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Luegene Cards
2009-05-01, 02:26 AM
Okay, here's the deal: I'm usually our group's DM because no one else wants to do it, but right now one of my buddies is running a level 15 game in Limbo, and to be entirely honest, I wanna win really bad. I've been in a couple of games with him before, and he's a good DM, but he pulls some really unfair stuff sometimes, generally along the lines of 'I really like this enemy so you can't beat him nyah nyah'. We beat this particular uber-badguy, but he had a rope trick we couldn't see (I have no idea why, I had true sight on), and he's promised we're gonna fight him again. Here's the stats on our party and most of what I can discern about the baddie:

Other player - Level 15 Monk w/ vow of poverty, peace, etc; he's got a huge attack bonus, an AC of 51 unbuffed, and deals about thirty nonlethal damage per hit.

Me: Wizard 7/ Fatespinner 2 / Initiate of Seven Veils 6; I've got 150 hp, saves of about 20, chosen school abjuration with illusion and necromancy excluded. Focus and greater focus abjuration, sudden maximize, spell pen and greater spell pen. I've got 27 int, great initiative, a rod of lesser quicken, some assorted wands, and the rest of my cash is caught up in +stats and saves gear.

Bad guy: Some exalted barbarian, frenzied berserker, mageslayer, avatar combo. He's got 23 character levels, a CR of about 30, deathless rage, SR of 35 because of some broken artifact, huge saves, a little over 400 hp, two everdancing weapons +3 (I dispelled and disintegrated one, forcecaged and stole the other, and will be selling it for at least 100k gold, can't count on much more), a bunch of potions, and the ability to significantly alter reality (probably wish, maybe something more broken) once in a great while, which he did not use against us recently. We won and may be leveling to 16, in which case I plan on continuing in the seven veils class.

We're in a huge city in Limbo, so I can definitely buy and learn any spells that aren't illusion or necromancy, more magic items, and buff spells/potions/ointments for the monk, but I'm about out of ideas. The only thing I can think of that could possibly shut this guy down is to suppress his divine grace with dispel magic (can you suppress supernatural abilities?) and buff up my spell pen, or maybe drop him in an anti-magic field filled with prismatic walls and the monk, who loses almost nothing in anti-magic. There's gotta be a way to kill this thing. We're playing the next session tomorrow night, so if anyone has ideas on how to smoke this dude, my wizard is completely willing to kill him after the monk knocks him out. The monk will be disappointed in me, but I am willing to accept that. Thanks in advance for anything you can toss my way!

quick_comment
2009-05-01, 02:35 AM
MDJ or Chained Dispel followed by chained shatter. Now he is a barbarian with no items.

Alternatively, just cast forcecage on him and shoot him full of arrows. Rage or not, he cant break forcecage. If he uses his wish to disintegrate it, just cast another. You can kill him with true strike + enervation.

Or take the exp hit and use a scroll of gate to summon a prismatic dragon or something.

Relax, you are a mid-level wizard. There are no barbarians that you cant kill.

If you have access to BoVD, you can use death by thorns. On a successful save, he is still stunned for 1 round. Get around the SR via any of the spells that give +10 to your next SR check.

Luegene Cards
2009-05-01, 02:41 AM
I don't think he'll give me access to MDJ, and he also claims he can shatter force walls for some reason (I wish I new his exact build, because this dude is very carefully drawn up from all sorts of errata I'm not too familiar with). The DM is definitely going to make a lot of rulings against my favor - he already disallowed use of truespell because he realized that I could smoke his barb if I had it. Could I coup him in a single round of stun, though? If so, we just gotta halve his health and I can shoot him with power word stun... I dunno, I'm worried he's gonna come up with some new ridiculous ability by the next time we fight him.

kamikasei
2009-05-01, 02:44 AM
There's gotta be a way to kill this thing.

No, there hasn't. There's every chance, based on your description, that if you do come up with something you can use to take down the enemy as built, the DM will fiat it away and you'll lose anyway.

quick_comment
2009-05-01, 02:47 AM
I don't think he'll give me access to MDJ, and he also claims he can shatter force walls for some reason (I wish I new his exact build, because this dude is very carefully drawn up from all sorts of errata I'm not too familiar with). The DM is definitely going to make a lot of rulings against my favor - he already disallowed use of truespell because he realized that I could smoke his barb if I had it. Could I coup him in a single round of stun, though? If so, we just gotta halve his health and I can shoot him with power word stun... I dunno, I'm worried he's gonna come up with some new ridiculous ability by the next time we fight him.

Power Word, Petrify in Races of Dragon (or Dragon Magic? I can never tell them apart) gives you the ability to turn him to stone if he has less than 200 hp, no save.

Luegene Cards
2009-05-01, 02:50 AM
Yeah, that's entirely possible, but he's not completely unreasonable, just skewing some calls in his favor. I think if I can come up with a fairly solid way for killing him - like somehow getting him unconscious, below zero hp, and disintegrating the body - he'll call the guy dead. Honestly, the only rule I think he's legitimately broken is that my true sight didn't trump his rope trick. We beat him once, I just really, really, really wanna kill the guy, and it's going to take dropping a whole lot on him all at once and killing him before this avatar-barbarian can consciously alter the situation.

SolkaTruesilver
2009-05-01, 02:53 AM
You know, there is the possibility of not going head-along the ennemy. HAve you considered trying to outwit him, outmanoeuver, etc...?

Just because you have a monster in front of you don't mean that charging headfirst and trying to kill it is the best way.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-05-01, 03:13 AM
Find out his name and race. Plane Shift to any plane that's neither his home plane nor the plane he's currently on. Cast Gate to summon him (unique individual is not the same as unique being), and tell him, "Do nothing but dismiss any and all contingencies and protective magics, remove all your gear, and lay face down helplessly." He must obey for one round per caster level, there is absolutely no way he could possibly avoid the effect. He cannot do anything to try to free himself from your control due to your command for him to do nothing but what was specifically commanded. Any contingencies he may have will be dismissed without triggering. He must obey including not attacking if he begins to frenzy.

You'll be able to CDG him every round for the rest of the duration, during which he's sure to die. It would be a good idea to Draconic Polymorph yourself into a Firbolg, Bull's Strength, cast Heroics to gain Power Attack, and have a large x4 crit weapon with Greater Magic Weapon on it all prior to casting the Gate. At level 16 you can Power Attack two handed for -7 to hit, your Strength will be 48 for +28 two-handed damage, with a +4 large scythe, you'll CDG for 232 damage each hit, for a DC 242 Fort save or he automatically dies, which Deathless Frenzy cannot protect him from.

Just to note, Deathless Frenzy doesn't work as-written. He takes nonlethal damage per round during Frenzy, if his HP falls below 1 and he has at least 1 nonlethal damage on him he'll automatically be knocked unconscious. He may continue Frenzying and be unable to die due to HP damage, but he will not be able to continue fighting.

FoE
2009-05-01, 03:33 AM
If your DM is willing to cheat and flat-out deny your party victory, your build is irrelevant.

Your course of action is clear:

Shoot the DM.

magic9mushroom
2009-05-01, 03:48 AM
Find out his name and race. Plane Shift to any plane that's neither his home plane nor the plane he's currently on. Cast Gate to summon him (unique individual is not the same as unique being), and tell him, "Do nothing but dismiss any and all contingencies and protective magics, remove all your gear, and lay face down helplessly." He must obey for one round per caster level, there is absolutely no way he could possibly avoid the effect. He cannot do anything to try to free himself from your control due to your command for him to do nothing but what was specifically commanded. Any contingencies he may have will be dismissed without triggering. He must obey including not attacking if he begins to frenzy.

You'll be able to CDG him every round for the rest of the duration, during which he's sure to die. It would be a good idea to Draconic Polymorph yourself into a Firbolg, Bull's Strength, cast Heroics to gain Power Attack, and have a large x4 crit weapon with Greater Magic Weapon on it all prior to casting the Gate. At level 16 you can Power Attack two handed for -7 to hit, your Strength will be 48 for +28 two-handed damage, with a +4 large scythe, you'll CDG for 232 damage each hit, for a DC 242 Fort save or he automatically dies, which Deathless Frenzy cannot protect him from.

Doesn't work. Gate doesn't give you the capability to order someone to their deaths. Only summoning effects can do that and you can't actually kill a summoned creature. Planar Binding + traps is the way to go, except too much HD. Besides, the guy doesn't have Gate yet.

My advice - Trap the Soul trigger object, but attempt to disguise what you're doing from the DM so that he doesn't retroactively give the guy Foresight.

Also - Contingency get-me-the-eff-outta-here + Gate scroll to Baator + Limited Wish (Control Winds). Or the same with your veils instead of the Gate.


Just to note, Deathless Frenzy doesn't work as-written. He takes nonlethal damage per round during Frenzy, if his HP falls below 1 and he has at least 1 nonlethal damage on him he'll automatically be knocked unconscious. He may continue Frenzying and be unable to die due to HP damage, but he will not be able to continue fighting.

Did you miss Diehard?

Pronounceable
2009-05-01, 04:06 AM
Resistance is futile. You'll fail. Failure is the only option.

Unless you get OOC and smack some sense into the DM...

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-05-01, 04:11 AM
Gate allows you to order him to make himself helpless, he doesn't even see you performing the first CDG. You're not sending him over a cliff, you could simply order him to fall asleep, which he would immediately carry out until you order him to wake up.

Diehard has absolutely no effect on how a character is affected by nonlethal damage (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/injuryandDeath.htm#nonlethalDamage): "When your nonlethal damage exceeds your current hit points, you fall unconscious. While unconscious, you are helpless." He gets reduced below 0 hp but Deathless Frenzy and Diehard stop him from dying regardless of how low he gets. Frenzy inflicts nonlethal damage on him every round of its duration, with 0 or fewer HP and 1 or more nonlethal damage he is unconscious and helpless. Diehard and Deathless Frenzy only work on actual HP damage, not nonlethal damage. Otherwise a Troll with Endurance and Diehard would effectively be outright immune to any damage but acid and fire, but luckily this is not the case. The Monk could probably solo this boss, pummel him into unconsciousness, strip him of all his gear, and leave him. The other character can put him in a bag of holding, then dump out his suffocated corpse a week later.

Learnedguy
2009-05-01, 04:24 AM
Scorching ray should do about 12d6 damage at that level. Throw those dice at the DM until he understands the concept of sportsmanship.

Talic
2009-05-01, 04:56 AM
Ok. You wanna do this? You gotta trap him to prevent the fiat.

Unfortunately, you banned necromancy. Typically, Evocation/Enchantment is a better ban, as you can gain access to evocation via Shadow Evocation.

If you hadn't, this is what I would have suggested.

First, hit the big bad with a Fell Drain Magic missile. Easy enough, takes 5d4+5 and a negative level.

What does this establish? That he's vulnerable to Negative Levels.

See, if you started with the Maximized, Empowered, Split, Twinned Enervate, he'd fiat it as "Death Ward".

When you start with the lesser effect, he lets it go through, and establishes the vulnerability.

Now, you must scour books for something different. As he has good saves, you can't rely on saves. His touch AC is probably low, so touch attacks are ok.

Abjuration is a strong point of yours, so let's go with the creative spells.
Can shatter Wall of Force? Ok, there's an Epic PrC that can do that. Dude still can't move over 50% in web. Can't move very far in Solid Fog either.

Other useful tricks? Illusion. If you can get it from Spell Compendium, Superior Invisibility is awesome stuff.

If you meet the prerequisites, consider Archmage for Arcane Reach. Getting an Irresistable Dance for 4 rounds would give your monk some time to work. Refresh as necessary, perhaps.

Bottom line, only way you're gonna get it is to give the GM a choice between blatantly shielding the boss with Armor wrought of the Finest Plot (never mind the holes, you can't hit them)... and letting you do your thing.

RavKal
2009-05-01, 06:58 AM
He can't use enervation people, he doesn't have Necromancy.

Lots of acid. And fire.

bosssmiley
2009-05-01, 07:40 AM
Okay, here's the deal: I'm usually our group's DM because no one else wants to do it, but right now one of my buddies is running a level 15 game in Limbo, and to be entirely honest, I wanna win really bad. I've been in a couple of games with him before, and he's a good DM, but he pulls some really unfair stuff sometimes, generally along the lines of 'I really like this enemy so you can't beat him nyah nyah'.

Don't mind the *thud* noises. That's just me beating me head against the wall.

*sigh*

Cheese vs. cheese battle? (link related (http://www.flickr.com/photos/95944935@N00/508150033/))
Antimagic field, disjunction, greater dispel magic, debuffs, summons out the wazoo, and some gated/planar ally wish-capable heavies who owe you a favour should be a good starting point.

(aside: what's the betting the DM is using Divine Ranks cheese with his pet NPC?)

Tyrmatt
2009-05-01, 08:05 AM
The DM wants to cheat, then use the most cheat-like spell possible: Wish with the following wording:
"I wish that <Insert Name Here>'s soul be utterly destroyed, preventing any form of resurrection, rebirth or coming back from death, even by use of Wish, wish-like powers or Miracle. No exceptions, no outs. This means you.".

No soul means his body instantly dies as there's no life force to sustain it. No soul means there is no way for him to be reconstituted by any magical means ever. It's also not classed as a death effect this way so he can't be warded against it.

To be put quite simply, "You ain't got nothin' if you ain't got soul".

Of course, the DM won't allow this to happen, but it will highlight the point you want to make: The DM is cheating and he needs to stop just because he likes his pet BBEG. It's the scenario that the Batman wizard is unbeatable...except by a sniper who can pop him with a single headshot. You need to be outside the box, preferably inside your command bunker, linking up to the ion cannon targeting system :)

You could also just gas him with hydrogen cyanide. Bypasses spell resistance, it's not a poison you can become immune to and it can be made in quantity by any alchemist.I don't care how badass someone is, when every enzyme and cell in your body is clogged up by an indigestable toxin, you have to die.

A DM of mine learned this in a custom campaign where my character was supposed to be a skillmonkey who's previous career was as a chemist. He was horrifed at the way I killed a group of enemies by knocking them out with ether and then calmly slitting their throats. To be fair, so were my party. I'd never so much as fired a weapon or been anything but negotiator and crafter to the party and had always opted for the non-violent methods to solve every scenario.
In retrospect, it was pretty non-violent...no struggling, no screaming...

In short: either call the DM out on his cheating or use the most absurd method you can come across. This is one situation where fighting the honourable fight just won't work.

kemmotar
2009-05-01, 08:14 AM
well, on the DM's defence, maybe he just didn't account well enough for the party's power. If he didn't cheat the BBEG would be the dead and the campaign over...so he may be doing it so the campaign doesn't end prematurely...though that may not be the right way to do it..

Ofc he may just be an "bad" DM and just doesn't want his pet BBEG to die.

On trap the soul, if he's cheating he'll do it here too because trap the soul would just be too easy...he might say he makes his save, you can't take his soul because of his awesomeness, divine rank or just raises as a sentient soul less new type of undead....

Just gate in a 1 HD kobold wizard with a sarrukh familiar, have him do the pun pun trick, have him kill the baddie...

SolkaTruesilver
2009-05-01, 08:25 AM
I don't think escalating the cheese war is going to solve problems.

As I said, is the GM putting the foe in front of you just to proove his own uber awesomness, or it's merely a dangerous plot point?

If it's a plot point, avoid it. Outmanoeuver it. You don't necessarely have to kill it.

'Cause if you kill it, the GM will simply come up with something more convoluted, 'cause you treathen his statute of Alpha Player.

Worira
2009-05-01, 09:27 AM
The DM wants to cheat, then use the most cheat-like spell possible: Wish with the following wording:
"I wish that <Insert Name Here>'s soul be utterly destroyed, preventing any form of resurrection, rebirth or coming back from death, even by use of Wish, wish-like powers or Miracle. No exceptions, no outs. This means you.".

No soul means his body instantly dies as there's no life force to sustain it. No soul means there is no way for him to be reconstituted by any magical means ever. It's also not classed as a death effect this way so he can't be warded against it.

To be put quite simply, "You ain't got nothin' if you ain't got soul".


And then he makes his save. And the partial fulfillment clause comes into play.

streakster
2009-05-01, 10:02 AM
Step one: Acquire one hole, portable. If possible, use the Enveloping Pit from the MiC - cheaper.

Step two - Use a quickened spell to slap it on the the ceiling above him.

Step three - Reverse Gravity! No save, No SR, No problems.

Step four - Using a buddy, or say a familiar, or a summon, remove the hole from the surface.

Step Five - Find a way to irretrieveably destroy both hole and occupant. Or keep it around and gloat. Your call.

Lycanthromancer
2009-05-01, 10:43 AM
Major creation can create absolute masses of plutonium.

What happens if you pile enough plutonium in one spot that it reaches critical mass?

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g111/Lycanthromancer/massive-nuclear-explosion.jpg

Just get together with another couple of spellcasters that can cast teleport without error (like your team's cleric, and maybe some old spellcaster college buddies), create masses of plutonium at disparate spots, then simultaneously teleport all of it into the guy's bedroom. (According to Wikipedia, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plutonium) "a kilogram of Pu-239 can produce an explosion equivalent to 20,000 tons of TNT.") Alternately, get a resilient sphere and find a way to cast major creation outside of it, such that the explosion won't do much to you, but it'll leave a crater so big that even the plotholes are destroyed.

Alternately, try the locate city bomb. Or use shrink item on a bunch of massively voluminous boulders packed up in a bag of holding, get above his head, dump them all out, and have someone standing by, ready to call out the command word. Deal enough damage in a single shot (in this case, a few hundred thousand d6s worth), and he should be dead before Frenzy has a chance to take effect.

quick_comment
2009-05-01, 11:35 AM
Major creation can create absolute masses of plutonium.

What happens if you pile enough plutonium in one spot that it reaches critical mass?


In DnD, nothing, because there is no evidence not only for nuclear reactions, but for the entire atomic theory of matter.

streakster
2009-05-01, 12:43 PM
Wait. Speaking of creation - Contact Poison. Gallons of it.

"Make 1500 saves for me, would you?"

lsfreak
2009-05-01, 12:43 PM
Not really true. The D&D world is assumed by default to be ruled by the same principles that govern our world, simply with the addition of magic. By the 12th century, Muslim philsophers/alchemists/whatever predicted nuclear fission.

However, a lot of plutonium won't do anything. Plutonium doesn't explode without extreme pressure. Critical mass is only the level at which a minor nuclear reaction occurs, enough to release radiation. To trigger a sustainable nuclear explosion, you need incredible amounts of sustained pressure (hence the focusing lenses on a nuclear weapon, not to mention the extra D-T gas mixture to help sustain the reaction).

Zim
2009-05-01, 12:55 PM
Cast blink and mirror image on yourself and hit him with a fell draining metamagiced spell that does not allow SR and save is for half at best (sound burst, kelgore's fire bolt, orb spells). Do that enough times, and he's done.

nightwyrm
2009-05-01, 12:58 PM
Get a new DM.

You can beat a NPC, you can't beat the DM.

chiasaur11
2009-05-01, 01:03 PM
If your DM is willing to cheat and flat-out deny your party victory, your build is irrelevant.

Your course of action is clear:

Shoot the DM.

That's insane.

Reasonable people don't shoot DMs!

They light them on fire. What better way is there to celebrate reasonable gas prices?

Fan
2009-05-01, 01:04 PM
On the major creation note, I say just do the same thing with Francium, the DM wont be expecting OMGWTFBBQ radiation (The save on that must be like DC 50.... This stuff kills people for HUNDREDS of years.), and fire.... It is the most reactive element in known existance for a reason after all. Failing that, Resilent Sphere, body outside body (through a staff), Major creation (anti matter) watch with pop corn as the DMPC is defeated by the holy wonders of Matter Annhilation (not just being transformed from one state into another, but virtual annhilation.)... You win, and the DM can't really do anything about it, as it's explosion would be so massive that a Reflex save would be in the DC's of the THOUSANDS, and so much of it that a will save would have to be made at least 30 times with half effects for each.

lsfreak
2009-05-01, 01:39 PM
The problem with these major creation ideas is that it has to be something the character knows about, not the player. Otherwise I'd just say create 16 cubic feet of anti-neutronium; using an extremely conservative .1% efficiency and a conservative density for the neutronium, the resulting explosion would be roughly 10 quintillion tons of TNT (making the huge assumption data gained from nuclear weapons tests can by applied to such an explosion, if such an explosion happened on Jupiter, we would suffer 3rd degree burns on earth.) Trick him into your own demiplane, boom, it's over.

Fan
2009-05-01, 01:48 PM
The problem with these major creation ideas is that it has to be something the character knows about, not the player. Otherwise I'd just say create 16 cubic feet of anti-neutronium; using an extremely conservative .1% efficiency and a conservative density for the neutronium, the resulting explosion would be roughly 10 quintillion tons of TNT (making the huge assumption data gained from nuclear weapons tests can by applied to such an explosion, if such an explosion happened on Jupiter, we would suffer 3rd degree burns on earth.) Trick him into your own demiplane, boom, it's over.

Actually, the very word Atom comes from the Greek word Atomos (meaning not cut), as does alot of the more basic elements on the periodic table, so it's perfectly within character to know these sorts of things if your character is a Wizard (and hence Scholar) to know Bronze Age knowledge in a Iron Age setting.

Zanatos777
2009-05-01, 02:07 PM
I still don't understand why the you are fighting each other. One of your allies is exalted and so is the barbarian. He by definition cannot be a BBEG. Otherwise try to figure out if he can take ability damage/drain. If he's and avatar as you theorize the answer is no but it...actually it could hurt to find out.

Still curious why you are fighting though.

magic9mushroom
2009-05-01, 02:35 PM
Gate allows you to order him to make himself helpless, he doesn't even see you performing the first CDG. You're not sending him over a cliff, you could simply order him to fall asleep, which he would immediately carry out until you order him to wake up.

Diehard has absolutely no effect on how a character is affected by nonlethal damage (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/injuryandDeath.htm#nonlethalDamage): "When your nonlethal damage exceeds your current hit points, you fall unconscious. While unconscious, you are helpless." He gets reduced below 0 hp but Deathless Frenzy and Diehard stop him from dying regardless of how low he gets. Frenzy inflicts nonlethal damage on him every round of its duration, with 0 or fewer HP and 1 or more nonlethal damage he is unconscious and helpless. Diehard and Deathless Frenzy only work on actual HP damage, not nonlethal damage. Otherwise a Troll with Endurance and Diehard would effectively be outright immune to any damage but acid and fire, but luckily this is not the case. The Monk could probably solo this boss, pummel him into unconsciousness, strip him of all his gear, and leave him. The other character can put him in a bag of holding, then dump out his suffocated corpse a week later.

Even if you have 0 nonlethal damage, your nonlethal damage is greater than your HP if your HP is negative. Diehard keeps you conscious if you're on negative HP, so why wouldn't it keep you conscious if you're on negative HP with nonlethal damage? In both cases your nonlethal damage > your HP.

Saying that nonlethal damage gets around Diehard is stupid and makes utterly no sense.

Hence, this DM, who's also on the side of the character with it, won't allow it.

Signmaker
2009-05-01, 02:43 PM
Actually, the very word Atom comes from the Greek word Atomos (meaning not cut), as does alot of the more basic elements on the periodic table, so it's perfectly within character to know these sorts of things if your character is a Wizard (and hence Scholar) to know Bronze Age knowledge in a Iron Age setting.

Having just failed a course in general chemistry, I'm going to have to disagree with your hypothesis. While the greeks were quite the knowledgeable people, just because their language was responsible for naming basic elements does not mean they knew about them. Even Dalton, who lived in the 18th-19th century, could not properly formulate the atomic formula for water (He thought it was HO). Additionally, most of these heavier and radioactive substances that most people are suggesting weren't even discovered and isolated until the 20th century, so to say that even a wizard would know of them could be considered quite a massive stretch.

But that's enough of that. Topic-wise, I don't think you've got a snowball's chance of beating that barbarian. If your DM is giving random justifications for being able to trump your latest exploit, that's just the DM Mary Sueing the situation.

At the worst, you'll come up with the most convoluted multi-angled assault, only to find out that hey, the Barbarian doesn't care. In which case you'll likely get fed up with your DM, and tensions will flare. Personally, I think a decent option is to tell your DM "Hey, I don't mind losing. That being said, do you mind toning it down?" Try to get things back in to a neutral state, before this becomes a Player vs. DM situation, and I don't mean in game.

magic9mushroom
2009-05-01, 02:51 PM
With all this Major Creation talk, why not just go Major Creation (black hole) and be done with it?

Or Major Creation (time-machine wormhole)?

I think a fun way of solving this problem would be the following:

Go to Sigil.

Find a 100th level Cleric.

Diplomance him.

Blasphemy.

Goodbye Barbarian.

Fan
2009-05-01, 02:57 PM
Having just failed a course in general chemistry, I'm going to have to disagree with your hypothesis. While the greeks were quite the knowledgeable people, just because their language was responsible for naming basic elements does not mean they knew about them. Even Dalton, who lived in the 18th-19th century, could not properly formulate the atomic formula for water (He thought it was HO). Additionally, most of these heavier and radioactive substances that most people are suggesting weren't even discovered and isolated until the 20th century, so to say that even a wizard would know of them could be considered quite a massive stretch.

But that's enough of that. Topic-wise, I don't think you've got a snowball's chance of beating that barbarian. If your DM is giving random justifications for being able to trump your latest exploit, that's just the DM Mary Sueing the situation.

At the worst, you'll come up with the most convoluted multi-angled assault, only to find out that hey, the Barbarian doesn't care. In which case you'll likely get fed up with your DM, and tensions will flare. Personally, I think a decent option is to tell your DM "Hey, I don't mind losing. That being said, do you mind toning it down?" Try to get things back in to a neutral state, before this becomes a Player vs. DM situation, and I don't mean in game.

Actually, being abit of a chemistry, and history buff myself, I know that while they got the formula's wrong chemically, they still had the basic idea down, which is more than enough to know that "This is uranium, it tends to melt our flesh with some weird waves... LETS TOSS IT AT THE ENEMY!" :smalltongue:
Also, Archimedes had his own periodic table buddeh, it was incomplete, and incorrect in places, but he was VERY close in atomic number/mass.

magic9mushroom
2009-05-01, 03:03 PM
Actually, being abit of a chemistry, and history buff myself, I know that while they got the formula's wrong chemically, they still had the basic idea down, which is more than enough to know that "This is uranium, it tends to melt our flesh with some weird waves... LETS TOSS IT AT THE ENEMY!" :smalltongue:
Also, Archimedes had his own periodic table buddeh, it was incomplete, and incorrect in places, but he was VERY close in atomic number/mass.

Still, you wouldn't know the nuclear physics required to build an atomic bomb. I guess you could do it by trial and error...

Fan
2009-05-01, 03:07 PM
No you wouldn't, I never implied a atomic bomb, ever. I implied droping ass loads of francium on top of the guy, and watching anti matter blow his face up. The second on is tenuous at best I know, but the first one is entirely possible.

Zeful
2009-05-01, 03:14 PM
I second the Trap the Soul idea. But you can hide the buying of the gem and researching of power by using Soul Bind as a scapegoat. Then use the contact trigger set up. Then give it to the guy with the best bluff check in the group, and then lie your ass off, but lie about the lie. Choose your words carefully so when you roll the Bluff check and the DM invariably declares success, the impression left by the Bluff is the real lie. This of course requires the bluffing character not to be in on the Trap The Soul gambit. Then have the Bluffer simply toss him the gem with the phrase "Hold on to this, I'll take it back from your cold, dead hands later." or something similar.

It's kinda meta, but should work.

Luegene Cards
2009-05-01, 03:36 PM
Thanks for all the help! I do feel like I've made him out to be a slightly worse DM than he actually is; I wrote this after last night's game while raging about the situation. It's really unfair, and it's totally Mary Sue, but yeah, I think with this many potential no-save insta-deaths that follow the rules to the letter, it'll clue him in on the reality of D&D: it's a completely unfair game if either the players or the DM use the full depth and breadth of the rules and errata to abuse the system. If either side does it, the other can too. It's mutually assured destruction. I honestly wouldn't have been mad if he said, "This guy's an avatar of an insane god, so he can do crazy stuff. He's part of the danger of my Limbo," but he didn't, he tried to pass off that a rope trick while invisible would get past a monk with a passive spot of 36 and a wizard with true sight.

So yeah, I think if I present him my side of the situation, it'll be a lot better. I had no idea there were *that* many ways to abuse people to death in this game. Ahaha, I figured I'd learn most of them by asking this forum, though. Major creation Francium? That's pure genius. And I'm not about to let a DM say I couldn't do it when my character's got a buffed intellect of 27. I mean, I gotta make Einstein look like a toddler with a head injury. But yeah, I think this should take care of my situation, but I'd still love to hear about more crazy/brilliantly simple ideas for complete obliteration of everything.

Thanks again, guys, this has been fun enough to outweigh the embarrassment of my nerdraging.

kemmotar
2009-05-01, 03:38 PM
Although I'm not a chem buff having studied greek philosophy a bit and being greek I can say the following:

The atom was "invented" by heracletus saying that if you cut matter, assuming the ability to cut infestimal pieces of matter, there will be a point where you can no longer cut it despite the assumed ability to cut anything. Thus the atom is thought to be the basis for all matter in the universe and in fact the idea of the atom was borrowed and is in fact incorrect in it's usage as it implies that the atom is the building block of everything. However, as we now know it's not.

Also, on a linguistic note, atom comes from atomo which is a- meaning cannot and temno (τέμνω) which is the verb to cut, or more accurately, to divide into two. Thus the suffix -tomo is the gender neutral ajective form of the noun tomi (τομή) of the verb.

I don't think ancient greeks theorized about what would happen when the atom was cut since by definition it couldn't be cut. Though I think there was someone that doubted that there was such a thing as an atom, ie the building block of matter that could not be divided further, as in another philosophical movement of the time infinite was good and finite was bad and they therefore theorized about the infinity of everything and thus there could be someone that disagreed with heracletus.

Now, about Archimedes, I haven't heard about any periodic table though I wouldn't be surprised as I've heard that, supposedly, Archimedes also invented the laser by using a series of lenses to focus sunlight on the persian ships' sails to burn them.

That is the philosophical side of things from which ancient greeks usually operated and everything had a philosophical side. Though I might not know some more scientific texts.

Finally, on topic. I'd have to agree with those that say that a player vs DM war, in game or not, is not a good thing. You can never really win in D&D where a DM can simply say "the gods of the far realm did not like what you did, time rewinds and the spell you used didn't work for some reason" or "because of the power amassed in the party the big bang is recreated, you explode, die and take the multiverse with you. The gods set off to build a new one."

Just tell him, we don't like the way the campaign is going because of this and this reason. Usually that does the trick. If the DM is the only one having fun then the game's not going very well. It should be fun for everyone on the table.

Fan
2009-05-01, 03:49 PM
Thanks for all the help! I do feel like I've made him out to be a slightly worse DM than he actually is; I wrote this after last night's game while raging about the situation. It's really unfair, and it's totally Mary Sue, but yeah, I think with this many potential no-save insta-deaths that follow the rules to the letter, it'll clue him in on the reality of D&D: it's a completely unfair game if either the players or the DM use the full depth and breadth of the rules and errata to abuse the system. If either side does it, the other can too. It's mutually assured destruction. I honestly wouldn't have been mad if he said, "This guy's an avatar of an insane god, so he can do crazy stuff. He's part of the danger of my Limbo," but he didn't, he tried to pass off that a rope trick while invisible would get past a monk with a passive spot of 36 and a wizard with true sight.

So yeah, I think if I present him my side of the situation, it'll be a lot better. I had no idea there were *that* many ways to abuse people to death in this game. Ahaha, I figured I'd learn most of them by asking this forum, though. Major creation Francium? That's pure genius. And I'm not about to let a DM say I couldn't do it when my character's got a buffed intellect of 27. I mean, I gotta make Einstein look like a toddler with a head injury. But yeah, I think this should take care of my situation, but I'd still love to hear about more crazy/brilliantly simple ideas for complete obliteration of everything.

Thanks again, guys, this has been fun enough to outweigh the embarrassment of my nerdraging.

Ah, you want some more crazy/brilliant ideas? Man have you come to the right place. I'd like to introduce you to the locate city bomb (Assuming you can cast 6th level spells, and since this is level 13 if I remember right you can cast 7th for the other meta magick's nessesscary.)

Locate City bomb (WARNING! Feat intensive!)
Locate city is a 4th level spell that sends out (at least this is how I imagine it), waves of harmless energy to locate a city within 1 mile per caster level. You apply the cold spell meta magick (Frost Burn.), and now it does 1d6 cold damage in a radius of 1 mile/ caster level, now you apply energy subsitution (Sonic) to this to make it 1d6 sonic damage in a 13 miles radius, now here's the kicker. Apply Explosive spell to it (making it a 7th level spell with the cold spell, and Explosive spell.), to push them to the edge of the spells radius, that is 68640 feet, or 6846 D6 of falling damage, and since this is limbo he wont be stopped by any objects for awhile.

Lycanthromancer
2009-05-01, 05:25 PM
You could get a scroll of gate (the cheap version, without the XP cost), and ready an action to cast it while he's charging.

Send him to the positive energy plane, fire off an Extended dimensional anchor at him through the portal, then allow the portal to close.

He'll heal up, then start accruing temporary hp. Once he reaches his critical maximum, he'll have to make constantly-escalating Fortitude saves until he explodes in a shower of energy and gore. Since it's not hp damage (it's Death By Healing), it won't set off his Frenzy, and it'll kill him regardless of resistances (since only undead can get positive energy resistance, and even then only with a feat).

Alternately, get a cohort. Make him a commoner/dread necromancer with the Infested with Chickens flaw. There's a spell that gives you an aura that pretty much instakills low-HD creatures, and turns them into zombies, and a feat that causes the undead you make to explode in a flash of negative energy that bestows negative levels. Have him start Quickdrawing a bunch of (soon-undead) chickens from his pockets, and throwing them hard enough to deal damage to the chickens. *BOOM.* Negative-level city. He should be reduced to a wight in no time.

I forget the names of the spell and feat, but IIRC, this is something that was worked out some time ago for explodey undead-chicken fun.

[edit] Here, I believe. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4377398&postcount=17)

Godskook
2009-05-01, 05:44 PM
You could get a scroll of gate (the cheap version, without the XP cost), and ready an action to cast it while he's charging.

Send him to the positive energy plane, fire off an Extended dimensional anchor at him through the portal, then allow the portal to close.

He'll heal up, then start accruing temporary hp. Once he reaches his critical maximum, he'll have to make constantly-escalating Fortitude saves until he explodes in a shower of energy and gore. Since it's not hp damage (it's Death By Healing), it won't set off his Frenzy, and it'll kill him regardless of resistances (since only undead can get positive energy resistance, and even then only with a feat).

What. The. Hell?????

Seriously, as someone who has no fricking clue about the planes, I ask, where are you getting this from? It amuses me to no end and I must know more.

Lycanthromancer
2009-05-01, 05:49 PM
What. The. Hell?????

Seriously, as someone who has no fricking clue about the planes, I ask, where are you getting this from? It amuses me to no end and I must know more.DMG, pg 158:


Despite the beneficial effects of the plane, it is one of the most hostile of the Inner Planes. An unprotected character on this plane swells with power as positive energy is force-fed into her. Then, her mortal frame unable to contain that power, she immolates as if she were a small planet caught at the edge of a supernova.

It's further expounded upon on pg 149 under the Positive-Dominant entry, and in the Manual of the Planes.

MotP: Best. Supplement. Ever.

Kylarra
2009-05-01, 05:51 PM
What. The. Hell?????

Seriously, as someone who has no fricking clue about the planes, I ask, where are you getting this from? It amuses me to no end and I must know more.You can get the basic information here
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/planes.htm

fluff:

The Positive Energy Plane has no surface and is akin to the Elemental Plane of Air with its wide-open nature. However, every bit of this plane glows brightly with innate power. This power is dangerous to mortal forms, which are not made to handle it. Despite the beneficial effects of the plane, it is one of the most hostile of the Inner Planes. An unprotected character on this plane swells with power as positive energy is force-fed into her. Then, her mortal frame unable to contain that power, she immolates as if she were a small planet caught at the edge of a supernova. Visits to the Positive Energy Plane are brief, and even then travelers must be heavily protected.

Crunch:

A creature on a major positive-dominant plane must make a DC 15 Fortitude save to avoid being blinded for 10 rounds by the brilliance of the surroundings. Simply being on the plane grants fast healing 5 as an extraordinary ability. In addition, those at full hit points gain 5 additional temporary hit points per round. These temporary hit points fade 1d20 rounds after the creature leaves the major positive-dominant plane. However, a creature must make a DC 20 Fortitude save each round that its temporary hit points exceed its normal hit point total. Failing the saving throw results in the creature exploding in a riot of energy, killing it.


edit: ninja'd

Maristyl
2009-05-01, 06:12 PM
First, you can't create anything particularly exotic with major creation when it comes to things such as plutonium, uranium or francium. Greeks didn't know about Plutonium, it's a element found in trace amounts in nature so small that without modern scientific equipment it's impossible to detect, the same goes for Francium. Theorizing the existence of something similar to those two is not the same as having specific knowledge, which is at best what the greeks did, does not give your character enough knowledge to create it. Not only that but knowing of it, or researching to find it yourself would be a knowledge check, something like knowledge (chemistry), at 27 intelligence and you put all your ranks into it at the level up you might be getting (I assuming you have a headband +6 in there) you get 7 skill points (5 from int + 2 from class) giving you a 15 in the knowledge. A 9th level character can match that easily, so if it was that easy to discover those two elements it would have been done. Now discovering uranium is a whole different story. Too bad uranium is useless to you.

You want Uranium-235, the fissile material that goes into nuclear weapons and has a decent amount of radiation to it, too bad naturally occurring uranium (the stuff that a character might know of) is something like 98.8% Uranium-238 and 1.2% Uranium-235, but there's no way of a D&D to know that. The best you could do would be to give him heavy metal poisoning, but you could do that with lead. To give you an example modern anti-tank kinetic penetrators are made of Uranium-238, which is handle routinely by unprotected personnel, if there is a health risk from simple exposure then it is not immediate. Regardless it is still a poison and thus super high saves wins (and the save DC is determined by the DM, so it'll be low by DM fiat).

Now, on to one of my favorite game breaking ideas.

First you need to cast Forcecage (in it's solid form) on the place vaguely near the location or person that is annoying you and permanency it (If you can permanency wall of force you can do it for forcecage). Then you go to another plane and cast gate so that the exit on your target plane is flush with one of the walls of your permanent forcecage, this needs to be permanencied as well (there are numerous examples of portals that lead from one plane to another, which are permanent Gates, so it can be done). Next you need to get as many decanters of endless water as you're willing to buy (this speeds up the process though it is theoretically possible with only 1) and use major creation to put them in a device that allows you to hold all of them as well as block the entire gateway (and a little bit beyond the edges). Next create a permanent prismatic wall to block off the gate's entrance and affix your device to the gate (since something you, as the caster, is wielding can freely pass through the prismatic wall it won't suffer the negative effects of doing so). Now turn on the water, you need have something behind you bracing the device so since it won't throw you back and you don't have to hold the water back. A nice iron wall with struts holding the device in place should do well, by the time the water has enough pressure to break anything on your side it'll count as a range weapon, thus the first layer of the prismatic wall becomes impermeable. Thus water can only flow in, not out, not only that but it can, by definition flow past the edges of the prismatic wall since that's what is stopping the water, and thus must be added to water contents of the other side no matter the pressure in there.

This is where it gets fun, assuming that you spent 99K/100K of that gold on 11 decanters of endless water you are now adding 330 gallons of water to a 100 cubic foot space every 6 seconds. 330 gallons of water weighs ~2754 pounds, so that means after 1 day you've added 19,829 tons of water to a 1000 cubic foot area. If you use the ideal gas law to calculate then you have an internal temperature of 11,640,628 degree Fahrenheit which is 6,467,271 kelvin, or about half the temperature of the core of the sun and substantially hotter then the surface (the surface being a mere 5,800 kelvin). After the second day your little fusing ball of plasma is ~13,000,000 degrees kelvin, with the average temp of the suns core being ~13,500,000 kelvin you now at 100 cubic feet of the center of the sun. So after a day or two return to the place you left your nuke, use blindsight or blindsense, forcecage will not stop the light from this, which is substantially brighter then the sun now and will burn out your eyes. Cast contingency planeshift with the contingency being that you cast disintegrate, then use disintegrate to destroy your wall while you plane shift away to safety. This will destroy the barbarian.

SeraphRainy
2009-05-01, 06:27 PM
I hate to defend this dm because it seems like he realy did pull something to keep this npc alive.

But it was probably that he realy didnt need this npc to die here due to plot. Now a good DM would have done one of two things. A) pull you aside and say I realy underestimated your strengths and cant have this guy die right now but good job. Because that admits to the player whats going on and does a much better job of not pissing them off. OR B) he planed out some obscure escape route or a hidden one like using some obfuscative spell to hide the rope trick. (However in such cases its good to tell your pcs so as not to make em think your cheesing.)

I recently had my party almost kill my BBEG but he was able to soak an arrow in the face because hes a kind of Daemon. (Its homebrewed) But he was dissapointed that his should have been lethal stike didnt take the guy for a dirt nap. So I made sure to let the guy know and reward him for his effort.

So don't go too hard on your dm if hes new maybe talk to him as a nice guy and tell him to have make the guy either able to be killed, not come that close to the party or just have a better character escape route. And do it nicely so he doesnt kill your char. out of spite. (Perhaps just tell him your trying to help a new dm?)

AslanCross
2009-05-01, 06:36 PM
I really think you've got to talk to the DM about this. He will just DM Fiat this guy back over and over again.

quick_comment
2009-05-01, 06:39 PM
If you use the ideal gas law .

HALT

You cannot use the ideal gas law for liquids. You cant even use it for high pressure gases. Gases are only ideal in the limit of low pressure.

Maristyl
2009-05-01, 06:48 PM
HALT

You cannot use the ideal gas law for liquids. You cant even use it for high pressure gases. Gases are only ideal in the limit of low pressure.

Okay, then what should I be using? Would it make my calculation off by several order of magnitude? Also it doesn't really matter, after the second day your cage has a density greater then that of the core of the sun, even if the rest following that is wrong (the stuff using the ideal gas law) it is still a fusing ball of plasma.

Heh, for a few seconds all I could think was "Halt, hammer time".

Godskook
2009-05-01, 06:53 PM
MotP: Best. Supplement. Ever.

Wow. That is something else.


Cast contingency planeshift with the contingency being that you cast disintegrate, then use disintegrate to destroy your wall while you plane shift away to safety. This will destroy the barbarian.

Something tells me that this will cause some problems with the Vow of Peace monk, even if killing the barbarian wouldn't.....

quick_comment
2009-05-01, 07:09 PM
Okay, then what should I be using? Would it make my calculation off by several order of magnitude? Also it doesn't really matter, after the second day your cage has a density greater then that of the core of the sun, even if the rest following that is wrong (the stuff using the ideal gas law) it is still a fusing ball of plasma.

Heh, for a few seconds all I could think was "Halt, hammer time".


The benedict-webb-rubin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benedict-Webb-Rubin) equation of state is sometimes used for liquids. But no equation of state is going to tell you what happens when you have infinite pressure hoses shooting water into an impossibly strong enclosure. You will start to get ionization and fusion, and at that point, you need to break out your supercomputer and use relativistic magnetohydrodynamics simulations.

Signmaker
2009-05-01, 07:26 PM
magnetohydrodynamics

GitP word of the day.

Dervag
2009-05-01, 07:46 PM
Major creation can create absolute masses of plutonium.

What happens if you pile enough plutonium in one spot that it reaches critical mass?We already know that the D&D universe is nonrelativistic. Absent relativity, there's no reason to expect nuclear reactions to perform as advertised. Or, for that matter, for antimatter to exist.

There might be atoms in D&D, but there's no compelling reason to expect them to have nuclei. They could just as easily be pure blocks of essential elemental material. Or they could follow Thomson's "plum pudding" model (which would let us explain electric charge and current in mathematical terms, and more or less let us preserve Maxwell's laws). In either case, there would be atoms but no nuclear reactions.
_______


The problem with these major creation ideas is that it has to be something the character knows about, not the player. Otherwise I'd just say create 16 cubic feet of anti-neutronium; using an extremely conservative .1% efficiency and a conservative density for the neutronium, the resulting explosion would be roughly 10 quintillion tons of TNT (making the huge assumption data gained from nuclear weapons tests can by applied to such an explosion, if such an explosion happened on Jupiter, we would suffer 3rd degree burns on earth.) Trick him into your own demiplane, boom, it's over.Likewise, no relativity (and we know there's no relativity in D&D) means no relativistic quantum mechanics. Which means no Dirac equation, and therefore no antimatter. Or at least no reason to expect and require antimatter to exist.

Likewise, there's no reason to expect neutronium to exist in D&D. If atoms are made out of pure essences or a Thomson pudding, then you can't create superdense materials by piling baryons on top of each other. No neutronium (and, for that matter, no neutrons).
______


Actually, the very word Atom comes from the Greek word Atomos (meaning not cut), as does alot of the more basic elements on the periodic table, so it's perfectly within character to know these sorts of things if your character is a Wizard (and hence Scholar) to know Bronze Age knowledge in a Iron Age setting.But your wizard won't know about plutonium, which doesn't exist in nature and can't be created using iron age technology. The word "atom" existed, but it didn't mean what we understand it to mean. It just meant "uncuttable minimum-sized bit of matter." Believing that matter is made of atoms doesn't tell you anything about chemical elements, let alone allow you to discover the ones that aren't found in nature in pure form.

I mean for crying out loud, Democritus talked about atoms of air, water, earth, and fire! Atomic theory is about ten times older than our modern understanding of chemical elements, but it was nothing but philosophical mumblings until modern chemistry emerged.

For that matter, by Democritus's standards the things we call "atoms" aren't atoms at all, because they're made up of parts.
_______


Even Dalton, who lived in the 18th-19th century, could not properly formulate the atomic formula for water (He thought it was HO).Not quite fair; he just didn't distinguish between HO and H2O. In Dalton's notation, the reasoning was: water is made of hydrogen and oxygen atoms. Therefore, HO.

It didn't take long for someone to actually do the electrolysis and realize that when he split water, he ended up with twice as much hydrogen as oxygen on his hands. But until then, no one knew what the ratio was, and there was no point in specifying the ratio in your formula if you didn't have any data on it.

And Dalton didn't.
______


With all this Major Creation talk, why not just go Major Creation (black hole) and be done with it? Or Major Creation (time-machine wormhole)?Black holes and wormholes aren't made out of matter, and therefore cannot be made by Creation spells.

Come to think of it, since neutronium is neither a vegetable, a type of stone, a crystal, a gem, or a "base," "precious," or "rare" metal, I don't think you can make it either.

But at the very least, the spell description is quite clear about only making substances made of baryonic matter. I might allow antimatter metals (don't think I would, though, because I know where the Dirac equation comes from). But I sure wouldn't allow warped spacetime constructs. You want one of those, come up with your own spell, thank you very much.
______


Actually, being abit of a chemistry, and history buff myself, I know that while they got the formula's wrong chemically, they still had the basic idea down, which is more than enough to know that "This is uranium, it tends to melt our flesh with some weird waves... LETS TOSS IT AT THE ENEMY!" :smalltongue:By itself, uranium isn't flesh-melting at all. Uranium really isn't very radioactive, you see. Some of its decay products a few steps down the chain are vicious, but chemically refined uranium is routinely used as radiation shielding.

Of course, it so happens that uranium is incendiary, especially when powdered, but that's a whole different story.


Also, Archimedes had his own periodic table buddeh, it was incomplete, and incorrect in places, but he was VERY close in atomic number/mass.Can you show me a copy?

Seriously, I'm always interested in Archimedes; I consider him to be the founding hero of my profession.
_______


Now, about Archimedes, I haven't heard about any periodic table though I wouldn't be surprised as I've heard that, supposedly, Archimedes also invented the laser by using a series of lenses to focus sunlight on the persian ships' sails to burn them....
I truly hate to break this to you, but there is a large difference between a laser and a parabolic reflector. The parabolic reflector supposedly used by Archimedes on the Roman fleet during the siege of Syracuse was not a laser; it was more on the order of holding a giant weaponized magnifying glass over a very large ant hill.

Archimedes' achievements were stunning compared to the amount of knowledge about the underlying nature of the universe people had before him. But he was stuck in a world where people didn't know anything to speak of about said nature. There were several generations' more giants to go before the stuff we think of as "modern" even appeared on the horizon.


That is the philosophical side of things from which ancient greeks usually operated and everything had a philosophical side. Though I might not know some more scientific texts.No, you're totally right. The Greeks didn't draw a distinction between physics and philosophy, and almost all their well-known thinkers (with, I suspect, the exception of Archimedes) were philosophers first and physicists a distant second. They were mechanically sophisticated, but that didn't always translate into a grasp of the theoretical basis for their crafts.


Just tell him, we don't like the way the campaign is going because of this and this reason. Usually that does the trick. If the DM is the only one having fun then the game's not going very well. It should be fun for everyone on the table.Seconded.
______


First, you can't create anything particularly exotic with major creation when it comes to things such as plutonium, uranium or francium. Greeks didn't know about Plutonium, it's a element found in trace amounts in nature so small that without modern scientific equipment it's impossible to detect, the same goes for Francium.However, it is a rare metal; if I had in-character reason to believe that a wizard knew about it I would be sorely tempted to allow it. Or at least I'd be hard-pressed to justify not allowing it.

The catch, of course, is that D&D nuclear physics can't work the same way real-world nuclear physics does. So as far as I'm concerned, D&D plutonium need not be fissile, even if you could compress it without precision engineered shaped charges. Likewise, D&D francium need not be radioactive. :smallbiggrin:


This is where it gets fun, assuming that you spent 99K/100K of that gold on 11 decanters of endless water you are now adding 330 gallons of water to a 100 cubic foot space every 6 seconds. 330 gallons of water weighs ~2754 pounds, so that means after 1 day you've added 19,829 tons of water to a 1000 cubic foot area. If you use the ideal gas law to calculate then you have an internal temperature of 11,640,628 degree Fahrenheit which is 6,467,271 kelvin, or about half the temperature of the core of the sun and substantially hotter then the surface (the surface being a mere 5,800 kelvin).Problems:
- Liquid water isn't an ideal gas. Therefore, the ideal gas law breaks down as a model for describing liquid water; you have to use the van der Waals corrections (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_der_Waals_equation) to it at the very least.
- Liquid water cannot be compressed easily. It is only slightly more compressible than solid rock. When you fill the container to the brim with water, you would have to exert nigh-infinite amounts of force to squeeze more water inside.
- Therefore, once the container is full, the back pressure will stop your decanters up, and water will cease to flow through them. Pressure inside the container will balance the water pressure pushing out through the decanter- which can be calculated, but I don't care to do it at the moment.

However, the barbarian will drown anyway, even assuming he isn't crushed by water pressure, so this may be irrelevant.

Also, as I mentioned before, D&D is nonrelativistic, and need not invoke the Standard Model of nuclear physics, so there's no reason to expect nuclear fusion to work.

It's a beautiful idea, and very elegant; it's just that the physics isn't quite there to make it work.
_______


The benedict-webb-rubin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benedict-Webb-Rubin) equation of state is sometimes used for liquids. But no equation of state is going to tell you what happens when you have infinite pressure hoses shooting water into an impossibly strong enclosure. You will start to get ionization and fusion, and at that point, you need to break out your supercomputer and use relativistic magnetohydrodynamics simulations.Which is kind of the point- any environment where that can happen will kill any living creature inside, except possibly some kind of horrible mutant fire/water elemental hybrid or something. Or a sufficiently prepared wizard if Emperor Tippy is around.

DragoonWraith
2009-05-01, 08:17 PM
What is your basis for saying that D&D is non-relativistic? I assume you're not basing that solely on the existence of Teleportation spells, right?

quick_comment
2009-05-01, 08:28 PM
What is your basis for saying that D&D is non-relativistic? I assume you're not basing that solely on the existence of Teleportation spells, right?

It is possible to move relavistically fast via certain abilities and spells, and the rules do not indicate that you should start using lorentz transforms.

Zeful
2009-05-01, 08:51 PM
What is your basis for saying that D&D is non-relativistic? I assume you're not basing that solely on the existence of Teleportation spells, right?

More based on the fact that you can, by RAW, Run faster than the speed of light. (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=993832)

Chronos
2009-05-01, 09:07 PM
magnetohydrodynamics

GitP word of the dayOne of my professors (a solar physicist) went for Halloween a few years ago as an MHD junkie. He wore a signboard that had the equations on the front, and on the back, "Will work for supercomputer time".

And to whomever suggested the Locate City bomb, don't even bother. It's hard enough to kill a normal first-level character with that; this guy has at least a 99.75% chance of surviving it. The problem is that it allows not one but two saving throws, both of them with very low DCs, and if you succeed on either of them, you only take 2 or 4 damage.

Dixieboy
2009-05-01, 09:44 PM
The catgirls!
They're dying :smallfrown:

MURDERERS! :smallfurious:

Roderick_BR
2009-05-01, 10:38 PM
Not really true. The D&D world is assumed by default to be ruled by the same principles that govern our world, simply with the addition of magic. By the 12th century, Muslim philsophers/alchemists/whatever predicted nuclear fission.

However, a lot of plutonium won't do anything. Plutonium doesn't explode without extreme pressure. Critical mass is only the level at which a minor nuclear reaction occurs, enough to release radiation. To trigger a sustainable nuclear explosion, you need incredible amounts of sustained pressure (hence the focusing lenses on a nuclear weapon, not to mention the extra D-T gas mixture to help sustain the reaction).
Predicted, but didn't actually do anything with it. If you can use RL physics in D&D, why bother invading the orc tribe? Make some radioatice stone, throw it into the village, and wait some days for the radioactive poisoning to quick in.
Also, any wizard creating plutoniun would instantly be affected.

Enough off-topic.
To the OP: My usual way of dealing with it is to flat-out complain to the DM that he is shamelessly cheating to save a pet-NPC, and leave. Could not work well for you, but you could try to talk to him.

Crel
2009-05-01, 11:05 PM
Hm... In my opinion, whenever the players have to resort to chemistry and physics to solve a problem, the DM has gone too far. Yeah, this definitely sounds like a DM problem more than a "How to win" problem. I recommend setting up as many of the plans at once as possible, and using them, because if the barbarian's immune to them all, you can pretty much flat out say to him that he's gone too far, or demand to see the rule. A pretty strong possibility is that he's using some homebrew thing that says, "I win." Or, heck, maybe he's pun-pun in disguise.

Overall, my favorite is the nuclear bomb idea. The best mundane-ish idea I have is summon craploads, then twin-split-ray-of-your-choice. My personal favorite is Scorching Ray. Ends up with 32d6 damage in nice little 4d6 amounts. practical against large and small groups of enemies.

Look into the storyline of the campaign deeper, and you might be able to find a fatal weakness, especially if he's based on homebrew. You simply might have missed something. If you can get someone he cares about, get a hostage (and say to the monk that you're not actually going to kill it).

Most importantly, tell us how it all turns out!

lsfreak
2009-05-02, 12:35 AM
Predicted, but didn't actually do anything with it. If you can use RL physics in D&D, why bother invading the orc tribe? Make some radioatice stone, throw it into the village, and wait some days for the radioactive poisoning to quick in.
Also, any wizard creating plutoniun would instantly be affected.
The big thing is, as I pointed out later, your characters actually have to know about it, and not only know about it but know something about how it works (as you pointed out as well, a wizard that knows about nuclear fission possibilities still wouldn't know that plutonium causes radiation). Bringing up nuclear fission was mostly to show that basic physics can't be thrown out just on the basis of "it's medieval." I'd also contest that magic that breaks physics =/= no relativistic physics, considering almost else is assumed to be in line with real-world (beyond magic, giant arthropods being the main problem).

As others have said, you probably are going to have problems with this guy. Banning necromancy really hurt you since Enervation is so powerful. What do you have for metamagic feats? You might be able to get by on metamagicked orbs every round (especially if your DM rules orbs=rays), assuming you can also stay the hell away from him. With Split Ray + Empower, that's roughly 45d6 (157 average) per round, no save no resistance, just a ranged touch attack (and obviously significantly worse if you can't Split Ray them).

For dealing with spell resistance, Create Magic Tattoo (+1CL), Assay Resistance (+10 next spell), and Tomebound Eye of Boccob (+4 to 3 spells as you prepare them) are some good ones. Lower Spell Resistance or Spell Vulnerability would both drop his resistance by 15, but a successful Fort save negates... that's not good. Just using the first three, you'll get a minimum of 31 on your check to overcome spell resistance.

quick_comment
2009-05-02, 01:24 AM
almost else is assumed to be in line with real-world (beyond magic, giant arthropods being the main problem).


No. DnD physics is firmly not anything like we have in real life.

1) The most important principle in all of science, that is, conservation of energy, is constantly broken.

2) No relativity ought to mean
A) No magnetism
B) No quantized spin
Which means
B1) NO MOLECULES. No more pauli exclusion principle, so everything is in the ground state.


DnD physics is either inconsistent or entirely unlike ours. If it is inconsistent, it is STILL entirely unlike ours.

Godskook
2009-05-02, 02:50 AM
DnD physics is either inconsistent or entirely unlike ours. If it is inconsistent, it is STILL entirely unlike ours.

This goes back to that thread a while back, arguing over if magic was natural or not in D&D. If we assume that D&D magic is 'natural', than D&D must work on a different set of physics laws, but if we assume that D&D magic is 'supernatural', I'm pretty sure we can still safely argue the possibility that D&D physics is very much like our own(the light speed example above that I read used magic, and was thus not naturally possible).

olentu
2009-05-02, 02:58 AM
This goes back to that thread a while back, arguing over if magic was natural or not in D&D. If we assume that D&D magic is 'natural', than D&D must work on a different set of physics laws, but if we assume that D&D magic is 'supernatural', I'm pretty sure we can still safely argue the possibility that D&D physics is very much like our own(the light speed example above that I read used magic, and was thus not naturally possible).

If I am remembering correctly then I believe that using a chain of horses one can move the length of the whole chain in one round with a sufficiently high ride check.

quick_comment
2009-05-02, 11:39 AM
This goes back to that thread a while back, arguing over if magic was natural or not in D&D. If we assume that D&D magic is 'natural', than D&D must work on a different set of physics laws, but if we assume that D&D magic is 'supernatural', I'm pretty sure we can still safely argue the possibility that D&D physics is very much like our own(the light speed example above that I read used magic, and was thus not naturally possible).

It exists, it can be studied, it can be experimented on. Magic is natural by definition. Any set of physical laws in DnD must explain magic. Its as if in our world, we decided that fire is supernatural, so our laws dont need to explain it.

Ganurath
2009-05-02, 12:20 PM
Highly Morphic: On a plane with this trait, features of the plane change so frequently that it’s difficult to keep a particular area stable. Such planes may react dramatically to specific spells, sentient thought, or the force of will. Others change for no reason.

You're on Limbo, yes? You have a Wizard and a Monk, yes? Mental ability scores that make a barbarian look like mud, yes? Throw Raw Limbo at him. How much damage would a 40 ft cube of earth deal crashing into a barbarian who's surrounded by raw fire? Heck, how much damage would be dealt if the Monk were to create an Earth Area centered on the barbarian?

Alternatively, use scrying spying to learn his sleep patterns. Wait until he's sleeping, then use repeated castings of Silent Disintergrate on his gear. Be sure to steal the artifact, of course.

Quietus
2009-05-02, 01:51 PM
No. DnD physics is firmly not anything like we have in real life.

1) The most important principle in all of science, that is, conservation of energy, is constantly broken.

2) No relativity ought to mean
A) No magnetism
B) No quantized spin
Which means
B1) NO MOLECULES. No more pauli exclusion principle, so everything is in the ground state.


DnD physics is either inconsistent or entirely unlike ours. If it is inconsistent, it is STILL entirely unlike ours.


Who says there's no conservation of energy? Just because my Wizard tosses a fireball, for example, doesn't mean he's spinning fire out of thin air. Perhaps (in my worlds, at least) he's pulling the ambient energy from the air around him, condensing it into a small bead, and sending it to detonate at a specific point.

Of course, that isn't RAW... RAW is just "I cast fireball, here's 10d6 and a DC 15 save", no explanation of the how or why.




Highly Morphic: On a plane with this trait, features of the plane change so frequently that it’s difficult to keep a particular area stable. Such planes may react dramatically to specific spells, sentient thought, or the force of will. Others change for no reason.

You're on Limbo, yes? You have a Wizard and a Monk, yes? Mental ability scores that make a barbarian look like mud, yes? Throw Raw Limbo at him. How much damage would a 40 ft cube of earth deal crashing into a barbarian who's surrounded by raw fire? Heck, how much damage would be dealt if the Monk were to create an Earth Area centered on the barbarian?

Alternatively, use scrying spying to learn his sleep patterns. Wait until he's sleeping, then use repeated castings of Silent Disintergrate on his gear. Be sure to steal the artifact, of course.

I like the highly morphic point, and that's something that can be known with a simple Knowledge : Planes check. Neat.

quick_comment
2009-05-02, 02:02 PM
Who says there's no conservation of energy? Just because my Wizard tosses a fireball, for example, doesn't mean he's spinning fire out of thin air. Perhaps (in my worlds, at least) he's pulling the ambient energy from the air around him, condensing it into a small bead, and sending it to detonate at a specific point.


In that case we have violation of the 2nd law, and the world is entirely alien to us

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-05-02, 02:18 PM
In that case we have violation of the 2nd law, and the world is entirely alien to usMy preferred explanation is that Fireball is qactually a 20' gate to the Elemental Plane of Fire, which due to the overpressure on the other side can break through diminsional anchors. No thermodynamic problems.

quick_comment
2009-05-02, 02:37 PM
My preferred explanation is that Fireball is qactually a 20' gate to the Elemental Plane of Fire, which due to the overpressure on the other side can break through diminsional anchors. No thermodynamic problems.

That doesnt work according to RAW. If your explanation worked, then dimensional lock would stop fireballs.

DragoonWraith
2009-05-02, 02:41 PM
I think the entire point of magic is that it breaks rules. I don't think examples of magic doing something should negate the possibility of those laws being enforced the rest of the time.

And unbounded run speeds tend to just be poor design decisions on the writers' part. Sometimes crunch shouldn't affect flavor, even if usually the reverse is true.

grautry
2009-05-02, 03:40 PM
Depending on just how broken his saves are, something as simple as this could work:

First, use some save-or-die ability. Preferably one that is the highest level you can cast. If the DM doesn't immediately veto it("is immune") then you're golden(establishing the vulnerability).

Limited Wish to give him -7 to saves and repeat the SoD. This should give you a pretty reasonable chance of succeeding.

Alternatively - since both the monk and the BBEG are Exalted, argue that he should lose his Exalted feats. Do only so when there is not question that you are in the morally right area.

Alternatively, simply talk to the DM and explain that the situation isn't fun. The game isn't about him power tripping and mentally masturbating about the sheer power of the awesomeness of his character.

grautry
2009-05-02, 04:44 PM
Depending on just how broken his saves are, something as simple as this could work:

First, use some save-or-die ability. Preferably one that is the highest level you can cast. If the DM doesn't immediately veto it("is immune") then you're golden(establishing the vulnerability).

Limited Wish to give him -7 to saves and repeat the SoD. This should give you a pretty reasonable chance of succeeding.

Alternatively - since both the monk and the BBEG are Exalted, argue that he should lose his Exalted feats. Do only so when there is not question that you are in the morally right area.

Alternatively, simply talk to the DM and explain that the situation isn't fun. The game isn't about him power tripping and mentally masturbating about the sheer power of the awesomeness of his character.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-05-02, 11:00 PM
The problem I'm having for facing someone who auto-makes saving throws, has NI HP, has Schrodinger's Contingency, and any homebrew ability he wants is that all my ways of winning require either a Cleric or Necromancy.

That said, if you can UMD(maybe the Monk maxed ranks:smallwink:), a CL 27 scroll of Dictum would wipe him out.

One key to any strategy is going to be figuring out what you can about him. That way, you can say rather than 'does a 27 hit?', 'I beat his touch AC, rolling damage'. Figure out his SR, Touch AC, HD, HP, AC, and if possible saves, and you can metagame the DM. Toss in Dimension Lock and you may have a shot.

Myrmex
2009-05-03, 05:12 PM
Can you make touch attacks against this guy?
Cause if you can, you can easily slay him with HP damage.

Get Orb of Fire (SpC). It is a spell, 4th level.
Now you will abuse a feat called Arcane Thesis (PHBII). It applies a -1 to all metamagic for a specific spell. Even for metamagic that has a +0 level adjustment, Arcane Thesis will put that to -1. You choose Orb of Fire for Arcane Thesis.

Offensive feats you want (number in parentheses is the total adjustment after arcane thesis, incantatrix capstone, and easy metamagic):
Maximize (+0), empower (+0), twin (+1), energy admixture (+1), enervate spell (+0)

Feats to mitigate metamagic spell level adjustment (ie, +0 metamagic):
Invisible Spell (Cityscape)
Energy Substitution (acid is typically best)
Easy Metamagic: Maximize (from DR 325)
Easy Metamagic: Empower
Easy Metamagic: Twin Spell
Easy Metamagic: Energy Admixture
Easy Metamagic: Enervate spell

Invisible spell, energy sub, coop spell, and relicguard give you a total of -2 to metamagic adjustments.

Useful metamagic feats:
extend spell, persistent spell

Now, you were currently all set up for being a specialist abjurer. This is unfortunate, but not the end of the world. First, if you are not a gray elf (MM1), retrain your race to be a gray elf, as per the PHB2 rules.

Then rebuild your class levels to go wizard 5/incantatrix 10 (PGtF).

You can get this many feats:
6 from levels
5 from being an elf (two spells, Embrace the Dark Chaos & Shun the Dark Chaos, let you choose ANY feat, including the elf weapon feats for proficiency with weapons, turn them into Abyssal Heritor feats, and then turn them back into any other feat)
4 from Incantatrix (bonus)
1 from wizard 5
2 from flaws (if you use them)
This is 18 total

You have to use one feat to get iron will, to qualify for Incantatrix.

This leaves you with 17 feats, plenty to take all the ones above, even without flaws, and leaves quite a few left over.

Buy a rod of quicken spell.

With you 4th level spell slots, you can prepare Invisible Energy Substituted Maximized Twinned Empowered Enervated Energy Admixtured Orb of Fire. Use your rod of quicken spell to lob another one. They do not allow SR, and no save. They require a touch attack to land, which means you should probably cast a True Strike before hand.

Anyway, your damage will look like this:
15d6 base, maximized to give 90 damage.
Energy Admixture doubles that to 180 damage
Enervate increases that by 150%, to 270 damage.
Then you get +15d6 * 1.5 from empower, average 78 damage, for a total of 348 damage.

And you cast two of these due to twin spell. If you hit with both, that is very likely going to be 700 damage. It also forces two fort saves or be stunned for 1 round.

Incantatrix also lets you make spellcraft checks to persist spells already in effect. So cast all your buffs of rounds/level on yourself at the beginning of the day, make some spellcraft checks, and have them last 24 hours (48 if you use extend).

Now, what if you can't retrain all those levels, or don't want to?
Don't worry!

You can still use the "Chaos Shuffle" trick to reselect your feats for a more watered down version of orbs with really cheap metamagic. You won't be doing a thousand damage a round, but it is still pretty good.

If you do choose to retrain, and go for incantatrix, you can really go for broke:
1. Buy a scroll of Shapechange. Make a caster level check to activate it and put it on yourself. Use the incantatrix ability to make the spell extended & persisted- it now lasts 48 hours. Once per round you can do things like turn into a Noble Djinn (free wishes), Pit Fiend (Free wish), Solar (free wish, cast as a 20th level cleric, awesome stats and spell like abilities), or Chronotryn (get two sets of actions/round and some casting). You can keep your shapechange indefinitely by using the casting of a a Black Ethergaunt, which gets the casting of a 17th level wizard. Just cast shapechange on yourself right before the last shapechange was about to expire, and use your incantatrix ability to persist it again.

2. Use your ninth level spells from any of several sources (being a gold dragon, ethergaunt, solar) to cast Gate. Gate in Solars. Tell them to let you cast a spell on them. You cast Mindrape (BoVD) on them to totally reprogram them as your loyal minions. Have them each cast Gate to gate in more solars. Pretty soon, you will have a solar army.

3. Use polymorph any object to turn yourself into a beholder. Retrain as a beholder mage (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=110228). Win D&D forever.

OverWilliam
2009-05-03, 06:01 PM
Try sneak attack with a ballista.