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Roderick_BR
2009-05-08, 03:37 PM
Yes, it's another "let's nerf the caster classes" topic. I'm writting down some rules for a game for my friends. I did some quick changes for fighters and paladins (and possible new rules laters for others classes).
Then I got on the cleric. I never liked how the cleric is pretty much a fighter that casts spells, being able to out-fight both the fighter and the paladin. I though about simply taking the cloistered version, but it would nerf the cleric too much in the direct combat area, turning him into a healbot. After thinking a bit, I got this idea for a variant:

Cleric

{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Reflex Save|Will Save|Special|Zero|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th|7th|8th| 9th
1st|+0|+0|+0|+2|Domains|3|1|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
2nd|+1|+0|+0|+3||4|2|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
3rd|+2|+1|+1|+3||5|2|1|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
4th|+3|+1|+1|+4||6|3|2|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
5th|+3|+1|+1|+4|Bonus feat|6|3|2|1|-|-|-|-|-|-
6th|+4|+3|+2|+5||6|3|3|2|-|-|-|-|-|-
7th|+5|+3|+2|+5||6|4|3|2|1|-|-|-|-|-
8th|+6/+1|+3|+2|+6||6|4|3|3|2|-|-|-|-|-
9th|+6/+1|+3|+3|+6||6|4|4|3|2|1|-|-|-|-
10th|+7/+2|+3|+3|+7|Bonus feat|6|4|4|3|3|2|-|-|-|-
11th|+8/+3|+3|+3|+7||6|4|4|4|3|2|1|-|-|-
12th|+9/+4|+5|+4|+8||6|4|4|4|3|3|2|-|-|-
13th|+9/+4|+5|+4|+8||6|4|4|4|4|3|2|1|-|-
14th|+10/+5|+5|+4|+9||6|4|4|4|4|3|3|2|-|-
15th|+11/+6/+1|+5|+5|+9|Bonus feat|6|4|4|4|4|4|3|2|1|-
16th|+12/+7/+2|+5|+5|+10||6|4|4|4|4|4|3|3|2|-
17th|+12/+7/+2|+5|+5|+10||6|4|4|4|4|4|4|3|2|1
18th|+13/+8/+3|+6|+6|+11||6|4|4|4|4|4|4|3|3|2
19th|+14/+9/+4|+6|+6|+11||6|4|4|4|4|4|4|4|3|3
20th|+15/+10/+5|+6|+6|+12|Bonus feat|6|4|4|4|4|4|4|4|4|4[/table]


Skills, HD, saves, and BaB are same as normal.
Weapons and armor: Loses medium and heavy armor and shields proficiency. These can be bough with feats/gained in multiclass as normal.

Spells: Clerics lose the extra spell by domain, but gain more spells/day as shown in the table (starting progression inspired in the sorcerer). When a cleric chooses his two domains, the spells there are added to his list if it's not already. Also, clerics no longer convert prepared spells into expontaneous cure/inflict spells. Instead, they can convert prepared spells into any spell from his domain (as long as it's same level or lesser, as normal). For example, if a cleric chooses Healing and Good as his domain, he can convert a prepared 1st level spells into Cure Light Wounds or Protection from Evil.
I'm also removing "troublesome" spells like Divine Power and Righteous Might.

Turn/rebuke undead: Clerics lose this ability, gaining in it's place a power called Faith Power. Mechanically, it's the same as Turn/Rebuke, but usable only to activate Divine feats. If you pick the Sun domain, you gain the ability to use this power to Turn/Destroy undeads as normal (instead of the Great Turning power). Others domains based on turn/rebuke (like plants or elemental domains) work as normal as well.
I still need to find a domain (or make one) that gives the ability to rebuke/control undead.

Finally, they also gain a bonus feat at levels 5, 10, 15, and 20. These feats can be used to gain divine, metamagic, and item creation feats. They need to meet the requisites as normal.

Divine half-casters, like Ranger and Paladin, works as normal.

Then I started thinking, how should I make the wizard. I don't know yet if someone in my group will play a wizard, but I want to have it ready (and may make some NPCs).
Basically, I'll just use the UA spell point variant. It would also make the rules for divine and arcane magic more distinct (and make wizards easier to play). As with clerics, I'll just take out some trouble spells, maybe move some to higher levels. I'll keep Save-or-sucks, save-or-lose and simply-lose may be banned, and save-or-dies will allow an extra Fort save to reduce the effect from death to "only" being reduced to 0 hit points.

Finally, druids.
Ok, this one will make a lot of people get upset, but they'll get a major nerf: His spells will simply be cut almost in half.
Druid

{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Reflex Save|Will Save|Special|Zero|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th
1st|+0|+2|+0|+0|Animal companion, nature sense, wild empathy|2|—|—|—|—|—|—
2nd|+1|+3|+0|+0|Woodland stride|3|0|—|—|—|—|—
3rd|+2|+3|+1|+1|Trackless step|3|1|—|—|—|—|—
4th|+3|+4|+1|+1|Resist nature’s lure|3|2|0|—|—|—|—
5th|+3|+4|+1|+1|Wild shape (1/day)|3|3|1|—|—|—|—
6th|+4|+5|+2|+2|Wild shape (2/day)|3|3|2|—|—|—|—
7th|+5|+5|+2|+2|Wild shape (3/day)|3|3|2|0|—|—|—
8th|+6/+1|+6|+2|+2|Wild shape (Large)|3|3|3|1|—|—|—
9th|+6/+1|+6|+3|+3|Venom immunity|3|3|3|2|—|—|—
10th|+7/+2|+7|+3|+3|Wild shape (4/day)|3|3|3|2|0|—|—
11th|+8/+3|+7|+3|+3|Wild shape (Tiny)|3|3|3|3|1|—|—
12th|+9/+4|+8|+4|+4|Wild shape (plant)|3|3|3|3|2|—|—
13th|+9/+4|+8|+4|+4|A thousand faces|3|3|3|3|2|0|—
14th|+10/+5|+9|+4|+4|Wild shape (5/day)|4|3|3|3|3|1|—
15th|+11/+6/+1|+9|+5|+5|Timeless body, wild shape (Huge)|4|4|3|3|3|2|—
16th|+12/+7/+2|+10|+5|+5|Wild shape (elemental 1/day)|4|4|4|3|3|2|0
17th|+12/+7/+2|+10|+5|+5||4|4|4|4|3|3|1
18th|+13/+8/+3|+11|+6|+6|Wild shape (6/day, elemental 2/day)|4|4|4|4|4|3|2
19th|+14/+9/+4|+11|+6|+6||4|4|4|4|4|4|3
20th|+15/+10/+5|+12|+6|+6|Wild shape (elemental 3/day, Huge elemental)|4|4|4|4|4|4|4[/table]

Yes, I used the bard's spell progression. I see the druid as more as a nature expert/warrior than a full caster like the cleric and wizard, that's why he had a smaller spell list to start with. But the way he is, he's a cleric with class features. Instead of nerfing his WildShape, I decided to nerf the spells. With this he can buff himself up while wildshaping, so he doesn't get weaker than a fighter or a ranger. The divine fullcasting will be left to the cleric.
To make up for the loss of spellcasting, I'm thinking about giving something else, maybe some bonuses for when he summons creatures (he can still expontaneously cast summon spells).

So, these are the changes. I'd like to hear opinions on if they are good, based on ease to play, and balance, and what I could add. Remembering that the group I'm playing with are not really optmizers, so I want to add more things to make it easier for them to play.

---
Edit1: Lowered the cleric progression, put Will as good progression, and Fort as bad.

Godskook
2009-05-09, 12:50 AM
What exactly is 'nerfed' about that cleric? He gets more spells/day than a normal cleric, gains spont-casting of domain spells, which is probably more powerful than spont-healing. The turning change keeps the most powerful part of the skill, especially for multiclass characters who wouldn't have the effective cleric levels to use it as originally intended. Oh, he loses armor and two spells(good spells, so I hear, but only two). Doesn't sound that nerfed to me.

Druid on the other hand....why are you killing the only full nature-caster core has? I'd support stripping the caster-druid of some class abilities, but nature needs a full-caster.

Baron Corm
2009-05-09, 01:23 AM
You took away two armor proficiencies, yet gave 4 bonus feats and better spellcasting, and nerfed Turn Undead, which no cleric actually cares about. You become strictly better (other than Will saves) than a normal cleric at either level 5, if you can afford a mithral full plate, or level 10, if you spend a feat to use normal full plate. If you don't care about AC, you're strictly better (other than Will saves) at level 1.

Your real fixes for the cleric and wizard were the spell changes. This is probably the best way to fix spellcaster brokenness, so good job there.

Your druid fix is pretty interesting. Turns them into sort of a duskblade-type character. I think it deserves playtesting.

I don't think taking away the full nature caster is that big of a deal. A cleric with nature domains can function the same, and can even be flavored the same, if they worship "nature as an ideal".

Roderick_BR
2009-05-10, 05:38 PM
@Godskook: I guess I forgot some details. I want to nerf his direct combat abilities, so less armor, and removal of some self-only spells (there are others that I'll either remove, or make it castable on allies). I did increase the spellcasting part, yes. The turn/rebuke undead thing doesn't look too much a nerf, true, unless you need to use actual turn undead, so you'll need to take a specific domain for it (that doesn't give the instant dusting ability anymore).

As an extra thing I'm working on, when you select a domain, you need to follow a certain "code of honor" thing, meaning that you can't just be a cleric of whatever and do what you want, as long as you remain within range of your deity's alignment. For example, taking healing domain forces you to spend time healing wounded people, and taking war domain forces you to not flee battles (unless they are hopeless anyway). It's still a work in progress.

Wizards didn't change much, as I said, I'll change more his spells directly.

Druids got the bad end of the nerf stick, true, and that's why I'm checking books for things to add to him, but I still think he doesn't need to be a full caster, if you already have clerics that can play that role with the correct domains and feat selections. Druid is hardly the "only nature full caster" in core.

@flyingpoo22
Yes, casting does get you better than default cleric. I want him versatile and powerful in casting, as much as wizard with arcane casting. I'm just reducing his direct combat abilities. BTW, the will save progression is wrong here, it should be a good progression. My bad :smallsigh:

Thanks, I want to make the druid be different than the cleric (maybe change the sorcerer in the same way as well. I'll look into it). Yep, you can still be a nature's full caster with clerics. I want to make clerics be more about divine spellscasting than the typical "militar" look they have, so you can be a nature cleric without problems.
Still need to find something to make up a little for the lower spellcasting.

Thanks for the reviews. The group I was going to play with couldn't play this week, so I have more time to work on it. I think I just need to look up the spells now.

Goatman_Ted
2009-05-10, 06:27 PM
So, these are the changes. I'd like to hear opinions on if they are good, based on ease to play, and balance, and what I could add. Remembering that the group I'm playing with are not really optmizers, so I want to add more things to make it easier for them to play.
Based on "ease of play" I think you went in the wrong direction with the Druid -- it keeps the biggest paperwork problems in the game: polymorph effects and multiple characters. For a quick fix, I would recommend enforcing a choice between PHB2's Shapeshift or the UA's Ascetic Hunter alternate class features. Or coming up with homebrew in a similar vein.

From a balance perspective, they're both still pretty strong: the Druid still has Wild Shape and an Animal Companion, and the Cleric improves in most respects.

If you want the Cleric to stay out of melee, I would drop the BA and HD a step apiece. If players want to be melee combatants, let them multiclass (that's what it's for).
If you're going to buff the Cleric with free metamagic and Divine feats, you need to gimp them significantly in return (especially if your goal is to make them less powerful). Dropping them to Bard-level spellcasting sounds about right to me.

If the goal is just to keep them from out-fighting the Fighter, all you need to do is drop DMM Persist. Or just keep Nightsticks from stacking. As soon as the Cleric has to burn a combat round buffing, the Fighter stops being the underdog (in melee, anyway; the fundamental power-differences between casters and non-casters remain).

I don't know if this would be useful or not, but in some of my games we've dabbled with making many buffs and mobility spells affect the group as a whole (so when the Wizard casts Dimension Door, the whole group moves at once; when the Cleric casts fly, the whole group takes to the air).
We've had good luck with it -- without actually increasing the power of the effects available to the Wizard, support spells become more appealing and the whole group gains many of the benefits of being a spellcaster. Parties can become much stronger (especially when they're made up of only casters), but party imbalance seems to have all but disappeared.

Another_Poet
2009-05-11, 09:22 AM
I have to echo the criticism above.

For druid, the easy fix always has been and still is: make the player choose wild shape or animal companion, not both. Once they choose, the choice is permanent, liker a Ranger choosing TWF or Archery.

Once you do that you probably don't even have to swap out true Wildshape for Shapeshift. Thought it wouldn't hurt to do so.

In addition I would consider altering the Summon Nature's Ally spells to discourage their over-use. My favourite fix is to give the summoned creatures free will. The Druid can make one diplomacy/wild empathy check when they are first summoned to try to get them to do what he/she wants. If it fails they have their own agenda.

Of course most people don't like risky spells so if that doesn't suit you just make each Summon spell one level higher or take away spontaneous summoning.

ap

Roderick_BR
2009-05-11, 06:24 PM
Ok, I'll reduce the cleric's spells/day. As I said, I want him to be more caster-ish, like wizards. The extra feats are enough for it.
I already don't allow DMM nor persist.

As for the druid, I will maintain the smaller spell list. Clerics will fill the divine full caster role. I'll keep the druid as an nature expert with his other class features. I'm not of the mindset that a character without 9th level spells is uterly useless as some people put. A wildshaping druid with animal companion can still get good enough buffs to be both strong in the battlefield and versatile.