PDA

View Full Version : Looking to grow a Wizard Up from level 1



Josh the Aspie
2009-05-03, 02:34 AM
All,

Hey there! I am currently trying to get a game together in which I would play a wizard for the first time ever on another board. I am looking for some build advice if this works. First of all, I doubt the game will be Forgotten Realms specific, so Dweomerkeeper, and Incanatrix are likely out.

The combination I'm currently looking at is Wizard 5 / Ruthar 3 / Something 1 (6th level of wizard?) / Initiate of the Seven Fold Veil 7 / Abjurant Champion 5 (yes, I realize this completed progression into epic levels).

I am debating on whether to have my character be human, elven, or a member of another race. I am unsure as to if the DM will allow level buy back, since we don't really have a DM picked out yet for sure.

Some possible thoughts I have explored are Elven racial substitution levels for Wizard, or the tighter specialist wizard type. I'm also debating between specializing now, to get more spells cast per day and in my spell book earlier, or whether to specialize upon entering the abjurant champion class, in order to retain use of spells I learned before entering said class, and becoming a specialist.

Any advice?

Tempest Fennac
2009-05-03, 02:46 AM
One option which would be better then Generalizing if you didn't want to lose access to any schools of magic the Domain Wizard: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wizardVariantDomainWiz ard . Racewise, I made a race of humanoid fennec foxes a while back which may be a good option if the DM allows it and you don't mind playing as a cute race: www.giantitp.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-104140.html .

If you decide to specialise, Transmutation and Conjuration are seen as 2 spells which you can't afford to ban. You'll need Abjuration (specialising in it wouldn't be that optimal, but it would fit your character), and Enchantment and Evocation are seen as ood schools to ban due to Conjuration providing some blasting which ignores SR, and a lot of things are immune to Enchantment. Necromancy or Illusion could be options (Necromancy can be good for de-buffing and Illusion can be good for adding to your defences, though). By the way unless your houserules are different, you must specialise at level 1 (I've never heard of anyone else retraining that, but I guess it wouldn't be that much of a problem).

Bluebeard
2009-05-03, 02:47 AM
Some possible thoughts I have explored are Elven racial substitution levels for Wizard, or the tighter specialist wizard type.
...
Any advice?

Abjurant Champion and Ruathar are rubbish for a real spellcaster.
Pick something that makes you better at what you do.
Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil is overrated unless you can scrounge a bunch of bonus feats.

Master Specialist (Abjurer) actually deals with most of these problems on its own.
At very least go Wizard 3/Master Abjurer 2/etc.
MS meshes very elegantly with Iot7V, providing 2/3 of the worthless prerequisite feats and making a clean 20-level build.

edit:

I'm also debating between specializing now, to get more spells cast per day and in my spell book earlier, or whether to specialize upon entering the abjurant champion class, in order to retain use of spells I learned before entering said class, and becoming a specialist.
I have no idea what you're talking about here.
Once you retrain (assuming you're using PHB2 retraining), you take all the penalties of the new specialization along with the benefits.
You don't retain the ability to cast spells spells learned from forbidden schools, even if they're already in your spellbook.

Unless there are some houserules in place.
If there are, they'd be good to know.

Tempest Fennac
2009-05-03, 02:52 AM
What do Ruathars do? I thought Abjurant Champion would be an okay choice for boosting defences if Josh couldn't spare magic item slots for defence braces (I'd rule that the spell boosts Mage Armour as well due to it making sense for the spell to improve that).

Bluebeard
2009-05-03, 02:56 AM
What do Ruathars do? I thought Abjurant Champion would be an okay choice for boosting defences if Josh couldn't spare magic item slots for defence braces (I'd rule that the spell boosts Mage Armour as well due to it making sense for the spell to improve that).
Ruathar is usually used for filler levels in Fighter/Wizard or Rogue/Wizard characters.
No real class abilities of note, 3 levels of full casting, 3/4 BA and either 4+Int or 6+Int skills (I can't remember).
Any character can enter by level 6.
Fluff-wise they clash with actually being an elf. They're more of an elf-fan.

A grey or fire elf wizard would get the feel without the dead class levels and with better spells.

Tempest Fennac
2009-05-03, 03:00 AM
Thanks for explaining. I know the extra BAB wouldn't help that much, but I'd have thought the extra skill points would be useful to a Wizard who wants extra knowledge (considering how long the Fenneckin race I suggested live for, the idea of one becoming a Ruathar is kind of ironic:smalltongue:).

Josh the Aspie
2009-05-03, 03:55 AM
Well first off, I haven't decided on if I am playing an elf or not for sure.

Also, Ruthar has specific allowances for elves becoming Ruthar. Those that perform a great service to elves of a different kingdom, or those that are a part of adventuring group that earns the title can qualify. There are also several benefits which are granted. You get a free item, you get a special spell like ability that has the effect of marking your particular relation to, or recognition within, the elven community. You also get low light vision (or enhanced low light vision), +2 3 certain checks, +1 bonus to hit and saves when outside at night, as well. It also gives +2 to bab over 3 levels, 2 good save bonuses, access to search as a class skill (which I might want, due to other class abilities later on, regarding magical wards). And the skill level is 4+int. And yes, it also gives full caster progression, and d6 hit dice.

So it's actually got several advantages compared to empty levels of wizard that would do nothing but up the abilities of my familiar. Getting better abilities instead of those, though, would be reasonable.

As for abjurant champion, I was looking at it because it was in theme with seven veil initiate.

And yes, any class can enter based on tech specs, if you simply max a single skill (your choice), which most folks do.

Also, I'm away from the book containing Abjurant Champion, but I was reading some summaries and articles on it online, and some people were saying that it required you to specialize into abjuration if you hadn't already done so. Apparently they were talking out their rear.

Talic
2009-05-03, 04:01 AM
I'm a fan of:

Wizard (Focused Specialist - Transmutation) 15 / Archmage 5.

Simple, brutally effective.

Banning? Evocation, enchantment, necromancy.

Keld Denar
2009-05-03, 11:35 AM
Conjouration is about the only school other than Transmutation to go Focused Specialist. I'm playing a FS Conjourer right now, and I STILL don't have enough spell slots to prep all of the useful Conjourations that I want. The only other school to go Focused Specialist in is Illusion, but only really if you are going into the Shadowcraft Mage PrC from Races of Stone (and are a gnome).

There are lots of fun PrCs to go into as a wizard. As mentioned, Master Specialist is almost required for most Specialist or Focused Specialists, especially if you are planning on going into Archmage at some point.

Divine Oracle (CDivine) into Loremaster (DMG) is pretty nice. DO is enterable at level 6, and requires one dead feat that is also required for LM. Then, after only about 3 levels of LM, you get a bonus feat to make it back. So....no real loss of a feat, and you get a bunch of neat abilities like Pseudo-Evasion, access to a bunch of clerical divinations, and Loremaster actually has Use Magic Device as a class skill. That alone is worth all the prereqs you (don't) have to pay.

Josh the Aspie
2009-05-03, 02:14 PM
The Divine Oracle / Lore master path does seem like a very interesting one... but I recently played an archivist in a high level game that went archivist, so I'd like to do something different. The initiate of the 7 fold veil is definitely interesting, which is one of the reasons I was drawn to it.

This is absolutely my first time actually being able to play the arcane character, if the game comes off, because I started the thread calling for members saying I reeeally wanted to play the arcane character. Otherwise, everyone else always grabbed the arcanist first, followed by rogue or bash-stick, followed by the other, while I was still debating between character concepts, and no matter what I wanted to play, really, I wound up taking the healer because it really -is- a necessary role... either that, or some other character architype that had some healing as a secondary feature.

I'm not sure what my favorite school is going to be, and which schools I'd be comfortable giving up, because I've never actually had ACCESS to the arcane magic in these schools.

Kurald Galain
2009-05-04, 06:09 AM
I'm a fan of:

Wizard (Focused Specialist - Transmutation) 15 / Archmage 5.

That's cool.

Personally I'd recommend Wizard (Focused Specialist: Conjurer) 3 / Master Specialist 4 / Your Favorite Prestige Class Here / Archmage 5.

Banning evocation, abjuration and your pick of enchantment or necromancy. This is assuming you have a cleric or druid to pick up Dispel Magic.

Josh the Aspie
2009-05-05, 09:43 PM
Hello all.

I'd like to thank you for all of your input thus far.

Unfortunately, some assumptions about the campaign seem to have been made. The campaign, as it is looking to form up, is not going to be fast-play, all-combat. There may well be several multi-day social encounters, investigations, or other intrigue.

Also, since this is my first time playing any arcane caster other than playing a few levels of war-mage (in a campaign where the decision to max all PC and NPC HP was made AFTER I made that already sub-optimal choice, oy)... well, I don't know what schools I would be comfortable getting rid of. I've come down on the side of preferring to play a generalist. This of course means that I'll be playing an elven generalist (substitute level at level 1 involved).

I realize some of you likely feel that this will be very sub-optimal, but does anyone have any suggestions for prestige classes to play? The world involved will not have heavy influences from FR, so FR prestige classes are probably not the best option.

I do like Initiate of the Seven Fold Veil, but some have already advised against it, if I am playing a generalist.

Does anyone else have anything they might suggest? Be it stat choices (other than get int incredibly high, I am aware), or prestige classes, or feat combinations?

Flickerdart
2009-05-05, 09:45 PM
Incantatrix and Archmage are always staples. Really, anything that has full casting is fair game.

Josh the Aspie
2009-05-05, 09:49 PM
It was my understanding that Incanatrix is a Forgotten Realms prestige class... Archmage DOES seem like a really good one, though.

I've heard that Knowledge Devotion is a good feat to go with.

Any particular ways to reduce Metamagic costs?

If there is time for them to be used, are there any item creation feats that are particularly useful?

Tempest Fennac
2009-05-06, 01:29 AM
What did you think of the Domain Wizard variant which I mentioned? I thought it looked better then the Elven Generalist due to getting a bonus spell slot for every spell level you know. As far as non-combat spells go, you may want to keep Illusion and Enchantment. Is there going to be a Cleric in the party? If there is, Abjuration could be a good choice of barred school. (If versatility is important, Conjuration and Transmutation are excellent schools.)

Incidentally, what did you think of the Fenneckin race I suggested?

Myrmex
2009-05-06, 01:33 AM
If you play elf without chaos shuffle, a few levels of abjurant champion is worth it. Combat casting is useful most of the time in early levels, and casting dispel magic as a swift action is just amazing.

Justin B.
2009-05-06, 02:00 AM
I would advise against giving up Abjuratation, unless absolutely necessary, no matter what path you choose. Since you seem dead-set on generalizing, this may not be an issue, however, may I suggest you specialize in Divination?

You've already said there will be a great deal of intrigue and social encounters, and there is always a solid Divination spell you can fill that extra slot with at every level. The school you would ban for this would definately be Evocation. If you choose to go focused specialist (again, in an intrigue campaign, Divination is a solid choice) the next would be Necromancy.

However, another very solid choice for the type of campaign you're dealing with would be Enchantment. An enchantment specialist with evocation and necromancy banned would be potent for you. If you go focused specialist in this case, then I would suggest banning Abjuration next. (However, if given the choice, I would go regular old specialist before banning Abjuration.)

Either one of these specialists benefit greatly from the Fatespinner PrC, which I believe is found in the Complete Adventurer or Complete Scoundrel, for a few modest skillpoints and a not-so-terrible feat, you get the ability to significantly augment your save DCs and some other fun abilities. Very flavorful, very powerful for the type of game you're dealing with.

Good luck.

Tempest Fennac
2009-05-06, 02:23 AM
According to page 42 of http://crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Classes-Prestige.pdf , which also contains the first 2 out of 5 Fatespinner levels, the class is in Complete Arcane.

Elminster1
2009-05-06, 11:50 PM
For the most part, Domain Generalist variant from Unearthed Arcana is blatantly superior to Specialist in virtually every aspect. Theres no justifiable reason not to take it, from a game mechanics perspective. You get an Arcane Domain, cast all the domain spells at +1 caster level, and get to add them to your Spellbook when the appropriate caster level has been attained, for free. You have everything to gain. It even gets more ridiculous when you realize you can sacrifice the Domain spells slots to power the Archmages High Arcana abilites (if you go that route, and lets face, why wouldn't you?)

Just make sure you take feats relative to the Domain you selected, and your character should be just fine. I'm currently playing a Domain Transmuter, with the Otherwordly Feat, for some truly broken Polymorphing fun. But, thats another story.

So, basically, there's no reason not to take the Domain wizard variant. Treantmonk (the Legendary author of "Guide to being God" wizard thread for 3.5, can be quoted as saying about Domain wizard, "If your DM is stupid enough to allow you to take this, then he's the moron. If he allows it, and you don't take it, then your the moron.")

Josh the Aspie
2009-05-07, 12:32 AM
Update: I am going to be the DM of the group, and will get to make a huge amount of the decisions. This is however, a responsibility. I am going to at least make an attempt to avoid the over-whelming power that stereotypically comes with a DM PC, and just stick to the overwhelming power that stereotypically comes with a wizard.

First of all, the Domain Wizard is a variant, and it it definitely improves the power of the Wizard, without having any down side. That's not exactly kosher, given the huge power of the wizard. How can I really justify saying 'no' to my players on similarly unreasonably powerful alterations, in a group with mixed access to resources, if I take advantage of things like this? The Focused Specialist variant is in the same boat, though I'd argue it's more of a fix to what the specialist should have been in the first place.

I'm not going to try to nerf myself here, but neither am I willing to be the kind of DM that brings things into the campaign for the sole reason of making my character more powerful.

Nor can I bug the DM to let stuff in, because I'll just tell myself no. :P

Also, to be perfectly frank, I don't like Forgotten Realms as a setting, and I don't intend to include any more of it than I have too.

Anyway, the fennic race was interesting, but I'd only introduce it in a near-desert area, and I don't want to put a first level party through a desert environment just yet, especially not since, while discussing the campaign, they've shown a clear preference for a city, or forest/plains town setup.

Ug. I know I am being somewhat difficult to help here, and I apologize.

As for the diviner suggestion on the specialist wizard, that is an interesting possibility, especially as it only requires banning one spell school.

One reason that I am resistant to the idea of specializing in this type of campaign though, is that a campaign with a touch slower of a pace actually shifts the advantage away from the Specialist, and towards the Generalist, from anything I can tell... due to the simple fact that the generalist can, if given a bit of time, access any spell. Optimizing for a dungeon delve is going to be entirely counter-productive for the style of play that I am trying to encourage. Both in the area of results, and in the area of what message it would send to the players.

Also, another issue. There will be a spell-thief in the party. Any experienced folk know how this might affect the wizard?

Godskook
2009-05-07, 01:05 AM
Wait, a faux diviner is ok, but a FS is broken? Pots and kettles, man. If I ever played a diviner, I'd suck it up and bar the 3 schools like everyone else. I mean, read what the Giant says about it:

http://www.giantitp.com/articles/STcFi6l45eoAbaxiYPn.html

Tempest Fennac
2009-05-07, 01:13 AM
I see what you mean about Fenneckin. Regarding power levels and available resources, could players who have access to less sourcebooks borrow them, and if they lack computers, could you lend them yours so they can look at Crystal Keep? (That provides a lot of additional information, but it's useless for PrCs due to only going up to level 2 for most of them). Spellthieves could easily take spells from you without hurting you if you let them, and this could be useful when you need to get off more then 1 spell in the opening round.

Josh the Aspie
2009-05-07, 10:39 PM
Generally speaking, Divination specialization is far more suitable for an NPC than a PC. It was one of the worst gyps out there to be a diviner before they made that concession. And at what point did I mention that I would play a "Faux" diviner if I played a diviner at all?

Also, there are a lot of people out there that argue that playing a specialist is reward enough on it's own. In a hack and slash, or fast play game, this is very likely true. The variant triples the number of bonus spell slots, while only requiring you to sacrifice a single additional school, so yes, this is a huge additional increase, and is a huge increase in their power (counted by spell slots), with a relatively minimal additional sacrifice in flexibility in what spells they know.

This also does not fully solve the basic problem of the specialist, where in they are more defined by what schools they -lack- than what schools they specialize in (as the above 'faux diviner' example illustrates). I much prefer the Master Specialist prestige class to the Focused specialist, since it helps define the caster by what class they -are- a specialist in. And if I -were- to play a specialist, I would snap that class up as being one of the best theme-classes out there.


----------------------

This is a PbP game, so sharing my physical books is rarely an option. I will, however, suggest crystal keep as a resource for those that want it.

The main problem with a low level non-focused wizard is their low number of spells, not the opportunity to be able to spam them.

We are also going to have a duskblade, and at least one divine caster, so that opens up the possible spell stealing targets. Stealing a healing spell actually -helps- the cleric, in case the cleric goes down and the spell thief doesn't.

Tempest Fennac
2009-05-08, 01:19 AM
The Spellthief sounds like he's definitly be useful here. http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=00e335f1b6d3a915c0205de27cc583 43&topic=1109.0 contains links to a few evtra classes (saldy, it doesn't give enough detail about Totemists or Warblade's special abilities for them to be a practical option). http://www.devinweb.com/spells.htm contains basic spell information as well (other parts of the site have information on Invocations and abilities from other non-core classes too).

Godskook
2009-05-08, 05:58 AM
And at what point did I mention that I would play a "Faux" diviner if I played a diviner at all?

By name, you didn't. Just sounds like one if you're noting the extra school as a feature.


The variant triples the number of bonus spell slots, while only requiring you to sacrifice a single additional school, so yes, this is a huge additional increase, and is a huge increase in their power (counted by spell slots), with a relatively minimal additional sacrifice in flexibility in what spells they know.

You don't get 3 'extra' slots, you get 2 'extra' slot and exchange on general slot for a third school slot. That difference distinctly decreases your versatility.


This also does not fully solve the basic problem of the specialist, where in they are more defined by what schools they -lack- than what schools they specialize in (as the above 'faux diviner' example illustrates). I much prefer the Master Specialist prestige class to the Focused specialist, since it helps define the caster by what class they -are- a specialist in. And if I -were- to play a specialist, I would snap that class up as being one of the best theme-classes out there.

Do you know that FS and MS aren't mutually exclusive?

Elminster1
2009-05-08, 01:11 PM
I'm not really understanding you. You want the extra spells available from specialization. People introduced Domain Generalist variant, Specialist and Focused Specialist, as class alternatives.

Divination specialization isn't just for NPC's, where would you get that idea anyway? Why, because Divination isn't "combat" oriented? If your in a heavy combat campaign, and you need the extra spell slots, play a Specialist or Focused Specialist, or even better, the Domain variant. Just choose whatever school of magic suits you best, for whatever combat role you play. Why is this so difficult?

Personally, if your not going pick up the Master Specialist Prestige class, or some Prestige class oriented towards a specific school of magic (Shadwocraft Mage), etc, why just not be a Domain Generalist, and get all the extra casting you want, all the perks, no need to ban schools of magic, so you keep ALL the versatility, for free? Or even the Elven Generalist substitution levels. I mean, you'd have to offer a viable answer as to why you wouldn't at this point. Power and or mechanics wise, it makes no sense whatsoever.

Josh the Aspie
2009-05-09, 10:06 PM
By name, you didn't. Just sounds like one if you're noting the extra school as a feature.

Nor did I at any point, even suggest that what I was going to abuse what you linked above. What it "sounded like" to you was complete inference. This is similar to how I have inferred a condescending tone in your posts, that has gotten worse in the post I am responding to. As this may be an incorrect inference on my part, I am going to keep my response civil.


You don't get 3 'extra' slots, you get 2 'extra' slot and exchange on general slot for a third school slot. That difference distinctly decreases your versatility.

If you read what I said above, I said that you get "tripple" the bonus slots for only "one additional" banned school. You go from 1 bonus slot per level to 3. That is indeed triple the number you would otherwise have had. You have also sacrifice one additional slot. In the above case I used 2 comparisons. One of which used multiplication by a factor, and the other of which used addition. And I did note that there was a decrease in flexibility.

To clarify, the cost to benefit ratio in giving up 2 schools to get 1 bonus slot per level, and giving up 1 bonus slot to get 2 bonus slots per level is a difference of a factor of 4. This is a significant difference in the amount of power gained for the corresponding loss in flexibility, when comparing the transition from generalist wizard to specialist wizard, and the transition from specialist wizard to focused specialist.

And yes I am aware that the end trade off rate is 1 to 1.


Do you know that FS and MS aren't mutually exclusive?

Yes, I do.

Josh the Aspie
2009-05-09, 10:07 PM
The Spellthief sounds like he's definitly be useful here. http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=00e335f1b6d3a915c0205de27cc583 43&topic=1109.0 contains links to a few evtra classes (saldy, it doesn't give enough detail about Totemists or Warblade's special abilities for them to be a practical option). http://www.devinweb.com/spells.htm contains basic spell information as well (other parts of the site have information on Invocations and abilities from other non-core classes too).

Thank you for the additional references Tempest. I have already shown Crystal Keep to a few of my players, and it has helped them to legally access resources they did not otherwise have access too. You have been of great assistance. My thanks.

Goatman_Ted
2009-05-09, 10:22 PM
To clarify, the cost to benefit ratio in giving up 2 schools to get 1 bonus slot per level, and giving up 1 bonus slot to get 2 bonus slots per level is a difference of a factor of 4. This is a significant difference in the amount of power gained for the corresponding loss in flexibility, when comparing the transition from generalist wizard to specialist wizard, and the transition from specialist wizard to focused specialist.
I can't tell if you're serious...

If you are, Generalist to specialist loses 2 schools and gives nearly free reign of spell schools within the remaining 6 schools. So long as 1/5-7 of your daily spells is from your chosen school, you're fine.

Going from Specialist to Focused Specialist loses 1 school, but goes much further than that in constraining your spell selection. Now 3/6-8 daily spells comes from your selected school. With repetitious and infrequently-cast specializations like Divination or Enchantment, it's an enormous restriction. Also consider the two schools you've dropped already; covering for lost effects starts to be a problem.

...

Anyway, I like the balance that happened with Wizards' different styles of specialization between Domains, Basic Specialization and Focused Specialization. None is a clear winner.

Josh the Aspie
2009-05-09, 10:45 PM
Divination specialization isn't just for NPC's, where would you get that idea anyway? Why, because Divination isn't "combat" oriented?

I've extracted the above line to respond to it specifically. This was a statement I made with less thought and precision than I should have, while fatigued late at night.

What I meant to refer to was that in 3.0, according to my recollection, there were incredibly few divination spells. Since then they moved Universal spells into the school, and added more spells to the list, it has become a much more reasonable class to specialize in, if you are going to specialize at all.

Further, a diviner specialist is a great NPC for giving the PCs clues, and continues to be.


Im not really understanding you. You want the extra spells available from specialization. People introduced Domain Generalist variant, Specialist and Focused Specialist, as class alternatives.

If your in a heavy combat campaign, and you need the extra spell slots, play a Specialist or Focused Specialist, or even better, the Domain variant. Just choose whatever school of magic suits you best, for whatever combat role you play. Why is this so difficult?

Personally, if your not going pick up the Master Specialist Prestige class, or some Prestige class oriented towards a specific school of magic (Shadwocraft Mage), etc, why just not be a Domain Generalist, and get all the extra casting you want, all the perks, no need to ban schools of magic, so you keep ALL the versatility, for free? Or even the Elven Generalist substitution levels. I mean, you'd have to offer a viable answer as to why you wouldn't at this point. Power and or mechanics wise, it makes no sense whatsoever.

Short summary:
Near the beginning of the thread, I was debating between specializing, and going generalist. I hadn't even picked out a race. Since then I read several threads comparing different types of wizard. All of them specifically said to ban the schools of magic that you don't think you'll use as much, and gave recommendations on which ones to choose. Well, given that I've never played a generalist wizard before, I wasn't comfortable with this.

Further, several people just kept posting builds they used, without discussing the process of specializing in depth, trying to help me make the decision on the schools, or anything of that sort. Any comments about the wizard prestige class I was thinking of taking were actually fairly derogatory.

I have, since then, settled on the idea of making a generalist, unless anyone had a good reason why I shouldn't, given the type of campaign. One person suggested a divination specialist as a possibility. I looked at it, considered it, and said it was a possibility, in part, due to the fact that I wouldn't have to ban any more than one school, and that it fit the non-hack and slash campaign style I was going for. As soon as I did that, someone came into the thread, derailed it, and started bashing the fact that I was even considering that as a part of my decision making process.

As for why I am not considering domain specialist, it is precisely because it is a variant that boosts power with absolutely no down side, out of a source book that I haven't decided to use anything out of. I am the DM, I am already playing the wizard. I am both a player, and the watcher of players, I must thus watch myself even more than any others.

I am, however, looking at the elven generalist as a possibility.

Elminster1
2009-05-09, 11:47 PM
Ok, that some better insight to your dilemma in making a choice. If you haven't really played a wizard before, Generalist is best, so you get an idea of what the class entails.

I only suggested Domain Generalist because you were considering Elven Generalist substitution levels. Elven Generalist doesn't have any real drawbacks either after level 1, so it's fairly powerful, and blatantly better than plain Generalist.

My suggestion is go Generalist, either way, keep all your schools of magic available, and try spells from each school. All magic has it's uses.

Godskook
2009-05-10, 01:01 AM
What it "sounded like" to you was complete inference. This is similar to how I have inferred a condescending tone in your posts, that has gotten worse in the post I am responding to. As this may be an incorrect inference on my part, I am going to keep my response civil.

I never have a condescending tone. I could elaborate, but that would only derail your thread further. I'll discuss it in PM if you want, but for now, Adieu.

Josh the Aspie
2009-05-10, 01:56 AM
I never have a condescending tone. I could elaborate, but that would only derail your thread further. I'll discuss it in PM if you want, but for now, Adieu.

No, I'll take you at your word. Like I said, it was something I inferred, which may or may not have been there, and I recognize the difference between inference and implication.

Josh the Aspie
2009-05-10, 01:58 AM
Ok, that some better insight to your dilemma in making a choice. If you haven't really played a wizard before, Generalist is best, so you get an idea of what the class entails.

I only suggested Domain Generalist because you were considering Elven Generalist substitution levels. Elven Generalist doesn't have any real drawbacks either after level 1, so it's fairly powerful, and blatantly better than plain Generalist.

My suggestion is go Generalist, either way, keep all your schools of magic available, and try spells from each school. All magic has it's uses.

Yes, but all it gives is an extra spell per level, which a wizard can find and copy out of the spell books of other friendly wizards. It's also not a variant rule, but a racial substitution level, which tends to give an advantage to the classes most associated with a race anyway, as a way to encourage that race / class combination, so I'm more comfortable with going Elven Generalist. I do thank you for the suggestion though.

Josh the Aspie
2009-05-10, 02:07 AM
Point buy is not yet firmed up, but it's currently looking like we may go 36 point point buy, with a CR opponent adjustment to keep things challenging (I will count the party as 1 level higher for the purpose of determining creature challenges, and calculating XP. I will need to keep treasure values in mind and make adjustments to keep rough wealth by level). We've got 2 hybrid class players.

I am looking at going Grey Elf / Elf Generalist with very high int, and a lot of knowledge skills, potentially taking the Knowledge Devotion feat in a few levels.

I've ruled that the players need to either go with a default starting package or roll for gold.

Does anyone have any suggestions for an eventual build for such a wizard? I know that a lot of people out there really like focused specialists, but this first time at least, I am going generalist.

I am also looking at some potential starting spells. Ones I'm considering for my first level list are sleep, color spray, grease, magic missile, and potentially mage armor and / or shield. Possibly Protection from Evil, Fog, Comprehend Languages, Identify, and/or charm.

Any particular feat suggestions?

Goatman_Ted
2009-05-10, 02:14 AM
I am looking at going Grey Elf / Elf Generalist with very high int, and a lot of knowledge skills, potentially taking the Knowledge Devotion feat in a few levels.

Knowledge Devotion doesn't really do Wizards any good. Unless they go the Fighter/Wizard route.

As far as feat and spell suggestions, they mostly depend on what you're going to do and which (if any) prestige classes you want to take.

Except Quicken Spell. All real spellcasters are required to have it.
(Except for the exceptions)

Josh the Aspie
2009-05-10, 02:58 AM
It doesn't even help on ray type spells?

And I'm looking at potentially going towards the Initiate of Seven Veils. If I was going to be a specialist, I'd definitely go Abjuration focused specialist first, but since I'm not.... I know I need spell focus, and greater spell focus, as well as skill focus (spellcraft).

Given that those will take up 3 of my feat slots, that's a huge cost to getting there, I know.

Other prestige classes I have considered including are Archmage, Mage of the Arcane Order, Ruithar (star friend rather than elf friend), and Abjurant Champion.

Divine Oracle might be a nice add in, but I'd have to get a second separate skill focus to get in.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-05-10, 10:45 PM
It doesn't even help on ray type spells?It does, but by mid levels the only time you'll miss those KD won't help with(miss chance). Touch AC is one of the few defenses that usually goes down as you level.
And I'm looking at potentially going towards the Initiate of Seven Veils. If I was going to be a specialist, I'd definitely go Abjuration focused specialist first, but since I'm not.... I know I need spell focus, and greater spell focus, as well as skill focus (spellcraft).Reconsider specializing in that case. Master Specialist(Abjuration) is enterable at level 4, and gets you 2 of those feats, with the only PreReq being the third. It's great for Iot7FV and Archmages for that reason.

Goatman_Ted
2009-05-10, 11:52 PM
I'll be honest. I don't thin Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil is all its cracked up to be.

Wizards already have defenses and walls. Losing 3 feats for 4 new spells per day doesn't strike me as the best move. They're flashy, but they're walls. Their effects don't matter if the bad guys don't touch them.

I much prefer Mage of the Arcane Order, Archmage or Fatespinner for a generalist caster. Even disregarding the prerequisites, their abilities outshine the Initiate's as far as I can see.

Josh the Aspie
2009-05-14, 10:54 PM
Well, at the moment, our Spellthief switched out to an altered Beguiler.

We also have a Duskblade, and a Druid. We may or may not also have a bard.

We're using 36 pointbuy.

I'm going to play a Grey Elf Generalist Wizard.

Int 20, Dex 16, Con 12 (all after racial adjustments)

I'm debating on the last 3 stats, and my first feat.

Josh the Aspie
2009-05-18, 08:19 PM
Hey all.

Update:

I've gotten the character mostly made.
Race: Grey Elf
Class: Elven Generalist Wizard
Attributes:
Str 6
Dex 16
Con 12
Int 20
Wis 10
Cha 14

Any advice on the Wis / Cha balance?

I've also selected my spells (advice on improving the selection is welcome)
1st level - Alarm
1st level - Color Spray
1st level - Enlarge Person
1st level - Grease
1st level - Identify
1st level - Mage Armor
1st level - Magic Missile
1st level - Ray of Enfeeblement
1st level - Shield

I'm still attempting to pick the prestige classes I will go towards eventually.

I am considering Fatespinner (not the last level), Ruitar, Initiate of the Seven Veils, Loremaster, Archmage, or Ultimate Magus, possibly Abjurant Champion.

Eldariel
2009-05-18, 08:29 PM
Hey all.

Update:

I've gotten the character mostly made.
Race: Grey Elf
Class: Elven Generalist Wizard
Attributes:
Str 6
Dex 16
Con 12
Int 20
Wis 10
Cha 14

Any advice on the Wis / Cha balance?

I've also selected my spells (advice on improving the selection is welcome)
1st level - Alarm
1st level - Color Spray
1st level - Enlarge Person
1st level - Grease
1st level - Identify
1st level - Mage Armor
1st level - Magic Missile
1st level - Ray of Enfeeblement
1st level - Shield

I'm still attempting to pick the prestige classes I will go towards eventually.

I am considering Fatespinner (not the last level), Ruitar, Initiate of the Seven Veils, Loremaster, Archmage, or Ultimate Magus, possibly Abjurant Champion.

Sleep! No, seriously, toss Sleep in there. Medium range "mass save or be out cold" is really good for level 1. Best offensive level 1 spell. I'd also use Disguise Self and Silent Image, but that's just me. And I wouldn't learn Shield & Mage Armor just yet; you won't be memorizing them for a couple of levels anyways.

As far as prestige classes, either some generic Fatespinner/Mindbender/Archmage-build with some filler levels (probably Loremaster), or a focused (using Master Specialist and specializing in Abjuration) Initiate are solid choices. I'd go to the Fatespinner as it's more "freeform" and doesn't require as much dedication.


With regards to Wis/Cha balance, that's pretty good especially if you can access Leadership or plan on Planar Binding things early on. Otherwise, more Wis gets you better Spot (handy with the racial Elven bonus) and better Will-save. 14/10 is a good split either way.


As far as your skills go (you have 7), I suggest maxing Spellcraft (duh), Concentration (duh), Hide, Move Silently and 3 Knowledges (including Knowledge: Arcane, obv). On low levels, Hide and Move Silently really help stay alive, especially with an Elf and the Dex-bonuses. Consider dropping a Knowledge, or Move Silently, for Tumble.

Also, alternative to maxing 3 Knowledge, you could max two Knowledges and spread the last points around to 4 separate Knowledges to be able to make trained checks in them. Throwing 1 point to Forgery and Decipher Script (basically any Trained Only Int-based skills) is a decent idea too. You're very good at beating those checks with just your stat modifiers. Picking some Speak Language is a decent idea too.

But generally the party will need you as a Knowledge monkey, so spending a decent amount of points in a variety of Knowledges (striving to max ones used commonly for monster recognition) is a worthwhile effort.

Josh the Aspie
2009-05-18, 08:50 PM
Sleep! No, seriously, toss Sleep in there. Medium range "mass save or be out cold" is really good for level 1. Best offensive level 1 spell. I'd also use Disguise Self and Silent Image, but that's just me. And I wouldn't learn Shield & Mage Armor just yet; you won't be memorizing them for a couple of levels anyways.

I'm an elven specialist that gets to cast 4 first level spells per day, and mage armor is an hour / level spell. If going into a dungeon, or getting into a sticky situation where he has enough warning to buff, I think I can afford one of his spells per day. We have a changer beguiler, as well, so I don't want to step on his toes as for Silent Image or Disguise Self. I was -seriously- considering the Silent Image spell. I have, however, swapped out Shield for Sleep. I had thought it was only a 1 target spell. This is much better.

As far as prestige classes, either some generic Fatespinner/Mindbender/Archmage-build with some filler levels (probably Loremaster), or a focused (using Master Specialist and specializing in Abjuration) Initiate are solid choices. I'd go to the Fatespinner as it's more "freeform" and doesn't require as much dedication.



With regards to Wis/Cha balance, that's pretty good especially if you can access Leadership or plan on Planar Binding things early on. Otherwise, more Wis gets you better Spot (handy with the racial Elven bonus) and better Will-save. 14/10 is a good split either way.

As far as your skills go (you have 7), I suggest maxing Spellcraft (duh), Concentration (duh), Hide, Move Silently and 3 Knowledges (including Knowledge: Arcane, obv). On low levels, Hide and Move Silently really help stay alive, especially with an Elf and the Dex-bonuses. Consider dropping a Knowledge, or Move Silently, for Tumble.

Also, alternative to maxing 3 Knowledge, you could max two Knowledges and spread the last points around to 4 separate Knowledges to be able to make trained checks in them. Throwing 1 point to Forgery and Decipher Script (basically any Trained Only Int-based skills) is a decent idea too. You're very good at beating those checks with just your stat modifiers. Picking some Speak Language is a decent idea too.

But generally the party will need you as a Knowledge monkey, so spending a decent amount of points in a variety of Knowledges (striving to max ones used commonly for monster recognition) is a worthwhile effort.

I am considering accessing leadership. Oh, as a little side note, I (as DM) am looking at changing mage of the arcane order into an organization instead of a prestige class. It fits much better as one anyway.

I'm going with the big 3 for sure (Concentration, Knowledge Arcana, and Spellcraft)

I am debating between Search (elven wizard class skill), decipher script, and a bunch of knowledge skills. We have a bard, a druid, a ranger, and a beguiler in the group (as well as a duskblade) so it's likely we'll have some general knowledge-monkey spread around.

I like Seven Fold Veil, but I do not want to specialize, as this is my first time playing a wizard, and I want to get a better feel for playing them before running a specialist.

Not familiar with Mind Bender.

Eldariel
2009-05-18, 09:12 PM
No more than 1 point in Decipher Script. The skill really sucks. Only reason to place that 1 point in it is that it's Int-based and a class skill and trained-only, so if you happen to need it, you've got it; 1 point ain't killing you.

Forgery is much more useful frankly; it's opposed by an opposed Forgery-check so it'll pass almost everywhere with just your Int-modifiers (unless you run into hardcore specialist forgers; but the ones you'd want to give forgeries to, such as commanders, kings and such are unlike to be able to tell them apart.).


But yeah, Search isn't probably very useful since Beguiler is probably maxing it anyways (to find traps and all), and is just as Int-based as you. If anything, I'd go with Hide, Move Silently & Tumble all cross-class. Really handy for staying alive on low levels. Although placing 1 point in all Knowledges (you're a Wizard, you should have some knowledge on everything) for an Int-based character is never a bad plan.


Mindbender is in Complete Arcane. Sucks otherwise, but level 1 gives you casting and Telepathy up to 100'. Really handy, especially if you have Mindsight [Lords of Madness], but even without it. Telepathy is good. Requires non-good alignment though :(


EDIT: To extrapolate on Decipher Script, it's almost never used and many times it would be useful, you can use Read Magic instead. And you have so many languages you'll almost never run into any of the languages printed in the books you can't read. And Comprehend Language solves those few times, let alone Tongues...

Josh the Aspie
2009-05-18, 09:20 PM
Good aligned, so no can do.

However, oh my goodness. I just came up with an idea for a generalist wizard theme that would be so much fun to play. o.o

The MATHOMANCER!

Fate Spinner and Geometer.

^_^ Math is our friend.

Of course, I'm sure this build would suck to some degree...

Josh the Aspie
2009-05-19, 03:20 PM
I've decided to go with "precocious apprentice" for my first level feat, and take alter self as my spell.

I had a discussion with the assistant GM and he sees no real problem with precocious apprentice counting as 'Skill Focus: Spellcraft" for pre-requisite purposes.

So, I do believe I'm good to go. (gear list not included here).