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View Full Version : Gestalt+Vow of poverty: Underpowered or overpowered?



Thorin
2009-05-05, 09:02 PM
So, we are going to start a Gestalt Camping at level 10

Im planing something among the lines of


Barbarian 5/Warshaper 5/Master of many forms 10 // Druid 20
Long story made short :I would be the spiritual guide of my tribe.

Looking at the book of exalted deeds, I noticed that all the bonus given by Vow of poverty could be well used with Wildshape. Hpwever, I donīt know if giving up all the gold is such a great idea (I mean, i have always loved to buy my own gear).

This character would work ok or would be a bad thing to take vow of poverty (underpowered or overpowered or kindda balanced for a gestalt campaign)?

Where are going to use the standard WBL, so magic items are kept at normal rate



Im sleepy and confused!

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-05-05, 09:13 PM
VoP is considerably underpowered, whether normal or Gestalt. That said, Druid is the class least hurt by it. I'd say do it if the flavor works, but otherwise no. That said, our current build is pretty darn powerful, so eh.
For specifically boosting it, I recommend one of the Barbarian rage-variants (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm#rageVariantWhirlingFrenzy ), and probably taking a Totem (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm)(Bear, Serpant, or Wolf are pretty good, and CChamp has awesome ones).

Sinfire Titan
2009-05-05, 09:22 PM
If you are going Druid 20 with VoP, don't use Barbarian on the other side. Use Totemist or Incarnate 20, it will cover far more weaknesses than you need to worry about. You'll even conserve on spells if you go Incarnate, and won't need to use Wild Shape at all if you are a Totemist.

Jack_Simth
2009-05-05, 09:41 PM
Barbarian 5/Warshaper 5/Master of many forms 10 // Druid 20 with Vow of Poverty?

That'll be mean. You're starting out at 10th, so that's a Barbarian-5/Warshaper-5//Druid-10. Unless it's a campaign where the players tend to be extremely overpowered, you'll be fine. If you wanted a slightly better build, replace Barbarian with, oh, four levels of Monk and one level of Fighter (or Ranger, or...). You lose one point of BAB, but you still qualify for Warshaper at 5th, and the Monk levels give you Wis to AC (which applies regardless of form), plus a much improved Reflex save, plus Evasion and a handful of other useful class features (such as the ability to use "any part of your body" as an unarmed strike - which means on a full attack, without Flurry, you'll have two or three attacks plus all your natural weapons (as secondary weapons) - and Pounce from turning into a critter that has it - not hard for you to get ten attacks in a round). If being Lawful doesn't sit well with you, replace a handful of the Barbarian levels with Ninja levels (you want at least two ninja levels - grants: Wis to AC, a little Sudden Strike to spice up your Pounce, and swift-action invisibility a few times per day).

Really, though - as a Druid-10, you can stay in Wild Shape all day (and then some). As a Warshaper-5, you've got Fast Healing, and can change forms in the middle of your duration without using another use (unless you change back). As Wildshape replaces your physical ability scores, you've got two important attributes: Wisdom (casting) and Con (HP). As a Vow of Poverty character, all your "equipment" works regardless of what form you're in.

You'll be fine. You might want to look at Complete Mage for the Dimensional Jaunt Reserve Feat (to teleport short distances), but you'll be fine unless the game requires you to be particularly cheesed out.

JaxGaret
2009-05-05, 09:46 PM
VoP is considerably underpowered, whether normal or Gestalt.

VoP has been calculated to be worth approximately 80% of WBL (it varies by level, 80% is an average), if you convert its benefits into comparable equipment.

Chronos
2009-05-05, 10:31 PM
VoP has been calculated to be worth approximately 80% of WBL (it varies by level, 80% is an average), if you convert its benefits into comparable equipment.And you don't even get to choose what that 80% is. Druid is hurt less by it than other classes, but you're still better off with real equipment and a bunch of wilding clasps. From a powergaming point of view, Vow of Poverty is a terrible idea.

However, if you want to go without items for reasons other than power, then Vow of Poverty makes your character playable, even if not as strong as a normal character. And as a gestalt druid, you have enough power that you can certainly afford to give up some. So go for it.

Salt_Crow
2009-05-05, 10:32 PM
No Shapechange hurts with VoP druids XD

monty
2009-05-05, 10:56 PM
four levels of Monk

You mean swordsage, right? Among other things, I don't see combining monk, druid, and VoP very easily in terms of alignment.

Personally, I'd go Swordsage 2 / Totemist 2 / Fighter 1, with the fighter level replaceable by pretty much anything if you want something else.

Talic
2009-05-05, 11:33 PM
You mean swordsage, right? Among other things, I don't see combining monk, druid, and VoP very easily in terms of alignment.

Personally, I'd go Swordsage 2 / Totemist 2 / Fighter 1, with the fighter level replaceable by pretty much anything if you want something else.
Not Swordsage. At least, not unless your armor doesn't meld. Gotta have the light armor for swordsage wis to AC.

That said, the typical non-gestalt MoMF sacrifices Wis (13-14) for Con. Because he will likely not see higher than level 3 spells, they tand to stay on defensive buff castings, which don't benefit nearly as much from high Wis.


This character concept strikes me as "too many hats".

I'd recommend either:
Druid 5/MoMF 7/Warshaper 5/Swordsage 3 // Warblade 20
(for melee strengths. Note that MoMF 7 is the key level, as it gives you extraordinary abilities. 3 levels of Swordsage with a final initiator level of 11 outweigh its ability. Note, 20 levels of Warblade will result in some strong maneuvers as well. Strong all around saves, Full BAB, and D12 hd for all levels)

Or focus on a caster theme, with 5 hierophant levels, 20 druid levels, and whatever else you like to taste.

monty
2009-05-05, 11:37 PM
Not Swordsage. At least, not unless your armor doesn't meld. Gotta have the light armor for swordsage wis to AC.

Well, I've personally never seen anyone rule it that way in a game, because it makes no sense at all.

Talic
2009-05-05, 11:39 PM
Well, I've personally never seen anyone rule it that way in a game, because it makes no sense at all.

Agreed. Just sayin'.

^.^

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-05-05, 11:44 PM
Not Swordsage. At least, not unless your armor doesn't meld. Gotta have the light armor for swordsage wis to AC.That is overly-intensive RAW. The only time I support it is if someone tries to stack Monk and Swordsage.
That said, the typical non-gestalt MoMF sacrifices Wis (13-14) for Con. Because he will likely not see higher than level 3 spells, they tand to stay on defensive buff castings, which don't benefit nearly as much from high Wis.But he gets full casting and massive Wildshape. I'd say stick with self/party-buffing and then making the Fighter cry, which means that you need to focus on both Wis(spells/day and Will saves) and Con(HP).
This character concept strikes me as "too many hats".

I'd recommend either:
Druid 5/MoMF 7/Warshaper 5/Swordsage 3 // Warblade 20
(for melee strengths. Note that MoMF 7 is the key level, as it gives you extraordinary abilities. 3 levels of Swordsage with a final initiator level of 11 outweigh its ability. Note, 20 levels of Warblade will result in some strong maneuvers as well. Strong all around saves, Full BAB, and D12 hd for all levels)The issue here is the lack of HD for Wildshape. Dumping 8 levels on things that don't advance it hurts.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-05-06, 12:52 AM
I'd stick with the original build idea, but start out Druid 10// Barbarian 5/ Warshaper 3/ Master of Many Forms 2, using Wolf Totem Barbarian (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wolfTotemClassFeatures ) to get Improved Trip. Your primary combat form should be a Cave Troll until level 12, then you can switch to War Troll. Go human and get flaws if you can, take Power Attack, Alertness, Endurance, Exalted Companion, Natural Bond, Natural Spell, and Leap Attack. Get a Celestial Fleshraker as your animal companion, it will be at -4 but Natural Bond's +3 will reduce it down to only -1. Since your companion is good aligned and smart enough, it can also take VoP.

Another idea would be to use the Druidic Avenger (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#druidVariantDruidicAve nger) variant and use Unarmed Swordsage or Monk instead of Barbarian. You could even go Deadly Hunter Druid with Wild Shape Ranger (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#otherClassVariants) into Master of Many Forms.

Riffington
2009-05-06, 09:05 PM
That is overly-intensive RAW.

And if you're that intensive, you can't do swordsage in gestalt by RAW.

monty
2009-05-06, 09:26 PM
And if you're that intensive, you can't do swordsage in gestalt by RAW.

Maybe I'm missing something, but I can't see why not.

Samb
2009-05-06, 09:34 PM
VoP for any character that needs gear is underpowered. Unless you keep asking your teammates for a sword when combat starts (and waste actions doing so) it just isn't feasible. Most DM will make some exceptions if you ask them for the bare essentials.

Of course there are ways to change feats around, like that trick with those two 8th level spells in fiendish codex I, or even a liberal interpretation of psychic reformation. Still, if feats made a better fighter, fighters would be tier 3 class, so some info on how abundant magic items are in your world.

Riffington
2009-05-06, 10:10 PM
Maybe I'm missing something, but I can't see why not.

It allows the 11 standard classes, as well as variant standard classes defined in Unearthed Arcana. Normally, if something works in light armor it works in no armor; if you rule otherwise, you are unusual. So assuming that kind of quirky ruling style: normally, if you add other classes as options, they are valid additional choices, but Unearthed Arcana presents new standard classes and yet feels the need to specifically mention that these new ones are valid choices. Logically (with this odd ruling style) you could assume that since it only allows the ones in itself and not ones in other books, those other ones aren't legal. You could further back it up claiming that it is forbidding all Prcs that are combos of classes, and would similarly have also forbidden all "new standard classes" that are combos of classes if it were going to allow "new standard classes at all".

I do not endorse this ruling or the "swordsage needs armor" ruling - both are silly.

monty
2009-05-06, 10:16 PM
It allows the 11 standard classes, as well as variant standard classes defined in Unearthed Arcana.

I just searched the SRD for "standard class," and the context of every time that phrase is used strongly implies that it means "non-variant." Also, if you look at Prestige Classes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/prestigeClasses.htm), it defines "base class" as "one of the standard eleven classes." So unless you want to also assume that other classes are not base classes, maybe it's more reasonable to assume that that's not what they meant.

Jack_Simth
2009-05-07, 06:40 AM
You mean swordsage, right? Among other things, I don't see combining monk, druid, and VoP very easily in terms of alignment.

Hmm, right. Ninja, then. Swordsage gives nifties, but you'll be stuck with 2nd-4th level nifties only given this particular build plan (due to the requirement for +4 BAB for Warshaper at 5th), so you'd be stuck with, at best, 2nd level stances and maneuvers (unless you're spending feats on them). Now, there is some decent stuff in that range - but nothing that's really worth 2d6 Sudden Strike, the ability to go Invisible as a swift action several times per day (wisdom based - it'll end up being a lot), and the better class skill list.

Talic
2009-05-07, 07:21 AM
But he gets full casting and massive Wildshape. I'd say stick with self/party-buffing and then making the Fighter cry, which means that you need to focus on both Wis(spells/day and Will saves) and Con(HP).Here's the problem. Either he's using his wildshape and attacking, or he's casting. Can't do both. When he's got the options of a high caster level druid, casting is almost ALWAYS the better option. This means that, in most cases, all his PrC levels are wasted.

The issue here is the lack of HD for Wildshape. Dumping 8 levels on things that don't advance it hurts.
Nature's warrior 3 then, and throw druid up to level 10. Final build would look like:
Druid 5 / MoMF 7 / Nature's warrior 3 / Druid 6-10 (or MoMF 10, Druid 7)
Warblade 15 / Warshaper 5 (or Warblade 18 / Warshaper 2)

If HD is that big an issue, there's full progression, cast up to 5th level spells (wis 15 minimum by level 19), and markets itself as a melee battleboat, which is what it looks like the OP wants, based on his PrC selection.

All the druid spells are going to do is rain on that parade, by overshadowing it.