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The Gilded Duke
2009-05-04, 04:44 AM
So I was reading through the Chameleon again and I noticed that if you picked the arcane focus you gained a caster level equal to your chameleon levels x2. With ten levels of chameleon you end up with a 20th level arcane caster, although they have access to at best 6th level spells.

This got me thinking and I did some checking. If you were to pick your first 10 levels as spell thief and then picked up the Master Spell thief feat, in addition to some other lovely abilities your spell thief levels stack with any class that grants arcane spells other then the spell thief.

With Spellthief 10 and Chameleon 10 you get an arcane caster level of 30. However you are still limited to just 6th level spells. Are there some 6th level spells of any arcane spell casting class that can benefit from being cast at CL 30? Are there any other class combinations that get a caster level this high before gear and feats?

The Gilded Duke
2009-05-04, 05:15 AM
It looks like a Chameleon could enter the Sublime Chord prestige class if it picked up bardic music from somewhere. The skills shouldn't be too hard, and Chameleon specifically gains the ability to cast arcane spells.

1 Bard / 4 Spellthief /5 Chameleon / 10 Sublime Chord

Normal casting level at the end is 24. Sublime Chord also can use bardic music to up caster level by as much as +4. The odd thing is that the Chameleon spells still function off of Intelligence while the Sublime Chord spells function off of Charisma.

From Bard and Sublime Chord levels you get 6 uses of Bardic Music.
Chameleon gives you up to 4th level int based spell casting with preperation.
Chameleon gives you a floating bonus feat and a floating +2 untyped stat boost.
Chameleon gives you 2/day turn undead, qualify for DMM?
Sublime Chord gives you 4th through 9th level spontaneous cha based casting.
Spell Theif lets you steal up to 9th level spells.
-

This build easily gets the 25 HD cap for shapechange allowing you to change yourself into a Gloom and other monsters. Are there any other spells up to 9th level that benefit from the high caster level? G. Dispel Magic is unfortunately capped at 20.

Yuki Akuma
2009-05-04, 05:22 AM
Why is it odd that the Chameleon's spells would function off of Intelligence and the Sublime Chord's off of Charisma?

Note that Sublime Chord can only learn Bard and Wizard/Sorcerer spells - the Chameleon can learn any arcane spell of 6th level or lower.

Otherwise, this isn't a bad idea really. You'd be going against the point of the Chameleon class, and would lose your Sublime Chord abilities any time you don't use Arcane Focus, but...

The Chameleon does qualify for Divine Metamagic, yes.

Talic
2009-05-04, 05:24 AM
If you can find a similar class for divine, the Holy Word line of spells can outright kill things if your Caster level is +10 above theirs.

The Gilded Duke
2009-05-04, 06:02 AM
I just find it weird that Sublime Chord can be entered by non bard spell casting. Not sure about whether it would be possible with divine. Is there another feat that stacks spell caster levels? Can a prestige class that advances spell casting (as opposed to giving a new progression) advance a class that has already finished its progression? Could it advance caster level?

It might be easier to try and get those spells on a wiz/sorceror list. Isn't there something in complete divine where you can cast spells on the domain lists of a god you worship?


Some Spells that take advantage:

Greater Draconic Ally only works up to 21 HD with Spell Compendium.

Animate Dead in a desecrated area lets you animate 4 HD per caster level worth of undead. Your caster levelx4 also determines the maximum amount of undead you can control.

A few skeletons and zombies:

Prismasaurus
Three Headed Sirrush
Tayellah
Thorciasid
Elder Titan
Uvuudaum
Vemiurge
Worm that Walks
Tarrasque


Are there any other spells that let you make templated undead? If a similar thing could be done with ghosts somehow...

Yuki Akuma
2009-05-04, 06:05 AM
Sublime Chord is its own spellcasting class. It's basically like multiclassing into some sort of super-Bard.

The Gilded Duke
2009-05-04, 06:37 AM
Didn't find any way to make ghosts. It looks like the domain spells is a sorcerer substitution ability.

I did find however the spells Awaken Undead and Undead Luitenant. Undead Luitenant allows you to control your caster levels worth more HD of undead. Awaken Undead costs some xp and makes a single undead intelligent, it regains any racial extraordinary abilities that it had. If somehow you killed the tarrasque or a three headed Sirrush being able to retain their extraordinary abilities as a skeleton would be amazing.

The Gilded Duke
2009-05-04, 06:44 AM
Would picking up Practiced Spell Caster at level 6 for Spell Thief, and then later picking up Master Spell Thief further boost the caster level? Practiced Spellcaster can't increase your caster level greater then your HD. Master Spellthief isn't restricted by your hit dice.

That would make it 28 CL before using any bardic music.

Jack_Simth
2009-05-04, 06:51 AM
If you can find a similar class for divine, the Holy Word line of spells can outright kill things if your Caster level is +10 above theirs.
The Chameleon can cast Divine spells as well, if the Chameleon focuses on that for the day. Additionally, at character level 15 (say... bard-5/Chameleon-10) they've got a Chameleon caster level of 20. With a Bead of Karma from a Strand of Prayer beads, and an Orange Prism Ioun Stone, they can have a caster level of 25 (ECL + 10) that way. It's just as well the the Chameleon doesn't get 7th level spells.


It looks like a Chameleon could enter the Sublime Chord prestige class if it picked up bardic music from somewhere.Catch: per the Chameleon (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20041210b&page=1)'s description

You can't use any abilities gained from your aptitude focus, ability boon, or mimic class feature abilities to qualify for a feat, prestige class, or other option. You can use your bonus feat to qualify for such options, but if you change the feat, you suffer the normal drawbacks for no longer meeting a prerequisite or requirement.
Sorry. No using Chameleon casting for qualifying for a PrC. Or using it to qualify for a feat - Master Spellthief requires 2nd level spells.

The Gilded Duke
2009-05-04, 07:04 AM
Hmm.. good catch on the can't using it to qualify.

Spellthief / Beholder Mage with master Spell Thief still works, but that prestige class is pretty bad.

The Gilded Duke
2009-05-04, 07:18 AM
10 Spellthief / 10 Chameleon still works, however you are limited to 6th level spells. 10th level spellthief is able to qualify for Master Spellthief by itself. So you lose the shapechange cheese, but can still do the things with animate dead.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-05-04, 07:53 AM
You don't even need Chameleon, a Bard 8/ Spellthief 1/ Mindbender 1/ Sublime Chord 10 easily gets an inflated caster level, and that's the low end of what's possible with Master Spellthief. Take a decent Ultimate Magus build, throw in one level of Spellthief for Master Spellthief, and its caster level more than doubles for all classes. I've never liked Chameleon just because it's always seemed intentionally mediocre to me, it can fill just about any role in a pinch but never as well as any class designed to fill that role, so why not just go with a more focused class (or a Cleric and be a better chameleon than the Chameleon) and have an overall better character.

Assume you do go with something like Spellthief 8/ Chameleon 10, which is the minimum Spellthief level to take Master Spellthief. You have 2nd level spells at level 9, when other classes have 5th level spells, and you get 6th level spells at level 17, when other characters will have 9th level spells. You may be able to get an increased caster level, but the best use of it would be Holy Word and similar spells and Master Spellthief can't boost a divine caster level. Let's say you instead go Spellthief 1/ Wizard 4/ Chameleon 10, with Practiced Spellcaster for both Spellthief and Wizard. Your arcane caster level will be 33 for all those classes, but you'll still be two spell levels behind every other primary spellcaster, and you'll never catch up because that's the highest level spells you'll get. That's of course assuming you can even consider Chameleon an arcane spellcasting class, which technically it isn't, it just gets to pretend to be when you pick that aptitude, so Master Spellthief shouldn't even count it in the first place.

Fishy
2009-05-04, 11:39 AM
Master Spellthief can't boost a divine caster level, but the Godnsblood Spelltheft (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070606) feat with the Good domain lets you convert stolen spells into Holy Words. Keep in mind that Master Spellthief technically doesn't advance your stolen spell capacity- in order to be able to hold a Holy Word, you need 7 levels in spellthief, and at that point you might as well go Spellthief 8-> Chameleon.

So at level 13, your wizard buddy has maybe 2 7th level spells for you to convert to Holy Words, and you've taken Practiced Caster and have CL 18. Doesn't seem like much to write home about, compared to the stuff a Master Spelltheif/Ultimate Magus build.

Jack_Simth
2009-05-04, 06:18 PM
Hmm.. good catch on the can't using it to qualify.

Spellthief / Beholder Mage with master Spell Thief still works, but that prestige class is pretty bad.
Yeah - that phrase is also why I generally recommend a bardic entry - for purposes of item crafting (Bard-5/Chameleon-10 has a bardic caster level - not dependant on Chameleon levels - of 5 - which means the chameleon can use the flexible feat for item creation feats. Add in Practiced Spellcaster (for a Bardic caster level of 9) and Craft Rod, and you can make all the Core metamagic rods as well (by using the Flexible Feat for the metamagic feat).

quick_comment
2009-05-04, 06:30 PM
Wings of Flurry is a nice spell. CL*d6 force damage, 30ft burst, no damage cap.

Chronos
2009-05-04, 11:04 PM
This got me thinking and I did some checking. If you were to pick your first 10 levels as spell thief and then picked up the Master Spell thief feat, in addition to some other lovely abilities your spell thief levels stack with any class that grants arcane spells other then the spell thief.Doesn't work. Master Spellthief doesn't stack your caster levels; it stacks your class levels, and then makes that your caster level. So on the one hand, a straight Spellthief 20 with Master Spellthief has a caster level of 20 (instead of the 10 a Spellthief would normally have), but on the other hand, a Spellthief 10/Chameleon 10 with Master Spellthief and Arcane Focus would also have a CL of 20, no better than a normal Chameleon. And a Spellthief 1/X 9/Chameleon 10 (where X is a non-casting class) with Master Spellthief would actually have a caster level of only 11 (which wouldn't be all bad; you could make cheap scrolls that way).