Why are all black women in the comic sluts?

[A Guy]

Why are all black women in OOTS sluts? Sabine, Belkar's girlfriend, Roy's sister, and just look at how Roy's mother made herself look like in the afterlife... Also, everyone black that is not related to Roy seems to be evil...

Sorry, but this has just been bugging me.

EDIT:Clarified the title.

[Llama231]

Why do all (but one?) of the Asians wear blue?

[TerraImmorits]

...That language is just unacceptable. Really.

[Renegade Paladin]

...That language is just unacceptable. Really.
Not that I agree with his conclusion (the sample size is far too small), but really, why? Where's the blood and broken bones? :smallconfused:

[Talith]

...That language is just unacceptable. Really.

would you have preferred "women of high promiscuity" or "women of low moral fiber with respect to sexual encounters" ?

:-/

[EmeraldPhoenix]

Oh thank god you're talking about the comic. For a second I was about to get all up in your ass with racial and sexual harassment until I read the rest. And I haven't noticed anything, BTW.

[A Guy]

Just one strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0352.html) here, let me find the rest, please.

[ericgrau]

Oh my that title is offensive. I was expecting this to be about something else and an immediate thread lock or deletion. Please add "in the comic" to the title.

[A Guy]

Sorry for the confusion. Edited the title.

[The_Reaper]

Sabine is a shapeshifter, I don't think you can really call her black. And Roy's female family members aren't sluts really. His mom didn't seem any more active than any other young single woman, and his sister may be a tease, but there's no evidence she's sexually active. She may even be a virgin. Unless there's something in a comic page about her I don't remember...:smallconfused:

[FujinAkari]

They aren't.

Sabine isn't a black woman, she's a succubus. Even her "normal" guise isn't that of a black woman! Seen next to Roy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0055.html) she very clearly isn't black, perhaps indian or asian.

Julia isn't a slut, she dresses a bit provocatively (likely due to being a female wizard, look at Mialee) but hasn't ever been seen or implied to be having lots of sex or even dating anyone.

So... really... that leaves Belkar's Bardic Girlfriend... not enough to make any sweeping statements :)

[SavageWombat]

The comic isn't exactly filled with women who are bastions of chastity, no matter their color.

Haley, Celia, Hiljia, several women in Azure city ... and let's not forget the men who are more-than-willing participants.

[Zevox]

So... really... that leaves Belkar's Bardic Girlfriend... not enough to make any sweeping statements :)
And Roy's mom. But even with her, the comic doesn't exactly condemn her behavior. Quite the reverse, the fact that not only is she allowed into Celestia, but that Celestia actually has a public "Tavern of Infinite One-Night Stands," seems to indicate that Rich, or at least the powers-that-be in the OotS world, see absolutely nothing wrong with some sexual promiscuity, such as hers. Which seems to be the problem with the "slut" label - not the sex, but the negative connotations of the word which imply condemnation of the behavior, and that simply does not exist here.

Zevox

[Roderick_BR]

Why are all black women in OOTS sluts? Sabine, Belkar's girlfriend, Roy's sister, and just look at how Roy's mother made herself look like in the afterlife... Also, everyone black that is not related to Roy seems to be evil...

Sorry, but this has just been bugging me.

EDIT:Clarified the title.
Sabine is not human, so she doesn't count, especially cause she's a shapeshifter.
Belkar's girl... ok, yes.
Roy's sister is kinda goth, not slutty (though she could dress better).
And Roy's mother dresses as a young girl, not a slut, if you mean that infinite-stands things, that's valid to everyone in the LG afterlife.

Other than the Belkar's girl, what other black people non-related to Roy appeared?

[DrivinAllNight]

The comic isn't exactly filled with women who are bastions of chastity, no matter their color.

Haley, Celia, Hiljia, several women in Azure city ... and let's not forget the men who are more-than-willing participants.

Thank you, SavageWombat, for negating most of 'A Guy's argument.
Not that some of the colored folks in the strip are not of an amorous nature, but as you have pointed out, so are many of the other colors to be had in the OotSverse.

[David Argall]

Properly it is doubtful that Jenny or Julia qualify as sluts. They might qualify, but the evidence is incomplete at best.
Julia's big thing is being the coolist and sexiest girl at the school. That does not especially mean she puts out, just that the boys want her to. The only lad we know about is rejected, and is not alone. One would be rash to assume virginity, but her partners may well be rather limited, perhaps to the star quarterback or such. She would likely deem making it with a large number of boys as threatening her standing as top cool.
Jenny is pictured as an abused woman, dominated by Belkar's bad boy appeal, and not particularly as free with other men in the past. We can make a claim for virginity if we want to stretch it, but there is at least a little evidence that Jenny is not too free. Origin Haley calls Jenny everybody's favorite... and slut retains its status as the ultimate insult of a woman, one Haley freely uses. It seems unlikely she would so favorably deem someone excessively active.

[Red XIV]

Sabine isn't a black woman, she's a succubus. Even her "normal" guise isn't that of a black woman! Seen next to Roy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0055.html) she very clearly isn't black, perhaps indian or asian.
"Black" encompasses a pretty wide range of skin tones. Some black people have significantly darker skin than others. Though I'll grant that identifying a character's ethnicity in a stick figure comic is a pretty dubious proposition.

[Lunaya]

The comic isn't exactly filled with women who are bastions of chastity, no matter their color.

Haley, Celia, Hiljia, several women in Azure city ... and let's not forget the men who are more-than-willing participants.
Thank you! I love this comic, but it drives me crazy that so few of the women seem to have any scruples in that department.

And if we have to drag race into it, consider this: The two characters that we've seen put out on the first "date" were fair-skinned blondes. Regardless, I highly doubt that that behavior is normal for any self-respecting girl when compared to real life.

[BRC]

I would like to point out that, if my count is right, we have seen exactly two black women in the comic right now. One is the daughter of the other, and was raised to be somewhat spoiled, and is about college-age.. The other is currently in a part of the afterlife basically dedicated to letting souls get over their physical desires. So yeah.

[Berserk Monk]

The comic isn't exactly filled with women who are bastions of chastity, no matter their color.

Haley, Celia, Hiljia, several women in Azure city ... and let's not forget the men who are more-than-willing participants.

Dudes can't be sluts: they're players.

Anyway, in oots, if you're female, you're either a slut, a minor character who has yet to establish themselves as a slut, or a crazy samurai chick that will kill anything that isn't insanely lawful (good) like she is because she is a slut for the gods.* Way to create realistic female characters Rich.

*This same statement can be said for most animes as well.

[Ghastly Epigram]

If a man has lots of sex, no problem. In fact, "Score!"

If a woman has lots of sex, SLUT!!!

:smallconfused:

What evidence do we have for Jenny being a "slut" anyway? Or even Julia for that matter.

(And Sabine does not count, she is literally an evil incarnation of illicit sex. :smalltongue:)

[Cúchulainn]

Why are people trying to bring our society morals into a fantasy setting?

[Zeful]

First there are three black women in the comic, Jenny, Julia, and Roy's mom. The first is seen having lots of sex with one partner, but has yet to show any loss of desire towards that partner. This is not indicative of being a "slut", just being passionate.
The second is at worst Schrodinger's Virgin, and as such her sexuality doesn't matter until it needs to. She may be a tease, but so was Ranma, half of the time anyway, so that implies nothing about her promiscuity. Until her promiscuity is proven, she cannot be a slut.
The third is dead and living in her alignment's version of heaven, in which amusements the departed are directed to are based of the desires they need to rid themselves of to move higher up the mountain, so her promiscuity is needed to attain a higher level of awareness/existence. This means the "slut" label, which is derogatory, cannot apply to her at all. Because that would imply her heaven discourages the behaviour, which the presence of the "Tavern of Infinite One-Night Stands" refutes.

Finally, the concept that a woman must be a virgin for a man, which is why promiscuity is seen negatively, is an antiquated concept at best.

[Zael Zuran]

Finally, the concept that a woman must be a virgin for a man, which is why promiscuity is seen negatively, is an antiquated concept at best.

I don't see how that is helpful, as loftily dismissing one's values is easily as offensive as wantonly chucking around loaded words like slut. The complaint of the poster was worded in an awkward and incendiary manner, but the observation stands.

Every female character with dark skin introduced thus far has been tied to sexual archetypes, either implied or actual. The succubus, the naughty schoolgirl, the one night stands in heaven, Belkar's groupie. There's no implicit judgement on my part, but it is an amusing (and almost certainly unintentional) trend in the comic. The introduction of a dark skinned female surnamed "the profoundly chaste" seems inevitable for a laugh and a wink to the audience.

Also, I have nothing but gratitude for all the women who have been nice enough to sleep with me. So nyeh. :smallbiggrin:

[Boogastreehouse]

Ummm... in the real world, it's 2009. Why on earth are there still people in 2009 who think that enjoying sex is an inherently "bad" thing?

Certainly someone might engage in sex for unhealthy reasons; to be popular maybe, or to receive approval, or to get someone to marry and support you.

But people, both male and female, can also engage in sex just because they enjoy it! Not because they have no self-respect, but because it feels good, and it also feels good to share that experience.

Rich has established in his setting that most of the characters (not just the black ones) are comfortable having sex. His portrayal of heaven is a place where one can (among other things) have as much guilt-free sex as one desires, without fear of disease or heartbreak. Even stick-in-the-mud Durkon was fine with his little tryst until he discovered she was married.

I feel that in this day and age the only time being promiscuous should have a negative label automatically attached is if the person isn't exercising caution, honesty and/or responsibility.

If people want to deny themselves the joys of the flesh, that's a fine choice as well, and hopefully a satisfying one, but your chastity doesn't make you "right" any more than my sluttiness makes me "wrong."


Thank you! I love this comic, but it drives me crazy that so few of the women seem to have any scruples in that department.

And if we have to drag race into it, consider this: The two characters that we've seen put out on the first "date" were fair-skinned blondes. Regardless, I highly doubt that that behavior is normal for any self-respecting girl when compared to real life.

Wow. "behavior (that is) is normal for any self-respecting girl." Way to condemn every person in the world who doesn't share your particular values.

[Zorfa_Tamanjoir]

The real question is when and why did Roy go from being Black to a much lighter brown?

I mean character redesigns aside, there is a pretty sharp change in his color from the beginning to now.

[Ridureyu]

Every female character with dark skin introduced thus far has been tied to sexual archetypes, either implied or actual.


Yes, this is pretty much true. However, it doesn't prove anything unless the comic tries to make a point about black women. Claiming that somehow black women are so "special" that they need extra anti-slut portrayal is pretty silly. If all the Azurites were Frank Miller-style whores, would there be this kind of a thread? Nope. I think the real racists are those claiming that, "OH NO! The Giant portrayed the possibility that some black women might be sexually active! HE IS A RACIST!"

Really, The true absence of racism is treating everyone equally, both in positives and negatives. Portraying one race as always good, always noble, and always perfect demeans their humanity, essentially claiming that "Black people can't make it in the real world unless we idolize them."

So yeah, we've gotten some sexually active black women in the strip. Whoop-de-doo, we've also gotten sexually-active white women.

[kpenguin]

Correlation does not imply causation.

[Lord Seth]

The comic isn't exactly filled with women who are bastions of chastity, no matter their color.

Haley, Celia, Hiljia, several women in Azure city ... and let's not forget the men who are more-than-willing participants.I don't get it. Why are Haley and Celia on that list? As far as I know they only have one boyfriend and have been completely faithful to them.

This isn't like Sabine, who had sex three times while separated from Elan, or Roy's mother who in the words of the Oracle, "whored up the afterlife", or Roy's sister, who certainly is...immodest with her dress as well as her behavior.

Hiljia I understand, but why Haley or Celia? Mind you, I personally loathe Celia, so it's annoying to have to defend her...

[shadzar]

Celia had a boyfriend prior to meeting with Roy, and went back to live with her mother after finding him slipping some wood to a dryad IIRC.

Haven't all the females in the comic been kinda slutty? Haley has her "other selves".

The only one not acting in a manner like that would either be the living ones that are married, and Miko, who probably barely knew she herself was a female. :tongue:

[Lunaya]

I agree fully that Haley shouldn't have been on Wombat's list. After all, we've never seen her do more than cuddle with Elan, not exactly R-rated. Celia just ticks me off in general.

I'm sorry if my views offended anyone. I just happen to think that a woman should love herself enough to make a man fight for her. (By "fight", I mean make him put forth an actual effort to win her heart before winning her body.)

[Zincorium]

Frankly, it didn't even occur to me, and it still doesn't seem to fit my perception of the comic regardless of squinting.

For me, 'slut' is strongly about the inability to be in relationships despite sexual activity. It's a social problem not a moral one.

Roy's mom was married previously, Belkar's fellow trystee has only been shown with one partner that she intends to continue a relationship with, and Sabine is not even a woman. It just doesn't click -at all-.

Edit:


I just happen to think that a woman should love herself enough to make a man fight for her. (By "fight", I mean make him put forth an actual effort to win her heart before winning her body.)

How very romantic of you. Of course, the assumption that without a 'fight' there is no love in a relationship is probably going to offend a lot of people that you didn't intend to hurt.

Although to be clear, the games and contests of the modern dating scene have pretty much killed any romantic bones in my body.

[kusje]

I don't get it. Why are Haley and Celia on that list? As far as I know they only have one boyfriend and have been completely faithful to them.


Celia slept with Roy on the first "date". But if we want to be technical about it and say Sabine isn't a human, then celia isn't human as well.

[Haven]

And Roy's mom. But even with her, the comic doesn't exactly condemn her behavior. Quite the reverse, the fact that not only is she allowed into Celestia, but that Celestia actually has a public "Tavern of Infinite One-Night Stands," seems to indicate that Rich, or at least the powers-that-be in the OotS world, see absolutely nothing wrong with some sexual promiscuity, such as hers. Which seems to be the problem with the "slut" label - not the sex, but the negative connotations of the word which imply condemnation of the behavior, and that simply does not exist here.

Zevox

Zevok wins the thread.

Really, none of the listed characters have used sexuality to hurt someone, like sleeping with one person when they had a commitment to another. If anyone's slutty, it's the guys in this comic--Belkar obviously, but Elan's "seduction" of Samantha is also pretty wrong, sexually-morally speaking. But he didn't know any better. And I don't think any of them have really debased themselves in any way over their sexuality (well, Julia did a bit, but she's 16, Durkon set her straight about "respecting herself", which I thought was a nice little bit).

Sabine's an interesting case. Despite her statements to the contrary, I think she actually WAS mad at Nale for going on that date with Haley, as evinced by her chat with V. But she had a hard time admitting it to herself, much less to Nale.

[Lunaya]

You didn't read my clarification, Zinc. I meant "Fight" to mean some kind of effort made to get to know your potential partner. Is it so wrong to make an emotional connection before a physical one?

[isocum]

The real question is when and why did Roy go from being Black to a much lighter brown?

I mean character redesigns aside, there is a pretty sharp change in his color from the beginning to now.

afaik the old color was causing problems when printing, so rich had to change it.

[Dagren]

Sabine is a shapeshifter, I don't think you can really call her black.Depends. We've seen her in, oh, maybe half a dozen different forms? She's had similar skin tone in all of them. Whether this actually says anything about her or is just so we can recognise her is another matter, however.

EDIT: By the way, what about Haerta? The whole transparent thing makes it a bit difficult to judge, but she seems to have darker skin than average.

[Omegonthesane]

Depends. We've seen her in, oh, maybe half a dozen different forms? She's had similar skin tone in all of them. Whether this actually says anything about her or is just so we can recognise her is another matter, however.

EDIT: By the way, what about Haerta? The whole transparent thing makes it a bit difficult to judge, but she seems to have darker skin than average.

By comparison with Roy, yeah, Haerta counts as black for this stick figure comic's purposes. I recall the April Fool's thread saying OOTS was racist, citing that the most powerful black person in the strip was an Epic-level evil necromancer.

Given what characterization we have of her, I can't really imagine Haerta putting out all too easily. Particularly given she is, after all, Evil, and a Wizard, and thus is probably just a Dominate Person away from getting any guy she desires.

[Captain Alien]

Ummm... in the real world, it's 2009. Why on earth are there still people in 2009 who think that enjoying sex is an inherently "bad" thing?


Yes, and no. People seem to think that only man can have sex, or something. Just like in the middle age.

When a man is constantly having sex with different girls, most people admire him. When a woman does the same, most people call her a slut. Even the other girls.

There's only one character in OotS that perhaps you may call "slut" (And it's still a discriminatory word): Sabine. But, you know. She is a succubus. You're not going to blame her for that, are you?

[ZeroNumerous]

(... look at Mialee)

I'd much rather not.. :smallfrown:


Correlation does not imply causation.

But it does, as xkcd put it, point and snicker loudly.


Sabine. But, you know. She is a succubus. You're not going to blame her for that, are you?

Actually, yes you very well could blame her for that. There is established precedent for chaste succubi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_characters_in_Planescape:_Torment#Fall-From-Grace).

[shadzar]

Um, maybe sex and relationships is just another running gag in the strip? Like it always turns up to be in games of D&D. There is little story or plot involved in them, but somehow sexual encounters (how much XP and are they solo or mob encounters? :smallwink: ) are always brought into the game by at least one player, so OOTS just takes it to the extreme and in order to help show they are people living in the OOTS world itself?

[EyethatBinds]

Rich is just trying to portray a realistic D&D game. Have you ever seen one which didn't have a strangely large portion of the female populous that were easy?

[Lissou]

I'm sorry if my views offended anyone. I just happen to think that a woman should love herself enough to make a man fight for her. (By "fight", I mean make him put forth an actual effort to win her heart before winning her body.)

I understand your point (you think that a woman should be in love before she has sex, and that having sex without love means a low self-esteem, if I'm correct).
I disagree, however. I don't see why love and sex should go together. It can for you of course, but I don't think it should for everybody. I can certainly think of times I have been in love without having sex at all, and cases I had sex without being in love. Not because I didn't respect myself, and no, I didn't give my body, it's a shared experience. Thinking the man is winning the woman's body sounds a bit sexist to me.
You're two people, you "win" each other's body, or rather you share something. It can be a hug, it can be intercourse. I don't consider one more wrong than the other, and I don't consider either requires being in love.

As far as I'm concerned, trust and respect are required, but I wouldn't hold anyone else to that either. It you have sex with someone you don't trust or respect, just for the pleasure of the thing, well sure, why not. It's like eating a piece of chocolate cake without being hungry. Some actually say it tastes better if you're not hungry.

Anyway, about the black thing... I've always seen Sabine more as a... I don't know the word in English, a half-black, half-white person. As such, she's as much white as she's black to me.

[Boogastreehouse]

I'm sorry if my views offended anyone. I just happen to think that a woman should love herself enough to make a man fight for her. (By "fight", I mean make him put forth an actual effort to win her heart before winning her body.)

No, no. I understand your view, and I don't disagree with the sentiment that's in the foreground; if a woman feels that it is important for a man to fight for her, then she shouldn't settle for something less. I'm right there with you so far. My comment stems from the subtext of your statements—the implication (in the quote above, for instance) that if she doesn't feel the need to make a man fight for her, that she then doesn't love herself enough.

My comment addresses the idea that a woman can just enjoy a sexual lifestyle for the pleasure of it (or for the love and affection of just being friends with her lover, or from any number of rewards), with no need to have her partner prove his or her devotion to her. This woman is not necessarily suffering from a lack of scruples, nor is she automatically suffering from a lack of self-respect—a conclusion that I perceive you to be drawing—just because her priorities are different.


Is it so wrong to make an emotional connection before a physical one?

Absolutely not. I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with that at all. Is it so wrong for a woman not to feel the need to do so?

It may seem that I'm trying to start a fight, but I'm sincerely not. I've just spent years hearing people I know, people whom I am close to—balanced, loving and self-loving people—being called sluts (in a negative way) because of the degree of comfort they have with their own sexuality. It's left me with some strong opinions, and a degree of sensitivity, when I perceive judgment being passed.

I honestly hope that I am sufficiently expressing my respect in this exchange, despite my disagreement.

[Ridureyu]

So Sabine's Halle Barry, then?

[Boogastreehouse]

Lissou, your post did a much better job of saying what I was trying to say. I agree with you.


Thinking the man is winning the woman's body sounds a bit sexist to me.

I've always thought of that as the Olive Oil syndrome. The desire (need?) to have your lover prove their devotion by competing for it (like Popeye and Bluto).


Anyway, about the black thing... I've always seen Sabine more as a... I don't know the word in English, a half-black, half-white person. As such, she's as much white as she's black to me.

Is the word you're looking for mulatto? I believe that is the traditional term, although I think it might currently be politically incorrect. Then again, everything is politically incorrect at some point, isn't it?

[Querzis]

Actually, yes you very well could blame her for that. There is established precedent for chaste succubi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_characters_in_Planescape:_Torment#Fall-From-Grace).

Yeah, which is one of the stupidest thing to ever come out of planescape.


You didn't read my clarification, Zinc. I meant "Fight" to mean some kind of effort made to get to know your potential partner. Is it so wrong to make an emotional connection before a physical one?

Not at all, but its very wrong to assume girls who dont think love and sex have anything to do with each other have no self-respect.

Anyway, the only reason we even see promiscuity as wrong is because of our culture. OOTS is a magical world where gods walk the Earth and where we actually know for a fact about the afterlives so the fact that people dont make such a big deal about sex in a world like that just seems logical to me.

By the way, it also surprise me that a guy who sleep with many girls is admired by other guys while a girl that sleep with many guys is called a slut by other girls. But once again, its part of our culture and our upbringing.

[Lissou]

Is the word you're looking for mulatto? I believe that is the traditional term, although I think it might currently be politically incorrect. Then again, everything is politically incorrect at some point, isn't it?

Right, except mulatto sounds like it would be for a male, to me. And I have no idea if it's incorrect to use, sometimes I can't really follow these things.
Either way, it's always seemed weird to me that (in French at least) there is a word for someone with a black parent and a white parent, but no other "combination" (except when both parents are the same of course). Only the word "métis" that means you're a mix, but it could be anything, including mulatto.
Anyway, it's a bit hard to see ethnicity in oots, but to be Sabine kinda moves between mulatto and latino, depending.

Someone asked when Roy's skin tone changed, btw, and the answer is about the way it looked in print. His eyes and mouth couldn't be seen with his skin so dark so Rich made it lighter.

The problem with stick figure is that you can only change the skin tone, and that doesn't mean that much without features. There are people in India with a very dark skin tone who aren't considered "black" because they don't have the features. There are Japanese people with a darkish skin, same as latinos. In Africa there is a broad range, from North Africa (Arabia, Tunisia...) with un-black, medium skin toned people, to Black Africa, with people so black you can't always see their features and their eyes looks so white (in Senegal for instance).

Anyway, I'm guessing the Giant has a few skin tones he uses, and unless it really matters for the story (all Azurites are Asian, Roy's family is black like him..) he probably just picks one at random, I'd say. I don't think it is of any importance or relevance that Jenny has dark skin.

(Sorry about that whole speech. I recently tried to make it obvious that a stick figure character was a First Nation guy. No such luck >.>)

[factotum]

Right, except mulatto sounds like it would be for a male, to me. And I have no idea if it's incorrect to use, sometimes I can't really follow these things.


"Mulatto" can refer to either gender, AFAIK, but it's an archaic (and probably offensive) word so you won't really hear it today. There's also "quadroon" (one-quarter black ancestry) and "octoroon" (one-eighth)--again, archaic and probably offensive these days; I think the only time I ever saw the latter word used was to describe someone in Huxley's "Brave New World", which was published in 1932!

[Mephit]

Correlation does not imply causation.

My thought exactly.

[Assassin89]

Must restrain self from stabbing thread

The conclusion made should be invalid because we have only seen three females with dark skin and a succubus. The conclusion is also based on a fraction of the entire world, meaning that there is not enough evidence to support the conclusion.

[Lunaya]

I didn't give my body, it's a shared experience. Thinking the man is winning the woman's body sounds a bit sexist to me.
You're two people, you "win" each other's body, or rather you share something.
You're absolutely right. Without going into detail, I'll chalk my feelings to the contrary up to a lifetime under a very domineering man. I know it's very wrong, but it's difficult for me not to see sex as man exercising control over woman. Stupid, I know. But I'm sure I'll get over it eventually.


I honestly hope that I am sufficiently expressing my respect in this exchange, despite my disagreement.
Absolutely! I respect your views too. It's completely cool that what works for me may not be what works for other people. Mostly, I wanted to express that there doesn't seem to be any correlation in this comic between race and alleged promiscuity...Really, I don't know why the OP thought there was. :smalleek:

[Swordguy]

Why are people trying to bring our society morals into a fantasy setting?

Again, and embiggened, since it didn't seem to take the first time.

I can't believe this hasn't been locked yet.

[Dixieboy]

Must restrain self from stabbing thread

The conclusion made should be invalid because we have only seen three females with dark skin and a succubus.
Two of whom were related, and while yes. The mother was sexually liberated and the daughter was quite eager to direct attention towards her "assets"... Screw it, that is fairly slutty, and while yea there is a bar of infinite one night stands in heaven, they ARE trying to make you feel guilty about it. (According to Roys archon)

The last girl was faced with the charms of the belkster, we would've all have fallen for him, even the dudes. :smallamused: (Which i myself, am one of)

But in the end.
Who cares?

[theMycon]

Zz'dtri has no sexual connotations whatsoever.

Likewise, V's children, despite making up a full male and a full female between the two of them, did not offer themselves to the dragon.

When Roy donned the Belt of Gender Change, he didn't suddenly spread his legs to that gnome, despite it being very willing.

There. Two and a half counter-examples. Versus three and a half examples (Zz'dtri Vs. Sabine).

Also, Dude, black is not the preferred nomenclature. African-Stickversian, please.Yes, I know there's no "Africa" here. I can never resist a Big Lebowski quote when the situation calls for it.


Furthermore, the OP's treating objects like they're women.

[factotum]

Screw it, that is fairly slutty, and while yea there is a bar of infinite one night stands in heaven, they ARE trying to make you feel guilty about it. (According to Roys archon)


Ironically, though, the way they make you feel guilty about the one-night stands is to make you start your life in Celestia living with your parents...at least, that's the implication of the conversation Roy had with his archon there!

[Adeptus]

Why are all black women in OOTS sluts?

Huge eyeroll for the medieval "sexual morals" in the opening post. Jesus H Christ.

/edit

And anybody who is willing to use that name and think it only applies to women is misogynist to the level of racism. If anything it's the blokes who will sleep with pretty much anyone at any time.

[Haven]

Furthermore, the OP's treating objects like they're women.

Bwah?? :smalleek:

[Adeptus]

The real question is when and why did Roy go from being Black to a much lighter brown.

There was some issue with how the colours look in the books, I seem to recall.

[Lord Seth]

Celia slept with Roy on the first "date".That may have been a bit quick, but as far as we know Roy was her only boyfriend at the time. Let me pull up my handy dandy dictionary...
Slut: A slovenly or promiscuous woman.

Slovenly: (Especially of a person or their appearance) Messy and dirty
Promiscuous: Having many sexual relationships, especially transient ones.

Promiscuous is the key bit here, and I don't see how sleeping with Roy on their first date makes her promiscuous. It's moving a bit fast, but as far as I know she's stayed faithful to him, and only tried a relationship with him AFTER her previous boyfriend cheated on her. That's not promiscuous.

There's loads of things to dislike about Celia, but she isn't promiscuous.

[kivzirrum]

I don't want to get too involved in this dispute-- could be dangerous-- but I think that Elan may be the biggest non-succubus slut in the comic. I mean, it's practically in his charter to seduce enemy women, remember?

Anyway, a small amount of sexual freedom isn't necessarily a bad thing. Unless it's on Sabine-esque levels, but Sabine isn't exactly glorified anyway.

[Selene]

Generally, if someone's parents are of different racial background, they are called "mixed" or "mixed race."

And perhaps the answer to the OP's question is "because all the black women in OotS are seriously hot, and they can be."

[Querzis]

Zz'dtri has no sexual connotations whatsoever..

Hum...he was a dark elf.


Likewise, V's children, despite making up a full male and a full female between the two of them, did not offer themselves to the dragon.

...ok what the hell?


When Roy donned the Belt of Gender Change, he didn't suddenly spread his legs to that gnome, despite it being very willing.

WHAT THE HELL???


Furthermore, the OP's treating objects like they're women.

...How? And if there's a post I find offensive in this thread its yours, even if it was (hopefully) sarcasm.

[SPoD]

This is the worst thread ever.

I don't know what's worse, the people calling the black women who enjoy sex sluts, or the people using the white women who enjoy sex as a counter-argument to say that ALL women in OOTS are sluts.

[Wishpig]

If a man has lots of sex, no problem. In fact, "Score!"

If a woman has lots of sex, SLUT!!!

:smallconfused:

What evidence do we have for Jenny being a "slut" anyway? Or even Julia for that matter.

(And Sabine does not count, she is literally an evil incarnation of illicit sex. :smalltongue:)

Biologically this is actually quite good... double standards sure, but

A. women have a MUCH better chance of getting an STD
B. women get pregnant, not men

simple fact is, women have more to lose

Lol, this was a topic in one of my Anthro classes.


This is the worst thread ever.

I don't know what's worse, the people calling the black women who enjoy sex sluts, or the people using the white women who enjoy sex as a counter-argument to say that ALL women in OOTS are sluts.

It really really really is... I hate people who get easily offended

[Lissou]

It really really really is... I hate people who get easily offended

Do they offend you? :P

I think it might be more accurate to say that you have a higher chance getting a STD if you're a "receiver". You don't have to be a woman for that. Of course, your point still stands: straight, sexually active women are "receivers" most of the time if not all the time.

And the pregnancy thing is very true, too.

But rather than saying "it's self-defense that causes the double standard", I think it has more to do with insecurity... I might get flamed for that, but I've noticed women are quicker to judge a woman who, say, doesn't wear make-up, doesn't shave, is promiscuous or isn't thin, and it seems to me that most of the time, it's because the women judging feel that they personally couldn't get away with it. (That they personally /have/ to do that, not because they want to, but because they wouldn't be attractive otherwise. Which I strongly disagree with, incidentally, I feel that if you want to do these things, that's perfectly fine, but you should do them for yourself or it won't make you happy).
If I'm making sense.
In opposition, I've never seen a man care that I don't shave and don't wear make up, and that includes men I had sex with, male friends and male strangers.

[Cúchulainn]

Must not point out that Lissou is french. MUST. RESIST...

[SPoD]

Biologically this is actually quite good... double standards sure, but

A. women have a MUCH better chance of getting an STD
B. women get pregnant, not men

simple fact is, women have more to lose


See, and if this were their argument, Sabine and Sarah Greenhilt would both be vindicated in their behavior anyway. Sabine is a demon, Sarah is dead; neither one of them can get pregnant OR contract any diseases. So there is no biological imperative for them to be chaste whatsoever. Which is pretty much the entire POINT of Sarah's behavior--freed from the constraints of the mortal world, she's allowed to have as much fun as she wants.

Of course, we would be fooling ourselves in thinking that the woman's health is the primary reason most people choose to castigate a promiscuous woman.

[Stormthorn]

If a man has lots of sex, no problem. In fact, "Score!"

If a woman has lots of sex, SLUT!!!

In my book its not ok for a guy either.

But im biased against sex, having seen people do really stupid things they would later regret because of sex.

Hmm...why are they all sluts.... Good question, but know one but the Giant really knows, now do they? Since its a small number we are talking about it may well be a co-incidink.


neither one of them can get pregnant
Demons can get pregnant. Otherwise their would be no reason for male demons to be fertile or for female ones to have their lady parts. Im assuming that that can and do get pregnant and that both male and female demons account for the number of half-fiends across the planes.

[Lissou]

Must not point out that Lissou is french. MUST. RESIST...

Actually, that stereotype is what caused me to stop shaving after I moved to Canada :P
People kept telling me "Oh, we know you're French, you don't have to shave for our sake" and I started wondering why I was doing it in the first place. So I stopped.
Of course, once I was back in France, I was welcomed by "ewwww, that's dirty!"... I wash everyday, thank you very much.
But I noticed only women said stuff like that. Not all women, but I never had remarks from men. Either they don't even notice (it's not what they're looking at :P) or they don't care.

[SPoD]

Demons can get pregnant. Otherwise their would be no reason for male demons to be fertile or for female ones to have their lady parts. Im assuming that that can and do get pregnant and that both male and female demons account for the number of half-fiends across the planes.

We don't know that such is true on the OOTS world. Half-demons may only exist from male demons impregnating mortal women. Note that Sabine makes up a story about her menstrual cycle, which implies that she does not have one, so who knows?

At any rate, the only mortal Sabine has ever slept with during the strip is Nale, and she may be under orders to create a half-demon with him. Her promiscuity with other demons is therefore entirely safe for her, because demons don't reproduce through sex.

[theMycon]

Hum...he was a dark elf.

...ok what the hell?

WHAT THE HELL???

...How? And if there's a post I find offensive in this thread its yours, even if it was (hopefully) sarcasm.
1: Dunno, I always thought of Zz'dtri as a chick...
That's... accepting the point, right? It's kind of hard to be drow and not be black.

2: Follows the rule of "the more perverse, the funnier"
As elves, they count as whichever gender is more convenient for the plot. Thus, there's both 50-50. Combined, they make a full man, and a full woman.
They're 26 years old, yet they didn't try to sleep with anyone. Despite being darker than most of the "black" women offered.
This brings up another counter-example. The Ancient Black Dragon doesn't show any signs of sluttiness either. Although, she's only shown meeting people who she wishes every ill on in the world. Still, one (ancient) African-Stickversian woman, meeting three African-Stickversian half-women, and no sexual connotations come up whatsoever. So, clearly, darker ladies can have personalities which both exclude and eclipse sexuality.

3:
This being over 400 comics go, I can accept your forgetting the incident. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0235.html)
It provides an undeniable counter-example. The idea of her sleeping with a stranger, simply because he was willing, makes her physically ill.

4:...If your response is serious... google the movie whited out from the quoted post, immediately above the quoted section. I know you saw the words. They're the only bit you didn't post. That is a paraphrase of my favorite quote, which you can use surprisingly often in real-life conversations.
They're an organized collection of zeroes and ones. They exist entirely for our entertainment, and are bit players at that. They don't have personalities, and don't interact with us long enough to display a consistent one. Saying they're sluts is roughly like saying "slices of bread are a sluts." Just because you happened to see them up against eachother all the time doesn't mean they exist to get off by it. The fact that the OP sees it and interprets it that way, and ignores/dismisses all counter examples only shows his own bias.

You must also consider that this was a response to "...all black women...", rather than the new title "... all black women in the comic...", wherein the above goes from "true but silly" to "well, that's a decent point, but kinda meta-argument." Bull. It was ALL for the Big Lebowski quote.

[Cúchulainn]

Either they don't even notice (it's not what they're looking at :P) or they don't care.

Whatever else could they be looking at? :smallconfused: :smalltongue:

Anyway, I don't really have an opinion on double standards. As a male I tend to just accept what women think and let them roll with it. Farbeit from me to call women insecure for trying to act perfect, but it's okay for you to say it. :smallwink: Call me whipped I guess, and I'm not even married.


1: Dunno, I always thought of Zz'dtri as a chick...
That's... accepting the point, right? It's kind of hard to be drow and not be black.

They're obsidian, not black. And also Drow have social customs that have to do with sex and lust and depravity, I think that was what he was referring to. It's kind of hard for a Drow not to have sexual connotations.

Also stop using white text, damn you. I didn't even see it before I went to reply. :smalltongue:

[The Giant]

There's nothing like getting accused of racism to liven up one's day.

There are two separate arguments on this thread: One, whether there is some correlation between skin color and promiscuity, and two, whether there is too much promiscuity among the women portrayed in the comic.

-----------------

The first is easy to answer: The only considerations that I give to skin color is that there be a normal distribution among a group, except in the case of a blood relation to an existing character.

In the case of Sabine, she is the tone that she is for two reasons: One, because it is a "mixed race" tone that could pass for any ethnic group in a pinch, as befits a shapeshifter, and two, because I wanted there to be at least one person of color on the Linear Guild. Yikyik, Thog, and Zz'dtri all needed to be the colors that they were due to their species, and Nale needed to be the same color as Elan. So, I could have made either Sabine or Hilgya dark skinned--either way, a black woman would have been having sex. I chose Sabine because Durkon is dark-skinned, and I wanted there to be some difference between Hilgya and Durkon to show that dwarves have races, too.

In the case of Jenny, I established the character as a throwaway joke in On the Origins of PCs, at which time I chose her to be black purely at random. (You'll note that Billy the Thieves' Guild Intern is also black.) While I expected the Thieves' Guild to come back as a whole, I didn't get the idea to have her sleep with Belkar until I was plotting this arc. At that point, I suppose I could have invented another female thief character out of some misguided "Character Affirmative Action" or something, but really, it didn't even cross my mind to do so. I had a female character with a high enough Charisma to be a bard/sorcerer (and thus attractive enough for Belkar to kiss her rather than kill her), why create another throwaway when I can use the one I have? Besides, going out of my way to NOT have a character behave inappropriately due to their race is just as racist as if I had intentionally made her black because she was going to put out.

And in the case of Sarah and Julia, they have dark skin because Roy has dark skin. Which is obvious, so it asks the question as to why they act the way they do. Well, Sarah is promiscuous in the afterlife because seeing your mom be promiscuous is uncomfortable and awkward, and I wanted to make that joke. Note that Sarah was pretty monogamous in life, however; she met her husband at age 19. Julia is not necessarily promiscuous, merely shallow and vain. She wants attention, and she uses her looks to get it. This is intended to contrast with Roy, and shadow Eugene's egotism.

-----------------

So that brings us to the issue of whether or not the women of OOTS are all unnecessarily promiscuous, to which I would say a resounding "No, not in my book." (I mean, it obviously, IS my book, but you know what I'm saying.)

The characters in the comic, for the most part, are relatively young people (in their 20's, for most of them) who live a life of constant danger and travel. They do not have the luxury of going on 10 dates before hooking up, because they spend hardly any time in cities or towns at all and their prospective mate might get eaten by a wereplatypus before that special 10th date. Their profession is such that they may only get one chance at that special connection before fate rips it away from them.

Haley knew Elan as well as anyone by the time he grabbed her and kissed her. Given that she knew her own feelings well, why should she wait at that point? What if something crazy and unpredictable happened the next day like, say, Xykon invading the city and separating them for six months? Celia may have been a civilian, but she knew she had to return to the plane of Elemental Air the next day to resume her studies and that Roy may be killed before she saw him again. As it turned out, that is exactly what happened. So how can anyone fault either one of them for rushing in?

We all live in a fairly sedentary world, where long violence-free lives are the default and we can date someone for months or even years before having sex with them. The characters of OOTS do not have that luxury. Faulting these women (or any of the men, really) for knowing what they want and going after it strikes me as projecting morals that were built for this world onto theirs.

-----------------

As far as the prevalence of sex in OOTS at all, well, that's intentional. It's a great source of jokes, and it's something that has hardly ever been addressed in other works based on D&D. A frank look at the likely ramifications that a D&D-style world would have on sexual behavior is one of the secondary themes of OOTS, if a stick figure satire comic can be said to have themes at all. This isn't the medieval world, after all, it's a world with 100% gender equality, a known afterlife, clerics that can cure any disease, and rampaging monsters around every corner.

If you're looking for a story where the main characters never talk or think about sex, much less have it, you should go and read...um...every other work of D&D fantasy fiction ever produced.

[The Giant]

Also, everyone black that is not related to Roy seems to be evil...

Now, see, this is just stupid. This, I won't dignify with a response.

[Godskook]

The term slut has nothing to do with enjoying sex. Quite frankly, I *want* my wife to enjoy having sex with me as much or more than I enjoy having it with her. Anybody who thinks that such a fact would make my wife 'slutty' is on drugs. A slut is defined by her lack of standards in men and/or her lack of commitment to her partners.

(And being in the Afterlife, the late Mrs. Greenhilt can't be held to 'mortal' standards, regardless of what anyone thinks.)


Finally, the concept that a woman must be a virgin for a man, which is why promiscuity is seen negatively, is an antiquated concept at best.

Personally, I believe that both men and women should save themselves for marriage, and I see nothing antiquated about it. I did it, and I'm happy I did.

[Swordguy]

There's nothing like getting accused of racism to liven up one's day.
...
We all live in a fairly sedentary world, where long violence-free lives are the default and we can date someone for months or even years before having sex with them. The characters of OOTS do not have that luxury. Faulting these women (or any of the men, really) for knowing what they want and going after it strikes me as projecting morals that were built for this world onto theirs.
...
If you're looking for a story where the main characters never talk or think about sex, much less have it, you should go and read...um...every other work of D&D fantasy fiction ever produced.


THANK YOU, Giant!

http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n294/wolffe42/orsonclapping1.gif

[Lunaya]

The term slut has nothing to do with enjoying sex. Quite frankly, I *want* my wife to enjoy having sex with me as much or more than I enjoy having it with her. Anybody who thinks that such a fact would make my wife 'slutty' is on drugs. A slut is defined by her lack of standards in men and/or her lack of commitment to her partners.

(And being in the Afterlife, the late Mrs. Greenhilt can't be held to 'mortal' standards, regardless of what anyone thinks.)

Personally, I believe that both men and women should save themselves for marriage, and I see nothing antiquated about it. I did it, and I'm happy I did.
Thank you! I couldn't have summed it up better. Bottom line, none of us are going to have the same world view. Let's just chill out and enjoy a good story. :smallsmile:

[Warren Dew]

Anyway, about the black thing... I've always seen Sabine more as a... I don't know the word in English, a half-black, half-white person. As such, she's as much white as she's black to me.

In the U.S., it seems like people are generally dropped into basic racial bins. It only takes maybe a quarter or an eighth of subsaharan blood to be considered "black". "Hispanic", last I checked, was legally patrilineal, following the surname. Half European, half asian people use the term "Eurasian" for themselves, but others generally put them in one bin or the other based on their hair style and color, etc. All very silly for a place that's not supposed to care about race, but that's the U.S. for you.


Generally, if someone's parents are of different racial background, they are called "mixed" or "mixed race."

My parents are of different racial backgrounds, and to my knowledge I've never been called "mixed race". Frankly, I'd be insulted if I were, because (a) race shouldn't matter, and (b) if race did matter, it would matter which races were being mixed.


In opposition, I've never seen a man care that I don't shave and don't wear make up, and that includes men I had sex with, male friends and male strangers.

That's because men are judged on different bases than women. Outside of the office, men tend to be condemned for dressing nicely or neatly, for example. Physical bulk is valued in men, so it's the skinny ones that are judged negatively, as are men who refrain from casual sex when it's offered.

Trust me, there's plenty of judging going on for men, too.


At that point, I suppose I could have invented another female thief character out of some misguided "Character Affirmative Action" or something ...

Thanks for that observation, and the explanation. I'll admit the coincidences the original poster mentions had bothered me a little, but now that you point it out, race consciously fixing that would be worse. Pity there aren't more racially unbiased stories so this kind of coincidence would be unremarkable.

[SavageWombat]

I love it when the Voice of Authority can come and set your doubts to rest on a subject, don't you?

God bless the internet and webcomics!

[nih]

Of course, we would be fooling ourselves in thinking that the woman's health is the primary reason most people choose to castigate a promiscuous woman.

That is so true.

The real reason why promiscuity tends to be more accepted in men than in women is that we live in a traditionally male dominated society. This is all about control and power.

In a truly emancipated world, there would be no bias either way.

[lord_khaine]

That is so true.

The real reason why promiscuity tends to be more accepted in men than in women is that we live in a traditionally male dominated society. This is all about control and power.

In a truly emancipated world, there would be no bias either way

that does not make sense, for it seems its the womans who are doing most of the judging.

[Quorothorn]

The last girl was faced with the charms of the belkster, we would've all have fallen for him, even the dudes. :smallamused: (Which i myself, am one of)

But in the end.
Who cares?

I totally agree with you on both points.



Also, Dude, black is not the preferred nomenclature. African-Stickversian, please.Yes, I know there's no "Africa" here. I can never resist a Big Lebowski quote when the situation calls for it.


Furthermore, the OP's treating objects like they're women.

Great choice of quotes, man.


For a thread with such an idiotic premise, it sure has had its share of awesome (even before The Giant came in).

[Lissou]

Wow. That's an incredibly detailled response from the Giant for something I didn't think was serious in the first place. Hopefully that will clear it though.

That whole thing reminds me of how Dora the explorer's skin tone was chosen, because on all continents it's possible to find someone with that skin tone, making her more "universal".

Also, I always thought of "Eurasian" as someone who lives in Eurasia... That is, Europe+Asia (it's sometimes considered a continent, just like North+South America is sometimes referred to as a single continent).

Speaking of which, just saying "Asian" makes little sense. Asian from Afghanistan, India, China? They're all different.

[misterk]

Awesome work Giant: an intelligent and detailed response to a question which can often cause people to respond quite angrily (especially when it was phrased quite so indelicately by the op!)

[Island Gorilla]

In a strip where all the main characters (except the token asexual) have been engaging in casual sex, why is everyone surprised that NPCs are getting in on the action as well?

Why, in a universe where Lawful Good clerics can have sex before marriage, paladins endorse gay relationships without so much as a raised eyebrow, and sylphs and humans will get jiggy at the drop of a plot twist, are people determined to criticise female characters for exactly the same actions as the males? This is a universe with progressive sexual values, for those of you too busy hurrrring at der funnie belkarr. You can try and judge characters for their sexual conduct, but you might as well judge Roy for leading a party instead of picking cotton or Haley for being a career thief instead of making sandwiches.

Speaking as a fair, sexiful white male with a background in the performing arts I am SUPAH OFFANDID that Elan is a dirty little skirt-chasing ho-bag. I personally use my charms for good, not personal gain, and the implication that all of my ilk seduce antagonists for class-oriented reasons is deeply hurtful.

[Dagren]

...paladins endorse gay relationships without so much as a raised eyebrow...I think I missed that one.

[Sir_Norbert]

Going back to something on the first page, which you really should have been called out for before now:


Celia had a boyfriend prior to meeting with Roy, and went back to live with her mother after finding him slipping some wood to a dryad IIRC.

Haven't all the females in the comic been kinda slutty?

(emphasis added)

Yup, if you have more than one sexual relationship in your entire life you're a slut is what this poster seems to be saying. :smalleek: Otherwise I cannot see how Celia's previous relationship is in any way relevant.

[Estelindis]

Well, although it has provocative content, at least this thread has had the good result of us getting to read the Giant's thoughts on some of the differences between the real world and the Stickverse and the implications that these would have for the romantic lives of the characters in this comic. It was a pretty awesome post!

[eras10]

Great response, Rich. Good to see you on the boards. I'm a latecomer here, but I've gone through the archives, back when you had more time to interact with the fans. You sure do have a lot to do, but feel free to drop in more often. I'm never going to make it to a convention or a book-signing, so when you speak at length on the boards, that's like an autograph.

Not a man-crush - just cool to observe a great artist outside of his work. Now that I've made you uncomfortable, I'll let it go at that.

[Alysar]

Ummm... in the real world, it's 2009. Why on earth are there still people in 2009 who think that enjoying sex is an inherently "bad" thing?

Certainly someone might engage in sex for unhealthy reasons; to be popular maybe, or to receive approval, or to get someone to marry and support you.

But people, both male and female, can also engage in sex just because they enjoy it! Not because they have no self-respect, but because it feels good, and it also feels good to share that experience.

Rich has established in his setting that most of the characters (not just the black ones) are comfortable having sex. His portrayal of heaven is a place where one can (among other things) have as much guilt-free sex as one desires, without fear of disease or heartbreak. Even stick-in-the-mud Durkon was fine with his little tryst until he discovered she was married.

I feel that in this day and age the only time being promiscuous should have a negative label automatically attached is if the person isn't exercising caution, honesty and/or responsibility.

If people want to deny themselves the joys of the flesh, that's a fine choice as well, and hopefully a satisfying one, but your chastity doesn't make you "right" any more than my sluttiness makes me "wrong."


Thank you! I love this comic, but it drives me crazy that so few of the women seem to have any scruples in that department.

And if we have to drag race into it, consider this: The two characters that we've seen put out on the first "date" were fair-skinned blondes. Regardless, I highly doubt that that behavior is normal for any self-respecting girl when compared to real life.

Wow. "behavior (that is) is normal for any self-respecting girl." Way to condemn every person in the world who doesn't share your particular values.

Yes! Preach it, Sister!

Anyone who thinks that enjoying sex is wrong is in serious denial of human nature.

As long as you are being responsible and honest (honest with yourself, the person you are with, and with anyone you might be in a relationship with that isn't the person you are having sex with) there is absolutely nothing wrong with sex.

[Lunaya]

Yes! Preach it, Sister!

Anyone who thinks that enjoying sex is wrong is in serious denial of human nature.

As long as you are being responsible and honest (honest with yourself, the person you are with, and with anyone you might be in a relationship with that isn't the person you are having sex with) there is absolutely nothing wrong with sex.
Come on, now. I clarified by viewpoint after that quote, and I never suggested that enjoying sex was wrong. What bothers me is that twenty-somethings like me seem to be expected to have sex, whether casually or in a committed relationship, and the thought that I might be considered a freak because I don't want to, frightens me.

I think it's wonderful that other people are enjoying all life has to offer, but it's not for me. Please stop taking my words as condemnation for people who may not feel as I do. It's not my intention to judge anyone, fictional or otherwise, but if it came across that way, I'm sorry.

[Estelindis]

Lunaya, you expressed your views very clearly and respectfully. There are just certain issues on which some people can't accept that others have different opinions, and chastity / sexual freedom / [whatever you like to call it, since your terminology will almost certainly be affected by your opinion on the whole thing] is one of them. In years past, the majority of people would have agreed with you and would have bullied anyone who said differently, regardless of how well they expressed themselves. But the pendulum swings back and forth through the years, and at the moment the majority are intolerant towards your point of view, feeling that it's okay for them to represent you in a bad light because they "know" they're in the right. I know it's difficult, but try not to take it personally. It's about them, not you. (Plus, in another age, you could have been in their position and acted the same way - though, of course, we'd both hope you wouldn't.)

[A Guy]

I would like to apologize for being overly racially sensitive. May a mod please lock this?

[shadzar]

Going back to something on the first page, which you really should have been called out for before now:



(emphasis added)

Yup, if you have more than one sexual relationship in your entire life you're a slut is what this poster seems to be saying. :smalleek: Otherwise I cannot see how Celia's previous relationship is in any way relevant.

Yeah, and I thought the whole thread was a joke, and when I realized later that it was serious I posted:


Um, maybe sex and relationships is just another running gag in the strip? Like it always turns up to be in games of D&D. There is little story or plot involved in them, but somehow sexual encounters (how much XP and are they solo or mob encounters? :smallwink: ) are always brought into the game by at least one player, so OOTS just takes it to the extreme and in order to help show they are people living in the OOTS world itself?

Still contains a joke. Which I think goes along with what Rich said. It is just there for humor, and not entirely measured out who will do what on day 1 of the characters creation.

So how about not put words into my mouth as to what I was implying. If I meant to say all women are sluts, I would have said so without any innuendo

:smallmad:.

[Boogastreehouse]

Come on, now. I clarified by viewpoint after that quote, and I never suggested that enjoying sex was wrong. What bothers me is that twenty-somethings like me seem to be expected to have sex, whether casually or in a committed relationship, and the thought that I might be considered a freak because I don't want to, frightens me.

I think it's wonderful that other people are enjoying all life has to offer, but it's not for me. Please stop taking my words as condemnation for people who may not feel as I do. It's not my intention to judge anyone, fictional or otherwise, but if it came across that way, I'm sorry.

Well, it did sound that way to me at first, but you've since taken the time to clarify your position, and to express as much of a respect for the lifestyles of other people as you would like given to you and your choices. I appreciate the time you took to make your feelings clear, and I certainly don't feel judged by you anymore.

I can't speak for him, but I don't think that Alysar is taking a shot at you specifically, here. I perceive him to be simply jumping in and expressing his general frustration with the judgment that is often directed at those of us who are comfortable being promiscuous.

[Prak]

"Black" encompasses a pretty wide range of skin tones. Some black people have significantly darker skin than others. Though I'll grant that identifying a character's ethnicity in a stick figure comic is a pretty dubious proposition.

not that it really matters even then, seeing as how unless Africa is located in the abyss, Sabine's not Black, she's a succubus, a completely different species.

and I wouldn't call Belkar's gf/couple night stand a slut, I'd say she was swept off her feet.

[David Argall]

Note that Sarah was pretty monogamous in life, however; she met her husband at age 19.
Telling the writer he is wrong about his work is rather rash. However authors do make mistakes about what they write. In this case SOD Sarah propositions Eugene at a bar when he had never even seen her before and apparently merely deeming him the closest male who was not obviously unacceptable. Indeed, her language makes it possible she was not even talking to Eugene at first. He was just the first male to respond. Of course she was sloshed at the time and if we really want to, we can say she was virginal except for Eugene, but on the available evidence, if Sarah couldn't have her #1 man, she was satisfied with #2, 3, 4, 5, and/or 6, but not with none. Calling her a slut may be impolite, but it does not seem inaccurate.


We all live in a fairly sedentary world, where long violence-free lives are the default and we can date someone for months or even years before having sex with them. The characters of OOTS do not have that luxury. Faulting these women (or any of the men, really) for knowing what they want and going after it strikes me as projecting morals that were built for this world onto theirs.
The problem with this logic is that the real world went the other way. It was back when life was short and uncertain that the criticism of casual sex was loudest. From the girl's view, this is rather clear. A male who is going to die soon is not going to help raise the brat. Jumping in bed with Roy is highly dangerous. It is the modern woman with much more assurance she can nail the lout for child support who is more agreeable.
So we are importing more modern morals when we have the ladies of OOTS being agreeable. Now I can't say I am that eager a fan of social accuracy to call for reluctant females in the story, but a "real" OOTS world would likely feature less action, and be duller as a result.



Yup, if you have more than one sexual relationship in your entire life you're a slut is what this poster seems to be saying. Otherwise I cannot see how Celia's previous relationship is in any way relevant.

The original claim was that Celia had never had any. So pointing out that Celia had at least one previous boyfriend is relevant. [I'd point out that I never ran into a lass who asked me out and then put out on the first date, at least not without cash being involved, but some of you might unkindly suggest an alternative explanation to considering Celia exceptionally eager.]

[Kyronea]

Come on, now. I clarified by viewpoint after that quote, and I never suggested that enjoying sex was wrong. What bothers me is that twenty-somethings like me seem to be expected to have sex, whether casually or in a committed relationship, and the thought that I might be considered a freak because I don't want to, frightens me.

I think it's wonderful that other people are enjoying all life has to offer, but it's not for me. Please stop taking my words as condemnation for people who may not feel as I do. It's not my intention to judge anyone, fictional or otherwise, but if it came across that way, I'm sorry.

Ah, I see. At first I was going to argue against your argument, but now I see you were mainly speaking of yourself.

As a bit of friendly advice(actual friendly here, no sarcasm :smallsmile:) I suggest clarifying your argument when you first post it in the future if it's something like this where it's really you talking about yourself rather than how you think everyone should view it. That should help keep confusion down a tad. (Not entirely, of course, but it still will have an effect.)

As for the main subject of this thread, I was very enlightened by your post, Mr. Burlew, and figured it was that case in any event.

And to be perfectly honest, I really like the liberalized attitude towards sex seen in The Order of the Stick. While I personally am not someone who would go out and have lots of casual sex or anything like that, the fact is that society is far too uptight about the subject and needs to cool down. The tolerance in the OOTS verse is really quite appealing and is a major reason I like the comic.

[Boogastreehouse]

Ah, I see. At first I was going to argue against your argument, but now I see you were mainly speaking of yourself.

As a bit of friendly advice(actual friendly here, no sarcasm :smallsmile:) I suggest clarifying your argument when you first post it in the future if it's something like this where it's really you talking about yourself rather than how you think everyone should view it. That should help keep confusion down a tad. (Not entirely, of course, but it still will have an effect.)

Well, in Lunaya's defense, it's awfully hard sometimes to anticipate what part of your statement is going to be misinterpreted. If it was easy to foresee all misunderstandings ahead of time and clarify them in advance, then there wouldn't be any misunderstandings at all, would there?

This situation has already worked itself out, and really it worked itself out in the best way possible. Both sides expressed their opinions, discussed how they had misinterpreted one another, each expressed respect toward the opinions of the other, and each concluded the conversation feeling happy with the way they were treated (I hope!). I don't think it can really get any better than that, as far as online debates go.

[Starbuck_II]

Julia isn't a slut, she dresses a bit provocatively (likely due to being a female wizard, look at Mialee) but hasn't ever been seen or implied to be having lots of sex or even dating anyone.


Whoa, Mialee isn't a slut: she is a mutant Cricket.
I mean, looking is puke worthy. Have you looked at her?
I mean butter face, much? (but-her-face)

[Silverraptor]

I am appalled at your title sir. (*slaps "A Guy's" face*)

[SPoD]

The problem with this logic is that the real world went the other way. It was back when life was short and uncertain that the criticism of casual sex was loudest. From the girl's view, this is rather clear. A male who is going to die soon is not going to help raise the brat. Jumping in bed with Roy is highly dangerous. It is the modern woman with much more assurance she can nail the lout for child support who is more agreeable.
So we are importing more modern morals when we have the ladies of OOTS being agreeable. Now I can't say I am that eager a fan of social accuracy to call for reluctant females in the story, but a "real" OOTS world would likely feature less action, and be duller as a result.

If you read later in Rich's post, you will see that he mentions full gender equality, clerical magic, and other fantasy aspects as differences from the Real World. I believe it is his position that these things would change what the Real World was like in that time period.

To use your example, the woman in question would be using magical birth control, as mentioned in the prequel book by Eugene, dramatically lowering the risk of having to raise a child. And even if she got pregnant, a woman who has as much freedom and financial resources as a man would be more capable of raising the child alone, especially given that any childhood illness would be banished by a quick stop at the cleric's place.

So, he's saying that in a world with all these safety nets but filled with other deadlier situations, their behavior makes sense.

[Forum Staff]

May a mod please lock this?

Normally, we don't respond to thread-starters simply asking for their threads to be closed, but in this case, I think we'll make an exception.