Roderick_BR
2009-05-08, 03:37 PM
Yes, it's another "let's nerf the caster classes" topic. I'm writting down some rules for a game for my friends. I did some quick changes for fighters and paladins (and possible new rules laters for others classes).
Then I got on the cleric. I never liked how the cleric is pretty much a fighter that casts spells, being able to out-fight both the fighter and the paladin. I though about simply taking the cloistered version, but it would nerf the cleric too much in the direct combat area, turning him into a healbot. After thinking a bit, I got this idea for a variant:
Cleric
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Reflex Save|Will Save|Special|Zero|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th|7th|8th| 9th
1st|+0|+0|+0|+2|Domains|3|1|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
2nd|+1|+0|+0|+3||4|2|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
3rd|+2|+1|+1|+3||5|2|1|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
4th|+3|+1|+1|+4||6|3|2|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
5th|+3|+1|+1|+4|Bonus feat|6|3|2|1|-|-|-|-|-|-
6th|+4|+3|+2|+5||6|3|3|2|-|-|-|-|-|-
7th|+5|+3|+2|+5||6|4|3|2|1|-|-|-|-|-
8th|+6/+1|+3|+2|+6||6|4|3|3|2|-|-|-|-|-
9th|+6/+1|+3|+3|+6||6|4|4|3|2|1|-|-|-|-
10th|+7/+2|+3|+3|+7|Bonus feat|6|4|4|3|3|2|-|-|-|-
11th|+8/+3|+3|+3|+7||6|4|4|4|3|2|1|-|-|-
12th|+9/+4|+5|+4|+8||6|4|4|4|3|3|2|-|-|-
13th|+9/+4|+5|+4|+8||6|4|4|4|4|3|2|1|-|-
14th|+10/+5|+5|+4|+9||6|4|4|4|4|3|3|2|-|-
15th|+11/+6/+1|+5|+5|+9|Bonus feat|6|4|4|4|4|4|3|2|1|-
16th|+12/+7/+2|+5|+5|+10||6|4|4|4|4|4|3|3|2|-
17th|+12/+7/+2|+5|+5|+10||6|4|4|4|4|4|4|3|2|1
18th|+13/+8/+3|+6|+6|+11||6|4|4|4|4|4|4|3|3|2
19th|+14/+9/+4|+6|+6|+11||6|4|4|4|4|4|4|4|3|3
20th|+15/+10/+5|+6|+6|+12|Bonus feat|6|4|4|4|4|4|4|4|4|4[/table]
Skills, HD, saves, and BaB are same as normal.
Weapons and armor: Loses medium and heavy armor and shields proficiency. These can be bough with feats/gained in multiclass as normal.
Spells: Clerics lose the extra spell by domain, but gain more spells/day as shown in the table (starting progression inspired in the sorcerer). When a cleric chooses his two domains, the spells there are added to his list if it's not already. Also, clerics no longer convert prepared spells into expontaneous cure/inflict spells. Instead, they can convert prepared spells into any spell from his domain (as long as it's same level or lesser, as normal). For example, if a cleric chooses Healing and Good as his domain, he can convert a prepared 1st level spells into Cure Light Wounds or Protection from Evil.
I'm also removing "troublesome" spells like Divine Power and Righteous Might.
Turn/rebuke undead: Clerics lose this ability, gaining in it's place a power called Faith Power. Mechanically, it's the same as Turn/Rebuke, but usable only to activate Divine feats. If you pick the Sun domain, you gain the ability to use this power to Turn/Destroy undeads as normal (instead of the Great Turning power). Others domains based on turn/rebuke (like plants or elemental domains) work as normal as well.
I still need to find a domain (or make one) that gives the ability to rebuke/control undead.
Finally, they also gain a bonus feat at levels 5, 10, 15, and 20. These feats can be used to gain divine, metamagic, and item creation feats. They need to meet the requisites as normal.
Divine half-casters, like Ranger and Paladin, works as normal.
Then I started thinking, how should I make the wizard. I don't know yet if someone in my group will play a wizard, but I want to have it ready (and may make some NPCs).
Basically, I'll just use the UA spell point variant. It would also make the rules for divine and arcane magic more distinct (and make wizards easier to play). As with clerics, I'll just take out some trouble spells, maybe move some to higher levels. I'll keep Save-or-sucks, save-or-lose and simply-lose may be banned, and save-or-dies will allow an extra Fort save to reduce the effect from death to "only" being reduced to 0 hit points.
Finally, druids.
Ok, this one will make a lot of people get upset, but they'll get a major nerf: His spells will simply be cut almost in half.
Druid
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Reflex Save|Will Save|Special|Zero|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th
1st|+0|+2|+0|+0|Animal companion, nature sense, wild empathy|2||||||
2nd|+1|+3|+0|+0|Woodland stride|3|0|||||
3rd|+2|+3|+1|+1|Trackless step|3|1|||||
4th|+3|+4|+1|+1|Resist natures lure|3|2|0||||
5th|+3|+4|+1|+1|Wild shape (1/day)|3|3|1||||
6th|+4|+5|+2|+2|Wild shape (2/day)|3|3|2||||
7th|+5|+5|+2|+2|Wild shape (3/day)|3|3|2|0|||
8th|+6/+1|+6|+2|+2|Wild shape (Large)|3|3|3|1|||
9th|+6/+1|+6|+3|+3|Venom immunity|3|3|3|2|||
10th|+7/+2|+7|+3|+3|Wild shape (4/day)|3|3|3|2|0||
11th|+8/+3|+7|+3|+3|Wild shape (Tiny)|3|3|3|3|1||
12th|+9/+4|+8|+4|+4|Wild shape (plant)|3|3|3|3|2||
13th|+9/+4|+8|+4|+4|A thousand faces|3|3|3|3|2|0|
14th|+10/+5|+9|+4|+4|Wild shape (5/day)|4|3|3|3|3|1|
15th|+11/+6/+1|+9|+5|+5|Timeless body, wild shape (Huge)|4|4|3|3|3|2|
16th|+12/+7/+2|+10|+5|+5|Wild shape (elemental 1/day)|4|4|4|3|3|2|0
17th|+12/+7/+2|+10|+5|+5||4|4|4|4|3|3|1
18th|+13/+8/+3|+11|+6|+6|Wild shape (6/day, elemental 2/day)|4|4|4|4|4|3|2
19th|+14/+9/+4|+11|+6|+6||4|4|4|4|4|4|3
20th|+15/+10/+5|+12|+6|+6|Wild shape (elemental 3/day, Huge elemental)|4|4|4|4|4|4|4[/table]
Yes, I used the bard's spell progression. I see the druid as more as a nature expert/warrior than a full caster like the cleric and wizard, that's why he had a smaller spell list to start with. But the way he is, he's a cleric with class features. Instead of nerfing his WildShape, I decided to nerf the spells. With this he can buff himself up while wildshaping, so he doesn't get weaker than a fighter or a ranger. The divine fullcasting will be left to the cleric.
To make up for the loss of spellcasting, I'm thinking about giving something else, maybe some bonuses for when he summons creatures (he can still expontaneously cast summon spells).
So, these are the changes. I'd like to hear opinions on if they are good, based on ease to play, and balance, and what I could add. Remembering that the group I'm playing with are not really optmizers, so I want to add more things to make it easier for them to play.
---
Edit1: Lowered the cleric progression, put Will as good progression, and Fort as bad.
Then I got on the cleric. I never liked how the cleric is pretty much a fighter that casts spells, being able to out-fight both the fighter and the paladin. I though about simply taking the cloistered version, but it would nerf the cleric too much in the direct combat area, turning him into a healbot. After thinking a bit, I got this idea for a variant:
Cleric
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Reflex Save|Will Save|Special|Zero|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th|7th|8th| 9th
1st|+0|+0|+0|+2|Domains|3|1|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
2nd|+1|+0|+0|+3||4|2|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
3rd|+2|+1|+1|+3||5|2|1|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
4th|+3|+1|+1|+4||6|3|2|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
5th|+3|+1|+1|+4|Bonus feat|6|3|2|1|-|-|-|-|-|-
6th|+4|+3|+2|+5||6|3|3|2|-|-|-|-|-|-
7th|+5|+3|+2|+5||6|4|3|2|1|-|-|-|-|-
8th|+6/+1|+3|+2|+6||6|4|3|3|2|-|-|-|-|-
9th|+6/+1|+3|+3|+6||6|4|4|3|2|1|-|-|-|-
10th|+7/+2|+3|+3|+7|Bonus feat|6|4|4|3|3|2|-|-|-|-
11th|+8/+3|+3|+3|+7||6|4|4|4|3|2|1|-|-|-
12th|+9/+4|+5|+4|+8||6|4|4|4|3|3|2|-|-|-
13th|+9/+4|+5|+4|+8||6|4|4|4|4|3|2|1|-|-
14th|+10/+5|+5|+4|+9||6|4|4|4|4|3|3|2|-|-
15th|+11/+6/+1|+5|+5|+9|Bonus feat|6|4|4|4|4|4|3|2|1|-
16th|+12/+7/+2|+5|+5|+10||6|4|4|4|4|4|3|3|2|-
17th|+12/+7/+2|+5|+5|+10||6|4|4|4|4|4|4|3|2|1
18th|+13/+8/+3|+6|+6|+11||6|4|4|4|4|4|4|3|3|2
19th|+14/+9/+4|+6|+6|+11||6|4|4|4|4|4|4|4|3|3
20th|+15/+10/+5|+6|+6|+12|Bonus feat|6|4|4|4|4|4|4|4|4|4[/table]
Skills, HD, saves, and BaB are same as normal.
Weapons and armor: Loses medium and heavy armor and shields proficiency. These can be bough with feats/gained in multiclass as normal.
Spells: Clerics lose the extra spell by domain, but gain more spells/day as shown in the table (starting progression inspired in the sorcerer). When a cleric chooses his two domains, the spells there are added to his list if it's not already. Also, clerics no longer convert prepared spells into expontaneous cure/inflict spells. Instead, they can convert prepared spells into any spell from his domain (as long as it's same level or lesser, as normal). For example, if a cleric chooses Healing and Good as his domain, he can convert a prepared 1st level spells into Cure Light Wounds or Protection from Evil.
I'm also removing "troublesome" spells like Divine Power and Righteous Might.
Turn/rebuke undead: Clerics lose this ability, gaining in it's place a power called Faith Power. Mechanically, it's the same as Turn/Rebuke, but usable only to activate Divine feats. If you pick the Sun domain, you gain the ability to use this power to Turn/Destroy undeads as normal (instead of the Great Turning power). Others domains based on turn/rebuke (like plants or elemental domains) work as normal as well.
I still need to find a domain (or make one) that gives the ability to rebuke/control undead.
Finally, they also gain a bonus feat at levels 5, 10, 15, and 20. These feats can be used to gain divine, metamagic, and item creation feats. They need to meet the requisites as normal.
Divine half-casters, like Ranger and Paladin, works as normal.
Then I started thinking, how should I make the wizard. I don't know yet if someone in my group will play a wizard, but I want to have it ready (and may make some NPCs).
Basically, I'll just use the UA spell point variant. It would also make the rules for divine and arcane magic more distinct (and make wizards easier to play). As with clerics, I'll just take out some trouble spells, maybe move some to higher levels. I'll keep Save-or-sucks, save-or-lose and simply-lose may be banned, and save-or-dies will allow an extra Fort save to reduce the effect from death to "only" being reduced to 0 hit points.
Finally, druids.
Ok, this one will make a lot of people get upset, but they'll get a major nerf: His spells will simply be cut almost in half.
Druid
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Reflex Save|Will Save|Special|Zero|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th
1st|+0|+2|+0|+0|Animal companion, nature sense, wild empathy|2||||||
2nd|+1|+3|+0|+0|Woodland stride|3|0|||||
3rd|+2|+3|+1|+1|Trackless step|3|1|||||
4th|+3|+4|+1|+1|Resist natures lure|3|2|0||||
5th|+3|+4|+1|+1|Wild shape (1/day)|3|3|1||||
6th|+4|+5|+2|+2|Wild shape (2/day)|3|3|2||||
7th|+5|+5|+2|+2|Wild shape (3/day)|3|3|2|0|||
8th|+6/+1|+6|+2|+2|Wild shape (Large)|3|3|3|1|||
9th|+6/+1|+6|+3|+3|Venom immunity|3|3|3|2|||
10th|+7/+2|+7|+3|+3|Wild shape (4/day)|3|3|3|2|0||
11th|+8/+3|+7|+3|+3|Wild shape (Tiny)|3|3|3|3|1||
12th|+9/+4|+8|+4|+4|Wild shape (plant)|3|3|3|3|2||
13th|+9/+4|+8|+4|+4|A thousand faces|3|3|3|3|2|0|
14th|+10/+5|+9|+4|+4|Wild shape (5/day)|4|3|3|3|3|1|
15th|+11/+6/+1|+9|+5|+5|Timeless body, wild shape (Huge)|4|4|3|3|3|2|
16th|+12/+7/+2|+10|+5|+5|Wild shape (elemental 1/day)|4|4|4|3|3|2|0
17th|+12/+7/+2|+10|+5|+5||4|4|4|4|3|3|1
18th|+13/+8/+3|+11|+6|+6|Wild shape (6/day, elemental 2/day)|4|4|4|4|4|3|2
19th|+14/+9/+4|+11|+6|+6||4|4|4|4|4|4|3
20th|+15/+10/+5|+12|+6|+6|Wild shape (elemental 3/day, Huge elemental)|4|4|4|4|4|4|4[/table]
Yes, I used the bard's spell progression. I see the druid as more as a nature expert/warrior than a full caster like the cleric and wizard, that's why he had a smaller spell list to start with. But the way he is, he's a cleric with class features. Instead of nerfing his WildShape, I decided to nerf the spells. With this he can buff himself up while wildshaping, so he doesn't get weaker than a fighter or a ranger. The divine fullcasting will be left to the cleric.
To make up for the loss of spellcasting, I'm thinking about giving something else, maybe some bonuses for when he summons creatures (he can still expontaneously cast summon spells).
So, these are the changes. I'd like to hear opinions on if they are good, based on ease to play, and balance, and what I could add. Remembering that the group I'm playing with are not really optmizers, so I want to add more things to make it easier for them to play.
---
Edit1: Lowered the cleric progression, put Will as good progression, and Fort as bad.