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holywhippet
2009-05-03, 10:16 PM
I've started playing in a 2nd edition campaign. We have a human thief, a dwarvern fighter, a half-elf druid and I'm playing a half-elf ranger. Anyway on our first outing my ranger went down after some kobolds caught in an entangle spell (cast by the druid) threw their hand axes at me since they had nobody they could reach to melee. I turned to the druid looking for healing - he rolled a 1 which stabilised me but didn't get me back into postive HP. I ask about what spells he has memorised, he tells me he has (or had) the following spells: entangle, sanctuary and cure light wounds.

I was surprised by his second spell - that's really only useful at higher levels IMO when you want to move around the battlefield casting healing spells without any problems. At first level you can really only use it to flee from a TPK.

I told him as much and expected he'd change his selection for the next session. So the next session starts, we'd had a night of rest and I was back to 1 HP. So I limp up to him looking for healing - he rolls a 3 this time putting me back to 4 HP. So I ask for another casting and he tells me he can't - he went back to the same 3 spells as the first session so he only has one single CLW again. I bug him about it a bit, then later when we settle down for the night I start to lecture him once again. He decides I'm talking in character and casts sanctuary so I'll leave him alone. Thankfully he decides on 2 CLW and 1 entangle for his spells in the morning.

His attitude was partially thinking his character was more than a healing dispensor and partially not seeing the point in memorising the same spell more than once from what he told me. I told him he should think in terms of percentages - he'll spend X% of the time healing wounds so he should have enough healing spells to cover that.

Hadrian_Emrys
2009-05-03, 10:52 PM
I tend to just take disputes into character play. ex: I was playing with a group running 4th ed gobliniod characters that belonged to a faction that was trying to give monsterous races some decent PR. Well, one of the players kept trying to convince the rest of us that our characters should keep the human slaves we found for ourselves instead of freeing them. He would hear of no other course of action. So... my laser cleric cut off his in-character rant by shooting his character into the negatives before finishing his conversation with the now freed slaves. He then healed the difficult player's character in order to scold him for nearly setting the cause back by who knows what amount. Sometimes diplomacy calls for aggressive tactics. :smalltongue:

ondonaflash
2009-05-03, 10:58 PM
I tend to just take disputes into character play. ex: I was playing with a group running 4th ed gobliniod characters that belonged to a faction that was trying to give monsterous races some decent PR. Well, one of the players kept trying to convince the rest of us that our characters should keep the human slaves we found for ourselves instead of freeing them. He would hear of no other course of action. So... my laser cleric cut off his in-character rant by shooting his character into the negatives before finishing his conversation with the now freed slaves. He then healed the difficult player's character in order to scold him for nearly setting the cause back by who knows what amount. Sometimes diplomacy calls for aggressive tactics. :smalltongue:

Shotgun diplomacy means never having to say "Excuse my friend"

valadil
2009-05-03, 11:18 PM
I can't blame the guy for not wanting to play a healing dispenser. There's no fun in that. He probably could pick a spell more useful than sanctuary though.

Have you considered buying him a wand of cure light wounds? Maybe offer to split it with him. Then he can heal you and make room for trying out other spells.

TheCountAlucard
2009-05-03, 11:35 PM
Have you considered buying him a wand of cure light wounds? Maybe offer to split it with him. Then he can heal you and make room for trying out other spells.This. No offense, OP, but being harassed about what you do with your character is very irritating; when I was playing D&D Thursday, one of the other players was griping at my choice to play a Diviner with Enchantment as his banned school, and honestly, I just wanted to punch that other player in the throat.

Zeful
2009-05-04, 12:29 AM
I've started playing in a 2nd edition campaign. We have a human thief, a dwarvern fighter, a half-elf druid and I'm playing a half-elf ranger. Anyway on our first outing my ranger went down after some kobolds caught in an entangle spell (cast by the druid) threw their hand axes at me since they had nobody they could reach to melee. I turned to the druid looking for healing - he rolled a 1 which stabilised me but didn't get me back into postive HP. I ask about what spells he has memorised, he tells me he has (or had) the following spells: entangle, sanctuary and cure light wounds.

I was surprised by his second spell - that's really only useful at higher levels IMO when you want to move around the battlefield casting healing spells without any problems. At first level you can really only use it to flee from a TPK.

I told him as much and expected he'd change his selection for the next session. So the next session starts, we'd had a night of rest and I was back to 1 HP. So I limp up to him looking for healing - he rolls a 3 this time putting me back to 4 HP. So I ask for another casting and he tells me he can't - he went back to the same 3 spells as the first session so he only has one single CLW again. I bug him about it a bit, then later when we settle down for the night I start to lecture him once again. He decides I'm talking in character and casts sanctuary so I'll leave him alone. Thankfully he decides on 2 CLW and 1 entangle for his spells in the morning.

His attitude was partially thinking his character was more than a healing dispensor and partially not seeing the point in memorising the same spell more than once from what he told me. I told him he should think in terms of percentages - he'll spend X% of the time healing wounds so he should have enough healing spells to cover that.

Your not going to get anywhere nagging him. He's already ignoring your "advice", trying to push him further might lead him to completely cut you off from healing, after all if you know so much, you can do it yourself. Your best bet it to accept it until a TPK does occur, then point out that he could have prevented it by choosing spells to better suit the situation. The attitude that you're taking will not help you.

Innis Cabal
2009-05-04, 01:06 AM
This. No offense, OP, but being harassed about what you do with your character is very irritating; when I was playing D&D Thursday, one of the other players was griping at my choice to play a Diviner with Enchantment as his banned school, and honestly, I just wanted to punch that other player in the throat.

This. Its not your character, you don't have a place to tell him how to play it. Thats all there is to it. Play cleric next time

Kylarra
2009-05-04, 01:26 AM
I'd honestly be pretty pissed if someone kept ragging on me on how I should play my character, particularly if it only seemed to be for their benefit at the time. Get him a wand of CLW and get over yourself.

Juggernaut1981
2009-05-04, 02:03 AM
OP:

#1 Stump up the Gold, buy him a freakin Wand of CLW then let the Druid choose some other fruity and potentially helpful spell like... Summon Monster I or similar.

#2 WTF ARE YOU DOING CHARGING INTO MELEE AS A 2E HALF-ELF RANGER??? Let the Dwarf sprint at them (over the next 3 rounds until he gets over the 30-fett of distance)....

Khanderas
2009-05-04, 02:39 AM
Go with the wand.

Quietus
2009-05-04, 04:14 AM
I'll join the call of "Don't tell him how to play his character", and "Buy a wand of CLW and have him use it on you".

Myou
2009-05-04, 10:13 AM
I'll join the call of "Don't tell him how to play his character", and "Buy a wand of CLW and have him use it on you".

+1

Arbitrary text.

streakster
2009-05-04, 10:27 AM
Going with the crowd here. He is not a living medpack for your benefit. be thankful for the healing he gives you, and find some way to deal with it yourself if you want more.

Xuincherguixe
2009-05-04, 10:30 AM
No, but largely because I don't believe it's an effective strategy.

DeathQuaker
2009-05-04, 10:41 AM
I am saying this with the best of helpful intentions:

If you were a player in my group, I'd probably first ask you to stop telling me how to play my character, ask the GM to tell you to leave me alone, or tear out your eyeballs. I certainly wouldn't appreciate what you're doing, and your nagging would only piss me off and make me determined that I was right in playing my character as I was.

Fact is, I wouldn't be surprised if after the first time he memorized Sanctuary because he thought it might be a neat idea, he continued to do so just to piss you off.

I have played a lot of D&D in various editions, and every time there was some player who's convinced he knows how to play everyone's character better than they do (has happened all too often), it only ended in both players being extremely frustrated and the entire campaign falling apart (or at least becoming completely unfun, which is the opposite of what you want to achieve when you are playing a game).

In the case that the nagged player is experienced in D&D, he probably has legitimate reasons for doing what he is doing, even if it's not transparent to you. (In fact, canny player can in fact put Sanctuary to good use. I recall using it to help get past some hostile guards once when I didn't want to immediately get into a fight. I don't know the scenario you're playing through, but the player might have an insight as to why it might actually be useful)

In the case that the player is not experienced in D&D and he is actually choosing poorly, let him learn from his mistakes. A lot of people can tell you a fire is hot, but most folks won't figure it out until they touch it themselves. Yes, your character might not get healed as often. Too bad. Bottom line is--it's not actually any of your freaking business to know what is on your buddy's spell list.

Now, if you play supportively, maybe by example he'll learn to play supportively. Keep lecturing him, and heck, he'll probably refuse to heal you when you actually do need it because you've irritated him so badly (and obviously, you've irritated him, since he's already used the spell IC to keep you off his back).

Maybe for you, the game is about percentages. For some people, it's about other things, like chilling with your friends and having some fun and letting people play the kinds of heroes they want to play. Try it, you might like it. :smallsmile:

streakster
2009-05-04, 10:50 AM
Going with the crowd here. He is not a living medpack for your benefit. be thankful for the healing he gives you, and find some way to deal with it yourself if you want more.

Tsotha-lanti
2009-05-04, 11:12 AM
I think my reaction to your kind of advice would be to create a S&P druid and neglect to buy access to necromancy (pretty sure cure spells were under that, yeah?).

And sanctuary is a fine spell if your campaign isn't just a string of combat encounters where you're expected to slaughter everything.

Starbuck_II
2009-05-04, 11:13 AM
I am saying this with the best of helpful intentions:

If you were a player in my group, I'd probably first ask you to stop telling me how to play my character, ask the GM to tell you to leave me alone, or tear out your eyeballs. I certainly wouldn't appreciate what you're doing, and your nagging would only piss me off and make me determined that I was right in playing my character as I was.

I certainly hope you didn't mean literally tear out his eyes. I have good authority that it would be painful, bloody, and bloody painful as well.

Plus you don't know where that eye has been. You might get swine flu.

But if you meant you'd get really pissed off I agree.



Fact is, I wouldn't be surprised if after the first time he memorized Sanctuary because he thought it might be a neat idea, he continued to do so just to piss you off.

I guess it is a will save and warriors don't have lots of that. But I don't know never found much use of it.



Now, if you play supportively, maybe by example he'll learn to play supportively. Keep lecturing him, and heck, he'll probably refuse to heal you when you actually do need it because you've irritated him so badly (and obviously, you've irritated him, since he's already used the spell IC to keep you off his back).

Agreed, I think the OP was trying to be helpful, but his Cha isn't as high as his character so he comes off rude.
Cut him some slack. How did his soul know Cha wasn't a dump stat :smallbiggrin:

Hadrian_Emrys
2009-05-04, 01:39 PM
Shotgun diplomacy means never having to say "Excuse my friend"

:smallamused: I figured that we had to show the people we were more than just talk. :smalltongue: Being willing to harm your own in defense of the innocent (of another race even) is a pretty significant statement to be made by a "monster" right?

horseboy
2009-05-04, 03:44 PM
I can't blame the guy for not wanting to play a healing dispenser. There's no fun in that. He probably could pick a spell more useful than sanctuary though.

Have you considered buying him a wand of cure light wounds? Maybe offer to split it with him. Then he can heal you and make room for trying out other spells.
It's 2nd edition. there is no buying wands of cure light wounds. There is only hoping the DM throws them in as loot. So, the OP should nag the DM into throwing some in.

Zhalath
2009-05-04, 04:35 PM
Nagging tends to not get things done. Rather, it tends to make people not want to do things. Why listen to the negative, irritating person?
Also, sanctuary is a pretty handy low level power, protecting yourself against those durn warriors charging you.
IF you're having issues with getting hurt, maybe stay out of combat a little more.

Myou
2009-05-04, 04:53 PM
It's 2nd edition. there is no buying wands of cure light wounds. There is only hoping the DM throws them in as loot. So, the OP should nag the DM into throwing some in.

That seems rather contradictory. :smallconfused:

If it can be dropped as loot it means someone has it.

If someone has it you can find them and buy it from them.

Do you maybe mean that there are no rules for buying such items?

holywhippet
2009-05-04, 04:55 PM
OP:

#1 Stump up the Gold, buy him a freakin Wand of CLW then let the Druid choose some other fruity and potentially helpful spell like... Summon Monster I or similar.

#2 WTF ARE YOU DOING CHARGING INTO MELEE AS A 2E HALF-ELF RANGER??? Let the Dwarf sprint at them (over the next 3 rounds until he gets over the 30-fett of distance)....

1) We are still only level 1 and playing in a low magic campaign world. Buying a wand of anything is unlikely to ever be allowed and won't be affordable for quite some time.

2) For that particular combat the DM had rolled the weather up as being very windy. The kobolds had partial concealment behind some buildings so I figured my odds to hit with a bow were pretty low. I was set up for two weapon fighting so I figured melee would be my best bet.

Yes, the other player should be free to play as he wishes. But If he only has one CLW a day we are pretty much going to have to retreat from each dungeon after any single fight where we take a bit of damage. The more CLW spells, the longer we can last - and the less odds of a TPK. I was told the other player had taken a druid before I picked a ranger. (Clerics and paladins are out because of the campaign setting. Well, technically they out out for the PCs since they belong to a culture we'd consider to be our enemies). If I'd known he wasn't planning on being a healer I'd have gone for being a fighter/druid or a ranger/druid.

If he's chosen to be the only class that's good at healing, he should doing the healing. If I chose to be the party thief for example, I would expect the other players to be annoyed if I decided to wear plate mail and refuse to ever be stealthy and never search for traps or pick locks.

streakster
2009-05-04, 05:25 PM
If he's chosen to be the only class that's good at healing, he should doing the healing. If I chose to be the party thief for example, I would expect the other players to be annoyed if I decided to wear plate mail and refuse to ever be stealthy and never search for traps or pick locks.

Why? I've seen builds for rogues in the games I play that more or less sound like that.

Regardless, it sounds like simple miscommunication - you thought he'd be healing. He won't be, so'll you'll need to find a way to cover.

And no, he doesn't need to heal just because he can. If I build a nice blaster spellcaster, I'm not obligated to prepare buff spells for other people. Even if that would make combat easier.

AgentPaper
2009-05-04, 05:37 PM
I'd say talk with him, see if he wants to be the healer type or something else. If he wants to heal, feel free to give him advice. If he doesn't want to be the healer, talk to the DM about changing your character to a dual-class ranger/druid. Could be explained away rather easily as saying he got even more in tune with nature than he used to, or you could just ret-con it.

Premier
2009-05-04, 05:42 PM
And all that still doesn't give you the right to keep naggin him about it. You might try to discuss it politely outside the game to see why he doesn't want to carry more, but nagging is a no-no. Especially if has already listened to your arguments once and still decided against it.

Especially since there are other ways you can cope with the problem:

- Play a second druid yourself.
- Pick up the Healing NWP. Ask your DM to make it cheaper to obtain to counteract the lack of clerics.
- Hire some local 0 level farmboys, give them shields and spears, have them fight with you. They're a great and cost-effective force multiplier and damage soaker for a 1st level party.
- Same with some NPC adventurers who even have proper class levels.
- Resign to the fact that you're 1st level characters, and that you will have to get out of the dungeon and back to town for a rest often. It's the way of things.
- Be a smarter player, and help others be smarter, too. Have better combat tactics. Be more careful. Scout more effectively. Know when to avoid a fight. Get hurt less.

OverWilliam
2009-05-04, 06:43 PM
I had a whole game decentigrate because of a bout of this, me being on the "being nagged" side. I, quite simply, wasn't keen on the idea of being told how to play my character and made my opinion on that point known instead of being the bigger man and taking it quietly, like I must commend your friend for doing. In retrospect, it would've been better for the game if I hadn't said anything, but I had quite thoroughly thought through the situation and was intentionally playing sub-optimally for character reasons. I tried to explain myself, but by then the damage had been done and it fell apart shortly thereafter.

In your situation, I think you should adopt one of the cardinal rules of Real Life diplomacy; recognize that this is his choice to make. You have good reasons for your position, so don't ruin the validity of your point by stomping all over his toes while you make it. So many legitimate, logical arguments are completely ignored by their intended recipients because it was presented abrasively. If it's for the good of the party there's no reason you can't explain what you think, without being bossy about it, and then leave it up to his decision. If you made your point and he agrees then it works out for both of you; if you make your point and he still wants to do things the way he wants to do them, then there's nothing you can do-- he's made his decision and you should leave it alone.

Either way, it sounds like you've got a great group to play with, hope you have fun. :smallsmile:

holywhippet
2009-05-04, 07:19 PM
My impression was that his decision was based partially on inexperience. His brother is the DM, and I get the impression he'd only ever run games for him as a single player. So sanctuary might have seemed a good idea because if things went badly he could cast it and run. For a group game though, that's not really as much of an option. He can cast and run if absolutely required - but he really should do his best to make sure the entire party gets out alive. I suspect he understands this a bit better after our second session. The dwarf was injured after falling down a pit trap so the druid used his first CLW to patch him up. After out final battle for the session he was down to 0 HP so his second CLW got him back on his feet so we could get the heck out of there.

On another note. Does entangle require plants of some sort in order to work? We found the kobold's village but it's underground in a dirt/rock cave. Aside from some possible roots under the ground I don't see any way entangle could work.

Starbuck_II
2009-05-04, 07:22 PM
On another note. Does entangle require plants of some sort in order to work? We found the kobold's village but it's underground in a dirt/rock cave. Aside from some possible roots under the ground I don't see any way entangle could work.

Yes, plant/roots both work. The plants grow/roots grow to entangle foes.

Zaq
2009-05-04, 07:54 PM
If he's chosen to be the only class that's good at healing, he should doing the healing. If I chose to be the party thief for example, I would expect the other players to be annoyed if I decided to wear plate mail and refuse to ever be stealthy and never search for traps or pick locks.

In other words: Get in your box and stay there!

Choosing to be "the only class that's good at healing" is very different from choosing to be "the healer." It's entirely possible to play a game without a designated healer. Yeah, it's harder in 2e than in 3.5, but it's not impossible. Working in a group means working with what you have, and if no one wants to be the healmonkey, well, you work without one. Yes, this means your strategies have to change. Frontal assaults are less viable. Getting caught off guard hurts more. That doesn't matter. There's more to D&D than the Iconic Party, and you can be effective even if you have to radically change your mindset or your tactics. What can you do instead? Fight guerrilla-style. Set up traps and ambushes. Fight running battles. Use trickery to separate your foes into smaller and more manageable groups. Pay attention to your escape routes and don't be afraid to retreat. Use your brains as much as your dice.

Now, if this player had said "don't worry, I'll take care of healing," that's a very different matter. If someone accepts a role, then it's fair to expect them to fulfill the duties of that role. However, it is NOT a good idea to try to shove someone into a role just because you think it's better. You're expecting the druid to heal you; he's expecting to play the character he wants to play, and he didn't sign up to be a heal-bot. You don't just inherently deserve a healer, and if no one wants to play one, you have no right to demand they do so. Sure, there's less room for error; sure, things might go more smoothly with a healer... but the game is playable nevertheless. Sure, if you keep using your strategies unchanged, pretending there will always be a human HP boost ready to kiss it and make it better even though there isn't, you'll have problems. That's not the druid's fault. That's your fault for not adapting to your situations.

I mean, it's a tired argument, but... if you feel the group needs a healer, why don't you make a cleric yourself? You don't want to play a healer? Well, neither does the druid, and why should you get to dictate who gets to play what?

Edit: Fixed punctuation error.

Triaxx
2009-05-04, 08:10 PM
First, ask him why he chose those spells. He might have a good reason, or have mis-interpreted the description.

Second, consider working with his spells, and using a bow. He's got entangle, and you've got a dwarf.

Third, suck it up, and buy some potions. If it's not a bargin basement cash campaign, they shouldn't be too expensive.

holywhippet
2009-05-04, 08:15 PM
Third, suck it up, and buy some potions. If it's not a bargin basement cash campaign, they shouldn't be too expensive.

Can't - low magic campaign world. More or less. From what the DM has said, actual clerics who can cast healing spells are rare (and are from the "enemy" race). Humans wizards are also very rare, only the elves have a decent number. Buying healing potions just isn't an option.

Flickerdart
2009-05-04, 08:26 PM
Can't - low magic campaign world. More or less. From what the DM has said, actual clerics who can cast healing spells are rare (and are from the "enemy" race). Humans wizards are also very rare, only the elves have a decent number. Buying healing potions just isn't an option.
Find and redeem or enslave a cleric of the other team. Should prove a fun side quest.

woodenbandman
2009-05-04, 10:53 PM
This. No offense, OP, but being harassed about what you do with your character is very irritating; when I was playing D&D Thursday, one of the other players was griping at my choice to play a Diviner with Enchantment as his banned school, and honestly, I just wanted to punch that other player in the throat.

-"So how much damage does your new wizard cohort do?"
-"Oh, she's more of a Battlefield Control, helper type."
-"...but how much damage does she do?"

TheCountAlucard
2009-05-04, 11:03 PM
-"So how much damage does your new wizard cohort do?"
-"Oh, she's more of a Battlefield Control, helper type."
-"...but how much damage does she do?"The fact that the DM wouldn't let me purchase the arcane focus required for scrying made things a little worse...

Juggernaut1981
2009-05-05, 01:19 AM
So it's a low magic world. To paraphrase my brother and a few of the other posters in this thread (my brother isn't posting here btw)

Drink a cup of cement princess and harden up.


If it's such a dangerous environment, and so lacking in magical healing...

WHAT IN GARY GYGAX'S DIVINE D20s WERE YOU DOING RUSHING SOLO INTO MELEE IN 2E D&D AS A RANGER????

As a GM, one of the lessons I love to teach EVERY party is this: Tactics make Wands of CLW irrelevant to low level parties. A low level party that starts a combat with "[insert fighter here] Charges across the open area at the Kobolds"... usually quickly finishes with "Make Save X here. Oh look, you got mashed by a trap and never complete the charge". *ding* 1 Kill Kobolds, 0 Kills PCs...

Seriously, learn to out-think your enemies and if you're a dull as a box of ball-pane hammers fighter... try listening to the allegedly intelligent party members in character. If there is a wise character amongst you, maybe they should ask "Why are those Kobolds waiting at the bottom of the hill, at the end of the path where we can kind of see them but it would be hard to get at them without running down the hill...." and if there is no moment of "Something doesn't feel right" then clearly you have never watched a movie involving a black man with a large powerful weapon walking down the corridor of a spaceship [insert Tentacles Flying From Inside Wall (TM)].

Nagging the other players while I was GM would result in me taking the person you are nagging aside, asking a few questions, seeing how they feel about it and what they plan to have their character do. If I think their character isn't a god awful joke that should die for D&D Darwinian Evolutionary Purposes (i.e. die so you can make a better character)... then I'll encourage them to play it. If they have made a good candidate for D&D Darwinian Evolution, I'll help them make something that will do a better job of surviving.

Triaxx
2009-05-05, 06:29 AM
Explain carefully that if the DM doesn't put down some non-magical healing potions somewhere, that the spell that's going to be cast on him is 'PHB missile'.

I'd like to find the IDIOT, who decided that healing potions are magical, and stuff herbs down his throat.

I sincerely hope however, that you haven't ruined a player by convincing him he's nothing but a healbot for your character.

horseboy
2009-05-05, 06:32 AM
That seems rather contradictory. :smallconfused: Not in the slightest. They are rare and wonderful relics of a bygone era. Like Damascus steel, Greek fire, or if one of the two guys that know the formula for Coke were to die.
1st & 2nd are quite adamant about not letting players buy magic items because it "...would require literally wagon loads of gold. More gold than was in all the kingdom," to buy.

Yakk
2009-05-05, 11:22 AM
Just because as a Druid the Druid can choose to heal, doesn't mean the Druid should spend most of the Druids resources on healing.

You chose not to be able to heal at character creation. The Druid chose to not be able to heal when the Druid picked the kind of spells the Druid prays for.

Both of you chose not to heal -- well, actually, the Druid chose to heal once per day, until you repeatedly nagged the Druid into submission. So now you are nagging the Druid to heal because you didn't want to.

Just because you picked a class with healing spells on the spell list, doesn't mean the player has to spend most of your spells on healing spells. That way leads "nobody wants to play a character class with healing spells": healing spells help other players get the spotlight, while actual spells that do things help you get the spot light.

As other posters have mentioned, cease charging into combat and expecting someone else to pay the resources required to fix your recklessness.

Check for traps. Set up ambushes. Lure the Kobolds into ambushes, instead of running into theirs. Recruit allies to help you fight -- a brance of archers and/or spearmen will make Kobolds less dangerous.

Engage in violence when you know you can win, or threats of violence rather than engaging in it. Fight when you have the advantage. Treat every blade swung at you as if it could kill you.

When told about a nest of Kobolds, treat it with trepidation.

Set up safe camps -- if you cannot get friends to follow you into the warrens, have them set up and defend a base camp you can retreat to.

Myou
2009-05-05, 11:35 AM
Not in the slightest. They are rare and wonderful relics of a bygone era. Like Damascus steel, Greek fire, or if one of the two guys that know the formula for Coke were to die.
1st & 2nd are quite adamant about not letting players buy magic items because it "...would require literally wagon loads of gold. More gold than was in all the kingdom," to buy.
Ahhh, I see.

If that's the case wouldn't PCs sell weak items like a wand of CLW when they actually found them, and thus gain vast sums of money?

Halaster
2009-05-05, 02:15 PM
Ahhh, I see.

If that's the case wouldn't PCs sell weak items like a wand of CLW when they actually found them, and thus gain vast sums of money?
Nope. There simply isn't anyone around with that kind of money. You may get lucky and someone wants to swap items, but as rare as they are, there is a one in a million chance to meet someone looking to get rid of the right kind of item.

D&D never made it that explicit, but some games (e. g. Rolemaster) that run on the same assumptions state that adventurers are pretty much the only people interested in this kind of magic at the kind of money it costs. A nobleman could simply hire a magical healer for a fraction of the money it would cost to have a wand made. Adventurers only need items because they can't take a dukes retinue into a dungeon.
So that leaves you with very few people to sell to and the rules simply define that there are few, if any, people to buy from.

In a way that makes more sense than 3(.5), where one would expect magic emporiums, towns having a lighting budget to spend on everburning torches and so on. It's fun, but it should result in a far more bizarre world than we are usually presented with by published material.

Myou
2009-05-05, 04:35 PM
Nope. There simply isn't anyone around with that kind of money. You may get lucky and someone wants to swap items, but as rare as they are, there is a one in a million chance to meet someone looking to get rid of the right kind of item.

D&D never made it that explicit, but some games (e. g. Rolemaster) that run on the same assumptions state that adventurers are pretty much the only people interested in this kind of magic at the kind of money it costs. A nobleman could simply hire a magical healer for a fraction of the money it would cost to have a wand made. Adventurers only need items because they can't take a dukes retinue into a dungeon.
So that leaves you with very few people to sell to and the rules simply define that there are few, if any, people to buy from.

In a way that makes more sense than 3(.5), where one would expect magic emporiums, towns having a lighting budget to spend on everburning torches and so on. It's fun, but it should result in a far more bizarre world than we are usually presented with by published material.

I think I prefer the 3.5 method. xP

It seems pretty silly to me that it's easy to get a person to cast a spell for you, but getting an object to do it is impossible.

To each his own.

holywhippet
2009-05-05, 10:06 PM
WHAT IN GARY GYGAX'S DIVINE D20s WERE YOU DOING RUSHING SOLO INTO MELEE IN 2E D&D AS A RANGER????


Why exactly is this a problem? The rest of the party were coming up behind me. The weather was windy so I didn't think that firing with my short bow would be a great idea given the penalties. I had studded leather armour - not the best, but it was all I could afford at that point.

Juggernaut1981
2009-05-05, 10:54 PM
Your entire view on the encounter (based on your decision process) is this:

Option a) Kill them from a long way away (with your bow) or
Option b) Kill them up close by running at them

What about other options...

Option c) Go around them. Avoid them.

Option d) Get to where you need to go by utilising the Druids Sanctuary spell and having him knock them out cold or tossing something nice and explosive at them from a much safer location.

Option e) Get the Kobolds move from where they are... maybe drawing them out one by one so you can kill them with less risk.

Option f) "To hell with it, sure I will find it hard to hit a barn from this distance but they can't chuck their axes at me from this far away... I'll either hit them or get them to move closer as they try to find the source of the arrows"

...[insert other ideas here]

My issue is that you know your Druid can't heal you very well and you took a course of action that had a strong chance of needing more healing than could be provided.

holywhippet
2009-05-06, 12:13 AM
Maybe I should outline the scenario a bit better. We'd arrive in a town and had just finished lunch at a local inn when an injured worker staggered in the door telling us kobolds were attacking a nearby farm. My ranger had them as a racial enemy so he took off immediately as soon as he got the directions from the innkeeper. The other party members followed (after putting on their armour).

The DM had rolled up rough weather for that day - it was quite windy and somewhat rainy too IIRC. When my ranger got near the farm, a pair of kobolds on either side of a building began firing at me with bows. Both missed. I figured that between the windy weather and the partial cover from the buildings that any arrows I fired woud have low odds of hitting. I charged one of the kobolds with for a melee attack. The other kobold bolted when one of the other party members approached. It went into the building and out poured some more kobolds who attacked us.

Evading the kobolds wasn't much of an option since they were holding the other farm residents. Approaching from a different angle might have worked - but even if we took the 2 kobolds by surprise we'd still have been fighting the others in close quarters when we went to clear they building they were in. Waiting around wasn't an options - innocent lives were at stake. I'm not even sure if I could have snuck up - it was daylight and at level 1 with studded leather I have 0% success for hide in shadows and move silently.

Baalthazaq
2009-05-06, 01:09 AM
Ugh, I have this same argument in Warcraft.

The argument starts as "If you've chosen to play Druid/Priest/Paladin, you should be doing the healing, because it's a healing class".

No. He could have picked a Hunter/Warlock/Mage/Rogue/Fighter/Whatever and gone with damage, but he didn't want to. He wanted to make a Druid that did X and he did that. End of story.

"But now we're down a healer" is just flat out wrong. He doesn't want to play a healer. He wouldn't have picked a healer if given the choice, he had the choice and he didn't. You have not lost anything.

Plus on the upside, when your character dies due to lack of healing, you can make the healer you want. :P

In this case it is slightly different as he is a partial healer, but that's fine. Roleplaying isn't entirely about build efficiency. Sanctuary could on occasion be the only thing that lets him get that CLW to you in an emergency situation, as opposed to just giving out one extra CLW between battles.

JadedDM
2009-05-06, 02:52 AM
holywhippet, I don't think it's wrong to offer advice to a less experienced player. The problem is that he chose to not follow your advice, and you continue to harass him about it. The fact that this is a low magic world AND clerics and paladins aren't playable says to me that the DM wants healing to be hard to come by anyway.


It seems pretty silly to me that it's easy to get a person to cast a spell for you, but getting an object to do it is impossible.

One must keep in mind that in 2E, a character must be level 9 (roughly) to be able to create magical potions or scrolls. Thus, they are very rare and expensive.

Juggernaut1981
2009-05-06, 07:29 PM
OP: After reading the more detailed descriptions, I have two main comments.

#1 Why, even though they are a racial enemy, did you rush off on your own? If they are your racial enemy you should know Kobolds are cowardly, fight in mobs and lay traps. All of these are good reasons not to go off on your own.

#2 Nobody takes a hostage without wanting something they can't get by other means. If they wanted to just steal, then they'd steal and maybe kill the farmer. If an intelligent being takes a hostage (and unintelligent beings generally don't) then there must be a reason. If there is a reason, there is a solution that won't involve you getting handed your ass by 25 kobolds.

(Note: If the DM set this up as a hostage situation without identifying why the Kobolds took hostages, then maybe your DM needs to think more about their encounters)

Triaxx
2009-05-06, 07:47 PM
You're level 1. Even with no penalties, you're probably going to hit one out of ten times. Tactics says you should have shot at them anyway. A) You might hit and kill one, or possibly two, depending on how they react. B) Kobolds aren't exactly the highest of AC creatures, the chances of hitting are still good. C) You're a member of an adventuring group, not a solo character.

However, 25 to four odds are still heavily against you.

Juggernaut: I say any DM that doesn't plan motivations for hostage taking deserves crispy hostages.

Matthew
2009-05-06, 08:55 PM
Sounds to me like a communication problem. The player in question may have a) not agreed with you, or b) forgot about your advice. Either way, he does not appear to be giving you a clear answer as to why he chose the spells that he did. It is fine for you to provide advice to another player, as long as it is advice he is free to accept or reject, and not an order. So, the question is "did he intentionally ignore your advice or did he forget about it?" If you can get an answer to that, and it is that he was not convinced by your advice, then you can either a) accept that he doesn't agree, or b) try to persuade him of the validity of your argument.

This is not really as topic that can be solved in this forum, it is an issue of communication between you and the other player.

As an aside, I recommend tagging your thread [AD&D/2e] (just edit the title of your first post). You probably will not get as many replies, but it helps with edition blindness. :smallbiggrin:

Another_Poet
2009-05-06, 11:27 PM
I'd like to find the IDIOT, who decided that healing potions are magical, and stuff herbs down his throat.

I'm an avid herbalist, and I have to say - there is no earthly herb that can close sword wounds in 6 seconds and leave a fresh, healthy patient feeling good. (In fact, any purely herbal treatment for sword wounds is foolhardy at best.) And I know some people think of hp's as stamina rather than actual wounds, but remember that the spell is called "cure light wounds" not "raise spirits lightly" or "refresh light exhaustion".

Sorry, but D&D style healing potions are magical for a reason.

(Though my favourite campaign setting, the Iron Kingdoms, offers some great mundane ointments to assist with healing - not great for the middle of combat, but between fights they are cheap and effective.)


or if one of the two guys that know the formula for Coke were to die.

The recipe for Coke:
1) Purchase bottle of Pepsi or other competing cola.
2) Remove label and soak bottle to remove glue. Dry thoroughly.
3) Apply Coca-Cola label.
4) ??????????? Do WHAT with a donkey!?!?!?!?!?!
5) Profit.

Yakk
2009-05-07, 10:40 AM
I'm commenting as I'm reading, not based off of future events.

Maybe I should outline the scenario a bit better. We'd arrive in a town and had just finished lunch at a local inn when an injured worker staggered in the door telling us kobolds were attacking a nearby farm. My ranger had them as a racial enemy so he took off immediately as soon as he got the directions from the innkeeper. The other party members followed (after putting on their armour). So your character acted semi-suicidally (rushing into combat without armor).

It is true that a slight delay could prove costly -- but being dead, or injured and less effective, because you aren't wearing armor would also prove costly.

(It is possibly you where already wearing armor -- in which case, you still ran off against an unknown force without immediate backup, or (apparently) a coordinated plan.)

The DM had rolled up rough weather for that day - it was quite windy and somewhat rainy too IIRC. When my ranger got near the farm, a pair of kobolds on either side of a building began firing at me with bows.This seems to indicate you approached the farm, alone, against an unknown number of Kobolds (but at least enough to be a raid, so a non-trivial number), without doing scouting or attempting to be sneaky.

It was even raining and windy -- perfect weather to be sneaky, as it reduces sight lines and generates movement that isn't you that makes it harder to spot the movement that is you.

You aren't a one-man super-hero as a low level 2e D&D ranger. And just because you dislike Kobolds doesn't mean you should run in blind.

It went into the building and out poured some more kobolds who attacked us.As should be expected. You attacked a raiding party -- you got a raiding party. You didn't attempt to gather more support, scout and figure out what they are up to, or ambush them.

Evading the kobolds wasn't much of an option since they were holding the other farm residents. Approaching from a different angle might have worked - but even if we took the 2 kobolds by surprise we'd still have been fighting the others in close quarters when we went to clear they building they were in.Bring more support in the first place. Or arrange to have more support come, and trick them into thinking they are besieged. Or attempt to negotiate with them.

Waiting around wasn't an options - innocent lives were at stake. I'm not even sure if I could have snuck up - it was daylight and at level 1 with studded leather I have 0% success for hide in shadows and move silently.
It wasn't "daylight": it was raining and windy. And probably overcast.

You could also have held bottlenecks to the farm and fought the Kobolds fewer at a time.

You could also scare the Kobolds off and harry them as they travel, offering to let some go in exchange for the lives of the innocents.

Drider
2009-05-07, 02:16 PM
I tend to just take disputes into character play. ex: I was playing with a group running 4th ed gobliniod characters that belonged to a faction that was trying to give monsterous races some decent PR. Well, one of the players kept trying to convince the rest of us that our characters should keep the human slaves we found for ourselves instead of freeing them. He would hear of no other course of action. So... my laser cleric cut off his in-character rant by shooting his character into the negatives before finishing his conversation with the now freed slaves. He then healed the difficult player's character in order to scold him for nearly setting the cause back by who knows what amount. Sometimes diplomacy calls for aggressive tactics. :smalltongue:

http://www.darthsanddroids.net/episodes/0002.html

TheFallenOne
2009-05-08, 06:25 AM
While I agree that it's not your place to tell another player how to play his character I think the OP does have a point, though admittedly he presented it rather unfavourably and approached the other player the wrong way.
He isn't demanding that the other guy changes his character concept like some are suggesting or even rebuild his character. All he wants is him preparing one more healing spell per day. Yeah, on first level one spell more or less is quite someting, but surely that Sanctuary spell isn't that defining for his character concept.

Think about it from the character perspective: They're rather fresh, one or two lucky arrows can drop any of them. When a character hits the negatives, his life depends on the ability of the others to heal him. So I can understand if a character gets upset when the only guy in the party who has any access to healing decides to prepare minimal healing spells in favour of Sanctuary. They're supposed to be a team after all.
Couple weeks ago, I played with my Dwarven scout in a party with a Sorceror and an Artificer. So I took the role of the frontline fighter without any discussion. Yeah, I complained(in-character) that I'm acutally a skirmisher, but somebody had to do it and I was the fittest for the job. If I played a ranged fighter with decent strenght I would have stashed my bow and take out sword and shield after some grumpling, even though my feats and stats were chosen for something else. And I think that is a way bigger sacrifice than changing a single spell per day into something that benefits the whole party

Kylarra
2009-05-08, 10:04 AM
The OP may have a good point from a metaperspective, but "nagging a player into submission" as per the title of this thread, rarely ends up well.

As for good intentions, road to hell and all that jazz. :smallwink: