V's Soul: the trial of ownership

[shadzar]

:vaarsuvius: Though I had been granted and used the soul splices offered to me I cannot be held to my part of the contract for my soul was not mine to give due to the vows given to my mate at our wedding. Since my soul was not my own to offer, I cannot be expected to pay the part in which I had agreed, because I own nothing of which to pay with and my soul has been the property of my mate for many years now.

Ok if this has been suggested before sorry. But what do people think of that scenario? Another case for Celia to win with another giant loophole in logic?

[Studoku]

Ok if this has been suggested before sorry. But what do people think of that scenario? Another case for Celia to win with another giant loophole in logic?

I know this is probably deliberate, but:

Simpsons did it.

[The Pilgrim]

The two lawyers would show up and take away V for violating a certain popular animated sitcom author's intelectual property.

Then the long-ago interrupted fight between V and Zz'dtri (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0065.html) would, at last, conclude.

[shadzar]

I know this is probably deliberate, but:

Simpsons did it.

:smallconfused: I haven't watched the Simpsons in over a decade, so didn't know that. But!, if it has been done before and worked, seems all the more reason to do it again! If it has been done to death, then it means it must be done again!

:smallannoyed: I just keep regurgitating old ideas then it seems.

[The Pilgrim]

:smallconfused: I haven't watched the Simpsons in over a decade, so didn't know that. But!, if it has been done before and worked, seems all the more reason to do it again! If it has been done to death, then it means it must be done again!

:smallannoyed: I just keep regurgitating old ideas then it seems.

The specific episode is "Treehouse of Horror IV", fifth season. First aired in 1993.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treehouse_of_Horror_IV

So even if you haven't watched The Simpsons for over a decade, that episode is over 15 years old. ;)

[shadzar]

The specific episode is "Treehouse of Horror IV", fifth season. First aired in 1993.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treehouse_of_Horror_IV

So even if you haven't watched The Simpsons for over a decade, that episode is over 15 years old. ;)

Never saw it even then. But I want to now that I know Flanders got decapitated in it. :belkar:

[Undead Prince]

:vaarsuvius: Though I had been granted and used the soul splices offered to me I cannot be held to my part of the contract for my soul was not mine to give due to the vows given to my mate at our wedding. Since my soul was not my own to offer, I cannot be expected to pay the part in which I had agreed, because I own nothing of which to pay with and my soul has been the property of my mate for many years now.

He would still be defaulting on his obligation under the contract, which would entail civil liability at the cost of his other assets (body?)

Moreover, since he had entered the contract while knowing that its subject, his soul, was already legal property of another, he had committed fraud, which is a crime.

And Pit Fiend justice is, let's just say, not very forgiving of swindlers.


Another case for Celia to win with another giant loophole in logic?

The Pit Fiends would just take her in as V's accomplice. They are the masters of evil legalese.

[shadzar]

Objection! While V does not have the right to grant soul ownership to the fiend in accordance with the contract, the body of V was already in the service of the fiends via the atrocities committed while having the power of the spliced souls, and therefore must been seen as time-served, and therefore cannot seek further payment beyond the terms of the initial contract that stated time would be equal to that in which the splices remained under the control of the splices. So even if the splices themselves had no control of V's actions, the fact that such power caused my client additional mental anguish and stress has already worked in favor of the plaintiffs in that the actions performed were along the lines of anything they could have asked for anyway from V when the time to collect the soul payment occurred.

:smalltongue:

[Jade_Tarem]

I would venture to say that V will end up paying the price one way or another. There's a devil on Team Temptation, and (as has already been mentioned) there is really very little chance that even V, Celia, and Mr. Jones and Mr. Rodriguez combined could outmaneuver him in a court of Hell. I wouldn't be surprised if the very act of trying to find a loophole carried some kind of penalty. A 10,000 year old entity of Law and Evil is not going to be trumped by a legal undergraduate who hasn't yet won a fair trial or completed a successful negotiation.* Add this lack of experience to Celia's arrant naivete and oblivious nature, and those tricksy guys would eat her alive.


*For anyone about to cite her amazing courtroom "prowess" or "talent," I feel compelled to point out that the trial she "won" was rigged, and that the contract she negotiated with the Theives Guild contained terms that it was impossible for Haley to meet. Her record is 0-2 and getting worse.

[David Argall]

A spouse's claim on the partner's soul is both limited, and voidable.

One problem with this argument is that in claiming V's soul belongs to K, then that means K's soul belongs to V, and thus may be seized to pay for debts caused by V's fraudulent signing of the contract.

There is a general assumption that souls can be sold, making any such general claim like this null and void.

[shadzar]

Not that I should be helping the other side, but K did tell V to stay away from them, which could mean or maybe not that s/he had given up claims to V's soul.

Well in a court of Lawfull, then maybe Roy would be brought in, and a Deva would be brought in as witness. Wherein Belkar was said to have declined in evil actions while in the custody of Roy, it could be said that without Roy that V was under undo stres already, and the devil (Quag? the one talking to V when the dragon came and got the fiends there) V was under emotional distress and was not of the right mind to be able to make decisions such as the conditions of the aforementioned soul.

Therein V was not able to contract under the law within being of sound mind and sound body. So the contract in and of itself is forfeit. For a contract to be upheld "Lawfully" all parties of the contract must be of sound mind in order to contract.

(IE V pleads insanity to agreeing with the contract in the first place.)

[Dagren]

It was suggested recently that Xykon might soul trap V (assuming he survives the first round, that is), and I wondered if we might see the fiends suing him to recover their "property". I agree that we should really see the lawyers again, I don't think they have appeared since the Order's trial when they first came to Azure City, have they? I certainly think that the soul splice is the perfect way to bring them into the story again.

[shadzar]

Well the lawyer's were once on the order's side and once against them. Right now their record is even. Whose side would hire the lawyers this time if they got involved? :smallconfused:

[Jade_Tarem]

Well in a court of Lawfull, then maybe Roy would be brought in, and a Deva would be brought in as witness. Wherein Belkar was said to have declined in evil actions while in the custody of Roy, it could be said that without Roy that V was under undo stres already, and the devil (Quag? the one talking to V when the dragon came and got the fiends there) V was under emotional distress and was not of the right mind to be able to make decisions such as the conditions of the aforementioned soul.

Therein V was not able to contract under the law within being of sound mind and sound body. So the contract in and of itself is forfeit. For a contract to be upheld "Lawfully" all parties of the contract must be of sound mind in order to contract.

(IE V pleads insanity to agreeing with the contract in the first place.)

That's fine, as long as temporary insanity = not guilty as far as breaking contracts in the OOTS setting is concerned. The infernal court, or a legal institution on (in?) Mechanus, may not recognize stress and duress as a valid excuse.

Also, any case made that revolves around V feeling compelled to do this will crumble once it is revealed that there was a viable alternative - suggested by the tempters themselves!

Also, the thing with Belkar not committing as many evil acts while in Roy's custody excused Roy's decision to associate and command an evil character, not Belkar's actions as his own person. Belkar is still on the hook. At best, the Astral Deva will be able to prove that it isn't Roy's fault that V went a little nuts.

[shadzar]

Why would it not be tried on the prime material plane where the fiends came to V, and all of the contract details were discussed and agreed upon.

I don't think any other court outside of the Prime Material Plane would have jurisdiction over something that happens there. So they can't just go plane hopping to find a court that might be more in favor of the fiends position. I would call for a mistrial in a heartbeat! ;)

[Dr. Cthulwho]

I certainly think that the soul splice is the perfect way to bring them into the story again.

It would have a weird sort of karma to it, what with V killing Kubota in order to avoid a lengthy trial involving "those two idiot lawyers".

As to the original idea... so if V argued his soul is actually the property of someone else might that not mean

[Jade_Tarem]

Why would it not be tried on the prime material plane where the fiends came to V, and all of the contract details were discussed and agreed upon.

I don't think any other court outside of the Prime Material Plane would have jurisdiction over something that happens there. So they can't just go plane hopping to find a court that might be more in favor of the fiends position. I would call for a mistrial in a heartbeat! ;)

And which court on the material plane would see this through? The contract (assuming that what V did even counts as signing contract, read on for alternatives) was signed/agreed upon on an uncharted island in the middle of nowhere (or perhaps somewhere, anywhere, or someplace else :smalltongue: ) and by most understandings this means that there is *no* relevent legal force binding V to the contract.

Unfortunately, denizens of the outer planes don't always see it that way. If V attempts to obfuscate the issue by voiding the contract, trying to incite some kind of bizzare jurisdictional conflict, or simply breaking it, the Tempters may force the issue by getting... ugly. On top of that, the Kolaryuts (A kind of Inevitable) of Mechanus take exception to those who break contracts of this magnitude, and may come after V on principle.

Also, the act of touching the Orb completed some kind of modified, houseruled spell. If the repayment is part of the spell, it doesn't matter how many lawyers V can bring to bear, there will be no escaping the price of power.

Alternatively, for all we know the red orb is some modified version of a Contract of Nepthas, and V's touch has made the contract less of a legally binding document and more of a fact of life, drawing down a horrible curse for any attempt to weasel out of it. No trial, no lawyers, no legalese... just punishment, and perhaps obliteration.

Besides, getting out of a contract like this makes for poor drama, or else would eat up more of the story than it deserves. V made a Faustian bargain, and in doing so will almost certainly meet the fate of Dr. Faustus. Granted, V's soul will be temporarily leased rather than stolen and locked in Hell forever (we hope), but the principle is the same.

[RMS Oceanic]

Well the lawyer's were once on the order's side and once against them. Right now their record is even. Whose side would hire the lawyers this time if they got involved? :smallconfused:

They don't take sides. They take sworn affidavits. :smallsmile:

[Killer Angel]

Moreover, since he had entered the contract while knowing that its subject, his soul, was already legal property of another, he had committed fraud, which is a crime.

And Pit Fiend justice is, let's just say, not very forgiving of swindlers.

.


And, if I remember correct Fiendish codex II, if a soul wants to discuss the legality of a faustian pact, there's a sort of Trial in hell, with a Pit fiend (expert in legalese contract) as a Judge.
Good luck with that! :smallamused: