Save AND Suck Spells?

[Brock Samson]

I've played with one DM in the past who REALLY didn't like letting any enemies actually FAIL their saves, I think she felt I was overpowered because I was playing a SORCERER! So, I had to focus on scorching rays and whatnot. I've heard that there are spells that still inhibit an enemy in some way even if they make their save. What are these spells? Starting with the lowest-level ones as I think most gamers spend 85% of their time below level 9.

[arkol]

Look for spells that change how creatures move in a certain area. Web, grease and solid fog come to mind....
You should also look into rays, as those don't ussualy have saves (but you need to hit first...)

However if you DM is so anal about his monsters saves you might as well be buffing your allies instead of debuffing your enemys. Stuff like haste, invisibility, bull strenght, enlarge person to name just a few low-level ones...

[Talic]

Let's start.

Magic Missile. No save, No attack roll. Good Base.

Add in Fell Drain (Libris Mortis).
Add in Metamagic School Focus (evocation).

Now Cast magic missile as a level 2 spell. Any enemy that takes damage from it, gains a negative level. No save.

Web. Even saving means half movement.

Grease. Even if you save, without balance? You're flat footed. Remind the rogue to thank you.

There are others. Evervate is level 4.

[Tempest Fennac]

Talic, would that bestow 1 negative level per missile or would it only drain 1 level altogether? Also, would hitting multiple enemies give them 1 negative level for each MM which hits?

[Dhavaer]

One negative level per damaged enemy. Multiple missiles hitting one enemy won't inflict more negative levels.

[Douglas]

Hitting a single opponent multiple times with a single Fell Drain spell does not give it multiple negative levels. If you hit multiple creatures at once, though, each of them gains a negative level.

If you cast the spell again, the negative levels stack, but the negative level from a single casting is contingent on "does it do damage", not "how many times does it hit".

[Elminster1]

I think alternate strategie ould help, like aforementioned, buffing. Summoning also helps, requires no save obviously. Most, not all Rays have no save. But, you need a good Dex to score a hit. I would mostly use spells that just don't target the enemy. If you have to target the enemy, use Ray spells.

Years ago, I played with a DM just like yours. And, I did the same thing, used methods and spells that just circumvent the whole scenario.

Check out Spell Compendium, too.

[Ashtar]

Against any kind of caster monster, I use Touch of Idiocy. No save and 1d6 penalty to Int, Wis and Cha. This can strip them of the possibility of casting their higher level spells.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/touchofIdiocy.htm

You can cast it long in advance and hold the charge. I did that once, I cast out of sight and then walked up to the big bad boss and shook his hand.

[JeminiZero]

Don't forget spells that buff your friends: Enlarge Person, Animal Buffs, Sonic Weapon, Haste and the like. Although for a Sorc, you'll likely not want to take the spells that don't scale well with magic gear.

Fun thing to try: Add Fell Drain to Sonic Weapon, and see if it drains 1 level each time it does damage.

And the classic: Shadow Conjuration. Use it to fake Stone Wall to build a bridge (or something similiar). When using the bridge, you must make a Will save to realize its an illusion... at which point you fall through it. Your party can use the bridge safely by intentionally failing their will save.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

The other option is to boost your save DCs to the point where the DM can't justify the monster making them. Beguiler is good for this, especially in Faerun and at low levels(before Mindblank). SF+GSF+Veil of Allure+Cloaked Casting+Shadow Weave Magic=+6 to save DCs. That means at 10th level you're tossing out DC 28 spells. Not many opponents can make that, and no meatshields.

[Riffington]

In many campaigns, sorcerers are overpowered. If that's the case, finding ways to make them more powerful is a bit counterproductive. You may be better off talking to the DM, and figuring out what she does like, and then playing within those bounds. (Maybe that's blasting and you're best off as a warmage. Maybe that's buffing. Maybe that isn't a full caster). A Save-DC arms race doesn't usually work out well for the player or the game.

Now, if you are done playing that particular game, and it just made you curious about what spells could theoretically have been good, then cool. But if your goal is to make your DM cry, just cut some onions.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Spell Compendium has Ray of Dizziness and Ray of Light, neither of which there's a saving throw for. Using Split Ray to hit two opponents at once with them is also quite useful. Other good ray spells would include Enervation (no save), Ray of Enfeeblement (no save), and Ray of Exhaustion which if you split it and hit one target twice it doesn't matter if they make both saves. Freezing Fog is an amazing no-save upgrade from Solid Fog.

[VirOath]

Riffington, you need to remember that some DMs have seemingly little understanding of balance.

Yes, a Sorc can be overpowered, but so can ANY caster. But most of this overpoweredness comes from abuse of spells rather than just playing the class. Playing any class smart is often what is required to be effective, if DMs have a problem with smart players then they should be upping the difficultly curve a touch.

But then there are some that will flat out believe something is completely overpowered and won't see it otherwise. I have one that believes that Rogue Sneak Attack damage is completely overpowered and will never allow it to apply, yet there are 3 or more Full Casters in the party, and it's a heavy NPC campaign with 4-6 players. A DM that won't let any monster fail any save falls into this boat.

[Elminster1]

I tend to agree with the notion, you can't beat the DM if they just don't want you to be able to do something. In that vein, it's just useless.

Playing in games where DM's have stagnant mindsets or just hate magic in general (I briefly played with those types....reinforce BRIEF), I just realize, you can't beat a stubborn, stinky DM.

Magic is part of the game, and so are saves. I always despised the whole "Magic is uber, blah blah blah". I always wonder, then why are we playing D&D? To just play a bunch of melee dorks to satiate your lameness? Lol, pointless.

However, if your trying to showup the DM, kudos. Thats fun too, refuse to give up! I understand the game is about everyone having fun. But, whats the fun in just breaking all the rules, being a cheeseball DM and ruining a player's fun, just because they like Magic? I'd understand if you were trying to pull some over the top Magic cheeseballness, or some busted Prestige class, or whatever, fine....but to a point. Just making all monsters/adversaries just make their saves because they think Magic is overpowered? That is beyond retarded and atrocious gaming, even for a dork.

[Hadrian_Emrys]

First of all, I approve of the spirit of the thread whole-heartedly. I've always been of the mindset that the point of a GM was to set up a story so that the players FEEL like protagonists. If they smear your mobs, up the ante so they have to work harder next time. Don't cheat them so that your plot train doesn't get derailed. Doing so is the mark of a worthless story teller.

[Riffington]

Yes, a Sorc can be overpowered, but so can ANY caster.

That's what I meant. In certain campaigns, the ability to cast 3rd level spells may be overpowered. That doesn't mean the DM has no understanding of balance. It just means balance exists in a different location than it does in your campaign.


But most of this overpoweredness comes from abuse of spells
Again, the definition of abuse is different in different campaigns. In some, "abuse" is when you get infinite wishes without XP cost. In others, it's when you cast glitterdust.

If glitterdust will ruin your campaign, either change the campaign or don't allow glitterdust. I don't like the "just make the monsters always save" option, but the response to that is to talk to the DM, not a way to beat the DM.

[AslanCross]

I tend to agree with the notion, you can't beat the DM if they just don't want you to be able to do something. In that vein, it's just useless.

Playing in games where DM's have stagnant mindsets or just hate magic in general (I briefly played with those types....reinforce BRIEF), I just realize, you can't beat a stubborn, stinky DM.

As such, I think this is best resolved by talking to the DM instead of starting an arms race.



Magic is part of the game, and so are saves. I always despised the whole "Magic is uber, blah blah blah". I always wonder, then why are we playing D&D? To just play a bunch of melee dorks to satiate your lameness? Lol, pointless.

Frankly, magic in 3.5 can be overpowered, and incredibly so. Not to say that it shouldn't be played---just like how I don't think Tome of Battle should be banned because it's sometimes believed to be overpowered.



However, if your trying to showup the DM, kudos. Thats fun too, refuse to give up! I understand the game is about everyone having fun. But, whats the fun in just breaking all the rules, being a cheeseball DM and ruining a player's fun, just because they like Magic? I'd understand if you were trying to pull some over the top Magic cheeseballness, or some busted Prestige class, or whatever, fine....but to a point. Just making all monsters/adversaries just make their saves because they think Magic is overpowered? That is beyond retarded and atrocious gaming, even for a dork.

The DM shouldn't ruin a player's fun, true. Autosaving the monsters is a very nasty way of "challenging" the players.

The DM has to enjoy the game too. As such, I think the best solution is indeed to talk to the DM instead of starting an arms race. I've been in such an adventure, where the DM (a beginner) optimized every single mook in the module just because he knew we had a powergamer.

The powergamer still splattered the mooks all over the floor (literally), and he insists to this day that he didn't even try optimizing. Everyone else had a hard time---even my 18th level Wizard. :P

[Brock Samson]

This was a few years ago, and I'm guessing it was to make sure I didn't out-damage the rogue (the other PC); however, that basically gimps my combat effectiveness while the rogue still enjoys MaD SkiLLz, and I was left with 3/level. So I stuck to a lot of scorching rays (Hey, I was a halfling sorcerer with a 20 dex, ranged touch I could hit) and it was still fun.

But yes, I am looking more here for those spells which still inhibit you when you make your save. For whatever reasons, for whatever balance, what other spells have you guys got?

[Talic]

Just bear in mind. Any door that you open, your DM can walk through too. You need defenses for the save and suck.

[darkblust]

Spells are an important part of the game.If your dm wants to auto save his monsters,then let him.There is nothing you can do,but don't use too much cheese,that will just anger him.I agree,just use ur rays and be happy with it.

[raptor1056]

I say, if the DM won't let you play reasonably, then don'tplay reasonably. Use gate cheese! Get tons of wishes! Abuse polymorph! Cast Chilling touch! (Necromancy, touch attack, 3d6 Dex on hit, 3rd level.) Show the DM that you, as a player, are just as caable of ruining his world as he is of ruining your character. Of course, this is to be used if negotiation is attempted and fails. I would try talking to the DM first. Suggest that, rather than autosave his dudes, the DM have you fight clusters of lower CR guys. Ask him to introduce enemy casters in order to up the ante on you guys. Just ask him to stop fudgibg the rules against you. You want to have fun, roo. (Or so I assume.)

[woodenbandman]

^EDIT: Yes, do that. If the DM can't be reasoned with, he'll never be a good DM. Monsters fail too.

Anyway, the only Save And Suck spell I can remember right now is Red Tide. 8th level druid spell, 30 foot burst. Any enemy inside is sickened for some rounds on a successful save. A failed save gives nausea(I think it's worse than sickened?), as well as 2d6 strength damage. It works like a poison, though, so poison immunity castrates you.

[Yora]

Don't forget spells that buff your friends: Enlarge Person, Animal Buffs, Sonic Weapon, Haste and the like. Although for a Sorc, you'll likely not want to take the spells that don't scale well with magic gear.

Fun thing to try: Add Fell Drain to Sonic Weapon, and see if it drains 1 level each time it does damage.

And the classic: Shadow Conjuration. Use it to fake Stone Wall to build a bridge (or something similiar). When using the bridge, you must make a Will save to realize its an illusion... at which point you fall through it. Your party can use the bridge safely by intentionally failing their will save.
I wouldn't allow that. :smallamused:

[derfenrirwolv]

Ray of enfeeblement

Ray/wave of exhaustion

[woodenbandman]

The powergamer still splattered the mooks all over the floor (literally), and he insists to this day that he didn't even try optimizing. Everyone else had a hard time---even my 18th level Wizard. :P

I promise you, this can happen. I can only assume that the powergamer was a Druid.

I had a druid. He used, like, a Wild Fullplate, a Monk's Belt + Wilding Clasp, and the spell Bite of the Weretiger, and he steamrolled everything. I didn't even make use of my feats, or my animal companion, or my other spells. It was just Wildshape -> Pwn.

[mostlyharmful]

Ray of enfeeblement

Ray/wave of exhaustion

Just what I was going to say but do it the other way round, a ray of Exhaustion will always leave them at least fatiged (-2 Str), two will always leave them Exhausted (-6 Str + Dex, no charging) and follow that up with a Str penalty (note, penalty not damage or drain, works on EVERYTHING) and you can get around that can't go below 0 Str thing in Exhaustion. Most everything but huge beatstick monsters will go down on -8 to -13 Str and even they'll be utterly crippled.

[Keld Denar]

Fear (Wiz4/Brd3) is a save AND suck, especially if you can stack it with other party member's fear effects. The shaken effect on a successful save only lasts for 1 round, but stacking fear ALWAYS lasts the duration of the longest effect. So, if you have an Intimidating Rage Barb, or a Dreadful Wrath Hexblade, or a Zentarim Solider Fighter, or something like that, you only need to CAST the Fear spell, and your allies can bump them the rest of the way. No save, just wet yourself + run away screaming.


Just what I was going to say but do it the other way round, a ray of Exhaustion will always leave them at least fatiged (-2 Str), two will always leave them Exhausted (-6 Str + Dex, no charging) and follow that up with a Str penalty (note, penalty not damage or drain, works on EVERYTHING) and you can get around that can't go below 0 Str thing in Exhaustion. Most everything but huge beatstick monsters will go down on -8 to -13 Str and even they'll be utterly crippled.

If you like stacking those 2, check out Escalating Enfeeblement in Complete Mage. Its exactly like RoEnfeeblement, except if the target is already Enfeebled or Fatigued, you roll 1d10+ CL/2 instead of 1d6. If you roll well, you can dish out like, -26 str penalty if you empower EE.

[Moriato]

He used, like, a Wild Fullplate, a Monk's Belt + Wilding Clasp,

Shouldn't be able to use a monk's belt and full plate at the same time.

[Talyn]

I say, if the DM won't let you play reasonably, then don'tplay reasonably. Use gate cheese! Get tons of wishes! Abuse polymorph! Cast Chilling touch! (Necromancy, touch attack, 3d6 Dex on hit, 3rd level.) Show the DM that you, as a player, are just as caable of ruining his world as he is of ruining your character. Of course, this is to be used if negotiation is attempted and fails. I would try talking to the DM first. Suggest that, rather than autosave his dudes, the DM have you fight clusters of lower CR guys. Ask him to introduce enemy casters in order to up the ante on you guys. Just ask him to stop fudgibg the rules against you. You want to have fun, roo. (Or so I assume.)

Absolutely not. Do NOT follow this advice. Dear gods, the game is not a competition between the players and the GM.

Going down this route leads to one of two potential options:
1) if the GM is strong-willed, you CANNOT ruin his or her world. He simply won't put up with your crap, and your character will be destroyed faster than you can say "rocks fall, only one person dies." Remember, the rules only apply the way he/she says they do. "It doesn't work" is a perfectly valid DM response to ANY PLAYER ACTION, even ones that are perfectly allowed by the rules.

Furthermore, you probably won't be invited back. I know I would rather run a game with one fewer player than one with someone actively trying to be disruptive.

2) if the GM is weak-willed, he/she will let you ruin his/her game. Congratulations. You just abused the mechanics of a system to "win" - except now nobody around the table (except, possibly, you, if you are into that thing) is having fun.

Gaming groups have fallen apart after power struggles like this. Friendships have been ruined, or budding friendships died stillborn, over what is, in effect, just a game of make-believe.

Please, OP, don't follow this advice. Work WITH the GM and your fellow players, not against them.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

I say, if the DM won't let you play reasonably, then don'tplay reasonably. Use gate cheese! Get tons of wishes! Abuse polymorph! Cast Chilling touch! (Necromancy, touch attack, 3d6 Dex on hit, 3rd level.) Show the DM that you, as a player, are just as caable of ruining his world as he is of ruining your character. Of course, this is to be used if negotiation is attempted and fails. I would try talking to the DM first. Suggest that, rather than autosave his dudes, the DM have you fight clusters of lower CR guys. Ask him to introduce enemy casters in order to up the ante on you guys. Just ask him to stop fudgibg the rules against you. You want to have fun, roo. (Or so I assume.)

Because if talking reasonably won't work, playing unreasonably certainly will!

[wadledo]

Because if talking reasonably won't work, playing unreasonably certainly will!

If the DM feels that your character concept (that of a blasty caster) isn't going to work, after they (presumably) approved it, shouldn't you be able to say after talking to them "If you don't want me to have fun, why am I playing this?
I'll have just as much fun if my character steamrolls everything."

[Pharaoh's Fist]

But you can't steamroller everything... if you make it a game of you vs the DM, you are going to lose no matter what.

[wadledo]

But you can't steamroller everything... if you make it a game of you vs the DM, you are going to lose no matter what.

"Rocks fall everyone dies" doesn't mean the DM won, it means that they stopped playing.

[Talyn]

Right. And "stopped playing" means that nobody has fun, which means nobody wins.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

"Rocks fall everyone dies" doesn't mean the DM won, it means that they stopped playing.

And that is a loss, no?

[wadledo]

Right. And "stopped playing" means that nobody has fun, which means nobody wins.

And if this person, after being talked to, still arbitrarily decides that they don't like your character, why are they allowed to have fun?
When does one person become more important enough that you have to sacrifice your happiness for their pleasure?:smallamused:


And that is a loss, no?

If your going to lose no matter what, you might as well enjoy losing, instead of doing nothing but sitting in the back and contributing nothing.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

When does one person become more important enough that you have to sacrifice your happiness for their pleasure?:smallamused:

When you're married to them?

[wadledo]

When you're married to them?

Not according to the number of divorces.
And I doubt OP is married to their DM.

[ericgrau]

Empowered Ray of enfeeblement

Ray/wave of exhaustion

Fixed :smalltongue:. Don't forget you multiply by 1.5 after adding, just like the magic missile example in the feat description. I don't try for any of that cheese to make an ability score zero without a save (poison OTOH...). That's why they added that minimum of 1 in the first place: so strong or smart or etc. baddies become enfeebled and stupidified, not weak or dumb baddies becoming limp or comatose. But the spell still really screws over the many baddies that rely on strength to hit and do damage.

[deuxhero]

^Hmm, anything that does 1 or more str damage/penelty without a limit?


Shouldn't be able to use a monk's belt and full plate at the same time.

Wouldn't he loses the AC, but keeps the unarmed strike damage.

edit:druids can't wear half plate and shape shift (unless it was dragonscale).

[quick_comment]

Death by Thorns (bovd) kills on a failed save, stuns on a successful save.

[Volkov]

Envererate, no saving throw, and you slap them with a bushel of negative levels.

[Brock Samson]

Enervate is always good. What about when you're dealing with something immune to it though?

[Keld Denar]

Thats why you diversify your spells.

Chances of something being immune to Enervate in a day? Good.
Chances of EVERYTHING being immune to Enervate in a day? Slim

But, if you know you are gonna be fighting undead a lot, Disintegrate usually works well. Between the lack of Con score and poor Fort progression, Undead are typically immune to everything that requires a fort save but Disintegrate. If undead are regularly making their save vs it, it might be fair to call shananigens.

Regardless, Enervate is good enough to make it onto your spells known list as a sorcerer regardless of what your fighting. Its good!

[Farlion]

Envererate, no saving throw, and you slap them with a bushel of negative levels.

And remember, negative levels from enervation stack.

Cheers,
Farlion

[Paul H]

Hi

Play a Beguiler, take Unsettling Enchantment. Every time someone/something has to make a save against one of your enchantment spells they're -2 AC/-2 to hit for one round. (Doesn't stack).

And they can Buff with Mage Armour, Blur, Haste, Gtr Invis. etc. Debuff with Slow, Dispel Magic, etc.

"Ok - those 10 creatures need to make a DC 24 Will save or take 10D6 non-lethal. Their AC also drops by two, and they take a -2 penalty to hit for one round. Go Barbarian......"

Or just drop Legion of Sentinels around their spellcasters. :smalltongue:

Cheers
Paul H

[Optimystik]

Enervate is always good. What about when you're dealing with something immune to it though?

If it's immune from a spell or item, just dispel first. If it's immune from its race/template (undead, for instance) just use something else.

[Paul H]

Hi

And Dispel Magic/Gtr Dispel are both on the Beguiler list.... :smallsmile:

Cheers
Paul H

[Caeldrim]

I like Illusory Pit from the spell compendium.

Failed saves result in rolling around on the floor going 'aaaaaaaaaaaah' for concentration +1 rounds, successful saves result in a round of being stunned.

[Ganurath]

Apply the Black Lore of Moil to Wave of Exhaustion. Fatigues on a successful saving throw, and as a +0 metamagic feat the Black Lore can allow Arcane Thesis into Twin/Repeat Spell at a lower level.

[Fitz10019]

Not an answer to the OP's repeated question, but a way to get it...
If you have a text-searchable version of the PHB or the Spell Compendium, search for the word 'partial.' This should bounce you through the books hitting on every spell that has an effect even when the save is made.

Or Google the SRD with: Save partial site:http://www.d20srd.org