PDA

View Full Version : Hard-and-fast oil guidelines?



Zaq
2009-05-05, 01:26 AM
I've perused the relevant section in the DMG, and I don't see an immediate answer. The broad category known as "potions" also includes oils, which basically are rubbed on to a target rather than swallowed. Generally, spells that affect objects (like Magic Weapon) are oils, while spells that affect creatures are potions, but there's some overlap, such as Invisibility. I don't see any reason why you couldn't smear an oil of invisibility on yourself just as effectively as you could chug a potion of the same, and indeed it seems rather silly to me that if you planned on making both creatures and objects invisible that you'd need to have two separate kinds of invisibility-causing liquids in your bag. That made me think... are there any set and defined rules as to what spells can be made into oils instead of potions? Is there any reason why you couldn't make an oil of CLW as easily as a potion of it? I don't actually see a rule banning it, and I don't see any rules explicitly stating that creature-affecting spells can't be oils instead of potions. The net effect of this would be to allow creatures to smear oils on one another, essentially changing who the actor is for the action of "use potion or potion-like substance on character." Would you see a problem with this?

RS14
2009-05-05, 01:39 AM
That sounds reasonable. However, note "Drinking a potion or using an oil on an item of gear is a standard action." The rules do not explicitly state how long it takes to apply an oil to a conscious creature, so I would judge from the rules given that it takes a full round action (one must take care pouring a potion down the throat of an unconscious creature, but no special care is needed in applying an oil). With this ruling, oils become more versatile, as, if the spell permits, they may act on both creatures and objects, but potions are quicker to apply.

(As for what spells are what, I don't see why you couldn't make a potion of darkness---it would just be useless, or maybe blind the drinker, just for kicks.)

TheCountAlucard
2009-05-05, 01:49 AM
Likewise, I know of no hard-and-fast rules for whether something is a potion or an oil...

Also, tenuously related to the subject, in my games, potions of animate dead (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BnOUOkcr9c) come in syringes. :smallbiggrin:

Zaq
2009-05-05, 02:37 AM
To be less coy about it, what I'd ideally like to do is employ a combination of Quick Potion and a familiar to essentially get better action economy. Cast Quick Potion (or I guess Quick Oil), cast a rounds-per-level spell into it, let your familiar hang on to it, and have it rub the oil on you in the first round of combat. Tah-dah, you no longer have to waste a round on, say, Spectral Hand or Bite of the WereWhatever. Essentially, it's using the old "designate familiar as touch-spell-carrier for desirable touch spell before combat starts, have it touch you with it as soon as combat begins" trick, only modified to deal with spells that aren't necessarily touch.

Not that I'm currently playing anyone with a familiar... or anyone at all, for that matter, since the game I was in just went on indefinite hiatus. But you know how it is once your mind starts fiddling with something... no matter how useless it is, you want to share it and/or tweak it. Perhaps I shouldn't be using the second person pronoun here, should I? In either case, that's what I had in mind. Does this change your opinion on potions versus oils?

Edit: Fixed a weird spacing error.

bosssmiley
2009-05-05, 05:18 AM
Likewise, I know of no hard-and-fast rules for whether something is a potion or an oil...

Also, tenuously related to the subject, in my games, potions of animate dead (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BnOUOkcr9c) come in syringes. :smallbiggrin:

Flourescent green and administered by Jeffrey Coombs I hope. :smallwink:

As to why invisibility is a potion rather than an oil in D&D: hey, The Invisible Man (http://www.bartleby.com/1003/).

AslanCross
2009-05-05, 05:39 AM
The implications on the differences between an oil of fireball and a potion of fireball are hilarious.

hewhosaysfish
2009-05-05, 06:11 AM
To be less coy about it, what I'd ideally like to do is employ a combination of Quick Potion and a familiar to essentially get better action economy. Cast Quick Potion (or I guess Quick Oil), cast a rounds-per-level spell into it, let your familiar hang on to it, and have it rub the oil on you in the first round of combat. Tah-dah, you no longer have to waste a round on, say, Spectral Hand or Bite of the WereWhatever. Essentially, it's using the old "designate familiar as touch-spell-carrier for desirable touch spell before combat starts, have it touch you with it as soon as combat begins" trick, only modified to deal with spells that aren't necessarily touch.

Not that I'm currently playing anyone with a familiar... or anyone at all, for that matter, since the game I was in just went on indefinite hiatus. But you know how it is once your mind starts fiddling with something... no matter how useless it is, you want to share it and/or tweak it. Perhaps I shouldn't be using the second person pronoun here, should I? In either case, that's what I had in mind. Does this change your opinion on potions versus oils?

Edit: Fixed a weird spacing error.

My mind is currently grappling with the mental image of a wizard going into battle with an oily weasel rolling around on the back of his neck.
Surely I'm not the only one who finds this bizarre?

Talic
2009-05-05, 06:21 AM
Potions are listed as having an imbiber as the target.

Oils are listed as being rubbed in or on objects.

There's very little difference, but RAW, oils cannot be used that way.

However, it is perfectly reasonable to take Complete Arcane's "alternate potions", such as tiles, etc... And call it a salve. Basically an ointment that's rubbed in. Boom. Done. Of course, the only real rule of alternate potions is that they cannot alter the mechanics. This seems to.

Reaper_Monkey
2009-05-05, 07:07 AM
However, it is perfectly reasonable to take Complete Arcane's "alternate potions" ... the only real rule of alternate potions is that they cannot alter the mechanics. This seems to.

Very true, and I'd agree 100% that changing the fluff to fit an oil instead of a potion is perfectly fine (I'm quite easy when it comes to refluffing things anyway). However I'd also state that although CA claims you can't change the mechanics, they do themselves, its just to what degree that mechanic is changed.
The fruit and wafers require you to be able to place something in your mouth and swallow (as does the potion) which differs from the tiles and talismans which only require you to break the object while in proximity. The mechanics still fulfil the basic parameters of of a potion but its changing the subtle rules of application.

Therefore "potions" can be flavoured in anyway as to fulfil the following:

Must be single-use only.
Must be physically manipulated to be used.
Is unambiguous as to who is the target (proximity, contact or consumption).
Is usable by anyone.
Is a standard action that provoke an attacks of opportunity to use.
Is a full-round action to apply to unconscious creatures.
Can duplicate the effect of a spell of up to 3rd level that has a casting time of less than 1 minute.

As such stating it is an oil is fine and good, and using any feat that modifies the way in which a potion is used would apply to anything that mimics a potions effect. Thus it could simply be fairy dust that your familiar throws over you to cause the same affect, but the mechanics of applying it must fulfil the ones stated above.

This allows a lot of wiggle room to allow incorporeal creatures or creatures with no mouths/cant use their mouth to use a potion, or to allow familiars to use them for you (even some interesting traps, dust of inflict x wounds used for a crude but quick trap or the such).

When it comes to taking a full-round action to apply to unconscious creatures, this makes sense to almost any alternative potion anyway. If it has to be crushed then it takes more time to manually make someone who is unconscious be the one who crushes it. If its an oil then you have to manually move the creature to apply it fully, if its dust then you might have to roll them over to apply half of it as so to fully cover them.
Attempts to get around the full-round action application wont break the game, it will just allow you to recover from a close call quicker, so you may even choose to overlook this entirely with a house ruling anyway, but by RAW you should think it through as so to have a reason why it takes longer.

In short, go mad with the flavour of it, just keep it within the basic rules a potion already defines, a little variance is fine and good and will actually make the game more interesting. But changing the rules to make some "potions" clearly more powerful than the standard wont work in the long run unless its houseruled to all of them equally.

Telok
2009-05-05, 07:34 AM
My preference with this sort of thing was always to skip taking the Brew Potion feat in favor of Craft Wonderous Item. Because then you could explicitly make the same spells into oils or dusts, and didn't have some of the more inconvenient drawbacks like limiting you to third level spells.

Best of all a single use, use activated, miscellaneous item has the same gold and xp costs as a potion.

Talic
2009-05-05, 07:44 AM
From Complete Arcane:
• Single-use only—once consumed, the potion is gone.
• Limited to spells of 3rd level or lower.
• No special magical training required—anyone can drink a potion and gain the benefit of its magic.
• Must be physically manipulated in some way (unstoppered or broken, then consumed).
• Must be in the user’s hand to be used.
• Use provokes attacks of
opportunity.

Item 4. Oil fails the litmus test. The "unambiguous" line you have isn't in this listing. Which means we must fall back on the potion.

From SRD:
Potions are like spells cast upon the imbiber. The character taking the potion doesn’t get to make any decisions about the effect —the caster who brewed the potion has already done so. The drinker of a potion is both the effective target and the caster of the effect (though the potion indicates the caster level, the drinker still controls the effect).

From this, the drinker ("user") of the potion is always the target and caster.

Thus, whatever creature takes the standard action must be the one to benefit. That's mechanical. That's not fluff. It's a defining characteristic of a potion.

In the instance of applying it to another creature, the closest we can find is a full-round action, and the creature must be helpless (It's arguably easier to get an unconscious person to drink something you're pouring, than someone ducking and weaving in combat).

No, I don't think this is a feasible mechanic.

However:
Likewise, it takes a full-round action to apply an oil to an unconscious creature.

Thus, oils can be applied to creatures, and, as a full round action, provided they're unconscious. Again, cooperative people would likely lower the action time... But cooperative people aren't doing other things.

It's certainly reasonable to say someone jogging across the battlefield and stopping to make arcane gestures is not always gonna be able to lift the arm to allow easy access. Bare minimum, Full round action for the familiar.

Reaper_Monkey
2009-05-05, 09:56 AM
Thus, whatever creature takes the standard action must be the one to benefit. That's mechanical. That's not fluff. It's a defining characteristic of a potion. ... Bare minimum, Full round action for the familiar.

Hmm, I was unaware that the standard action had to be taken by the user, I was under the impression that a willing participant could use someone else's standard action to take a potion (like say if they were chained up or something so were unable to raise the potion to their mouth to drink it).

If what your saying is right then yes I would have to concede that it would have to be a full-round action regardless. However, I'd also be more inclined to houserule around it myself, as it seems to gimp the usefulness of potions heavily.