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Olo Demonsbane
2009-05-07, 04:25 PM
I came up with this while designing a Tippy-esque army. We stopped after I finished this and we had level 27 balors rampaging around the countryside :smalleek:


The XP Machine; 90000 gp

Greater Planar Binding Trap; (8x15x500=60000 gp)
Orb of Force Trap; (4x7x500=14000 gp)
Permanent binding circle in the middle of the “machine”; (~16000 gp)

How it works:
1. The machine calls a pit fiend into the circle.
2. A commoner decides that he wants to go see what this interesting machine that everyone is talking about is.
3. He sees the machine, and pulls the lever on the side.
4. This triggers the Orb trap, dealing 7d6 damage to the Pit Fiend.
5. The commoner, being persistent, keeps pulling the lever.
6. On average, it takes about 10 or 11 shocks to kill it. (255=7d6X; 255=24.5X; 10.408=X)
7. The commoner gains a lot of XP.
8. And…guess what? The commoner can do it again, and again, and again…until he reaches 27th level, when you no longer gain XP from defeating Pit Fiends.

Questions, Comments?

Myou
2009-05-07, 04:29 PM
He didn't attack the balor or in any way overcome it, the mage who created the 'machine' did. So he doesn't get XP.

Olo Demonsbane
2009-05-07, 04:35 PM
The Trap is just a stationary version of an at-will orb of force magic item. Would it be better if we just used those?

Or how about a wand. You would just have to pay if you wanted to use it, and therefore couldnt make every commoner on the face of the earth epic leveled.

Justin B.
2009-05-07, 04:39 PM
I believe somewhere the EXP rules state that one has to be threatened or overcome a challenge in some way to gain EXP. This machine doesn't seem to provide either challenge or any sort of threat.

Zeful
2009-05-07, 04:43 PM
I believe somewhere the EXP rules state that one has to be threatened or overcome a challenge in some way to gain EXP. This machine doesn't seem to provide either challenge or any sort of threat.

Since it's purpose is to subvert both the threat and the challenge of the Pit Fiend, you should get negative exp capable of de-leveling you.

Olo Demonsbane
2009-05-07, 04:55 PM
I just reread this entire section of the DMG. The only thing that it can do is lower the EL by 2 and give Half as much XP. Thanks for the catch though.

Myou
2009-05-07, 04:57 PM
Since it's purpose is to subvert both the threat and the challenge of the Pit Fiend, you should get negative exp capable of de-leveling you.

Rofl.

A cruel but appropriate response. :3


I just reread this entire section of the DMG. The only thing that it can do is lower the EL by 2 and give Half as much XP. Thanks for the catch though.

You're forgetting that if there's no challenge, there's no XP.

Crow
2009-05-07, 05:06 PM
Absolutely wrong. No challenge, No XP.

RTGoodman
2009-05-07, 05:17 PM
Absolutely wrong. No challenge, No XP.

That. Also, I don't think you can get XP (by the chart in the DMG, at least) from defeating things more than 8-10 levels higher than you. I mean, unless you're talking about starting with a Commoner 12 or something...

Halna LeGavilk
2009-05-07, 05:36 PM
Nah. Better yet:

1. make a thirty-to-forty foot high box (high enough to do damage, but not high enough to kill you.) A trap door will have to be built about three-to-five feet up, low enough that the frogs won't die from the fall (make sure it opens inward).
2. Make a spell that summons a lot of frogs. 10 million should do.
3.Summon the frogs into the pit. Since frogs don't take up any vertical space (it's in the MM, can't find it on the SRD), you can have an unlimited number of frogs.
4. Cast a stoneskin spell on yourself and ready a teleportation spell. Jump down into the box. The damage from you falling on the frogs will instantly kill many frogs, and since each frog is 1/8 of a challenge rating, it adds up.
5. Gain a crapload of experience.

-Baldur-
2009-05-07, 05:42 PM
That. Also, I don't think you can get XP (by the chart in the DMG, at least) from defeating things more than 8-10 levels higher than you. I mean, unless you're talking about starting with a Commoner 12 or something...

I think if he was THREATENED to pull the lever for the next year, this may qualify as the threat part of the equation.

Then he could run away after he's pulled the lever, thus having OVERCAME the obstacle.

I am brilliant. lol *rolls eyes*

Tengu_temp
2009-05-07, 05:51 PM
Nah. Better yet:

1. make a thirty-to-forty foot high box (high enough to do damage, but not high enough to kill you.) A trap door will have to be built about three-to-five feet up, low enough that the frogs won't die from the fall (make sure it opens inward).
2. Make a spell that summons a lot of frogs. 10 million should do.
3.Summon the frogs into the pit. Since frogs don't take up any vertical space (it's in the MM, can't find it on the SRD), you can have an unlimited number of frogs.
4. Cast a stoneskin spell on yourself and ready a teleportation spell. Jump down into the box. The damage from you falling on the frogs will instantly kill many frogs, and since each frog is 1/8 of a challenge rating, it adds up.
5. Gain a crapload of experience.

I think that by RAW, this would kill only the top frog - and not by RAW, no DM would give you experience for that. Also for the reason that at the level when you can pull this trick off 1/8 CR creatures no longer give any xp.

Myrmex
2009-05-07, 06:17 PM
Step 1. Get some trolls.
Step 2. Give them rings of sustenance.
Step 3. Cast Insanity (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/insanity.htm) on them.
Step 4. ???
Step 5. Profit!







For those who can't figure out how this works:
Trolls have regeneration, meaning a troll can't kill another troll without. Rings of sustenance negates the need to eat or drink (which trolls do need to do, being giants and not outsiders). Insanity is a permanent confusion effect, which has a chance, each round, to force one of the trolls to attack the nearest living creature (another troll). Confused creatures automatically retaliate against the creature that attacked them the round prior. So now you have a bunch of trolls that will do nothing but beat each other into the negatives forever.

Zeful
2009-05-07, 08:50 PM
I just reread this entire section of the DMG. The only thing that it can do is lower the EL by 2 and give Half as much XP. Thanks for the catch though.

Actually with the Ad Hoc rules, experience can be given in any amount the DM felt like based on the situation.

Shpadoinkle
2009-05-07, 10:34 PM
I'm going to have to side with the "there's no challenge in it so you get no XP for it" argument here. The entire purpose of the machine is to completely remove all challenge from the encounter, and you get experience for overcoming challanges, therefore no challenge = no XP. If you houserule that the person doing it would get XP for it anyway, you might as well just houserule that they were born at level 27 and skip the middleman.

Also, I imagine the pit fiends would be kinda pissed off that they were being summoned constantly for no reason other than to serve as cattle. I'd expect the life of the creator of such a machine to end very unpleasantly not long after he started using it.

Olo Demonsbane
2009-05-07, 10:48 PM
All right, It doesn't work, never mind.

How about this:

Same thing, only you are inside the box with the Pit Fiend and the Box is very long. With an antimagic field at the other end where the Devil is. Summoned AFTER he got there. He comes charging at you...if you dont pull the lever, you will die. This lever is a lot more powerfull than the previous one, killing the Pit fiend in one shot.


Would that work? Now there is some challenge. Even if it only give 10% experiance, that would only mean that you have to kill 10 times as more.

And yes, I know, the Nine Lords are coming for me :smalleek:

tyckspoon
2009-05-07, 10:53 PM
The 'official' Tippyverse XP machine is to just line up a bunch of people and have them nonlethally beat the crap out each other with a trap of Cure X Wounds nearby to revive the losers and prep everybody for the next round. It fits the basic requirements for gaining xp (the participants are acting directly against an equal opponent); even if you sensibly give the minimum possible xp for it because it's nonlethal and has no particular consequences for winning/losing, the participants will still level sooner or later. They can keep doing it as long as they need to, and they'll never outlevel their opponents.


Would that work?
I would say no. The lever-puller is still not really in danger, assuming you let him know when the demon is going to show up. He gets a surprise round, the demon doesn't. Lever gets pulled before the demon ever acts (alternately, the lever guy readies an action to pull the lever as soon as the demon steps out of the AMF.) You need the lever-dude to be in a situation where the demon might actually touch him, which means you probably don't want to be using pit fiends/balors. Start with manes/lemurs/dretches and summon them within a move action of the lever guy. Have them roll initiative. If leverdude wins, he pulls the lever and gets XP. If he loses, the weak demon tries to maul him. Maybe he survives that and gets to pull the lever anyway. Change up to CR-appropriate demons as the lever-monkey levels.

Zeful
2009-05-07, 11:03 PM
The 'official' Tippyverse XP machine is to just line up a bunch of people and have them nonlethally beat the crap out each other with a trap of Cure X Wounds nearby to revive the losers and prep everybody for the next round. It fits the basic requirements for gaining xp (the participants are acting directly against an equal opponent); even if you sensibly give the minimum possible xp for it because it's nonlethal and has no particular consequences for winning/losing, the participants will still level sooner or later. They can keep doing it as long as they need to, and they'll never outlevel their opponents.

Tippyverse militaries are trained thusly.
Sergeant: Here are your rings of sustenance and merciful weapon. After this briefing you will go to The Pit, where you will train in a live combat situation. This training will only end when you can fight your way out through higher ranking officers. Good luck.

JoshuaZ
2009-05-07, 11:14 PM
The idea of XP is that you are getting better at stuff because you have more experience (hence the term experience points). If a fighter fights a lot he should get better at fighting. I know this isn't a perfect simulation of that but that's the basic motivation behind xp. That's not substantially occurring with this balor killing machine.

I'd be inclined to argue that the hypothetical Tippy version mentioned by _ is actually giving the people experience fighting. In that situation, it thus makes sense that they should get XP. People training to fight get better at fighting if they train rigorously, even if the actual danger is low.

Kurald Galain
2009-05-08, 03:44 AM
That. Also, I don't think you can get XP (by the chart in the DMG, at least) from defeating things more than 8-10 levels higher than you. I mean, unless you're talking about starting with a Commoner 12 or something...

That doesn't help - you can just build two Machines, stick the pit fiend in one, and use a level-10 monster for the other.

Omegonthesane
2009-05-08, 04:46 AM
This whole thread reinforces my belief that someone determined to turn every humanoid in the world into an Epic-level player character would make a GREAT campaign antagonist.

Especially given the inherent cruelty of throwing everyone old enough to gain class levels into a pit to fight until they become real warriors.

That said, it wouldn't work too well for wizzards... how would a Wizard gain XP without any risk of inflicting or suffering death? Maybe Lord Makeyouallepic have to research some non-lethal evocations...

Olo Demonsbane
2009-05-08, 08:37 AM
A) It is a wand-thingy of orb of force...You can hit something in an AMF.

B) There is some challenge. If you miss it three times in a row, it can get out of the AMF and blow you to bits.


But yeah, the Tippy-verse idea is probably a better idea...I like this one though...you are playing what appears to be a video game and gaining magical powers :smallbiggrin:

Randel
2009-05-08, 04:01 PM
Actually, after a few dozen times of summoning Pit Fiends and killing them with orbs of force, eventually some super high-level demon monster is going to show up and demand who's messing with his Pit Fiend servants.

At which point the level 1 commoner/ level 23 button-pusher guy (a base class that provides absolutly no extra hit points attack or defense bonuses special abilities or feats even from just leveling up) will get to face off against some freaky epic level monster who will probably destroy the commoner by looking at him.

At which point the Epic SuperMonster will get lots of XP from killing the Epic commoner/button-pusher and then proceed to make his own private beach-front property using the blood of the innocent in place of an ocean and their ground up bones in place of sand.

Chronos
2009-05-08, 04:27 PM
even if you sensibly give the minimum possible xp for it because it's nonlethal and has no particular consequences for winning/losing, the participants will still level sooner or later.The minimum possible xp is zero. Better amend that "sooner or later" to "a lot later".

Omegonthesane
2009-05-08, 05:14 PM
Actually, after a few dozen times of summoning Pit Fiends and killing them with orbs of force, eventually some super high-level demon monster is going to show up and demand who's messing with his Pit Fiend servants.

At which point the level 1 commoner/ level 23 button-pusher guy (a base class that provides absolutly no extra hit points attack or defense bonuses special abilities or feats even from just leveling up) will get to face off against some freaky epic level monster who will probably destroy the commoner by looking at him.

At which point the Epic SuperMonster will get lots of XP from killing the Epic commoner/button-pusher and then proceed to make his own private beach-front property using the blood of the innocent in place of an ocean and their ground up bones in place of sand.
...Except that it'll be a 1 commoner / 26 Wizard armed with Wish at the absolute least, not to mention the thousand other 1 commoner / 26 (Insert any legitimate PC class) who will be fighting alongside him. If you don't want this machine to do exactly what it is meant to do, you should just veto it entirely, not try to justify a malfunction.

Logically, if you're going to deny EXP for using a machine to defeat your opponents instead of using your own power, then anything killed or charmed with a wand provides zero XP. After all, a wand isn't the user's own power is it?


The minimum possible xp is zero. Better amend that "sooner or later" to "a lot later"
The minimum reasonable XP, however, is non-zero - like it or not, soldiers will benefit from such training, regardless of the danger or lack thereof it poses to them.

Stormthorn
2009-05-08, 05:18 PM
Absolutely wrong. No challenge, No XP.


New and improved version fixed that by attaching an angry houscat to the machine.

The houscat also has a level in commoner.

The commoner is challenged in getting to the machine to use it with a cat attacking him. The cat is challenged with defending its territory from a commoner. Both gain Exp. Yeaaaa!

monty
2009-05-08, 05:19 PM
Logically, if you're going to deny EXP for using a machine to defeat your opponents instead of using your own power, then anything killed or charmed with a wand provides zero XP. After all, a wand isn't the user's own power is it?

It's not because you're using a wand, it's because you're killing a trapped enemy with no way of fighting back. Remember, CR stands for challenge rating - if there's no challenge, there should be no experience.

AslanCross
2009-05-08, 07:09 PM
It's not because you're using a wand, it's because you're killing a trapped enemy with no way of fighting back. Remember, CR stands for challenge rating - if there's no challenge, there should be no experience.

This. No sane DM would consider these challenges.

Shpadoinkle
2009-05-08, 07:33 PM
New and improved version fixed that by attaching an angry houscat to the machine.

The houscat also has a level in commoner.

The commoner is challenged in getting to the machine to use it with a cat attacking him. The cat is challenged with defending its territory from a commoner. Both gain Exp. Yeaaaa!

Killing the pit feind is still not a challenge in the slightest. The commoner would only get XP for overcoming the challenge the cat represents.

lesser_minion
2009-05-08, 07:41 PM
This might work in 4e, although you would have to work out the experience value of the trap and subtract that from the XP award for the pit fiend.

However, you would probably end up losing XP even though 4e is not supposed to go around de-levelling you...

Olo Demonsbane
2009-05-08, 08:51 PM
Ok, fine, whatever, I quit.


Stupid RAI...