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View Full Version : (3.5) Statting up Kavus and Slivers for D&D



maniakmastah
2009-05-08, 11:18 PM
Hey ya'll, now for anyone whose ever played Magic the Gathering, you may have heard about Kavus and Slivers. If not, Slivers are an insectoid race centered around a hive mentality, and depending on the breed, has certain special abilities. What makes the Slivers so dangerous is that when two different breeds are together, they can share and use each others special abilities. Example, a Sliver with lengthened talons for reach comes into contact with a Sliver that spits acid, when on the battlefield, BOTH gain the acid spit and lengthened talons.

Kavus are a reptilian breed of creature created to protect their environment, both by means of creation and destruction, and draw many of their abilities from their environment, as well as their ability to evolved into deadlier, more specialized forms should the situation call for such an ability.

This got me to thinking, how would you come up with good ideas for stattings up and running both these creature types.

RTGoodman
2009-05-09, 12:31 AM
There've been a ridiculous amount of attempts around the internet to bring Slivers to D&D, but I don't believe there's ever really been a version that was that great. They're just too... weird to be statted, I guess.

As far as Kavus, I don't know if it's been done, but they'd be a lot easier. If you don't get much response here (I'm too out of the M:tG loop to stat up any iconic creatures, and don't really know much about Kavus other than some flavor text and a few of the more common cards), you could probably try the Request a Homebrew thread or maybe even try over on the Wizards boards.

Kyouhen
2009-05-09, 01:12 AM
Personally if I was going to do Slivers (and I was...) I would start with some of the basic abilities of.... shoot, can't remember what they were called. They were robot bugs with chainsaws mounted on their faces. Excelled at breaking things and the biggest of them could cast disintegrate at will. I'm sure someone else here knows what they were. Mix them with another set of creatures I forgot. They had organic weapons and could spawn them when they wanted. The biggest one was called the Slaughterking.

To fully emulate the Sliver power, aside from giving them a hivemind ability like the first creature I listed, set them up in a way similar to familiars where having a Sliver within x feet of another Sliver would grant it's ability to that one. Just make sure to keep the base abilities simple. Also do a cookie-cutter scheme. 10's in each stat. Muscle Sliver grants +1 Str and +1 Con. Plated Sliver's another +1 Con. Talon Sliver increases reach by 5 feet. And so on and so forth.

AgentPaper
2009-05-09, 01:26 AM
I'd do something like make a normal sliver, CR 5 or so. Then, design abilities that increase that CR by 1. For example plated slivers add DR (5+HD)/magic, or /epic if it has more than 10 HD, or /- if it has more than 20 HD. An extra-large sliver increases size category by 1.

Hmm, I think this could actually work out pretty darned well in 4E. I'm gunna have to look at statting them out.

maniakmastah
2009-05-09, 02:04 AM
Personally if I was going to do Slivers (and I was...) I would start with some of the basic abilities of.... shoot, can't remember what they were called. They were robot bugs with chainsaws mounted on their faces. Excelled at breaking things and the biggest of them could cast disintegrate at will. I'm sure someone else here knows what they were. Mix them with another set of creatures I forgot. They had organic weapons and could spawn them when they wanted. The biggest one was called the Slaughterking.

To fully emulate the Sliver power, aside from giving them a hivemind ability like the first creature I listed, set them up in a way similar to familiars where having a Sliver within x feet of another Sliver would grant it's ability to that one. Just make sure to keep the base abilities simple. Also do a cookie-cutter scheme. 10's in each stat. Muscle Sliver grants +1 Str and +1 Con. Plated Sliver's another +1 Con. Talon Sliver increases reach by 5 feet. And so on and so forth.

Oh, you mean the Kythons from BoVD. Good idea, but they seem better suited to making Xenomorphs (the Aliens from the Aliens movies), but they could work as an idea towards Kavus.

Coidzor
2009-05-09, 05:25 AM
Hmm, CR calculation and keeping their numbers balanced might be a bit tricky. or maybe I'm just confuddled by the idea and/or CR and/or the hour...

Probably needs to go over into the homebrew section... but aren't they fairly weak as individuals, right? so more around a CR 1-3, 3-5 for the basic(s)?

The range of their hivemind versus the range of their ability-sharing is an interesting thing, but probably can be handwaved as basically, if they're within the same engagement/encounter, they're sharing powers. As that would both keep the strategy of destroying the most dangerous sliver type first viable and make it so that trying to lure off a few slivers away from the main group to ambush less valuable unless they got the only one of a type or sommat. And if powers were shared within a colony, then basically one could encounter basic slivers with all the abilities of the baddies without getting a chance to take out the baddies and so make the peons wimps again.

Fishy
2009-05-09, 10:20 AM
Slivers are just Cranium Rats, right?

Deth Muncher
2009-05-09, 11:45 AM
Oh, you mean the Kythons from BoVD. Good idea, but they seem better suited to making Xenomorphs (the Aliens from the Aliens movies), but they could work as an idea towards Kavus.

Nonono, Kythons aren't Slivers, they're Tyranids (from Warhammer 40k). The difference with Slivers and 'Nids is that while Slivers rely on other Slivers for their different abilities, 'Nids just grow their own weapons, which is exactly what Kythons do.

Baron Corm
2009-05-09, 01:35 PM
Did this a while ago. Haven't perfected it so I never posted it, but if you need something to work with here it is. The Conjuration and Enchantment ones look especially dumb.

Hit dice and CR of an individual sliver are equal to the number of slivers in the hivemind. “All slivers” or similar refers to all slivers within that sliver’s hivemind.

Abilities:

Abjuration - All slivers gain a +1 deflection bonus to AC per abjuration sliver. Higher numbers of abjuration slivers can also grant resistances and immunities to things.

Conjuration - All slivers gain the ability to summon a demon as a full-round action. Each sliver can only have one demon summoned at a time. More conjuration slivers improve the type of demon.

Divination - Once per encounter per Charisma modifier, all slivers can gain a +1 bonus per divination sliver on any d20 roll.

Enchantment - All slivers deal 1d6 damage per enchantment sliver when damaged. This is a mind-affecting effect.

Evocation - All slivers gain a ranged touch energy attack which deals 1d6 fire damage per evocation sliver. More evocation slivers could allow different energy types. This includes positive and negative energy, and force damage.

Illusion - Every illusion sliver appears to be two slivers of any school, with an appropriate seeming increase in power for all slivers. Both deal normal sliver damage and have normal sliver stats, but they share a single sliver’s hp and are for all purposes considered a single sliver. For each illusion sliver, a single sliver can appear to be any different type, with an appropriate seeming increase/decrease in power for all slivers.

Necromancy - Any time a sliver dies, it is raised as an undead (which remains a sliver). More necromancy slivers improve the risen form.

Transmutation - All slivers gain +1 to all ability scores per transmutation sliver as they transform into physically and mentally superior beings. Higher numbers of transmutation slivers can grant other bonuses to all slivers, such as increasing or decreasing size categories, bonuses to natural armor, or natural attacks.

Universal – Counts as two slivers for the purposes of HD.

Unique slivers (HD increases are instead of normal increase):

Abjuration – all slivers have improved evasion and improved mettle; +5 HD

Conjuration – all slivers gain the ability to use greater teleport as a move action; +5 HD

Evocation – evocation thing becomes an area effect; +5 HD

Divination – all slivers can take 10 on d20 rolls; +5 HD

Illusion – doubles the total seeming number of slivers and gives attacks against all slivers a 50% miss chance; +10 HD

Necromancy – a sliver that dies heals all slivers for damage equal to its HD times its Charisma modifier; +10 HD

Transmutation – when a sliver is hit by an attack, it gains immunity to that type of attack until it is hit with a different type of attack; +10 HD

Enchantment – below thing deals negative levels equal to HD - Will save to creatures who resist it; +15 HD

Enchantment - causes creatures who gaze upon slivers to be stunned (Will save negates; DC 10 + 1 per round), functions each round; +15 HD

Universal – all slivers gain immunity to magic; magic items function against them as if they were in an antimagic field; +20 HD

Sliver stats:

Size/Type: Medium Outsider (Chaotic, Evil)
Hit Dice: 1d8+1 (5 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 30 feet
Armor Class: 11, touch 11, flat-footed 10 (+1 Dexterity)
Base Attack/Grapple: +1/+1
Attack: Bite +2 (1d6+1)
Full Attack: Bite +2 (1d6+1)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: None
Special Qualities: Mindless, hivemind
Saves: Fort +3, Ref +3, Will +3
Abilities: Str 13, Con 13, Dex 13, Int -, Wis 12, Cha 12
Skills: None
Feats: None
Environment: The Abyss
Organization: Any
Challenge Rating: 1
Treasure: None
Alignment: Chaotic Evil
Advancement: By sliver
Level Adjustment: -

Hivemind (Ex)

If one sliver within a particular hivemind is not flatfooted or flanked, none are. Slivers in the same hivemind can speak to each other telepathically.

Flickerdart
2009-05-09, 02:52 PM
Personally if I was going to do Slivers (and I was...) I would start with some of the basic abilities of.... shoot, can't remember what they were called. They were robot bugs with chainsaws mounted on their faces. Excelled at breaking things and the biggest of them could cast disintegrate at will.
Clockwork Horrors. The Adamantium Horror was the big guy.

Quietus
2009-05-09, 04:19 PM
I'd say your best bet would be in creating a base Sliver, probably something around CR 1 or 3, and then having other slivers provide buffs as though they were spells. For example :

Metallic Sliver : Your base Sliver
Muscle Sliver : All Slivers gain the benefit of Bull's Strength
Talon Sliver : All Slivers get 5' reach
Wing Sliver : All Slivers gain the benefit of the Fly spell
Clot Sliver : All Slivers can gain Regeneration (Duration = con mod +3 rounds) 1/day.
Heart Sliver : Any group with a Heart Sliver in it gets to act in the Surprise round
Horned Sliver : All Slivers get a Trample attack at 1d8+str*1.5 damage.
Armor sliver : All Slivers gain DR 5/Magic
Mnemonic Sliver : Not sure how to handle this.
Barbed Sliver : All Slivers can spend an action 1/day to gain barbs; They gain 1d4 barbs, and each time the Sliver strikes in melee combat, the target makes a DC 16 Reflex save or one gets stuck in them, causing a -1 penalty on attacks, saves, and checks per quill. Removing a quill deals 1d6 damage, unless a DC 20 Heal check is made.
Mindwhip Sliver : Any Sliver can sacrifice itself to cause a spellcaster to lose one prepared spell/spell slot (Level and spell are random)
Crystalline Sliver : All Slivers gain SR 10+1 per every Sliver present
Hibernation Sliver : Not sure how to handle this.
Acidic Sliver : All Slivers gain a death burst ability, dealing 1d6 acid damage per HD when killed, reflex half DC 10+1/2 HD+Con
Spined Sliver : All Slivers gain the benefit of the Bull's Strength spell. If there is a Muscle Sliver around, all Slivers gain Animal Growth rather than Bull's Strength.
Victual Sliver : Any Sliver can sacrifice itself to heal all other Slivers present by 5 HP
Sliver Queen : Unique Sliver, has much higher stats than your standard, and can summon a new Sliver every round for free, or can sacrifice 5 HP to create new Slivers as a free action. Prefers summoning to being in combat.
Quick Sliver : Double all Sliver's speeds (both land and flying)
Plated Sliver : All Slivers gain the benefit of Bear's Endurance
Mistform Sliver : Slivers are immune to any effect that targets creature type (except for gaining Sliver abilities)
Crypt Sliver : Any Sliver can give another Sliver regeneration (Duration = casting Sliver's con mod + 3 rounds) 1/day
Hunter Sliver : All Slivers gain the Track feat and Scent ability
Root Sliver : No idea how to handle this.
Ward Sliver : All Slivers gain the benefits of a continous Resist Energy spell, caster level = slivers present. Each individual Ward Sliver has its own specific energy type.
Shifting Sliver : Slivers can penetrate all forms of DR except for /-.
Spectral Sliver : All Slivers can gain +2 strength/+2 con (duration = 3 + new con mod rounds) 1/day
Blade Sliver : Increase the damage dealt by all Sliver's attacks by one die size
Brood Sliver : Any time a Sliver is dealt 10 points of damage, a baby Sliver bursts from it (treat as a basic Sliver)
Essence Sliver : Any time a Sliver does damage, it gains temporary HP equal to half the damage it deals
Synapse Sliver : Whenever a Sliver deals damage, it regains one use of an ability it has limited uses of per day
Magma Sliver : Any Sliver can spend an action to increase another Sliver's damage die one step (this can be cumulative)
Toxin Sliver : All Slivers gain the Poison ability (Initial/secondary 1d4 con/1d4 con, DC 10+1/2 HD+con mod)
Sliver Overlord : Same stats as Sliver Queen, can summon any Sliver within a one mile radius instantly, can Dominate any Slivers not currently part of its own Hive (Save 10+1/2 HD+Cha mod)



So I need to figure out Mnemonic, Hibernation and Root. In general, I'd say that almost every Sliver will give +1 CR to every other Sliver present, which is a baseline and can change. The Toxin Sliver, in particular, is certainly worth a +2 in any decent-sized swarm. For reference, here are their abilities in M:tG terms. All abilities are gained by all Slivers present.

Mnemonic Sliver : Pay 2 mana; Sacrifice a sliver, draw a card
Hibernation : Pay 2 life; Return this creature to your hand
Root : Root Sliver can't be countered. No Sliver spells can be countered.

The problem, of course, is that each of these abilities are artifacts of the M:tG system. There is no overlord-like Planeswalker playing these Slivers, who can take them back into some store of knowledge by sacrificing his own life force. Likewise, players have no way to counterspell monsters appearing before them. Perhaps the solution is to simply ignore these breeds, it's not as though the list of available Slivers is short by any means without them.

Rather than strictly following the rules, I think that it might be better to give the Root sliver the "Bear's Endurance" ability, and make the Plated Sliver give better Natural Armor. It's not a strict following, but it DOES make sense given the mental image of a sliver with thick armor plating to .. you know, improve armor. That possibility in mind, the Mnemonic Sliver could give an addition use/day to all abilities that are limited in that way... and I still have no idea how a Hibernation Sliver could possibly be helpful.


Try this on for a stat block, perhaps?

Slivers (basic)
Medium Aberration
HD : 3d8+4 (18 HP)
Init : +2
Speed : 30 feet
AC : 15 (+2 dex, +3 natural)
Base Attack/Grapple : +2/+4
Attack : Claw +4 melee (1d6+3)
Space/Reach : 5 feet/5 feet
Special Qualities : Sliver traits, Hivemind.
Saves : Fort +3, Reflex +3, Will +4
Abilities : Str 14, Dex 15, Con 12, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 3
Skills/Feats : Not really concerned about this right now, honestly


Sliver Traits : Any special attacks or qualities that a Sliver has, it automatically gives to all other nearby Slivers.


Looking over this stat block, it seems to be around a CR 2 challenge, if that. It's almost identical to a Bugbear, with slightly more HP, slightly less AC, similar damage (1d6+3 for Slivers, versus 1d8+2 for Bugbears), and one point less attack bonus. Of course, I haven't given Slivers any feats yet, so this could easily make up for that difference.

Flickerdart
2009-05-09, 04:35 PM
Root Sliver could give protection from Dismissal and similar effects, or grant Death Ward or some other So_ immunity.
Hibernation could grant an ability that lets a Sliver take CON damage in order to get Sanctuary-like effects.

Quietus
2009-05-09, 04:39 PM
Root Sliver could give protection from Dismissal and similar effects, or grant Death Ward or some other So_ immunity.
Hibernation could grant an ability that lets a Sliver take CON damage in order to get Sanctuary-like effects.

Hmm... I like the Sanctuary-effect thing for Hibernal. Though I'd probably make it a 1/day ability, to keep in theme with other slivers. As for the Root, I think that it is better to go with the spirit of the slivers rather than strict card ruling, giving Root slivers the Bear's Endurance, and making Plated Slivers provide +3 Natural Armor.

Sorry for the confusion, I've been editing my post as I went, refining what I'd just kinda crapped out of my head.

AgentPaper
2009-05-09, 05:08 PM
Sliver queen's free action slivers need to cost more than 5 HP. 10 should do. Otherwise if you have a queen and a victual, you can pump out a bunch of slivers, sacrifice them all to heal the queen for what's lost, and keep doing so until all of the slivers in range are fully healed, every single round.

Haven
2009-05-09, 05:24 PM
Sliver queen's free action slivers need to cost more than 5 HP. 10 should do. Otherwise if you have a queen and a victual, you can pump out a bunch of slivers, sacrifice them all to heal the queen for what's lost, and keep doing so until all of the slivers in range are fully healed, every single round.

Hee...that is so very appropriate for slivers, though.

AslanCross
2009-05-09, 05:24 PM
Slivers are just Cranium Rats, right?

Cranium rats only gain Int, though. Slivers gain a lot more by being together, but yeah, I think the buff spell effects are a good way of modeling them.

OP, you have to decide whether this ability is an (Ex), (Su) or (Sp) though, and how CR works with these guys. It's kind of difficult.

Flickerdart
2009-05-09, 05:29 PM
The Hive Mind itself is (Ex) but the effects that mimic spell-likes should probably be (Su).

SilverClawShift
2009-05-09, 05:56 PM
Me and my DM have tried to make Slivers for 3.5 a few times. We've never come up with anything especially satisying though. You run into huge CR problems introducing them in any large number, and most of their effects don't really mean a lot to your average player (The slivers all have +4 strength? That means I die in 5 hits instead of 7, right?)

To really build the SPIRIT of slivers in D&D, you would have to ignore the more obvious and basic functionality. Don't give the slivers a boost to their stats, a new sliver ability should alter the battlefield and create a tactical obstacle.
Slivers gaining a + to Dex and AC means the fight lasts longer, not that anything really unique has occured. If you're going to do that, you might as well send goblins against them, and have a shaman cast a group buff spell.

To really make an interesting encounter, you'd need to be more blunt with the Slivers themselves, and more flashy with the effects.
A flying sliver should have elaborate decorative wings, while the slivers who gain flying as a result should have dull leathery flaps. A Sliver that causes other slivers to be fireproof should have a crown wreathed in flame and glowing red eyes, while the others receive no visual benefit.
Slivers should do things like increase movement speed, or grant line of sight acid-spitting attacks, or allow them to create barriers in the battlefield with their own bodies.
Things like that will make a fight interesting and multi-layered. When a barbarian has to charge a fireproof sliver to cut its head off before the pyromancer wizard can do much, or when the archers are busy plugging the flying sliver to ground the entire group, or when the cave transforms into a living maze of barbed shields because the one on the roof has an armored back, THEN you get a memorable encounter.

I hope I don't sound condescending, I'm just meaning to be helpful. Our biggest problem in creating slivers for D&D has been getting wrapped up in stat and logic geekery, when we should have been concerned with how to bring a unique monster to the table.

Quietus
2009-05-09, 06:06 PM
SilverClawShift; You do have a good point. From a perfectly mechanical, exact-translation point of view, I think what I presented is decent, and does carry a few things that are somewhat interesting, but a lot of it is taking something with the stats of a bugbear, and turning it into a troll when there's enough others nearby. Which might be appropriate for some games, but for others, your approach (which is more spirit-of-slivers than text-of-slivers) would work well. And honestly, I like it.

Even better, however, might be a mix. Picking and choosing some sliver-text abilities (we really don't need ALL of those abilities, honestly), and mixing in a few that allow shaping of the battlefield, means that not only do you get the memorable cave-turned-barbed-maze, but you also get the situation where the party attempts to engage a small, weak foe, and ends up fighting a much more fearsome group. Unfortunately for them, the way I outlined things above would essentially mean an exponential power growth, as each new sliver not only means a fresh body (with all the powers of everything else present), but also more powers to the group.

I've gotta go to work now, but I'll likely be giving more thought to all of this while I'm there. I've wanted to use Sliver-style enemies in a campaign for quite a while now.

As for "Queen spawns new Sliver, Victual lets it explode, mass healing for all"; Yeah, that's cheesy. But as pointed out, it fits the Sliver schtick nicely. Massive swarm of targets, you can either try to thin it out by killing a target each turn (and if it doesn't die, it will be healed to full on the Queen's turn), or you can go straight to the Queen, with scads of superpowered, venomous, flying, barbed, ANGRY creatures harassing you the entire time. And again... if you don't kill the Queen in a single round, she'll heal to full in a shower of self-created gore.

AgentPaper
2009-05-09, 09:18 PM
As for "Queen spawns new Sliver, Victual lets it explode, mass healing for all"; Yeah, that's cheesy. But as pointed out, it fits the Sliver schtick nicely. Massive swarm of targets, you can either try to thin it out by killing a target each turn (and if it doesn't die, it will be healed to full on the Queen's turn), or you can go straight to the Queen, with scads of superpowered, venomous, flying, barbed, ANGRY creatures harassing you the entire time. And again... if you don't kill the Queen in a single round, she'll heal to full in a shower of self-created gore.

It fits, sure, but I think it's just far too powerful a combo to allow. Remember that even if the Queen loses 5 HP each time she makes a sliver and 'splodes it for damage, that's still a lot of slivers she's making, and if there's any sort of other healing going on, she can keep doing it.

Anyways, I've gotten pretty far with statting this all out for 4E, taking Silver's advice to heart. There's still a few slivers that just add a stat boost, but they're definitely in the minority.

The most basic thing I'm doing, though is making it so that ALL abilities increase the level of slivers by 1, which increases their HP by 8, gives +1 to all defenses and attacks, and also increases damage. With 70 different types of boost, that makes for level 72 slivers if you get every single type onto the field. Then Overlords and Queens each add another 4 onto there, giving you level 80 slivers, along with level 86 Overlords and Queens.

Of course, anyone planning to have these guys as native beasts to their world should pick a certain number of types that exist, to limit their power. For example if you want slivers to be a heroic challenge only, you pick just a handful, while if you want them to be a threat even in high epic play, you might pick two dozen. Of course, if you just want to mix things up and don't care if fridge logic dictates that Slivers should have taken over the world with their 5,000 level 80 hatchlings, you can have all of the breeds exist in the world, and then just limit the number in any one fight.

afroakuma
2009-05-09, 09:31 PM
For the original Tempest batch (wow, I feel old...)

Talon: Increase reach 5', does not stack
Clot: Regeneration 2 (fire or acid negates), does stack
Heart: Increase initiative by +4, does not stack
Winged: Grants fly speed (30 ft., poor maneuverability), does stack (improves maneuverability)
Muscle: +1 HD, and everything that implies.

I'd call them aberrations, though.

AgentPaper
2009-05-09, 10:20 PM
What I did for heart was allow any sliver with the heart ability to act immediately after any other sliver with the heart ability instead of when they would normally that round. So if one sliver gets a high initiative and goes first, all the other slivers can pile up behind him and also go first. However, if the heart sliver died, then the slivers would have to go back to acting in their normal initiative order.

Edit: Which brings another important point. All the bonuses should be something that has a lasting effect on the field, which wouldn't be there anymore if the bonus was negated. For example if your Heart Sliver just gives a +X to initiative, that's not really going to do anything. Initiative has already been rolled, so unless you plan to run away and come back, there's no reason to want to take down that heart sliver.

On the other hand, if you use something like my ability, then you want to take down the heart sliver first, because doing so will keep the slivers from attacking all at once, as well as buying you an additional round or so. That might not even be enough, compared to the bonuses other slivers might give, so you could also make the ability daze all the slivers for a round as well. (though that might be over-kill, especially in action-economy centric 3.5 :smalltongue:)

Brigham
2009-05-10, 04:38 PM
It might be better to make the extraordinary abilities contingent on number instead of variety. For instance, one sliver is mundane, two slivers within 20 feet each gain + 1d6 fire, three slivers within 30 feet gain an additional 5 feet of reach, etc. Slivers gain +1 to all abilities for each sliver within some distance (lone slivers gain no bonuses, always remain mundane).

The range requirement might work better with a chain-effect, static range. Each sliver has a 20ft range to "connect" with another sliver, but you can daisy chain so that each sliver acts as a hub.

I don't know enough about the game to create a balanced table, but this would be a more simple route as far as DM management. The "augments via group size" could be easily explained by a pooled natural arcane ability or the increase in ability scores.

It keeps to the Sliver concept of aggregate doom, but keeps it mechanically simple.