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Shinizak
2009-05-04, 11:29 AM
What would happen if a balor put on a helm of opposite alignment and then failed it's will (natural 1 or something). Since all of it's powers are evil based would they flip to good? I know it's powers wouldn't just get up and leave (they aren't class levels). And further, what would it's personality be like?

Djinn_in_Tonic
2009-05-04, 11:38 AM
I'd say it keeps it's original abilities exactly as they are (not a big loss...DR/good is because it's still a demon, and only three of it's spell-like or non-spell-like abilities rely on alignment for their effect).

Personality-wise, I'd go somewhere interesting. It's not Lawful Good, but it's still a Demon. I see it being a merciless, unforgiving Lawful Good...the sort of crusading knight that might destroy the homes, families, and lives of his terribly evil foes before finally putting them slowly to the sword. Call it Lawful Good leaning towards Evil. The Balor isn't suddenly Mr. Friendly...but he IS out to do all of this for the good of the world.

Starbuck_II
2009-05-04, 12:05 PM
What would happen if a balor put on a helm of opposite alignment and then failed it's will (natural 1 or something). Since all of it's powers are evil based would they flip to good? I know it's powers wouldn't just get up and leave (they aren't class levels). And further, what would it's personality be like?

He would be exactly the same statistially.
But his outlook, demeanor, and alignment would be good. And no one can make him think being evil is a good idea.

He still has all his evil spells, but would hesitate to use them esxcept in emergencies. He might use his summoning ability to help save people from a burning building while he fights something (but only if he can't save them without help).

Asbestos
2009-05-04, 09:11 PM
He still has all his evil spells, but would hesitate to use them esxcept in emergencies. He might use his summoning ability to help save people from a burning building while he fights something (but only if he can't save them without help).

Yeah, but the summoned demons would still be CE. He'd be all "Save those people!" and they'd just chow down on them or something.

Calinero
2009-05-04, 09:18 PM
Maybe the spell would summon archons instead?

holywhippet
2009-05-04, 09:26 PM
I'd actually rule this as being impossible. A balor doesn't have "equipment slots" other than the stuff they normally carry. So putting on a helm of opposite alignment would be impossible.

If you wanted to allow it, the balor would be a fallen demon - (or ascended demon maybe?). Basically the opposite of a fallen angel. They would be cut off from their dark origins and would probably develop a new power set based on the powers of good.

KillianHawkeye
2009-05-04, 09:26 PM
When WotC did the article about the Succubus Paladin, it said that she couldn't use her summoning ability anymore because no demons would answer it because they knew she was LG.

tyckspoon
2009-05-04, 09:37 PM
I'd actually rule this as being impossible. A balor doesn't have "equipment slots" other than the stuff they normally carry. So putting on a helm of opposite alignment would be impossible.


They're humanoid. They have all the same body slots every other humanoid being does. Just because they don't have any other stuff listed in their MM page doesn't mean they can't wear it.

Fostire
2009-05-04, 09:38 PM
Since a Balor is pretty much an incarnation of evil I would rule that either:
A) It doesn't work
B) The Balor ceases to exist
C) It becomes a solar or some other celestial

Sinfire Titan
2009-05-04, 09:53 PM
I'd actually rule this as being impossible. A balor doesn't have "equipment slots" other than the stuff they normally carry. So putting on a helm of opposite alignment would be impossible.

If you wanted to allow it, the balor would be a fallen demon - (or ascended demon maybe?). Basically the opposite of a fallen angel. They would be cut off from their dark origins and would probably develop a new power set based on the powers of good.

As tyckspoon has pointed out, this is wrong. For proof, a Balor with the ability to shape soulmelds has all of the chakra slots a normal humanoid does (and even more, as their wings count as another pair of arms which opens up another Arm slot).

They are fully capable of wearing the helm. It would reshape itself to match their head.

RTGoodman
2009-05-04, 10:17 PM
When WotC did the article about the Succubus Paladin, it said that she couldn't use her summoning ability anymore because no demons would answer it because they knew she was LG.

Indeed. For more info, check out the original Fight Club article on The Succubus Paladin (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20050824a). A Balor with helm of opposite alignment would probably end up in a similar situation, at least regarding racial abilities and such.

Chronos
2009-05-04, 10:30 PM
(and even more, as their wings count as another pair of arms which opens up another Arm slot).Not quite-- Wings only count as "arms" if they're the only forelimbs a creature has. So a wyvern has its arms chakra on its wings, but a dragon has it on its front legs, and a balor has it on its arms. No creature has more than 10 chakras.

Baron Malkar
2009-05-04, 11:46 PM
It depends how lazy the DM is.:smalltongue:

Justin B.
2009-05-05, 12:09 AM
I would say that it depends entirely on the cosmology of the setting. In a setting that portrayed Demons as fallen good beings, the Balor may become a Solar, in settings where the Demons and devils are instead personifications of great evil, then it is destroyed.

In my setting, for every terribly evil act, a Balor is spawned by the dark Gods to join in the fight against the Celestials. Likewise, for every act of great goodness, a Solar is spawned. Acts of lesser goodness or evil create lesser beings.

So in my setting, the Balor would be destroyed, because as the personification of evil, without the possibility of evil to sustain it's existance, it has no further metaphysical purpose. Likewise, a Solar would be created, because destroying a Balor is an act of great good, empowering the Good Gods with the ability to create a powerful servant.

Sinfire Titan
2009-05-05, 12:39 AM
Not quite-- Wings only count as "arms" if they're the only forelimbs a creature has. So a wyvern has its arms chakra on its wings, but a dragon has it on its front legs, and a balor has it on its arms. No creature has more than 10 chakras.

Ah, then I need to really reread that section. And Epic Totemists can get 11 Chakras (Totem).

Chronos
2009-05-05, 08:03 PM
Actually, even non-epic totemists have 11 chakras; they just can't bind to all of them. But I was neglecting the totem chakra because it works so differently from the rest.

Sinfire Titan
2009-05-05, 08:19 PM
Actually, even non-epic totemists have 11 chakras; they just can't bind to all of them. But I was neglecting the totem chakra because it works so differently from the rest.

True. And then there's the Mask Chakra (http://www.keepandshare.com/doc/view.php?id=1157318&da=y), but that isn't finished. Yet...