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kemmotar
2009-05-02, 12:35 PM
hey all, I remember there was a really great D&D alignment test with some really funny descriptions. A friend of mine is making his own alignment test but we can't seem to find the original descriptions.

So, how would you describe each alignment in a way that is both clear and hella funny?

Oracle_Hunter
2009-05-03, 03:08 AM
Batman says it best (http://encyclopediadramatica.com/Image:Batman_Alignment.jpg)

Zhalath
2009-05-03, 06:27 PM
About system:
LG: The system exists to help everyone.
NG: The system exists. I prefer my own way.
CG: The system doesn't help people. I help people
LN: The system exists because we need systems.
TN: Yeah, there's a system. It's ok.
CN: The system sucks.
LE: The system exists to serve me
NE: The system doesn't work, but I don't care.
CE: The system prevents me from taking whatever I want. SMASH

The Rose Dragon
2009-05-03, 06:43 PM
LG: We must share the ice cream with others, for it benefits humanity and the society.
NG: The ice cream must be shared with others, above all else, for the sake of ice cream.
CG: Fight the oppressive ice cream factories, for they charge too much for our right to share ice cream!

LN: Ice cream is a privilege, but we protect that privilege.
N: Ice cream? Does it help me?
CN: If you can't fight for your ice cream, you don't deserve ice cream.

LE: Ice cream is a valuable tool in controlling and enslaving others for they will want its delicious creamy taste.
NE: I will do anything for ice cream - maim, 'mail and murder.
CE: I'm sorry, I was too busy kicking you in the head for having ice cream.

Juggernaut1981
2009-05-03, 11:31 PM
Alignment + 'The System'
LG: The system is the best way to give the most good to the most people, we should protect the system and follow the system.
NG: Systems are all fine and dandy, but if the system doesn't change to keep on doing good... it isn't good.
CG: The system doesn't love me man. The system is a way to keep the little guy down man. Do good and screw the system man!
LN: The system is the system. Next question...
TN: The system is the opposite of chaos; they cannot exist in isolation.
CN: Is the system shiny? I want my system to have red paint and wings!!!
LE: Aah the system, how I love oppressing the masses with it. I love how it protects me trampling them. The system... *sigh*
NE: Sure, the system is handy and when it isn't my +5 dagger coated in poison solves the rest of the issues.
CE: Systems are an inefficient way for me to express my pure, unadulterated rage and murderous hatred. Excuse me while I execute this minion.

Alignments + Icecream
LG: Icecream is a blessing, it should be legalised and those who have it should be allowed to enjoy it with safety.
NG: Icecream is a blessing, we should make icecream and give it away to all.
CG: Icecream is a blessing, if someone has more than they could need we should take it and give it to those who have none.
LN: Icecream is made from legal products and does not contradict law.
TN: Icecream is icecream, it will melt, you can freeze it, it indirectly comes from cows.
CN: Icecream is fun to throw.
LE: Icecream is a great way to make money from children.
NE: Icecream is a great way to convince children to come into my caravan.
CE: Icecream is good to poison, then throw at city officials. Especially if it is made with extra ice and not so much cream.

Winthur
2009-05-04, 10:24 AM
NE: Icecream is a great way to convince children to come into my caravan.

Michael Jackson, neutral evil bard?

Xuincherguixe
2009-05-04, 10:52 AM
I love Batman kicking a guy in the back of the head for eating Ice Cream.

Still, Chaotic Evil is about more than murder and violence. Really, if you reduce it to that, it loses a lot of it's fun.

Tengu_temp
2009-05-04, 11:06 AM
Crossing the street on lights:

LG: Makes sure everyone crosses the street when the light is green and obeys the safety rules.
NG: Helps the old woman cross the street when the light is green.
CG: Doesn't pay attention to the light, but crosses the street only when it's safe.
LN: Always crosses the street on green light and stops on red light, even if it changes while he's in the middle of the street.
N: Crosses the street the way he wants to. Why are you butting into his business? Leave him alone.
N (AD&D edition): Keeps a notebook where he writes down the number of times he crossed the street on red and green light, and makes sure these numbers are equal.
CN: Crosses the street randomly - on green light, on red light, diagonally, lengthwise... Sometimes changes his mind and direction in the middle.
LE: Will kill you if you cross the street on a red light.
NE: Picks the pockets of people waiting for the light to change to green.
CE: Pushes people under the cars.

streakster
2009-05-04, 12:57 PM
LG: "I'll kill you - for justice!"
NG: "I'll kill you because you're evil!"
CG: "I'll kill you, you tyrant!"

LN: "I'll kill you - for disorderly conduct!"
N: "I'll kill you!" "Why?" "Meh."
CN: "I'll kill you!" Why?" "Why not?"

LE: "I'll kill you as a part of my eeeevil plan!"
NE: "I'll kill you - for murder!"
CE: "I'll kill you - For Pony!"

Riffington
2009-05-04, 07:54 PM
LG: All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.
LN: The bureaucracy is expanding to meet the needs of the expanding bureaucracy.
LE: Arbeit macht frei.

NG: Love thy neighbor as thyself; the rest is just commentary. Now go and study.
N: For every reaction, there is an equal and opposite government program.
NE: From each according to his ability; to each according to his need.

CG: Live for no man, nor ask any man to live for you.
CN: An you harm none, do as thou wilt.
CE: Politics is when you say you are going to do one thing while intending to do another. Then you do neither what you said nor what you intended.

Zaq
2009-05-04, 07:59 PM
NE: From each according to his ability; to each according to his need.

You're kidding, right? How can anyone other than maybe Senator McCarthy call that sentiment neutral evil?

Flickerdart
2009-05-04, 08:02 PM
CN: An you harm none, do as thou wilt.
CNs don't give a whit about harming some. Or many, or most, or all. They just don't go out of their way to do it.

Riffington
2009-05-04, 08:44 PM
Flicker: if you do stuff that may well hurt others without caring whether it does, you are doing evil. Neutral people avoid harming others, they just don't go out of their way to help them.


Zaq: because it denies people one of the most fundamental rights: the right to work at a job of your choice and enjoy the fruits of your own labors. Not coincidentally, it is responsible for tens of millions of death.

Would you rather some other quotations by the archetypal leader of that movement?
“Ideas are more powerful than guns. We would not let our enemies have guns, why should we let them have ideas."
“Death solves all problems - no man, no problem.”
“Gratitude is a sickness suffered by dogs.”
"The greatest delight is to mark one's enemy, prepare everything, avenge oneself thoroughly, and then go to sleep."

Zaq
2009-05-04, 09:14 PM
Just because a [GOOD/EVIL] person said something, does not make it automatically [GOOD/EVIL]. (Not that I think too many flesh-and-blood people fall into good or evil, but that's beside the point.) Some of those other quotes, sure, I'll buy neutral evil, particularly "no man, no problem." The original? No way.

You claim that "it denies people one of the most fundamental rights: the right to work at a job of your choice and enjoy the fruits of your own labors." I disagree. Sure, hardcore theoretical communism denies you that, but the "from each..." statement does not define, and is not limited to, hardcore theoretical communism. Indeed, on its own it implies giving what you can to those who need it. If anything, that's true neutral, lawful neutral, or neutral good, everyone working together for a common benefit. It doesn't tell you what you can be or what your job is, it simply implores you to care for others as you are able and promises the same for you. How is that possibly evil? Yes, it was co-opted by a series of political movements that had no regard for rights, decency, or the lives of others, but the acts committed by those regimes were not a result of "from each/to each."

There's a whoooooole lot of cultural baggage that comes along with it, but the "from each..." quote, on its own, is very very far from neutral evil. If you want to call the Stalinist regime (or similar ones; Stalin was hardly the only one involved in this whole mess) evil, I won't argue, but just because they nominally followed the "from each/to each" ethos (they didn't, by the way) does not make the sentiment itself evil.

Calinero
2009-05-04, 09:15 PM
Please don't let an amusing thread get locked because it descended into a debate over Communism.

Riffington
2009-05-04, 10:03 PM
Zaq, we don't need to have a debate on whether voluntarily sharing with others is good or evil (it's good). Nor do we need to debate how Communism could be reimagined to work differently.

Every society (including evil ones) picks attractive messages. "Arbeit macht frei" is not an evil idea. Work can make you free. But it's become associated with a vile historical usage. The "from each" quotation has been similarly sullied.

Devils_Advocate
2009-05-05, 12:06 AM
LG: Egalitarian. "For justice!"
NG: Utilitarian. "For joy!"
CG: Libertarian. "For freedom!"
LN: Authoritarian. "For honor!"
N: Naturalistic. "For survival!"
CN: Anarchistic. "For independence!"
LE: Chauvinistic. "For vengeance!"
NE: Sadistic. "For suffering!"
CE: Barbaric. "For terror!"


You're kidding, right? How can anyone other than maybe Senator McCarthy call that sentiment neutral evil?
If everyone is required to contribute the maximum that they can and receive the minimum that they require, people's lives are going to be unnecessarily sucky; basically optimized to suck, in fact. In times of scarcity it may be good policy, but otherwise it sounds to me like making people's lives as unpleasant as possible while keeping them alive. That seems pretty evil.


CNs don't give a whit about harming some. Or many, or most, or all. They just don't go out of their way to do it.
Well, I read it as all non-harmful acts being allowed. It doesn't imply that any particular harmful acts, or any acts at all, are prohibited.

But if you're saying that Chaotic Neutral characters should be willing to harm anyone... Um, no? "People who are neutral with respect to good and evil have compunctions against killing the innocent". Even if that's not definitionally Neutral, it's what's typical. Probably because if you actually lack any compunctions against harming any innocent, you're pretty likely to make Evil choices and not Good ones, and thus be Evil.


Every society (including evil ones) picks attractive messages. "Arbeit macht frei" is not an evil idea. Work can make you free. But it's become associated with a vile historical usage. The "from each" quotation has been similarly sullied.
So, wait. Are you saying, then, that you associated some of the quotes you gave with what you judged to be the alignments of the people who said them, rather than categorizing them based on the sentiment the text expresses?

If so, it seems like perhaps you're going out of your way to inject commentary on real-world politics into this thread, maybe in order to spark debate.

This forum really isn't for that. (Seriously. It's in the forum rules.)

Riffington
2009-05-05, 12:54 AM
So, wait. Are you saying, then, that you associated some of the quotes you gave with what you judged to be the alignments of the people who said them, rather than categorizing them based on the sentiment the text expresses?


Not exactly. I was saying that the sentiment that text expresses can never be judged in a vacuum, but also by the cultural understandings of the reader. "Icecream is a great way to convince children to come into my caravan" would by literal reading be nonevil (of course there is nothing wrong with bringing children to a place with icecream). Read in this century, it's correctly judged an evil sentiment because we all "know" what sort of person lures children into a van with candy.

Juggernaut1981
2009-05-05, 02:05 AM
Alignments + Quotes

LG: "Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country" - JFK
"Good order is the foundation of all things." - Edmund Burke

NG: "A good head and a good heart are always a formidable combination." - Nelson Mandela

CG: "I have a dream..." (you should all know the rest of that speech) - Martin Luther King

LN: "I was merely following the orders of my superiors" - The Neuremburg Defence... a justification for why German Officers killed Jews during WWII. It was not accepted by the Neuremburg Court

TN: "In every good there is a bit of evil. In every evil there is a bit of good" - Movie: Two Hands (in reference to the yin-yang logo)

CN: "Heads you get to live, tails... you don't" - Two-Face/Harvey Dent from the Dark Knight

LE: "Son, we live in a world that has walls and those walls need to be guarded by men with guns. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lieutenant Weinberg? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for Santiago and curse the Marines; you have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know: that Santiago's death, while tragic, probably saved lives and that my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties you want me on that wall, you need me on that wall." - Colonel Jessop in A Few Good Men (acted by Jack Nicholson).... in my personal view one of the best summations of a Lawful Evil guardian ever.

NE: "Greed, for want of a better word, is good my friends" - 'Gordon Gecko'

CE: "See all you need to do to get most people to return to their animal nature is to throw just a little chaos. An explosion here, a killing there and everyone shows you their true colours..." - The Joker (acted by Heath Ledger)

Riffington
2009-05-05, 05:05 AM
Juggernaut: you know your "LN" and "CN" are LE and CE respectively, right?

Kurald Galain
2009-05-05, 05:13 AM
LG: You should keep a puppy but you must take very good care of it.
NG: You should keep a puppy because puppies are cute.
CG: Puppies are cute but they deserve to be free!
LN: Your puppy must be properly registered.
TN: I don't care about puppies.
CN: You should keep a boa constrictor because boa constrictores are cute. Also, strawberry.
LE: If you treat your puppy badly, you will be executed.
NE: Kick the puppy.
CE: Puppies taste great with a bit of sauce on the side.

...

Saph
2009-05-05, 06:58 AM
Quotes for each, from Watership Down. :)

Lawful Good:

"They're all right," replied Holly. "Come on, Bigwig, let me take your place now. You need a rest."
"Can't," panted Bigwig. "You couldn't get past me here - no room - and if I go back that brute'll follow - next thing he'd be loose in the burrows. You leave it to me. I know what I'm doing."
Suddenly Woundwort spoke. "Thlayli," he said, "why do you throw your life away? I can send one fresh rabbit after another into this run if I choose. You're too good to be killed. Come back to Efrafa. I promise I'll give you the command of any Mark you like."
"Silflay hraka, u embleer rah!"

Neutral Good:

"Very well," said Woundwort. "These are the terms. You will give back all the does who ran from Efrafa and you will hand over the deserters Thlayli and Blackavar to my Owsla."
"No, we can't agree to that. I've come to suggest something altogether different and better for us both. A rabbit has two ears; a rabbit has two eyes, two nostrils. Our two warrens ought to be like that. They ought to be together - not fighting. We ought to make other warrens between us - start one between here and Efrafa. You wouldn't lose by that, you'd gain. We both would . . . Rabbits have enough enemies as it is. They ought not to make more among themselves."

Chaotic Good:

"All the world will be your enemy, Prince with a Thousand Enemies, and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you, digger, listener, runner, prince with the swift warning. Be cunning and full of tricks and your people will never be destroyed." And El-ahrairah knew then that although he would not be mocked, yet Frith was his friend. And every evening, when Frith has done his day's work and lies calm and easy in the red sky, El-ahrairah and his children and his children's children come out of their holes and feed and play in his sight, for they are his friends and he has promised them that they can never be destroyed.

Lawful Neutral:

"Bargains, bargains, El-ahrairah. There is not a day or a night but a doe offers her life for her kittens, or some honest captain of Owsla his life for the Chief Rabbit. But there is no bargain, because here, what is, is what must be."

Neutral:

"Er - Hazel," said Hawkbit, looking past him into the face of the dreary, black cliff. "I - er - that is to say we - er - feel that we - well, that we can't go on like this. We've had enough of it."
He stopped. "Go on," said Speedwell, "or shall I?"
"More than enough," said Hawkbit, with a kind of foolish importance.

Chaotic Neutral:

"Hraka one end, jokes the other," said Bluebell. "I used to roll a joke along the ground and we'd both follow it. That was how we kept going."

Neutral Evil:

Woundwort was about to go up the run himself when he found Vervain beside him. For a moment he thought that he was going to say that he had killed Thlayli. A second glance showed him otherwise.
"I've - er - got some grit in my eye, sir," said Vervain."I'll just get it out and then I'll have another go at him."
Without a word Woundwort went back to the far end of the Honeycomb. Vervain followed. "You coward," said Woundwort, in his ear. "If my authority goes, where will yours be in half a day? Aren't you the most hated officer in Efrafa? That rabbit's got to be killed."

Lawful Evil:

Woundwort alone stood his ground. As the rest fled in all directions he remained where he was, bristling and snarling, bloody-fanged and bloody-clawed. The dog, coming suddenly upon him face to face, recoiled a moment, startled and confused. Then it sprang forward: and even as they ran, his Owsla could hear the General's raging, squealing cry, "Come back, you fools! Dogs aren't dangerous! Come back and fight!"

Chaotic Evil:

Can't find a good one. Give me a suggestion. :P

- Saph

Thanatos 51-50
2009-05-05, 07:26 AM
CN: An you harm none, do as thou wilt.

I don't know, the Rede (or, at least that part, quite a bit of some has quite Lawful tendancies) strikes me as more TN than CN, with specific docterine condeming Anything Evil.

Kurald Galain
2009-05-05, 08:13 AM
"Come back, you fools! Dogs aren't dangerous! Come back and fight!"
That's got to be the best rabbit quote ever.


Chaotic Evil:

Can't find a good one. Give me a suggestion. :P
The humans in the book come across as chaotic evil - varelse, even.

Juggernaut1981
2009-05-05, 11:13 PM
Juggernaut: you know your "LN" and "CN" are LE and CE respectively, right?

LN = They were obeying orders with no judgement on the morality of their actions... they were behaving completely Lawfully. They followed an order from a superior. Lawful Neutral.

CN = That decision is made with no moral weight. Pure chance determines the other persons survival. For Harvey Dent (as Two Face) he was not there to create evil, he was not there to perform evil. Chance was going to be the "judge" of that person's actions... an attitude of "every event is by chance and nothing happens for a reason". A less "shiny happy" CN, but still CN.

Fiery Diamond
2009-05-05, 11:55 PM
Let me try.

LG: You there, with the pointy stick! Pointy sticks aren't allowed, they could poke someone's eye out!
NG: Hey, you with the pointy stick! I'm cool with it, so long as you don't do anything dangerous, but it might be a good idea to blunt that thing before you run into someone important.
CG: I see you have a pointy stick! I've got one too! They shouldn't try to take pointy sticks away from everyone; it's not like we'll hurt anybody.

LN: I've caught you, you little rulebreaker! No pointy sticks allowed! Them's the rules!
TN: Meh, pointy sticks.
CN: I've got a pointy stick! You've got a pointy stick! Now let's go poke something! And then get ice cream!

LE: Pointy sticks... no one shall have them, so they cannot defend themselves against the dangers that will come.
NE: Pointy stick? I've got one, but you don't, so you have to do what I say!
CE: Pointy sticks for everyone! Now let's play a game - pointy stick poke tag!

Stormthorn
2009-05-06, 12:27 AM
CN: An you harm none, do as thou wilt.

Thats more Chaotic Good or Neutral really.

Chaotic N is more "Nothing is true, everything is permitted."

Devils_Advocate
2009-05-06, 09:00 PM
I don't know, the Rede (or, at least that part, quite a bit of some has quite Lawful tendancies) strikes me as more TN than CN, with specific docterine condeming Anything Evil.
How is instructing people to follow their individual proclivities not Chaotic? Maybe if you consider commandments to be inherently Lawful, but otherwise I'm not seeing it.


LN = They were obeying orders with no judgement on the morality of their actions... they were behaving completely Lawfully. They followed an order from a superior. Lawful Neutral.
Evil deeds don't become non-Evil because someone else told you to do them.

But I'm guessing that you're of the mind that Neutral persons can do a boatload of Evil deeds with no balancing Good deeds, so long as they would commit a similar surplus of Good deeds if placed under different circumstances.

Others take the view that alignment is the choices you make, not a "moral nature" that determines them.


CN = That decision is made with no moral weight. Pure chance determines the other persons survival. For Harvey Dent (as Two Face) he was not there to create evil, he was not there to perform evil. Chance was going to be the "judge" of that person's actions... an attitude of "every event is by chance and nothing happens for a reason". A less "shiny happy" CN, but still CN.
If you only kill people half the time, that just means that you're only half as Evil as you could be. If you alternate between taking lives and saving lives, that's different, but I don't think that Two-Face really operated like that. (But I'm not extensively familiar with his behavior, so I'm not sure.) Refraining from Evil is merely Neutral, not Good, and Evil alignment doesn't mean doing Evil at every possible opportunity.

In any case, can you agree that people who do roughly equal amounts of Good and Evil would be better examples of the Neutral alignments than people who primarily do Evil things?


Chaotic N is more "Nothing is true, everything is permitted."
"What alignment is my character if he just does whatever the hell he wants?"

"That depends rather a great deal on what he wants to do."

Harperfan7
2009-05-06, 10:15 PM
I'm pretty sure that "If it harm none, do what you will" is Chaotic Good. It's pretty much freedom + altruism (respect for life, going out of your way to not harm anyone). That's why it's in my sig...

You might say that it's CN or TN because it doesn't say anything about helping others, but really, would a neutral not do something (anything?) just because somebody else would be worse off for it? I don't know. It seems CG to me.

Devils_Advocate
2009-05-06, 11:40 PM
Well, your typical Neutral person occasionally harms others is some ways, but so does your typical Good person. Dedicated, hardcore non-Evilness could be a part of a hardcore Good or hardcore Neutral philosophy. The latter would presumably also embrace dedicated, hardcore non-Goodness.

Anyway, that quote doesn't forbid harmful actions, it just permits all harmless actions. I don't see how you get much more CN than that. (Permitting everything is edging towards Evil.)

Baalthazaq
2009-05-07, 12:07 AM
Divide society:
Those in control.
Everyone else.

If you think you are more important than "everyone else", you're evil. (I'd kill them for me).
If you think you are less important than "everyone else", you're good. (I'd die for them).
If you think you are equal. You're Neutral. (I'd do neither (apathy, DnD 3.X), or both (active TN, ADND)).


If you think you are better than "those in control", you're chaotic. (I shouldn't obey them).
If you think you are worse than "those in control", you're lawful. (I should obey them).
If you think you're equal, you're neutral. (Either).


That's pretty much how I see DnD Alignment.
LG = Typical Paladin. For King and Queen, but for the people.
NG = For king and queen... until they turn out to be evil, in which case screw em.
CG = Robin hood. Against the top, for the bottom.

LN = For King and Queen. Meh to the people.
N = For nobody.
CN = For blue! Or Chicken! I ate my... oh no there it is...HAHAHAHA!!!

LE = Average Powergamer. The rules are there for me!
NE = The rules are there... if I need em.
CE = Average toddler. Me Me Me Me Me!!!

tpnmvz
2009-05-07, 01:51 AM
How about taking a moral dilemma and seeing how each alignment would react? It would deal with serious matter, but I don't think it wouldn't be inappropriate since the answers are debatable and the questions common in ethic debates.

To start, a simple one:


An elderly relative has a terminal illness and asks you to help them end their life. Helping them commit suicide is against the law, but your relative begs you. Would you assist with their suicide?

LG: "No. I cannot murder even if they wanted to."
NG: "I will try to convince them to reconsider, but I may not have the heart to keep them suffering."
CG: "Yes. It is what they want and I can't let them suffer any longer."

LN: "No. I cannot break the law."
TN: "This isn't a decision I should interfere with."
CN: "Yes, if that is their wish."

LE: "No. Their illness is their burden to suffer, not mine, and I won't break the law doing so."
NE: "Well, they would die either way so it doesn't matter much to me."
CE: "How could they be so selfish imposing such a decision on me. I'll let them die/pull the plug."

I know some of these answers may feel like a cop-out, but I like thinking how so and so alignments would answer to these.

EDIT: On retrospect, I think my initial CE post was not too well-developed so I edited it.

Riffington
2009-05-07, 04:53 AM
but really, would a neutral not do something (anything?) just because somebody else would be worse off for it?

Yes. If you habitually do things that you know may harm someone else (even if that totally wasn't the point), then you're evil.

To get to good, you need to go out of your way to help others. Certainly, your sigquote can be good if you just add a little something extra too. But if your preference is to just smoke pipeweed all day... well, there's nothing evil about that, but nothing good either.

Athaniar
2009-05-07, 08:03 AM
My take:

The kingdom suffers from famine. You are a guard, which means you aren’t too well paid, but you are required to arrest anyone caught stealing supplies. One day, you catch a peasant who is stealing from the private food stockpile of a wealthy (and corrupt) noble. When you confront him, he claims that his family is starving, and that he only takes what he needs to survive. You know that this man is generally known as an honest individual, and that he is most likely telling the truth. What do you do?

LG: I return what he stole and send him on his way, but warn him that if he is caught stealing again, he will be turned in.
NG: I let him take what he needs, at least this time. After all, the common man is suffering, while the nobles have way more than they need.
CG: I let him take what he needs and a little more, and take some for myself too. This corrupt oppressor has way too much food for one man.
LN: I apprehend him and turn him in to the rightful authorities. After all, it is my duty.
N: I do whatever I feel is right at the moment, but nothing extreme.
CN: I help him steal. Who cares about these silly laws of society, anyway?
LE: I apprehend him with force and turn him in to the noble, claiming he resisted arrest, and then try to gain some favour with said noble.
NE: I beat him up and/or kill him (I don’t care much for which), and the run off with what he stole and some food I steal, too.
CE: I kill him and take and take as much food as I can carry, and then torch the place.

also

The Law:

LG: The Law does a pretty good work keeping the world just and fair.
NG: The Law is good as long as it works and doesn’t further evil.
CG: The Law is supposed to be good, but there are times when it doesn’t work.
LN: The Law exists for a good reason.
N: The Law works, I guess.
CN: The Law exists to be broken.
LE: The Law is a useful tool.
NE: The Law works as long as it doesn’t stand in my way.
CE: The Law? I spit on The Law!

For fun, replace "The Law" with anything else.

Devils_Advocate
2009-05-07, 02:15 PM
Baalthazaq, I wouldn't call it a matter of perceived importance or perceived superiority. You can choose to make sacrifices for individuals of perceived lesser importance than you, exploit those of perceived greater importance than you, disobey people you perceive as superior to you, or obey people you perceive as inferior.

Good alignment means helping others, which doesn't have to include sacrificing your life for them, though it might. I really don't like the idea that Good is about devaluing yourself, either instead of or in addition to valuing others. (Which means that to the full extent that altruism includes self-denigration, I dislike the idea that Good is inherently altruistic instead of simply benevolent.) Someone who doesn't worry much about what will happen to anyone, including himself, seems like he shouldn't be the same alignment as someone greatly concerned with the welfare of everyone, including herself.


Yes. If you habitually do things that you know may harm someone else (even if that totally wasn't the point), then you're evil.
Alignment Evil is pretty much synonymous with cruelty. Read the description of it, and it makes it pretty clear that evil for evil's sake is just a subcategory of Evil alignment: "Some evil creatures simply have no compassion for others and kill without qualms if doing so is convenient. Others actively pursue evil, killing for sport or out of duty to some evil deity or master." I think that the deliberate pursuit of Evil is "Vile" alignment.

Cruelty can take three forms:

1. The above-mentioned hurting of others for the sake of hurting them (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ForTheEvulz). More likely to be Chaotic if for the sake of sadism, more likely to be Lawful if for the sake of vengeance, but in any case, Evil. Obviously.

2. Hurting others as a means to an end. Killing the guard to the treasury or taking a high-paying assassination contract so you can get a bunch of money to spend on hookers and blow is Evil.

3. Hurting others as an undesired but foreseeable side effect of your actions. If you steal the mystical magical gem that protects the kingdom from invading monsters so you can hock it for great big piles o' bling to finance your early retirement, that's pretty Evil, even though you're not harming anyone directly.

2 and 3 become a lot murkier when you're pursuing an end that is itself Good rather than Neutral. Under what circumstances, if any, is it non-Evil to kill to protect innocents, for example? Why? The alignment section of the PHB at best hints at answers to such questions.

Also, you could argue that foreseeable Good consequences of even purely malevolently intended actions really ought to mitigate their Evilness as much as foreseeable Evil consequences mitigate the Goodness of purely benevolently intended actions. It depends on whether you think Good and Evil should be actual opposites of each other, or just mutually exclusive.


You are a guard, which means you aren’t too well paid, but you are required to arrest anyone caught stealing supplies.
Chaotic: No I ain't, I never signed up to do the Man's dirty work. Fight the powah!!

Some laws are unjust,

LG: but we should still follow them to the extent that they can be followed without harming others, because society collapses into anarchy if people decide for themselves which laws to follow. But we should also work to change them.
NG: so we should therefore refrain from obeying them while working to eliminate them.
CG: so we should openly resist them together, to show those in power that they cannot hope to enforce them.
LN: so those responsible for them should be replaced, as legally and honorably as possible, with others who know how to govern properly.
N: but it is simply not feasible to challenge all of the world's injustices. If those in power aren't wronging me or my friends, it's really not my fight.
CN: so I try not to pay them much heed.
LE: but it's not about absolute justice, it's about what's good for me and my group. So longs as the law is unjust in our favor, it's great, but if it works against us, those responsible had better watch out...
NE: which is funny so long as I'm not the one getting screwed, and a great justification to disobey or hurt those who made or enforce them, in case you ever need one!
CE: and I'll kill anyone who tries to force me to follow them. Heck, I'll kill anyone who tries to force me to do anything!

Athaniar
2009-05-07, 02:41 PM
Chaotic: No I ain't, I never signed up to do the Man's dirty work. Fight the powah!!

In this case, assume that characters unwilling to normally enlist as guards were forcibly drafted.

Faulty
2009-05-07, 02:50 PM
LG: Egalitarian. "For justice!"
NG: Utilitarian. "For joy!"
CG: Libertarian. "For freedom!"
LN: Authoritarian. "For honor!"
N: Naturalistic. "For survival!"
CN: Anarchistic. "For independence!"
LE: Chauvinistic. "For vengeance!"
NE: Sadistic. "For suffering!"
CE: Barbaric. "For terror!"

To use a structure like that.

LG: The Defender. The community is more important than the individual. Things such as government and tradition are there to defend good and the people.
NG: The Moderate Egalitarian. There should be a balance between the community and the individual. Things such as government and tradition can be useful in the defense and propagation of good. If government and tradition inhibit good, they can be disobeyed sometimes, and should be changed.
CG: The Anarchist. The individual is more important than the community. What benefits the individual, benefits the community. Things such as government and tradition inhibit good and the individual, and goodness can only thrive in a free environment where the only prohibition is performing evil acts.
LN: The Authoritarian. Government and tradition should be followed because they are the law, and are better for the greater good. Following the law and tradition, or orders (such as in the case of cops and soldiers), is important, and that's all you need to do is to be a "good person"; going out of the way to help others is unnecessary.
N: The Indifferent. Neither the community nor individual, tradition and government nor freedom matters more than the other. As long as no one bothers you, you won't bother others.
CN: The Individualist or Egoist. The individual is more important than the community, but your only concern is yourself and your own. Freedom is to be valued, but helping others achieve freedom or happiness is unnecessary. While you don't want to hurt others, you care more about your own freedom than the freedom of those you don't care about.
LE: The Tyrant. Government, tradition and other such forms of organization are important because they allow you to accumulate power. Advancement up the ladder and the accumulation of power are the only truth, strength is the only virtue, and stepping on the necks of others is acceptable.
NE: The Ruthless. The community and the individual don't matter, the good doesn't matter and neither does sticking to yourself. If helping others gets you what you want, you do it, if sticking to yourself helps you get what you want, you do, if hurting others gets you what you want, you hurt. The only thing that matters is getting what you want, everyone and everything else be damned.
CE: The Sociopath. Order doesn't matter and does anything to hold you back. Pleasure comes from doing whatever you want, however you want. Antisocial behaviour is enjoyable and should be pursued for its own sake.

Justin B.
2009-05-07, 04:33 PM
Just for fun, I'll throw down my interpretation.

LG: The system is in place to help people, if it ceases to help people, there is also a system for modifying the system. These should be used.

NG: The system cannot understand the complexity of human nature, it can be a force for good, but we should be ready to disreguard it whenever it ceases doing good.

CG: The system causes more harm than good by oppressing the liberties of people.

LN: The system is absolute, do what the system says.

N: System or not, good and evil are entirely subjective. People should simply do as they will.

CN: No system is a good thing, good and evil are subjective, but a system is a real entity that oppresses and should be stopped.

LE: The system should be set up to benefit me. The system is the best way to gain what I want.

NE: I take what I want, and damn everyone who gets in my way. If I can work the system, fine, if not, I'll do what I have to.

CE: A system merely gets in my way. It is alot of unnecessary rules that I resent, and I do not need.

Nai_Calus
2009-05-08, 12:04 PM
LG: I'll help you, as long as it's lawful to do so.
NG: I'll help you however I reasonably can.
CG: I'll help you, even if I have to break every law in the books to do so.

LN: I'll help you if it is required of me by the law.
N: I'll help you if if it seems necessary for my own survival.
CN: I'll help you if I feel like it and it helps me in some way.

LE: I'll help you if it doesn't violate the law and serves my purposes, so I can collect blackmail material on you.
NE: I'll help you, but only if it helps me get ahead of you in some way.
CE: I'll help you... So I can kill you myself.

endoperez
2009-05-08, 01:10 PM
LG :smallsigh:: I'm never going to tell a lie.
NG :smallfrown:: I'm never going to make you cry.
CG :smallwink: : I won't let you down.

LN :smallannoyed:: I'm never going to give up.
TN :smallyuk:: Don't you tell me how I'm feeling!
CN :smallcool:: We know the game - and we're going to play it!

LE :smallmad:: I know the rules and so will you.
NE :smallfurious:: I'm going to make you... understand.
CE :xykon:: "You wouldn't get this from any other guy." (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYmeDvwF07c&feature=related)

Albonor
2009-05-08, 01:42 PM
Faced with a wife beater:

LG: what you did was wrong, did you ever think about the consequences for her? to others? To your contribution to the world? I'm taking you in.

NG: What you did was evil. You don't have any concern for others do you? I'm exposing you and telling the cops.

CG: You really are an a*****e. You give me your confession right now cause I won't bother to go through a trial for a scum like you.

LN: That's...a criminal offense. Not by a small margin. Good thing, we live in a place where due process will remove you for years in hope you take the time to become a civilized citizen.

N: If you had done that to my familiy I would be at your throat. You better stop now before I fear they are next. And never come near them.

CN: Listen, I don't think it's any of my business, I don't know her. If she says she loves you anyway...it's her choice. But maaaan....you okay man?

LE: 1)B**** won't listen. I'M the man of the house.
2) I think I'll ask for you to be hanged. I'll teach a lesson to other smartasses like you.

NE: 1)What did you say b****?!?!
2) hehehehe. Why? Because her uncle says hi worm! (BANG)

CE: 1) Dunno, her sister turned me down so I had to pass my frustration on someone! And they look alike so...
2) Listen, you let me a go with the missus and I don't care.

Faulty
2009-05-08, 02:26 PM
CE: 1) Dunno, her sister turned me down so I had to pass my frustration on someone! And they look alike so...

For some reason I found this pretty funny.

Albonor
2009-05-08, 08:21 PM
Yeah, I think that makes both of us horrible people. Like, yuck kids...sorry

Trizap
2009-05-08, 08:35 PM
LG: everyone should get an equal amount of candy, but not enough for it to in danger of their health.
NG: candy for everyone! here, enemy I'll give you candy if you be my friend! remember to share the candy with everyone!
CG: hey everyone here's a bunch of candy I stole from that jerk! lets eat!
LN: I'll only give you candy if you follow the rules
TN: Cool I got candy.
CN: DUDE! I Found some candy!!! OM NOM NOM!
LE: Give me all of your candy or be executed
NE: yoink! my candy now, bitches!
CE: MY CANDY! *kills you and eats candy*

Devils_Advocate
2009-05-08, 10:05 PM
Lawful Good: "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few."
Neutral Good: "'Helping others is the highest good'? Friend, it is the only good."
Chaotic Good: "If you love someone, set them free."
Lawful Neutral: "Let justice be done, though the heavens fall!"
Neutral: "What? You can't over-dry laundry. It's like if you shoot someone and then hang him, he's not over-dead. You can't over-die, and you can't over-dry."
Chaotic Neutral: "I was uncool before being uncool was cool."
Lawful Evil: "You killed my father. Prepare to die."
Neutral Evil: "Hee hee! Your pain is funny because you're not me!"
Chaotic Evil: "Oh, human sacrifice, is there anything you CAN'T do?"

Harperfan7
2009-05-08, 10:57 PM
Sir, are you insinuating that Inigo Montoya was a hitler wannabe?

Devils_Advocate
2009-05-08, 11:57 PM
No, I'm insinuating that harming someone in order to avenge a great wrong he did to one's kin is, at least by default, both honorable and cruel. If your main goal in life is to kill a guy, you're probably not Good. (Killing in order to achieve some other goal is a whole 'nother story.)

It's been a while since I watched The Princess Bride, but didn't we first meet Inigo because he's working with a kidnapper? And his job was basically to kill people who got in their way, at least in part? Maybe I'm completely misremembering the details, but I don't think so.

Dark Herald
2009-05-09, 12:18 AM
In a movie, all of the following archtypes could be the protagonist. Examples should be easy to think of without me listing some that might not be universally accepted, but do remember that people cheer for crooks and murders if they are painted in the right light.

Generic Heros:
LG: Police detective. By the books, but also in it to capture criminals. Uncoruptable, not doing anything technically illegal. Faith that the law will provide for the common good.
NG: Nice person. Most average people are like this in movies, especially the ones for kids. The law is nice, but it's ok to break it if you don't get caught and it doesn't harm anyone, for example Jwalking or giving unapproved treats to kids in the hospital. Nothing done out of spite.
CG: Smuggler. Does what he does for profit, doesn't harm anyone, but is clearly breaking the law. This has lots of assumptions, like the material is safe and there is no ill intent. These people see themselves as decent people, have a code of honor, but it doesn't align with the law.

LN: Judge. Trusts in the law to take care of people, and is very concerned with the law. Does not break the law, but can be upset about it or dissagree with it. Has no qualms about harsh punishments, but is not eager to inflict them. Let the punishment fit the crime.
TN: Average person. Follows the law when it suit them, but not afraid to break it if they belive it is the right thing to do. Willing to help others, but not eager to do so if it inconveniences them too much. Doesn't care so much if a thing is Good or Evil, or if it is Lawful or Chaotic, just does the thing that they benefit most from, tending to follow the path of least resistance.
CN: Anarchist or Radical. The laws as they are do not work well, or are unjust, to this person. Demands a new set of laws that are very different from what is established. Only obeys laws that they want to obey. Doesn't want to harm anybody, but might do so as an insturment of change.

LE: Rich Playboy. Vain, self centered, doesn't care about others. Has gained money or power in an entierly legal way, but doesn't share it or use it constructively. Out of principle, doesn't break the law. Belives that all who follow the laws should be able to be happy, and dismisses those who don't obey the laws.
NE: Cheater. Plays by the rules, except when the authority isn't looking. Likes to think of themself as a lawful person, and tends to follow most of the laws intricately when it suits them, but willing to disregard them if there is an advantage to doing so. Would be devastated if there were no laws, as they only prosper because other people play into the system legitimately.
CE: Pirate. His livelyhood is stealing from others, something both damaging to them and illegal in the eyes of the law. The pirate neither cares for the individual's welfare, nor for the rule of law. Distrusts most people, and is not concerned for their well being.

that's my take. I was going to do antagonists, but this got really long and philisophical. thats what happens when you don't give specific examples.

Fiery Diamond
2009-05-09, 09:45 AM
I'm mostly NG in my attitudes and tendencies. Yay. Reading through some of the alignment descriptions, I can see myself fitting snugly into the NG that many people describe.

Trizap
2009-05-09, 01:09 PM
from all this, I can see myself as Chaotic Neutral.

but I don't this system, I think I'll declare myself Chaotic Awesome

Devils_Advocate
2009-05-09, 05:07 PM
Dark Herald, your CG is described as merely non-Evil, with nothing about helping others. Similarly, your LE and NE are described as non-Good, with nothing about exploiting others.

Theogon
2009-06-03, 11:44 AM
as a heavy metal fan, i thought it would be interesting to define allignments with quotes from lyrics. here it is:

LG: human at sight, monster at heart
don't let it inside it could
tear you right apart

spirit crusher - death


NG: love can be seen as the answer,
but nobody bleeds for the dancer

heaven and hell - black sabbath

CG: i'm such a good good boy
i just need a new toy

girls girls girls - motley crüe


LN: run, live to fly, fly to live, do or die

aces high - iron maiden


N: what do you mean, i hurt your feelings?
i didn’t know you had any feelings.
what do you mean, i ain’t kind?
i’m just not your kind.

peace sells - megadeth


CN: you know i'm born to lose, and gambling's for fools,
but that's the way i like it baby,
i don't wanna live for ever

ace of spades - motörhead


LE: come crawling faster
obey your master
your life burns faster
obey your master

master of puppets - metallica


NE: i hate everyone equally
you can't tear that out of me
no segregation -separation
just me in my world of enemies

disciple - slayer


CE: rip their flesh burn their hearts
stab them in the eyes
rape their women as they cry
kill their servants burn their homes
till there’s no blood left to spill

hail and kill - manowar

Zaq
2009-06-03, 12:25 PM
TURN UNTHREAD!

Kris Strife
2009-06-03, 12:32 PM
http://www.rhjunior.com/GH/00058.html

There ya go.

Devils_Advocate
2009-06-03, 04:19 PM
Law:
Then sings my soul,
My Savior, God, to Thee:
How great Thou art!
How great Thou art!

Chaos:
I am unwritten
Can't read my mind
I'm undefined
I'm just beginning
The pen's in my hand
Ending unplanned

Good:
What the world needs now
Is love, sweet love
It's the only thing
That there's just too little of

What the world needs now
Is love, sweet love
No, not just for some
But for everyone

Evil:
I wanna push you around
Well, I will! Well, I will!
I wanna push you down
Well, I will! Well, I will!
I wanna take you for granted
I wanna take you for granted
Well, I will

Neutrality:
I am sitting in the morning
At the diner on the corner
I am waiting at the counter
For the man to pour the coffee
And he fills it only halfway
And before I even argue
He is looking out the window
At somebody coming in

monty
2009-06-03, 04:20 PM
TURN UNTHREAD!

I thought the cut-off for necromancy was six weeks; this has been less than a month.

Devils_Advocate
2009-06-03, 05:22 PM
That just determines whether raising a thread is disallowed, not whether people consider it necromancy. Being about a month old makes a thread pretty dead in a forum this active.

I'm unclear on why bumping even the most ancient of threads is considered a problem at all, personally. I should ask about that bit of netiquette in Board Issues, sometime, just out of curiosity.