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JellyPooga
2009-05-02, 10:09 AM
I'm participating in a D&D 3.5 PbP game as a Half-Orc Ranger/Barbarian and I'm trying to plan out his stats for the next few levels. I've got some ideas about what class he's going to take and skill selections, but I just don't know what Feats to give him.

The problem is that it's SRD only - if we were using other materials I wouldn't have a problem at all...there's any number of Feats and Prestige Classes that I could choose from, but being limited to SRD I'm having a little trouble. So I thought I'd ask around and see what advice I could get. Here's his stats so far:


Class (Level): Ranger (1)/Barbarian (2)

STR: 20
DEX: 14
CON: 14
INT: 12
WIS: 8
CHA: 12

Feats: Improved Initiative, Power Attack
Weapons: Glaive, Spiked Gauntlets, Throwing Axe, Daggers

This is unchangable now as play has already started and we've already been in a fight. For his later levels I was originally going to take Ranger to 6 and the rest Barbarian (no PrC), but I ditched that idea because I realised that TWF really is as bad as people make out if you don't have Sneak Attack or some other way of stacking extra damage dice on your attacks. So instead, I had a look around and, due to a background/personality trait, decided to go with a mix of Fighter and Paladin dips with the possibility of the Half-Orc Racial Paragon class. By level 20, I was thinking of him looking (in no particular order) something like:

Ranger (3)/Fighter (2)/Paladin of Freedom (3)/Barbarian (12)

with the possibility of switching out the Fighter levels and 1 Ranger level for 3 levels of Racial Paragon.

Now, I have an inclination to take Cleave, Great Cleave and Combat Reflexes, though that isn't set in stone. I'm also not averse to the idea of taking Improved Unarmed Strike and Improved Grapple, but given that I'm currently using Spiked Gauntlets as a back-up, being unarmed isn't to much of an issue (though being able to get Power Attack damage on my back-up weapon would be nice). Even if I take all of those, that still leaves me with 2 Feats to play with.

-Stunning Fist (if I go the IUS route) isn't really an option because of my Wis penalty.
-The Combat Expertise tree is only an option if I put a point into Int and I didn't want to 'waste' a Feat (i.e. Combat Expertise) to get the goodies that have it as a pre-req (like Improved Trip).
-Improved Bull Rush/Overrun/Sunder are pretty much a waste of time...I might have considered Overrun if it wasn't errata'd that you can't do it as part of a Charge at someone else, but sacrificing your attack to do it seems fruitless.
-He's a melee fighter, so I don't want to mess around investing in PBS et all.
-Dodge, Mobility and Spring Attack are, again, a waste of time.

That pretty much leaves Blind-Fight and Skill Focus...please tell me there's more options...I've scoured the SRD and can't find anything worthwhile (I'm a stranger to front-line melee classes; I usually play Bards, Monks and Rogues, which are a lot easier to cater for).

tyckspoon
2009-05-02, 12:33 PM
When you say SRD only, does that mean the actual SRD (PHB/DMG/MM), or all Open content as collected at d20srd.org? If you're working with d20srd, you can also pick from the Psionic and Divine feats sections; consider Reckless Offense, Stand Still, Hold The Line, and Knock-Down (which would require you to bite the bullet and get that Int point/a +Int item so you can qualify for Expertise and Imp. Trip.) A lot of those deal with Attacks of Opportunity, so you'll probably want Combat Reflexes as well.

JellyPooga
2009-05-02, 01:16 PM
When you say SRD only, does that mean the actual SRD (PHB/DMG/MM), or all Open content as collected at d20srd.org? If you're working with d20srd, you can also pick from the Psionic and Divine feats sections; consider Reckless Offense, Stand Still, Hold The Line, and Knock-Down (which would require you to bite the bullet and get that Int point/a +Int item so you can qualify for Expertise and Imp. Trip.) A lot of those deal with Attacks of Opportunity, so you'll probably want Combat Reflexes as well.

Yeah, I'm talking all open content.

Stand Still would be ok if it weren't for the fact that you deal no damage when you use it (which I don't get at all...why would a longsword be any better than, say, a quarterstaff at stopping someone from moving if you weren't actually hitting them with it? Surely a defensive weapon like a quarterstaff or longspear would be better?).

Hold the Line suffers from "it only works if you're being charged". If it was a flat "when someone moves into a square you threaten", it'd be a good feat, but it's completely negated by someone saying "I'll take a move action and attack" instead of "I'll charge".

Knock-Down I did consider and was very tempted to suck up the Combat Expertise being wasted for it, especially since even at level 3 I'm dealing 14 damage per hit with a glaive power attack, minimum. The only drawback is that it forces me to take the Fighter dip to ensure I don't spend 3 levels with a feat I'm just not using...to be honest, I'll probably end up taking it if only because there's butt-all else!

Reckless Offence I'm not a big fan of. If it were trading AC for Damage, I'd consider it, but my Attack Bonus is high enough as it is...if I don't Power Attack, I'm floating a +8 to +10 to hit now, which I can increase with a charge or flanking if need be. Another +2 isn't going to make a lot of difference, but my AC is only 15 at the best of times (13 when I Rage), so taking a -4 to AC is going to hurt...a lot. Having said that, it might be an option at later levels when my AC is totally irrelevant and the bonus to hit might just mean the difference between hitting or not with my iterative attacks.

What's the verdict on the Spelltouched feats? I don't know if the GM is allowing them and from what I can see they're pretty sub-par, but someone else might have a different opinion...are any of them worth taking?

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-05-02, 01:51 PM
I'd recommend going Ranger 3/ Barbarian 2/ Horizon Walker 7+, then whatever else. I'd get the Archery combat style, but you could get TWF and wield a two-handed weapon mainhand and armor spikes offhand. Definitely take Combat Reflexes, and wear armor spikes regardless so you still threaten adjacent squares when using a reach weapon. Get Aligned and Shifting terrain mastery, and you can take Quicken Spell-Like Ability: Dimension Door as early as level 15, though you wouldn't benefit from it until level 16. Aligned mastery makes you immune to any spell that a creature of any particular alignment is immune to, such as Blasphemy and Holy Word, as well as Symbol spells which are set to allow creatures of a certain alignment to pass.

Most of the Spelltouched feats look like they would be best used by a DM against a player who always uses the same few spells over and over. For a PC, Bladeproof Skin would be useful and there are maybe a few others that could be decent for a spellcaster. Qualifying would be a simple matter of hiring an NPC Wizard or Sorcerer to cast Stoneskin on you, the standard fee (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#spell) would be 530 gp.

It's too bad your Wisdom score is so low, otherwise you would be able to use wands of Ranger spells even with only one level in the class.

JellyPooga
2009-05-02, 02:16 PM
I considered Horizon Walker, but it didn't fit the character that well. He's more of an ex-slave pit-fighter style mercenary (various styles of combat, dirty fighting, etc.) than an expert traveller. The Paladin bit comes in later when he's got a bit of experience under his belt and he starts biting back at the kind of people he used to be owned by. Whilst the DD every 1d4 rounds is mighty tempting, the 5 standard terrain masteries he has to take before that speak to me of learning about things other than how to bash in someones head in the name of freedom! It also means that he'll be limited to a couple of Rages per day as opposed to the 4 or 5 he gets with the build I have in mind. Having said that, the Immunity to Fatigue could be handy and extending that Darkvision to 120ft isn't too shabby either, so I might reconsider taking a 2 to 3 level dip into it.

For his combat style I was going to take TWF just so that if he is disarmed he can go hammer and tongs with his spiked gauntlets (or unarmed attacks if he gets IUS later). Armour Spikes are a definite option though (when he gets some better armour than studded leather), but suffer from getting no bonus damage from Power Attack whilst still sucking up the to hit penalty. I didn't want him to go in for ranged combat beyond chucking his throwing axe and perhaps a dagger before engaging in melee.

Low Wisdom is very much intentional...he's cunning and has a personality like a battering ram (really obvious but hits like a ton of bricks!), but he's also very rash; quick to anger as to please, makes snap judgements and often acts before thinking it through. Magic is not something he has a lot of time for, preferring the steel of his blade to a short stick that goes "phizz!"...in short, he's a typical Barbarian!

Darrin
2009-05-02, 02:34 PM
Yeah, I'm talking all open content.


Does that include the WotC website? If so, consider Headlong Rush for another damage multiplier on charges:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20030301a

Warblade and all of the ToB maneuvers have also been posted on the WotC website.

Devils_Advocate
2009-05-02, 08:43 PM
For his later levels I was originally going to take Ranger to 6 and the rest Barbarian (no PrC), but I ditched that idea because I realised that TWF really is as bad as people make out if you don't have Sneak Attack or some other way of stacking extra damage dice on your attacks.
Well... you could take 4 levels of Rogue and only lose a point of BAB. That would stack with Barbarian for Improved Uncanny Dodge and Trap Sense purposes, and all those skill points could help you to keep your scouting skills up.

If you do go that route, you might want to pick up proficiency with a double weapon, so you can power attack with both hands without eating annoyingly large penalties.

Really, though, I think that the most troublesome part of TWFing is that it only works on a full attack, which is pretty limiting. You can't use it on a charge, for example. Were I DMing, I'd consider house-ruling that you can attack with both hands as a standard action, since that seems more balanced and makes more sense. (If fighting with two weapons lets you make twice as many attacks in the same amount of time on a full attack, why wouldn't the same principle apply to a standard attack? Like, for someone with the Two-Weapon Fighting feat, anyway.)

JellyPooga
2009-05-03, 03:49 AM
Well... you could take 4 levels of Rogue and only lose a point of BAB. That would stack with Barbarian for Improved Uncanny Dodge and Trap Sense purposes, and all those skill points could help you to keep your scouting skills up.

Hmm, a couple of levels of Rogue could work (fits the 'pit-fighter' theme at least), but it also adds another class I'm dipping into...if I'm not careful I'm going to end up with a build that's just dips! It's worth considering though...Sneak Attack, Evasion and an extra 4 skill points per level is mighty tempting.


If you do go that route, you might want to pick up proficiency with a double weapon, so you can power attack with both hands without eating annoyingly large penalties.

Strictly speaking, when wielding a double-weapon for TWF only your 'on hand' attack gets the bonus from Power Attack but both take the to-hit penalty because your 'off-hand' is treated as wielding a light weapon. The only way to get the PA bonus on both hands is to wield two 1-handed weapons, but to keep up with the double PA bonus you get from wielding a 2-handed weapon, you actually need to get Perfect TWF (which isn't SRD) to get as many off-hand attacks as you have on-hand attacks. The only advantage to TWF is that you have two weapon to enchant, so you can potentially get more bonus damage at the cost of a higher chance of missing.


Really, though, I think that the most troublesome part of TWFing is that it only works on a full attack, which is pretty limiting. You can't use it on a charge, for example. Were I DMing, I'd consider house-ruling that you can attack with both hands as a standard action, since that seems more balanced and makes more sense. (If fighting with two weapons lets you make twice as many attacks in the same amount of time on a full attack, why wouldn't the same principle apply to a standard attack? Like, for someone with the Two-Weapon Fighting feat, anyway.)

There is a (non-SRD) feat that does that; Dual Strike or somesuch. It's in Complete Warrior.