, seeing as they aren't Lawful either.

The Rose Dragon
2009-04-29, 05:51 PM
The power of Love, should be a tv trope if it isn't. Very histortical /mythelogical.

It is in TV Tropes. Aptly enough, under the name "the Power of Love".

ChaosDefender24
2009-04-29, 06:38 PM
VoP? Below WBL?

The +8 enhancement bonus alone is worth 640,000 gp...


look everyone i dont know d&d

monty
2009-04-29, 06:49 PM
VoP? Below WBL?

The +8 enhancement bonus alone is worth 640,000 gp...

Only because it's an epic enhancement. At the levels before that, it's behind.

Also, compare to a +6 item and +2 tome (using a tome and then taking VoP is cheesy and really shouldn't be done).

Starbuck_II
2009-04-29, 06:49 PM
VoP? Below WBL?

The +8 enhancement bonus alone is worth 640,000 gp...

Since you can't get magic items: I assume the +8 is equivalent of +6 item + 2 inherent = +8 to a score.

And you need to be level 19 to get +8. By level 19: everyone and his mother could have way more than just +8 from magic.

Now a Psion could get Wish effect from Reality Revision power so a VoP Psion could have more than +8 to a score, but non-Psions can't really...(well Sorcerors technically could)

Dr_Horrible
2009-04-29, 07:22 PM
But unfortunately WotC hasn't published any books on Law or Chaos as a character theme, the way they have with Good and Evil.

You mean fortunately right? At least good and evil sometimes mean something in D&D. Law and Chaos never make sense.

magic9mushroom
2009-04-30, 05:46 AM
Since you can't get magic items: I assume the +8 is equivalent of +6 item + 2 inherent = +8 to a score.

And you need to be level 19 to get +8. By level 19: everyone and his mother could have way more than just +8 from magic.

Now a Psion could get Wish effect from Reality Revision power so a VoP Psion could have more than +8 to a score, but non-Psions can't really...(well Sorcerors technically could)

Remember, VoP can have spells cast on their behalf. If the entire party doesn't have VoP...

Yeah. That +8 bonus is good. Especially since it's not an item and hence can't be gotten rid of if you're captured.

Telonius
2009-04-30, 11:05 AM
Here's (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20050824a) the link to that succubus paladin, by the way. Bottom line, WotC pulled a massive "Rule Zero" on that one. :smallbiggrin:

VoP really isn't that good. Not even for a Monk. (I say this from cruel, cruel experience). A Druid can survive it, but that's because they're a Druid.

The biggest problem with the bonus Exalted feats is that you rapidly run out of good ones. And, as said before, you can get all of the bonuses granted by the class, with wealth left over to spend on other stuff, if you're going by WBL. Vow of Poverty isn't about making awesome characters (that just happen to have no stuff). It's about making a character who's given up worldly possessions, playable.

magic9mushroom
2009-04-30, 12:44 PM
Here's (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20050824a) the link to that succubus paladin, by the way. Bottom line, WotC pulled a massive "Rule Zero" on that one. :smallbiggrin:

VoP really isn't that good. Not even for a Monk. (I say this from cruel, cruel experience). A Druid can survive it, but that's because they're a Druid.

The biggest problem with the bonus Exalted feats is that you rapidly run out of good ones. And, as said before, you can get all of the bonuses granted by the class, with wealth left over to spend on other stuff, if you're going by WBL. Vow of Poverty isn't about making awesome characters (that just happen to have no stuff). It's about making a character who's given up worldly possessions, playable.

You can't get all the stuff it gives without cheese. A VoP character can get +18 to an ability score, while a non-VoP character can only get +16. And four words for your enjoyment: Embrace. The. Dark. Chaos.

Jack_Simth
2009-04-30, 06:00 PM
You can't get all the stuff it gives without cheese. A VoP character can get +18 to an ability score, while a non-VoP character can only get +16. And four words for your enjoyment: Embrace. The. Dark. Chaos.
... okay, I'm kinda curious: How does a Vow of Poverty character rack up a +18 boost to an ability score?

magic9mushroom
2009-04-30, 06:49 PM
... okay, I'm kinda curious: How does a Vow of Poverty character rack up a +18 boost to an ability score?

+5 level boosts, +5 inherent, +8 enhancement from VoP. Simple.

Flickerdart
2009-04-30, 06:56 PM
You can't get all the stuff it gives without cheese. A VoP character can get +18 to an ability score, while a non-VoP character can only get +16. And four words for your enjoyment: Embrace. The. Dark. Chaos.
Wouldn't you lose Exalted status (and hence all the feats) from Embracing something called the Dark Chaos?

streakster
2009-04-30, 06:59 PM
Wouldn't you lose Exalted status (and hence all the feats) from Embracing something called the Dark Chaos?

No, you're just friends. (I have no idead on the real answer.)

olentu
2009-04-30, 07:10 PM
Wouldn't you lose Exalted status (and hence all the feats) from Embracing something called the Dark Chaos?

If I am remembering correctly the spells are more aligned with chaos then evil. On the other hand I seem to remember that some passage in the BOED saying something about how doing something that would cause you to loose exalted feats shifts the universe towards evil and thus might be grounds for loss of exalted status but I am going from memory so I might be thinking of something else.

Jack_Simth
2009-04-30, 07:24 PM
Wouldn't you lose Exalted status (and hence all the feats) from Embracing something called the Dark Chaos?
No, because it's a Chaotic spell, not an Evil one. For a small XP cost, it trades any feat for one of the chaos feats, irrespective of the source - so you can turn your exalted feats into chaotic feats. There's a mirror spell called Shun the Dark Chaos, which does the opposite - for a small XP cost, it turns a chaos feat into any other feat for which you qualify.

Technically, there's no limitation on the return trip - that is, if you turn a Fighter Bonus feat into a Chaos feat with Embrace the Dark Chaos, and later change the feat away from a Chaos feat with Shun the Dark Chaos, there's no requirement, by RAW, that it become a Fighter Bonus feat. So with the "chaos shuffle", as it's commonly called, you can trade any feat for any feat for which you qualify - those high numbers of feats you get from the Vow of Poverty? Poof - for a bit of XP, they're no longer Exalted feats, but regular feats. Even better - you don't have to have qualified for it at the time you gained the feat originally. So if a Sorcerer-18 wants a feat that requires, say, 6th level spells, the Sorcerer-18 with both Shun the Dark Chaos and Embrace the Dark Chaos to trade out his first level feat for it and a bit of XP.

Myrmex
2009-04-30, 08:01 PM
VoP is also justifiable for a few builds in that the bonuses carry over when in Polymorph-type situations where you don't have your normal gear anyway, and because it's the only way I know to get a +8 enhancement bonus pre-epic.

Except for persisted spells like Divine Agility or Bite of the Were-Gouda.

magic9mushroom
2009-04-30, 08:49 PM
No, because it's a Chaotic spell, not an Evil one. For a small XP cost, it trades any feat for one of the chaos feats, irrespective of the source - so you can turn your exalted feats into chaotic feats. There's a mirror spell called Shun the Dark Chaos, which does the opposite - for a small XP cost, it turns a chaos feat into any other feat for which you qualify.

Technically, there's no limitation on the return trip - that is, if you turn a Fighter Bonus feat into a Chaos feat with Embrace the Dark Chaos, and later change the feat away from a Chaos feat with Shun the Dark Chaos, there's no requirement, by RAW, that it become a Fighter Bonus feat. So with the "chaos shuffle", as it's commonly called, you can trade any feat for any feat for which you qualify - those high numbers of feats you get from the Vow of Poverty? Poof - for a bit of XP, they're no longer Exalted feats, but regular feats. Even better - you don't have to have qualified for it at the time you gained the feat originally. So if a Sorcerer-18 wants a feat that requires, say, 6th level spells, the Sorcerer-18 with both Shun the Dark Chaos and Embrace the Dark Chaos to trade out his first level feat for it and a bit of XP.

Exactly. Or, you can leave them as Abyssal Heritor feats, since now that you can get all 13 they're ridiculously overpowered.

@flickerdart & olentu: Abyssal Heritor feats aren't evil, but they are chaotic; you become chaotic after gaining two of them if you weren't already and don't have the feat Ordered Chaos. It's devil-touched feats that make you lose exalted feats.

Chronos
2009-04-30, 09:36 PM
Of course, even without Vow of Poverty, the chaos shuffle can give you an infinite number of feats, so adding Vow of Poverty on top of it doesn't really make much difference (it just saves you a little bit of XP).

magic9mushroom
2009-04-30, 09:46 PM
Of course, even without Vow of Poverty, the chaos shuffle can give you an infinite number of feats, so adding Vow of Poverty on top of it doesn't really make much difference (it just saves you a little bit of XP).

How can you get infinite feats? I believe that Complete Champion thingymabob got errataed.

Flickerdart
2009-04-30, 10:11 PM
I was aware of the Chaos Shuffle strategy, but not its particulars (such as the alignment of the spells) and thus assumed they were Evil (they don't call it the Fluffy Pink Clouds and Unicorns Chaos).

Couldn't you just be an Elf and shuffle all those proficiencies you get for free?

Lycanthromancer
2009-04-30, 10:13 PM
Think about all of the weapon proficiency feats you get from anything that grants Martial Weapon Proficiency: All.

Taaasty...

monty
2009-04-30, 10:15 PM
Think about all of the weapon proficiency feats you get from anything that grants Martial Weapon Proficiency: All.

Taaasty...

Those aren't feats, though; you just get proficiency with them. Elves, on the other hand, specifically say "...as bonus feats."

Frosty
2009-04-30, 10:45 PM
Couldn't you just be an Elf and shuffle all those proficiencies you get for free?

By RAW, yes. By most DM rulings, hell no.

The_Snark
2009-04-30, 10:58 PM
How can you get infinite feats? I believe that Complete Champion thingymabob got errataed.

I believe it involves swearing your soul to an elder evil, which gives you 1 vile feat (plus 1 for every 5 HD you have) from a given list. If you stop serving the elder evil, you lose the vile feats... but it specifies vile feats, so the tweaky interpretation is that you don't have vile feats anymore (because you swapped them), you don't lose anything. Then repeat the process again and again, with a different elder evil.

Or even the same one. Most DMs wouldn't let you do that, but most DMs wouldn't have even let you get that far.

Chronos
2009-04-30, 11:00 PM
How can you get infinite feats? I believe that Complete Champion thingymabob got errataed.I'm not sure which Complete Champion thingymabob you're referring to... The trick I know of doesn't use anything but the chaos shuffle spells, Core, and the Planar Handbook.

You take the feat Planar Touchstone, from Planar Handbook. Choose the Catalogs of Enlightenment as your Touchstone, which gives you the benefit of any one domain granted power of your choice. Choose War, which has as its granted power two bonus feats. Chaos shuffle those two feats into whatever you want, and then change out the Catalogs of Enlightenment (you don't even need to use the chaos spells for this last step, since the Planar Touchstone feat provides its own mechanism for swapping). Then change your planar touchstone back to the Catalogs, gain the War domain feats again, and repeat.

Frosty
2009-04-30, 11:37 PM
I believe it involves swearing your soul to an elder evil, which gives you 1 vile feat (plus 1 for every 5 HD you have) from a given list. If you stop serving the elder evil, you lose the vile feats... but it specifies vile feats, so the tweaky interpretation is that you don't have vile feats anymore (because you swapped them), you don't lose anything. Then repeat the process again and again, with a different elder evil.

Or even the same one. Most DMs wouldn't let you do that, but most DMs wouldn't have even let you get that far.

If you swear allegeance to so many different eldar evils, you're gonna get screwed one way or another.

olentu
2009-04-30, 11:52 PM
@flickerdart & olentu: Abyssal Heritor feats aren't evil, but they are chaotic; you become chaotic after gaining two of them if you weren't already and don't have the feat Ordered Chaos. It's devil-touched feats that make you lose exalted feats.

Yeah like I said I remembered them being more aligned with chaos but since I could not remember them exactly and they might have been aligned with evil I left the possibility open.

Salvonus
2009-05-01, 01:02 AM
No, you're just friends. (I have no idead on the real answer.)

With benefits? :smallamused:

Salvonus
2009-05-01, 01:12 AM
Honestly, the problem with discussions about cheesing out the VoP is that it's kinda contrary to the spirit of the feat. It's just supposed to be a roleplaying-centric feat... I'm not sure why people are obsessed with exploiting it. :smalltongue: Since Exalted feats have stringent roleplaying requirements, losing them is a bit of an open issue. If you're effectively rejecting the heartfelt gifts of the Forces of Good (tm), that's not very Exalted of you. When you have a fundamentally roleplaying-based prerequisite to a feat, I'm not sure that arguments about "RAW" are particularly applicable, beyond (of course) as an optimisation thought exercise.

It's not their fault that their gifts happen to, for the most part, suck. :smallfrown: Blame the developers, not the Celestials! :smalltongue:

Telonius
2009-05-01, 11:15 AM
You can't get all the stuff it gives without cheese. A VoP character can get +18 to an ability score, while a non-VoP character can only get +16. And four words for your enjoyment: Embrace. The. Dark. Chaos.

... which also can't be done without cheese. Leaving aside the inherent cheesiness of the Chaos Shuffle, you'll lose out on several Exalted feats if you wait until you can afford a +5 Tome to take VoP.

theMycon
2009-05-01, 11:40 AM
... which also can't be done without cheese. Leaving aside the inherent cheesiness of the Chaos Shuffle, you'll lose out on several Exalted feats if you wait until you can afford a +5 Tome to take VoP.

Last night, I ran through my head all the RAW ways to get +5 inherent, that I could think of, and still be exalted.

Two involved spending enough money on yourself to build a flying, mithril ship, that's insulated for air and temperature, shoots lions, tigers, fireballs, and bears forever, produces tasty food and drink for 15 people a day forever, cleans and repairs itself, and still folds up where you can fit it in your pocket. I don't think it's exactly in the spirit of VoP, but if you did both and donated the ship to any church, I think the relevant god(s) would make an exception.

One involved gating in a pair of noble genies/chain gating solars, which is cheaper, but still involves enough money to feed a city for a couple years.

The last involved being a level 19+sorc, or level 20 wiz, with at least 28 Cha/Int (for a bonus level 9 spell slot), so you can wish yourself 5 times. You recover the lost XP about the same time everyone else goes epic, but this is the only way I can figure to do it without violating the spirit of VoP or massive DM fiat.

Volkov
2009-05-01, 02:01 PM
The vow of poverty, so overpowered, and it has rules almost as annoying as mounted combat rules, attack of opportunity rules, and psionic attack/defense modes.

magic9mushroom
2009-05-01, 02:22 PM
Last night, I ran through my head all the RAW ways to get +5 inherent, that I could think of, and still be exalted.

Two involved spending enough money on yourself to build a flying, mithril ship, that's insulated for air and temperature, shoots lions, tigers, fireballs, and bears forever, produces tasty food and drink for 15 people a day forever, cleans and repairs itself, and still folds up where you can fit it in your pocket. I don't think it's exactly in the spirit of VoP, but if you did both and donated the ship to any church, I think the relevant god(s) would make an exception.

One involved gating in a pair of noble genies/chain gating solars, which is cheaper, but still involves enough money to feed a city for a couple years.

The last involved being a level 19+sorc, or level 20 wiz, with at least 28 Cha/Int (for a bonus level 9 spell slot), so you can wish yourself 5 times. You recover the lost XP about the same time everyone else goes epic, but this is the only way I can figure to do it without violating the spirit of VoP or massive DM fiat.

Alternative way. Go to Sigil, find a Pun-Pun, and diplomance him for it.

magic9mushroom
2009-05-01, 02:28 PM
I'm not sure which Complete Champion thingymabob you're referring to... The trick I know of doesn't use anything but the chaos shuffle spells, Core, and the Planar Handbook.

You take the feat Planar Touchstone, from Planar Handbook. Choose the Catalogs of Enlightenment as your Touchstone, which gives you the benefit of any one domain granted power of your choice. Choose War, which has as its granted power two bonus feats. Chaos shuffle those two feats into whatever you want, and then change out the Catalogs of Enlightenment (you don't even need to use the chaos spells for this last step, since the Planar Touchstone feat provides its own mechanism for swapping). Then change your planar touchstone back to the Catalogs, gain the War domain feats again, and repeat.

I believe the WotC position on that is that if you don't have the feats to lose, you lose others.

Besides which, there's a big gap between "cheese" and "infinite loop cheese".

monty
2009-05-01, 03:33 PM
The vow of poverty, so overpowered, and it has rules almost as annoying as mounted combat rules, attack of opportunity rules, and psionic attack/defense modes.

I have no idea what the point you're trying to make here is. Please elaborate, and at least attempt to explain your positions.


Alternative way. Go to Sigil, find a Pun-Pun, and diplomance him for it.

Can't Pun-Pun just grant himself the "Immune to Diplomacy" ability, along with everything else?

Jack_Simth
2009-05-01, 05:46 PM
Last night, I ran through my head all the RAW ways to get +5 inherent, that I could think of, and still be exalted.

Two involved spending enough money on yourself to build a flying, mithril ship, that's insulated for air and temperature, shoots lions, tigers, fireballs, and bears forever, produces tasty food and drink for 15 people a day forever, cleans and repairs itself, and still folds up where you can fit it in your pocket. I don't think it's exactly in the spirit of VoP, but if you did both and donated the ship to any church, I think the relevant god(s) would make an exception.

One involved gating in a pair of noble genies/chain gating solars, which is cheaper, but still involves enough money to feed a city for a couple years.

The last involved being a level 19+sorc, or level 20 wiz, with at least 28 Cha/Int (for a bonus level 9 spell slot), so you can wish yourself 5 times. You recover the lost XP about the same time everyone else goes epic, but this is the only way I can figure to do it without violating the spirit of VoP or massive DM fiat.
The Wizard may or may not work, depending on the DM - a spellbook is extremely valuable, and isn't on the list of things explicitly permitted.

Well, that can also be done with a Psion-17 who just got enough XP to be fairly deep into 18th and instead chooses to use it on a Reality Revision, an Erudite-17 who does the same, a Wilder-18 who does the same, and ditto for basically any class that can cast Reality Revision or Wish ... and as a bonus with the Psionic version, you've got a few more levels to play catchup.

A Planar Ally twice for Noble Djinn can get you there, as can Planar Binding twice for the same (use Magic Circle against Chaos for the binding, to avoid casting an Evil spell). This has a fairly low cost if you can cast the spells yourself ... although the implied "do or die" will likely qualify as an evil action for a DM who is on his toes.

You mentioned Chain Gating - but if you have a caster level of 20 or better, theoretically a single Gate spell can net you two Noble Efreeti, to grant you six wishes at once, for the low price of 1,000 xp.

If you have Dominate Monster, you could go to the Plane of Fire and Dominate a few Efreeti. No evil spells involved - while you are forcing another creature to bend to your will, you're doing so to evil creatures. This may or may not break alignment - check with your DM. You can also do the same as a Cleric-20 with the Fire domain (Command two ten hit dice Efreeti). The Improved Turning feat can let you do this as a Cleric-19.

Basically, any method of getting Wishes will work, provided it doesn't cost cash, and you don't have to hire the spells out.

theMycon
2009-05-01, 06:06 PM
Alternative way. Go to Sigil, find a Pun-Pun, and diplomance him for it.

That is actually so... uniquely, creatively brilliant, that I feel like I have to congratulate you. It even stands a better chance than getting VoP after you buy the tome. And it has zero cost to anyone.

I'm astounded.


A Planar Ally twice for Noble Djinn can get you there, as can Planar Binding twice for the same (use Magic Circle against Chaos for the binding, to avoid casting an Evil spell). This has a fairly low cost if you can cast the spells yourself ... although the implied "do or die" will likely qualify as an evil action for a DM who is on his toes.

You mentioned Chain Gating - but if you have a caster level of 20 or better, theoretically a single Gate spell can net you two Noble Efreeti, to grant you six wishes at once, for the low price of 1,000 xp.
These are what I meant by the "only costs enough money to feed a city for a few years." Planar Ally implies a cost of 100g * hd of creature involved, or rather half that because it's non-hazardous. Gate mentioned the same cost, and I failed to notice the line about "no cost for a single service under 1 round/caster level." Which, probably, "pretend like I've captured you for five rounds, wherein you use all three alloted wishes" should count.

Jack_Simth
2009-05-01, 07:42 PM
That is actually so... uniquely, creatively brilliant, that I feel like I have to congratulate you. It even stands a better chance than getting VoP after you buy the tome. And it has zero cost to anyone.

I'm astounded.


These are what I meant by the "only costs enough money to feed a city for a few years." Planar Ally implies a cost of 100g * hd of creature involved, or rather half that because it's non-hazardous.
Ah, but there's a nifty in there:
"This payment can take a variety of forms, from donating gold or magic items to an allied temple, to a gift given directly to the creature, to some other action on your part that matches the creature’s alignment and goals." a service is fairly explicitly permitted.

The big problem with Planar Ally is that as written, it's the DM that chooses what responds (as it is sent by the deity), not the player. Planar Binding works, and doesn't cost a cent, but the implied threat might fall under "evil act", even though you can pull it off without a single spell that has the [Evil] descriptor, and you ultimately don't hurt the Called creature.

Gate mentioned the same cost, and I failed to notice the line about "no cost for a single service under 1 round/caster level." Which, probably, "pretend like I've captured you for five rounds, wherein you use all three alloted wishes" should count.
Yeah, Gate is the safest way to pull it off, but there are plenty of others, many of which cost less.

Salvonus
2009-05-01, 08:03 PM
Alternative way. Go to Sigil, find a Pun-Pun, and diplomance him for it.

A Pun-Pun would know that you're coming and what you'd try to do. He'd have a myriad of ways to ignore you (you can't use diplomacy if he's not there), unless he actually wanted to help. Furthermore, he could always just use his infinite diplomacy and infinite initiative to diplomance you up to fanatic as a full-round action before you even had the chance to say a word.

Besides, if you could actually pull that off, why on earth wouldn't you just ask Pun-Pun to help you "win" D&D? :smallwink: