V. VS. Xykon: My Guess.

[Tre of the Wood]

My personal guess, which is just a thought, is that V will lose control of one of the souls during the fight with Xykon, and this will allow him to defeat V. He will then attempt a soul bind, BUT WILL GET THE WRONG SOUL :smallamused:. V will then be able to be resurected, and the party will rejoin, humbled.

[Ridureyu]

1, 2, 3, 4, I declare a forum war!

...Between the people saying "Vaarsuvius will kill Xykon in 1 round, tops" and the people saying "Xykon will kill Vaarsuvius in 1 round, tops." i.e., put your V vs Xykon arguments here, so the main forum won't be cluttered up with fifteen different threads on the same topic.

I honestly don't know what will happen. It could go either way.

[Mando Knight]

Unless V has enough high-level spells left to spam Time Stop & Delayed Blast Fireball, I'm not sure V can pull it off. V's already spent several high-level spells, and Xykon's already shown himself capable of taking down an epic level wizard single-handedly.

[Haven]

V's carrying around an epic-level sorcerer. He gets a LOT of spell slots.

I don't think Xykon stands a chance, honestly. Even if he surprises V and one of the souls gets loose, V would still be about twice as powerful a caster as Xykon.

[Fostire]

That is assuming V actually gets to Xykon. The cloister spell is epic and I'm guessing that it's even more powerful than V's epic teleport. If that's the case maybe V will end up somewhere else completely, maybe even another plane.

But assuming V does get there safely and confronts Xykon, she has already spent to many spell slots. Sure, she probably still has lots left but so does Xykon (or not, since he usually spends his free time creating magical items which expend spell slots). I think they are probably at the same power level now, maybe with V a little stronger than Xykon. But let's not forget that Xykon still has red cloak on his side so I think he has a really good chance.

My bet: Xykon wins.

[theMycon]

My bet- (s)he takes down Xykon, then tries to get rid of his phylactery, but Redcloak either:

1: Offers him/her the position of Arcane Caster for his plans,

or 2: Rids V of the souls before (s)he can do much.

Have they ever really clarified the powers of Redcloak's Red Cloak?
I understand it's an artifact of some sort, it'd really suck if it had something like "epic dismissal" on it.

[Cúchulainn]

As strictly a battle scenerio, V would win. Unfortunately this is a plot driven story, I can think of half a dozen ways for V to lose off the top of my head just for showing up in front of Xykon. V is extremely powerful, unfortunately he's also borderline insane, has a huge ego, and in his mind he's working against the clock, this makes a recipe for failure. Xykon and Redcloak will be surprised that someone was able to break through the Cloister, which will be their only mental disadvantage. There's also Monster-san to add into the mix, if things get too bad he'll be called in and possibly be revealed.

Then there's my theory from a while back, Jephton coming into close proximity with the Snarl will cause V to be distracted. He'll probably tell V to tap into the destructive power of it to use against his enemies or something along those lines, causing it to awaken and you-know-what will hit the fan.

Cú's Conclusion: A massive plot device will win the day, something big is coming up. V and Xykon's duel will be the least of it.

[Cracklord]

Xykon will wipe the floor with V, then force V to serve him. To quote Start of Darkness:

"I ripped off my own living flesh so that I wouldn't have to admit weakness. You're strictly little league compared to that. That right there? That's the difference between bonafide true Evil with a capital "E" and your whiny "evil, but for a good cause," crap. One gets to be the butch, and one gets to be the bitch — Bitch."

Surprisingly appropriate. Such a good line, too.

[Xesirin]

If it's a question of 'who's stronger and would win in an even fight', Vaarsuvius would have this fight in the bag.

But Rule of Drama is going to trump Vaarsuvius easily. I don't know how, but it will happen.

*hint.* Big surprise: They're not there anymore. Yeah, in the 100 comics since we last checked up on them, (which is hitting somewhere around a week or so, I think, maybe longer) Xykon, Redcloak, MitD and possibly Tsisisisisitisaakkkko however-you-say-it will have been gone.

[SPoD]

This battle has been lost by Vaarsuvius in the opening move. He/she has just teleported in blind, without any scrying (or recon of any sort). That alone should be all the edge Xykon needs to obliterate the elf.

[Dagren]

My personal guess, which is just a thought, is that V will lose control of one of the souls during the fight with Xykon, and this will allow him to defeat V. He will then attempt a soul bind, BUT WILL GET THE WRONG SOUL :smallamused:. V will then be able to be resurected, and the party will rejoin, humbled.How would the party raise V if his body is in Azure City? Resurrection requires at least part of a body.

[Cracklord]

Exactly. Vaarsuvius has failed to consider three things. One; Redcloak can offer an endless stream of negative energy to heal Xykon, and has a legion of hobgoblin clerics to help out. Two: Xykon has a turn to ope fire before V can so much as blink, and the evil peoples are on Xykons side. Three: Meteor storm.

And then V shall be truly humbled.

[Zombie Nixon]

I doubt Xykon is even there.

[Klose_the_Sith]

Go Xykon!

There are an almost infinite number of ways that V could win, but no way that V will win. Never underestimate Xykon, regardless of the circumstances.

[Phase]

I think Redcloak will have to take V out. It's just V's disdain for divine magic that tells me his or her demise will come at the hands of a cleric.

Double whammy? If the MitD comes and beats V down too, by accident. Brute force and unfocused moves Vs. Years of training and honing to be the best. V's mental break is incoming.

[Cracklord]

Xykon will wipe the floor with V, then force V to serve him. To quote Start of Darkness:

"I ripped off my own living flesh so that I wouldn't have to admit weakness. You're strictly little league compared to that. That right there? That's the difference between bonafide true Evil with a capital "E" and your whiny "evil, but for a good cause," crap. One gets to be the butch, and one gets to be the bitch — Bitch."

Surprisingly appropriate. Such a good line, too.
Do not underestimate Xykon, or he will beat you, then humiliate you.

[Stormageddon]

My bet is the shtick of V's power being useless will continue. Maybe Xykon is already dead (more so). And something else more powerful is in his place.

[Dagren]

Didn't V cast spell turning during the fight with the dragon? If so, it's easily still within it's duration, and Xykon might get a nasty surprise.

[Needle]

Xykon will win, if the fight occurs =P

I mean, a Goblin armada, a Ghoul division, Tsukiko, Redcloak, Xykon. Everyone there, really. Tsukiko might be fighting with Thanh and those guys, or even, the joint forces of the three resistance groups might have done a pretty good job, breaking some havoc on Xykon lines.

Maybe we will reach Azure City on a running battle, if V can find Xykon before he's distracted by the many many many possible rivals... and Xykon will win anyways, as said before, he trapped Dorukan and the chick soul, so maybe V place will be exactly that one.

[Trizap]

Xykon, its too early in the story for the heroes to win.

[xyzzy]

My prediction:

Vaarsuvius meets Xykon and demands battle. The two begin to battle and discuss the circumstances leading up to the fight. Something along the lines of this dialogue:

X: Why aren't your buddies here? Redsword or whatever his name was? Or isn't he dead now?
V: They're weak. I'm who you're fighting right now.
X: Yeah, well, you're screwed.
V: Bah! I have two of the strongest magic users ever at my command.
X: It's inevitable that I'll break through them before Redcloak here even breaks a sweat keeping me alive. As I was saying, you're screwed.
V: A worthless cleric? You really think that'll help? My arcane power outnumbers yours completely, and that's all that matters.
Redcloak: So what you're getting at is that you're unwilling to accept help.
X: Exactly. Unless it's good old magic, right? You're pathetic.
V: No, magic is infinitely superior to---
X: No, you're still trying to pretend that you aren't a miserable excuse for a person.

Similar talk until V loses one or both of the splices. Xykon lays the smack on V's ass.

[Gamgee]

I have a bad feeling V is going to be soul trapped with the souls trapped inside of him. He will be let out at a further date under the complete command of the evil guys for a good few months if not years. It's a bit far fetched, but it is still possible.

[eilandesq]

My guess is that it will be ugly:

V arrives and discovers that Xykon, Redcloak, MiTD, and the tougher minions are gone, off to Girard's Gate. Since V. still has no idea where the Gate is, V throws a rather violent temper tantrum and vaporizes a large part of Azure City before teleporting back to the OoTS and waiting in increasing impatience as Durkon finishes resurrecting Roy.

[Lamech]

It could fo either way. If V catches Xykon unaware she will kill him. A contingency might get tripped, but seeing as how Xykon didn't escape from Soon I say no.
On the other hand their are spells in DnD that can explicetly see in to the future, divinations that don't exclude the future and in OotS their is the oracle. If Xykon knows V is coming then V will just teleport in to a AMF vat of lava. And die.

Of course, thats not dramatic in the least, I expect that V will not instantly find Xykon and their will be some cat and mouse and trying to get a leathal hit in. Should be interesting.

[Code Black]

Judging merely from narrative and storytelling trends, as well as the characters' personalities, and not from any basic knowledge of D&D whatsoever, I'd say V has no hope of victory. I was thinking about this situation, but the way this strip is paced and structured, it's fairly clear that it would be an anti-climax for V to even come close to winning. Even pulling a Soon and nearly beating Xykon wouldn't feel exactly right, now.

Xykon's proven more than capable of taking care of supposedly more powerful threats in the past, and even moreso he's very capable of turning cocksure enemies' sense of superiority to ashes. In fact, it's one of his more prominent character traits. Simply put, he's smart, and V is in no way at his most wise right now, nor would (s)he, in "aloof, arrogant archmage" mode, be mentally prepared for the inevitable trick.

I'm thinking, the real question here is how much V will lose: His life, the respect of his peers, his family, or merely his pride? Or something in between?

[Archetype]

Xykon, its too early in the story for the heroes to win.

This .

[erikun]

My prediction:

V will show up, get the drop on Xykon, then the two will start blasting at each other. After a few strips of such spellcaster-cheese, Xykon will point out what should've been obvious: as two epic level spellcasters, they can keep fighting as such of hours, if not days, and during that time, V's debt to the demons will only be increased.

Yep, I'm suspecting that Xykon will not only be able to detect the two backseat drivers in V's soul, but will also know what that means. Perhaps he'll even share what the demons are likely to do with such a deal - such as take over V's body at times of their choosing, rather than as one block of time immediately after the possession ends.

Beyond that, no clue. V will probably loose another "passanger" when he realizes that he can't beat Xykon, but it's hard to guess the results afterwards. Xykon isn't going to want the demonized V running around (competition is bad) and so will likely try to just kill him. Will V run off and isolate himself, or go back to OotS and admit his failure? Time will tell, I guess.

[Hungry Kobold]

I agree with almost all of what's been said here, so just read above for my reasons for why Xykon wins, but I also remember the Giant saying that Roy's resurrection will cost a member of the Order dearly. As cozy as everyone else is right now, however this ends, something bad is going to happen to V. I figured before this update that it might have just been V's debt, but going after Xykon is not going to help in any way. It's going to make it worse, somehow.

[JeptCloak]

After reading this comic the last month, I have become interested enough to actually post here.

I admit, I know very little about D&D, beyond what I've looked up in reference to this comic. That said, forgetting the "rules" and scenarios of D&D that exist in this comic, it seems to me completely implausible that V can lose. I've read all the comics, and Xykon has never demostrated anything approaching a power that should allow him to defeat V. I know that there is a dispute about whether the levels "stack", and about how convention dictates V must somehow lose. I don't disagree Xykon won't die (he's so hilarious it would be a shame too), but I don't see how.

Xykon would have lost to the Ghost of Soon. Is it really plausible Soon was powerful enough to beat him (and Redcloak), but V isn't? I don't see how that is possible. Xykon is an Epic level sure, but as I understand it he basically beat Dorukan by trickery mostly, and Soon (who must have been similar in strength to Dorukan, who was willing to fight him when their group broke up, and who lived alot longer to build levels up) took Xykon down, with little more than minimal whittling after his last heal.

V has shown power beyond anything Xykon has ever shown. Teleporting an entire fleet. Owning an Ancient Black dragon pretty much effortlessly. Sure, Haera is gone, but the guy should be way to strong for Xykon (assumedly somewhere between level 21 and maybe 25 tops?). I mean, Xykon thought he was maybe "7 or 8" levels above Roy, who he must have had a good idea about strength wise. V has 2 of the 3 most powerful evil mages ever under his command. They have to each be at least lvl 25-30 for that to be true. Xykon is only about 100 years old. He can't be that powerful can he?

I don't want to get into the Stat arguments (though I've seen various arguments explain that the levels must either stack, or be high enough to reach 60 based on some of the things V has done, like effortlessly disjunctioning the Dragon's field), but based on the presentation of Xykon thus far, I find it dramatically and plot straining that he could win. I'd be frankly disappointed if he does. I don't have a problem with Xykon running around being cool and "badass". He's a hilarious character. But plot inconsistencies like this annoy me when they're not for irony, and a major event like V vs Xykon can't be reduced to a 4th wall irony sketch. Which means either V wins, or the fight will suck.

[shadzar]

For an idiot towards 3rd edition like myself, could someone break down for me what spells V has normally, and what the remaining splices offer in total, and which spells each has used over the course of this @20 timeframe?

What levels worth of spells does V possess remaining? Assuming at least level 20 for the splices. Thanks much.

EDIT:

@JeptCloak: I am sure Xykon was about to lose to Soon, but Miko blew that and Soon was no longer bound after the sapphire was destroyed and his duty served and there was nothing left for him to protect.

The thing I think might turn the tide is the MitD. Somehow gets illuminated and V and sees it and loses the splices remaining, or the splices see it and get freaked out. I just have a nagging feeling the MitD will be revealed to someone other than Redcloak and Xykon soon, even if not to us the readers.

[isocum]

my theory:


V- (teleports in).
X- Wut?
V- verbose tirade explaining how & why she get her power.
R- so you actually rely on 2 souls, and have no real power(casts splice breaking spell).
V- shock at getting her ass handed to her by inferior divine "magic".
X- mocks with V(hell he may even go kill her family for that), teleports to oots's location, mock them all(they can't do anything out of fear of disrupting the resurrection), and teleports back to azure city, leaving humiliated V back.

[with an e]

Let's examine some proposed outcomes.

1. Vaarsuvius defeats Xykon permanently: Impossible. Xykon must first come within 1000 feet of Girard's gate to fulfill the Oracle's prediction (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html).

2. V loses to Xykon and has his soul trapped: Possible, but unlikely. The fiends have some kind of plan (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0637.html) for V, and it involves the gates (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0380.html). It is unlikely that their plan is dependent on the Order defeating Xykon, resurrecting V after freeing his soul from the gem, and then bringing V close to the gates.

3. V loses to Xykon and loses both soul splices: Possible, but unlikely. If V loses both souls, then he will not be able to teleport back. We have already spent around 200 strips with the Order separated. The repetition of either the Order being separated or a convenient solution to the problem of V's separation is poor writing that I don't think will be done.

4. V loses to Xykon and loses at most one soul splice then escapes: Possible.

5. V finds Xykon gone and couldn't find Xykon with scrying: Possible.

6. V defeats Xykon but neglects to destroy the phylactery: Possible, but it would gratify his ego and is thus not in keeping with the trend that his deal was a bad decision.

[Zevox]

As far what will actually happen, I see a few possibilities:
- Xykon is home, V and he fight. Xykon wins - plenty of ways he could do so, given V's still just one caster, and nothing we were told about the Soul Splice indicates it boosts her saves or hp, and she didn't even cast a single warding spell before porting in. V is either driven off in humiliation, killed (& possibly soul bound), or captured. In any event, unless she escapes, she probably loses control of the Splice, isolating her from the Order.
- Xykon is home, V and he fight. V wins, but does not destroy his phylactery.
- Xykon is not home, having departed for Girard's Gate since we last saw him, or just gotten bored and left for the day. Either V epic scries for him and they fight anyway, or she decides to return to the Order due to remembering the Oracle revealed the next Gate Xykon would try, and this merely becomes a new frustration for her.

For story purposes, there is no way V will completely destroy Xykon. The obvious fact that he's been set up as the major villain of the story aside, we know from the Oracle that Xykon will, at some point in the future, be within 1000 feet of Girard's Gate, which he can't do if V obliterates him now.

From a rules perspective, there's too little data. We'd need to know more about what Ganoron and Jephton are capable of to accurately compare them to Xykon. So far, all we know is that they're powerful epic casters - and that's a description Xykon fits as well. And with V still being one character, having both of them at her beck and call doesn't really help, given she's still stuck with just one spell + one quickened spell per round, same as Xykon. Plus we aren't fully sure how high level Redcloak is, and its very possible he could tip the scales, especially given the aforementioned matter of V's saves and hp. Plus the other big unknown factor of the Monster in the Darkness... yeah, there's just way too many unknowns here, on both sides, to take a decent guess.


For an idiot towards 3rd edition like myself, could someone break down for me what spells V has normally, and what the remaining splices offer in total, and which spells each has used over the course of this @20 timeframe?

What levels worth of spells does V possess remaining? Assuming at least level 20 for the splices. Thanks much.
Most of that is flat-out impossible to know. Certainly what spells, exactly, V has at her disposal, we don't know, since we don't know what she memorized today, what Ganoron memorized today, or what Jephton knows how to cast. Similarly, the epic-level spells and spell slots of Jephton and Ganoron are utter unknowns, since we have no clue how high above level 20 they are. Or their skill ranks, feats, etc.

We could figure out V's total spell slots, given we know she's a 14th-level Wizard with intelligence 22+, but we couldn't do that for Ganoron or Jephton, since we don't know what their intelligence and charisma scores are respectively, which determines bonus spell slots/spells per day. And we have no clue which source V was drawing on for most of the spells she has cast thus far, either - the epic spells are the only ones we can be sure of, and that the quickened ones couldn't come from Jephton, since Sorcerer metamagic always takes longer to cast than the base spell, making quickened spells impossible for him. So it would be an exercise in futility to try to determine anything from that information.

Zevox

[Kandarin]

My personal guess, which is just a thought, is that V will lose control of one of the souls during the fight with Xykon, and this will allow him to defeat V. He will then attempt a soul bind, BUT WILL GET THE WRONG SOUL :smallamused:. V will then be able to be resurected, and the party will rejoin, humbled.

My guess is that V will lose control of one of the souls and it'll go into the Snarl. :smallamused:

[Dagren]

2. V loses to Xykon and has his soul trapped: Possible, but unlikely. The fiends have some kind of plan (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0637.html) for V, and it involves the gates (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0380.html). It is unlikely that their plan is dependent on the Order defeating Xykon, resurrecting V after freeing his soul from the gem, and then bringing V close to the gates.One possibility I have considered is that this might happen, then the IFCC might sue Xykon to recover their "property". It's about time we saw the lawyers again, after all, and you can't tell me that the soul splice deal isn't just begging for them to show up.

[JeptCloak]

I know the fiends can lie, but it seems clear they can't lie about the nature of the contract V entered. And they promised him power greater than that of any arcane user in the history of the multiverse. Now, firstly that seems to guarantee level stacks (or Haera Bloodsoak was the most powerful Magic user in the multiverse by such a distance that it justifies the claims). Actually, even if Haera was the most powerful ever, it wouldn't be enough because V spliced with Haera without stacks would be little more powerful than Haera by herself (if V with the 3 souls is barely more powerful than Haera herself, then his power wouldn't "dwarf" hers if the levels don't stack, so aside from it seeming obvious they stack I certainly think the idea of Haera being say lvl 40, and the others being only 25ish, is just silly). Haera has been said to be the strongest "by a fair bit", but to justify V as the most powerful magic user in the history of the multiverse (remembering, there have surely been other ancient Lich's before, and Haera lived in the history of the multiverse), his remaining two splices must either be well, well above lvl 21, or his levels must stack. Doesn't the very fact V can break through the Cloister prove Ganeron alone must be at least as strong as Xykon? If his total power at the beginning "dwarfed" Haera's, then either levels stack or the other 2 must be pretty powerful. Because V (with Haera plus 2 people way weaker than her) does not "dwarf" living Haera's power without stacks. It would just be "as strong as Haera... but with 3 irrelevant people who can't affect her tacked on".

Plus, on looking up the spells from 3.5 it says Shapechange requires a "jade circlet" around your head to perform it. Plus V can still perform it despite Haera having gone. It seems likely Ganeron's orange headband has such a jade stone in it (or whatever), and he is the one who let V use shapechange. So even if levels don't stack, Ganeron is powerful enough to make a Shapechange spell that can make him stronger than an Ancient Black Dragon (and capable of crushing a Golem in one shot). I don't know the rules, but it seems like this would make him pretty damn high levelled.

[shadzar]

We could figure out V's total spell slots, given we know she's a 14th-level Wizard with intelligence 22+, but we couldn't do that for Ganoron or Jephton, since we don't know what their intelligence and charisma scores are respectively, which determines bonus spell slots/spells per day. And we have no clue which source V was drawing on for most of the spells she has cast thus far, either - the epic spells are the only ones we can be sure of, and that the quickened ones couldn't come from Jephton, since Sorcerer metamagic always takes longer to cast than the base spell, making quickened spells impossible for him. So it would be an exercise in futility to try to determine anything from that information.

Zevox

Numbers even rough would be fine with me. Considering how many spells have been used and assuming the levels they were just to derive for my own self when I can borrow a 3.5 PHB tomorrow, what spells are left as possible by the level. Base is fine even without the bonus from exceptional scores.

Epic teleport is level X and has been used twice now so that takes away two of those potential spells, so have many of those level are left. Just the numbers guestimates are fine with me.

Didn't V already used a quickened something as well as delayed fireball?

I will be willing to read the comics and see what the spliced V has cast and try to figure out who could have cast it with what little knowledge I have, just want to know how many spells left this day IF V makes it through the cloister as the spell seemed to be having trouble for either that reason or possibly losing another splice due to V's being upset again.

EDIT: nevermind I just thought of something, for all we know the splices don't even have to be 3.5 and can be older editions as well since they HAVE been dead for a while. They probably are not even 3.0 as the time passed in the comic even showed the conversion to 3.5 in oh...strip #1. They could even be out of BECMI.

[Pronounceable]

Doesn't the very fact V can break through the Cloister prove Ganeron alone must be at least as strong as Xykon?
Dorukan actually. That's his spell.


One possibility I have considered is that this might happen, then the IFCC might sue Xykon to recover their "property". It's about time we saw the lawyers again, after all, and you can't tell me that the soul splice deal isn't just begging for them to show up.
That'd be awesome in more ways than can be counted. Very unlikely though.


And V will be defeated by Redcloak. It's just not possible for anything else to happen after his comment. Drama demands it. Xykon might get destroyed a bit in the process, but it'd be nothing permenant. Redcloak has the Crimson Mantle, which is a chekov's assault rifle if I've ever seen one. It's about time it fires.

[quick_comment]

Going by power, there is no way V can lose.

Xykon and V are both blasters. V has way more and way bigger blasts.

I think Xykon might actually lose, and then Redcloak assumes the mantle of BBEG.

[JeptCloak]

Isn't Redcloak like lvl 16 or something? How can he possibly do anything to V, when Soon owned him? It's absurd, and I would find any story written as such both absurd and beneath the writer. It just defeats the whole way the characters have been built to this point. How on earth can either Redcloak or Xykon hurt him? I'd buy MITD, at least that's possible, but everything else is nonsense.

Can someone who understand D&D rules tell me how many hit dice Vs shapechanged dragon would need to do some of the things is can evidently do? Because that would give us an idea of Ganeron's level (assuming no stacks).

[quick_comment]

Isn't Redcloak like lvl 16 or something? How can he possibly do anything to V, when Soon owned him? It's absurd, and I would find any story written as such both absurd and beneath the writer. It just defeats the whole way the characters have been built to this point. How on earth can either Redcloak or Xykon hurt him? I'd buy MITD, at least that's possible, but everything else is nonsense.


Redcloak is the bearer of the crimson mantle and chief priest of the dark one. He is more powerful that his level indicates.

MITD does not have the leadership or intelligence to be BBEG

[JeptCloak]

Redcloak is the bearer of the crimson mantle and chief priest of the dark one. He is more powerful that his level indicates.

MITD does not have the leadership or intelligence to be BBEG

I'm sorry, I don't play D&D, I don't really understand how or why this matters. Redcloaks power has been portrayed throughout the comic as being at a certain level. It can't do things like, say, get rid of Soon. Now I'm going to go on a limb and say 2 of the "most powerful magic users ever" are stronger than Soon, and that if Redcloak can't effect them (and can fight about evenly with the high priest of Azure) then he can't do squat to V. Sure, the story can be written however the writer likes, but it would be stupid. Redcloak has never shown that level of power.

[DSCrankshaw]

Well, I'd like to point out two things:

1. Xykon is higher level than V
2. Xykon is a lich

This means that Xykon has more than three times the hit points as V, better saves, and probably better DC for his spells (it's possible V is using his spliced souls for DC, but even then they don't get the +2 bonus to Charisma--so they'd need to be at least 5 levels higher than Xykon to have even DCs). Liches also get immunity from cold, lightning, polymorph, and mind affecting attacks. They also get undead traits, which includes immunity to poison, sleep, paralysis, stunning, disease, death effects, critical hits, ability drain, energy drain, and any effect that requires a fortitude save. Xykon also has Ghostform, which gives him a 50% to ignore all magic and magic weapon attacks. All this means that he's immune to most of the instakill spells V's packing, resistant or immune to most of his straight damage, and has a lot of hit points. V, on the other hand, is not immune to Xykon's instakill spells. Nor is he any more resistant to them than the normal 14-15th level wizard. He'll have to use magic to improve his survivability.

[quick_comment]

I'm sorry, I don't play D&D, I don't really understand how or why this matters. Redcloaks power has been portrayed throughout the comic as being at a certain level. It can't do things like, say, get rid of Soon. Now I'm going to go on a limb and say 2 of the "most powerful magic users ever" are stronger than Soon, and that if Redcloak can't effect them (and can fight about evenly with the high priest of Azure) then he can't do squat to V. Sure, the story can be written however the writer likes, but it would be stupid. Redcloak has never shown that level of power.

If Redcloak can sever the soul splice (which is pretty reasonable) then V is no longer the most powerful spellcaster, he is just a suboptimized level 15 or 16 evoker.

Xykon was receptive to Redcloak's threat of rebuking him, so the crimson mantle must bolster Redcloaks's turn undead ability. If he can rebuke Xykon, he can kill him.

[JeptCloak]

If Redcloak can sever the soul splice (which is pretty reasonable) then V is no longer the most powerful spellcaster, he is just a suboptimized level 15 or 16 evoker.

Xykon was receptive to Redcloak's threat of rebuking him, so the crimson mantle must bolster Redcloaks's turn undead ability. If he can rebuke Xykon, he can kill him.

I don't understand how that's reasonable. The guy can't dismiss Soon, but he can sever a soul splice put in place by higher beings? To call that reasonable is absurd. It's almost a perfect analogy in fact. He can't do anything to Soon's spirit, but he can somehow affect not only Epic Wizards spirits, but the chains which bind them? And I don't buy Xykon has any fear of Redcloak either.

[Salt_Crow]

Xykon was receptive to Redcloak's threat of rebuking him, so the crimson mantle must bolster Redcloaks's turn undead ability. If he can rebuke Xykon, he can kill him.

That was Eye of Fear and Flame not Xykon ;)

Anyways, I'd say Xykon would beat V quite easily. He's beaten an epic caster once (SoD) why not twice?

[Haven]

For story purposes, there is no way V will completely destroy Xykon. The obvious fact that he's been set up as the major villain of the story aside, we know from the Oracle that Xykon will, at some point in the future, be within 1000 feet of Girard's Gate, which he can't do if V obliterates him now.

From a rules perspective, there's too little data. We'd need to know more about what Ganoron and Jephton are capable of to accurately compare them to Xykon. So far, all we know is that they're powerful epic casters - and that's a description Xykon fits as well. And with V still being one character, having both of them at her beck and call doesn't really help, given she's still stuck with just one spell + one quickened spell per round, same as Xykon. Plus we aren't fully sure how high level Redcloak is, and its very possible he could tip the scales, especially given the aforementioned matter of V's saves and hp. Plus the other big unknown factor of the Monster in the Darkness... yeah, there's just way too many unknowns here, on both sides, to take a decent guess.

I'd like to disagree with your premises.

Xykon has been set up "obviously" as the BBEG--but his backstory is basically (SoD spoilers, but the gist of it is "deliberately flat stereotypical character") "I was kind of looked down on by wizards a few times" and his motivation is "I want to do some large-scale evil, your plan sounds like it'll do"

This is in contrast to Redcloak's detailed and personal motivations for everything, meaning he is a MUCH better candidate for final villain than Xykon, whose entire involvement in this story is as a snarky blunt instrument. Meaning he could be disposed of and replaced rather easily, and it would be a better twist since it's less expected (because he is so "obviously" the BBEG).

Also: Redcloak would definitely tip the scales, but his character development has been gradually growing a spine, basically. So he would tip the scales against Xykon.

(Of course, if he does that, the MitD is enchanted to eat him, but I'm going to bet that he'd just going to get confused about whether or not it's time for him to come out of the darkness yet)

As for V...all the available evidence suggests that the caster levels stack, so he's about level 60 right now, which is two or three times as many levels as Xykon has, and since in D&D casters' power growth is exponential rather than linear, he vastly overpowers the lich. There's also the fact that most of the buffs V cast here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0638.html) are still in effect and should be for a while. While he hasn't exactly been efficient in his magic use so far, he has the resources of an epic sorcerer at his fingertips, meaning LOADS of spell slots. Even if he didn't, he could still shapechange into a Titan or something.

So my guess is V smacks Xykon down HARD, Xykon mocks him about the phylactery, Redcloak smirks and destroys it, V loses the splices, Redcloak tempts him by knowing more about the gates (and thus a pathway to ultimate arcane power) than anyone else, Redcloak becomes the new Big Bad and V becomes his dragon.

[JeptCloak]

Well, I'd like to point out two things:

1. Xykon is higher level than V
2. Xykon is a lich

This means that Xykon has more than three times the hit points as V, better saves, and probably better DC for his spells (it's possible V is using his spliced souls for DC, but even then they don't get the +2 bonus to Charisma--so they'd need to be at least 5 levels higher than Xykon to have even DCs). Liches also get immunity from cold, lightning, polymorph, and mind affecting attacks. They also get undead traits, which includes immunity to poison, sleep, paralysis, stunning, disease, death effects, critical hits, ability drain, energy drain, and any effect that requires a fortitude save (which includes disintegration). Xykon also has, and has used, Ghostform before, which has a 50% chance to ignore magic damage. So Xykon's means that they're immune to most of the instakill spells V's packing, and largely immune to straight out damage. V, on the other hand, is not immune to Xykon's instakill spells. Nor is he any more resistant to them than the normal 14-15th level wizard. He does have magic to improve his survivability, but I doubt it will be enough to overcome all of Xykon's natural advantages.

Well, first you're assuming levels don't stack. Second, it would only matter that Xykon was a lich if we had reason to believe they were remotely comprable in levels. Nothing to date suggests this.

[derfenrirwolv]

I think the chances of Haerta NOT finding xykon just plumeted.

The soul splice vs soul splice banter should be hillarious

[DSCrankshaw]

Well, first you're assuming levels don't stack. Second, it would only matter that Xykon was a lich if we had reason to believe they were remotely comprable in levels. Nothing to date suggests this.
Why would the levels stack? What we've seen so far suggests that when V casts one of the soul splice's spells, it's in effect the soul casting the spell himself (which is why I granted that it may be at the DC the soul would normally cast).

And since we don't know what level Xykon is, we don't know that the spliced souls are much (if any) higher level than he is. We do know that Xykon is a lich. We do know that he's an epic level caster. We do know that V himself is only 14th-15th level. We know that the souls are each epic level.

Given how little we know, I'd think that the fact that Xykon is a lich is one of the more significant facts, as it improves his spellcasting, hit points, and gives him a host of immunities.

[JeptCloak]

I think we've seen a pretty reasonable display of Xykon's ability. Someone who needed a trick to beat Dorukan, and who was going to lose to Soon. Neither character should be comprable to "greatest ever dark wizards", nor should the deal, which explicitly said he'd get power that dwarfed any arcane user in the history of the multiverse. Somehow I don't think that means "about the same as Xykon"...

[Gamgee]

Don't forget how clever Xykon is. He is more than capable of tricking people and killing them. Considering Roy has from time to time proven to have better judgment than V and was warning him not to go it's a safe bet V is ****ed. He was getting "turbulence" just getting to the place. Not to mention the spell was only Dourkans (sp?) spell who Xykon killed many moons ago, and was clearly stronger than.

Not to mention Xykon plain up has more experience at this than V, and specifically with dealing with snobby stuck up *******s. He has proven time and time again that he is more than a match for any foe he comes up against, and even if he wins by trickery he still wins. See that's just it though. Many seem to think this fight is going to be fair. I highly doubt it will go anywhere near the basic definition of "fair".

I would go so far as to say Xykon is going to laugh his ass off at such a pathetic attempt. Hell, he might not even have to cast a spell to win. Also I can't wait for V to get hir ass kicked, remember kids! Having ultimate arcane power is no reason to switch into the Chaotic Stupid Alignment.

[shadzar]

I think we've seen a pretty reasonable display of Xykon's ability. Someone who needed a trick to beat Dorukan, and who was going to lose to Soon. Neither character should be comparable to "greatest ever dark wizards", nor should the deal, which explicitly said he'd get power that dwarfed any arcane user in the history of the multiverse. Somehow I don't think that means "about the same as Xykon"...

But was that power requiring the necromancer? Could the necromancer have had a spell powerful enough to just dismiss a lich?

I don't think V is going to lose easy, but winning will sure add time to the clock, and wouldn't be surprised, but pleased to see a timer counting up on each panel of the fight between Xykon and V should V actually arrive where Xykon is with any souls remaining spliced.

[JeptCloak]

But was that power requiring the necromancer? Could the necromancer have had a spell powerful enough to just dismiss a lich?

I don't think V is going to lose easy, but winning will sure add time to the clock, and wouldn't be surprised, but pleased to see a timer counting up on each panel of the fight between Xykon and V should V actually arrive where Xykon is with any souls remaining spliced.

The logic goes thusly:
1) Your power will "dwarf" any arcane user (not wizard, not necromancer or sorceror, just arcane user) in the history of the multiverse.
2) Haerta is such an arcane user from the history of the multiverse. Now if the theory is "Haerta is lvl 50, but Jephton and Ganoron are only lvl 25" then the contract isn't being fulfilled, because Vs power doesn't "dwarf" Haerta's when she was alive, it's just "someone with Haerta's power... and 3 nobodies tacked on who can't effect Haerta at all". Obviously Haerta is the strongest, but Ganoron and Jephton must be at least vaguely comprable, or able to hurt her, for the "non stack" theory to work. Or, they stack. Either way is fine.
3) If the levels don't stack, then let's think about Ganoron's shapechange spell, and how many levels he's need to get the # of hit dice that dragon must have had. I don't know much about D&D, but I'm guessing more than 25.

Also, the things V has been able to do without Haerta's power belie the notion that the other 2 aren't massive epics. Ganoron was a multi-dimensional conqueror, who has done ridiculous epic teleports beyond anything we've seen Xykon ever do, not to mention his ridiculous shapechange powers. Xykon is not the first Lich, there have been many powerful ones before. Yet none of them was stronger than these 3 summoned wizards. It seems absurd that Xykon is apparently one of greatest magic users in the history of the multiverse, but can't beat Soon, and can only beat Dorukan with luck and a plot device joke. where is this "Xykon owned Dorukan" stuff coming from... my understanding was Dorukan should have won in a fair fight, and was comprable in power. Nor is it "Dorukan's spell" V just busted through, it's one Dorukan designed, that is fuelled by Xykon's power. If V can cut through Xykon's epic Cloister like that, despite having "the most powerful abjuration ever" then Xykon should be toast.

[Da'Shain]

I'm torn between whether I want a knock-down, no-holds-barred epic spellcaster battle in which Xykon and Redcloak (and possibly Tsukiko) fight a desperate battle against a clearly superior foe and come up with some trick that wins them the fight ...

Or I want Xykon to take one look at V and Paralyzing Touch her. (I know, V made a fortitude save against the ABD earlier, but Xykon's spellcasting level is higher, although I don't know if that matters for PT or not.)

Either way, V's definitely going down somehow. As others have said, if Xykon doesn't beat him, Redcloak definitely will, after that little crack about divine magic.


EDIT:
Xykon is not the first Lich, there have been many powerful ones before. Yet none of them was stronger than these 3 summoned wizards. It seems absurd that Xykon is apparently one of greatest magic users in the history of the multiverse, but can't beat Soon, and can only bear Dorukan with luck and a plot device joke.I'd hardly call his defeat of Dorukan "luck" so much as picking the right spell for the occasion and spamming the heck out of it. As for Soon, not only was he incorporeal, but Xykon had already busted out most of his high level spell slots getting to the throne room and fighting off Soon's ghost-paladins (suboptimally because he hadn't bothered to check the rules for fighting incorporeal enemies). It was a battle in which Soon had the advantage of surprise, preparation and numbers, and Soon still barely won, largely because Xykon was down to Magic Missile against him.

[Roc Ness]

Wouldn't it be such a tweest if V accidently teleported right into the rift due to the novelty of hir not knowing the size of the rift.

:smallbiggrin:

[shadzar]

The logic goes thusly:

Let us try this on for size. She was the most powerful of the 3 even said as much by someone. Also the fiends said V would keep the splices for as long as V could maintain control over them. That was a condition of the arrangement. V failing to maintain the splcies does not invalidate the contract because V was able to have the power. Even if V didn't get to use the power, then the contract was fulfilled. There was no guarantee on how long the splices would last, thus in part a reason for V's haste as well the payment for maintaining said splices.

So: V could still be more powerful than Xykon or maybe even Haerta, or the fact that losing Haerta could have greatly reduced that power.

How much power was lost is yet to be seen, but I don't recall if the two remaining splcies were of equal power to Haerta, or were maybe dwarfed by her power.

V isn't weak by any means, but is weaker from losing a part of the splice so is not really still more powerful than any arcane user in the history of the multiverse.

Also of note, history often refers to the past and not the present, so there is no telling if the twist wording could mean that V was never more powerful than Xykon to begin with as he is not fully a part of history, but is still a part of the present.....

They may not have been able to lie able the particulars about the contract when they gave V the souls, but they were quite easily able to leave things out, like exactly how the time-share of V's soul will be divided out and when. So it is not that far fetched for some clever wording to be used to alter the perceived meaning of history, if the connotation being used was not clearly defined or asked about at the time the contract was made.

Either way I think it possible V to win with just a few minor things from Complete Arcane, or put up a good fight with Absorption and Sphere of Ultimate Destruction. The last one sounds like something the sorcerer would be happy to employ.

Also another thing that could crush my theory about V being weaker, still doesn't deny V being weaker, but how, is that there is nothing that I recall saying the soul splices are bound by the same rules of magic as a living person, and only have a limited number of spell slots per day. That was why I was wanting to know how many spells each could have.

It will be a good fight between V and Xykon, I just think V is not as strong as when Haerta was still spliced, and may alter that power level that was originally gained from the splices.

[lord_khaine]

This means that Xykon has more than three times the hit points as V, better saves, and probably better DC for his spells (it's possible V is using his spliced souls for DC, but even then they don't get the +2 bonus to Charisma--so they'd need to be at least 5 levels higher than Xykon to have even DCs). Liches also get immunity from cold, lightning, polymorph, and mind affecting attacks. They also get undead traits, which includes immunity to poison, sleep, paralysis, stunning, disease, death effects, critical hits, ability drain, energy drain, and any effect that requires a fortitude save. Xykon also has Ghostform, which gives him a 50% to ignore all magic and magic weapon attacks. All this means that he's immune to most of the instakill spells V's packing, resistant or immune to most of his straight damage, and has a lot of hit points. V, on the other hand, is not immune to Xykon's instakill spells. Nor is he any more resistant to them than the normal 14-15th level wizard. He'll have to use magic to improve his survivability.


actualy, evidence from the Dragon fight suggest that the splice has boostet both V's HP and saves.

and rightfully V should win, he has the power to do so, and this is actualy a smart move, but i know that fate or bad luck will get in his way.

[Trixie]

EDIT: nevermind I just thought of something, for all we know the splices don't even have to be 3.5 and can be older editions as well since they HAVE been dead for a while. They probably are not even 3.0 as the time passed in the comic even showed the conversion to 3.5 in oh...strip #1. They could even be out of BECMI.

What is BECMI?

And they pretty much have to be from 3.5, there was no Epic Magic even remotely resembling what they are doing right now in previous editions.

[Ancalagon]

Recloak betraying Xykon: You people miss entirely why Redcloak is loyal to Xykon. It's not about "needing" a caster and all that, it's because Xykon gives Redcloak a "certain excuse" a needs.
He will eventually betray his master but from the "character development" we had up to this point, I'm not seeing it happening right now.

[Drascin]

Looking at it from a power standpoint, Xykon is toast. It's that simple. Everything in the rules of the game point to V's gestalt being so very superior to Xykon he might as well be a nameless goblin for all that would matter.

But, sadly, drama demands that V doesn't get her victory. So she will lose, somehow. My bets are on "trickery". Xykon will understand what is in front of him, and why V is somehow so incredibly more powerful him. And he will take advantage of this, distressing V enough to lose her subcontractors, thereby rendering her an easy prey. This is pretty much the only way I can think for Xykon to win that doesn't involve a huge Deus ex Machina.

[JeptCloak]

Let us try this on for size. She was the most powerful of the 3 even said as much by someone. Also the fiends said V would keep the splices for as long as V could maintain control over them. That was a condition of the arrangement. V failing to maintain the splcies does not invalidate the contract because V was able to have the power. Even if V didn't get to use the power, then the contract was fulfilled. There was no guarantee on how long the splices would last, thus in part a reason for V's haste as well the payment for maintaining said splices.

Well, I'm with you so far.


So: V could still be more powerful than Xykon or maybe even Haerta, or the fact that losing Haerta could have greatly reduced that power.
If levels don't stack at all, then how could Vs total power, with all 3 splices, have "dwarfed" Haerta's back when she was alive? It would be a slightly more flexible Haerta, with more spell slots, but the total power he wields would not dwarf Haerta's, it would be "Haerta, but with a bit more versatility, etc". Which basically necessitates that the other 2 splices must be at least at a level where they can be a decent or plausible threat to her. Otherwise even without thinking about all the great wizards that must surely have existed, the promise of the contract fails. Personally, I think it stacks, but it's got to be one of the other.


How much power was lost is yet to be seen, but I don't recall if the two remaining splcies were of equal power to Haerta, or were maybe dwarfed by her power.

See above.


Also of note, history often refers to the past and not the present, so there is no telling if the twist wording could mean that V was never more powerful than Xykon to begin with as he is not fully a part of history, but is still a part of the present.....

Yeh, but Dorukan is dead now, and he was basically as good as Xykon (he lost to Xykon because of a trick, didn't he?). So the idea of Xykon being some level 50 Epic, despite no evidence thus far (and much evidence to the contrary) is just silly.

[ThisIsNotDan]

Nobody seems to have noticed that V is likely to lose Ganonron after the teleport. He's getting some "turbulence" at the end of 650; that seems like as good an opportunity as any for Ganonron to jump ship as soon as they arrive in Azure City. We've already seen his cool epic spell, anyway.

That would leave V and Jephthon to face Xykon. Basically, 2 epic-level sorcerers squaring off against each other. I think that right there is enough to even the odds, let alone the fact that V will be DEEP in enemy territory. I'm pretty sure V will lose Ganonron during the teleport, though. That's my prediction.

[JeptCloak]

Nobody seems to have noticed that V is likely to lose Ganonron after the teleport. He's getting some "turbulence" at the end of 650; that seems like as good an opportunity as any for Ganonron to jump ship as soon as they arrive in Azure City. We've already seen his cool epic spell, anyway.

That would leave V and Jephthon to face Xykon. Basically, 2 epic-level sorcerers squaring off against each other. I think that right there is enough to even the odds, let alone the fact that V will be DEEP in enemy territory. I'm pretty sure V will lose Ganonron during the teleport, though. That's my prediction.

Well, losing Ganoron certainly would change things a bit... except we still have been told these guys are the 3 best dark wizards in the history of existence... Xykon on the other hand can't even beat Soon, and was basically Dorukan's equal... V should still win, albeit with more difficulty... plus Ganoron doesn't look like he's keen to go anywhere just yet...

[Weimann]

This is, of course, a highly hypothetical question, since if you look at it from a story perspective, having an embodied Deus Ex Machina (Arcana Ex Machina?) destroying the main villain, when it would also rob Roy of his "prove my father wrong" opportunity, just doesn't work. Therefore, I have no idea how V will fail, but I'm positive (s)he will.

On a game mechanic level, I'm not qualified to speculate.

[ThisIsNotDan]

Regarding Jephthon being more powerful than Xykon, I think it's plausible that Jephthon may have been the weakest of the 3 souls. I don't know much about the DnD rules, so if power truly increases exponentially with level, as someone else pointed out, then maybe a level or two more than Xykon is all Jepthon needs to mop the floor with him. That can be taken care of by the fact that Xykon has healer (not to mention an army) and V doesn't, methinks.

[Oracle_Hunter]

The Power of Plot seems to be on Xykon's side.

First, we have V's Arc - an almost picture-perfect Greek Drama (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BreakTheHaughty) which is entering its final act. V is going to fail, and the realization of that failure will shatter the Soul Splices. The only question is whether V is going to be alive & reunited with OotS or dead & trapped in Xykon's Gem with Dorukan and Lirian; the Giant has thrown me for a loop enough times by now, I'm not going to guess which it'll be.

Secondly, is the Oracle's prediction. Tip of the Hat to "With An E" for the thorough analysis there, though others did mention it as well. Even if Xykon were defeated, he will not be permanently destroyed - unless, of course, V tracks Xykon down to Girard's Gate and destroys him there.

Thirdly and finally, there is V's weakness - the Splice. An emotional shock was sufficient to allow one to escape; I can only imagine that the strains of a serious battle (which, with Xykon, it would be) would allow one or both of the Splices to escape if it went on long enough. Xykon, on the other hand, has his power "honestly" - there is no easily exploitable weakness for V to target.

Pacing wise, I feel like V's final conflict will be a short one. Despite the potential epicness of this battle, it is not the right time in the story for another "Siege of Azure City" style conflict; possibly not even another Black Dragon Battle. Interestingly, the longer the battle goes on, the worst it is likely to become for V - finding Xykon gone and losing a Splice from the shock would be the quickest, but if Mr. Burlew is going to kill off "for real" a PC he is going to milk it for all it's worth. At its longest, V would be completely crippled by Xykon, eirs spirit crushed, and there would be nothing left but locking V away in the Gem.

[shadzar]

BECMI= Basic, Expert, Companion, M (it eludes me), Immortals

Check Wikipedia for "Editions of D&D", and you will find it listed there.

If levels don't stack at all

It must be my complete dislike of Magic the Gathering but hearing about spells stacking just turns my brain off. I am guesing this to imply that V has the combined spells per levels of all 3 remaining souls using V's body (including V).

I think this isn't quite right. I don't think any "stacking" is required if the souls are the ones manifesting the arcane powers, as such with FAMILICIDE, as V would not have normally had the power to cast such a spell, and you can clearly see Haerta right there casting it. So all the souls share V's body, and V can command them via their shackled forms. Again why V will only have this power while the splice is maintained, because losing control of a soul means losing control of a soul, and can no longer command them to cast their effective arcane power for V.

Doesn't matter what level Xykon is now. Do we know Dorukan's level?

Do we know the 3 souls levels and V's to weigh how much power they had combined to know what would be greater than "any arcane user in history"?

We can guess only to what they could be. Is it that far fetched that losing the necromancer means V could have lost over one fourth of the power held at such time V had all three souls?

Then is it also that far fetched to think that losing ANY of the souls would make V no longer be more powerful than "any arcane user in history"?

2 is greater than 1 so long as you don't lose 1 from the 2, then they are equal. That is all it takes for V to no longer be more powerful than "any arcane user in history", is losing just the smallest bit of power to tip the scales. Haerta was more than just a small amount of power I would say, so it seems fitting that there is a chance V is no longer more powerful than Xykon.

That is all I am saying.

I also think the teleporting soul is not longer to remain spliced, which adds another damper to V's plans.

[Cracklord]

What level was Soon? Basically Durokan's equal? Where does it say that? Durokan was way higher level then that Druid. For all we know, Soon was the one who killed Haerta and Ganoron. And Xykon is better at this. Raw power doesn't have a thing to do with it.
But I am hoping Redcoak will just pop off a dismissal and sever the chains.

[JeptCloak]

Pretty much nothing I said was addressed by that reply, so I'll just ask some other questions I feel are pertinent.

1) Soon killed off someone with a multidimensional empire? Seems pretty unlikely he had time to do this, let alone that he could have beaten someone like this.
2) Soon beat someone who can off 25% of all black dragons in one spell. Good luck with that theory. Xykon didn't know who Soon even was, so implying he knows anything about Soon is silly.
3) Dorukan was epic by the end of his career. It seems like he felt he could take Soon since when the Order of the Scribble breaks up, they're about to throw down. Either way, you wouldn't think there is a big difference. The point is Dorukan would be "dwarfed" by Super V. Now you can use either explanation, stacking or "the other 2 are also awesome", but whichever way you slice it Dorukan is nowhere near V now, and he basically lost ot Xykon because of a trick.

What about Xykon to date has put him in the same ballpark as:
a) someone who can kill off 25% of all black dragons in one spell, or
b) someone who has a multidimensional empire, can teleport whole armies, etc
Nothing.

[Quorothorn]

I think we've seen a pretty reasonable display of Xykon's ability. Someone who needed a trick to beat Dorukan, and who was going to lose to Soon. Neither character should be comprable to "greatest ever dark wizards", nor should the deal, which explicitly said he'd get power that dwarfed any arcane user in the history of the multiverse. Somehow I don't think that means "about the same as Xykon"...

Although you have several valid points in your overall contribution to this thread, there is one important thing I feel I need to address.

You seem to be under the impression that Xykon didn't 'fight fair' so to speak, against Dorukan, or that he got lucky to beat him. Leaving aside the ridiculousness of assuming Xykon would ever fight fair (including against super-V, who quite frankly is highly vulnerable to Xykon's brand of non-magical mental warfare) if he felt like utilizing tricks, there is one important point.

You. Are. Wrong. Xykon used absolutely no "tricks" in his actual fight with Dorukan. He destroyed him, straight-up, hammering him into the dust with Energy Drains after slaughtering his way through a tide of summoned angels to get to him. In short, he WON. He defeated the creator of a spell that is giving super-V's contractors some serious "turbulence", and mocked him as he did so. Also, he killed an epic druid with laughable ease (including, notably, when said druid Shapechanged into a dragon to fight). Soon's spirit (and his small army of ghost-martyrs, some seriously tough home-brew creatures BTW) was practically designed to fight someone like Xykon, who was worn down a bit anyway.

Important OotS rule, IMO: Never underestimate Xykon (everyone who has done so has ended up either dead or at least in a very bad way). V does, in point of fact, out-power him at this point, but that doesn't matter much, because when Xykon truly focuses, not even something like Ultimate Arcane Power is going to be guaranteed to stop him (especially not when it has a huge vulnerability to it that Xykon is fully capable of taking advantage of if he realizes what's going on--which may or may not happen, of course, but betting against it is simply not safe).

[with an e]

Given how little we know, I'd think that the fact that Xykon is a lich is one of the more significant facts, as it improves his spellcasting, hit points, and gives him a host of immunities.
Being a lich improves Xykon's hit dice size at the cost of his con score. He can shapechange or polymorph into another form, but that would rob him of undead traits. Since shapechange and polymorph do not allow one to assume a templated creature's form, the new creature cannot be a lich and therefore loses all lich features and traits. Xykon would be no better off than V if he shapechanges.

Let's look at how being a lich affects Xykon. He has d12 hit dice, but he has no con score. This means 12+(level-1)*6.5 hp expected, or 142 hp at level 21. Compare this with a venerable human sorcerer of level 21 with 14 con to start. He would be expected to have at least 8+4 (inherent)-6 (age)+6 (amulet of health +6)=18 con, or 8+20*6.5=138 hp. A L21 lich sorcerer who was human before the change would have a mere 6 base fortitude save with nothing from a con modifier. The same sorcerer can shapechange into a balor (30 con) for 6+10 fortitude save, and they would have the same modifiers otherwise. Trading 10 fort save for 1 will save and 4 hp is a horrible idea when your opponent likes disintegrate and can fire off a disintegrate+quickened disintegrate in one round (80d6 damage, average 280).

[JeptCloak]

I think it was pretty implicit in what I said that I haven't read SOD, but I had been told that Dorukan should have won, and that Dorukan only lost because of a gag about it being a black and white comic. I said they were comprable in power. If that is incorrect, my apologies. I'm going off what I've been told.

How plausible is it that Dorukan was really more powerful than any of the 3 most powerful evil wizards ever? It seems like a ridiculous stretch given Soon out and out destroyed Xykon. Xykon had a little whittling, but he'd been healed with negative energy not long before, and most of the ghosts were vanished quickly afterwards. Soon was barely hurt, and he won. Which makes it pretty clear in a fair fight Soon's spirit would win. Now either Soon is apparently comprable to 3 of the greatest evil wizards of all time (which I don't believe at all), or V is much more powerful than Xykon.

Also, I don't know much about how magic works, but as far as I understand it when Xykon uses Cloister he is using his own power, not Dorukan's (even if it was dorukan's spell). Yet V goes right through Dorukan's power, meaning at least Ganeron is able to overcome Xykon's effects. If they stack, Xykon is even more boned.

[Quorothorn]

I think it was pretty implicit in what I said that I haven't read SOD, but I had been told that Dorukan should have won, and that Dorukan only lost because of a gag about it being a black and white comic. I said they were comprable in power. If that is incorrect, my apologies. I'm going off what I've been told.

Yeah, you were pretty much told very wrongly, I'm afraid. There was a black-and-white joke, but it wasn't a deciding factor.


How plausible is it that Dorukan was really more powerful than any of the 3 most powerful evil wizards ever? It seems like a ridiculous stretch given Soon out and out destroyed Xykon. Xykon had a little whittling, but he'd been healed with negative energy not long before, and most of the ghosts were vanished quickly afterwards. Soon was barely hurt, and he won. Which makes it pretty clear in a fair fight Soon's spirit would win. Now either Soon is apparently comprable to 3 of the greatest evil wizards of all time (which I don't believe at all), or V is much more powerful than Xykon.

Actually, Soon might be more comparable to the contractors than you think. He was an epic paladin on a major background quest with some way to keep himself around after death, probably even more powerful than he was in life, after all.

But hey, I'm not arguing that V doesn't technically out-power Xykon by a combat-significant margin at this point (because IMO that'd be silly). The problem is V could easily lose that advantage due to the nature of the splice and Xykon's manipulative talents. Again, underestimating Xykon is historically one of the absolute worst things you can do in OotS.

[Kasavin]

I think I thought of a way for Xykon to win outright. After one or two rounds, he realizes he's in over his head. So, he casts Teleport of some for and transports himself and V to the Snarl's breach. Both get attacked, but since Xykon's soul is stashed safely elsewhere only V gets his soul destroyed.

[shadzar]

Dorukan and Xykon both could have been using no power at all other than what was in the headband. Technically this thing is an artifact. So it has unlimited power nearly. Xykon was likely not to best Soon, as he had been casting thing that day and was running low and scared. This means little in the grand scheme of things.

What I said earlier was simply V could have lost substantial power to no longer be more powerful than every arcane user in history.

The obverse could also be true and is not being denied.

For Belkar's sake I would love for V to win, and in the process lose the soul splices at the very last moment when it doesn't matter, and then have to go back to Kyrie and try to make up. Belkar would get miles of enjoyment from that!

But the odds are stacked against V for many reasons. Not the least of which is emotional state and the timer that is ticking.

There is no precedent in any D&D book I have ever read for this, and is subject to only one law. That would be Burlew's Law. So what happens to V will only be known when it is "penned to paper by the author" so to speak.

Anything can still happen when V rematerializes. That is what is so great about it. I haven't been able to predict squat that was coming next in this comic, or I probably would have quit reading it. it gets tiring when you know what comes next. I personally can only assume that like the fates have it the OOTS will screw something up.

BUT, V has done well without the other members around while spliced, so that weighs in favor of V.

We are all pretty much trying to weigh in on 2 unknowns and pick out favorite plausible theory. Maybe Adam and Jamye can bust the myths about epic spells and soul splices and Lich caster levels for us Wednesday. :smallbiggrin:

[JeptCloak]

I explained why the splice should still have him at a level vastly above Xykon.

There are 2 possible scenarios to consider:
1) Levels stack. If they do, Xykon is boned on paper.
2) Levels don't stack. This seems to be the one you're going for, so let's examine that.

a) The promise was to give power that would "dwarf" any arcane user in the history of the multiverse.
b) Haerta existed in the history of the multiverse
c) If the levels don't stack, then the contract is not meaningful under your theory. Your theory is basically "Maybe Haerta was [insert uber level, let's say 40], while the other 2 are not so great (let's say 25ish).
Here's the problem. Haerta's when she was alive would no longer be dwarfed by V when V started the splice. Because 2 level 25's + a 14th level Wizard give Haerta nothing. They make her a bit more flexible (but sacrificing say 15 levels for all the spells she didn't already have), while giving her no extra power at all, just more slots and spells (all vastly weaker). This doesn't meet the promise of the contract, nor what we've seen of Vs power thus far.

So for the contract promise to be true, at least one of the other wizards has to be a real threat to Haerta, able to plausibly hurt her, someone whose powers stacked onto her would "dwarf" her initial powers. They're all epics remember.

So you can have it whatever way you like. Stacking or no stacking. But either way, V is clearly way beyond Xykon at this point. I mean, what would the scenario be for Soon, Dorukan and Xykon under this logic? Haerta lvl 40, Ganoron lvl 35, Jephton lvl 27, with Xykon at 32, Dorukan at 30 and Soon (somehow) at 36 or something? It just seems completely implausible, and inconsistent with what we've seen thus far.

PS- and hopw does the headband being an artifact help Xykon's case? V still went right through it.

[Godskook]

I don't understand how that's reasonable. The guy can't dismiss Soon, but he can sever a soul splice put in place by higher beings? To call that reasonable is absurd. It's almost a perfect analogy in fact. He can't do anything to Soon's spirit, but he can somehow affect not only Epic Wizards spirits, but the chains which bind them? And I don't buy Xykon has any fear of Redcloak either.

1.You're mixing your magics. 'Turning' and 'Dismissal' are different concepts and function differently. Soon and the paladins never left the material plane, and thus probably can't be 'dismissed' at all, while 'turning' doesn't care what someone's home plane is, just if its positive or negative(apparently).

2.Its entirely possible that Redcloak can 'dismiss' something he can't 'turn', assuming something exists that would be vulnerable to both effects. 'Turning' has a hard cap on it, preventing clerics from using it on things of significantly higher level. 'Dismissal' has a soft cap, allowing you to try, but at reduced odds of success.

3.Rock, Scissors, Paper, dude. Just because X beats Y and Y beats Z doesn't mean that X beats Z. Any significantly complicated system that attempts balance is going to have cases of power triangles in them.

4.Planning goes a long way in D&D. Remember Soon? How long did he have that up his sleeve? Since before he died. Redcloak and Xykon walked in completely unprepared and got smacked. If they had been prepared? They'd have won, hands down; after all, Xykon lasted m. This time, we have V walking in unprepared. Odds are, he's going to regret it, going up against a more experienced improviser(Xykon).

5.Xykon didn't beat Dorukan thru trickery, he simply refused to fight on Dorukan's home turf. Wizards always win a contest of preparedness because they can cast literally anything. In a contest of improvised casting, a sorcerer of equal level has at least a fighting chance, 1-1.

6.There's not really anything about pure fighters that gauge their level past level 16, unless you can tell the difference between hitting hard and harder. Xykon could easily be off by any arbitrary amount.

7.Skipping the thoughts about caster-levels, we don't know if V has gained any new source of HP from this deal. If not, he's very vulnerable to Xykon's spells. Xykon can easily chuck maximized delayed fireballs at V, doing 120 damage, something that V's paltry 74 HP wouldn't stand a chance(numbers based on the geekery thread and the assumption that the soul splice doesn't give V any benefit in terms of HP - I gave V max possible HP on those numbers though). Or he can cast meteor swarm, doing 8x4d6 damage(32d6, which deals ~112 on average).

Frankly, I say its going to be a dragged-out fight that V realizes he can't win(Having spent too many slots already today), and teleports to safety, losing one soul mid-fight and releasing the other afterwards.

[shadzar]

2) Levels don't stack. This seems to be the one you're going for, so let's examine that.

a) The promise was to give power that would "dwarf" any arcane user in the history of the multiverse.
b) Haerta existed in the history of the multiverse
c) If the levels don't stack, then the contract is not meaningful under your theory. Your theory is basically "Maybe Haerta was [insert uber level, let's say 40], while the other 2 are not so great (let's say 25ish).
Here's the problem.

Condensing to save space rather than dismising portions....

Again I am guessing by stacking to mean V gets all this power to use, and the souls bound are just window dressing and modifiers to allow V to use this power. So I think I am saying they don't stack.

What I am saying is that... heck lets look at it....

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0633.html

I think the 5th panel is the key here.

"The amount of raw energy from your four combined souls would dwarf that wielded by any mortal arcane spellcaster that has ever lived."

I bolded the key parts I am addressing. It takes all 4 souls including Haera to dwarf and mortal arcane spellcaster that ever lived.

Now lets look at what we know now under that assumption.

Haera is gone. That power to dwarf is not in full anymore.

Xykon is not mortal. He was, but is no longer, and has gained a good bit of knowledge from the time he became a lich.

This tells us of two strong possibilities.

Even with all 4 souls Xykon was excluded as he was never mortal as he currently is at the power level of a lich. Liches aren't mortals.

Even if you assume it to include Xykon in his lich form since Xykon was once mortal, then one of the 4 combined souls is lost, meanign again the power is not the same as what was promised.

Next part, next panel.


:vaarsuvius: How long will it last?

Fiends: "For as long as you can hold onto it."

So "The amount of raw energy from your four combined souls would dwarf that wielded by any mortal arcane spellcaster that has ever lived", is only V's to command as long as V can hold onto the soul splice. Any lost souls results in a loss of that raw energy wielded by V.

[JeptCloak]

By "stack" I mean that the levels are added up. So if V is 14/15 and Ganoron is lvl 30, and Jephton is 25/26, then V is currently a lvl 70 Wizard (and was well over 100 before Haerta left probably). The alternative argument appears to be that he uses the separate abilities of each. I've addressed why this argument necessitates Ganoron (or Jephton) at least being somewhat near Haera in terms of power (in order for the claim of dwarfing any mortal arcane user to be correct, because Haera was clearly mortal).

Now, as I seem to read it you are advancing a theory that V's levels stack, but that Xykon might be loopholed out because he's not mortal, and hence is stronger still. Of course, this is dumb because:
a) Dorukan was at least a comprable arcane user (not as good, but able to give him a good fight, and Xykon apparently wouldn't take him on at home), and Dorukan was mortal.
b) That would mean Xykon would need to be somewhere around lvl 65+ to challenge V. That's absurd. Would that mean Soon is level 75? He'd almost have to be based on Xykon's Lich bonuses, and the fact that Soon was barely harmed while he beat Xykon.

[Cracklord]

Power to dwarf any mortal arcane spellcasters might just be the ability to polymorph them into dwarves...

And power beyond your wildest dreams seems pretty poor, given V doesn't actually sleep...

Sorry, I've been spending time on Belkar alignment threads and it has killed my brain.

[JeptCloak]

Power to dwarf any mortal arcane spellcasters might just be the ability to polymorph them into dwarves...

And power beyond your wildest dreams seems pretty poor, given V doesn't actually sleep...

Sorry, I've been spending time on Belkar alignment threads and it has killed my brain.

Well, that power would put him above Xykon by quite a bit too...

[shadzar]

Why does D have to have been uber for Xykon to have fought him? Could Xykon have learned nothing form all the junk D left laying around, like how to use cloister among other things found about him thanks to the diary?

Xykon could have gained large amounts of power after defeating D to take over his gate and castle.

"raw energy wielded by a mortal"

Just because D fought Xykon doesn't mean they were of the same power or amount of "raw energy". Xykon is pretty much all and only energy now!

I won't deny D was strong, but still think that it took all 4 souls, and that Xykon has gained power since fighting D that does not count to him being mortal.

Can I get Celia to come in here and explain this theory?

There is nothing saying V still has enough power or ever had enough power to dwarf Xykon's power, not is there anything to say the V had less power than or to defeat Xtkon. That is all I am saying.

V was weakened from the overall affect of the souls because a soul has gone AWOL.

Why does V still have to have "to dwarf" amounts after losing one soul?

Please quantity the power it takes in raw energy to dwarf that wielded by any mortal arcane spellcaster ever that lived in the history of the OOTS world, and then we can do the actual math.

[Oslecamo]

I feel sorry for V. He's gonna get curb stomped by the power of plot as Xykon pulls out some cheesy rule interpretation backed up by the DM.

But at least he's probably go down in a blaze of glory. Or not even that. Xykon probably has his personal quarters traped to hell and beyond.

[JeptCloak]

Why does D have to have been uber for Xykon to have fought him? Could Xykon have learned nothing form all the junk D left laying around, like how to use cloister among other things found about him thanks to the diary?

Xykon could have gained large amounts of power after defeating D to take over his gate and castle.

"raw energy wielded by a mortal"

Just because D fought Xykon doesn't mean they were of the same power or amount of "raw energy". Xykon is pretty much all and only energy now!

I won't deny D was strong, but still think that it took all 4 souls, and that Xykon has gained power since fighting D that does not count to him being mortal.

Can I get Celia to come in here and explain this theory?

There is nothing saying V still has enough power or ever had enough power to dwarf Xykon's power, not is there anything to say the V had less power than or to defeat Xtkon. That is all I am saying.

V was weakened from the overall affect of the souls because a soul has gone AWOL.

Why does V still have to have "to dwarf" amounts after losing one soul?

Please quantity the power it takes in raw energy to dwarf that wielded by any mortal arcane spellcaster ever that lived in the history of the OOTS world, and then we can do the actual math.

You need to make it clearer which theory you're advancing for each of the random stuff that's being posted. As I understand the difficulty of levelling with as you get higher, Xykon could be maybe 1-2 levels higher since he beat Dorukan. That's not meaningful in xykon's efforts against V unless you think Dorukan was like a level 60+ wizard.

I'm afraid I don't see the distinction about "raw energy" v.s lvl of Magic, and I don't think D&D does either. It's one you're desperately trying to use to justify how Xykon could be stronger. It comes across as very silly, and I don't even play D&D!

Anyway, you're just all over the place. I've outlined 2 theories about how the splice works (stack v.s non-stack), and either one he's boned. Rather than address my analysis, you keep posting the same repetetive thing as though I hadn't already addressed it. I have already, please re-read my posts. Seriously, just tell me flat out. Do you think Xykon is lvl 65+, or are you advancing another theory?

[shadzar]

I don't even play D&D!

Therein I think lies the problem. While I don't get half the jokes about 3.5, I get the gist of them through the context of the comics. I don't play 3.x so have now clue how it works with the mechanics. I can tell you however how Vancian magic worked and what I would see "raw energy" to mean.

1- it means what the fiends want it to mean in their contract, to just mean enough power with all 4 souls as defined by them.

2- the number of spell slots that can be memorized per day. The amount of energy per caster, including clerics aka divine casters, was limited to a certain number that of which was the limit of energy they could use. Or as Raist (Kiefer Sutherland) put it how much arcane energy they "could wrest from the very fabric of the universe".

After that amount they just didnt have it in the to use any more magic.

So the number of spell slots could be interpretted as the "raw energy" that could be wrested from the fabric of the universe. Our sorcerer friend tells us he need not prepare spells, meaning no time needed to memorize them and can cast anything he knows at anytime I am guessing. That is some mighty power stuff right there.

How pray tell if you don't play are you even coming up with levels for ever character, NPC, and random schmo in the comic strip?

I am saying "raw energy" means what the fiends mean for it to mean. As I am not a fictional fiend in the OOTS comic, I have no clue what they mean, and therein lies the problem with trying to figure out exeactly how much power V ever had at any point in time during the soul splice.

I am still saying that there is a chance that V never and no longer had the power to defeat Xykon even with the splices.

Do you deny that there is a chance that under whatever definitions you take with the contract of the splices presented within, that V has lost power, and that lost power could be in such a way way to reduce V's overall power in which V is unable to defeat Xykon?

[JeptCloak]

I asked you a question. You reply with another question (but in bold font!). Look, answer mine and I'll happily answer yours. I just want to know if you think Xykon is anywhere near lvl 65, and if not exactly where you think he is, and whether that stacks up with what we've seen him do in the comics thus far.

Your interpretation just seems wrong. Wrong because the Fiends need to lay down the facts of the deal in order to get his soul, and because V has since that point had plenty of time to try out his powers and obviously thinks that the remaining 2 splices are not only considerable in their power, but more than enough to fight a Lich who he has a pretty good idea about. All your wierd attempts to twist the wording of the contract to stuff that doesn't even seem to hold up in the D&D world ("raw power" means "how many spells you can cast"? WTF?), are just a distraction. They promised him power greater than any arcane user ever. He has since had 19 minutes in which to use and assess their powers... he obviously doesn't disagree with them, or think "gee, they gypped me on 2 of these guys!"

[Griever3216]

From D&D rules perspective I am not qualified to make an argument, so I will just just point out some plot-worthy sides.

We have seen Roy getting an easy victory against Xykon the first time being totally ineffective during their second match, so I expect something different this time.

Lirian was no match for Xykon, so we should not even compare her shapechange to V's. I want to believe that Xykon won the fight against Dorukan fair and square. He might have spammed a specific spell, but in the end his kung fu was stronger. He lost to Soon because of his nature and the fact that Xykon had run out of powerful spells at that point.

As for V, people are still trying to find loopholes to the contract and I understand them. However, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. If my memory serves me well, there were also people who thought V would even struggle against the ABD. This is more justifiable in this case as V has lost one of the souls and used up quite a few spells. Without the relevant information of how strong the souls are and how many spells they have remaining, it will be impossible to judge an outcome just depending on how powerful V or Xykon have demonstrated to be.

Even though the Giant has demonstrated that anyone can die, I doubt that Xykon will be permanently destroyed. There is more to Redcloak than just needing an arcane caster for the plan and that is his cause and loyalty to Xykon (SoD). It will be bad storytelling to build all this just to throw it away. I also doubt V will be killed as the fiends have plans for him, plans that seem to require him to be alive. Even though V can easily be resurrected if the plot demands so.

So what I see as a possible outcome is a big fight. This is in good agreement with the fact that it is Jephton's time to shine. V may or may not destroy Xykon, but he will never make it to the phylactery. This may even serve for plot reasons for Redcloak to be somewhere else, possibly torturing O' Chul. The rest of the team Evil/army can be easily blocked from affecting the battle, just like Roy's dad during the Fyron-Xykon showdown.

No matter how much ghost of a chance Xykon stands against V, he has shown how much he can surprise/outsmart his opponents when required. He may mess with V so much that he will lose another soul. In fact, I do expect V to lose Ganonron during the battle which may or may not tip the balance. I expect this to happen as a result from a surprising hit from Xykon, combined with the fact that V will be shocked that even with ultimate arcane power he is not effective enough to beat him.

This brings me to the next point. Do the levels of the souls stack or not? According to the contract, if they do not, then even Jephton on his own will be capable of holding against Xykon. Otherwise, once Ganonron is lost, V may be in the trouble required to disrupt his plans. Even if V just pops in and destroys Xykon as easily as he exterminated a room full of paladins, there will still be a factor that will affect V afterwards to lose Ganonron (or even during the teleport). However, it seems more reasonable for them to have a lengthy fight for Jephton to shine.

I also want to point out that no matter the outcome of the fight, or whether Redcloak/MITD save the day, the fact is that V will eventually fail to accomplish his mission, thus adding insult to injury to magic not being the solution to everything. V may still shine during the battle, but it will not be a perfect win. He may even go as far losing Ganonron during the teleport, shine during the battle and eventually lose Jephton afterwards as well. However, he will still need a means to get out of there for the reasons I mentioned at the beginning.

Last but not least, I would like to point out the possibility of O' Chul helping with the battle, or simply V's raid being his ticket to freedom. :smallwink:

[The Pilgrim]

My prediction is that Xykon will defeat V thanks to two things:

- Team Work (Redcloack, Monster in the Darkness, etc...)
- A non-arcane magic trick (involving either Redcloack's divine magic or MitD massive strenght)

That is, Xykon will defeat V thanks to the kind of things V has dismissed.

[Sir_Norbert]

One thing I don't think anyone's taken into account:

As soon as I saw Belkar's speech bubble in this comic I thought, "Aha, now we know how he gets to cause the death of the elf."

[Cúchulainn]

One thing I don't think anyone's taken into account:

As soon as I saw Belkar's speech bubble in this comic I thought, "Aha, now we know how he gets to cause the death of the elf."

Oh snap, this made me laugh. Well spotted. :smalltongue:

[ZeroNumerous]

I don't understand how that's reasonable. The guy can't dismiss Soon, but he can sever a soul splice put in place by higher beings?

If you must know: Dictum (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dictum.htm). Non-lawful extraplanar beings are instantly sent back to their home planes. Being dead spirits from whichever Hell they've been summoned from, the soul splices are strictly of the Extraplanar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#extraplanarSubtype) subtype. So whoever isn't lawful(my bets on whoever said to "kill everything that opposes you") goes poof. No save.

Alternatively, Banishment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/banishment.htm) works just as well, but gives a save. At your assumed level of 16, then Redcloak can banish a full 32 HD of extraplanar beings.

Actually, something as simple as Protection from Good (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/protectionFromGood.htm) halts Possession(like a soul splice) or mental influence for it's duration.

Or, Polymorph Any Object (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorphAnyObject.htm). Redcloak choses Elf Zombie. PAO offers no save, is ranged, and grants the target the Intelligence score of the subject. Zombie INT scores? --. Yes, that's right. They have no Intelligence score. And since the Soul Splice is in V's control that means Redcloak negates the two souls as well. Redcloak wins.

Finally, the only fiend that cannot lie about the deal it made is the Devil due to being the living embodiment of Law and Evil. The yugoloth? The demon? Fully capable of lying.

[The Dark Fiddler]

Here's what I think:

There will be no battle.

Think about it, V's just getting shown up constantly now, why stop, if it's doing such a good job at the supposed purpose of showing the folly of her keeping the splice? Either team evil will be gone, or, more likely (to make him feel worse) she won't be able to break Xykon's anti-teleport thingy. Of course, he could always break into the city normally after teleporting near the city, but... eh... that's not V's current style.

[Frog Dragon]

There's one think that might tip the scales to Xykon's favor. HP. I'm guessing V kept his old HP even though he's gained epic magic out the wazoo. His old Elf Con HP for level 14. I'm not seeing too much numbers here. V's gone out with no buffs. If Xykon gets Initiative then it might just taken one spell to take V out.

[JeptCloak]

There's one think that might tip the scales to Xykon's favor. HP. I'm guessing V kept his old HP even though he's gained epic magic out the wazoo. His old Elf Con HP for level 14. I'm not seeing too much numbers here. V's gone out with no buffs. If Xykon gets Initiative then it might just taken one spell to take V out.

No buffs... except all the ones he stacked on that stopped an ABD from harming him... plus he was healed once by elan, so he's back to max. He's probably got more buffs on right now than Xykon.

[homeosapiens]

I thnik V is way over Xykon's head with the power (s)he now holds, and stil will be when conjurer is gone. Xykon is a toast like 100% if they will fight. But...

If Xykon will be prepared, V will have some truble in there.

If Xykon will not be prepared, wich doesnt seem like a distinct possibility to me, he ll die outright, maybe grow back later, or V going to be the next villian.

To all guys that think Xykon stands a chance - V didnt get exp from ABD which was a thret equal to Xykon most possible LV(chat with Roy). I estimate X is not above 21. V just cant lose since he is master of using spells in a good way and Rich ALWAYS did bad things to him. V ll not lose with spliced power's 100%.

Scene with V blasting through army of hobbos and executing Team Evil would be nice, but what then? My guess this will involve something we just dont know about yet. Dont think it's gonna be MitD thought.

There was sth said that 2 members will die so i guess it is V's turn. Belkar shortly therafter.

[Elan man]

Vaarsuvius will go to Xykon and redcloak or Xykon will use something like hold person and
Isn't it obvious Mitd is going to be revealed
And Mitd is going to kick V's sorry but all the way back to the OOTS

[JeptCloak]

Vaarsuvius will go to Xykon and redcloak or Xykon will use something like hold person and
Isn't it obvious Mitd is going to be revealed
And Mitd is going to kick V's sorry but all the way back to the OOTS

"Hold of hopelessness"
"Grasp of Gentleness!"

Yeh, hold person will work for sure...

[bue52]

Has anyone considered Cloister negating the splice?

[Holammer]

V will utterly annihilate Xykon.
Redcloak will be elsewhere with the phylactery.

Everyone wins!

[kalkyrie]

My guess is that V will teleport in, and vastly outclass Xykon.
Xykon will then use words to cause V to lose soul splices.

A more precise guess is that Xykon will make his (Spellcraft?) skill check and notice V has sold rented his soul to demons.
He'll then give a 'Welcome to Team Evil' speech, and metaphorically hand over the keys to the BBEG car to V. Along with some kittens to murder.
V will realise how far he has fallen, and mentally break down.
Uncertain as to whether he'll teleport out or not.

[Skeletoff]

Xykon casts protective spells, V casts disjunction, destroys Crimson Mantle, loses spellcasting abilities forever, possible?

[Deliverance]

If you must know: Dictum (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dictum.htm). Non-lawful extraplanar beings are instantly sent back to their home planes. Being dead spirits from whichever Hell they've been summoned from, the soul splices are strictly of the Extraplanar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#extraplanarSubtype) subtype. So whoever isn't lawful(my bets on whoever said to "kill everything that opposes you") goes poof. No save.

According to your link, the banishment effect of Dictum allows a will save with a -4 penalty, so it is hardly a "no save" situation as you state. That's only if the spellcaster has more caster levels than the target has hit dice, by the way, since anybody with more hit dice than the caster level is completely unaffected by all aspects of Dictum.

I do not know the hit dice of a disembodied epic evil sorcerer or wizard spirit/whatever since it is a decade or so since I played D&D (except bastardized in computer games), but I would not be surprised if they beat Redcloak's level (I'm sure anybody with more recent knowledge can say whether that is the case)

Nor do I know if those damned souls have spell resistance (which Dictum does not negate) and which is also applicable to all your other suggestions. Sure, it might be zero - but then again, it might not.

That aside, one could question what possible reason Redcloak could have to walk around with Dictum memorized/prayed every day, given that his enemies tend to be lawful while his more consequential allies tend not to be. At least his hobgoblins are usually lawful evil, so it isn't equivalent to carrying a friend-nuking spell around (which it would have been with his old goblin contingent), but it comes awfully close.




Polymorph Any Object (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorphAnyObject.htm). Redcloak choses Elf Zombie. PAO offers no save, is ranged, and grants the target the Intelligence score of the subject. Zombie INT scores? --. Yes, that's right. They have no Intelligence score. And since the Soul Splice is in V's control that means Redcloak negates the two souls as well. Redcloak wins.

With regards to Redcloak casting "Polymorph any Object", it would seem you need to assume that a) he was capable of casting it in the first place - I don't remember seeing any evidence in the strip of Redcloak having the Trickery domain (having cast none of the spells from it, nor used the class skills it grant, nor behaving like a trickster, and his god not appearing much of a trickster type either, being more of a law/justice/war type), though I might be wrong, and b) goes around with it memorized on a regular basis. b) can of course be handwaved away as needed.

I have no idea why you state that PAO offers no save given that the link you present explicitly states that it has a Fortitude Negates saving throw.


Both Banishment and PAO also suffer from the "how the hell do you target it if you don't know it is there and/or cannot see it" issue. This, of course, is the easist to workaround by the Power of Plot.




Actually, something as simple as Protection from Good (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/protectionFromGood.htm) halts Possession(like a soul splice) or mental influence for it's duration.

It seems rather optimistic that a Protection from Good/Evil should be able to block the soul splice's connection (no possession here) or mental influence with V when V was able to cast Mind Blank on himself during the dragon fight without affecting the connection.


--- In practice, it will all be determined by the power of the plot anyway. (The biggest question being: Has Xykon been watching Teevo the last 20 minutes or not). Just about any outcome that isn't predicated on Team Evil just happening to have all the proper spells available to break V easily will work, just like any outcome that doesn't end the entire story in 5-10 panels from now will work. :)

Personally I'm in the "It is time to see a big inconclusive fight to get Team Evil squarely back in the story and for V to depower down to regular levels in while kicking arse and taking names, a brief time of glory that does not result in ultimate success" preference, i.e. demonstrating to V that even when he has his near ultimate arcane power and uses it for all it is worth, he can still fail to accomplish his goals..

[Trixie]

It seems like a ridiculous stretch given Soon out and out destroyed Xykon. Xykon had a little whittling, but he'd been healed with negative energy not long before, and most of the ghosts were vanished quickly afterwards. Soon was barely hurt, and he won. Which makes it pretty clear in a fair fight Soon's spirit would win.

[facepalms] NOT. :smallsigh:

We had that discussion dozens of times, and it was agreed that:

They fought in sanctified room
Paladins were made into a good undeads, increasing their power greatly;
Soon & the rest were incorporeal;
Xykon was damaged and used a few spells already;
He, as a caster, fought in melee;
His opponents were all melee, enchanced warriors;
And finally, Xykon was using first (!) level spells (!!!).


And yet, he nearly won.

Excuse me?

He was so greatly handicapped it isn't funny (minus 90% of his power, easily), and yet, he almost stomped his opposition, and wiped the floor with Soon, losing only because of a stupid distraction. If he simply blasted his again victory would be his. :smallsigh:

Or is he evacuated a turn earlier, asked Tsukiko to use all her remaining negative spells on him, and simply returned to burn Soon to a crisp.

[Dr. Cthulwho]

1, 2, 3, 4, I declare a forum war!

...Between the people saying "Vaarsuvius will kill Xykon in 1 round, tops" and the people saying "Xykon will kill Vaarsuvius in 1 round, tops." i.e., put your V vs Xykon arguments here, so the main forum won't be cluttered up with fifteen different threads on the same topic.

I honestly don't know what will happen. It could go either way.

Hmmm. Assuming V managed to teleport in and find Xykon alone, and they engaged in a fair magic duel, just the two of them, with whatever spells, items etc they have at hand...

Well, in that scenario I see V taking it most of the time (say 7-8/10), considering where the splice puts him/her.

But it wont be like that. Especially since stories are rarely one on one "on paper I should always win" affairs, especially with plot and characterization entering into the equation.

There are a lot of variables. V is teleporting into the what has been Xykon's base of operations for months. Through an epic spell designed to stop people doing things like that (and taking some effort too - "Nothing I can't - nnnh - handle!"). With no real idea what he will be facing. And Xykon is a very tough opponent. V just scream hubris at the moment.

Best case scenario (for V) V defeats Xykon, Redcloak escapes again. But that would be a bit samey. Most likely scenario: a number of factors lead to V failing to destroy Xykon (or Xykon defeating V), and it all going very bad for V.

[eras10]

Jeph,

Let me clear some things up for you. You're a good debater and you have half a point, but you're interpretations are too rigid to be good ones, except of course in reference to your expectations.

To clarify, b/c this is complicated:

#1. It seems clear that, on paper, V is still stronger than Xykon. Let's get that out of the way. Xykon is not level 60. Dorukan wasn't level 60. Soon wasn't level 60.

The only caster who we have any reason to believe was "way-epic" so far was Haera - from info from the fiends, but mostly because Familicide was an *incredibly* powerful spell. We have no evidence that suggests that anyone else in the comic, including Jepthon and Gannoron, are over, say, 25. Sure, they could be higher, but we don't have any reason to believe it. Epic Teleport isn't really a super-impressive spell - it's the same power as before, but applied to mass numbers. You can get a lot of similar mass spells without going epic at all. Plus, he's a conjurer - this is his strength.

Epic levels are very slow to gain, and they're powerful. Which is why only a teeny fraction of epic casters make it another 10 levels. The point is, they don't need to be more than even 2 or 3 levels above Xykon to be more powerful than Xykon - Epic levels are bigger jumps. And I, for one, don't think they are.

Your argument that Gannoron has to be "nearly as powerful as Haera" is from this:

a) The promise was to give power that would "dwarf" any arcane user in the history of the multiverse.
b) Haerta existed in the history of the multiverse
c) If the levels don't stack, then the contract is not meaningful under your theory. Your theory is basically "Maybe Haerta was [insert uber level, let's say 40], while the other 2 are not so great (let's say 25ish)
Here's the problem. Haerta's when she was alive would no longer be dwarfed by V when V started the splice. Because 2 level 25's + a 14th level Wizard give Haerta nothing. They make her a bit more flexible (but sacrificing say 15 levels for all the spells she didn't already have), while giving her no extra power at all, just more slots and spells (all vastly weaker). This doesn't meet the promise of the contract, nor what we've seen of Vs power thus far.

This is all a bunch of assumptions on highly debatable ground. Your opinion that, with Haera at lvl 40, adding 2 more level 25 spellcasters and a 14 to her is not adding anything of value, is rubbish.

First: Haera was a necromancer. She probably had barred schools. If it was evocation, she can now cast fireball for the first time in her life. If it was conjuration, she can now teleport. Etc. That's a big deal. Second: when you've been merged with a sorcerer, you gain their advantages. Flexibility is a *big* deal. It means that unexpectedly need a very specific spell, you can actually cast it instead of just dying because you didn't prepare it. Lastly, how on earth are you arguing that giving the V amalgam 65 additional caster levels on top of Haera is "not significant?" These estimates will be off, maybe badly, but they'll make the point - Haera goes from being able to cast 100 spells a day to 250 spells a day. that's pretty flipping significant. Oh, and she gets an extra six or so epic spells. That's nothing like insignificant. That's not even remotely insignificant.

So, even If Heara/Gan/Jepth are 40/25/25, the V amalgam dwarfs Haera. And frankly, level 40 is overkill. Again, epic levels are more important than regulars, and note that seven or eight levels in disadvantage tpyically gets you creamed. Something like ~35/25/25, 32/25/25, or even 30/25/25, would be sufficient.

So, this assumes the splices don't stack. And I don't think they do. If they did, V would have been level.. using my assumptions.. 94. With 400 hit points, why even bother with stoneskin? I mean, she buffed her *protection from spells*. At level 94, anything ABD casts with a saving throw is an automatic save.

Now, V did seem pretty tough, so i could imagine that she's using the stats of the highest remaining soul, but even that is conjecture.

Lastly: even though I can make this case without getting into how rigidly you should interpret a contract made with fiends - you're still interpreting it way too strictly. They're fiends, man. They play pretty fast and loose with the truth. According to their standards, they could have screwed V over much worse than they did on actual power while still fulfilling the contract. They could have given her an amount of potential power that was the most ever in one place while making it impossible to use beyond a 14'th-level Wizard. Heck, even as it is, V can be completely broken by an *unpleasant surprise of 0d0 damage*. How powerful is that?

Lastly, you underestimate Xykon (improving there, but nevertheless), and you're too rigid with relative power. Ray killed a lich eight levels higher than him with some quick thinking. Heck, 14'th level V killed a demon nine stories high and casting meteor swarms. But she was almost whacked by a death knight that had less HD than she had levels, because it matched up well against her. The list of people Xykon killed who were stronger than him at the time was Fryon for sure, and probably Lirian (and if he was stronger than her, she beat him the first time). Yes, Soon beat Xykon, but he was low on spells - he says so himself - and *deliberately* distracting him so that Redcloak could handle the Ghost Army. Not only that, but Soon was *more* powerful in death than in life - and any fighter who gets off 3 or 4 rounds of attacks against a wizard without being neutralized will kill him, even if he's five levels lower. A lich is in a better position, but the point is that classes matter. And Paladins are literally made to kill undead. What I'm saying here is that if I had to pick a 20'th level Wizard vs. a 20th level Paladin to fight a 20-HD lich, take the Paladin every time.

So, in conclusion - the V gestalt is more powerful than Xykon, but this is not addition or subtraction. It's calculus. They're both unique characters - even leaving out psychology, which is a foolish thing to do, Xykon has unique strengths and the V-gestalt has weaknesses. In a straight-up fair attrition battle, it would be screwy if Xykon won, but no more so than Roy taking a prepped and rested Xykon out in the dungeon with his team neutralized.
But it's not a 1-on-1 attrition battle, and there's no way it will be. It's V vs. Xykon plus, maybe immediately, maybe within a few rounds, Redcloak, Tsuiko, and a hobgoblin army. Even if you deal with those threats in one spell per problem, that's 3 rounds in which you can't concentrate on Xykon.

I'd call gestalt-V vs. Xykon, Redcloak, Tsuikiko and 100 hobgoblins a nearly even fight.

This took me about 90 minutes to write.

[Dr. Cthulwho]

He was so greatly handicapped it isn't funny (minus 90% of his power, easily), and yet, he almost stomped his opposition, and wiped the floor with Soon, losing only because of a stupid distraction. If he simply blasted his again victory would be his. :smallsigh:

Close. Against massive odds Xykon managed to survive long enough for Redcloak to arrive and come up with a plan, since Xykon was only holding out, not really winning.

Team Evil seemed to have it, but Soon managed to put them both down, finally at the end. The distraction saved Xykon and Redcloak. They never really seemed on top of Soon, beyond hurting him by getting rid of the spectral Paladins.

But I agree with the sentiment. Even facing such with a handicap Xykon did very well.


Or is he evacuated a turn earlier, asked Tsukiko to use all her remaining negative spells on him, and simply returned to burn Soon to a crisp.

That probably would have been his best bet, but this is Xykon. He probably forgot about her a minute after he left her and started having fun with the Paladins :smallbiggrin:

[Palliard]

The x-factor here: the fiends. Specifically, the IFCC had been keeping an eye on V, and singled him out for this soul-splicing deal. They know a lot about V and the rest of the party, and must have expected that he would go on to attack Xykon.

Being that this was set up, what is their agenda? And this is their deal, I'm sure the fiends didn't give a crap about V's family or any black dragons, but the fate of the entire world is something else again.

[TazTheTerrible]

V vs. Xykon, who will win?

Whoever has the most plot-inertia. Duh. :smallamused:

[Revenant]

Dorukan and Xykon both could have been using no power at all other than what was in the headband. Technically this thing is an artifact. So it has unlimited power nearly.
Xykon says (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html): "It's either a lame hippie hairband, or the material focus for the most powerful abjuration ever. Probably both."

Nothing there requires the item to be magical in any way, merely to conform to the spell's specifications for a focus, somewhat like Shapechange (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shapechange.htm).

Speaking of shapechange, I can't help but notice that V doesn't seem to need a focus to cast it. Neither has V needed to provide components for the epic spells cast, both of which had minimal casting times (1 round or less). This implies that the spliced souls can provide components/foci, in addition to presumably boosted Spellcraft checks to hit those Epic Spell DCs. Interesting.

Edit: eras10, well put. Lots of good points in there.

[Blackeagle]

I think we've seen a pretty reasonable display of Xykon's ability. Someone who needed a trick to beat Dorukan

What trick? Xykon didn't trick Dorukan, he just leveled him with energy drain after energy drain. No trickery involved. The entire point of that battle was that a sorcerer could beat a wizard through the application of raw power.

[The Pilgrim]

So, this assumes the splices don't stack. And I don't think they do. If they did, V would have been level.. using my assumptions.. 94. With 400 hit points, why even bother with stoneskin? I mean, she buffed her *protection from spells*. At level 94, anything ABD casts with a saving throw is an automatic save.

I agree with you. Casting levels are merging, but not game Levels.

For HP's, or Saves, V is probably still a Lvl ¿14? elf wizard.

[Kaytara]

Speaking of shapechange, I can't help but notice that V doesn't seem to need a focus to cast it. Neither has V needed to provide components for the epic spells cast, both of which had minimal casting times (1 round or less). This implies that the spliced souls can provide components/foci, in addition to presumably boosted Spellcraft checks to hit those Epic Spell DCs. Interesting.


I don't think it has anything to do with the Splice. Vaarsuvius was able to cast Force Cage without any visible material component, too. I'd say the comic just doesn't keep track of material components except where it's plot (in)convenient (such as Resurrecting someone). We get a few times where bat guano is acknowledged as the material component for the Fireball spell, but that's it.

[Half-Orc Rage]

Well, Xykon is probably above level 20 and is a lich, but V has two spellcasters in her head that are about a similar level. I think for sheer spells V has X beat, but liches have all kinds of immunities and stuff that make them tougher than 14th level elves like you're all pointed out.

However, I think we've seen Xykon making magical items on a regular basis, as he does not need sleep. He should have a ton stored up by now. Also, whereas V has been powerful for a short period of time now, Xykon has had longer to work out cool ways to use his spells in a fight.

And V split up the party. That's just stupid.

[Knaight]

One think that has been overlooked. Ganoran(or whatever the name is) will probably be lost in the teleport, leaving only the sorcerer. A sorcerer who Xykon may very well have known and been friends with in life. So far the evil souls have only done things they wanted to do, slaughtering the black dragon and then pulling out Familicide was fun for them. Butchering the golem was also entertaining. But killing Xykon, who may very well have been a friend or ally, or at least someone very highly respected? A little less likely.

Plus the way the spells have been shown being cast, it doesn't look like the levels stack, meaning that we may be looking at what is essentially a 15th level wizard, getting help from an uncooperative 25th level sorcerer, against another sorcerer, who may also be level 25. Haera did not need to be level 40, familicide was ridiculous, but with all the specialization it could be managed by level 30. V with all 4 splices would be way more powerful than Haera if that was the case.

In addition, Xykon has help from Redcloak, and possibly the Monster in the Darkness.

[Woodsman]

Xykon will win.

Simple weapon proficiency.

[Ovaltine Patrol]

V initially does well, but Xyklon goofiness and wordplay will frustrate V until the other two caster-souls are lost. Bingo bango, V learns an important lesson just in time to take an all expenses paid trip to all the bad parts of the afterlife. Then, the other shoe drops.

[Deploy]

I think Vaarsuvius will teleport in and Xykon will be totally ready and say something along the lines of "what took you so long?" He'll then tell V that familicide was a very interesting spell and that he looked forward to using it on V. V astonished asks Xykon how on Earth he had this knowledge of Familicide. Xykon then lets V know that Haera dropped in to tell Xykon exactly how to defeat V. Xykon then proceeds to wipe the floor with V and use Familicide to kill every member of his family. Xykon will keep Vaarsuvius alive of course and tell him that next time he comes to face a main antagonist it's with something a little more original than a triple Faustian Bargain. v will then be teleported back to the others and lament about how badly V sucks. Roy will come back and ask about the "subcontractors" and tell V to release them immediately. Hilarity will likely ensue as V attempts to explain why the souls are a good thing despite the fact they were given by three beings of complete evil. Someone will probably already have said something like this but it's what I think will happen.

[i6uuaq]

on a fairly unrelated note, i doubt Xykon will be particularly prepped to face an attack inside his "own" castle. he will be relying on the epic cloister spell to protect him from unwanted intrusions, and is known to be fairly dismissive of contingency plans and planning in general. V might catch him in the bath or something.

Actually that sounds like it might work itself into a nice plot point. V teleports in, finds Xykon watching "As the World turns" on his Teevo. V launches into hir usual long diatribe, but Xykon just goes like, "Shush, I can't hear what Melinda is saying!" That'll be punchline for one strip, before the casting actually begins.

As some of you have mentioned, caster levels etc are less relevant in the OotS-verse than plot points. Xykon may/may not be there. Redcloak may/may not be there. I'm just gonna wait for the next comic.

[AkodoKoji]

Xykon casts Disintegrate. Then Gust of Wind. V's fortitude save is still going to be pretty bad and thats assuming that he gets the full power boost and not just spells.

[Flickerdart]

Xykon casts Disintegrate. Then Gust of Wind. V's fortitude save is still going to be pretty bad and thats assuming that he gets the full power boost and not just spells.
Some if not all of the buffs V cast against the Black Dragon will still be up, due to his insane caster level at the time. Protection from Spells and Bear's Endurance together give V a +10 bonus on Fortitude Saves versus Spells, and will last something like 1000 and 100 minutes respectively, depending on the CL at the time. More than 20 minutes at any rate, even if the CLs don't stack, since the casters were all Epic.

[Undead Prince]

First of all, glad to see things are finally moving towards a good magic battle. I mean, spending time witnessing exploits of low-level rogues and NPC classes grew kinda tedious.


This battle has been lost by Vaarsuvius in the opening move. He/she has just teleported in blind, without any scrying (or recon of any sort). That alone should be all the edge Xykon needs to obliterate the elf.


Not quite true.

If V was merely teleporting to Azure City, he wouldn't need an Epic Teleport. A mundane Greater Teleport would have sufficed (and would have failed due to Cloister).

No, what he, or more correctly Ganonron, is doing, is breaking through the Cloister. Something V started here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0643.html), but didn't get to finish (talk about coitus interruptus).

To break through an epic warding enchantment, one would need a very powerful dispelling. Which means Ganonron's Epic Teleport includes an Epic Dispel Seed.

And the Dispel Seed destroys not just one particular spell, but all spell effects in the area / on target.

So all of Xykon's Dimension Locks, Anticipate Teleportations, Contingencies etc. would be dispelled along with the Cloister.

In fact, V could even get a Surprise round. In which case, Xykon is certainly toast (one Time Stop is enough).

And if Xykon is not in Azure City, well, he's just one Epic Scry + Epic Teleport away.

/wishful thinking.


Seriously though. V may have the power. Unfortunately, he does not have half a brain to wield it.

More gently put, his mental capabilities, below par from the outset (he was about as worthless a wizard as one could play in DnD), seem to have deteriorated vastly after his victory over ABD (the only time he was shown to have some sort of a clue).

Moreover, the plot seems to be railroading into V's spectacular defeat, a capstone to all the minor failures he suffered so far. He also needs to lose the splice for balance purposes (and has already demonstrated the capacity to do it easily), and simultaneously, the fiends have to show what effect they were expecting from the deal with V.

So, I believe the outcome of the upcoming battle will not be decided by spellcasting savvy, but rather entirely depend on the direction the plot is supposed to take thereafter.



1. Epic Teleport does not have Epic Dispel included. Or, it works differently than by the rules.

2. Xykon is gone from Azure City; he's by Girard's Gate now.

3. V pursues him blindly, runs afoul of Xykon's many magical precautions, earns himself a humiliating defeat, barely escapes, but his ego is shattered and he loses the splice (ending up owing the fiends hundreds of rounds of control over his soul).

4. OoTS is reunited once more, with resurrected Roy and humbled V, and with Xykon poised to take control of the Gate. Chapter ends.

- P.S. The fiends really do need control over V's soul. If they didn't, they would not have demanded it of V, making the deal ever so sweeter and leaving no reason for V to reject it. Perhaps this means they get to mentally dominate him. Or they actually whisk his soul away into the Abyss, and replace it with one (or more!) of their evil caster souls taking command of V's body. In any case, for drama reasons this would probably take place when the Order is engaged in a final confrontation with Xykon over one of the remaining Gates. -

[Flickerdart]

Cloister is permeable by Epic magic, we already know this. Ganonron doesn't have to Dispel anything.

[AkodoKoji]

Have we seen the sorcerer's epic spell yet? If we havent I think we might be seeing it soon.

[torugo]

Too many replies...I hope I dont repeat someone here...

I think V may pass by a turbulence and loose iniciative, but also I believe Xykon will be surprised by an elf poping up in front of him. Anyway, even if Xykon acts first, there is no real reason for him to cast an epic spell right a way. Xykon usually considers others not to be a threat. He might even wait V do something before he starts casting spells.

I think Xykon will win in the end, even because he has red cloak's help. This takes to 2 possibilities...either V dies and goes to hell pay the debt or he scapes for a few humiliated. Considering how difficult would be to recover V's body to ressurrect her, I would say she will scape for a little bit.

[yesman]

V will kill Redcloak, but not Xykon because she's too powerful to not kill anyone, but not powerful enough to kill Xykon.
Xykon, being Xykon will just move on to the hobgoblin cleric and forget about redcloak altogether.

[Animefunkmaster]

Well Xykon was killed by Roy, originally. I would say V is a lot stronger/smarter in hir current condition and should be able to defeat Xykon no problem (maybe not round 1, but in a few rounds, sure). However, there is a problem regarding finding Xykon, the Cloister Effect, the Phylactery, and the Fiends plan that could throw a wrench in V's effort.

Otherwise, THANK GOD V IS DOING THIS! I am sure most of you wanted to see this, I did. I am so glad that V is facing Xykon while she still has some soul mojo.

Also, how long did the fiends say an average caster can hold on to the effect? I didn't think it was anywhere close to 19 minutes.

[Logalmier]

I think V is probably more powerful than Xycon, but like Roy said, Xycon is clever. He'll think of some way to undermine V, and that will be her downfall. All that power has made V overconfident, so that he probably won't care about anything that Xycon can do to him, he'll just start blasting away, heedless of the danger.

[Inkling]

I think Xykon will kill V in comic 666. Unfortunately. And then, because his/her soul will still be in the hands of the three beings, s/he will go to the hells.

[roy_greenhilt]

V doesn't lose her powers right before defeating Xykon and the MITD doesn't make a triumphant return.

[Undead Prince]

Cloister is permeable by Epic magic, we already know this. Ganonron doesn't have to Dispel anything.

I, for one, always understood Celia's "unless they were using epic magic, too" as referring to Cloister being reasonably dispellable only by Epic Spells (and nothing short of Disjunction would work on a decent level Cloister, considering the limited nature of the Dispel Magic line).

Otherwise, with Cloister not protecting against Epic Magic at all, would make it a practically useless spell, and not "THE most powerful abjuration EVER".

Epic evil casters have had to be common enough in OoTS-verse, what with the three evil souls and with Dorukan actually falling to a caster who was almost epic himself. Such a gap in Cloister would have been a much grander hole than not protecting against summoning spells (on which Roy immediately commented).

And cost-wise, a Ward against all spells up to 9th level costs 174 DC at the base. To include Epic spells, which count as 10th level spells for such purposes, would increase the cost to 194, i.e. by about 13% - a negligible increase in cost vs. an immense increase in usefulness.

But, in OoTS such things are to be expected. Like I said, nothing more than wishful thinking on my part.


For reference:
Seed: Ward (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/seeds/ward.htm)

A ward against magic creates an immobile, faintly shimmering magical sphere (with radius 10 feet) that surrounds the caster and excludes all spell effects of up to 1st level. Alternatively, the caster can ward just the target and not create the radius effect. For each additional level of spells to be excluded, increase the Spellcraft DC by +20 (but see below). The area or effect of any such spells does not include the area of the ward, and such spells fail to affect any target within the ward. This includes spell-like abilities and spells or spell-like effects from magic items. However, any type of spell can be cast through or out of the ward. The caster can leave and return to the protected area without penalty (unless the spell specifically targets a creature and does not provide a radius effect). The ward could be brought down by a targeted dispel magic spell. Epic spells using the dispel seed may bring down a ward if the enemy spellcaster succeeds at a caster level check. The ward may also be brought down with a targeted epic spell using the destroy seed if the enemy spellcaster succeeds at a caster level check.

Instead of creating an epic spell that uses the ward seed to nullify all spells of a given level and lower, the caster can create a ward that nullifies a specific spell (or specific set of spells). For each specific spell so nullified, increase the Spellcraft DC by +2 per spell level above 1st.

[King of Nowhere]

Ok, putting together a few things from this thread and oots 650, I now understand (or think to understand) lot of things.

1) V has no control undead, and that's why Haerta left. Sure, probably ganoron knew the spell too, but when V prepared the spells, he surely used Haerta's slots to prepare control undead, since she was the stronger and probably had spell focus, eventually greater or epic. So when she left V lost those spell slots, and now he don't have a save or die against Xykon. So he's left to blasting, while Xykon has plenty of kill spell against V.

2) Belkar's comment about killing Xykon in 5 strips may come true, or may just be a feint. Still I find it a masterful move from Rich, leaving us readers to wonder if it was foreshadowing or feint.

3) V just expressed his disdainfulness (does this word exist?) for divine spells. And Xykon has Redcloak with him. I would bet that Redcloak will play a decisive role in the battle. After all, V is still vulnerable to a destruction or disintegrate. I'm sure Redcloack's DC for saving throws is considerably higher that that of the dragon.

Still, I wouldn't bet on the result of the fight. I don't think V will die, because breaking the order again don't seems a good plot. Or, if V dies, will be resurrected without many problems. But I'm sure V will be deeply changed from this battle.

[shadzar]

I would be surprised if the teleport works and V doesn't lose that soul splice leaving V with just the sorcerer left.

I wonder if that would change V's attire when another soul goes?

[Flickerdart]

Except Jepthon doesn't have to prepare anything, so all of the spells from that splice could be fed into Control Undeads. Well, except the low level ones.

[Leta]

Hmm. Xykon has consistently defeated wizards better than he is in some pretty dumb, brute-force ways.

Even so, I have three-hundred gp on the elf. Anyone want to take me up on that?

[David Argall]

Exactly. Vaarsuvius has failed to consider three things. One; Redcloak can offer an endless stream of negative energy to heal Xykon, and has a legion of hobgoblin clerics to help out. Two: Xykon has a turn to ope fire before V can so much as blink, and the evil peoples are on Xykons side. Three: Meteor storm.

And then V shall be truly humbled.

Not a bit. She yawns, asks "Finished yet?" Then casts Epic teleport minions, getting rid of all but Xykon. A quickened Destroy Lich spell later, V is wondering whether to play with the Rift or just go back to the party.

[spargel]

V's probably going to get hit by some Deus Angst Machinas or Idiot Balls.

Since this comic likes to take unpredictable turns, I doubt that V is simply going to lose.

[Da'Shain]

Question: What happens when a Soul Spliced character gets hit with Energy Drain?

Because if Xykon actually takes this seriously, isn't that the spell he's likely to bust out?

From what I can gather about the spell, as long as you can hit with a ranged touch attack, there's no save. And the ABD seemed to have no trouble hitting V; it was just that V made his saves easily.

[MickJay]

I can see a lot of things happening, really:

- V loses one or both of remaining splices too early to accomplish much/is faced by Xykon aided by Haerta (why not? :smalltongue:) and has to flee/dies/gets controlled by Haerta's soul (why not? :smalltongue: )/gets captured/etc. Familicide may be cast on him, if Haerta gets involved.

- V manages to defeat Xykon but gets overwhelmed by Redcloak's "not real" magic (this would be quite fitting, in fact), then he might get recruited to take Xykon's place

- V loses another spliced soul as result of complications with teleport spell and has to retreat in shame, or more likely, fights, which results in one of the above

- variations of any of the above.

In the end, even if V wins, it won't actually help the Order in the long run - victory, if it happens, will be either short lived, incomplete, or illusory.

[Volkov]

1, 2, 3, 4, I declare a forum war!

...Between the people saying "Vaarsuvius will kill Xykon in 1 round, tops" and the people saying "Xykon will kill Vaarsuvius in 1 round, tops." i.e., put your V vs Xykon arguments here, so the main forum won't be cluttered up with fifteen different threads on the same topic.

I honestly don't know what will happen. It could go either way.

The instant V shows up a 100,000 ton anvil falls on him, and ends his role in the comic.

[Volkov]

Not a bit. She yawns, asks "Finished yet?" Then casts Epic teleport minions, getting rid of all but Xykon. A quickened Destroy Lich spell later, V is wondering whether to play with the Rift or just go back to the party.


The instant V shows up a 100,000 ton anvil falls on him, and ends his role in the comic.

Seriously, I want V dead and gone, I'm tired of seeing him. I'm sick of his continued existence, He has passed the moral event horizon for me and I no longer feel anything for him.

[Chirios]

Why would the levels stack? What we've seen so far suggests that when V casts one of the soul splice's spells, it's in effect the soul casting the spell himself (which is why I granted that it may be at the DC the soul would normally cast).

And since we don't know what level Xykon is, we don't know that the spliced souls are much (if any) higher level than he is. We do know that Xykon is a lich. We do know that he's an epic level caster. We do know that V himself is only 14th-15th level. We know that the souls are each epic level.

Given how little we know, I'd think that the fact that Xykon is a lich is one of the more significant facts, as it improves his spellcasting, hit points, and gives him a host of immunities.

The levels stack

Evil Purple Being: 3rd you won't get any EXP
Evil Yellow Being: Well, you could, technically, but your effective level will be so high that it's pretty unlikely.

^ comic 634.

[Animefunkmaster]

Well Xykon was killed by Roy, originally. I would say V is a lot stronger/smarter in hir current condition and should be able to defeat Xykon no problem (maybe not round 1, but in a few rounds, sure). However, there is a problem regarding finding Xykon, the Cloister Effect, the Phylactery, and the Fiends plan that could throw a wrench in V's effort.

Otherwise, THANK GOD V IS DOING THIS! I am sure most of you wanted to see this, I did. I am so glad that V is facing Xykon while she still has some soul mojo.

Also, how long did the fiends say an average caster can hold on to the effect? I didn't think it was anywhere close to 19 minutes.

[Ubergeek]

I, for one, always understood Celia's "unless they were using epic magic, too" as referring to Cloister being reasonably dispellable only by Epic Spells (and nothing short of Disjunction would work on a decent level Cloister, considering the limited nature of the Dispel Magic line).

Otherwise, with Cloister not protecting against Epic Magic at all, would make it a practically useless spell, and not "THE most powerful abjuration EVER".

Epic evil casters have had to be common enough in OoTS-verse, what with the three evil souls and with Dorukan actually falling to a caster who was almost epic himself. Such a gap in Cloister would have been a much grander hole than not protecting against summoning spells (on which Roy immediately commented).

And cost-wise, a Ward against all spells up to 9th level costs 174 DC at the base. To include Epic spells, which count as 10th level spells for such purposes, would increase the cost to 194, i.e. by about 13% - a negligible increase in cost vs. an immense increase in usefulness.

But, in OoTS such things are to be expected. Like I said, nothing more than wishful thinking on my part.


The general idea I received from reading the Epic Level Handbook was as follows:

1) Epic Magic trumps nonepic magic.
2) In the event that two epic magics conflict (read the discription for epic antimagic field,) both casters make a caster level check to see who comes up on top.

In otherwords, cloister would try to stop V's teleporting, but would probably fail. Celia's line about epic magic piercing it was referring to this rule, not saying that any epic magic could pierce cloister.

As for who would win the battle, my money's on Varsuvius. It's still possible that she could suffer a loss as a result of it, though.

My evidence is simply that Xykon never really seemed to me to be a good final villian. Because Xykon, is the persistant type, however, the only thing that would stop him from attempting to be the major villian is death. Xykon must be destroyed.

Why is Xykon a bad villian? Let's consider the properties big villians should have:

1) The big villian must have a motive for their actions. Preferably one beyond "I'm bored."

2) The big villian must have a master plan. While Xykon does have an endgame in mind, he's more of the "Let's destroy stuff and see what happens" model.

3) Optional: The villian must seem at least a little bit human. He can be a crazed lunatic, but he needs to have a reason for being a crazed lunatic. We need to be able to look into his past and understand him.

Xykon doesn't really fit the above requirements. Who does? Looking through the archives there are only two characters that could potentially fit the profile: Redcloak and Miko. (Also, Varsuvius kinda fits, kinda an 8-bit theater thing.)

The only problem is that Miko is dead, and even if she did come back, I can't imagine her as a major villian. That really leaves redcloak. But redcloak is too human. We've seen what he's trying to do, and if you've read Start of Darkness, you begin to understand him a little too much. It would be hard to kill him, really.

So, in the end, Varsuvius and Redcloak are both quasi-suitable choices to take Xykon's place. So what will happen? I don't know. But one thing is certain. Xykon must die!

[Da'Shain]

Why is Xykon a bad villian? Let's consider the properties big villians should have:

1) The big villian must have a motive for their actions. Preferably one beyond "I'm bored."

2) The big villian must have a master plan. While Xykon does have an endgame in mind, he's more of the "Let's destroy stuff and see what happens" model.

3) Optional: The villian must seem at least a little bit human. He can be a crazed lunatic, but he needs to have a reason for being a crazed lunatic. We need to be able to look into his past and understand him.Er ... I can understand if it's your opinion that Xykon doesn't make a good final villain, but referring to these "properties" of yours makes it seem like you think that it's a given others agree.

Personally, Xykon's motivation is the scariest thing about him, IMO (even if it's a little more complicated than simply "I'm bored"), and makes him a great overarching villain, because he's Evil with that capital E. He's suffers no delusions about himself, and takes delight in shattering those of others, even moreso than in simple mayhem. His overarching plan is world domination through manipulation of a god-slaying entity; even if it's co-opted from Redcloak, I fail to see how that isn't enough of a plan. His personality is such that he doesn't have a "master" plan, simply because he isn't really a Xanatos Gambler. He's ridiculously powerful and good at improvisation, which means that he doesn't need a master plan; he's badass enough that he can simply power or trick his way through to his goal. This makes him awesome because that's usually the province of heroes or PCs.

As for needing a reason: he has one. He's a Bad Guy. He embraces it, revels in it, and has suitable ambitions for someone like himself. Some people are just bad. Not everyone needs a reason to become so; some people torture housepets in their youth and then only move farther down the path to evil as they age.

Xykon's going to die at some point, sure, and someone else might even take his place ... but it'll be because he's the Evil Overlord and has to be defeated, not because he's not a suitable character.

[shadzar]

I asked you a question. You reply with another question (but in bold font!). Look, answer mine and I'll happily answer yours. I just want to know if you think Xykon is anywhere near lvl 65, and if not exactly where you think he is, and whether that stacks up with what we've seen him do in the comics thus far.

Then we are at an impasse. I don't play 3rd edition, so cannot even begin to figure out what levels the spells they are flinging around even with the SRD. And you stated you don't play D&D at all. So how could we come to terms with what level anyone is, when we both don't know?

I know level 20 was non-epic in 3rd. 2.5 gave level 21 to epic I thihnk, so we can assume the same for 3.x.

So the 3 souls spliced were were minimum level 21 each.

ThiS doesn't mean the resulting V was level (21*3)+V.

To be fair someone would have to figure up V as a wizard party. 3 epic arcane users, and V.

Then find the CR, ECL, whatever the heck 3.x uses for figuring monsters out, and see if a Lich could fit in that (is it called a template in 3rd?).

Only then could we guess what Xykon is. I am not even talking about levels really as the abstract concept that V is weaker without Haera, and therefore, may no longer be able to "dwarf mortal arcane spellcaster ever alive".

That is ALL I have been saying.

In simpler terms for some that may wish it that way:

Haera gone so V weaker.

:smallannoyed:


I think Xykon will kill V in comic 666. Unfortunately.

No that is just when the Baatezu will be allowed to come out from under the umbrella.

[fractal]

Here are my thoughts:

Xykon can't be permanently destroyed - he's our main villain (and, as others have noted, he has to make it to Girard's Gate.

Vaarsuvius won't lose to Xykon magically. After all, Xykon uses Arcane power too. If she did lose that way, then her Arcane Power was less than Xykon's, and thus not Ultimate. That would just suggest that Vaarsuvius simply needed more power to be like Xykon, but better.

That leaves Vaarsuvius failing to destroy Xykon due to one of the other 3 D&D specialties: trickery, divine power, or sheer physical force. I don't know which it will be, but I'd bet against physical force (which only the MitD is capable of providing on the necessary level).

Having already left could count as a type of trickery, I guess, especially if Vaarsuvius doesn't have any Epic scrying spells. However, that's still a form of inferior Arcane Power, so it doesn't seem very likely either.

On a related note, why has Roy been spying on his friends all this time, rather than the villains? Snooping on his friends won't learn anything the party as a whole doesn't already know. Spying on Xykon, on the other hand...

[Undead Prince]

The general idea I received from reading the Epic Level Handbook was as follows:

1) Epic Magic trumps nonepic magic.

Could you actually use quotes? Because in ELH, as well as the SRD, it is clearly stated: "Despite their power, epic spells still follow the basic rules for casting spells, except as specifically noted otherwise." (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spellsIntro.htm#whatAreEpicSpells) Same is true for dispelling: The game mechanics do not change, and epic spells do not occupy any privileged position allowing them to resist being dispelled other than their presumably high caster level." (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spellsIntro.htm#dispellingEpicSpellsAndAntimagicFi eld)


2) In the event that two epic magics conflict (read the discription for epic antimagic field,)

Could you quote the description of this "epic antimagic field"?


both casters make a caster level check to see who comes up on top.

The same is true with Epic vs. Mundane, when dispelling. Without dispelling, or suppressing, or negating, how can one spell render another inefficient?


In otherwords, cloister would try to stop V's teleporting, but would probably fail. Celia's line about epic magic piercing it was referring to this rule, not saying that any epic magic could pierce cloister.


I would like to see this rule quoted.


As for who would win the battle, my money's on Varsuvius. It's still possible that she could suffer a loss as a result of it, though.

No, really. V destroys Xykon, then what? Game over? Without ever anything to do for the rest of the order? Wide-spread groans of frustration from the audience.

Unless the author introduces new main villains even more devious and powerful than Xykon, like the fiends... but he won't, not at this point, not without a climactic stand-off between the Order and Team Evil.

(although he just might... <= hopefulness for wicked twists!)


My evidence is simply that Xykon never really seemed to me to be a good final villian.

He's a good final villain for this storyarc. The fiends are a "looming danger", but they never overshadow X.


Because Xykon, is the persistant type, however, the only thing that would stop him from attempting to be the major villian is death.

Not even that, because, you know, he's already dead.

Joker: You are a vicious bastard, Rotelli... heh heh... I'm glad you're dead! <laughs>

Yeah, yeah, couldn't resist.



Xykon must be destroyed.

Ceterum censeo Xykon esse delendam!


Why is Xykon a bad villian? Let's consider the properties big villians should have:

1) The big villian must have a motive for their actions. Preferably one beyond "I'm bored."

I assume you didn't read Xykon's speech about "bona-fide Evil" "with a capital E" in SoD.


2) The big villian must have a master plan. While Xykon does have an endgame in mind, he's more of the "Let's destroy stuff and see what happens" model.

He wants to rule the world. And actually has the potential means to do just that. I doubt there's a better evil master plan in the entire OoTS (except probably for the Fiends' assault on the Heavens).


3) Optional: The villian must seem at least a little bit human. He can be a crazed lunatic, but he needs to have a reason for being a crazed lunatic. We need to be able to look into his past and understand him.

Again, SoD.

And why should the villain seem human? Some of the best villains, both in history and in literature, were inhuman or entirely non-human.


Xykon doesn't really fit the above requirements. Who does?

Aw, come on. He has the plan, the background, and he's very "human" - his sense of humor is the best in the comic, that's my opinion.


Looking through the archives there are only two characters that could potentially fit the profile: Redcloak and Miko.

Both are horribly stuck up, neither good nor evil, and with no sense of humor. Compared to Xykon, they suck on a number of levels.


(Also, Varsuvius kinda fits, kinda an 8-bit theater thing.)

Would V be the Red Mage, or the Black Mage? Forget it though, he doesn't have the brains and the guts to be either.


The only problem is that Miko is dead, and even if she did come back, I can't imagine her as a major villian.

Well, she could screw up the Universe by destroying the Gates, while under firm belief that it is what the Gods of Light (or Darkness) want her to do.


That really leaves redcloak. But redcloak is too human. We've seen what he's trying to do, and if you've read Start of Darkness, you begin to understand him a little too much. It would be hard to kill him, really.

No, not really. He's still a lawful evil priest of an evil deity, on his way to summon and command a world-eating monstrosity. Even a stuck-up paladin would have no qualms killing him.


So, in the end, Varsuvius and Redcloak are both quasi-suitable choices to take Xykon's place.

At this point, they both suck too much to be BBEG. In my mind's eye, the real alternatives to Xykon are the Fiends and maybe Haera.


So what will happen? I don't know. But one thing is certain. Xykon must die!

But he already did. For YOUR sins.

[mistformsquirrl]

Personal thought:

V will lose, but not because he/she isn't powerful enough. Rather, the souls attatched to V will find a chance to escape during the battle.

Xykon will not be a pushover - in fact even if I weren't certain that the souls are going to jump ship, it'd still be a titanic fight. The problem is that the strain on V during such an engagement, even if he/she is winning, will likely be monumental.

We've already seen that if your will is shaken the souls can get loose; and during a battle of that magnitude, with V's current mental/emtional state, I cannot imagine hir remaining truly levelheaded.

Of course if the souls do escape, that leave's V in one hell of a bad predicament...

That said, Rich has been known to surprise in unexpected ways - maybe V kills Xykon but forgets the phylacetry (or can't find it). Or is consumed with evil power and replaced Xykon after destroying him.

*shrug*

It'll be fun to watch no matter what I think <^_^>

[Innis Cabal]

I think V is probably more powerful than XyKon, but like Roy said, XyKon is clever. He'll think of some way to undermine V, and that will be her downfall. All that power has made V overconfident, so that he probably won't care about anything that XyKon can do to him, he'll just start blasting away, heedless of the danger.

Fixed that.


Now for my opinion, not going to destroy him, going to lose his power right before the killing blow

[hobbitkniver]

My guess would be that V would lose. Xykon is too important to be beaten now.

Speculation: V loses her splice during or before the fight. Possibly leading to his death or seperation form the party.

[sum1won]

Thought: There is a great big hole in the fabric of reality, not far from Xykon. Could be an ironic twist in which V gets Greenhilted by Xykon.

[Cracklord]

The general idea I received from reading the Epic Level Handbook was as follows:

1) Epic Magic trumps nonepic magic.
2) In the event that two epic magics conflict (read the discription for epic antimagic field,) both casters make a caster level check to see who comes up on top.

In otherwords, cloister would try to stop V's teleporting, but would probably fail. Celia's line about epic magic piercing it was referring to this rule, not saying that any epic magic could pierce cloister.

As for who would win the battle, my money's on Varsuvius. It's still possible that she could suffer a loss as a result of it, though.

My evidence is simply that Xykon never really seemed to me to be a good final villian. Because Xykon, is the persistant type, however, the only thing that would stop him from attempting to be the major villian is death. Xykon must be destroyed.

Why is Xykon a bad villian? Let's consider the properties big villians should have:

1) The big villian must have a motive for their actions. Preferably one beyond "I'm bored."

2) The big villian must have a master plan. While Xykon does have an endgame in mind, he's more of the "Let's destroy stuff and see what happens" model.

3) Optional: The villian must seem at least a little bit human. He can be a crazed lunatic, but he needs to have a reason for being a crazed lunatic. We need to be able to look into his past and understand him.

Xykon doesn't really fit the above requirements. Who does? Looking through the archives there are only two characters that could potentially fit the profile: Redcloak and Miko. (Also, Varsuvius kinda fits, kinda an 8-bit theater thing.)

The only problem is that Miko is dead, and even if she did come back, I can't imagine her as a major villian. That really leaves redcloak. But redcloak is too human. We've seen what he's trying to do, and if you've read Start of Darkness, you begin to understand him a little too much. It would be hard to kill him, really.

So, in the end, Varsuvius and Redcloak are both quasi-suitable choices to take Xykon's place. So what will happen? I don't know. But one thing is certain. Xykon must die!

Xykon is a great evil villain, because of this. Because he has no motivation, no human characteristics, nothing to give minor justification.
Redcloak is not a good main villain. He is a good person, just a little misguided. He is evil, but he has more then enough justification for his actions.
V lacks the vision to be a primary antagonist, and V's much toted "Complete Arcane Power" comes from other people. V can never be anything more then a minion, even if V does beat Xykon, simply because V without the soul splice is not a threat to the party. I'm sure V would make a great 19 minute 41 second antaqgonist.
The three fiends are unable to take action themselves, and are forced to act through regular people. Because they themselves can influence people, they make a good group for the antagonist to ally with, only to be betrayed by just before his victory.
Tsuiko is little league.

No, Xykon will ace V, then mock her, quoting himself:

"I ripped off my own living flesh so that I wouldn't have to admit weakness. You're strictly little league compared to that. That right there? That's the difference between bonafide true Evil with a capital "E" and your whiny "evil, but for a good cause," crap. One gets to be the butch, and one gets to be the bitch — Bitch."
At that, V will join Team Evil, with Redcloak being promoted to Starscream, The Monster in the Darkness retaining the position as dragon, Tsuiko finnaly making Lackey, and Vaarsuvius taking the enviable role of Butt-Monkey.

[Hippoboy]

1, 2, 3, 4, I declare a forum war!

...Between the people saying "Vaarsuvius will kill Xykon in 1 round, tops" and the people saying "Xykon will kill Vaarsuvius in 1 round, tops." i.e., put your V vs Xykon arguments here, so the main forum won't be cluttered up with fifteen different threads on the same topic.

I honestly don't know what will happen. It could go either way.
V will lose control of the splice and lose he/she has already lost 1 caster and the Last panel of 650 suggests he/she's on the verge of losing another.

[JT Jag]

My prediction: Vaarsuvius bursts in, and starts crushing Xykon fairly easily. Then Redcloak shows up and starts healing Xykon and pestering Vaar.

Vaar is about to change targets and swat Redcloak away like the gnat he is, but then he loses splice with the sorcerer.

He stubbornly fights on, but then realizes that he's fresh out of spell slots. And then it's Xykon's turn to take over the fight.

After going through a lot of self-influcted trauma from being incapable to do enough with the powers he has, he Epic Teleports back to the Order just in time to lose splice with Ganonron. He watches Roy get rezzed, and they do a Order of the Stick Reunited splash page while Xykon and his army does a splash page with them heading to the Gate.

[Linkavitch]

I agree with Shadzar. The Epic Teleport Vrs. the Epic Cloister might just shake V up enough that he'll lose Ganorron and will be left with Jephton. Still, even then, it'll be high level Sorcerer/Cleric combo vrs. High level Sorcerer/Wizard Combo.

[JeptCloak]

The levels stack

Evil Purple Being: 3rd you won't get any EXP
Evil Yellow Being: Well, you could, technically, but your effective level will be so high that it's pretty unlikely.

^ comic 634.

Well, this settles it then. Which means Xykon is toast.

Anyway, to briefly respond to stuff others have said:
1) I don't think the abstract notion of "V was stronger, but now minus Haerta is weak enough to lose" is helpful, because I explained why logic dictated V is still much stronger than him.
2) I don't accept that V's initial gesalt "dwarfs" Haerta's solo power under your logic. Having extra spells (which are much weaker than yours), while very useful, is not what I associate "dwarfing" someones power to be. Obviously we'll find out soon enough, but I don't at all think that's what is meant. In a fight of Haerta v.s V's + 3 splices, the fight would basically be equal, with the more skilled user winning. One of them will be dead long before they run out of spells, so their flexibility would be meaningless. Haerta would be the only caster who mattered if the hypothetical we discussed was true. I can't imagine V fully spliced will be busting out "Ganeron Epic Fireball lvl 25!" against Haerta lvl 40, they'll be using all Haerta's spells, and one will be dead before they run out unless I grossly misunderstand the number of slots epics get, and the # of HP etc they get.

I don't think the stuff Ganeron has done so far is really in Xykon's ballpark thus far either. I've yet to see Xykon do anything which would put him in the class of someone who can teleport whole fleets, or shapechange into what must be a 25 HD Dragon given the size of it. Xykon's spells have failed to kill Roy on multiple hits, even meteor swarm. Roy is what, lvl 14? How could Xykon be in the same ballpark as these guys when he is hitting Roy with finger of deaths and blasts and meteor swarms (with one or two lame buffs), and he is surviving?

It's bad writing if Xykon wins, and I'll be disappointed.

[Ridureyu]

Many times on this forum people have said, "Either what I predict/want happens, or it's b ad writing." Usually, the opposite happens, and they respond as if they knew it was coming and supported it.

[JeptCloak]

Many times on this forum people have said, "Either what I predict/want happens, or it's b ad writing." Usually, the opposite happens, and they respond as if they knew it was coming and supported it.

I have no problem with V losing under good writing. If he loses Ganoron, then has a long, drawn out epic fight with Xykon and has to retreat, then fine. I just find it completely implausible that Xykon can last more than 5 minutes under the current circumstances, and I think it's going to be difficult to sell a soul split by then. Bearing in mind too, that after the first few attacks, Xykon is going to be in huge trouble, so even then Jephton V should be enough to win.

[Zevox]

Well, this settles it then. Which means Xykon is toast.
How does that settle anything, exactly? Even assuming that logic is correct - which it isn't necessarily - what benefit does V gain from having the three souls' caster levels stack? All spells I'm aware of have a cap on how much damage they can do, and the most powerful non-epic ones all end at 20d6 or 25d6 (or 40d6 for Disintegrate, but it gets that powerful at 20th level anyway). Which means they're no more useful to a character with a caster level of 100 than to one with a caster level of 20 or 25, save in their ability to bypass spell resistance, which Xykon doesn't have anyway. Similarly, a higher caster level doesn't give V a higher save DC to her spells - that's entirely determined by the souls' individual ability scores, spell slots, and feats (spell focus/heighten spell/etc).

A high caster level may help for damage epic spells, but we have no clue what V may or may not have in that regard. She could just as easily not have any that deal direct damage at all. And for non-damaging ones such as save-or-dies, the caster level is just as useless as it is for non-epic spells, since it doesn't impact the save DC at all.

Zevox

[JeptCloak]

How does that settle anything, exactly? Even assuming that logic is correct - which it isn't necessarily - what benefit does V gain from having the three souls' caster levels stack? All spells I'm aware of have a cap on how much damage they can do, and the most powerful non-epic ones all end at 20d6 or 25d6 (or 40d6 for Disintegrate, but it gets that powerful at 20th level anyway). Which means they're no more useful to a character with a caster level of 100 than to one with a caster level of 20 or 25, save in their ability to bypass spell resistance, which Xykon doesn't have anyway. Similarly, a higher caster level doesn't give V a higher save DC to her spells - that's entirely determined by the souls' individual ability scores, spell slots, and feats (spell focus/heighten spell/etc).

A high caster level may help for damage epic spells, but we have no clue what V may or may not have in that regard. She could just as easily not have any that deal direct damage at all. And for non-damaging ones such as save-or-dies, the caster level is just as useless as it is for non-epic spells, since it doesn't impact the save DC at all.

Zevox

So under D&D rules it is remotely likely that V, with a caster level of over 60, will lose to Xykon? I'm not talking "can you compute scenarios where V loses", I means remotely likely. Bear in mind, evidence points to Xykon being around lvl 21-22... the guy can't even kill Roy with repeated hits of powerful spells...

[hungerer]

Occasional reader, first time poster.

Well, I think the V vs X fight, V wins as it stands. And Redcloak is floating vapor to come to it. But I think there is a revelation coming that will happily match V's rise to power.

I think its time the umbrella came off.

[A Guy]

Xykon will so utterly wipe the floor with Vaarsuvius (http://www.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CurbStompBattle), the souls he's bounded would be knocked to the other side of the universe. Seriously, you don't think that The Giant would let Xykon die that easily, do you? And it'd be a great way to show that the soul splice does not make you all powerful.

[Crisis21]

Xykon will so utterly wipe the floor with Vaarsuvius (http://www.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CurbStompBattle), the souls he's bounded would be knocked to the other side of the universe. Seriously, you don't think that The Giant would let Xykon die that easily, do you? And it'd be a great way to show that the soul splice does not make you all powerful.

I am personally interested in how Xykon will kick V's behind all over creation to be honest.

[Revenant]

So under D&D rules it is remotely likely that V, with a caster level of over 60, will lose to Xykon? I'm not talking "can you compute scenarios where V loses", I means remotely likely. Bear in mind, evidence points to Xykon being around lvl 21-22... the guy can't even kill Roy with repeated hits of powerful spells...
V very likely has effectively 55+ levels in casting classes at this point, yes, but I see nothing indicating that V would have a caster level (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/castingSpells.htm#casterLevel) that high, nor would it be particularly advantageous, as Zevox noted.

The standard method in DnD is for spells from different casting sources to have independent caster levels, and soul splices definitely qualify there. All we know for sure is that spells from both Ganonron (Conjurer) and Jephton (Sorcerer) will have caster levels of 21+.

[Zevox]

So under D&D rules it is remotely likely that V, with a caster level of over 60, will lose to Xykon? I'm not talking "can you compute scenarios where V loses", I means remotely likely.
First off, we do not know what V's caster level is, even if the souls' levels stack, so please don't pull random numbers out like that and pretend they're factual. Second, as I explained, a caster level of 60 or higher means absolutely nothing more than a caster level of 20 or 25 to any non-epic spells in D&D rules, except for the ability to overcome Spell Resistance, which Xykon doesn't have anyway.

Anyway, under strict D&D rules, the answer, as I pointed out in the first or second post of this thread, is simply "we don't know." The big question in that regard is: "does the Soul Splice increase V's hit points and saves at all?" If the answer is "no," then it is not only "remotely likely" that V will lose, it is highly likely. A 14th-level Wizard's hit points and saves are not difficult for an epic caster to overcome, even if she's warded with such powerful defenses as Protection from Spells and Mind Blank.

But we also don't know to what extent V's hp and saves would be increased by the splice, leaving it up in the air even if she gets a benefit to those. And very importantly, we don't know what spells Ganoron and Jephton have access to anyway, nor how level 10+ spell slots they have access to, nor how many or what epic spells they have access to (and we similarly don't know what epic abilities Xykon has, save that he knows how to cast Cloister). All this makes any predictions of the fight downright impossible to make from a rules perspective.


the guy can't even kill Roy with repeated hits of powerful spells...
What repeated hits of what powerful spells? Xykon and Roy have "fought" twice. Once in the Dungeon of Dorukon, once at Azure City. In the first, Xykon cast exactly one spell at Roy, and that was to Shatter his sword, not harm Roy. In the second, Xykon cast one spell at Roy, Meteor Swarm, which at most could do 32d6 damage to him, assuming all four meteors were thrown at Roy directly (which they probably weren't, since the image seems to show them as thrown at the Dragon instead, which makes sense given Xykon was trying to destroy it, not kill Roy outright, which means Roy himself took only 24d6, less if he happened to make one or more of his saves). No matter how that plays out, its perfectly reasonable for a 13th-level Fighter with a good constitution score to survive the attack. Xykon would need to target Roy directly, and roll high damage, and have Roy fail all four saves to kill him outright with one shot of that spell.

Zevox

[JeptCloak]

V very likely has effectively 55+ levels in casting classes at this point, yes, but I see nothing indicating that V would have a caster level (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/castingSpells.htm#casterLevel) that high, nor would it be particularly advantageous, as Zevox noted.

The standard method in DnD is for spells from different casting sources to have independent caster levels, and soul splices definitely qualify there. All we know for sure is that spells from both Ganonron (Conjurer) and Jephton (Sorcerer) will have caster levels of 21+.

Except as I've highlighted, logic dictates at least one of Ganeron or Jephton is much stronger than 21. That Dragon shapechange also strongly hints in that direction... it must have been 25 HD minimum, and likely much higher based on the size and ability to be unharmed from ripping through ABDs body, then chewing and eating parts of it with no difficulty. I don't know much about Purple Dragons, but glancing at the online stats I'd think high 30s easily in terms of lvls/HD.

[Llama231]

Hmmm...

Let's see who's winning...

It appears that V is...

I agree...


O.K., now its time to side for Xykon.
I say that the MitD would whup V's but instantly cus the MitD iz teh pwnzorz.

No really, if Xykon somehow managed to point it at V, there would be an epic battle in which the MitD's species and V's gender combat each other until the Earth is destroyed, and then the Snarl come to the fight and totals V, but not the MitD because it is too awesome, the the MitD, O-Chul and Thog go get ice cream. Yes.

...Yeah.


In all seriousness, Xykon need to win in order to continue the plot unless V takes his place as the arcane spellcaster (which V can).

[JeptCloak]

Xykon is shown hitting Roy with a finger of death, and later an un-named spell to the face. So even assuming those were the only 2 he hit him with prior to the meteor swarm, which assumes zero attacks off panel, Roy should have been dead if Xykon is at the sort of level people here are speculating about. Plus, look at the actual comic:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0442.html
We see 4 spheres go right into Roy's body, with his legs on one side of the balls, his head on the other. I don't see how some missed, it doesn't come off that way at all. Sure, they seem to take out the Dragon too, but the primary target is Roy.

As for all the technical stuff on Vs chances, I guess my question as a non-D&D player is "how does that theory square with Vs durability to date?"

The guy has survived being eaten by an ABD which breathes acid, and laughs off fingers of death. What possible reason do we have to assume V has normal durability? Again, this is a serious question, because I don't play this game. But it seems pretty wierd. Likewise, I think some calculations were done to indicate that the disjunction spell used indicates a caster lvl of 75 at least back when he had Haerta stacked on (if they stack).

[Godskook]

The levels stack

Evil Purple Being: 3rd you won't get any EXP
Evil Yellow Being: Well, you could, technically, but your effective level will be so high that it's pretty unlikely.

^ comic 634.

That doesn't mean that caster levels stack(which is what is being discussed), just that his effective character level probably does. It is within the bounds of the game to have a 100+ level caster who a)never took a class other than a full caster and b)can't cast 9th level spells due to insufficient caster level(or epic spells, by extension). The boost to ECL could be explicitly a LA, not affecting HD or caster level at all, and V would still get screwed on the xp.

Since we never see V cast a spell that indicates a caster level above what an individual could do of that group, its actually more reasonable to assume that V is being treated as having levels in 3(originally 4) different caster classes, giving him access to a lot of spell slots and other goodies, but without boosting his own caster level worth squat.

Also, take note that whenever an epic spell is cast, the relevant soul always acts as if their casting it, instead of V. In two of the three cases, they show up in-panel during the casting in casting positions. In the third case, he's off-panel, but its him, not V, who is 'handling' the turbulence. This is supported by what the sorcerer says to Roy: "Your friend is simply outsourcing all conjuration and sorcery needs for this project". Sure, he was lying to Roy, but the best lies are based in truth, and that sounds almost exactly like what is happening anyway(but leaving out the unsavory parts), so I think it is safe to assume he's painting the most accurate picture he can, at least about the outsourcing. That indicates that each is casting independently of the others, meaning that caster levels probably don't stack(but of course, they could).

[Zevox]

Xykon is shown hitting Roy with a finger of death, and later an un-named spell to the face. So even assuming those were the only 2 he hit him with prior to the meteor swarm, which assumes zero attacks off panel, Roy should have been dead if Xykon is at the sort of level people here are speculating about.
You are correct about Finger of Death, I had forgotten that. But Finger of Death does little damage on a save (which Roy must have made, else he'd be dead) - a mere 3d6+1/level, maximum +25. No matter how high level Xykon is, that's not going to bother a 13th-level Fighter much, and the difference in damage because of his caster level is only at most 4 points. And in any event, Meteor Swarm also does the same damage no matter what the caster's level is. Xykon could be level 100 and those two spells together could still be reasonably expected not to kill Roy. Because no matter how powerful Xykon is, those spells are always the same power level (or about the same power level, in the case of Finger of Death).

As for the unnamed spell which I now see in comic 434, its impossible to do any calculations with that without knowing what it is.


As for all the technical stuff on Vs chances, I guess my question as a non-D&D player is "how does that theory square with Vs durability to date?"

The guy has survived being eaten by an ABD which breathes acid, and laughs off fingers of death. What possible reason do we have to assume V has normal durability? Again, this is a serious question, because I don't play this game. But it seems pretty wierd. Likewise, I think some calculations were done to indicate that the disjunction spell used indicates a caster lvl of 75 at least back when he had Haerta stacked on (if they stack).
Finger of Death she was able to resist largely because of one of her wards, Protection from Spells. That grants her a +8 bonus to her saves, and since an Ancient Black Dragon has a fairly poor charisma score by caster standards (16, though this one's must have been 17 or higher to cast Finger of Death to start with), the save DC on the Finger spell likely wasn't particularly high (could be as low as 20, if the Dragon's charisma was only 17). And it isn't a particularly bad spell to be hit with - she either fails the save and dies, and obviously that didn't happen, or makes the save and takes the paltry damage I mentioned in the above analysis of Xykon. Thing about that is, you have to remember that odds are strong that the ABD was nowhere near as powerful of a spellcaster as Xykon. The mightiest spell we ever saw her cast was Finger of Death itself, a 7th-level spell. Which only pegs her at a caster level of 14+, equal to V without the splice.

And sadly, by D&D rules, being eaten by the Dragon does nothing to V in terms of damage, save perhaps to have her take bite damage, which would be mitigated by her Stoneskin ward (-10 to the damage from the bite). A few creatures have rules for damaging foes with an ability called Swallow Whole, but the damage from that tends to be mild. A Tyrannosaurus Rex, for instance, deals 2d8+8 bludgeoning and 8 acid damage to swallowed creatures per round. Enough to hurt V, but not enough to KO or kill her for at least a few rounds, assuming she gains no benefit to hp from the splice - and she only spent one round inside the Dragon (plus we should also note she cast a spell which made her immune to acid damage when warding herself during the Time Stop, so even if she was taking damage for being swallowed, she wasn't taking any of the potential acid damage, and all physical damage was reduced by 10 from Stoneskin). And in any event, the Dragon didn't have that ability anyway, so strictly by the rules, V wouldn't be taking such damage at all.

As for that last, impossible. Disjunction has a 1% chance per caster level to destroy an Antimagic Field. All we know is that V's attempt succeeded. That tells us nothing about the odds of her succeeding.

And you seem hung up on the matter of her caster level, so perhaps I should spell out exactly what benefits those give a caster in D&D for you, since they're not nearly as important past level 20 as you seem to think. Caster level determines:
- The number of non-epic spell slots a caster has access to. Past level 20, this never rises based on caster level again.*
- The damage that most damage-dealing spells do, usually 1d6 per caster level, always with a cap of some sort. The strongest non-epic spells cap out at 20d6 or 25d6, except disintegrate, which does 2d6 per level to a maximum of 40d6 at level 20 (and much less on a successful save). Past caster level 20 or 25, this doesn't rise again, except with epic spells, and we know nothing about what epic spells V has access to other than Ganoron's epic teleport.
- The duration of most spells. Generally has no cap, but pretty pointless for the purposes of our discussion, except for those few spells with only a 1 round per level duration.
- A few other miscellaneous effects of some spells, such as the HD of the form a caster can take with a Polymorph or Shapechange spell. As you've already noticed.
- The ability of spells to overcome Spell Resistance. This is determined by rolling 1d20, adding the caster's caster level (and a few possible bonuses, such as from the Spell Penetration feat, which grants +2 to this), and comparing to the creature's Spell Resistance number (as an example, the ABD V fought has a Spell Resistance of 25, which is quite high for a non-epic monster). By level 20, this is rarely an issue for most casters. And Xykon does not have Spell Resistance anyway.
- Caster level does NOT determine the save DC of most spells (one exception I know of is Dismissal, which has you subtract the target's HD then add your caster level to determine the actual save DC, but that doesn't work on Xykon anyway, since he is not an Outsider). That is determined by the spell's level, the caster's ability score modifier, and any miscellaneous bonuses from feats.

That's it. I hope you can see now that V's caster level here simply doesn't matter beyond a certain point. And its not beyond the realm of possibility that both Jephton and Ganoron are beyond that point on their own even if their caster levels don't stack.

*Epic spell slots are determined by the character's ranks in Knowledge (Arcana) - they get 1 per 10 ranks - and spell slots beyond level 9 are determined by how many times the character takes the feat Improved Spell Capacity plus if/how many bonus spells they get for a high ability score. None of which has anything to do with their caster level, save that they require the character to have a minimum CL of 21 to take the necessary feats.

Zevox

[JeptCloak]

Yeh, I follow what you're saying. Alot of cheap attack spells cap at lvl 20-25 in terms of damage. Fine. But some spells don't, and there are clearly other ways to beat someone where having 60+ lvls will be tremendously useful. I mean, just what is Xykon's response to V turning into a dragon with hit dice of 50 (if this is possible, as I was told earlier)? Plus I'm fairly sure V retains all spellcasting powers in dragon form. Every non-capped spell will massively favour V. Plus based on what we've seen , it seems unlikely Xykon is more than about lvl 21.

And my objection is not based on scenarios and calculations so much as the way they've been written to this point. Nothing about Xykon's power at this point hints at the sort of power he'd need to win this fight. I agree with the plot driven result, I just fear it's going to suck.

Can someone else who knows calculations for this game help. Is it really likely that Xykon can hit V with finger of death, some random spell (just pick a randomly weak one) and a direct hit for meteor swarm, and Roy lives?

[Godskook]

Xykon is shown hitting Roy with a finger of death, and later an un-named spell to the face. So even assuming those were the only 2 he hit him with prior to the meteor swarm, which assumes zero attacks off panel, Roy should have been dead if Xykon is at the sort of level people here are speculating about. Plus, look at the actual comic:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0442.html
We see 4 spheres go right into Roy's body, with his legs on one side of the balls, his head on the other. I don't see how some missed, it doesn't come off that way at all. Sure, they seem to take out the Dragon too, but the primary target is Roy.

Finger of death only did 3d6 + 25 damage(average: 35, min: 28)

Meteor Swarm did 32d6(average: 112, min: 32)

Roy has 13d10 + 3*13 HP(average: 110 HP, max: 169 HP)

Should be dead, no. Odd that he took that much damage without dying, yes. Problem is, Xykon's level means the difference between 21 and 25 bonus damage in the finger of death, so his level really isn't changing nothing(Meteor Swarm doesn't scale). And of course, if Roy had any kind of +con item on, his chances of surviving that far go up significantly(An amulet of health +4 would give him 26 bonus HP), let alone any buffs we don't know about.(Not to mention that I'm using minimal level and con scores according to the geekery thread, he could have more HD and a higher con than what I use here).

The other thing is, Xykon wasn't trying to kill Roy until the swarm. Finger of Death targets fort, and a fighter is going to have one of the better fort saves out there. Xykon using that on a fighter is akin to slapping him. Proves a point but doesn't really do anything.

[Alias]

Being a lich improves Xykon's hit dice size at the cost of his con score. He can shapechange or polymorph into another form, but that would rob him of undead traits. Since shapechange and polymorph do not allow one to assume a templated creature's form, the new creature cannot be a lich and therefore loses all lich features and traits. Xykon would be no better off than V if he shapechanges.

Let's look at how being a lich affects Xykon. He has d12 hit dice, but he has no con score. This means 12+(level-1)*6.5 hp expected, or 142 hp at level 21. Compare this with a venerable human sorcerer of level 21 with 14 con to start. He would be expected to have at least 8+4 (inherent)-6 (age)+6 (amulet of health +6)=18 con, or 8+20*6.5=138 hp. A L21 lich sorcerer who was human before the change would have a mere 6 base fortitude save with nothing from a con modifier. The same sorcerer can shapechange into a balor (30 con) for 6+10 fortitude save, and they would have the same modifiers otherwise. Trading 10 fort save for 1 will save and 4 hp is a horrible idea when your opponent likes disintegrate and can fire off a disintegrate+quickened disintegrate in one round (80d6 damage, average 280).

Undead modify fort saves with Charisma. I know I've read that in the core - monster manual I believe. So you are underestimating his fort save by *a bit*

[Dagren]

Undead modify fort saves with Charisma. I know I've read that in the core - monster manual I believe. So you are underestimating his fort save by *a bit*The SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#undeadType) says that's Concentration checks, not Fort saves. They are immune to fort saves unless they work on objects... which disintegrate does.

[shadzar]

Since V knew Haera had Familicide, and conjurer guy had Epic Teleport, does it may mean we might be missing something in that V knows all the things the others have access to?

So V knew what Haera had when she departed the splice, and knows what the other two are capable of casting, and I know V often gets the power of magic wrong, but this added knowledge may lend more to what V can do to Xykon.

I mean V really thinks it can be done, and the loss of Haera isn't even a factor.

Or just normal V and mental state surrounding how pathetically useless V's magic is most of the time?

Maybe it would be something as simple that V can now do that would render Xykon unable to reconstitute a physical form, by binding him so that nobody around him can help. So Redcloak becomes the Twiki to Xykon's Dr. Theopolis.

I recall something around the WotC site about Epic Binder, and have no idea what that means, but binding Xykon's soul to prevent him from returning to or from the phylactery seems like something not too impossible. Therefore Xykon is defeated, but not fully destroyed and the oath Roy is under is not fulfilled.

Maybe even Redcloak would not want to be Twiki, and makes MitD take that position so Xykon has to remain in the darkness now that V has messed him up because he wouldn't let MitD out of it yet.

This would just make for another funny cross-over from games/tv and such, so is the reason I threw it out there.

[JeptCloak]

I also just realised on reading these rules, isn't Xykon not able to Time Stop? He's already shown his 3 lvl 9 spells (without me even having to think very hard)... he can't have learnt any more, can he? Or does his epic nature give extra spells he can learn? Because he's already used meteor swarm, energy drain and Soul Bind...

Additional note here... looking at this table, it seems to me a mere lvl 21 wouldn't get more than 1 Epic Spell per day. V has used Epic Teleport twice quite casually, and seems to think he'll be "right back" using it again. You'd have to think Ganeron would have to be at least 3 lvls above 21, at a bare minimum... not to mention the evidence in the dragon shapechange...

[shadzar]

I also just realised on reading these rules, isn't Xykon not able to Time Stop?

As much fun as it is to debate what may or may not happen, if I may borrow a line from Shinichi Kudo, one truth prevails.

The rules, spells, power, abilities, etc of all characters and events in the comic move by the power of plot. Xykon could cast Power Phrase: Kill Androgynous Elf if such is needed to be done.

[Zevox]

Yeh, I follow what you're saying. Alot of cheap attack spells cap at lvl 20-25 in terms of damage. Fine. But some spells don't, and there are clearly other ways to beat someone where having 60+ lvls will be tremendously useful.
No non-epic spells lack such a cap, unless they're from some splatbook I've never read. Certainly no core non-epic spells do, and that's generally what the Giant sticks to with the OotS. And no, there are not other ways that having a caster level of 60+ is helpful. I listed all of them (save one, now that I think of it: higher caster level means her spells are harder to dispel. But then, its really tough to dispel an epic-level caster's spells with anything less than Disjunction anyway).


I mean, just what is Xykon's response to V turning into a dragon with hit dice of 50 (if this is possible, as I was told earlier)?
First off, not possible - there is a cap on those, too, now that I check the spells. Polymorph caps at 15, Shapechange at 25.

Plus even if it were possible, his response would be the same as if she turned into any other Gargantuan-size Dragon. He'd orobably hit her with something requiring a reflex save, since her dexterity is now guaranteed to be merely 10, and he has plenty of those in his arsenal. Or something like Polar Ray, if he has it, which is quite potent, has no save, and requires only a touch attack, which is always easy on a low-dexterity foe, and even more so on one that size. Note that shape-shifting does not increase V's hit points in any way, not even for her new constitution modifier. She gains a lot - AC, strength, even the breath weapon when using Shapechange - but for the most part is just now a good meleer. Xykon doesn't care about her AC, the constitution modifier only matters for her fortitude save, and her melee prowess can be dealt with. He even has a built in DR 15/bludgeoning and magic to help against that.


Plus I'm fairly sure V retains all spellcasting powers in dragon form.
Ironically, she would with the more basic Polymorph spell, but will not with Shapechange. In exchange for gaining more of her new form's abilities, V loses all her supernatural abilities when shape-shifted, amongst which, I'm fairly certain, are her spellcasting powers.


Every non-capped spell will massively favour V.
If you can point to any in the SRD, I'd love to know about them. Because as far as I know, they don't exist. (And even if they do, again, V has to actually have them prepared, or have Jephton know them, to cast them.)


Plus based on what we've seen , it seems unlikely Xykon is more than about lvl 21.
During the Battle of Azure City, he was either 21 or 22 - any higher and Durkon couldn't have dispelled his Greater Invisibility when they first engaged him. But he may also have leveled up after that for all we know. In any event, it matters little, since yes, he's in the low 20s.


And my objection is not based on scenarios and calculations so much as the way they've been written to this point. Nothing about Xykon's power at this point hints at the sort of power he'd need to win this fight. I agree with the plot driven result, I just fear it's going to suck.
You're simply not understanding the power needed to win this fight, I fear. Xykon doesn't need to be some level 50 world-destroying superpower to be able to beat V. If V doesn't gain any hp or saves from the splice, all he needs to do is unload a couple of spells, and she goes down - Disintegrate, Chain Lightning, Meteor Swarm; anything that doesn't target her will saves, really. And even if she does, all that gives her is a fighting chance. Nothing more. Wizards really are just that squishy unless they have a huge constitution score. But Liches? Not so much - that d12 hit dice is a big improvement over the usual d4, and all those immunities and resistances go a long way too.


Can someone else who knows calculations for this game help. Is it really likely that Xykon can hit V with finger of death, some random spell (just pick a randomly weak one) and a direct hit for meteor swarm, and Roy lives?
*sigh* You're missing the point. Those spells' power are not reflective of Xykon's level or power, because their effects are basically static. Meteor Swarm's power is the same whether its Xykon, V, or some young mage who just hit level 17 casting it. Finger of Death's modifications for his level is a measly 1 point of damage per level. It doesn't matter who casts them - V could cast the same spells at Roy as soon as he's Resurrected, and he'd be taking practically the same damage from them. So why keep bringing it up as though it means something?


I also just realised on reading these rules, isn't Xykon not able to Time Stop? He's already shown his 3 lvl 9 spells (without me even having to think very hard)... he can't have learnt any more, can he? Or does his epic nature give extra spells he can learn? Because he's already used meteor swarm, energy drain and Soul Bind...
He could, in theory, take the epic feat Spell Knowledge to gain knowledge of two new spells per time he takes it. But in practice, it's unlikely he has done so. His level 21 feat had to be Epic Spellcasting since he could cast Cloister, and he won't get another feat until level 23. Unless he leveled up after the Battle of Azure City and chose that feat, then yes, he does not know Time Stop. Not that that matters all that much. Time Stop is useful, but since you can't harm your opponents while its active, not game-breaking useful.


Additional note here... looking at this table, it seems to me a mere lvl 21 wouldn't get more than 1 Epic Spell per day. V has used Epic Teleport twice quite casually, and seems to think he'll be "right back" using it again. You'd have to think Ganeron would have to be at least 3 lvls above 21, at a bare minimum... not to mention the evidence in the dragon shapechange...
...what table are you looking at? As I mentioned, epic casters gain 1 epic spell per 10 ranks in Knowledge (Arcana) (or Knowledge (Religion) for clerics, or Knowledge (Nature) for Druids). Any 21st-level character that takes the feat Epic Spellcasting can easily have two epic spell slots, assuming they have maxed out ranks in the appropriate knowledge skill. It would take a minimum level of 27 to have three, though. But V doesn't need an epic teleport to come back, she'd just have to fly out of the city and use a non-epic Greater Teleport.

Zevox

[Killer Angel]

...maybe Xykon is no more there, and Vaarsuvius will be so completely screwed that he will lose control on the Splice.
All of this could be only the dimostration of the foolishness of V., making pact with fiends.

[with an e]

No non-epic spells lack such a cap, unless they're from some splatbook I've never read. Certainly no core non-epic spells do, and that's generally what the Giant sticks to with the OotS. And no, there are not other ways that having a caster level of 60+ is helpful. I listed all of them (save one, now that I think of it: higher caster level means her spells are harder to dispel. But then, its really tough to dispel an epic-level caster's spells with anything less than Disjunction anyway).
There are quite a few ways in which a caster level beyond 30 provides significant benefits, even if we stay within SRD.

The weakest way is to use a spell that does x damage per round and has an uncapped duration dependent on caster level. For example, incendiary cloud (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/incendiaryCloud.htm) does (caster level*4)d6 damage.

The second way is to do uncapped damage with a single action in a single round. Use quickened mental pinnacle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/spells/mentalPinnacle.htm) to give the spellcaster 3*caster level point points and ability to manifest equal to caster level. Then, use mental thrust (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/mindThrust.htm) with augmentation to deal (caster level)d10 damage with a will save DC of 11+(caster level)/2+ability bonus.

The most powerful way, at least within a certain level range, is to use gate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gate.htm) to call and control stronger creatures. This does have the drawback of being limited by the availability of creatures, but those go well beyond 42 HD. There is a large difference between a 60 HD solar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/angel.htm#angelSolar) and a 140 HD elder titan (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/titanElder.htm). Notably, the latter is an epic spellcaster itself with caster level 29+ and 50+ will save.

[Aharon]

Concerning the Caster Level Stack:

Some people seem to have forgotten the fight againtst the ABD: Suvies first move was casting Disjunction. If the Caster Levels hadn't stacked, Suvie would have had a less than 50% chance of this working. Now while s/he is sometimes behaving stupid, I doubt she would risk that when the lives of her family - the reason s/he told herself s/he was taking the deal for - are at stake. Especially if one considers that there are other spells that deal with AMFs.

@With an e:
Incendiary cloud is capped at 4d6/round. The spell does an average 14 damage per round, which sucks against most opponents when you reach the capabilities to use it. There are a few spells that have noncapped damage, though - Maw of Chaos from the Spell Compendium, for instance.
Using mental pinnacle takes away your arcane power, and gives you some crappy powers. It would be an especially stupid move against Xykon, as Mind Thrust is mind-affecting, against which he is immune.

Gate is awesome, but we do not know if Suvie has the XP to spare - we know which level she is at, not how many XP she has, and you can't use XP if it would cost you a level. In fact, one of the ways Xykon might beat her is using a scroll of Gate to level the power a bit.

[lord_khaine]

You're simply not understanding the power needed to win this fight, I fear. Xykon doesn't need to be some level 50 world-destroying superpower to be able to beat V. If V doesn't gain any hp or saves from the splice, all he needs to do is unload a couple of spells, and she goes down - Disintegrate, Chain Lightning, Meteor Swarm; anything that doesn't target her will saves, really. And even if she does, all that gives her is a fighting chance. Nothing more. Wizards really are just that squishy unless they have a huge constitution score. But Liches? Not so much - that d12 hit dice is a big improvement over the usual d4, and all those immunities and resistances go a long way too.


well, i belive the Dragon fight showed that V must have gotten some HP out of the splice, he took a breath attack, a full attack, a finger of death and what was proberly a final bite attack without showing any damage.

even with stoneskin taking 10 points of each melee hit thats a lot of damage, enough to kill V presplice.
for V to not even show any damage from that do point towards a decent hp buff.

[Revenant]

Except as I've highlighted, logic dictates at least one of Ganeron or Jephton is much stronger than 21. That Dragon shapechange also strongly hints in that direction... it must have been 25 HD minimum, and likely much higher based on the size and ability to be unharmed from ripping through ABDs body, then chewing and eating parts of it with no difficulty. I don't know much about Purple Dragons, but glancing at the online stats I'd think high 30s easily in terms of lvls/HD.
That proves nothing. I said "All we know for sure…" (emphasis added) – I prefer to work with facts as much as possible, rather than leaping to conclusions and stating conjecture as certainty. However, now that dragons have come into the picture, let us see what we can work out from what we know about them.

Black dragons are one of the weaker types (second only to white dragons), and an ancient black dragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm#blackDragon) falls into the Huge size category. For comparison, a red dragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm#redDragon), one of the powerful types of dragon, reaches that size at the young adult stage, with only 19 HD. A mature adult red dragon would be the same size and 25 HD exactly.

Assuming that V is in fact shapechanging into a purple dragon, let's see what we can find out about them. They are definitely not one of the standard types – they were officially published for 3.5E in Dragon Compendium 1. Although I lack that book, I was able to find the errata (http://paizo.com/download/dragon/compendium/DragonCompendiumVolumeIErrata.pdf) for it, which tells me that their breath weapon deals force damage, that their hit dice progression is identical to that of a red dragon, and that ancient and older purple dragons have higher challenge ratings than a red dragon of equivalent age.

This tells me that purple dragons are a powerful dragon species – reds are the strongest of the core chromatics, and purples are indicated by their CR to be as strong or stronger. If they follow a similar size progression to the other strong dragon types, Huge size would be relatively easily attained.

Unless you or somebody else has access to stat blocks for purple dragons (and proof that is a purple dragon V is shapechanging into), I do not think that reaching equal size can be considered to be proof of anything.

[Underground]

Hmm my money gets on V.

OTOH that would stop the Comic immediately ... so maybe none of either will die.

[King of Nowhere]

Someone suggested that V took the half fiend template with the splice, and while I'm not an expert in templates, that seems convincing: he'd get +4 CON, a little acid resistance, and spell resistance (the dragon finger of death probably was stopped by spell resistance. Compare the picture of it with Roy taking a finger of death).
That would be enough to resist the damage taken in that battle, but not enough to survive Xykon's spells. Remember, Roy took a finger of death and a meteor swarm, and barely survived, but Roy is much harder than V, even in this form. V would not survive that, not even with the half fiend template. And Xykon has at least a +9 in CHA, so passing the save is a problem. Even with spell resistance, V is not likely to pass the DC 26+ against finger of death. Or against Redcloack's disintegrate, for that matter. Or against Redcloak's destruction.
Basically, with high level caster, the first to fail a save loses. And since arcane casters have high save DC and low saves, often the first who cast a spell wins. A 20th level caster that kills a 30th level one is not outside the realm of probability. It just takes winning initiative and the other guy not rolling too high on the save, and not having too much buffs.

But I think the mst important part is V's state of mind. Understimate your opponent to that extent is not healty if you want to win a fight.

[Dausuul]

Xykon will so utterly wipe the floor with Vaarsuvius (http://www.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CurbStompBattle), the souls he's bounded would be knocked to the other side of the universe. Seriously, you don't think that The Giant would let Xykon die that easily, do you? And it'd be a great way to show that the soul splice does not make you all powerful.

Uh, dude, Curb Stomp Battle is when the hero beats the crap out of the villain (http://www.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CurbStompBattle). You're thinking of No Holds Barred Beatdown (http://www.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NoHoldsBarredBeatdown).

...<looks around> What?

[Revenant]

The most powerful way, at least within a certain level range, is to use gate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gate.htm) to call and control stronger creatures. This does have the drawback of being limited by the availability of creatures, but those go well beyond 42 HD. There is a large difference between a 60 HD solar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/angel.htm#angelSolar) and a 140 HD elder titan (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/titanElder.htm). Notably, the latter is an epic spellcaster itself with caster level 29+ and 50+ will save.You raise a very valid point. I'd be very surprised if Ganonron, an epic Conjurer, wouldn't suggest summoning reinforcements if necessary. One slight issue is that the Cloister effect blocks all forms of Conjuration with the sole exception of the Summoning subschool, so unless it's dispelled, no Gate (it's Calling). Normal summoning would work just fine, however.

Alas, and I was so looking forward to seeing (http://thenonist.com/index.php/the_hundred_handed_giants/) a Hecatoncheires (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#hecatoncheires)! :smallcool:

[Dr. Cthulwho]

Screw Xykon, I'll bet that the throwdown jars the Snarl out of its cage and V goes *splat* in some arrogant attempt to take it down all by himself.

I actually wondered if something V does (or just the way he is) might draw that Snarl's attention somehow. Maybe at the very least inspire it to try and poke a tangle out the rift.

That, or Jephton epic spells (which we haven't seen yet) could effect things somehow. He was the soul that advised V to "tear down creation, just to see if you can", so he seems like the kind of guy who'd have some really warped epic spell. Doing anything even the tiniest, remotest bit like that around the rift would surely be pretty bad.


I mean, I'm sure a lot more is going to happen in the next few panels than one character or another getting owned.

I agree.

[JeptCloak]

What they said. Plus, I believe someone earlier explained that shapechange would allow up to lvl 50 in the source book, and the internet version is for some reason inconsistent.

Man, summoning an Epic Titan lvl 140 sounds like it would be sweet... they get 29th lvl wizard or cleric spells!!! Jesus!

So if there is one more Epic teleport, Ganeron is at least lvl 27 then? Good good.

[Raenir Salazar]

Let's examine some proposed outcomes.

1. Vaarsuvius defeats Xykon permanently: Impossible. Xykon must first come within 1000 feet of Girard's gate to fulfill the Oracle's prediction (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html).

2. V loses to Xykon and has his soul trapped: Possible, but unlikely. The fiends have some kind of plan (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0637.html) for V, and it involves the gates (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0380.html). It is unlikely that their plan is dependent on the Order defeating Xykon, resurrecting V after freeing his soul from the gem, and then bringing V close to the gates.

3. V loses to Xykon and loses both soul splices: Possible, but unlikely. If V loses both souls, then he will not be able to teleport back. We have already spent around 200 strips with the Order separated. The repetition of either the Order being separated or a convenient solution to the problem of V's separation is poor writing that I don't think will be done.

4. V loses to Xykon and loses at most one soul splice then escapes: Possible.

5. V finds Xykon gone and couldn't find Xykon with scrying: Possible.

6. V defeats Xykon but neglects to destroy the phylactery: Possible, but it would gratify his ego and is thus not in keeping with the trend that his deal was a bad decision.


I HAVE IT! V will defeat Xykon and bring his head back to the Order! Who will bring his head near the gate.

[Aharon]

@JeptCloak
The Wizards from the Coast have even the power to change the mightiest spell
:)
Shapechange was errata'ed from 2*CL, max 50HD to CL, max 25HD. Older versions of the books don't reflect this, but the SRD does.

[The Pilgrim]

If we are to analyze the possible outcome of the "V vs Xykon" battle, we are commiting a mistake by analizying it from a "who has more power" perspective. Both, and we all must agree here, are powerful enough to make any outcome possible.

We must, then, analyze the possible outcome by the perspective of wich outcome should fit better the Plot Line.

Let's see, then, how the possible outomes would affect the storyline:

1)
V disintegrates Team Evil. Totally.

Then Rich can hang a "The End" signal and close this webcomic. The only reason the OOTS are rushing to the Gates is to prevent them from falling to Xykon. If Xykon is obliterated, then they have no reason to keep on the Quest. Ok, we have still the Linear Guild around there, but, really, if V can wipe out Xykon, it can also curbstomp the Linears blindfolded and single-handed.

So won't happen.

2)
V wipes out Team Evil. Becomes the new villain.

Then the comic could go on. However, V doesn't fit well for the main villian role. Because it is far too powerful to be defeated by the Order. And also the Soul Splice has a limited duration, and after it's gone, V is not powerful enough to be a villian on it's own.

And, also, what's the point in writting "Start of Darkness" if Xykon and Redcloak are wipped out at the middle of the series?

A possible variation is that Team Evil manages to escape, and V becomes a new "side" in the conflict. Again, the problem is the same. Once the splice wears off, V lacks the power to be on hir own.

3)
V destroys Xykon, but forgets about the Philactery.

That would simply make the battle irrelevant and superfluous for the storyline. I mean, nothing would have changed. V, being victorious, would not drop the Soulsplice, but keep further using it to "solve problems". And as soon as it realizes about the Phil, it would inmediatly return to hunt down Redcloak.

Team Evil would have been temporaly inconvenienced, but that's about it.

And what kind of lesson would we have there? that selling your souls to Fiends is ok? I dunno.

4)
V destroys Xykon, Redcloak convinces it to become his new ally.

That possiblity, pointed by some people, seems totally out of plot logic for me. What motivation should V have to turn sides and collaborate with Redcloak? It doesn't gives a dime about the Dark One's plan, neither has any respect for Redcloak or the goblinoids.

Yes, Redcloak could lure hir with the promise of gaining arcane knowelde from the gates. But V being V, wouldn't never agree to the fact that it need aid, even less the aid of a Divine Caster, in order to adquire those powers. That's why it left Durkon and Elan in the first place.

So won't happen

5)
Xykon recruits V into Evil Team

This scenario, poited by some people, would be perfectly serviceable. I don't think V doing a Heel Face Turn fits very well into the plot, but who knows?

6)
Xykon kills V

Possible, but I think it's still to early into the plot for that. The OOTS can and will take casualties, but I think it's too soon still.

Sure, the OOTS can then Quest to raise V, but that should be quite repetitive. I mean, we all have got enough of that "resurrect Roy" crap, haven't we?

7)
Xykon beats V, thanks to either trickery, divine magic or sheer brute force. V losses the soulsplice, and is left lipping hir wounds

Possible. That would fulfill several plot issues (mainly, show V that arcane magic isn't the panacea for all, and show V that it needs hir friends).

But this outcome presents a problem. Once V losses the Splice, it is as good as dead: it can't use teleport, and lacks any mean to flee Xykon. Althrough, sure, Xykon could just leave hir alive for his own amusement.

8)
Xykon repels V

The battle ends in a stand off after both sides have depleted their resources. Or Team Evil manages to hold off V until it's depleted of power and forced to retreat. Either way, V returns to Azure Island with the splice still in effect but unable to had the job done.

I think it's the most fitting scenario. V has been taught that arcane magic alone can't solve all, and that (s)he alone can't solve all, not even with unlimited powers. V would then just drop the splice after rationalize that it's no longer useful. Or, if reluctant to do so, it should not be very difficult for the rest of the Order to talk hir into dropping it.

As a bonus, V could manage to release O'Chul, the Resistance and the Slaves and take them with hir to Azure Island. That way, it would make some sense that (s)he teleported the OOTS to Azure Island in the first place.

9)
V never gets to fight Xykon.

They have already gone, or whatever, the fight doesn't take place. V is so angry that (s)he finally loses control of the splice or decides to drop it.

A perfectly possible scenario.

10)
Rich surprises we all, again, with something nobody predicted.
This is actually the scenario I bet my money in.

[Harr]

Hm... my guess is that they'll start fighting, Xykon just able to hold him off while they talk, and he will trick V, somehow using his recent frustrations at being ineffective and wanting more power and all that, into agreeing to some kind of deal with Xykon, thereby saying the *real* four words, with Xykon as the "being" of the prophecy, giving V *real* ultimate power, but also putting him into servitude under Xykon.

I know, I know, it's a ridiculously long shot, the prophecy is already fulfilled with the fiends thing, and people will probably line up to flame me and so on and so forth, but it is what I genuinely think will happen, so sue me.

[Volkov]

V suffers total existence failure, end of story.

[Chameleon]

Don't forget that the Fiends are interested in the Snarl too. Since V lost one soul already, it means one of the fiends can take control of Vaarsuvius for 'several comic pages' and do something terrible regarding the Gates/Snarl.

[ChaosDefender24]

It's pretty clear to me that Xykon is going to be bodily destroyed. V has the element of surprise, so before Xykon has any time to piece together what's going on, he'll get enough metamagick'ed stuff/epic damage spells in his face to vaporize him several times over.

However, Xykon will then manifest in the phylactery around Redcloak's neck, and assuming that Redcloak isn't right next to Xykon when V shows up, this will give Xykon time to think. During this time, Xykon should be able to figure out that V sold his soul to fiends for power, given the inexplicable spike in V's prowess and his fiendish mien. When V approaches the phylactery for the kill, Xykon will speak to V, tormenting him about his decision like only Xykon can. This tactic will work much better than Xykon had expected, because he was expecting to merely emotionally subdue V (for Xykon probably knows nothing about soul splices), but this would in fact strip V of all his newfound power. Then, Redcloak would defeat V, and he would be at the mercy of the three archfiends.

[Haven]

Xykon will wipe the floor with V, then force V to serve him. To quote Start of Darkness:

"I ripped off my own living flesh so that I wouldn't have to admit weakness. You're strictly little league compared to that. That right there? That's the difference between bonafide true Evil with a capital "E" and your whiny "evil, but for a good cause," crap. One gets to be the butch, and one gets to be the bitch — Bitch."

Surprisingly appropriate. Such a good line, too.
Do not underestimate Xykon, or he will beat you, then humiliate you.

I think that actually counts as foreshadowing that V's gonna beat him, in that V did the same thing, only more so (in terms of effectiveness and power increase, at least).

But yeah, I'm pretty sure V's gonna stomp Xykon, probably with an assist by Redcloak, who will then become the new Big Bad and offer V (once he loses the splices) a job as his right-hand man in exchange for more knowledge about the gates and thus the nature of ultimate arcane power. V will then say four words to him ("What the hell, sure") cementing the deal.

[batsofchaos]

My guess is that in the time since we last saw Xykon and Redcloak torturing O-Chul, team evil has cleared out of Azure City and left the Hobbos in place. I doubt V has much interest in taking out said hobgoblins, but will have no point of reference for where Xykon currently is. Aside from dealing with the black dragon, this soul-splice ordeal has had nothing but a series of obstacles spring up in V's way, further delaying the desire to end the soul splice and increasing V's debt. Having Xykon et al gone just continues the pattern.

[VariaVespasa]

If V can cut through Xykon's epic Cloister like that, despite having "the most powerful abjuration ever" then Xykon should be toast.

Actually I think the (presumed) failure of the Cloister spell is not that V is vastly stronger than it or Xykon, but rather that Cloister blocks teleports AND other stuff, whereas epic teleport JUST teleports, and its fairly axiomatic that specialist spells/units/whatever beat generalist spells/units/whatever of the same level in their area of specialization.

Pilgrim- you forgot one option, a variant of your #3- V kills Xykon but forgets the phylactery (or doesnt know about it- entirely possible since only Soon seems to have known that about liches so far, and the necromancer splice that could have told V has already escaped.), returns to the Order, and, being keenly aware of the debt he's racking up (as undeniably demonstrated in this last strip), immediately dismisses the remaining splices before finding out about the problem. Xykon continues, possibly spurred into new action, the Order continues, maybe aware of the issue or maybe blithely going off on some other tangent thinking they've completed their quest till something reveals their error, which could happen in many ways, although my money would be on either Roys sister (being a mage with a specific interest in knowing lich info) or Hinjo. The strip does NOT end, Rich keeps his "The End" sign to himself a while longer.

[Da'Shain]

I have to say, I think it highly unlikely that V would forget about the phylactery, considering that they've already "killed" Xykon once and he came back thanks to the phylactery. I'd be willing to bet that the OOTS is fully aware of this strength/weakness of liches by now. Roy certainly is, after being filled in on it by his father (long before he was killed), and there's no reason why Roy would not share this vital piece of information with his team, nor is there a reason why V would not have researched the problem even if Roy hadn't told them. It's possible that V still doesn't know, but it would really be stretching.


Also, does anyone know the answer to my earlier question? What happens when a Soul Spliced character gets Energy Drained? I seem to remember that there were mechanical rules somewhere for a single Soul Splice or equivalent thereof; does the drain affect spliced souls, the original caster, or the whole amalgamation-thingy? In other words, would V's base 14/15 levels be affected, or would the souls' levels be drained before his, or would all of them get drained at the same time?

[MickJay]

What I think about the subject is in the older and bigger thread with almost exactly the same topic as this one. :smalltongue:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=110670&page=5

[Surfing HalfOrc]

I had a strange though, based on the end of strip 650, and a comment made during 650...

V's deal is three minutes of torture for each minute of splice, and (apparantly) no reduction if one or more of the three spliced souls escape(One for one, times 3). If Xykon uses soul bind on V during their battle, the clock keeps running unless V dumps the extra souls BEFORE being drawn into the gem.

Right now, V is into the IFCC for one hour and counting, it would really suck if V ended up enduring YEARS or even CENTURIES of torture because s/he accepted their offer. :smalleek:

[Undead Prince]

Cloister blocks teleports AND other stuff, whereas epic teleport JUST teleports, and its fairly axiomatic that specialist spells/units/whatever beat generalist spells/units/whatever of the same level in their area of specialization.

That, sir, is utter bollocks.

Yes, this is the entirety of my post.

[thelveres]

well one thing I haven't yet seen speculated here, is that xykon somehow turns familycide against v, and brings all those dead *and pissed dragons to fight by his side.

I wanted to add the possibility of the necromancer soul who left joining xykon in exchange for somehow being brought back to life, but someone already said something similar a few pages ago.

Many people have mentioned that cause of redcloak's richer background he is a more likely candidate for an arch villain, but this is not counting the fact that a story (a whole book even?) might be released about xykon's origins. (a very good timing for that would be after he for example shows his true power and wipes the floor with V (a la naruto style -while your going wtf)

[Undead Prince]

V's deal is three minutes of torture for each minute of splice,

No, though V may think it is. The fiends only mentioned "custody" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0633.html) of V's soul. Or, as V himself puts it, "dominion".

What "custody" may entail is open to speculation. It could mean "control" over V's soul (that would be outside DnD canon, but the entire Soul Splice is); or it could mean putting an evil soul in control of V's body, while V's soul is rendered helpless; or something else entirely.

The fiends strike as a very pragmatic bunch. Torturing V is not something they look forward to - they've got enough regular souls for that. They've got a Big Plan that involves the gates, but for general Lower Planes reasons they can't directly intervene (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0637.html), so they're forced to use a proxy - V.


and (apparantly) no reduction if one or more of the three spliced souls escape(One for one, times 3).

No, according to the contract "each one [of the Fiends] gets [V's] soul for the same amount of time that [V] is under effect of their soul splice". So V owes less to the purple fiend than to the other two.


If Xykon uses soul bind on V during their battle, the clock keeps running unless V dumps the extra souls BEFORE being drawn into the gem.

By RAW, Soul Bind would put each soul into a separate black diamond, thus destroying the splice.

In fact, Soul Bind may be a spell that counters the Soul Splice. Xykon probably hasn't got enough levels to dispel the fiends' powerful magic using the "dispel magic" spells (which call for opposed caster level checks), but he may negate it by accidentally using the right spell as a counter. And Soul Bind looks like just the spell for the job.


Right now, V is into the IFCC for one hour and counting, it would really suck if V ended up enduring YEARS or even CENTURIES of torture because s/he accepted their offer.

Bah. The Lower Planes work entirely differently than Dante's Inferno. The Nine Hells (lawful evil afterlife) turns you into a lemure almost immediately upon arrival. This involves total and irreversible destruction of personality. So, normally, V will cease to exist a few minutes after entering Baator.

However, before being turned into lemures, powerful evil characters can cut deals with the devils, or even muscle their way out of the devils' hands.

Nonetheless, if for some reason the IFCC would want to go full throttle on V, they would ensure he's a gibbering lemure 6 seconds after death (immediate teleport into the Maggot Pit), and the actual amount of V's debt would be irrelevant.

They could even release V as the lemure once the debt expires. No point in it, though, as nothing short of divine intervention could probably turn him back into himself again.

But, of course OoTS works under its own rules, so mileage may vary.

[Rajhiim]

I think it's been said --

X will get V started on a tirade, something about arcane magic blah blah blah.... at which time X will sucker-punch V and the two souls will bounce for greener planes (ooooh -- if only we could get inside X's body, then we'd have some fun!) V will then retreat, humbled. X will be distracted by the two souls, allowing V to escape. Redcloak will protest her escape and X will say something like, "who? What ever, did you see those two souls? Wow, I mean just wow. That's my kind of evil."

OR ...

Maybe the necromancer soul comes back and makes a mess of it.

[Undead Prince]

Let's see, then, how the possible outomes would affect the storyline:

Nice summing up of a number of theories.

Out of the substantial ones (not counting #10), I am partial to #7:


Xykon beats V, thanks to either trickery, divine magic or sheer brute force. V losses the soulsplice, and is left lipping hir wounds

Possible. That would fulfill several plot issues (mainly, show V that arcane magic isn't the panacea for all, and show V that it needs hir friends).

But this outcome presents a problem. Once V losses the Splice, it is as good as dead: it can't use teleport, and lacks any mean to flee Xykon. Althrough, sure, Xykon could just leave hir alive for his own amusement.

You didn't take into account the possibility that V could lose the last soul after he teleported to safety. E.g., after frantically running away, V stops to consider his string of failures, is utterly disheartened, and loses the last splice.

There is, however, another problem here. Xykon would probably want to make sure such a powerful foe is eliminated forever. Therefore, he's gonna scry + teleport on V, and V doesn't even have access to Mind Blank without the splice.

However, Xykon has previously shown to be a sport, and does not hunt down lower-level PCs. So, once verifying V's epic powers are gone (perhaps through scrying), he may just decide to leave V alone.

So, there's this minor hole. But there are major holes in the other two probable scenarios:

#9: V has more than enough power to reach Xykon if he wants to, and he's already made up his mind to do it. If Cloister can't stop V, then probably nothing else can. An Epic Spell with Scry + Dispel + Teleport would beat through all of Xykon's defenses.

#8: I don't think V would let go of the splice voluntarily. I mean, he's dumb, but I doubt he's that dumb. He's got nothing to lose by keeping the splice, and everything to gain, despite the setbacks and possible failures.

So I think #7 as amended is the most likely outcome, barring #10, of course.

[Undead Prince]

My guess is that it will be ugly:

V arrives and discovers that Xykon, Redcloak, MiTD, and the tougher minions are gone, off to Girard's Gate. Since V. still has no idea where the Gate is, V throws a rather violent temper tantrum and vaporizes a large part of Azure City before teleporting back to the OoTS and waiting in increasing impatience as Durkon finishes resurrecting Roy.

Yeah, as if V can't scry for Xykon if needed.

Or, cast Ethereal Jaunt to get on the same plane with Roy's spirit, and ask him directly.

[NaelokQ]

Frick, trying to register (apparently I made an account here before?) and post this took forever. And it takes even longer to go through the archive. I think someone really needs to invest in a new server.

He'll lose a splice via this:

At the start of this storyline V was agonizing about this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0623.html).

In Azure City, there are these guys (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0535.html) running around making a big old fuss.

2 + 2 = ?

[Da'Shain]

Well, unless the "subcontractors" tell V that Roy is there, V is most likely to attempt a Plane Shift if he wants to talk with Roy, which would fail as Roy's on the Ethereal Plane right now, it seems. And possibly get him attacked by angels.

[liooil2000]

8)
Xykon repels V

The battle ends in a stand off after both sides have depleted their resources. Or Team Evil manages to hold off V until it's depleted of power and forced to retreat. Either way, V returns to Azure Island with the splice still in effect but unable to had the job done.

I think it's the most fitting scenario. V has been taught that arcane magic alone can't solve all, and that (s)he alone can't solve all, not even with unlimited powers. V would then just drop the splice after rationalize that it's no longer useful. Or, if reluctant to do so, it should not be very difficult for the rest of the Order to talk hir into dropping it.

As a bonus, V could manage to release O'Chul, the Resistance and the Slaves and take them with hir to Azure Island. That way, it would make some sense that (s)he teleported the OOTS to Azure Island in the first place.

this is most likely to happen in my opinion.

[Pyron]

I figured I'd chime in with my thoughts on the whole Xykon vs. V thread



Imagine the opening...

:vaarsuvius: Xykon, you're evil ambition ends here.
:xykon: Do I know you.... wait, I remember now. You're that air guardian from Durokon's dungeon.
:vaarsuvius: :smallfurious: Intensified Disintegrate!

If the whole purpose of this character arc is to teach V some humility regarding her thoughts that arcane magic as the answer to the world's problems then mopping the floor with Xykon will severely undermine that. Worse, it'll give V a colossal chip on her shoulder. Therefore, I believe that either V's going to lose (and flee) or at the very best score a Pyrrhic victory by giving the lich a bloody nose at some great expense.

When I say great expense, I don't mean losing the soul splice. I thinking it's going to be something that'll affect more than V. Whether she wins or lose, she's going to make something worse. I have two theories.

1) I agree with NaelokQ's assessment. This arc began with V's flashback of the Azure City Siege. Somehow, I believe that when she returns, V's going to be so reckless with her magic in pursuing Xykon, end up hurting the human population, and some members of the resistance will curse her name. That might trigger some emotional shock and V ends up losing a soul.

2) The battle goes outside Azure City, and the two start teleporting willy nilly. At one point, they'll be unknowingly within 1000 miles of Girard's Gate (thus fulfilling the prophecy). Once the battle is over, Xykon will dust himself off, see no point to stay in Azure City and order his minion to head towards Kraagor's Gate. :smallbiggrin:

[isocum]

7)
Xykon beats V, thanks to either trickery, divine magic or sheer brute force. V losses the soulsplice, and is left lipping hir wounds

Possible. That would fulfill several plot issues (mainly, show V that arcane magic isn't the panacea for all, and show V that it needs hir friends).

But this outcome presents a problem. Once V losses the Splice, it is as good as dead: it can't use teleport, and lacks any mean to flee Xykon. Althrough, sure, Xykon could just leave hir alive for his own amusement.


i think iifc can&will teleport(or maybe summon would be a better word) V out in that kind of scenario, and later explain their act by revealing that they can use V when she is alive, adding insult to injury. they can also teleport her back to the order

[derfenrirwolv]

I'd be surprised if Xykons throwaway comment about only being able to make magic items 8 hours a day didn't come up here.

V pops in, and there's 100 low level casters with a high level wands waiting to blast him. Sure, they'll hit each other, but that's the fun of minions!

[King of Nowhere]

By RAW, Soul Bind would put each soul into a separate black diamond, thus destroying the splice.

In fact, Soul Bind may be a spell that counters the Soul Splice. Xykon probably hasn't got enough levels to dispel the fiends' powerful magic using the "dispel magic" spells (which call for opposed caster level checks), but he may negate it by accidentally using the right spell as a counter. And Soul Bind looks like just the spell for the job.


That may actually work. V has the upper hand, but Xykon somehow understand the whole splice thing, and uses soul bind on jepthon and ganoron, thus depriving V of his powers.
Not that I see it happening.

[Chirios]

How does that settle anything, exactly? Even assuming that logic is correct - which it isn't necessarily - what benefit does V gain from having the three souls' caster levels stack?

Increased HP.

[David Argall]

V is super-V and will clobber Xykon, totally beat him up.

Now Xykon has to survive, so V has to fail in some way, such as forgetting the phylactery. But it will not be because of any magic power of Xykon or lack of power of V.

Note here that V winning is plot useful. Team Evil has been loafing around in Azure City for almost a year. They need a reason for leaving town, which being kicked around by V does.

[dancrilis]

I could see Xykon winning a number of ways, my prefered one is,


Xykon has used the time to upgrade to a demi-lich.
V's power would be next to worthless against him and would teach V that magic is not the answer to everything, and a seriously buffed fighter would stand a slightly better chance against a demi-lich then a wizard (justifing Roy's decisions above Eugene's desires).
The only problem I would have with this is that demi-liches are so powerful that the order could never really challange Xykon again until they are all level 25+ (a rough guess on my part), and that assumes that Xykon gets no more powerful in the meantime.

And it is perfectly in character for Xykon to do this and within the rules (if you care about that sort of thing).

[The Pilgrim]

i think iifc can&will teleport(or maybe summon would be a better word) V out in that kind of scenario, and later explain their act by revealing that they can use V when she is alive, adding insult to injury. they can also teleport her back to the order

Good thought.

IIFC has taken too much efforts just to let their new puppet die before being useful. So I agree with you, they could very well save hir ass. But I don't think IIFC would reveal V that they can control hir while alive. That could spoil their plans as V obviously would either warn hir allies, or just refuse to approach a Gate.


Pilgrim- you forgot one option, a variant of your #3- V kills Xykon but forgets the phylactery (or doesnt know about it- entirely possible since only Soon seems to have known that about liches so far, and the necromancer splice that could have told V has already escaped.), returns to the Order, and, being keenly aware of the debt he's racking up (as undeniably demonstrated in this last strip), immediately dismisses the remaining splices before finding out about the problem. Xykon continues, possibly spurred into new action, the Order continues, maybe aware of the issue or maybe blithely going off on some other tangent thinking they've completed their quest till something reveals their error, which could happen in many ways, although my money would be on either Roys sister (being a mage with a specific interest in knowing lich info) or Hinjo. The strip does NOT end, Rich keeps his "The End" sign to himself a while longer.

I must admit that the redacton of #3 is not as clear as it should be. :smallredface:

As you point, V could forget about the Phil, drop the splice and remember later. The problem here is that if V trumps Xykon, this would reafirmate hir in hir decission to keep the splice. And we all agree that V has to drop the splice in order for this story arc to end

[Trodon]

my money is on ether V will win or nether of them will die/win

[Galderon]

Listen,man. V will start strong, but his power will diminish soon. Xykon will probably(accidentally) startle another spirit out. Likely with that huge as hell fireball spell he killed Roy and Dorukon(spellcheck?)with.He will then either be killed(which I doubt because I think the V needs to kill Pompey first, due to naming)or flung into the ocean, a la Wind Waker. A third option would be that V flees back to the island. Whatever the case, Xykon will most assuredly kick V in the indrgynious elven ass.

[Dagren]

In fact, Soul Bind may be a spell that counters the Soul Splice. Xykon probably hasn't got enough levels to dispel the fiends' powerful magic using the "dispel magic" spells (which call for opposed caster level checks), but he may negate it by accidentally using the right spell as a counter. And Soul Bind looks like just the spell for the job.But Soul Bind is used on a dead body, i.e. after V has already lost. Why would Xykon be casting it on V while she's still alive? Xykon doesn't know about the splice, much less that Soul Bind would affect it. (and that's assuming that the theory is sound) It might work, but it's a very long shot.

As for the result of a battle, it's been pointed out that when V makes a big song and dance about something, she seems to fail. When she just does something, she tends to succeed. So far, she's just said "I'm going to kill Xykon". Short and to the point. So I think that if she just pops in and starts blasting, she should win. If she makes a big speech to him, she will probably lose. This isn't just for dramatic reasons though, since if she takes the initiative she has an immediate advantage, as opposed to if she let's Xykon recover from his shock where he likely takes initiative.

[Revenant]

Increased HP.What? Caster level (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/castingSpells.htm#casterLevel) has nothing to do with HP, unless you're casting False Life (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/falseLife.htm), and even then it's only up to 10.

Please explain.

[Super_slash2]

Sorry if this has been addressed earlier in this topic - it's seriously very long.

Why do people use The Oracle's Divination that Xykon will be within 1000 Feet of Girard's Gate first to say that Xykon will not be killed?

Xykon stunned O-chul in the throne room about a metre from the sapphire. He was flying around on a dragon, I'm sure he was close to it IF The Gate was actually in the sky.... Xykon clearly has passed the point of 'being within 1000 Feet of a gate". My assumption was that they passed Girard's Gate on the way to Azure City and either didn't know it or didn't care about it. And as a result, passed Girard's Gate (fulfilled the prophecy) but reached Azure City's Gate.

If you're still waiting for Xykon to be within 1000 Feet of anything, I think that ship has sailed.

[JeptCloak]

I think it can be infered reasonably clearly that Xykon is lvl 21-22 (Durkon being able to dispel his magic, 7-8 lvls above Roy, general showings to date, etc). I also think anyone who thinks V doesn't have a 3rd Epic Teleport is being too cautious. Sure, we haven't seen it yet, but he clearly intends to return right after he kills Xykon, and he knew he'd need an Epic teleport to get in. He has no idea how well guarded, etc, Xykon's tower in Azure is, so it seems incredibly likely he has a 3rd Epic Teleport ready and waiting. I'm told this means Ganeron has to be lvl 27 at least. That seems about in line with what you'd expect. That puts him 5 lvls above Xykon without needing to even consider Jephton or V. From what I understand even being 1 or 2 Epic levels above is a huge difference. Accepting this hypothesis as true, how can you make a plausible case for Xykon?

And by plausible I mean "if you objectively looked at it, you would come to the conclusion that Xykon has a decent shot based on power lvls" not "V will somehow screw up" or "I can do a scenario where V loses using intricate planning"...

[Xacal]

The upcoming duel will be epic for sure! :smallbiggrin:
But I really think it'll depend if the D:mitd: shows up, or if V loses Ganron's splice upon the entry to Azure City....

[Legendary]

Xykon clearly has passed the point of 'being within 1000 Feet of a gate". My assumption was that they passed Girard's Gate on the way to Azure City and either didn't know it or didn't care about it. And as a result, passed Girard's Gate (fulfilled the prophecy) but reached Azure City's Gate.

Uhm... The whole point of Roy's question was that he completely forgot to consider Azure City Gate, and that the Oracle tried desperately to have him to include it in the question- so that he could answer with THAT one. By the Oracle's question, it seems clear that the order of gates is Azure -> Girard -> Kraagor.

As far as V vs. X goes, the victor will be O-Chul.

[Payne]

My 2 copper pieces:


Since "the wizard flies at the speed of plot" my guess power gauges are irrelevant. Whatever gets the story kick ass will win out.

Something along V summoning part of the positive plane down on Azure city to destroy X's undeath energies.
(probably after much epic battling for the gallery to enjoy.)

Then: plot twist,the energies open the gate and V has unwillingly furthered the doom of all.

Further plot twist: X is defeated, but a simple contingency spell saves his ass (or his phylactery just has not been destroyed).

[Dagren]

Sorry if this has been addressed earlier in this topic - it's seriously very long.

Why do people use The Oracle's Divination that Xykon will be within 1000 Feet of Girard's Gate first to say that Xykon will not be killed?

Xykon stunned O-chul in the throne room about a metre from the sapphire. He was flying around on a dragon, I'm sure he was close to it IF The Gate was actually in the sky.... Xykon clearly has passed the point of 'being within 1000 Feet of a gate". My assumption was that they passed Girard's Gate on the way to Azure City and either didn't know it or didn't care about it. And as a result, passed Girard's Gate (fulfilled the prophecy) but reached Azure City's Gate.

If you're still waiting for Xykon to be within 1000 Feet of anything, I think that ship has sailed.No. Girard's Gate is on the other side of the ocean, there's no way Xkon 'just passed it' on the way to Azure City.

[Aharon]

@dancrillis

depends on the time that has passed. Doing that would take at least 192 days with Efficient Item creation, 1920 days without it - and he couldn't create any other items.

Even if he did, a wizard stands a much better chance against a demilich than a fighter - the wizard can summon stuff to be soul-bound, while the fighter will almost certainly end up in one of the jewels.

[pendell]

I remember the Oracle, when discussing death, say to Belkar "and as for the elf ..."

... foreshadowing that V would die, and Belkar would somehow be involved. He couldn't really be blamed for sending V to his/hir death with the five strip comment, but a reaching Oracle might try to argue that.

Methinks V is going to die here. My guess is things will start out well, then something or someone will turn the tide.

Still, I can't imagine the Giant sending us on another multi-hundred strip scavenger hunt for V's body. I guess we'll see.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Volkov]

Maybe V comes in only to find that Xykon's become a demi-lich and gets his souls sucked in.

[e1_conquistador]

Ah, I was hoping it'd come to this. This'd be a good way to get this plot back on track.

C'mon, we all know what's going to happen; Xykon is going to make Varsuvius some offer that ends up making him more evil, and he's not going to get destroyed. he's too important a character.

That said? I really wish V would just *win*, even if it's just a temporary victory and Xykon regenerates. The idea that V's got "ultimate arcane power" but keeps getting foiled stretches my suspension of disbelief. Besides, we have yet to see what the "crazy soul's" epic spell is yet...

[Volkov]

Ah, I was hoping it'd come to this. This'd be a good way to get this plot back on track.

C'mon, we all know what's going to happen; Xykon is going to make Varsuvius some offer that ends up making him more evil, and he's not going to get destroyed. he's too important a character.

That said? I really wish V would just *win*, even if it's just a temporary victory and Xykon regenerates. The idea that V's got "ultimate arcane power" but keeps getting foiled stretches my suspension of disbelief. Besides, we have yet to see what the "crazy soul's" epic spell is yet...

Maybe Xykon as a demilich could just steal ganonron from V. Then he could use his uber charisma to trick V into joining him, after all I assume he rolled a cha score of 18, spent all six points from level gain on charisma, for 24, has a +5 inherent bonus to charisma, for 29, a +12 cloak of charisma for 41, +3 for venerable age for 44, +2 for being a lich for 46, +10 for being a demilich for 56, and a permanent eagle's splendor for 60. A +25 charisma modifier means he could bluff V into jumping off a cliff.

[David Argall]

Ah, I was hoping it'd come to this. This'd be a good way to get this plot back on track.

C'mon, we all know what's going to happen; Xykon is going to make Varsuvius some offer that ends up making him more evil, and he's not going to get destroyed. he's too important a character.
V is too important a character as a member of the party. She is not needed on Team Evil. And what could Xykon offer?


That said? I really wish V would just *win*, even if it's just a temporary victory and Xykon regenerates. The idea that V's got "ultimate arcane power" but keeps getting foiled stretches my suspension of disbelief.
V is quite likely to "win", thereby forcing Team Evil to get on the road to the next gate and getting the plot back on track.

[paladinofshojo]

What? I'm serious, whenever that sociopathic lich meets someone just as strong if not stronger than him he only wins (or survives) out of sheer luck..... Dorukan, Soon Kim, etc. What makes Vaarsuvius any different? Didn't the Order learn what happened the last time they tried to fight the plot?
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0251.html

[xyzzy]

What? I'm serious, whenever that sociopathic lich meets someone just as strong if not stronger than him he only wins (or survives) out of sheer luck..... Dorukan, Soon Kim, etc. What makes Vaarsuvius any different? Didn't the Order learn what happened the last time they tried to fight the plot?
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0251.html

Yeah, just like Roy's plot armor protected him when he fou--

No.

[paladinofshojo]

Yeah, just like Roy's plot armor protected him when he fou--

No.

Whoever said Roy had plot armour? He's a PC it's supposed to be difficult for him........

[The Blackbird]

What? I'm serious, whenever that sociopathic lich meets someone just as strong if not stronger than him he only wins (or survives) out of sheer luck..... Dorukan, Soon Kim, etc. What makes Vaarsuvius any different? Didn't the Order learn what happened the last time they tried to fight the plot?
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0251.html

The Giant made a very good description of that off panel Miko fight. She won fair and sqaure (Mostly).

EDIT: Here's a link (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=291639#post291639)

[xyzzy]

Whoever said Roy had plot armour? He's a PC it's supposed to be difficult for him........

I'm saying no one in this comic has plot armor. Not Roy, not Xykon, not the flumphs. They can all die at any time and the story will go on until it is done.

Killing Xykon, even permanently, would not make the story over.

[The Blackbird]

I'm saying no one in this comic has plot armor. Not Roy, not Xykon, not the flumphs. They can all die at any time and the story will go on until it is done.

Killing Xykon, even permanently, would not make the story over.

Xykon's not gonna die, unless it's within 1000 feet of Girand's Gate

[kpenguin]

What? I'm serious, whenever that sociopathic lich meets someone just as strong if not stronger than him he only wins (or survives) out of sheer luck..... Dorukan, Soon Kim, etc. What makes Vaarsuvius any different? Didn't the Order learn what happened the last time they tried to fight the plot?
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0251.html

What, like when his plot armor protected when he broke Roy's swo-

Oh wait. He lost that fight and died.

Also, Dorukan wasn't sheer luck. He really does deserve that win.

[The Blackbird]

Also, Dorukan wasn't sheer luck. He really does deserve that win.

Though I agree with this, I've always wondered, what could have Dorukon done if Xykon had started the Energy Drain tactic first thing?

[HamsterOfTheGod]

I think it can be infered reasonably clearly that Xykon is lvl 21-22 (Durkon being able to dispel his magic, 7-8 lvls above Roy, general showings to date, etc). I also think anyone who thinks V doesn't have a 3rd Epic Teleport is being too cautious. Sure, we haven't seen it yet, but he clearly intends to return right after he kills Xykon, and he knew he'd need an Epic teleport to get in. He has no idea how well guarded, etc, Xykon's tower in Azure is, so it seems incredibly likely he has a 3rd Epic Teleport ready and waiting. I'm told this means Ganeron has to be lvl 27 at least. That seems about in line with what you'd expect. That puts him 5 lvls above Xykon without needing to even consider Jephton or V. From what I understand even being 1 or 2 Epic levels above is a huge difference. Accepting this hypothesis as true, how can you make a plausible case for Xykon?

And by plausible I mean "if you objectively looked at it, you would come to the conclusion that Xykon has a decent shot based on power lvls" not "V will somehow screw up" or "I can do a scenario where V loses using intricate planning"...

Cause epic spells are broken and it is likely Xykon has at least 1 epic spell ready...
and Xykon still has the Cloister on which is causing "interference" to the Epic Teleport so perhaps Xykon's teeth are rattling in their bony sockets...
and Redcloak has an artifact and is THE champion of his god...
and the MiTD is probably epic and can switch from comic ineptitude to just in time dramatic competence in an instant...
and V did not bother to scry before teleporting...
and the soul splices are vulnerable to being severed due to lack of concentration...
and any number of other magical devices and spells could come into play in Xykon's favor...
including the rift...

[mskkid]

The Giant has shown us that nobody has plot armor. Not Roy, not Miko, Not Xykon. Nobody.

[HamsterOfTheGod]

What? I'm serious, whenever that sociopathic lich meets someone just as strong if not stronger than him he only wins (or survives) out of sheer luck..... Dorukan, Soon Kim, etc. What makes Vaarsuvius any different? Didn't the Order learn what happened the last time they tried to fight the plot?
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0251.html

Fortune favors evil psychopaths bent on world domination.

Yeah luck has played a role in his wins (and losses) but everyone needs some luck. Overall thouugh Xykon has shown he's got enough to be in the game, power, cunning, ruthlessness ... insanity.

So I would say he's got better than plot armor. He's got believability.

[shadzar]

Xykon's not gonna die, unless it's within 1000 feet of Girand's Gate


If the Lich sorcerer commonly referred to as "Xykon" will ever be, at some future point in time, within a 1000-foot radius of any one of these two magical gates

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html

There was nothing said about whether or not Xykon would be alive/undead or dead, etc when he was going to be there, only the chronologically first gate he would be within 1000-foot radius of, would be Girard's IF at some point in the future he will be within a 1000-foot radius of either of the two gates.

His phylactery being within 1000-feet of Girard's Gate would certainly fulfill the oracle's prophecy.

[The Blackbird]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html

There was nothing said about whether or not Xykon would be alive/undead or dead, etc when he was going to be there, only the chronologically first gate he would be within 1000-foot radius of, would be Girard's IF at some point in the future he will be within a 1000-foot radius of either of the two gates.

His phylactery being within 1000-feet of Girard's Gate would certainly fulfill the oracle's prophecy.

Wait, I thought we were talking about V killing Xykon for good. If it's just about V destroying him once then thats fine. I only meant my statement to be towards the arguement that V would kill Xykon pernamently.

[Red XIV]

What, like when his plot armor protected when he broke Roy's swo-

Oh wait. He lost that fight and died.
Died? Aside from the fact that Xykon was already dead, all Roy really did was inconvenience him. Well, that and take away his cool crown and magic items, but still.

And after defeating Xykon (through dumb luck, granted), neither Roy nor anyone else in the Order realized that to permanently destroy a lich you have to destroy their phylactery, and thus nobody pursued Redcloak. But I guess you can't say that was plot armor protecting Xykon, since Redcloak and MITD could have taken the Order anyway if they had pursued.