[4e] Ruminating on the Ki power source and Oriental Adventures

[overduegalaxy]

I was thinking about the implications of the yet-to-be-revealed power sources today, and Ki in particular got me thinking. When it's come down to discussion, there's been speculation along the lines of Ninja as a Ki striker, Samurai as a defender or leader, and monk as various things (usually a striker or defender, but sometimes even a controller).

But rarely are any of the (other) Oriental Adventures classes mentioned. Wu Jen happens to be arcane in 3.5, while the shugenga is divine, but there's no reason one (or both) couldn't be folded into the Ki power source, filling the controller or leader gap.

But that's not actually my point. My point is that whenever the Ki power source is released, it'll likely give PHB# a very oriental bent. Is it possible WotC would take this chance to update Oriental Adventures stuff? While they probably won't update the actual campaign setting (I don't even know if they still have the rights to it), what's to stop them from statting out Spirit Folk, Vanara, or Hengeyokai? Or all the fairly unique weapons that were in OA? Not to mention the Asian-flavored Paragon Paths.

Basically, this is a roundabout way of asking if this has even slightly been hinted at or anything, or am I just making wild speculations? I don't keep up with Wizard's updates or announcements too closely, so I may be completely off-base here.

[KillianHawkeye]

Well, I don't have D&DI and I haven't been to the WotC web site much since they started requiring subscriptions for the magazines, but I haven't heard anything at all about the Ki power source except for the fact that there will be one. AFAIK, everything else is speculation.

I think it is pretty reasonable to assume that whichever PHB #N the Ki power source is released in will also contain Ki-themed equipment, magic items, and Paragon Paths & Epic Destinies. If so, then MM #N will probably contain some Ki-themed monsters as well. But I don't think there's been any official word about any of that.

[RTGoodman]

We'll definitely know on Monday everything about the Monk that we want to know. There's a Playtest article on the Monk coming out that day, so it'll tell us power source, role, and a stuff like that.

As far as knowing about PHB3, I'm not sure it'll be TOTALLY focused on the Ki power source, but there'll be some Oriental stuff there, I'd think. Maybe not Hengeyoki or anything way outside the norm, but you'll probably see some PPs, EDs, and stuff that have definite Asian influences. How much of the book is focused on that I can't say, but I figure it'll be about like PHB2's - a little more on the new source (Primal), but in general pretty well-balanced regarding the other sources, too.

[Asbestos]

We'll definitely know on Monday everything about the Monk that we want to know. There's a Playtest article on the Monk coming out that day, so it'll tell us power source, role, and a stuff like that.

As far as knowing about PHB3, I'm not sure it'll be TOTALLY focused on the Ki power source, but there'll be some Oriental stuff there, I'd think. Maybe not Hengeyoki or anything way outside the norm, but you'll probably see some PPs, EDs, and stuff that have definite Asian influences. How much of the book is focused on that I can't say, but I figure it'll be about like PHB2's - a little more on the new source (Primal), but in general pretty well-balanced regarding the other sources, too.

Yeah, I'm finding it hard to wait for Monday to role around (who has ever said that before?)

But... I don't think we'll see more primal classes in the PHB3, they've got all the classics down (Druid and Barb) an odd reboot of one class (Shaman) and a totally new class (Warden) ... that only leaves newer classes and the only thing I can think of them bringing in would be a Totemist-like striker. Maybe PHB3 will have the 'unarmed' classes?

My hope is that the PHB3 introduces Ki (or whatever the monk may be) and Psionics.

[JaxGaret]

It's been speculated that each PHB will follow the 4-2-2 formula. Four classes from one power source, and two classes each from two other power sources, fleshing out a full 4 PHB classes for each power source. Both the PHB1 and PHB2 followed this pattern.

If PHB3 follows accordingly, that means that it would have three new power sources. Most likely Ki, Psionic, and one other (Shadow, Elemental, etc.).

[Decoy Lockbox]

I think that they will essentially take all the old "oriental" classes and make them Ki-based.

Defender: Samurai
Striker: Ninja, Monk
Leader: Shugenja
Controller: Wu Jen

It just occurred to me that in my experience (having played as or in a party with, all the above classes), all 5 of those classes were really bad in 3.5 -- hopefully they will change that in 4e.

My buddy who loves playing monks will certainly have a field day with a monk that doesn't suck. As much scorn is heaped upon the 3.5 monk, the 1e monk was so much worse. You couldn't wear armor, and you didn't get your dex to AC; your AC was whatever it said in the class progression. Level 1 monks had 2d4 hp and 10 AC, with absolutely no way of upping that. For comparison, a garden-variety Orc you might fight at lvl 1 had 1d8+1 hp and did about as much damage when he hit, which meant that a single blow from an orc was probably going to kill any level 1 monk it hit...needless to say, there weren't a whole lot of level 2 monks :smallbiggrin:

[RTGoodman]

But... I don't think we'll see more primal classes in the PHB3, they've got all the classics down (Druid and Barb) an odd reboot of one class (Shaman) and a totally new class (Warden) ... that only leaves newer classes and the only thing I can think of them bringing in would be a Totemist-like striker. Maybe PHB3 will have the 'unarmed' classes?

Yeah, I wasn't trying to say there'll be new Primal classes in PHB3, but that the new type (Ki) would be the focus, with some support for older sources. Jax just said it a lot better. :smallredface:


My hope is that the PHB3 introduces Ki (or whatever the monk may be) and Psionics.

I think that would make sense - Ki is definitely in, and since Eberron is the main setting for 2009 (Player's Guide in July and Campaign Guide in August, I think?), Psionics, which are so important in Eberron, will probably be out soon after.

[Shadow_Elf]

I agree that Ki will look something like:

Defender: Samurai
Striker: Monk
Controller: Wu Jen
Leader: Shugenja

and I think Psionics will be something like:

Defender: Psychic Warrior
Striker: Soulknife
Controller: Psion
Leader: Argent

IMHO, PH3 will either be:
Monk, Samurai, Wu Jen, Shugenja, Psion, Psychic Warrior, Necromancer, Shadowcaster


OR

Monk, Samurai, Psion, Psychic Warrior, Soulknife, Argent, Necromancer, Shadowcaster

Depending on whether they decided to make it a Ki focus or a Psionics focus. Oriental-Adventures-type-stuff, like special weapons and Oriental-themed PPs and EDs, will probably come in the form of a "Ki Power" book.

Side note: People are theorizing that the originally announced "Elemental" Power Source is too similar in concept to Arcane, and will not feel unique. If WotC listens (or has already listened) and needs a new power source, my money goes to Incarnum.

[Decoy Lockbox]

Side note: People are theorizing that the originally announced "Elemental" Power Source is too similar in concept to Arcane, and will not feel unique. If WotC listens (or has already listened) and needs a new power source, my money goes to Incarnum.

Yeah, I could see that. Arcane is a pretty ill-defined power source, and I would welcome Incarnum. I didn't ever play an Incarnum user in 3.5, but the idea of powering magic with the power of souls seems too cool to ignore, in addition to being a wholly unique power source idea.

[JaxGaret]

Defender: Samurai
Striker: Ninja, Monk
Leader: Shugenja
Controller: Wu Jen

It just occurred to me that in my experience (having played as or in a party with, all the above classes), all 5 of those classes were really bad in 3.5 -- hopefully they will change that in 4e.

The Shugenja, even though it is one of the weakest full casters in the game, is not weak per se, as it is still a full caster. The same goes for the Wu Jen, except that it is quite a bit more powerful than the Shugenja, since it is simply a Wizard variant albeit a slightly weakened one.

[NPCMook]

Elemental makes sense since it allows them to sell one additional PHB with 8 classes. what could Monk use as their Main Attribute?

[Asbestos]

Elemental makes sense since it allows them to sell one additional PHB with 8 classes. what could Monk use as their Main Attribute?
Elemental doesn't make too much sense when you look at the PPs in Arcane Power that have such strong ties to the Elemental Chaos (heck, I think two require you to speak Primordial as pre-reqs)

[Dhavaer]

Monks would use Wisdom as their main attribute, I imagine.

[Beleriphon]

Monks would use Wisdom as their main attribute, I imagine.

Wisdom, Strength and probably Dexterity are your top three on the monk.

[RTGoodman]

Wisdom, Strength and probably Dexterity are your top three on the monk.

Yeah, I'm thinking (at least looking at a lot of PHB2 classes), that you'll probably have a primary stat (Wisdom) and then a choice of which secondary (Str or Dex). Or maybe Str primary and Dex/Wis secondary, but then it seems too close to being just a Martial class.

Either way, we'll know in about 26 hours, I imagine - I think they've been good about getting most articles up between 12:00 and 1:00am EST on the day they're supposed to come out.

[RebelRogue]

Here's to hoping Monks will be controllers... That's really the way I see them, 4e-wise!

[Saintjebus]

Here's to hoping Monks will be controllers... That's really the way I see them, 4e-wise!

Really!?? I always pictured Monks as strikers. Fast movement, combined with what flurry of blows should have been- sounds very similar to an elven ranger w/ twin strike to me.

[RTGoodman]

Really!?? I always pictured Monks as strikers. Fast movement, combined with what flurry of blows should have been- sounds very similar to an elven ranger w/ twin strike to me.

Well, WotC seems to agree with you. In the Converting Your Character series of articles, they suggested the following way for playing a Monk before the actual class come out in 4E:

Monk

At a glance, the player with a 3E monk might think that he’s out of luck until the 4E monk releases—there’s no unarmored, unarmed melee fighter option anywhere in the Player’s Handbook. However, with your DM’s permission you can create a martial-arts striker who captures much of the monk’s style by following this process:

1. Choose the two-blade ranger build (p104). (Don’t worry, this will make sense in a minute.)

2. Give up your leather and hide armor proficiencies, gaining a +3 bonus to AC when wearing no armor or cloth armor. You’re now only a point behind the normal ranger’s AC.

3. Gain a +2 bonus to Will defense (in addition to the ranger’s normal defense bonuses).

4. Replace Dungeoneering and Nature on your class skill list with Arcana, Diplomacy, Insight, and Religion. Choose five trained skills from your class list.

5. Give up your martial weapon proficiencies. Grant your unarmed strike a +3 proficiency bonus, increase the damage to 1d8, and add the off-hand property. Now you’re wielding two melee weapons that are as good as the martial melee options available to the ranger.

6. Rename Hunter’s Quarry as Monastic Battle Focus, and lose the Prime Shot class feature. (You thought you were getting that +2 bonus to Will for free, didn’t you?)

7. Focus on mobility-oriented powers, particularly those that reward a high Wisdom score (such as evasive strike, yield ground, and weave through the fray). As desired, you can rename those powers with a flavor that befits your monkish heritage (peerless balance of the crane instead of fox’s cunning, for example).

8. Pick up feats to recreate other 3E monk class features—Evasion, Fleet-Footed, Long Jumper—and use multiclass feats (p209) to replicate the supernatural features. For example, the warlock has several teleportation powers reminiscent of abundant step.

This doesn’t faithfully recreate every element of the 3E monk, but it’s definitely a reasonable stopgap if you’re really committed to sticking with the character.

We'll see how it goes in about 9 hours. I'm not sure what the role could be - if there's a Ninja in Ki, that could be the Striker and leave Monk as a Controller. But, if they save Ninja for Shadow or just don't have it, then Monk is probably the Ki Striker.

[Asbestos]

We'll see how it goes in about 9 hours. I'm not sure what the role could be - if there's a Ninja in Ki, that could be the Striker and leave Monk as a Controller. But, if they save Ninja for Shadow or just don't have it, then Monk is probably the Ki Striker.

Now, this might seem like blasphemy... but not every power source needs to fill every role. If they can't think of a reasonable Ki controller, there might just not be one (maybe it'll make up for it by having 2 strikers, ninja and monk)

[RTGoodman]

Now, this might seem like blasphemy... but not every power source needs to fill every role.

Oh, yeah, I totally agree about that, but I'm not sure there'd be much sense in having a source-role repeat. It's happened before (Rogue, Ranger; Artificer, Bard), but each of those has kind of a niche role. They'd have to really do something to differentiate between Monk and Ninja as Ki strikers in order to really necessitate having both.

[Asbestos]

Oh, yeah, I totally agree about that, but I'm not sure there'd be much sense in having a source-role repeat. It's happened before (Rogue, Ranger; Artificer, Bard), but each of those has kind of a niche role. They'd have to really do something to differentiate between Monk and Ninja as Ki strikers in order to really necessitate having both.

Yeah, I was just using the Ninja/Monk thing as an example. I see all the Ki classes as being primarily melee with maybe some ranged weapon attacks, but certainly none of the zone-making ranged burst attacks that seem to be the bread and butter of Controllers.

Also... 2 hours and change till we see the monk (prototype).

[Shadow_Elf]

Oh, yeah, I totally agree about that, but I'm not sure there'd be much sense in having a source-role repeat. It's happened before (Rogue, Ranger; Artificer, Bard), but each of those has kind of a niche role. They'd have to really do something to differentiate between Monk and Ninja as Ki strikers in order to really necessitate having both.

Monk - unarmed disciplined kung-fu master that plays more like a Ranger/Swordmage with lots of extra attacks and a juicy unarmoured defensive bonus and some decent control/defense powers, depending on build.

Ninja - secretive, stealthy exotic warrior that plays more like a Rogue/Avenger, with good accuracy and bonus damage but low base damage, with some interesting combo attacks. Plays like a pure, lone-wolf striker.

Would those be different enough to merit them being a source/role repeat?

EDIT: Also, in the timezone from which WotC operates, won't it be Monday in 6 hours, not 2?

[overduegalaxy]

So.

With monks being psionic, I've been thinking again. The wu jen and shugenga actually could both easily fit into Elemental, while ninja sounds perfect for the Shadow power source. Since the samurai is going to be more of a template type thing, we don't have to worry about it's power source.

[Colmarr]

Someone mentions in the Monk Playtest thread that the Ki power source has been shelved.

[Elemental_Elf]

Someone mentions in the Monk Playtest thread that the Ki power source has been shelved.

Ki has indeed been scrapped and the classes that were going into it were given new homes in other power sources. Also the article mentioned making the Samurai akin to the 4e Gladiator.

[Asbestos]

So.

With monks being psionic, I've been thinking again. The wu jen and shugenga actually could both easily fit into Elemental, while ninja sounds perfect for the Shadow power source. Since the samurai is going to be more of a template type thing, we don't have to worry about it's power source.

I still don't see the Elemental power source ever existing. It seems like it would be difficult to make it distinct from Arcane.



Has anyone else thought that, with the monk going psionic, there are easily enough psionic classes to fill up an entire PHB?

[Artanis]

Has anyone else thought that, with the monk going psionic, there are easily enough psionic classes to fill up an entire PHB?
You mean as in 8 classes? Because there were already plenty of possibilities for the 4 that would be expected.