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View Full Version : 10' steps and Retraining PrCs (3.5).



Tempest Fennac
2009-05-08, 04:28 AM
Is there a way to make 10' steps in place of 5' steps as a free action once/round? I'm thinking about a Crossbow Sniper-based Scout build which would benefit from that ability.

Also, do the Retraining rules in the Player's Handbook 2 work for PrCs as well? I know the idea is that you complete a quest before being allowed to retrain 1/4th of your levels as a different class at the rate of 1 level/week but I don't have the book (I only heard about those rules), so I'm not sure if they work for PrCs. (I was thinking about how to make a fun Fighter/Wizard cross and I was thinking of trying Fighter 2/Wizard 4 to qualify for Abjurant Champion, then take 1 Phantom Knight level,
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050706a&page=4 , then retrain 1 Fighter level as another Abjurant Champion level before taking the rest of the AC levels before continuing as a Knight Phantom.)

Eldariel
2009-05-08, 04:41 AM
Is there a way to make 10' steps in place of 5' steps as a free action once/round? I'm thinking about a Crossbow Sniper-based Scout build which would benefit from that ability.

Sparring Dummy of the Master in Arms & Equipment-guide (if you have Monk-levels) or DC 40 Tumble-check (by Oriental Adventures)

Tempest Fennac
2009-05-08, 04:44 AM
Thanks. I take it Sparring Dummy is a feat, right? Also, what are the exact prequisites?

Eldariel
2009-05-08, 04:49 AM
Thanks. I take it Sparring Dummy is a feat, right? Also, what are the exact prequisites?

It's an item.

Tempest Fennac
2009-05-08, 04:53 AM
Thanks for clarifying. Does it say that it's a Monk specific item, and if it is what level do you need to be to use it? (I just want to clarify due to wondering why only Monks can use it.)

Eldariel
2009-05-08, 04:55 AM
Thanks for clarifying. Does it say that it's a Monk specific item, and if it is what level do you need to be to use it? (I just want to clarify due to wondering why only Monks can use it.)

You can use it if you have 1 level of Monk. It costs 30000gp. Those are the only limitations. Requires 4 weeks of training after which the benefit (10' steps) persists IIRC.

Tempest Fennac
2009-05-08, 05:29 AM
Thanks for explaining. That doesn't sound very useful for my concept until much later one, and then iI'd need to retrain the Monk level.:smallfrown:

Darrin
2009-05-08, 06:46 AM
Thanks for explaining. That doesn't sound very useful for my concept until much later one, and then iI'd need to retrain the Monk level.:smallfrown:

Awww... no mention of the magic roller skates?

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cw/20061120a

Person_Man has compiled a list of all the possible ways you can combine movement with a full attack:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5884385

My recommendation would be the Travel Devotion feat, although that only works for 10 rounds once per day unless you can burn Turn Undead uses.

Dipping one level of Swordsage or Warblade to pick up Sudden Leap would also be good.

Tempest Fennac
2009-05-08, 07:02 AM
Thanks for the links, Darrin (the skates are perfect; admittedly, the Scout in question is going to be a Gnoll, so they would look amusing if he used them). The anklets which grant 10' teleportation sound interresting as well.

Jack_Simth
2009-05-08, 07:19 AM
Thanks for clarifying. Does it say that it's a Monk specific item, and if it is what level do you need to be to use it? (I just want to clarify due to wondering why only Monks can use it.)
Do note that you can also use it by way of Use Magic Device, even without Monk levels.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-05-08, 07:46 AM
In Complete Champion is the feat Travel Devotion, which allows you to do a move action's worth of movement as a swift action. It has a very low daily limit, but expending uses of turn undead (gained via Night Sticks) allows it to be used more often. This is what most Skirmish-based characters use from what I've heard.

In the Tome of Battle there's a stance called Press the Advantage, which allows you to move 10 ft. with every 5 ft. step. You can gain it by taking the feat Martial Stance, which requires that you take the feat Martial Study twice. It requires an initiator level of 9 to take this stance, so if you're not a martial adept you can't get it until level 18.

Most scout builds are best off going Scout 4/ Ranger 16, with the feat Swift Hunter from Complete Scoundrel.

Faleldir
2009-05-08, 08:28 AM
As long as we're mentioning Tome Of Battle, another easy way to take a 10-foot step would be Sudden Leap. It has prerequisites though, so you might want to multiclass to get it ASAP.

By RAW, it gets even better: it doesn't differentiate between horizontal and vertical movement like a normal Jump check; and since it's not a Stone Dragon maneuver, you can initiate it in midair.

Tempest Fennac
2009-05-08, 08:53 AM
Thanks for the advice. I'll probably just stick to the skates, though. Does anyone know if the PHB 2 retraining rules can substitute base class levels for PrC levels if you still qualify for the PrC you're taking levels in?

Darrin
2009-05-08, 09:11 AM
As long as we're mentioning Tome Of Battle, another easy way to take a 10-foot step would be Sudden Leap. It has prerequisites though, so you might want to multiclass to get it ASAP.


There's a way around that if you only want to spend one Martial Study feat.

Pick up some lesser Tiger Claw Bracers (3000 GP). This grants you one Tiger Claw maneuver. You can now pick up Sudden Leap with one Martial Study feat. One of the little quirks with maneuvers is you do not lose them even if you no longer have the prereqs, so you can lose the bracers, give them away, or sell them, and still keep Sudden Leap.

This trick also works with Iron Heart Vest + Iron Heart Surge or Crown of the White Raven + White Raven Tactics.

Keld Denar
2009-05-08, 11:44 AM
I'm suprised nobody has actually mentioned it. You can't retrain CLASSES. According to the PHBII, where the rules for retraining are, you can only retrain SKILLS, FEATS, and CLASS FEATURES. So...if you origionally specialized your wizard in Enchantment, but later wanted to specialize in Conjouration, you'd pay your gold and time when you level up, and you'd be a Conjourer, or maybe even a Focused Specialist Conjourer. But you couldn't become a Cleric. Thats called rebuilding, and is basically stated as DM fiat, where the player and the DM basically sit down and build a new character. Different rules.

Tempest Fennac
2009-05-08, 01:16 PM
Thanks for explaining that, Keld. It's odd because I distinclty remember someone mentioning retraining classes in the fashion I mentioned. I think it was in the OotS forum.

Curmudgeon
2009-05-08, 01:59 PM
Do note that you can also use it by way of Use Magic Device, even without Monk levels. ... but only at fairly high levels, because you'll need to make 224 consecutive DC 21 Use Magic Device checks without failure. And since very few classes are allowed to "take 10" on UMD, that basically means having a +20 skill modifier.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-05-08, 04:22 PM
... but only at fairly high levels, because you'll need to make 224 consecutive DC 21 Use Magic Device checks without failure. And since very few classes are allowed to "take 10" on UMD, that basically means having a +20 skill modifier.Exemplar level 1, Warlock level 4, Artificer level 12. Or just get a custom Wondrous item. +10 is reasonable for WBL of an 9th level char, especially since you'll probably sell it(and the Dummy) as soon as you finish.

Eldariel
2009-05-08, 04:27 PM
Exemplar level 1, Warlock level 4, Artificer level 12.

Exemplar shouldn't work (standard Skill Mastery doesn't grant you the ability to take 10, only removes the restriction of not being able to take 10 when distracted or threatened; you can't take 10 on UMD normally so this ability is of no use to you), and the other two are quite the level investments.

As for custom items...well, custom items.

Harperfan7
2009-05-08, 06:15 PM
You'd think that there would be a feat or ability made pretty much for scouts that would allow it.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-05-08, 07:40 PM
Exemplar shouldn't work (standard Skill Mastery doesn't grant you the ability to take 10, only removes the restriction of not being able to take 10 when distracted or threatened; you can't take 10 on UMD normally so this ability is of no use to you), and the other two are quite the level investments.

As for custom items...well, custom items.4 ways of doing it, 1 without any real preparation. By level 10, you could also have 13 ranks, +2 Cha, Skill Focus(retrainable afterwards:smallwink:), and a friendly caster tossing Eagle's Splendor. Or take the feat for +2 and retrain that. Or spend 16K on the Cloak of Cha and sell it afterwards. Especially with retraining, anything's possible.

Eldariel
2009-05-08, 08:09 PM
4 ways of doing it, 1 without any real preparation. By level 10, you could also have 13 ranks, +2 Cha, Skill Focus(retrainable afterwards:smallwink:), and a friendly caster tossing Eagle's Splendor. Or take the feat for +2 and retrain that. Or spend 16K on the Cloak of Cha and sell it afterwards. Especially with retraining, anything's possible.

Oh, definitely, not denying that - just pointing out the problems in the solutions you listed. It takes a bit of effort. You left Circlet of Persuasion out of the calculations - as it applies to Charisma-based checks, it should work fine for UMD too and costs mere 4.5k. Makes life a bit easier; you don't need Skill Focus. If it's a cross-class skill (such as with Scout) though, things get a tad harder.

Curmudgeon
2009-05-08, 09:37 PM
I'm thinking about a Crossbow Sniper-based Scout build which would benefit from that ability.
Warlock level 4, Artificer level 12. Seems a bit off track for the OP's requirements, don't you think? A plain Scout doesn't even get Use Magic Device as a class skill. A multiclass Rogue/Scout with Swift Ambusher is a reasonable option, though.

Or just get a custom Wondrous item. Availability of such an item is entirely dependent on the DM, unless you're going to go way off track to become a 3rd-level spellcaster and take Craft Wondrous Item. And still the crafting requirements for any custom item would also be entirely up to your DM.

Chronos
2009-05-09, 12:09 AM
And still the crafting requirements for any custom item would also be entirely up to your DM. And while there isn't a hard rule saying so, it'd be quite reasonable for the DM to set X ranks in the skill as a prereq for an item of +X (all of the standard skill-boosting items have such a requirement).

Draken
2009-05-09, 12:13 AM
The real question.

How is taking 1 level of Exemplar, 4 levels of Warlock or 12 levels of Artificer better than taking 1 level of monk, in order to use the monk item?

It's something to consider for a few moments.

Jothki
2009-05-09, 02:58 AM
... but only at fairly high levels, because you'll need to make 224 consecutive DC 21 Use Magic Device checks without failure. And since very few classes are allowed to "take 10" on UMD, that basically means having a +20 skill modifier.

What about taking 20? If you're just training with it during downtime, that seems reasonable.


The real question.

How is taking 1 level of Exemplar, 4 levels of Warlock or 12 levels of Artificer better than taking 1 level of monk, in order to use the monk item?

It's something to consider for a few moments.

Heh, that's the first time I've heard of taking a level of monk as a viable alternative to any other option. Then again, I have no idea what the Exemplar is.

Tempest Fennac
2009-05-09, 03:10 AM
If you can't take 10 on UMD checks without being a Warlock, I doubt that trying to take 20 would work, especially since the idea is that you'd be failing repeatedly while taking 20. I think I'd sooner stick with just using the skates to be honest; they sound more plausible for what I want.

Goatman_Ted
2009-05-09, 03:16 AM
Heh, that's the first time I've heard of taking a level of monk as a viable alternative to any other option. Then again, I have no idea what the Exemplar is.

Monk gets a bum rap. It's a perfectly viable 2-level class.

Curmudgeon
2009-05-09, 04:15 AM
And while there isn't a hard rule saying so, it'd be quite reasonable for the DM to set X ranks in the skill as a prereq for an item of +X (all of the standard skill-boosting items have such a requirement). This is incorrect. In fact, the specific exemplar item for skill bonus (Cloak of Elvenkind (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#cloakofElvenkind)) in the "Creating Magic Items" rules has no skill rank requirement:
Cloak of Elvenkind

This cloak of neutral gray cloth is indistinguishable from an ordinary cloak of the same color. However, when worn with the hood drawn up around the head, it gives the wearer a +5 competence bonus on Hide checks.

Faint illusion; CL 3rd; Craft Wondrous Item, invisibility, creator must be an elf; Price 2,500 gp; Weight 1 lb.

Chronos
2009-05-09, 12:47 PM
I stand corrected. Still, it's the case for enough of them, such as the Ring of Jumping (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rings.htm#jumping), Ring of Swimming (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rings.htm#swimming), and Third Eye: Concentrate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/universalItems.htm#concentrate), that I think it's safe to say that it would be reasonable for the DM to require it.