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evisiron
2009-05-04, 12:17 PM
Hi.

Character:
The idea is an arrogant son of a noble who happens to develop sorcerer powers. With his natural over confidence and charisma on his side, everything in his life comes extremely easily. So, in an attempt to help before its too late, his father sends him to a semi distant monastery to become a monk and learn the nature of hard work and patience.

The son arrives, learns to fight, gets bored and skips out to try his hand elsewhere in the world.

Mechanically, I was going to go with 2 levels in Monk and the rest in Sorcerer. Now, I am not much for power gaming here, but combining the weakest melee class with the weakest magic class (speaking core and purely opinion here) might make him a bit too underpowered. I still want to be a useful member of the group.

I would like to keep the character focus on blasting and a bit of utility magic, with a bit of "just in case" punching/kicking power.

Does anyone have any advice?

arkol
2009-05-04, 12:36 PM
Ascetic Mage would be a nice place to start.

It's a feat from Complete Adventurer.

It allows a few things. First your sorc and monk levels stack for Unarmored Ac and you can use either Cha or Wis for bonus to Ac. Secondly you can burn spell slots to get bonus (equal to the level of the spell burned) on attack and damage for one round. Finally you can actually multiclass freely between monk and sorc.

IIRC there was a prestige class that combined the two classes but if memory serves me right it didn't have full casting progression. Sacred fist or something like that....

Eldariel
2009-05-04, 12:41 PM
Enlightened Fist for Arcane/Monk. It's in Complete Arcane. 8/10 casting and Medium BAB. Not an amazing class, but with Greater Mighty Wallop, Arcane Disciple: War & Wraithstrike, certainly playable. Remove some of those and it gets progressively worse, but eh, it's still ok as long as you've got access to Divine Power (that is, Arcane Disciple: War).

Unfortunately, this does nothing to improve your blasting, which is mostly achieved through Metamagic-focused PrCs and metamagic cost reducers.

theMycon
2009-05-04, 12:53 PM
I was coming in precisely to mention what arkol did.

So, I'll augment it.

Also get "Force of Personality", also from C.Adv, to put your Charisma to Will saves- so now you can almost entirely dump Wis.

And... you're not going to hit often. When you do hit, it won't matter. Your BAB will be terrible- the equivalent of 1/2 the whole way. Your flurry is at -2/-2; it'll do less damage than any of the weapons, but the feat's bonus only applies to unarmed attacks- making the offense part of it nearly worthless. Str will help a bit, but probably not as much as Dex, and it's definitely not worth getting Weapon Finesse for this build...

Unless... you have a lot of spells that focus on melee touch attacks. Which, I can't give you many off the top of my head, but I'm certain they exist.

riddles
2009-05-04, 12:56 PM
enlightened fist i believe is the monk/sorceror crossbreed class. it's not great.

while not changing the flavour of your build (nobleman developing innate powers), i would drop sorceror and use psion, ardent or psychic warrior (leading into the slayer prc). there is a feat in secrets of sarlona that lets you add levels in one specified class to your monk level for determining unarmed damage (meaning you can use INA and expansion for around 8d6 damage per shot), AC bonus and speed bonus.

Psionics + monk = win (or at least a playable brawler)

Eldariel
2009-05-04, 12:56 PM
I was coming in precisely to mention what arkol did.

So, I'll augment it.

Also get "Force of Personality", also from C.Adv, to put your Charisma to Will saves- so now you can almost entirely dump Wis.

And... you're not going to hit often. When you do hit, it won't matter. Your BAB will be terrible- the equivalent of 1/2 the whole way. Your flurry is at -2/-2; it'll do less damage than any of the weapons, but the feat's bonus only applies to unarmed attacks- making the offense part of it nearly worthless. Str will help a bit, but probably not as much as Dex, and it's definitely not worth getting Weapon Finesse for this build...

Unless... you have a lot of spells that focus on melee touch attacks. Which, I can't give you many off the top of my head, but I'm certain they exist.

Enlightened Fist gets around all of this (sacrifices spells to improve To Hit & damage, channels spells, etc.). All you need is Arcane Disciple: War and 14 Wis and you'll be able to cast Divine Power, making you able to fix your BAB entirely.

Of course, this saves you a feat in Power of Personality too. Also, Enlightened Fist gets the ability to burn Stunning Fist-uses for something useful (A Sorc/Monk isn't gonna have Wis to use Stunning Fist itself).

Zaq
2009-05-04, 02:20 PM
The question is, what do you hope to gain out of Monk? While Monk makes an acceptable two-level dip for certain melee types, it's really not an awesome idea for a sorcerer. If you're just looking for the flavor, remember that the concept of classes doesn't exist in-game. A multiclass sorcerer/monk won't think of himself as a multiclass sorcerer/monk. He'd probably think of himself as a sorcerer (or similar term) with some martial arts training, or as an unarmed warrior with some magic powers. If you simply want the flavor, then just write it into your backstory, perhaps take Improved Unarmed Strike if you really want it, and use your magic to let you hit things harder than someone without martial training. For example:

In character: "Yeah, my father sent me to study with Master Leank for a year or two a while back. I felt it was a waste of time, but I did learn how to use my inner powers a bit better for hitting people a whole lot harder."
Mechanically: Improved Unarmed Strike, Fist of Stone, Mighty Wallop or Greater Mighty Wallop, maybe Bull's Strength if your GM is generous about retaining spells, maybe Arcane Strike if you're high enough level.

See what I did there? You've got the exact same flavor and backstory as a multiclass Sorcerer/Monk, and you can still hit people really really hard with your fists, but you don't have to set two caster levels on fire for only minor benefits. The spell selection might not be from the semi-canonical list of "Spells That Will Make You Win At Everything Ever," but that's not the point, is it? The point is a sorcerous character whose fists can be as dangerous as he wants them to be.

For more of a monkish feel, I recommend the Divine Companion from Complete Champion. You lose your familiar and instead gain an intangible force that protects you. You cast spells into it, then release the stored energy to either give you a very nice bonus on AC and saves or heal yourself. You can get your familiar back with a feat (Obtain Familiar, from Complete Arcane) if you want one, and the one you gain from the feat is strictly better than your natural one, because prestige classes advance it. The Divine Companion will give you more survivability, which is important if you're going to be getting up close and personal.

If you're set on multiclassing, as long as your GM doesn't have an irrational hatred of Tome of Battle (often caused by not reading the book), Unarmed Swordsage is basically what Monk should have been. Nice as it is, though, I recommend going straight sorcerer over multiclassing like that, but unarmed swordsage is better than monk in just about every way.

The point is, you can be a monk without being a Monk. Miko didn't need levels in Samurai, after all.

Bushwhacked
2009-05-04, 02:37 PM
I'm going to throw one of my sheets at you. He's basicly using alot of the ideas suggested so far but throws in warshaper. He then uses either alter self or polymorph to up his hitting damage. His other spells then go along the lines of utility, touch spells for the EF's class feature or to be burned with the arcane strike feat.

http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=88979

Darrin
2009-05-04, 02:53 PM
You may also want to consider Master of the East Wind (Dragon #314), which is sort of a hybrid monk/arcane PrC. Medium BAB but 10 full caster levels. Requires ki strike (magic), but a dip into Enlightened Fist fixes that.

A Monk 1/Sorcerer 3/Enlightened Fist 5/Master of the East Wind 10/Something Else 1 only loses two caster levels. You can bring that down to only losing one caster level if you're a kobold and do the Draconic Rite of Passage thing.

Kobolds also start with three natural attacks, which can be useful as secondary attacks after a full attack with unarmed strike.

There are several ways to pick up a monk's unarmed strike without actually taking monk levels: Battledancer base class (Dragon Compendium), Fist of the Forest, Shou Disciple, etc., but there's no other way to get Stunning Fist without BAB +8. This locks you out of Enlightened Fist. However, if ToB is available, Jade Phoenix Mage can be a lot of fun:

Unarmed Swordsage 1/Sorcerer 5/JPM 10/Abjurant Champion 4

You don't get 9th level spells unless you do the Kobold/Draconic Rite of Passage thing. But once a week you get to completely explode in a 20' radius fireball of arcane energy, and reform fully healed 1d6 rounds later.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-05-04, 06:21 PM
Actually, there is one reason to go Monk2:

Evasion. Well, that and +3 to all resists. But mostly Evasion. You see, with this build, you can dump Strength in favor of Dex (which is AC + to hit with RTA's), which also improves your Reflex save. With the bonus from Monk, you're going to have a pretty darn good Reflex save, so Evasion actually comes in real handy, and covers what is normally a weak point for many caster builds (usually have sucky Reflex saves, so the 'weak' blastomancy generally works pretty good on them).

Then pick up Ascetic Mage, and use Charisma for your AC bonus. Pick up a Monks Belt, if you like, but really not necessary. So now you've got your primary casting stat to your AC, and pretty darn good all-round resists.

This makes the normally squishy-at-lower-levels Sorcerer be surprisingly good at not being hurt.

Still not worth two caster levels, but it isn't as bad as some people make it out to be. You just have to be real careful to never loose any more caster levels so you can still end up with 9th level spells pre-epic.

holywhippet
2009-05-04, 06:27 PM
Do you really have your heart set on being a monk? Consider having your character sent to a religious type monastary instead and has levels of cleric instead. If you grab 3 levels, you'll eventually qualify for the mystic theurge prestige class - very cast-a-tastic. Cleric is a better choice since you'll have some healing spells available to you.

monty
2009-05-04, 06:27 PM
Actually, there is one reason to go Monk2:

Evasion.

Totemist 2 and a Monk's Belt could give you pretty much everything important Monk 2 gets, plus more.

woodenbandman
2009-05-04, 10:56 PM
I say check out a Swordsage. It'll let you feel like you're a magic flying monk while actually being a playable character. Also you get Time Stands Still and crap like that.

Buy Tome of Battle.

Roderick_BR
2009-05-05, 10:50 AM
I second Ascetic Mage, and Force of Personality. Pick 1 level of monk, forget going into melee, and enjoy a sorcerer with good saves and AC. There's the whole "one spellcasting level late" thing, specially for a class that already have a slower progression (you'll start casting 3rd level spells at 7th character level). If you really want to do it, you can even try to optimize your casting, that you won't be stepping on anyone's toes.

Rad
2009-05-05, 11:38 AM
I would also go for swordsage and Jade Phoenix Mage.
JPM has a requirement to be not evil but there is nothing in the class that would not work for an evil character.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-05-05, 12:42 PM
I'll second Darrin's suggestion of using Enlightened Fist and Master of the East Wind (http://crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Classes-Prestige.pdf). You can actually get 18th level spellcasting at a caster level of 20 with Practiced Spellcaster, 16th level Monk abilities not counting a Monk's Belt or Monk's Tattoo, and a +12 BAB at level 20. Go Monk 1/ Sorcerer 4/ Enlightened Fist 5/ Master of the East Wind 10, get your prerequisites and take Ascetic Mage at level 6, your other feats are open to whatever you want. Be sure to include Practiced Spellcaster, and Arcane Strike would be another good choice. I'd go for Draconic Heritage and Draconic Breath, and take the spell Blinding Breath, maybe even Ability Focus: Draconic Breath, and don't worry about taking many damage dealing spells. Maybe even consider one of the Bloodline feats (http://crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Feats.pdf) (starting on page 112) to expand your spells known.

Myrmex
2009-05-06, 01:39 AM
Chill Touch, a necromancy spell from Core, gives you one touch attack/CL, which adds 1d6 cold damage and a fort save or do 1 point of strength damage. Not a bad spell for a second level slot.

evisiron
2009-05-07, 03:30 PM
Just posting to say thank you to everyone who posted their advice!

I am likely to use those feats from the CA, but am also looking to buy the Tome of Battle after hearing so much from it.

Thanks again! :smallbiggrin: