Magic?

[Silence]

So, I've noticed a few threads talking about magic, and recently I've had friends believe in some stuff that is, well, magic. I have a friend that claims that she has the power to control the element of Earth. Problem is, she lives five hours away. I'm pretty interested in this stuff at this point, and want to learn a bit more about it.

Now, I would just like to help out the mods, who do a wonderfully fine job moderating this forum, by saying that discussion of religion is not gonna happen. It's gonna end up with you having a big old {scrubbed} on the page, and a few infraction points. Just don't do it.

Anyway, down to business. I'm a logical person. I like logical stuff. I need some argument for and against the existence to magic of any kind (Besides religious magic. If you want to call it that.). Links are very helpful, also.

Big thanks y'all!

[imp_fireball]

It probably would have been more fun to discuss how vancian magic is plausible in a D&D setting.

Religious discussion is inevitable, because anything that is somewhat popularized and considered 'magic' is also likely considered a miracle and thus something divine and ultimately religious in nature.

Any 'magic' appearing in pop culture is the result of magicians performing stunts to make it so.

[Silence]

It probably would have been more fun to discuss how vancian magic is plausible in a D&D setting.

Religious discussion is inevitable, because anything that is somewhat popularized and considered 'magic' is also likely considered a miracle and thus something divine and ultimately religious in nature.

Any 'magic' appearing in pop culture is the result of magicians performing stunts to make it so.

Three things.

1. I don't really care what's more fun. I have things I need to sort out. You can make you own thread.:smalltongue:

2. All the other threads worked. I don't see why not this one. Besides, I'm talking about non-religious magic.

3. I'm not talking about smoke and mirrors. I'm talking about magic.

[LurkerInPlayground]

So, I've noticed a few threads talking about magic, and recently I've had friends believe in some stuff that is, well, magic. I have a friend that claims that she has the power to control the element of Earth. Problem is, she lives five hours away. I'm pretty interested in this stuff at this point, and want to learn a bit more about it.

Now, I would just like to help out the mods, who do a wonderfully fine job moderating this forum, by saying that discussion of religion is not gonna happen. It's gonna end up with you having a big old {scrubbed} on the page, and a few infraction points. Just don't do it.

Anyway, down to business. I'm a logical person. I like logical stuff. I need some argument for and against the existence to magic of any kind (Besides religious magic. If you want to call it that.). Links are very helpful, also.

Big thanks y'all!
Dude. You have picked one of my favorite topics ever.

First off there's a the term called "magical thinking." Long story short, it confuses correlation with causation, although that may be a bit crude. It's more like people don't develop the critical thinking that would argue against a casual link.

Basically, poking a voodoo doll that looks like you should do bad things to you by some supernatural mechanism. Sympathetic magic.

It doesn't have to be anything physical, mind you. You can do the same thing with words or ideas. "The element of Earth," in your given example is exactly this. She's probably combining wishful thinking with cherry-picked experiences and waxing poetic about it.

Religion is rife with examples of this sort of thing, even if it pretends that it doesn't. But given the global ban on anything religious ever, I can't really elucidate to your satisfaction.

As a theme in stories, this is how magic is used. And the best writers I've seen often have used McGuffin method of subjectively manipulating reality. A somewhat "postmodern" notion, except that in stories like Sandman, it really makes no claim to factual accuracy, instead taking on connotations about the power of humanity's mythmaking and the nature of belief.

Planescape: Torment uses a similar theme.

There's also the famed quote by Arthur C. Clarke. "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." Simply put, if your knowledge is arcane enough to the average person, then it may as well seem like you've done something supernatural -- with only the external appearances and correlations of an act to give any clue as to what you did.

It's appropriate then that "wizardry" is synonymous with having prodigious skill or talent.

Anyway, it's likewise notable that stage magicians often use misdirection to fool the audience while they secretly do the real work of their illusion. You know the bit, waving their hand mysteriously or somesuch.

[Silence]

So, Lurker, you think that by believing in something, truly, that you can make it happen?

Damn, that makes it really hard for us born skeptics....

Any logical proof or arguments?

[LurkerInPlayground]

So, Lurker, you think that by believing in something, truly, that you can make it happen?

Damn, that makes it really hard for us born skeptics....

Any logical proof or arguments?
No, I don't.

I believe there is an objective reality. A tree falling a forest makes a noise, whether I believe it or not. But that's beside the point I'm trying to make.

The point is that magic is entirely a matter of perception and is often a matter of reputation. I'm giving to you how it's often used to explore themes in art or to explain the psychological process behind what people think of as magic.

Magic is the cop-out explanation people use when they are trying to understand reality didactically and trying to connect correlation with causation. Or because they limit their imagination to a single explanation simply because they can't think of any others and will go with the explanation they feel most comfortable with.

In fantasy literature, magicians are either cheats who don't really understand what they're doing or are prodigiously wise and knowledgeable.

Magicians of the former category merely know that following the recipe has some correlation to an effect. In pulp fantasy, these magicians are often sorcerer-priests. And more often they not, they're immoral bullies who use the power of fear to control people. In a way, this is truth in art. Because there are people who do practice this sort of thing in real life. They have only a haphazard understanding of reality and its processes. They can only comprehend reality at the most concrete and symbolic level -- and are severely lacking in critical thinking skills.

The more virtuous wizards and such might actually understand what it is they do, they're more like scientists -- it's just that to the common people, what these people understand is so abstract and unfathomable that they give these wizards a reputation for mysticism. Think of how most people think of Albert Einstein or Stephan Hawking. Most people simply sit in awe of them.

Think of the Hadron Collider and all the talk about it imploding the universe or destroying the planet or whatever. As far as the common person is concerned, it's this weird thing that shoot energy or something. It's vaguely sinister. That is magic.

The wizards of LOTR fall into the latter category, as most of their "magic" is really just implied to be a sort of superhuman insight and knowledge far in advance of the average bumpkin knows or understands. Elves in the setting don't see what they do as being supernatural, so the notion of "elf magic" confuses them. But to everybody else, elves are a distant and ethereal sort of people.

[Collin152]

So, Lurker, you think that by believing in something, truly, that you can make it happen?

Damn, that makes it really hard for us born skeptics....

Any logical proof or arguments?

I've got a number of theories and anecdotal evidences myself.
I have the impression that magic manifests itself in one of, or possibly both of, two ways.
One, the understanding and prediction of things that defy predictability to the extent that one may feel they have controlled it, and/or the actual manipulation of probability.

To this extent, I've dreamed accurate visions of the future the day before the improbable and unexpected have occured (and I don't mean Deja Vu, I mean that I was thinking about the dream the entire day and then the events of the dream unfold before me independant of my action), but on the other hand, I feel that I have altered reality as well; when I "shout" people's names in my head, they often respond. I've woken people up with this, called them to me, and it always seems to happen instantaneously and inexplicably, and always in defiance of the expected.

[Silence]

Interesting stuff, guys. Collin, could you go into a bit more detail about these occurences.

[LurkerInPlayground]

To take the example of the pulp fantasy sorcerer-priest further, they're not always mentally stunted concrete-thinkers who operate purely on a symbolic level. Sometimes this type of fictional character does legitimately understand the lack in their knowledge -- but they simply don't care because they have a monopoly on a power that nobody else does. As such, they can bamboozle or cheat the common folk or make them bow in submission.

Think of Thulsa Doom in Conan The Barbarian and you will sort of start to get the picture.

Magic can be portrayed as ultra-advanced knowledge. But as often as not, it's a literary device to explore the nature of belief.

[KnightDisciple]

*snip*
In fantasy literature, magicians are either cheats who don't really understand what they're doing or are prodigiously wise and knowledgeable.

Magicians of the former category merely know that following the recipe has some correlation to an effect. In pulp fantasy, these magicians are often sorcerer-priests. And more often they not, they're immoral bullies who use the power of fear to control people. In a way, this is truth in art. Because there are people who do practice this sort of thing in real life. They have only a haphazard understanding of reality and its processes. They can only comprehend reality at the most concrete and symbolic level -- and are severely lacking in critical thinking skills.

The more virtuous wizards and such might actually understand what it is they do, they're more like scientists -- it's just that to the common people, what these people understand is so abstract and unfathomable that they give these wizards a reputation for mysticism. Think of how most people think of Albert Einstein or Stephan Hawking. Most people simply sit in awe of them.

Think of the Hadron Collider and all the talk about it imploding the universe or destroying the planet or whatever. As far as the common person is concerned, it's this weird thing that shoot energy or something. It's vaguely sinister. That is magic.

The wizards of LOTR fall into the latter category, as most of their "magic" is really just implied to be a sort of superhuman insight and knowledge far in advance of the average bumpkin knows or understands. Elves in the setting don't see what they do as being supernatural, so the notion of "elf magic" confuses them. But to everybody else, elves are a distant and ethereal sort of people.

There's more than just the two types here, though.

You're forgetting settings like the Dresdenverse, where magic just is. People of every strip use it. Harry Dresden, for instance, is neither a "cheat who doesn't really understand what he's doing" or "prodigiously wise and knowledgeable". He's a pretty average guy just trying to do the right thing.

LOTR isn't a perfect example either, since those like Aragorn can hardly be classed "bumpkins". Even Elves aren't capable of the same workings as wizards. Because wizards aren't human, they're basically angels made flesh. Yes, part of it is greater understanding, but I understand part of it to be a deeper connection to the base forces of the universe.

Several other fantasy universes fall in between. Anything that uses vaguely Vancian systems tends to have people who just know how magic works, because it's a formulaic system. They're neither cheats, nor necessarily Stephen Hawking.

David Weber's War God series. The magic in that world isn't quite Vancian, but it's still understandable to the practitioners. The mages have inborn gifts of power that they learn to control, but seem to run the gambit of evil to good, as well as intelligence.

So basically, the categories you've set up here are, at best, massively oversimplified.

[Collin152]

Interesting stuff, guys. Collin, could you go into a bit more detail about these occurences.

Well, for instance... I had a dream of my first kiss the night before it happened. Now, mind, this is not by any means a common aspect of my dreams, and I had only met the person the previous day. But I woke up and knew at once, "that dream was a vision." I even said to myself a line I stole from some religious book, "I have dreamed a dream, or in other words, I have seen a vision." I figured it was symbolic and metaphorical, and spent the day puzzling it out. I diddn't even talk with the guy, but then suddenly Bam! out of nowhere he grabs me and kisses me. not two seconds before? I was still thinking about what my dream meant.

That's by far the example I can describe most clearly, and it was a very recent occurance, too.

But I have a lot of smaller, insignificant predictions too. I quote TV shows and have that episode come on later that same day pretty often, almost daily back when I watched TV. Once I looked up and read the transcript for an episode so I could remember the lines that followed the one I remembered, and as I read, that episode was announced to be on later tonight.
Egasp!

But yeah. I've begun keeping a log of my dreams so to better have a record of any further prophetic dreams.

[LurkerInPlayground]

There's more than just the two types here, though.

You're forgetting settings like the Dresdenverse, where magic just is. People of every strip use it. Harry Dresden, for instance, is neither a "cheat who doesn't really understand what he's doing" or "prodigiously wise and knowledgeable". He's a pretty average guy just trying to do the right thing.

LOTR isn't a perfect example either, since those like Aragorn can hardly be classed "bumpkins". Even Elves aren't capable of the same workings as wizards. Because wizards aren't human, they're basically angels made flesh. Yes, part of it is greater understanding, but I understand part of it to be a deeper connection to the base forces of the universe.

Several other fantasy universes fall in between. Anything that uses vaguely Vancian systems tends to have people who just know how magic works, because it's a formulaic system. They're neither cheats, nor necessarily Stephen Hawking.

David Weber's War God series. The magic in that world isn't quite Vancian, but it's still understandable to the practitioners. The mages have inborn gifts of power that they learn to control, but seem to run the gambit of evil to good, as well as intelligence.

So basically, the categories you've set up here are, at best, massively oversimplified.
Despite what you might think, you have no real objections there.

The Hadron Collider "just is." It works. And if you were to simply list out a number of tasks that you procedurally follow like a ritual, I'm sure you could replicate it without real understanding -- to varying degrees of success.

That's what magical thinking is -- following a ritual and all the trappings of correlation to get power. The bad guys abuse this power by promoting ignorance for personal gain. The examples I give are simply the breakdown of "good guys" and "bad guys" and what they do with power.

The Dresden Files is probably the more modernist take, to be sure, but you're not really saying anything I haven't already accounted for in spirit.

The elves and wizards of LOTR are "sufficiently advanced" beings. If you prefer, they're simply god-like aliens by another name. Most people simply choose not to see things that way though.

[KnightDisciple]

Despite what you might think, you have no real objections there.

The Hadron Collider "just is." It works. And if you were to simply list out a number of tasks that you procedurally follow like a ritual, I'm sure you could replicate it without real understanding -- to varying degrees of success.

That's what magical thinking is -- following a ritual and all the trappings of correlation to get power. The bad guys abuse this power by promoting ignorance for personal gain.

The elves and wizards of LOTR are "sufficiently advanced" beings. If you prefer, they're simply god-like aliens by another name. Most people simply choose not to see things that way though.

No, there is an objection.
That objection was to the extreme dichotomy of "either an evil/ignorant cheat, or a super-wise all-understanding scientist!". Your statements left no room for the likes of Dresden, who understand at least some of the basic fundamentals of magic, but who aren't particularly wise or some such.

Here's a question: is walking magical thinking? I mean, not everyone knows the exact mechanics of how we send signals back and forth from brain to muscle and so on. The just know "I walk that way", and it happens. It's not "power" per se, but the same concept of what you're espousing seems to apply. The same goes for things like using a gun without being a gunmaker, mixing a cake recipe up (I know there are all kinds of chemistry reactions and mixing going on, but I don't really understand them). Is that magic? Or is it only this silly "magical thinking" if we tack the words "magic" or "supernatural" on there.

Elves and Maiar (that's what LOTR wizards are) are not just "sufficiently advanced" beings. They're fundamentally different from humans. They have a deep, intrinsic connection with life, the world, nature, etc. Again, Maiar are straight up angels. Just like the Valar are archangels. And so on. "Sufficiently Advanced" implies that they were, at one point, not as advanced. They weren't. They've always been this way.

[Knaight]

But yeah. I've begun keeping a log of my dreams so to better have a record of any further prophetic dreams.

Have you considered the possibility that these prophetic dreams have more to do with the pattern finding capability of the subconscious mind than actual magical prophecy? TV shows are typically aired on patterns, you may have noticed something in the guy who kissed you the day before, etc. The subconscious mind is very powerful, it can easily enough simultaneously control breathing, walking(a lot of muscles involved), talking(most of the muscle action is subconscious, and there is a lot of it), processing information on all five senses, etc. Pattern finding has been proven, the idea that it could happen in a dream, at a time when senses are not operating fully, the subconscious part of most movements(obviously not breathing, heartbeat, digestion, etc.) is minimal, and the conscious mind isn't working anywhere near as hard. These prophetic visions may indicate an exceptional pattern finding ability of the subconscious, but we all have that to some extent.

In addition, dreams can often cover a lot of material, going between multiple things quickly, having a lot of scenes, etc. so in a way some of this is sort of inevitable. It doesn't explain all of it, but pure coincidence doesn't have to, as subconscious pattern finding can. Magic does not have to be involved in this at all, just specific impressive mental capacities.

[Collin152]

Have you considered the possibility that these prophetic dreams have more to do with the pattern finding capability of the subconscious mind than actual magical prophecy? TV shows are typically aired on patterns, you may have noticed something in the guy who kissed you the day before, etc. The subconscious mind is very powerful, it can easily enough simultaneously control breathing, walking(a lot of muscles involved), talking(most of the muscle action is subconscious, and there is a lot of it), processing information on all five senses, etc. Pattern finding has been proven, the idea that it could happen in a dream, at a time when senses are not operating fully, the subconscious part of most movements(obviously not breathing, heartbeat, digestion, etc.) is minimal, and the conscious mind isn't working anywhere near as hard. These prophetic visions may indicate an exceptional pattern finding ability of the subconscious, but we all have that to some extent.

In addition, dreams can often cover a lot of material, going between multiple things quickly, having a lot of scenes, etc. so in a way some of this is sort of inevitable. It doesn't explain all of it, but pure coincidence doesn't have to, as subconscious pattern finding can. Magic does not have to be involved in this at all, just specific impressive mental capacities.

Oh, I have considered these things.
But consider the following.
TV Shows are often aired on patterns, but the quotes I deliver are always in context, and I seldom ever watched television for any number of consecutive nights.
I spoke with the boy for all of 30 seconds the previous day, enough time to exchange names and for a single innuendo to be shared. Compared with the way I interact with every other person I know, this is more than dismissible. I could have in no ways expected it, subconsciously or otherwise. Particularly considering that I'm not attractive. I certainly don't have any kind of seductive charm, and I'd barely introduced myself. Nevertheless, I saw a vision that came true within the day.

As for dreaming many things, this would only be relevent had I only remembered that part of the dream after it happened. But I had been dwelling on that particular part of the dream the entire day, knowing it to be prophetic in some way.

[LurkerInPlayground]

Have you considered the possibility that these prophetic dreams have more to do with the pattern finding capability of the subconscious mind than actual magical prophecy? TV shows are typically aired on patterns, you may have noticed something in the guy who kissed you the day before, etc. The subconscious mind is very powerful, it can easily enough simultaneously control breathing, walking(a lot of muscles involved), talking(most of the muscle action is subconscious, and there is a lot of it), processing information on all five senses, etc. Pattern finding has been proven, the idea that it could happen in a dream, at a time when senses are not operating fully, the subconscious part of most movements(obviously not breathing, heartbeat, digestion, etc.) is minimal, and the conscious mind isn't working anywhere near as hard. These prophetic visions may indicate an exceptional pattern finding ability of the subconscious, but we all have that to some extent.

In addition, dreams can often cover a lot of material, going between multiple things quickly, having a lot of scenes, etc. so in a way some of this is sort of inevitable. It doesn't explain all of it, but pure coincidence doesn't have to, as subconscious pattern finding can. Magic does not have to be involved in this at all, just specific impressive mental capacities.
To boil this and everything I've said down . . .
A kiss?!

Wow man. Like that's not a common cultural touchstone for romantic youths or anything.

That kind of dream is really more of a reflection on what you spend your waking hours caring about.

[Collin152]

To boil this and everything I've said down . . .
A kiss?!

Wow man. Like that's not a common cultural touchstone for romantic youths or anything.

You dreamed the kiss because it was what was on your mind and what you spend most of your energies caring about. The fact that these two things happened together isn't anything special

Wow, way to ignore other things I said.
One, no, no it is not what I spend most of my energies caring about. I have a life outside of lust you know.
Two. I don't dream romantic dreams. Generally, I have nightmares or I'm alone in my dreams. This was a major exception. And I defy you to say otherwise, not being the dreamer in question.
Nevermind that I acknowledged after the dream but before the incident that the dream foretold the future, and then being immediatley confirmed in that regard. An atypical dream, a belief that it would soon manifest, and a confirmation of that, all in less than 8 hours, and you chalk it up to coincidence?

[golentan]

There are a number of things. Yes, Magical Thinking is a problem that many people suffer from. The issue, is one of confusing cause and effect, or correlation and causation. Don't care any more for this discussion, moving on.

Then there's magic. Which is when one person is able to something an observer cannot replicate, or cannot understand the fundaments of. This is the technology quote from Arthur C. Clarke refers to. This is what stage magicians do, what I do (better than stage magicians, I might add), and completely unrelated to magical thinking.

Then there's *gestures to form rainbow and shiny sparkles* Magic. Which can be summed up as the universe reacting to Consciousness and or Symbolism. This is what Collin refers to (Causation is unclear. Is he imprinting on future events, causing future events, or succumbing to magical thinking in the face of coincidence [or even misrecalling a coincidence that never occurred]?). I cannot speak to this form of magic, but have seen... supporting evidence that it is possible. A simple example would be the Aikido technique of projection. Ask someone who does aikido to demonstrate, or failing that follow the steps outlined below.

1. Place your hand on a friend's shoulder. Your elbow should be pointed towards the ground

2. Have your friend put his arm in the crook of your elbow. He should then grip the wrist of the hand he used.

3. Your friend should now apply pressure directly downwards. Resist him and push back, keeping your arm as straight as possible.

3. What happened? He had mechanical advantage, and the musculature of both arms. You would have to have been many, many times stronger than him to have kept your arm straight, so don't feel bad.

4. Repeat steps 1 and 2. Now, take a deep breath, and relax. Ignore your friend. Look over his shoulder, way off into the distance. Farther you can look, the better. Fix your eyes on a spot and point at it. Now imagine your arm is a hose, and the ground is providing you with water. Feel the water rise through your feet, up to your navel, to your shoulder, out your arm. You are trying to hit the point you're looking at with the water from your arm. Breathe deep, don't force it, just relax and aim at that point.

5. Repeat step 3.

6. What happened? If you did it right, your friend had to apply many times as much force to bend your arm. If you really excelled, he was unable to bend it at all (I have had partners whose legs and back gave out before my arm bent under the pressure being delivered). If you failed, you probably started focusing on your arm, consciously resisting. If you feel up to it, try again, but stay relaxed. Don't worry about keeping your arm straight, or resisting the pressure, just try to point at your spot.

7. Why? Beats me. All the reasons in step 3 are still true. Your friend still has mechanical advantage, the use of both arms, and can probably benchpress 50 lbs more than you. Doesn't matter, he still won't be able to bend the arm of the 80 lb. octogenarian who has trouble climbing the stairs to the Dojo. If you can explain it as a increase in the muscular efficiency due to subconscious cues, good for you. I look forward to your career in bio, as soon as you figure out a way to test and explain 500% or greater increase in efficiency in a living human, and why we don't do that all the time even though it's less tiring.

[LurkerInPlayground]

Wow, way to ignore other things I said.
One, no, no it is not what I spend most of my energies caring about. I have a life outside of lust you know.
Two. I don't dream romantic dreams. Generally, I have nightmares or I'm alone in my dreams. This was a major exception. And I defy you to say otherwise, not being the dreamer in question.
Nevermind that I acknowledged after the dream but before the incident that the dream foretold the future, and then being immediatley confirmed in that regard. An atypical dream, a belief that it would soon manifest, and a confirmation of that, all in less than 8 hours, and you chalk it up to coincidence?
*pfft* I think you doth protest too much. You dreamed of a kiss because it was just that stage in your life. Even if I'm exaggerating the role of its importance in your life, it's not like kisses are uncommon things to happen or dream about.

The fact they both happened together does not mean that there was a casual relationship other than the fact that you're a person who doesn't mind receiving kisses or dreaming about kisses.

[iamdalto]

I actually have had experiences similar to collin152's, and not all of them involved romance. I also have had the experience of quoting something before it was on the same day.
My most compelling experience for this not being some counterintuitive mental process was a dream I had at age six. I saw a detailed tour of a bathroom in Japan, with explanations as to how each of the aspects was demonstrative of Japanese culture. When I was twelve, I watched my teacher (who I had never met until that year) show pictures from her visit to that exact location, with similar explanations.

On a different note, clarify: how does this magical thinking conform to the parsimony of ideas?

[LurkerInPlayground]

On a different note, clarify: how does this magical thinking conform to the parsimony of ideas?
Other than that we have to take your word for it that it doesn't? Not a whole lot. If you have some breakthrough bit of knowledge for this, I'd like to hear it. I'm sure lots of people would.

It's just that anecdotal evidence is generally considered horribly unreliable.

Frankly, I'm surprised you remembered anything from the age of six in that much detail. We're talking about a six-year gap between your dream and the event that it allegedly predicted. This plus whatever inaccuracies you happened to pick up in your memory between then and now.

[iamdalto]

Other than that we have to take your word for it? Not a whole lot. If you have some breakthrough explanation for this, I'd like to hear it. I'm sure lots of people would.

It's just that anecdotal evidence is generally considered horribly unreliable.

Frankly, I'm surprised you remembered anything from the age of six in that much detail. We're talking about a six-year gap between your dream and the even that happened. Plus whatever static you happened to pick up in all that time until now.

However, I'm asking this mainly for the benefit of those who haven't already made up their mind that clairvoyancy is impossible or improbable. It is also curious that there is very little reason for people who have had anectdotal experiences to be similar in description--unless, of course, we are just trying to add credibility to our case. However, I have already talked to people about these experiences before reading collin's posts, and I wasn't conforming to the post, so...
Of course, you'll have to take my word for it.

Of course I may have picked up static. But I still managed to predict what my teacher was going to say when she was explaining the room.
Also, I have had several experiences similar to this one, but not nearly as inconsequential.

[LurkerInPlayground]

However, I'm asking this mainly for the benefit of those who haven't already made up their mind that clairvoyancy is impossible or improbable. It is also curious that there is very little reason for people who have had anectdotal experiences to be similar in description--unless, of course, we are just trying to add credibility to our case. However, I have already talked to people about these experiences before reading collin's posts, and I wasn't conforming to the post, so...
Of course, you'll have to take my word for it.
I'm skeptical. There's a key difference. Any person who could master the mechanism behind such a thing like "psychohistory" would win a Nobel Prize. No joke. That's incredibly useful knowledge about some hitherto unknown aspect of human psychology, *if* it existed.

The real arrogance is in claiming an explanation that you only have anecdotal evidence for. At any rate, don't bother making this an issue of "open-mindedness."


Of course I may have picked up static. But I still managed to predict what my teacher was going to say when she was explaining the room.
Also, I have had several experiences similar to this one, but not nearly as inconsequential.
Yes, well there are people who claimed to have witnessed miracles and to have been abducted by UFO's. The consistency of urban legends or testimonies doesn't speak to the truth-value of those testimonies.

Basically, you don't have the kind of evidence that doesn't make you hem-and-haw about maybe's and half-hearted speculations.

[iamdalto]

Because "psychohistory," as you call it, lies currently outside the realm of science. That doesn't make it not open to skepticism, it just makes it very difficult to test.

Nothing I have said has been arrogant. People do have experiences that do not happen in the laboratory, and assuming that all such experiences are worthless is, I beg your pardon, horribly arrogant.

Unlike UFOs and alien abductions, the anectdote I offered up was banal and inconsequential. Thus, I have no reason to defend it other than that I believe that it happened.

I am not being half-hearted. I was trying to allow for an open discussion. Please allow one.

[LurkerInPlayground]

I am not being half-hearted. I was trying to allow for an open discussion. Please allow one.
You came into the thread asking for a response. I gave you one in earnest. Your response was basically, "I wasn't talking to you anyway." Sorry, but that's not a legitimate defense of your ideas.

Your argument before that was essentially to accept the merit of your views simply on the virtue of the fact that you merely said it. Then when I said that wasn't acceptable to me, you all but told me I wasn't open-minded.

You can see why I am quickly losing patience.

[iamdalto]

Perhaps not in the most general sense. I'm sorry if I offended. However, I don't appreciate being told that anecdotes are unacceptable. They are, in my view, part of human experience. Thus, I felt that my experiences, being pertinent to the thread, had intrinsic relevance.

[Icewalker]

I'd say that these precognitive dreams and ideas are caused by a couple of things, likely explainable in more detail by someone with more of an education in neuroscience.

The first would be the predicting power of the human brain, at work in the subconscious, as already mentioned. This would explain some of it. In addition, memories can be shaped by the conscious mind.

For example, iamdalto, you had that image vaguely in your memory from the dream for years. When you saw the pictures, your mind connected it with the dream and subconsciously, perhaps with your account today even more blurred by life past since that time, the two blended somewhat. Now, this is more of a general impression of the vagueness I understand, I will make no scientific claims to this as truth, although I might be able to in a few years once I've studied neuroscience. It's more of a theory based on very rough knowledge.

[bluewind95]

Hmm, magic. I'm a believer in that, but I don't consider it supernatural. Just natural stuff we don't quite understand yet. I mean... there was a time when an eclipse was considered magic. We have so much to learn. I think someday we'll know how all that stuff works. For now, let's call it magic, and paranormal and let's continue to enjoy all the stories made by it.

That said, I've seen some weeeeeird stuff in my lifetime. Stuff that I have no idea how to explain with current knowledge. I have a theory that says all that is explained by electromagnetism or such waves (don't our very thoughts give off such waves?) but we just lack the full explanation of it and anyways, since our very thoughts should affect these things, a controlled experiment that can replicate any of it is going to be practically impossible. I won't bother to prove or disprove my theory. It's just a theory I have come up with and I really can't prove it without expensive equipment that I don't own.

But the grounds for my theory I can share, I suppose. Once, when I was a child, I took a few magnets to play with at school. I had them on my hands ALL day long. By the end of the day, I could feel that my hands got magnetized (don't ask how, I don't know either. I THOUGHT that the iron in the blood is too... well... disorganized, I suppose, to get magnetized?). When I put them together, they'd repel. The area of effect of this was just a few centimeters away from my hands, but it was quite noticeable. And it really wasn't just my hands that were affected by this freaky field. Small things would repel from my hands too. Weird thing is, they were plastic. Very tiny, but plastic nonetheless. Which I still find strange, since I thought plastic wasn't supposed to be magnetic? I'm sure a scientist could explain all of this to me, but really, in my mind, this never was a supernatural event. It was pretty natural in my mind that I could be magnetized after having magnets in my hands for well over 8 hours straight(the effect was gone by the next day). There also was this weird thing some students did with ordinary rocks. They'd hold one, and then make another go around and around it, like in orbit (it had to be done a certain way) and then they'd reverse this "orbit" and make the rock go round as many times as they'd done the other way and the rocks would be temporarily magnetized. Again, don't ask me how, I simply don't know. But it was a cool (and I would guess a very natural) thing.

Now, back to the magnetic hands... (which is perfectly possible, plausible and whatnot, again I just don't personally know how to explain it). If this thing happened, but in a much bigger scale, don't you think that things like the "poltergeist" can be easily explained? Maybe those things are like that. *shrug*

That's what I believe, though.

[Renegade Paladin]

Anyway, down to business. I'm a logical person. I like logical stuff. I need some argument for and against the existence to magic of any kind.
Then you're in a bind; magic by definition is against the rules of logic and science. If it can be explained, it isn't magic. Fortunately, it does not exist, so you don't have to worry about explaining it. :smallamused:

[averagejoe]

Anyway, down to business. I'm a logical person. I like logical stuff. I need some argument for and against the existence to magic of any kind (Besides religious magic. If you want to call it that.). Links are very helpful, also.

It seems like a logical first step would be to say what you think magic is. Lurker has made some good points, but logic is pretty useless without well defined premises.


Wow, way to ignore other things I said.
One, no, no it is not what I spend most of my energies caring about. I have a life outside of lust you know.
Two. I don't dream romantic dreams. Generally, I have nightmares or I'm alone in my dreams. This was a major exception. And I defy you to say otherwise, not being the dreamer in question.
Nevermind that I acknowledged after the dream but before the incident that the dream foretold the future, and then being immediatley confirmed in that regard. An atypical dream, a belief that it would soon manifest, and a confirmation of that, all in less than 8 hours, and you chalk it up to coincidence?

Could be coincidence. You haven't said anything that would compel me to believe one way or the other about coincidence.

Don't get me wrong, I've had this sort of dream before, where I knew it was prophetic and then it happened. I don't care to speculate whether such a thing is due to coincidence or a real sensitivity to the workings of the universe. However, I will say that there is a tendency for people to want to believe it was something mystical or something that gives them a connection to the greater universe or something like that. People like to believe that magic exists, and I can certainly sympathize. However, at times this means that they collect non-evidence in defense of such beliefs. I'm not saying that this is necessarily the case, just that this is a trend, so at the very least people have reason to be skeptical of what you say.

There is one dream which I believe to be prophetic, but it has not yet come true (nor can I expect it to for at least a few years) so time will tell on that. And, while I do believe it will come true, if it does so then it proves absolutely nothing. There is certainly nothing that would make me even consider staking my life on the outcome.


That said, I've seen some weeeeeird stuff in my lifetime. Stuff that I have no idea how to explain with current knowledge. I have a theory that says all that is explained by electromagnetism or such waves (don't our very thoughts give off such waves?) but we just lack the full explanation of it and anyways, since our very thoughts should affect these things, a controlled experiment that can replicate any of it is going to be practically impossible. I won't bother to prove or disprove my theory. It's just a theory I have come up with and I really can't prove it without expensive equipment that I don't own.

Okay, wait. Electromagnetism is something that's in vogue when it comes to explaining certain modern forms of magic, but it is almost certainly never a plausible explaination. In fact, the people claiming this have such a small understanding of EM forces that they might as well replace the words "Electromagnetism," with the word "Magic," and the meaning would be the same.

This comes from the confusion people have about the nature of what makes something "scientific." They think that just coming up with a plausible explaination for the mechanism of the thing makes it scientific, but in reality this is only part of it. The really important part is that it has to be testable and reproducible. Saying, "It's electromagnetism," doesn't make it any less magical, you're just using different words. You need to be able to reproduce it predictably.

[bluewind95]

Talking with someone with a better understanding of it, he says it's perfectly possible to get a static charge with the results I got. Magnetism apparently can, under the right circumstances, give a static charge to something (including hands).

At any rate, yeah, I'm not sure it IS electromagnetism, hence why I added the words "or such waves". I would think, though, that since an electric current runs through our body, we DO have electromagnetism around us. And who knows, maybe it can do weird things. Maybe my theory is completely wrong. Who knows?

As for making it scientific, I know that's not currently possible. After all, we don't understand it, so how do we know just what variables to test for? I just said why I think it's plausible. :smalltongue:

At any rate, consider this. In that post, I explained about that time I got magnetized (or statically-charged. Whatever. :smalltongue:) hands. Take a look at these statements:

"I was once able to move things without touching them!"

"I was once playing with magnets all day and I think my hands got magnetized or charged somehow and then tiny plastic things would repel from them within a few centimeters from them. My own hands would repel each other, too."

In the first, I give you absolutely no details beyond the result. It looks like "magic". It looks like I'm crazy. In the second, I give you more data. Then you can make the connection to the perfectly natural thing of getting a static charge (or magnetizing something). And it's not magical anymore. Just a natural phenomenon. I think the issue with all this "supernatural" thing is just that: we don't have enough data to make any real conclusion out of it. Maybe someday we will, maybe there will always be too many variables to ever make it very scientific (I mean, just like psychology. Scientific as it is, not all of it is 100% reproducible). Who knows? My belief really can be summarized in this: there is no physics-breaking going on. We just don't know exactly why these things can possibly happen. It's kind of like... consciousness, the mind. No one is 100% sure how it happens, really (if you do, please explain. I'd love to understand it). We know that there's a bunch of neurons interacting, but we don't quiiite know how. It still seems almost magical, but that's only because we don't quite understand it. There is no true magic going on there, it's perfectly natural. Again, we just don't know it 100%.

[Serpentine]

It could just be coincidence (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98OTsYfTt-c), and while it hasn't really come up yet, be careful if you tell people to be open-minded (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T69TOuqaqXI&feature=channel).

Re. OP: Well, for starters, the "element of earth" has no real link to reality. The "five elements" was utterly abandoned centuries ago, and there's nothing really special or defining about "earth".
As for magic, specifically... Well, as I've said before, it's generally just the misatribution of phenomena. What really bothers me is that alllll that sort of stuff (and I'm including most alternative medicines in that, too) is considered somehow exempt from scientific testing. I would be much more willing to try herbal remedies, for example, if they had to undergo the same rigorous testing and regulation as normal medicine. Same with reiki and all the more... uh... [self-edit] unrealistic additions to massage.
If it happens in the universe then it is covered by, and explainable through, science. Just because we don't understand it yet, doesn't mean we never will. Anyone who argues for magic with "science doesn't know everything!" hasn't actually talked to a scientist: All scientists know we don't know everything. If we did, we wouldn't need scientists anymore, just book-writers.

[averagejoe]

Talking with someone with a better understanding of it, he says it's perfectly possible to get a static charge with the results I got. Magnetism apparently can, under the right circumstances, give a static charge to something (including hands).

At any rate, yeah, I'm not sure it IS electromagnetism, hence why I added the words "or such waves". I would think, though, that since an electric current runs through our body, we DO have electromagnetism around us.

Ah, I was speaking in general, not to this specific example, where the connection seems at least somewhat logical, though I wouldn't care to speculate without knowing more about it. I was talking more about justifying things like astrology or other magics by saying, "Electromagnetism." It seems to be in vogue, and the explanations primarily seem to depend on profound ignorance. It's more that you reminded me of something annoying than any beef I had with the specifics of what you said.

[GoC]

At any rate, yeah, I'm not sure it IS electromagnetism, hence why I added the words "or such waves". I would think, though, that since an electric current runs through our body, we DO have electromagnetism around us. And who knows, maybe it can do weird things. Maybe my theory is completely wrong. Who knows?

Any person with Maxwell's equations and a description of the human body.

[averagejoe]

Talking with someone with a better understanding of it, he says it's perfectly possible to get a static charge with the results I got. Magnetism apparently can, under the right circumstances, give a static charge to something (including hands).

Okay, I tried to leave this alone, but it has been eating at my mind. I'm a little too obsessive about such matters, I'm afraid.

I, admittedly, know very little about biochemistry, but this seems like an incredibly unlikely scenario. Even ignoring the fact that something getting "magnetized" (as you originally described it) and "static charge" are two different things, and even ignoring the problem of how the charge would actually build up (though, maybe, this is more easy to imagine than your hand magnetizing, so I'll stick with this scenario) the amount of charge required to build up to produce forces like the ones you describe is relatively large. Further, when a static charge builds up, you need to gather a lot of like charge (that is, a lot of either positive or negative charge) so that there's much more of one relative to the other; otherwise the positive and negative charges cancel each other out. However, like charges repel, so it would take some other force, or lack of somewhere else to go, to keep such a buildup in your hands. Except under unusual circumstances, the charge should have dissipated into the ground, and even if it didn't it would have arranged itself evenly throughout your body instead of concentrating in one place.

And there are even greater difficulties in the idea that your hands were magnetized. Overall, these explanations produce more problems than they explain.

[Nameless]

Magic is just science we don't understand. :smallsmile:

[Quincunx]

golentan, that aikido exercise is fascinating. I think you'll find similarities to studies in autohypnosis itself, and with the people susceptible to that. However, this exercise with its attachment points for measuring force, would yield far more concrete data for the intensity of hypnotic effect than the reaction times the researchers usually use as a benchmark. Do advanced scanning to see which part of the mind or spinal cord is activating the muscles which would be used to correct balance in the water, actually dunk the participants beforehand to see what muscles they use (better waterproof those leads). . .

Magic itself comes down to people who would prefer to be certain (of knowing the cause, or having a correlation between cause-unknown and effect) at the risk of being incorrect. I'm one of those who prefer to be correct at the risk of being uncertain or unfinished. I recognize that there's a soothing effect from joining up the formerly disconnected universe incorrectly, with magic or karma or other such ideas, but I also recognize it's a soothing effect from a lie; the same ease comes from understanding how things truly work, so the benefit from the lie is negated, leaving only the handicap of trying to get good results from a bad process of thought.

[LurkerInPlayground]

As for magic, specifically... Well, as I've said before, it's generally just the misatribution of phenomena. What really bothers me is that alllll that sort of stuff (and I'm including most alternative medicines in that, too) is considered somehow exempt from scientific testing. I would be much more willing to try herbal remedies, for example, if they had to undergo the same rigorous testing and regulation as normal medicine.
Well, it's not even merely that herbals undergo less testing, they're not necessarily packaged or designed to be efficacious and, in practice, don't really have to follow good manufacturing procedure. Herbal manufacturers simply aren't allowed to make unsupported medical claims and have to demonstrate that their product won't harm anybody when used as intended (if that). Actual drugs are often just highly-refined or highly modified forms of herbals that have been well-packaged, detailed instructions for use and customer support.

[bluewind95]

Okay, I tried to leave this alone, but it has been eating at my mind. I'm a little too obsessive about such matters, I'm afraid.

I, admittedly, know very little about biochemistry, but this seems like an incredibly unlikely scenario. Even ignoring the fact that something getting "magnetized" (as you originally described it) and "static charge" are two different things, and even ignoring the problem of how the charge would actually build up (though, maybe, this is more easy to imagine than your hand magnetizing, so I'll stick with this scenario) the amount of charge required to build up to produce forces like the ones you describe is relatively large. Further, when a static charge builds up, you need to gather a lot of like charge (that is, a lot of either positive or negative charge) so that there's much more of one relative to the other; otherwise the positive and negative charges cancel each other out. However, like charges repel, so it would take some other force, or lack of somewhere else to go, to keep such a buildup in your hands. Except under unusual circumstances, the charge should have dissipated into the ground, and even if it didn't it would have arranged itself evenly throughout your body instead of concentrating in one place.

And there are even greater difficulties in the idea that your hands were magnetized. Overall, these explanations produce more problems than they explain.

Tell me about it. Yeah, I know that a static charge and magnetism are two different things. Like I said, I don't know exactly what happened and I decided it was probably magnetism while someone else said it was probably a static charge. Since I don't know which it was, I offered both explanations.

I also know that it was supposedly not something that could normally happen, which is why I don't know what it was and also why I shared that anecdote on this topic about magic. It's not something that can be explained away by saying I attributed it to the wrong causes. It can only be explained away by saying it was something quite natural that really there's not enough data to explain why it happened.

You're free to not believe me, of course. But that won't change the fact that it happened. Why? I don't know. Nor could I give you a fully correct and complete explanation, lacking the full knowledge of what happened. I was also 10 at the time, so I really didn't know what to test for. I just enjoyed the static-charge/magnetism/whatever-it-was while it lasted. :smalltongue:

[LurkerInPlayground]

Tell me about it. Yeah, I know that a static charge and magnetism are two different things. Like I said, I don't know exactly what happened and I decided it was probably magnetism while someone else said it was probably a static charge. Since I don't know which it was, I offered both explanations.
Meh. Not quite. A static charge
possesses a magnetic field.


I also know that it was supposedly not something that could normally happen, which is why I don't know what it was and also why I shared that anecdote on this topic about magic. It's not something that can be explained away by saying I attributed it to the wrong causes. It can only be explained away by saying it was something quite natural that really there's not enough data to explain why it happened.
Or somebody can explain what happened but the knowledge amounts to little more than trivia, hence its obscurity.

[Serpentine]

Stoopid forum lag. Not gonna repeat myself, except for this summary: Averagejoe and GoC (and now, apparently, Lurker), the point of that anecdote was that she experienced a mysterious phenomenon and attempted to explain it with non-supernatural causes - and she admitted herself that this theory was pretty shaky. She was, apparently, mistaken, but when someone gave her a more probable (though apparently still incorrect) explanation, she acknowledged it and incorporated it into her thinking. Stop having a go at her for examining the event in a critical manner with an open mind.
Also, Quin, that's a very elegant way of putting it.

[Elminster1]

I can give an idea of what magic is believed to be, my mother has been a practicing Pagan for over 30 years, and is part of a Coven. Now, me, personally, I am not, I love the Occult and ancient ideas and spiritual beliefs and practices, and philosophy.

Magic is about the manipulation of energy, as directed by the personal will. The idea of casting spells, is to prepare the mind, to sharpen and focus it, to get ready to direct the energy to a desired end. That's why Pagan's use Ritual, mantra's and chant's, symbolism through shape and color, specific motions, candles, etc, to help focus the attention of the will, and to direct the energy to your desired end. I have a book enetitled "The Magician's Companion". In it, it speaks about various occult practices, from ancient times, to modern day, archaic languages, symbols, etc. Learning and exploring the ideas ancient people and cultures had, through study of philosophy, religion, and mythology, as well as their cultural characteristics, will give you insight on the workings of the occult and mysticism in general.

Of course, I study philosophy and religion at college, plus my mother is Pagan, and I've read various books on these subjects. Very interesting to say the least. Hope this helped.

[LurkerInPlayground]

Stoopid forum lag. Not gonna repeat myself, except for this summary: Averagejoe and GoC (and now, apparently, Lurker), the point of that anecdote was that she experienced a mysterious phenomenon and attempted to explain it with non-supernatural causes - and she admitted herself that this theory was pretty shaky. She was, apparently, mistaken, but when someone gave her a more probable (though apparently still incorrect) explanation, she acknowledged it and incorporated it into her thinking. Stop having a go at her for examining the event in a critical manner with an open mind.
Also, Quin, that's a very elegant way of putting it.
To put it bluntly, I had thought that I deleted that post, being that it wasn't really worth the trouble. But that's the forum lag for you.

[bluewind95]

Stoopid forum lag. Not gonna repeat myself, except for this summary: Averagejoe and GoC (and now, apparently, Lurker), the point of that anecdote was that she experienced a mysterious phenomenon and attempted to explain it with non-supernatural causes - and she admitted herself that this theory was pretty shaky. She was, apparently, mistaken, but when someone gave her a more probable (though apparently still incorrect) explanation, she acknowledged it and incorporated it into her thinking. Stop having a go at her for examining the event in a critical manner with an open mind.

Indeed! Thanks, Serpentine. Yes, that's pretty much it.

If it ever happens again, I'll be sure to document it all more carefully. :smalltongue:

[GoC]

Indeed! Thanks, Serpentine. Yes, that's pretty much it.

If it ever happens again, I'll be sure to document it all more carefully. :smalltongue:

Please do! I look forward to your results.:smallcool:

[Collin152]

The fact they both happened together does not mean that there was a casual relationship other than the fact that you're a person who doesn't mind receiving kisses or dreaming about kisses.

Again: These are two singular events.
I don't dream romance. When I get a dream about someone due to obsessive thoughts, they're invariably silently walking beside me somewhere. Usually with a patronizing look on their face.
This guy is the only person who has ever kissed me, ever. And I have a dream of it the night before, despite a total lack of reason to expect it. He barely even likes guys!

I can understand you not accepting my belief in the psychic nature of the dream, but don't insult me with half-assed things to take issue with.

[Lerky]

actually I've been quite interested in what I call "Magik" (with Magic being the traditional bunny in a top hat stuff:smalltongue:). Mostly I've wanted to delve into what D&D calls "Enchantments" so kind of like charms and subtle mind control and stuff. I don't expect someone to dance whenever I want to, just some form of being able to affect someone's thoughts other the psychology:smallwink:

[averagejoe]

You're free to not believe me, of course. But that won't change the fact that it happened. Why? I don't know. Nor could I give you a fully correct and complete explanation, lacking the full knowledge of what happened. I was also 10 at the time, so I really didn't know what to test for. I just enjoyed the static-charge/magnetism/whatever-it-was while it lasted. :smalltongue:

I'm not doubting you, I just wanted to get the actual science right. :smalltongue: Call it intellectual vanity.


Stoopid forum lag. Not gonna repeat myself, except for this summary: Averagejoe and GoC (and now, apparently, Lurker), the point of that anecdote was that she experienced a mysterious phenomenon and attempted to explain it with non-supernatural causes - and she admitted herself that this theory was pretty shaky. She was, apparently, mistaken, but when someone gave her a more probable (though apparently still incorrect) explanation, she acknowledged it and incorporated it into her thinking. Stop having a go at her for examining the event in a critical manner with an open mind.

I'm not trying to have a go at anyone, and I'm not sure where you're getting that. :smallconfused:

[GoC]

Again: These are two singular events.
I don't dream romance. When I get a dream about someone due to obsessive thoughts, they're invariably silently walking beside me somewhere. Usually with a patronizing look on their face.
This guy is the only person who has ever kissed me, ever. And I have a dream of it the night before, despite a total lack of reason to expect it. He barely even likes guys!

I can understand you not accepting my belief in the psychic nature of the dream, but don't insult me with half-assed things to take issue with.

Truly a singular event! Pick one person at random and it's unlikely that they'll have a story such as this involving dreams!
However, there are many many many possible singular events not involving dreams.
And given the huge number of people in society the chances of a large number of these unusual events becomes rather high.

For you specifically it might be rather improbable (kindof like you winning a lottery). But when taking the population of this playground it becomes probable.

[Graymayre]

I have never encountered anything that could not be explained under the strangely magical eye of science.

However, I will give a shot through the looking glass at how the arcane exists.

Let's look at the idea of the multiverse. It has been purported that we live in one universe out of an infinite array. Each of these universes has an infinite amount of variations. they also have an infinite difference in physical laws.

If we hold to these ideas of a multiverse. Then that makes the idea of magic, not only possible, but undeniably true on other worlds.

Then again, one could argue that magic is the science of those universes. If that is true, then is science not the magic of this one? [/philosophy]

Day-yum! I feel like a literary badass after that prose!

[Gorgondantess]

Just throwing my hat in:
1st off, I don't really believe in magic. I wish there was magic. Oh, how I wish there was magic. I'd do... just about anything for magic. But, I'm a logical fellow, and for every proof of magic I've found I've also found enough evidence to thoroughly debunk it.
I do, however, believe in mysterious, incredible things bordering on magic. No, I'm not talking about prophetic dreams, or poltergeists, or even religion (I'm firmly an agnostic). However, I believe in things like the intricacy of the human mind, the incredible power of the subconscious, and wonder at things like the infinity of the universe, the creation of time and space, life itself... these are my magic. It seems rather mundane, but when you think about it, these things are much more incredible than prophetic dreams, or ghosts, or shooting fireballs and lightning bolts.
The human mind, as I've said, is incredibly intricate. With all the knowledge we have of it combined, we've barely scratched the surface of understanding it. The only thing we really know for sure about it is that it's completely unpredictable, unknowable and very, very tricky.
Your mind will play tricks on you. It does it every day. Memories are exaggerated, some even entirely fabricated. I believe that people will believe what they want to believe. I also believe that I believe this because I want to believe it.
Collin- I find this dream you speak of fascinating. I can't explain it at all. Maybe it's just chance, as some would have it. Maybe you're truly prophetic. Maybe you just want to believe you're prophetic, that you're special, that there is magic and mind powers. Maybe the human mind is mindbogglingly intricate and powerful, capable of amazing, undescribable things, far beyond our own consciousness, but not really magic- just tuning into incredibly subtle networks of... stuff. I, personally, want to belive the latter. But that's just because I want to believe that, and I want to beilieve that people believe what they want to believe.
In the end, your mind will play tricks on you. But, you are also more powerful than you know. Every mind is so incredibly powerful, all we can do is call it magic. Of course, I just want to believe that.:smalltongue:

[Moff Chumley]

Silence, here's my take on what magic is. Energy exchange. This probably isn't what you're after, but as a musician, there's something ridiculously transcendent/otherworldly about putting out energy to an audience, and felling it come back to you. It sounds mundane, I know, but I refuse to acknowledge that only one thing on earth can get a person so high on life, and nothing else. It has to be something supernatural.

Just my two cp.

[LurkerInPlayground]

Again: These are two singular events.
I don't dream romance. When I get a dream about someone due to obsessive thoughts, they're invariably silently walking beside me somewhere. Usually with a patronizing look on their face.
This guy is the only person who has ever kissed me, ever. And I have a dream of it the night before, despite a total lack of reason to expect it. He barely even likes guys!

I can understand you not accepting my belief in the psychic nature of the dream, but don't insult me with half-assed things to take issue with.
Yes, yes. And you constantly omit details. Was this supposed to be a serious kiss? If so, then what makes you think he only just "barely even likes guys"? I hope you didn't put out signals you didn't want give.

[Serpentine]

Again: These are two singular events.
I don't dream romance. When I get a dream about someone due to obsessive thoughts, they're invariably silently walking beside me somewhere. Usually with a patronizing look on their face.
This guy is the only person who has ever kissed me, ever. And I have a dream of it the night before, despite a total lack of reason to expect it. He barely even likes guys!

I can understand you not accepting my belief in the psychic nature of the dream, but don't insult me with half-assed things to take issue with.Maybe you're right, and you did somehow have forewarning of a future event. Maybe your brain even somehow picked up some of those particles that travel backwards through time (now that's magic) that had picked up a bit of memory along its way. Or, maybe, it went something a bit more like this: You met this person. They made an impression on you, and you on them. You, conciously or otherwise, developed an interest in this person. Your subconcious, in turn, picked up some hint that that person was also interested in you. You thought about the person sometime before you fell asleep - at least, there's a good chance that they were near the surface of your thoughts. Your subconcious played with the "I'm interested in him, he might be interested in me" theme, took a desired line of thought with it that may or may not occur - one of many possible consequences - that happened to be the correct option, and turned it into a dream. To put it another way, your subconcious took some data, interpreted it in dream form, and just happened to be right.
Or maybe it's any number of possibilities. Not all of them are equally plausible, but there are many, not just one.

[Decoy Lockbox]

actually I've been quite interested in what I call "Magik" (with Magic being the traditional bunny in a top hat stuff:smalltongue:). Mostly I've wanted to delve into what D&D calls "Enchantments" so kind of like charms and subtle mind control and stuff. I don't expect someone to dance whenever I want to, just some form of being able to affect someone's thoughts other the psychology:smallwink:


Good luck. I think everyone wants the power to do that :smallbiggrin: