[3.5] The Tarrasque, how to make a challenge for EL 21 party

[Capricornus]

Hello all, I'm currently DMing a D&D 3.5 campaign reaching the end of its run and in order to give my players some fan service, I'm putting them up against the Tarrasque. The MM Tarrasque is fine, but I want to enhance it to make it a serious challenge for my party, which are all level 21 currently. I can advance it in HD, which is something I'm pretty familiar with, but I thought I would check with some other experienced DMs who may have done something of the sort in the past or have some insights into modifying creatures in the MM. I've considered adding Tarrasque babies (or using the MM version itself as the baby) or giving the beast flight somehow. Here's the party makeup:

L21 Dwarf Barbarian
L21 Elf Druid
L21 Elf Wizard
L21 Human Monk (Vow of Poverty)

They all have access to the Complete books, Magic Item Compendium, PHB2, and Spell Compendium.

I've looked at the MM stats and it's pretty good, but are there any tricks other DMs have witnessed players using that pretty much nullify the Tarrasque without a fight? Anything I should be on the lookout for?

Any help is appreciated. Thanks!

[arkol]

Mass fly, and it pretty much is not a challenge anymore.... that's assuming that by now the players don't already fly somehow....

[Sstoopidtallkid]

There was a thread a while back where people restatted the Tarrasque using other feats. It got pretty good(almost to the point where it could challange a 20th Wizard). The key was Martial Study/Stance from ToB, Epic feats from anywhere(including Blinding Speed), the Mageslayer line, and IIRC something from Magic of Incarnum to give it Flight.

The weakness of Mr. T is the fact that all strategies for non-flying enemies after level 10 break down to 'Fly out of reach and drop rocks', the strategy for melee brutes with massive AB is 'stacking miss chance', and the strategy for someone without teleportation is Wall of Force. Get rid of those weaknesses, and they have to attack other weaknesses.

Of course, you still have to beat Ability Drain and Dominate Monster, but those are the bane of anyone not specifically immune.

[tyckspoon]

At a minimum the Tarrasque needs flight/a decent ranged attack and some way to attack incorporeal opponents. That takes care of the obvious methods of evading it and forces your party to at least be a little creative in how they deal with T. Just giving it more HD is pretty pointless; big dumb melee beatsticks are simply not appropriate Epic opponents, and advancing HD just makes it bigger and beatsticky-er (consider giving it a few more points of Intelligence, however- a big smart melee beatstick can still be pretty frightening). You should also feel free to swap out those six instances of Toughness for something useful; maybe Throw Anything so it can hurl trees, cows, houses, etc at people (or, if you make it smart, give it some levels in Hulking Hurler for Really Throw Anything.) If nothing else, swap all the Toughness for Epic Toughness. Magic of Incarnum is also a pretty good resource for that; a few selections of Shape Soulmeld/Open Chakra can give it flight and give its attacks the [Force] descriptor, which covers incorporeal.

[Eldariel]

Make it a Half-Fiend or Half-Dragon. Increases CR by 2 (3 for Fiend - I like Fiend 'cause it'd get more skills that way). You'll need to to give it 4 HD (1 point of CR) to give it an extra point of Int to qualify if using Half-Fiend. This covers the flight-issue and gives it a bunch of handy abilities. Please note that it still doesn't have any ranged weaponry which is a huge problem if the players are smart enough to just skirmish against it; that one burst per minute is negated by 1 Teleport/minute and otherwise it can't catch them, being forced to just take hits until it fails a save/dies. Also, note that while it's immune to ability damage, it's not immune to ability drain (two very different things), so a simple Allip (CR 3 creature) can kill it. Also note that its natural weapons aren't magical out of the box so it can't hit incorporeals.

It has crappy touch AC, bad AC and not-amazing spell resistance. Those are its biggest weaknesses. Basically, anything hits it so it needs to try and tank the bad stuff with immunities, HP and saves (which are all rather respectable, except for the Will-save, but that's quickly fixed by giving it the "Steadfast Determination"-feat which derives Will off Con and makes it immune to failing Fort-saves preventing "machine gun" to wait until it rolls a 1).

This means some spells are horribly efficient against it, and all kinds of high damage one-trick builds tend to work vs. it just fine. I suggest looking into improving its defenses.


One thing to remember is that the Tarrasque has had its feats selected from an inexistent pool. It has, among other things, Toughnessx6; this means it has spent 6 feats to gain 18 HP, less than 3% of its whole HP; such a miniscule amount that the chances of it even factoring into the thing's dying point are practically inexistent.

I strongly suggest you reselect its feats from a more appropriate pool. Use at least the general Brute-feats from PHBII, PHB and all the sources you're allowing. Also note that it qualifies for Epic feats for most of its feats (all but 7 first; feats from HD 21-> are Epic) so you could select what it qualifies for otherwise from this list (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/epicFeats.htm).


Basically, to make the Tarrasque a challenge:
-Give it some way to flight or fight in an environment where flight doesn't destroy it.
-Give it something that increases its speed, or more likely just something that allows fighting at a range.
-Rework its feats.
-Handwave the lack of Ability Drain-immunity, and make its natural weapons magical so it can hit incorporeals.
-Consider reworking its skills; it could have quite the Spot & Listen, for example, which would allow it to penetrate Invisibility (another huge issue the thing suffers of), and Illusions if you get the Spot-check to hit 80.


EDIT: For ranged attacks, the only thing that really worked was the "Detach"-feat from Savage Species; basically it allows the Tarrasque to rip up a part of itself that can deal damage, and use that part as a thrown weapon. This could work, especially if you decide that those spikes on its back count as weapons. Range increment 20', but better than nothing; you can still throw it 100' away, or 200' with Far Shot and if picking Power Shot, the Tarrasque can PA for up to 48.

[Draken]

Don't forget to give it the 500 feet radius aura of flight limitation they gave him in 4th Edition.

That was an interesting solution to deal with flight, really. No one can fly out of his range.

[angus cotton]

Illusions also work well.

[SurlySeraph]

There was a thread a while back where people restatted the Tarrasque using other feats. It got pretty good(almost to the point where it could challange a 20th Wizard). The key was Martial Study/Stance from ToB, Epic feats from anywhere(including Blinding Speed), the Mageslayer line, and IIRC something from Magic of Incarnum to give it Flight.

That'd be this thread. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87000)

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Give the Tarrasque a bubble of AMF. It's only (Su) ability is the Fear Aura, which is pretty pathetic at these levels. The primary types of spells that can get through that are the Orb Of X series, which have a 30% chance of returning to sender, postage due, due to his Carapace. That will, if Big T can close with them before they take flight, also negate their Flight.

[Chronos]

Since that re-feat thread died out, I've thought about it some more:
First, Tome of Battle maneuvers turn out to not be as useful as we'd thought, by RAW, since Adaptive Style requires having a level of Crusader, Swordsage, or Warblade (and besides, what's the point in teleporting 50' when you're 70' long?). Second, nobody in that thread (myself included) noticed the Crystal Helm soulmeld, which can make his attacks [force]. Third, it turns out that flight (albeit very slow flight) is available at a cost of only two feats, not three, thanks to Astral Vambraces (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20060217a).

A rundown of good feats to take:
Endurance (prereq for Steadfast Determination)
Steadfast Determination (much better Will save, never fail Fort saves)
Open Least Chakra: Head (allows binding Crystal Helm and also helps a bit with Will saves)
Shape Soulmeld: Crystal Helm (helps a bit more with Will saves, and gives attacks Force descriptor)
Open Lesser Chakra: Arms (allows binding Astral Vambraces)
Shape Soulmeld: Astral Vambraces (gives Flight)
Open Least Chakra: Hands (allows binding Sphinx Claws)
Shape Soulmeld: Sphinx Claws (grants Pounce)
Open Soul Chakra (epic): Allows binding Keeneye Lenses
Shape Soulmeld: Keeneye Lenses (True Seeing)
Power Attack: Goes without saying
Combat Reflexes: Also goes without saying

Which still leaves you with five more feats to pick, all of which can be epic.

Of course, that thread was restricted to feats, just for the sake of discussion, but you don't have to stick to that restriction. Big T is smart enough to qualify for class levels, and even a single level in any Tome of Battle class or Incarnate can give very nice benefits.


One other point, if you want to challenge a level 21 party: Do any of your casters have Epic Spellcasting? And if so, what epic spells do they know? Any other significant resources, like their own private demiplane where they can take some time to prepare for this fight?

[Salt_Crow]

I like giving Tarrasque Half-Fiend template. EAT CL 48 Blasphemy!!

[arkol]

As fun as it could be it's RAW illegal... but hey if you're the DM you can ignore that tiny detail... but here's why:


"Half-fiend" is an inherited template that can be added to any living, corporeal creature with an Intelligence score of 4 or more and nongood alignment (referred to hereafter as the base creature).


Abilities: Str 45, Dex 16, Con 35, Int 3, Wis 14, Cha 14

[chiasaur11]

As fun as it could be it's RAW illegal... but hey if you're the DM you can ignore that tiny detail... but here's why:

Awakened Tarrasque.

With, of course, a monocle.

[Lycanthromancer]

Don't just add on a couple of initiator levels and call it good; replace its racial HD with initiator and meldshaper levels, so you don't have to spend all Mr. T's feats on opening its chakras.

Make an epic abomination worthy of BEING epic. Make it an awakened phrenic Magical Beast 20/Warblade 20/totemist 20, and give the players an epic quest to defeat a legendary beast. Of epic legend.

Though, as you'd imagine, a core wizard 20 could quite probably take him out within a round, assuming he's prepared and ready to destroy the game, but I doubt you'd allow that kind of hideously overpowered cheese....right?

[Icewalker]

A magic dispelling ability somewhere would be handy for dealing with those pesky fly spells, as well as a number of other similar problems. Just a possible option.

[Capricornus]

Wow, thanks so much for the replies so far!

As for the party, the wizard just leveled to 21 so I don't know if he took Epic Spellcasting. Not sure about the Druid either. I've got at least a couple weeks to get this ready, so I can check on that. They don't have a private demiplane, not sure what benefit that would have, as it's not as though the Tarrasque knows they're coming. They're not also insane optimizers, and I don't know how much their players know about the Tarrasque, though they do have their own Monster Manuals...

Looking at that other thread, and Chronos' kind summary, I've got lots to consider, but a flying, force-weaponed, true-seeing Tarrasque would certainly fit the bill for horrifying my players.

And yes, a CL 48 Blasphemy is amusing. Not strictly possible out of the gate, but that can be got around. Not the route I'm going though. I did consider a Monster of Legend template though, but wasn't quite good enough, though I may give it a second look.

Question: Where does that Epic Spellcasting Harrier feat come from? The one in the Epic Level Handbook I have isn't the same as what you're describing.

Edit: Yes! A monocle! I wish I could work that in somehow. :D

[Eldariel]

As fun as it could be it's RAW illegal... but hey if you're the DM you can ignore that tiny detail... but here's why:

Advancing it by 4 HD gives it an ability score increase it can put into Int (it's got Humanoid intelligence so adding it to Int is a fair game). I even said as much. It's got unlimited advancement table, and 4 HD is just 1 CR. Also, as a bonus, this means CL 52 Blasphemy (of course, I'd hold back on using it in a normal game; in fact, I'd remove it unless you happen to be a murderous DM who wants to say "Rock falls, everyone dies." in which case it's a decent move to reconsider DMing).

I'd make it a half-fiend for:
8+Int (in this case, -1; Half-Fiend increases it by 4) skills (lots of epic checks)!
Wings (yes, it needs 'em or an equivalent)

and that's about it. Those spell-likes are superb being derived off Cha & HD (this being something they have plenty of), but I don't think you should use them to their given potential against most players. Of course, properly played epic caster is still in no danger, but I doubt you'd be seeing those.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Give it Divine Rank 0 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineRanksAndPowers.htm), most of the benefits would be redundant with the immunities it already has, but it would get the following:
*Base land speed 140 ft.
*Maximum HP per hit die
*Skills that grant synergy bonuses grant another +2 synergy bonus at 25 ranks, and again at 45 ranks, and so on
*Immunity to polymorph and transmutation effects, such as Flesh to Stone
*Immunity to mind-affecting effects

Give it the Phrenic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/phrenicCreature.htm) template from XPH, keep in mind that psi-like abilities are always used as though augmented for the max, which is really powerful at 48 HD. The +2 Int also qualifies it for Half-Fiend. That gives it wings for a 140 ft. fly speed and some useful spell-like abilities. It should have around +50 to spot and listen, +40 to hide, +50 survival, etc. With its speed it can overtake any party, and no longer will the PCs go track it down and start the encounter, if they go looking for it the tarrasque spots them first, have time to buff with Unholy Aura, and may even get a surprise round on them. Give it the feats Improved Flight for good maneuverability and Magic in the Blood (PGtF) to use its 1/day spell-like (and possibly psi-like) abilities 3/day. Considering Destruction, Horrid Wilting, 48d10 DC 39 Mind Thrust, and caster level 48 Blasphemy, the PCs will want it to be full attacking someone every round. It could (should) even get Quicken Spell-Like Ability: Poison (DC 39!) and maybe Maximize Spell-Like Ability: Horrid Wilting.

[Lappy9000]

Awakened Tarrasque.

With, of course, a monocle.Why bother with anything else if your setting's tarrasque wears a monocle? I'd suggest a +4 Dastardly Moustachio of Flight.

[chiasaur11]

Why bother with anything else if your setting's tarrasque wears a monocle? I'd suggest a +4 Dastardly Moustachio of Flight.

And, of course, a top hat.

[Ravens_cry]

Don't forget to give it the 500 feet radius aura of flight limitation they gave him in 4th Edition.

That was an interesting solution to deal with flight, really. No one can fly out of his range.
Just means you fly higher to drop the rocks. Yes, it takes longer, but if your dropping from higher so the rocks hurt more.

[Draken]

Just means you fly higher to drop the rocks. Yes, it takes longer, but if your dropping from higher so the rocks hurt more.

I am pretty sure that was just the horizontal Radius, while the aura itself is a cilinder reaching up into the stratosphere.

If it is not, well, it should be. :smalltongue:

[Talic]

1) Environment. This bad boy has a burrow speed. Few things damage a caster's ability to hurt monsters like 5 feet of dirt. Also, monster placement. If it's terrorizing underground communities, there's less that can be done with the mythical 2 mile rock drop.

2) Retool feats. As has been evidenced, Big T has way too many horrible feats. There's a lot of in depth information already in this thread, so I won't go further.

3) Templating options. Dragonborn, perhaps? Breath weapons would make for fun, specially if you metabreath them up.

[Poil]

I am pretty sure that was just the horizontal Radius, while the aura itself is a cilinder reaching up into the stratosphere.

If it is not, well, it should be. :smalltongue:

Wouldn't that be devastating to anyone flying over where it is sleeping? Should also make it pretty easy to find once a high level mage starts to examine why flight always fails in a particular area (once one of them survives the fall that is).

[Oslecamo]

Equipment, nuff said.

Give the tarrasque one class level of anything, and it sudenly gets equipment...Based on it's ECL! Wich is OVER 9000!(actually around over 50-60 but you get the point).

It also instantly gets the elite array of stats for free granting him the necessary intelegence to use equipment.

Like other said something to grant him flight, something to grant him magic attacks, ect, ect.

For extra evilness make the equipment be in the form ot magic tatoos. They cost double, but can't be destroyed and the party can't get their hands on them if they defeat Mr. big T.

[Coidzor]

A magic dispelling ability somewhere would be handy for dealing with those pesky fly spells, as well as a number of other similar problems. Just a possible option.

... Anti-Magic Breath anyone?

[Wulfram]

Give the Tarrasque an accompanying Windstorm. Should stop anyone from flying, and complicate matters on the ground too

[sonofzeal]

1) Environment. This bad boy has a burrow speed. Few things damage a caster's ability to hurt monsters like 5 feet of dirt. Also, monster placement. If it's terrorizing underground communities, there's less that can be done with the mythical 2 mile rock drop.

2) Retool feats. As has been evidenced, Big T has way too many horrible feats. There's a lot of in depth information already in this thread, so I won't go further.

3) Templating options. Dragonborn, perhaps? Breath weapons would make for fun, specially if you metabreath them up.
A creature that big, with a burrow speed? No, no, you want Earth Glide for this. That way it doesn't leave massive tunnels for the party to follow and catch it from behind.

[InaVegt]

A creature that big, with a burrow speed? No, no, you want Earth Glide for this. That way it doesn't leave massive tunnels for the party to follow and catch it from behind.

Creatures with a burrow speed leave, by default, no tunnels to walk through.

[sonofzeal]

Creatures with a burrow speed leave, by default, no tunnels to walk through.
I'm not disputing that might be the official rule (though I've never seen it; quote?), but that seriously strains credibility. :smalltongue:

[InaVegt]

I'm not disputing that might be the official rule (though I've never seen it; quote?), but that seriously strains credibility. :smalltongue:


Originally Posted by d20SRD.org http://www.giantitp.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#burrow)
A creature with a burrow speed can tunnel through dirt, but not through rock unless the descriptive text says otherwise. Creatures cannot charge or run while burrowing. Most burrowing creatures do not leave behind tunnels other creatures can use (either because the material they tunnel through fills in behind them or because they do not actually dislocate any material when burrowing); see the individual creature descriptions for details.

I slightly misremembered it, saying it was the default, rather than just most. So by RAW it seems up to DM interpretation, which means that, in this case, it depends on how mean the DM is feeling.

[Coidzor]

I guess it might be more whether B.T. is doing it through brute clawy-strength or through schome kind of magic schmap, but, eh, suffice to say, line of effect can get dealt with that way... and it would make for an interesting time having PCs **** themselves when they realize they're actually in a Tarrasque tunnel in the underdark or other suitable area for massive tunnels...

[Eldariel]

I guess it might be more whether B.T. is doing it through brute clawy-strength or through schome kind of magic schmap, but, eh, suffice to say, line of effect can get dealt with that way... and it would make for an interesting time having PCs **** themselves when they realize they're actually in a Tarrasque tunnel in the underdark or other suitable area for massive tunnels...

Better make use of F&K's rules of underground; Teleportation doesn't work through enough rock. Then it truly gets interesting.

[Sir Giacomo]

Talic's idea of burrowing speed is great.

What about making some Dune-like monster of it (with some of the advancement you and others suggested)?

Basically, the first step is to give it a different name and make it look completely differently so that the pcs have no clue what they are up against.

- Giacomo

[Talic]

I'm not disputing that might be the official rule (though I've never seen it; quote?), but that seriously strains credibility. :smalltongue:

Not at all. Leaves loose, collapsed soil/rubble. Most passages that large would cave-in without support.

And I doubt Big T is big on shoring up his shaft.

Note, it doesn't say it leaves it perfect. It just says it doesn't leave behind a "Usable" tunnel. Collapsed rubble would qualify.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

As big as he is though, you could probably easily tell where he's going as he burrows because he'd leave a Bugs Bunny trail.

[Olo Demonsbane]

If both of your players took epic spellcasting, there is only one way to go.

Codzilla!

Literally. Give the Tarrasaque 17 levels in cleric, plus a bit more intellegence so that it can make good strategic decisions.

[Zhalath]

Make its eyes shoot anti-magic rays, a la Draconomicon. Strike fear in your players, especially casters.

Alternatively, disintegrating breath weapon, like Bahamut's (yes, like Bahamut's, except not absurdly powerful).

Also, describe it like some sort of Cosmic Horror. As many have said before me, if they can't meta-identify it, they'll have no idea what to do.

[Talic]

As big as he is though, you could probably easily tell where he's going as he burrows because he'd leave a Bugs Bunny trail.

That would imply a usable trail. No, if it burrows straight down? You see a sinkhole with jagged rocks at the bottom. First sign it was coming up? Rumbling earth.

Second sign? Ground disintigrating beneath your feet.

[Ravens_cry]

That would imply a usable trail. No, if it burrows straight down? You see a sinkhole with jagged rocks at the bottom. First sign it was coming up? Rumbling earth.

Second sign? Ground disintigrating beneath your feet.
Third sign?
Acid Damage. :smallbiggrin:

[Myrmex]

As fun as it could be it's RAW illegal... but hey if you're the DM you can ignore that tiny detail... but here's why:

That's with the tarrasque using 10 10 10 11 11 11 as stats. No reason you couldn't change it to elite array or something. So it's not illegal at all.

[Myrmex]

I am pretty sure that was just the horizontal Radius, while the aura itself is a cilinder reaching up into the stratosphere.

If it is not, well, it should be. :smalltongue:

It leaves a path of destruction and dead birds in its wake....

[Lycanthromancer]

It could very well be the cure for rampaging locust plagues.

[Tiki Snakes]

Codzilla!

No. Close, though.

Make it aquatic, have it live in the sea. Rather than the tarrasque's usual 50 feet tall, it is now 50 meters tall. Minimum. more likely 100, which is about 328 feet.

In addition it now has a breath weapon of incredible strength and pinpoint accuracy, able to hit a target in space.

You could call him the King of All Monsters. It's quicker just to switch the C for a G, though. :)
Also; Here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powers_and_abilities_of_Godzilla)

[chiasaur11]

No. Close, though.

Make it aquatic, have it live in the sea. Rather than the tarrasque's usual 50 feet tall, it is now 50 meters tall. Minimum. more likely 100, which is about 328 feet.

In addition it now has a breath weapon of incredible strength and pinpoint accuracy, able to hit a target in space.

You could call him the King of All Monsters. It's quicker just to switch the C for a G, though. :)
Also; Here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powers_and_abilities_of_Godzilla)

That would require removing the ability to Wish it dead, though.

[Ascension]

Unbreakable Aegis of Plot (Ex): The Tarrasque is injured only when dramatically appropriate.

Comic Book Resurrection (Ex): The Tarrasque stays dead only when dramatically appropriate. And often not even then.

[Tiki Snakes]

That would require removing the ability to Wish it dead, though.

The 'only dies if you cast wish' thing is just flat out dumb anyway. The 4th ed tarrasque is generally much less frustratingly arbitrary, in that sense.

Think about it though. Godzilla is something like 5 times bigger than the tarrasque *at least*. And unlike the Tarrasque, is just as dangerous from a mile away or more.

I'd just love to see the face on players when they realise that the tarrasque is that big that they can see him cresting the horizon from a mile away, then, moments later, with a scream like a dying heavy metal guitar, and he blasts them with a scorching blast of [/i]Atomic Breath[/i].

Plus, frankly, giving the tarrasque the Ocean to hide in is much cooler than him burrowing around in the dirt. Harder to track, harder to predict, frankly. And, for those rare moments when your epic dudes Aren't flying around fully buffed, they'll really have to be sitting on some kind of fragile wooden contraption. It's all good.

[Kylarra]

Plus he has a warforged counterpart (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mechagodzilla). :smallwink:

[Lycanthromancer]

Wouldn't that be half-golem?

[chiasaur11]

Wouldn't that be half-golem?

That'd be Kiryu.

[Eldrys]

If he had the burrow speed and was in the tunnel(or cave home) when the PCs encounter him, that wil be a more reasonable way to deal with flight. Big T could even collapse the tunnel (cave entrance) so that the PCs could not escape

[Swordguy]

I suppose something to ask is that, if you're giving Big T spellcasting, or flight, or cleric levels, or what-have-you to make him competitive at CR20...is he really a "Tarrasque" anymore, or just another big spellcaster?

I mean, the spirit behind Big T has always been a huge, city-eating, unstoppable melee brute. Giving him spellcasting and flight just makes him YET ANOTHER variation on the evil wizard BBEG. Shouldn't the point be making the Tarrasque competitive while keeping to the primary concept behind the monster?

[Eldariel]

Unbreakable Aegis of Plot (Ex): The Tarrasque is injured only when dramatically appropriate.

Comic Book Resurrection (Ex): The Tarrasque stays dead only when dramatically appropriate. And often not even then.

So uhh, you make The Tarrasque Sailor Moon? Can't say I approve.

[Lycanthromancer]

I suppose something to ask is that, if you're giving Big T spellcasting, or flight, or cleric levels, or what-have-you to make him competitive at CR20...is he really a "Tarrasque" anymore, or just another big spellcaster?

I mean, the spirit behind Big T has always been a huge, city-eating, unstoppable melee brute. Giving him spellcasting and flight just makes him YET ANOTHER variation on the evil wizard BBEG. Shouldn't the point be making the Tarrasque competitive while keeping to the primary concept behind the monster?

The problem is that you can't be competitive at higher levels without spellcasting. Even ToB withers by then, and it's the best that martial characters can get.

Still, a boatload of immunities and lethal maneuvers WOULD be the best way to go for a 'melee brute,' though spellcasters will still walk all over him.

[Eldariel]

The problem is that you can't be competitive at higher levels without spellcasting. Even ToB withers by then, and it's the best that martial characters can get.

Still, a boatload of immunities and lethal maneuvers WOULD be the best way to go for a 'melee brute,' though spellcasters will still walk all over him.

You could rebuild it to be a veritable threat, I suppose. Make it something like Lavos's shell from Chrono Trigger. The kinds of ranged Spike-attacks (I still like the idea of using Detach on it and having it hurl its Horns in lieu of its full attack) would easily negate its primary weakness. Then just plain having high enough Spot & Listen to mostly penetrate illusions and such and giving it high enough saves and immunities (I think it should just have Abomination-immunities; after all, it is an Abomination - and it shouldn't autofail saves on 1 so spamming Dominate Monster/Mind Jar/such doesn't automatically get you a pet Tarrasque) would make it a veritable threat. Sure, it can't follow planar or even teleport, but it'll get to you eventually and in its wake, leave a swath of destruction that has no equal.

That said, I still prefer making it able to fly. Then give it some more cool abilities to move überfast when it wants to (like Rush++) and ranged attacks and abilities to combat basic magical forms of defenses and it can have fun.

[Y'nokhs]

I would suggest switching out some of the toughnesses for Deflect Arrows, Exceptional Deflection, and Infinite Deflection. Bye-bye boulder strategy. If you're really feeling mean you can give it Reflect Arrows. Another possibility is to give it Spell Stowaway (fly) as a bonus feat. Thus, if your players can fly...so can the Tarrasque. Round that off with a few shots of Blinding Speed or Epic Speed, and you've got one bad customer.

[Swordguy]

The problem is that you can't be competitive at higher levels without spellcasting. Even ToB withers by then, and it's the best that martial characters can get.

Still, a boatload of immunities and lethal maneuvers WOULD be the best way to go for a 'melee brute,' though spellcasters will still walk all over him.

Then you need to find some way to neutralize magic cast against it, not give the Tarresque magic, class levels, or a high INT score itself. What's more, it needs to not be SR or high saves, since both are trivial to bypass.

Frankly, I'd just drop the following onto it:
-There is a 30% chance that ANY spell cast upon the Tarrasque is reflected back upon the caster.

-Immune to force damage, bolts, orbs, rays (from 2e) (though a spell of such nature cast against the Tarresque may be reflected back upon the caster as normal)

-Immune to ability damage or drain (though a spell of such nature cast against the Tarresque may be reflected back upon the caster as normal)

-Immune to movement or sense-impairing effects that directly target the Tarraque itself, or an area smaller than its "footprint" (IIRC, 30'x70') including spells like deafness or glitterdust (though a spell of such nature cast against the Tarresque may be reflected back upon the caster as normal)

-Equalizing presence (ex): Spells may not be cast within 150' feet of the Tarrasque. This includes using scrolls and using command-activated magical items. Persistent spells cast outside this radius (or magical items that mimic said spells) fail to function within this radius if the caster level of the spell is equal to or less than the Tarrasque's hit dice.

-+ (arbitrarily large number, at least 30) to Listen and Spot checks

-Epic creature (ex): the Tarrasque does not fail saving throws on a 1.

-The Tarrasque may move its full movement allowance and still make use of all its attack modes.

-The Tarrasque's Spell Resistance or Saving Throws may not be lowered in any way. Spells cast to lower said defenses automatically fail after being cast.



No, it's not a bunch of RAW abilities. Here's the thing, though...it's the damn TARRASQUE. It's supposed to be the biggest, baddest challenge to PCs during their rise from 1st to 20th level. If anything can have stuff made up to make it such a challenge, it deserves it.

[Eldrys]

I'me just saying, it's not a god it's not supposed to be friggin invicible, it's supposed to be tough with anti-magic eyerays and stuff everyone is talking about the only wa to actually kill the thing is to get a few helpful giant rock-throwers and have them kill the thing. But oh wait Regeneration 40 and cannot actually be killed except by getting it 865 points of nonleathel damage against it then casting wish.

[Swordguy]

I'me just saying, it's not a god it's not supposed to be friggin invicible, it's supposed to be tough with anti-magic eyerays and stuff everyone is talking about the only wa to actually kill the thing is to get a few helpful giant rock-throwers and have them kill the thing.

It's a melee brute. The idea is that your party's melee characters go toe-to-toe with the thing and beat it down. It's a huge, epic fight...or at least, it's supposed to be. ANYTHING that keeps it from being 1-shotted by the wizard is a "correct" fix.

The way to kill the tarresque has always been to deplete it's HP to -30, and then wish the bastard dead. It supposed to force you to deal HP damage to kill it, not just chuck around status effects and/or save-or-dies. Look! A reason to cast evocation spells!

[Myrmex]

Look! A reason to cast evocation spells!

As long as you're immune to the damage type you're using....

[Sstoopidtallkid]

It's a melee brute. The idea is that your party's melee characters go toe-to-toe with the thing and beat it down. It's a huge, epic fight...or at least, it's supposed to be. ANYTHING that keeps it from being 1-shotted by the wizard is a "correct" fix.

The way to kill the tarresque has always been to deplete it's HP to -30, and then wish the bastard dead. It supposed to force you to deal HP damage to kill it, not just chuck around status effects and/or save-or-dies. Look! A reason to cast evocation spells!Except the only melee brutes that can take it on are considered cheese by many. Most Fighters have AC of what, 30-40? We'll say 40. The Tarrasque can hit that on a 2, dealing ~233 points of damage(PA). That takes out most d8-d10 characters(who will probably only have 20-22 Con). So other than the average Raging Barbarian, every character who goes against Mr T in close combt dies after one attack. Chargers can't charge(Colossal+Combat Reflexes), Lockdown is useless(you want it anywhere else), it's immune to most special combat actions(Trip, Disarm, Grapple, etc), most Rogue tricks(Poison, SA, skirmishing[as a fighting style, not a Scout], hiding), what's left but casting? Part of the reason magic is always pulled out agains melee brute monsters is that it works when the PC melee brutes would get creamed.

[Myrmex]

Part of the reason magic is always pulled out agains melee brute monsters is that it works when the PC melee brutes would get creamed.

The other part is that magic always works better than any other solution. Tripping is pathetically ineffective compared to magic, in virtually every situation. Melee never gets pulled out for anything. They're just their because some guy likes swords, and wants to use one.

So there's really nothing wrong at all about making Big T highly resistant to magic standard CharOp cheese. Maybe instead of relying on abusing the broken parts of the system, the players will go after the MacGuffin or something.

[Eldariel]

*shrug* A buffed Cleric creams it regardless. Or a buffed Druid. It's fine to make it something for the more martially minded casters to take out though; I sorta like the idea (just don't make escaping from it all that easy; just 'cause it's a martial brute doesn't mean it should be limited to melee only - shooting its spikes or something works just fine for a credible ranged weapon). Although Wizard of course has Gate...a Young Adult Prismatic Dragon should be able to dispatch the Tarrasque rather handily.

But yeah, no matter how one twists it, it's extremely unlikely that you can make it simultaneously killable for martial characters and impervious for casters. In fact, most likely you'll make it Do martial characters the hard way regardless, either making it unbeatable if you make it impervious to casters, or letting casters kill it. Making it an Elder Evil and having its sign disable magic could be interesting, of course, but then it'd mostly be just that, immune to PCs (MM monsters aren't meant to be "Deus Ex Machina or die"; in fact, there's no need for such monsters as they don't need stats...and you might as well call them deities).

[Zain]

You can make it have some sort of anti-magios field arould it, but make it so that any spells cast outside of non-aressive effects, (E.I magic fang) could come in, Call it a defence magic field or something

[Sstoopidtallkid]

The other part is that magic always works better than any other solution. Tripping is pathetically ineffective compared to magic, in virtually every situation. Melee never gets pulled out for anything. They're just their because some guy likes swords, and wants to use one.

So there's really nothing wrong at all about making Big T highly resistant to magic standard CharOp cheese. Maybe instead of relying on abusing the broken parts of the system, the players will go after the MacGuffin or something.You didn't answer my complaints at all. It's already highly resistant to level 20 melee, using anything short of blatant cheese. Making it immune to magic just means that now the only members of the party that can affect it will probably die in the process, while the others huddle in the corner(of their impervious pocket dimension). If you want something to be immortal except for the McGuffin, do so, but don't claim you're creating balance in the process. More than likely, instead of playing Zelda, someone will conjure a load of Anti-Osmium and walk away.

[Myrmex]

MM monsters aren't meant to be "Deus Ex Machina or die"; in fact, there's no need for such monsters as they don't need stats...and you might as well call them deities.

Fighting a vanilla ogre as a level 1 fighter is rough, but doing it at level 10 is a cakewalk.

I don't know why everything has to be "either casters win or don't bother." That's such a defeatist attitude.

Instead, just do it 3.0 style:

Magic Immunity
This creature is immune to all magic effects, including spell-like and supernatural abilities.

Then give it the ability to eat magical buffs (including wildshape).

There's nothing wrong with a melee monster that will kill a fighter that doesn't have his AC pimped out, or is only weak to ranged attacks from a bow.

Just because a monster isn't beat by what you consider the only good tactics doesn't make it a bad monster.


You didn't answer my complaints at all. It's already highly resistant to level 20 melee, using anything short of blatant cheese. Making it immune to magic just means that now the only members of the party that can affect it will probably die in the process, while the others huddle in the corner(of their impervious pocket dimension). If you want something to be immortal except for the McGuffin, do so, but don't claim you're creating balance in the process. More than likely, instead of playing Zelda, someone will conjure a load of Anti-Osmium and walk away.

Your complaint amounted to "it can't be beat by casters, this makes me sad". Some of us don't mind that it makes you sad, since the guy with stick hasn't been able to beat anything as well as the wizard since the internet.

Btw, a level 20 anything optimized towards AC can easily get his AC only hit on a natural 20 by the Tarrasque.

[tyckspoon]

Btw, a level 20 anything optimized towards AC can easily get his AC only hit on a natural 20 by the Tarrasque.

A level 20 'anything' can break AC 67? (Required to get better than 50% miss chance; lower than that and your efforts are better spent on actual miss chances.) Easily? Mind showing your work? Bonus points if they have a way to remain a credible threat to the Tarrasque after investing resources into that AC. The easy AC sources cap out in the mid 40s, IIRC; after that you're either trading something critical or you're playing one of the classes that has easy access to a non-traditional source of AC, which is not an 'anything'.

[Albonor]

I also would like to see that because my first draft would be:

+13 armor (full plate+5), +9 shield (+5 tower shield, doable since Mr.T only has 35 AC for its CR 20), +4 dex (mythril for the full plate and nimble enhancement), +5 NA (amulet or barbskin), +5 deflection (ring or Shield of faith) =46 so far. Tarrasque needs -9 to hit with the bite, -4 for everything else...

sure would could go with a sacred bonus with divine shield, which coupled with a charisma enhancing item or simple eagle's splendor can pull off another +8 or 9 if our subject is a "pally" with spirited charge ( one of the few smart melee option here), find a luck bonus somewhere, dodge maybe but its really pushing it. And even with a +5 magical beastbane lance, regeneration 40 is hard to go through. At least, no AoO for the beast on your charges....

Forget the tower shield on horseback on the other and so 44 to AC, + divine
shield+luck+dodge and you inflict 3d8+15(21? under-epic, can boni go over +5?)+2d6++3x str(be smart, enhance before the fight so let's say +6 for +18) + 3x whatever you could spend on PA for an average total of

13.5+15+7+18+3xPA = 53.5+3xPA. You will find yourself having a looooooong day taking hps from the Tarrasque 20 at a time....

At least, with a decent mount, you won't get hit. Very young gold dragon with flying feats is a very good choice here.

[Myrmex]

I did my math wrong; a fighter geared towards fighting big things and having a high AC can do this. A Confound the Big Folk build would work prettily handily against most opponents (combined with shrink person), as any melee type build would go. Against the tarrasque, specifically, I would expect level 20 characters to use a lot of resources to beat it, such as buying new items and visiting that level 10 telepath for a Psychic Reformation. I'm thinking strongheart halfling warblade 20. I think there's something in this build that would combine using giantbane and its free movement to deal damage or get bonuses. Otherwise, you're just going to stand their and take punishment while someone snipes the tarrasque.

+10 Base
+1 size
+1 dodge
+4 dex
+13 +5 mithral full plate of nimbleness
+9 +5 animated tower shield
+5 Natural Armor
+5 Ring of Protection
+5 Defending Armor Spikes
+5 +5 Defending Weapon
+5 Combat Expertise
+2 Greater Heavy Armor Optimization
+4 Underfoot Combat
+1 Ioun Stone
+2 (stance, strike, or counter from ToB)

Total: 72

I know I'm missing some stuff. There may be some magic items out there, and some optional stuff. I think with maneuvers to overcome DR, combined with benefits gained from free movement/gaining attacks of opportunity, you could deal some pretty ok damage, despite giving up basically +10 to your AC for with a defending weapon and fighting defensively. Maybe Channeling the Storm, which gives you +4 attack&damage for each AoO you pass up on.

[edit]
Alright, we want at least +26 to hit, in order to hit Big T 50% of the time:

-2 Tower Shield
-5 fighting defensively
+1 MW weapon
+5 Morale (potion, bard song, martial, whatever)
+20 BAB
+7 str (24 = 13 base, +5 tome, +6 item)
+1 size

For +27 total. Not much too power attack with. Using stone dragon maneuvers, DR won't be an issue, and you get solid bonus damage. If you use combat rhythm the round before, that's +5 damage, or +12 if you find someway to provoke attacks and pass up on them. Maybe just move through his space? He's fairly likely to miss.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

I did my math wrong; a fighter geared towards fighting big things and having a high AC can do this. A Confound the Big Folk build would work prettily handily against most opponents (combined with shrink person), as any melee type build would go. Against the tarrasque, specifically, I would expect level 20 characters to use a lot of resources to beat it, such as buying new items and visiting that level 10 telepath for a Psychic Reformation.That's part of the issue we're having with balancing. The Tarrasque is CR 20. It's supposed to be a daily fight for 20th level PCs. As in, yes, it's a world-eating menace that cannot be stopped without near-deific intervention, but they should still be able to take on 2 and walk away without lost party members or major resource expenditure, let alone 1.

[Myrmex]

That's part of the issue we're having with balancing. The Tarrasque is CR 20. It's supposed to be a daily fight for 20th level PCs. As in, yes, it's a world-eating menace that cannot be stopped without near-deific intervention, but they should still be able to take on 2 and walk away without lost party members or major resource expenditure, let alone 1.

Bah. I think it should go in the "boss" section of the MM, along with dragons, mind flayers, and beholders. Things that, when played to their strengths, can be down right brutal, despite their CR. Ie, if you don't let the party prepare, it will be murder.

[Talic]

Let's see. Full BAB class.
All armor/weapon are +1 with Greater Magic Vestment/Greater Magic Weapon cast (reasonable in a 4 man party buffing to face tarrasque)

Mithril Nimble Full Plate +5. (+13)
Dancing Tower Shield +5. (+9)
Armor Spikes +5 (defending). (+5)
Ring of Protection +5.

Still leaves a lot of WBL for playing with.

Now, that's a 42, base.

Improved Combat expertise for 18.

Now, that's a 60.

With other moderate optimization, you can build threat to be credible. With someone healing you (Big T needs a 20 to hit you, even if you need better than a 5-8 to hit him), you both last for some time, and with Stand Still, you can likely prevent him from going after others.

That's 3 feats, and about 10% of WBL, and some accuracy in attack. With decently good strength (18 base + 5 level + 5 inherent + 6 enhancement), you're swinging a +12 to hit there. If your two handed weapon is +5 (GMW), you've got a +19 AFTER the attack penalty for Combat expertise. Few situational modifiers / Feats, and you can have a moderate chance of injuring big T every round. Examples include Haste, which allows for accuracy as well as extra attacks.

[Waspinator]

If I gave the Tarrasque class levels, I'd chose Warlock. Flight and laser breathing!

[Eldariel]

For +27 total. Not much too power attack with. Using stone dragon maneuvers, DR won't be an issue, and you get solid bonus damage. If you use combat rhythm the round before, that's +5 damage, or +12 if you find someway to provoke attacks and pass up on them. Maybe just move through his space? He's fairly likely to miss.

Let's remember that you're also dealing with Regeneration 40 and DR 15/Epic so anything but huge single hits are like to be ineffective. Needing to land enough to get through 868 HP without Power Attack is...eww. Also, the above already relies on Defending stacking, picking a bunch of crappy feats and overall tanking your damage output.

Really, even if using strikes, I don't think it's possible to win if your attack bonus is lower than 33. All those extra percentages really add up, especially as you cannot use magical buffs (because you just gave it the ability to eat them). If trying to kill it with martial abilities, Barbarian/Frenzied Berserker/Warblade is frankly probably your best bet. The White Raven-charges that don't provoke AoOs should make it possible to 1-shot the Tarrasque before it can hit you. But I don't think every party should be forced to include a Charger capable of dealing ~1000 damage in 1 turn (because if you don't kill it immediately, it's gonna munch you and your negative AC) just to survive a poorly designed monster.


As far as bows go, Cleric Archers are still better than Fighter Archers at that. In fact, it takes a very specific Archer-build to even be able to damage the thing (Eternal Blade Archer could, but that's about it, and even that's only because EBlade can Nova). And if you can kill it with bows, how epic a fight is it if you never were in any danger to begin with?

[AgentPaper]

My vote? Turn the thing into a walking fortress, or at least set it up so that the players can do so. That would be so many kinds of win.

[JeminiZero]

Perhaps the Emerald Legion (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=101587) can give you some inspiration...

[Myrmex]

Let's remember that you're also dealing with Regeneration 40 and DR 15/Epic so anything but huge single hits are like to be ineffective. Needing to land enough to get through 868 HP without Power Attack is...eww. Also, the above already relies on Defending stacking, picking a bunch of crappy feats and overall tanking your damage output.

None of which would be permanent, and there are some pretty cool Confound the Big Folk builds I've seen.


Really, even if using strikes, I don't think it's possible to win if your attack bonus is lower than 33. All those extra percentages really add up, especially as you cannot use magical buffs (because you just gave it the ability to eat them). If trying to kill it with martial abilities, Barbarian/Frenzied Berserker/Warblade is frankly probably your best bet. The White Raven-charges that don't provoke AoOs should make it possible to 1-shot the Tarrasque before it can hit you. But I don't think every party should be forced to include a Charger capable of dealing ~1000 damage in 1 turn (because if you don't kill it immediately, it's gonna munch you and your negative AC) just to survive a poorly designed monster.

Normally when I play in a campaign, there are 3 to 5 other people, so I was just coming up with a build that doesn't get hit by the Tarrasque, but still has a decent chance to pose a credible threat. You can drop several of those feats and still only be getting hit 15% of the time (easy to recover with low level cure spells being fired at you).

With a spot of only +17, the party rogue can easily cut the thing open as the halfling warblade rolls around and distracts it.


As far as bows go, Cleric Archers are still better than Fighter Archers at that. In fact, it takes a very specific Archer-build to even be able to damage the thing (Eternal Blade Archer could, but that's about it, and even that's only because EBlade can Nova). And if you can kill it with bows, how epic a fight is it if you never were in any danger to begin with?

The idea is that you've got to hold the thing still (guy in plate) while other people shoot it from range. The casters could still be useful by altering the terrain to make the battleground more favorable, so the Tarrasque has difficulty moving in certain directions.

I don't know why you're so caught up on a single build that can one shot the Tarrasque. So long as the party collectively does 40+ damage a round, the thing will go down.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

With a spot of only +17, the party rogue can easily cut the thing open as the halfling warblade rolls around and distracts it.Actually, he can't. Read the SA description.
The idea is that you've got to hold the thing still (guy in plate) while other people shoot it from range. The casters could still be useful by altering the terrain to make the battleground more favorable, so the Tarrasque has difficulty moving in certain directions.Except that if you have defenses where the Tarrasque needs a natural 20 to hit, he can go after someone else. The only Lockdown method that could work IMHO is Stand Still.
I don't know why you're so caught up on a single build that can one shot the Tarrasque. So long as the party collectively does 40+ damage a round, the thing will go down.But not before it kills a party member. Or 3. And I would like to point out the utter annoyance of the video-game boss who can't do anything to you, but still takes 20 minutes to put down.

Also, defending can't be applied to Armor Spikes, by RAW. :smallwink:

[Talic]

Care to point out where it lists Armor Spikes as ineligible for Defending? They are listed as a melee weapon, and one enchanted seperately from Armor.

Further, for the fight to last 20 minutes, the entire party would have to be averaging 44 damage per round.

If, however, the party is doing 80 damage per round total? 20 rounds, not 20 minutes.

If you have a character able to have a 5% chance of being hit by the tarrasque, as well as stand still? That's being hit maybe 2-4 times during the entire fight. With an alert and astute healer, that's easy enough to bypass. Even if not, it's quite possible for the Armored warrior to benefit from Improved Blink, and cut that number in half.

Simple improved invisibility will aid the non-armored fighters in avoiding Big T's wrath.

Once it drops, 1-2 people doing Coup de graces every round should hold it down until the wish is brought out.

[Myrmex]

A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment or striking the limbs of a creature whose vitals are beyond reach.

Well crap.
Incidentally, would that mean a halfling couldn't RAW hamstring a dragon?

A sniper from 30 feet away (60 feet with the assassin spell) could land pretty solid damage without the Tarrasque being much wiser. Something with mosquito bite, spring attack, and a good hide check could also do it.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Care to point out where it lists Armor Spikes as ineligible for Defending? They are listed as a melee weapon, and one enchanted seperately from Armor.It was meant more at the builds that stack multiple defending weapons to boost AC. That sort of idiocy is the only one I get annoyed enough at to point out that it specifically says 'transfers the sword's enhancement bonus to AC'. Since Defending shouldn't stack in the first place(and should probably require you to either attack with the weapon or take the total defense option), using that bit of poor editing to eliminate exploits seems fine IMHO.
Further, for the fight to last 20 minutes, the entire party would have to be averaging 44 damage per round.

If, however, the party is doing 80 damage per round total? 20 rounds, not 20 minutes.I wasn't talking about the specific amount of time, I was saying that if you have to spend more than 5 rounds in combat doing the same thing over and over again(in a system where 4-round combats cantake an hour), it's going to get boring fast.
If you have a character able to have a 5% chance of being hit by the tarrasque, as well as stand still? That's being hit maybe 2-4 times during the entire fight. With an alert and astute healer, that's easy enough to bypass. Even if not, it's quite possible for the Armored warrior to benefit from Improved Blink, and cut that number in half.I'll give you that, though over the course of 20 rounds, I wouldn't be surprised to see 3 auto-hits in one round, or see the healer not wasting a Heal on the guy after only one hit, then him getting hit with 2 attacks at once.
Simple improved invisibility will aid the non-armored fighters in avoiding Big T's wrath.Scent.
Once it drops, 1-2 people doing Coup de graces every round should hold it down until the wish is brought out.That's not the issue. Getting the Miracle/Wish is just saying 'which caster goes in Init before it's turn(and healing)'? The issue is getting to that point.

[Myrmex]

Isn't there an alchemical item from Complete Scoundrel that negates scent?

[Talic]

It was meant more at the builds that stack multiple defending weapons to boost AC. That sort of idiocy is the only one I get annoyed enough at to point out that it specifically says 'transfers the sword's enhancement bonus to AC'. Since Defending shouldn't stack in the first place(and should probably require you to either attack with the weapon or take the total defense option), using that bit of poor editing to eliminate exploits seems fine IMHO. I don't see any build stacking Defender here. Typically, I use Guisarme / Armor Spikes. The armor spikes still provide a tangible benefit (threaten at 5 feet), so still potentially have the power for their no enhancement to attack to apply. No, the real fun is when you have a Heavy shield +5 (for defense) that is also enchanted as a weapon, at +5, with defending. +12 AC from your freakin shield.

I wasn't talking about the specific amount of time, I was saying that if you have to spend more than 5 rounds in combat doing the same thing over and over again(in a system where 4-round combats cantake an hour), it's going to get boring fast.I'd not imagine so. Typically, a monster like tarrasque will attack the thing nearest... After a couple rounds, it may try to go for whatever's hurting it most, only to be stopped by the one in front. It might then try to hit, then resort to raging full power attack swings / bull rush / etc. Each would need to be dealt with differently.

I'll give you that, though over the course of 20 rounds, I wouldn't be surprised to see 3 auto-hits in one round, or see the healer not wasting a Heal on the guy after only one hit, then him getting hit with 2 attacks at once. Bad play decisions for the healing, and 3 hits? I'd be surprised. Two, not so much.

Odds: at least 1 hit in 5 attacks: 22.6%
Odds: at least 2 hits: 1.2%

Both still in the 1 in 100 so range, so not too surprising. 3 and 4? Highly improbable. Odds for all five? 1 in 3,200,000.


Scent.Not possible to pinpoint invisible creature with reach or ranged attacks (which everyone should be using).
Tarrasque also has animal intelligence, and the visible eaty thing in front is more likely to be a target.

That's not the issue. Getting the Miracle/Wish is just saying 'which caster goes in Init before it's turn(and healing)'? The issue is getting to that point. And if that's not the case, the CDG will keep it down long enough for the caster's init to come up.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

1) Add Phrenic Template: gains SR 58, some energy attacks and some defences.
2) Add Star-Spawn feat (LoM) : gains a fly speed.
3) Add elite stats. Because that costs nothing and increases everything by a bit.
4) Add Damage Reduction epic Feat as many times as you can and Thick Skin feat 5 times. That gives it DR 40/-

[Talic]

1) Add Phrenic Template: gains SR 58, some energy attacks and some defences.
2) Add Star-Spawn feat (LoM) : gains a fly speed.
3) Add elite stats. Because that costs nothing and increases everything by a bit.
4) Add Damage Reduction epic Feat as many times as you can and Thick Skin feat 5 times. That gives it DR 40/-

Only if you want to turn it into a creature that requires either an Ubercharger or a caster to take down.

Better to make it Immune to all energy damage.

[Khanderas]

Ranged targetted dispel magic, range = unlimited, at will.
Plus stunning roar for those naturally flying races.
(Unlimited untouchability due to flight needs to go as step one.)


'Tis time to FACE the tarrasque not go pew pew from the skies until Mr T drops.

Im one of the guys who wants atleast one monster in the world that cannot be killed virtually without risk by a group of level 10 adventurers.

[Eldariel]

Im one of the guys who wants atleast one monster in the world that cannot be killed virtually without risk by a group of level 10 adventurers.

Don't you already have a billion in all the Dragons?

[Swordguy]

Don't you already have a billion in all the Dragons?

No, because of the idiot who greenlighted Shivering Touch, and jackass Wizards everywhere who both maximize it and can use it as a ranged spell.

[Glimbur]

-Equalizing presence (ex): Spells may not be cast within 150' feet of the Tarrasque. This includes using scrolls and using command-activated magical items. Persistent spells cast outside this radius (or magical items that mimic said spells) fail to function within this radius if the caster level of the spell is equal to or less than the Tarrasque's hit dice.

The Tarrasque has 48 hit dice. This means every magic item and every buff will fail to work. The only thing I find scarier than facing the Tarrasque in melee is facing the Tarrasque in melee with mundane armor, weapons, and no stat boosters.

[Eldariel]

No, because of the idiot who greenlighted Shivering Touch, and jackass Wizards everywhere who both maximize it and can use it as a ranged spell.

All adult Dragons know Scintillating Scales. Problem solved!

[VirOath]

People seem to be forgetting something about Rocks and Flight. Rocks have a range increment of 10 feet, and after 10 increments it's an auto-miss. Heck the tenth is a -20 to hit anyways, unless you are stating that it's not moving at all, which is dumb. Dumber than it's int stat really. And since things normally only fall 100ft per round in D&D, that makes sense.

So 500 ft aura of anti-flight works well.

[Eldariel]

People seem to be forgetting something about Rocks and Flight. Rocks have a range increment of 10 feet, and after 10 increments it's an auto-miss. Heck the tenth is a -20 to hit anyways, unless you are stating that it's not moving at all, which is dumb. Dumber than it's int stat really. And since things normally only fall 100ft per round in D&D, that makes sense.

So 500 ft aura of anti-flight works well.

Actually, thrown weapons have a maximum range of 5 increments; since it has like 30' of natural reach, thrown rocks aren't like to even get out of its melee range if jumping. You could reach 100' with Far Shot. Detach at least doubles that and deals real damage. Meh.

[Myrmex]

Re: Dragons & Shivering Touch
The problem with scintillating scales is that it's not an all day buff. A caster could potentially get a surprise round on a fairly old dragon, and wipe it out with assay spell resistance and a reached, maximized shivering touch. Ghostform is only a level 5 spell, after all.

Re: Rocks
Hulking Hurler!

[Draz74]

As far as people brainstorming non-Ubercharger melee builds that might be able to take on Big T reasonably, there are a couple of very important tricks that are being forgotten. In fact, I dare say a carefully-built, non-cheesy Warblade 20 should be able to solo Big T safely (albeit slowly).

Elusive Target.
Trollbane.

(Strike of Perfect Clarity + trollbane) x9 won't technically kill the Tarrasque, but it will keep him from ever waking up again. I'm pretty sure a clever Warblade using hit-and-run tactics (and Elusive Target) can survive Big T's attacks long enough to deliver that, especially if he's clever about mixing in other useful maneuvers, such as White Raven Hammer and Greater Insightful Strike.

So yeah. Also, why do archers have a hard time contributing to an anti-Big T gang-bang? All they needs is Force enhancements on their bows, which they should have anyway. Voila, no DR.

There are plenty of other ways to bypass the Tarrasque's DR, too. Transmuting weapons. Shadow Striking weapons. +4 Magical Beast-Bane weapons. Admittedly that last option is something not every party will be carrying around.

[Eldariel]

Re: Dragons & Shivering Touch
The problem with scintillating scales is that it's not an all day buff. A caster could potentially get a surprise round on a fairly old dragon, and wipe it out with assay spell resistance and a reached, maximized shivering touch. Ghostform is only a level 5 spell, after all.

Re: Rocks
Hulking Hurler!

*shrug* Potentially. If they don't, they're probably dead. And this is unlike to happen in Dragon's lair for obvious reasons, and equally unlikely that they'd happen upon a hunting dragon given how fast they move. Of course, the dragon might also have contingencies or contingent effects or items that protect them from Shivering Touch.

If the fight starts, chances are the Dragon will cast Scintillating Scales at a point or another. An old Dragon can afford to Persist it too. And if they have Awaken Spell Resistance, it'll be high enough to be relevant even with Assay Spell Resistance in the mix (assuming the caster hasn't taken other measures to penetrate it, which many haven't; and of course, the Dragon could have additional means to pump its spell resistance).

Also, Ghostform is a level 8 spell according to Spell Compendium.


Not saying it's impossible, but I'm fairly sure the percentage of population in the world both capable and willing to go through all the risks is small enough for all this not to make a serious dent into the world's population.

[Khanderas]

Originally Posted by Swordguy
No, because of the idiot who greenlighted Shivering Touch, and jackass Wizards everywhere who both maximize it and can use it as a ranged spell.
All adult Dragons know Scintillating Scales. Problem solved!
No.
Shivering Touch does not exist, not can it be resarched.
NOW the problem is solved.:smallamused:




Originally Posted by Khanderas
Im one of the guys who wants atleast one monster in the world that cannot be killed virtually without risk by a group of level 10 adventurers.

Don't you already have a billion in all the Dragons?
Not sure what you mean. Perhaps that there are many readers of the Dragon magazine who also thinks that shivering touch (just one of the examples) is beyond unbalanced ?

[Talic]

Actually, thrown weapons have a maximum range of 5 increments; since it has like 30' of natural reach, thrown rocks aren't like to even get out of its melee range if jumping. You could reach 100' with Far Shot. Detach at least doubles that and deals real damage. Meh.

Actually, Heroes of Battle has rules for Dive bombing, and the range increment for such an attack is 50 feet. If you are in the form of an Air elemental, 300 feet above the tarrasque, and you do a 200' down, releasing the rock at the bottom of the dive, it is 2 increments out (100 feet), but counts as being dropped from 300'.

[quick_comment]

1) Replace the useless feats. Toughness x6? Please.

Give it martial study and martial stance feats. Nothing would be more terrifying than:

DM: The tarrasque roars and uses this rush ability. It is now next to you.
Player: Well, it misses, so thats not so bad.
DM: You realize that you cannot cast defensively within its reach. It has mageslayer.

Oh, it also uses a swift action to assume the Thicket of Blades stance.


This assumes that the fight takes place somewhere that flight isnt an option.

[Chronos]

On Shivering Touch, do note that, even by the incredibly broken RAW for that spell, white and silver dragons are still completely immune to it.

[VirOath]

A few more points, and points towards the Big T being truly frightening in a DM that actually knows how to use him. The point is, the only viable option against him, EVEN STOCK, is to run, unless you have massive levels on his CR.

Point 1: The truth behind the whole thing. Humanoid Intelligence. Yeah, he might not be writing novels anytime soon, but Int 2 can work things out, as animals are capable of deductive reasoning through trial and error. Int 3 makes him able to assess the situation and choose the most beneficial option to him. Seriously people, there are DM's that run even DRAGONS as "I sit here and Breath on you" monsters.

Point 2: Height. Yeap, a Big T standing on it's hind legs is 70ft tall. Add 30ft reach, and you got 100ft above him. Flying isn't a viable option due to range.

Point 3: Burrow Speed. First off, it doesn't normally leave a tunnel behind him as others have mentioned. The tunnels collapse behind him because they aren't stable and because the dirt has to have somewhere to go. This pretty much gives him the ability to run at any point as well. Now to make this dangerous. Since you will likely not make him stock and swap his feats, give him spring attack. Simply put, come up from below someone, able to reach upto 100ft straight up as mentioned before, grapple attempt, swallow hole, and finish moving back underground. You got Jaws. A giant fricken landshark.

Point 4: Even if they are looking for the Big T, it's hard to track. You can easily tell where it's been, but it is never going to any one place nor can you track it once it goes underground, normally. And Big T will likely know the party is coming before they know the Big T is. Remember, play it smart.

Point 5: They might not even be expecting the Big T.

It's not supposed to be a Tank and Spank fight. Heck, almost no fights are supposed to be Tank and Spank. Once you start running monsters as idiots, simple tactics beat them. But once you start using tactics that involve their strengths, as even a Int 2 creature will do (Wolves flanking, attacking from the high ground even), you will realize that mobs won't allow themselves to be tanked and spanked.

Dragons are supposed to inspire awe and fear into the party, using the terrain and their abilities to make them almost invincible and untouchable, unless you fight it on it's terms. And we all know how that works. They are supposed to be used to destroy kingdoms and send PCs running in terror. Big T is the Dragon-kiddies big brother, for when PC's get a fat head.

[Deth Muncher]

A giant fricken landshark.



This just made me think: Why run the Tarrasque as a single-monster encounter? You could do Mr. T with a troop of Bulettes (the "real" landshark) that appear with him. Have the PCs have fun dealing with multiple enemies plus the Tarrasque at once.

[VirOath]

This just made me think: Why run the Tarrasque as a single-monster encounter? You could do Mr. T with a troop of Bulettes (the "real" landshark) that appear with him. Have the PCs have fun dealing with multiple enemies plus the Tarrasque at once.

The Big T with Leadership, I like it! XD