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Starscream
2009-05-09, 01:57 AM
I've read a few sites on this topic, and cherry-picked some rules from here and there that I like. Others I have simply made up. But I'm not sure if they are enough. Any additions/subtractions/alterations you could provide would be very much appreciated.

General
* For the most part, any official WOTC sourcebooks are allowed. Setting specific stuff, however, must be approved by DM.
* 32 point character buy.
* Homebrews of any kind must be approved.
* Racial Substitution levels and Monster Classes are typically allowed. In the case of Monster Classes, if the monster in question has multiple "versions", you can stop at a particular version and begin advancing in PC classes. For instance, if you play as a Ghoul, you don't have to advance all the way to a Ghast to begin taking PC levels. You can stop at the point where you have all the powers of a standard Ghoul.
* When rolling HP, roll twice and take the better result.
* LA Buy Off is allowed.

Classes
* Clerics are proficient with the favored weapon of their deity.
* Druids can either have Wild Shape or an animal companion. Not both. If they give up Wild Shape they get the Shapeshift class feature from PHBII instead.
* Monks use Fax Celestis's variant (http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php?title=Monk).
* There are no favored classes. You can have up to 3 classes with no penalty. If you take a fourth you get the 20% xp penalty regardless of your levels.
* Monks and paladins may multiclass freely.
* Base classes mostly do not have alignment restrictions. Some however may not work well with certain alignments; a good Dread Necromancer is improbable as creating undead is an evil act, for instance. This is to allow more freedom for roleplaying. You can be a Barbarian and still have a strict code of honor (meaning you are lawful) without being "civilized" in the traditional sense.
* Paladins are a special case. A paladin can be any of the four "extreme" alignments. The variant paladins from UA are used, depending on which matches your alignment (Paladin of Honor, Freedom, Tyranny, or Slaughter).
* Prestige classes may still have alignment restrictions. There are no good Blackguards for instance. Others will have their restrictions lessened. Assassins can be neutral for example. Only if the theme of the class in inherently tied to a particular alignment will there be a restriction.

Alignment
* Alignments aren't as restrictive as some DMs rule. A good character (even a paladin) can do the occasional bad deed and get away with it, as long as they have a good reason. An evil character can have a decent streak and still be evil. One exception: characters who want to take anything from the Book of Exalted Deeds must be REALLY good. Those who want stuff from Book of Vile Darkness must be REALLY bad.
* Evil characters are discouraged but not banned. You need to come up with a good reason why you would be working with these guys, and more importantly, why they would agree to work with you. If the other players vote that they don't want an evil teammate, or don't think their characters would accept one, you can't play one. Just play neutral with a rotten streak. Don't worry, by the above rule, you can still kick the occasional puppy and get away with it.

Misc.
* As in 4th edition, you add either your STR or CON bonus to fortitude saves, your INT or DEX bonus to reflex saves, and your WIS or CHA bonus to will saves.
* Open Lock and Disable Device are the same skill: Thievery.
* Hide and Move Silently are the same skill: Stealth.
* Spot and Listen are the same skill: Perception.
* Toughness is replaced with Improved Toughness.
* If the caster succeeds on a DC 25 Spellcraft or Knowledge (Arcana or Religion) check, he can cast Identify without the 100gp component.

Spellcasting
* Alter Self, Polymorph, and Polymorph Any Object are banned. There is no way to balance these. To make up for it a little, Disguise Self now has a duration of 1 hour per caster level, and can be used to disguise yourself as another Creature Type. You can't use it to change your size by more than one category, however. It can also be cast on others (changing the name to just "Disguise").
* Shapechange is not banned. Level 9 spells are supposed to be broken. Might as well just ban all of them if you are looking for balance.
* Wraithstrike is banned. It's just too cheesy.
* Shivering Touch: Banned! Also known as the "Defeat any dragon without a save spell".
* Celerity and Greater Celerity: No Bloody Way!
* No Disjunction. Players rejoice, your items are safe. To make up for this, certain spells that could ordinarily only be affected by Disjunction (such as prismatic wall), can now be affected by Greater Dispel Magic.
* Divine Metamagic: Persist is not allowed. It is too powerful.

Prestige Classes
* These are mostly allowed, but please clear them with the DM a few levels ahead of time. This keeps you from wasting feats and such only to have me say "no".
* Non-spellcasting PRCs are almost always allowed. Martial characters lag behind spellcasters in terms of power anyway, so a nice PRC can help to close the gap.
* I particularly don't like PRCs that give full casting progression. As a general rule, if a PRC costs at least one caster level per 5 class levels, it will be acceptable. If you have to multiclass to a non-spellcasting class in order to qualify, that will be taken into consideration. I just don't want players who can cast as a Wizard 20 and get lots of free goodies besides.
* If the Prestige Class doesn't fit the above guidelines, don't lose hope: these things are negotiable. Possible fixes may include toughening the entry requirements or requiring that certain spell slots are permanently used up (such as in the Archmage class) in order to get the PRC's class features.

Notes
* All rules that apply to the player apply to the DM as well. If I say a spell or PRC is banned, then you won't meet any NPCs who have it either.
* I may, very rarely, allow an exception to one of these rules if there is a good reason. If it fits the story, you might find a scroll of Polymorph as treasure for instance. But you won't be able to find them in stores or copy them into your spellbook. If you don't abuse exceptions like this they may become more common.
* Please note that these House Rules are not intended to be a cure-all. Some classes are just naturally more powerful than others. The game will never be perfectly balanced, but with any luck we can close the gap enough that everyone can have fun.
* These rules are not all inclusive. There may be other stuff that is deemed overpowered and requires a fix. Stuff that is very underpowered might also receive a boost.

Kol Korran
2009-05-09, 02:44 AM
i'm not that much of a rule master, but these rules seem pretty decent to me. nice work i think. you should also be weary of some alchemical items. i know of some players who realy messed things up with an extensive use of them.

Tempest Fennac
2009-05-09, 03:20 AM
I agree that they look fine. I would say that Druids getting Shapeshifting with a companion would be a bit too powerful, though (I allow either Shapeshifer Druids or Focused Animal Druids in my games; FA Druids are on page 39 of http://crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Classes-Base.pdf).

Starscream
2009-05-09, 04:10 AM
you should also be weary of some alchemical items. i know of some players who realy messed things up with an extensive use of them.

Can you give me a couple of examples? I know Alchemist's Fire is pretty potent stuff, but I always assumed that it was too expensive at lower levels to be abused, and that by the time is was affordable in mass quantities it wouldn't be so powerful.


I would say that Druids getting Shapeshifting with a companion would be a bit too powerful, though (I allow either Shapeshifer Druids or Focused Animal Druids in my games; FA Druids are on page 39 of http://crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Classes-Base.pdf).

I might do that. Banning Wild Shape outright seems a little harsh, though. Though Shapeshift is much less overpowering.

Tempest Fennac
2009-05-09, 04:37 AM
He hasn't been around for a while, but I remember Chronicled (or however it's spelt; he used Celia in a pirate outfit as an avatar) limited his players to Shapeshifter Druids with Spontaneous Vigour instead of spontaneous SNA casting. He addmitted that SV is horrible, but he said that was a good thing because it helped to knock Druids down to the same level as everyone else (I'm guessing he had some issues with people spamming summon spells).

Curmudgeon
2009-05-09, 04:39 AM
While some of these rules aren't to my taste, overall they're pretty consistent with what you're trying to accomplish: bring spellcasters and martial types closer together in power. You might want to consider something specifically for Artificers and their "make lots of magic stuff, cheap" capability.

Starscream
2009-05-09, 07:09 AM
You might want to consider something specifically for Artificers and their "make lots of magic stuff, cheap" capability.

Well, technically as an Eberron specific class I could just nix them entirely. But to be honest I like these guys, so if a player wants to be one I'll probably allow it.

They are pretty overpowered, though. One fix might be to simply limit the effects they can produce to ones they've encountered before. For instance, they can't use Armor Enhancement to make Reflecting armor unless they've seen Reflecting armor and had time to study its effects.

I could simply limit the items they know about to Core only, and thus keep them from reproducing everything in the Magic Item Compendium unless I introduce some of that stuff to to campaign first.

Or I could simply let them start out with a certain number of Known Effects, and let them advance it as they level. Maybe also let them go to a magic item shop and pay to study new items for a few hours, in the same way a Wizard can buy a scroll of a spell and copy it into his spellbook.

Never really encountered any Artificer specific house rules, so I'm not sure how balanced these ideas are.

Book Wyrm
2009-05-09, 07:44 AM
I would definitely merge Hide and Move Silently into one skill: Stealth and Spot and Listen into another skill: Perception. You could also merge Search into Perception, but it has its own merits to remain a separate skill. This will really cut down on dice rolling, in a good way. You could even merge Use Rope into Survival and merge some of the knowledge skills together, like Nobility and Royalty into History and Geography into Nature, but thats all up to you.

Depending on how you feel about Tome of Battle, I would highly encourage melee characters to use the martial adept classes instead of the PHB melee classes. Warblades are great Fighters, Crusaders are Paladins, and Swordsages with the Unarmed variant are what the Monk was supposed to be.

Ban DMM: Persist, if not Divine Metamagic outright.

Heliomance
2009-05-09, 08:35 AM
The trouble with saying Wildshape is replaced by Shapechange as a blanket decree is that some players might want to play a Druid speicifically for the flavour of Wildshape. Personally, I don't much care for the Druid spell list, and if I were to ever play a Druid I'd focus on Wildshape and head off into Master of Many Forms as soon as possible.

Tequila Sunrise
2009-05-09, 09:32 AM
* For the most part, any official WOTC sourcebooks are allowed. Setting specific stuff, however, must be approved by DM.
Any particular reason you single out setting-specific books? They can be bad, but so can any book. As a DM myself, I have a simple standing rule: If a PC option turns out to be too good [or too bad], I will retroactively mod or ban it.


* When rolling HP, roll twice and take the better result.
This is a fine house rule, but out of curiosity, why standardize stats but not HP?




* Druids can either have Wild Shape or an animal companion. Not both. If they give up Wild Shape they get the Shapeshift class feature from PHBII instead.
I'd give the choice between a companion or Shapeshift. If you want druids to have access to nifty Wildshape-oriented PrCs, you can treat SS as WS.



* Monks and paladins may multiclass freely, within their respective alignment restrictions.
Have you considered dropping alignment restrictions altogether? I know it's not a balance issue, but I have a vendetta against ARs.



* Alignments aren't as restrictive as some DMs rule. A good character (even a paladin) can do the occasional bad deed and get away with it, as long as they have a good reason. An evil character can have a decent streak and still be evil.
Awesome. Nobody is all Good or all Evil.

tyckspoon
2009-05-09, 09:49 AM
Any particular reason you single out setting-specific books? They can be bad, but so can any book. As a DM myself, I have a simple standing rule: If a PC option turns out to be too good [or too bad], I will retroactively mod or ban it.


There is a valid distinction to be drawn between actual setting-specific material and stuff that just happens to appear in a setting sourcebook. You should be able to use Song Of The Heart without playing in Eberron, f'r example. On the other hand, feats like Favored In House and classes like the Dragonmarked Heirs don't make a lot of sense if Eberron's setting assumptions aren't in play. That's how I would play it, anyway- you can take any general feat/item/class as if it were from any other splat, but you should ask about anything that is badged with a setting-specific name or flavor.

Starscream
2009-05-09, 10:09 AM
Any particular reason you single out setting-specific books? They can be bad, but so can any book. As a DM myself, I have a simple standing rule: If a PC option turns out to be too good [or too bad], I will retroactively mod or ban it.

Mostly it's the inconvenience of having to borrow some obscure book from my roommate (his collection dwarfs mine) and validate it on the fly. It slows things down, whereas most of the generic setting stuff I already know about and have an answer for. I don't forbid it, but I'd like to know about it in advance so I don't have to stop the game.

Also, my players are mostly newbies who have been using the internet for optimization tips. If they request something from a super obscure book I know they don't have access to, that probably means they heard about it on some forum and it's a game breaker.

I learned about Planar Shepard this way. Nearly had a heart attack.


This is a fine house rule, but out of curiosity, why standardize stats but not HP?

Just sort of ended up that way. In our last campaign every time the characters leveled the squishy wizard would roll a 1 for HP. I was afraid it would ruin the game for her to be so feeble even by her class's standards, so I told her to just roll again. To be fair I then said that everyone else could have a second roll as well, and just take the better result.


I'd give the choice between a companion or Shapeshift. If you want druids to have access to nifty Wildshape-oriented PrCs, you can treat SS as WS.

How would that work with, say, Master of Many Forms? That PRC basically sacrifices all spellcasting to greatly improve the already super versatile Wild Shape.


Have you considered dropping alignment restrictions altogether? I know it's not a balance issue, but I have a vendetta against ARs.

Might just do that. A monk/barbarian seems a little counter-intuitive, but if the player really wants to... I do allow the variant Paladins from UA if lawful good isn't their cup of tea.

kjones
2009-05-09, 10:27 AM
Misc.
* As in 4th edition, you add either your STR or CON to fortitude saves, your INT or DEX to reflex saves, and your WIS or CHA bonuses to will saves.


I'm surprised nobody's mentioned this one yet. It's interesting - it seems that it will result in most people having much better saves overall. Whether this is good or bad is up to you, I suppose.

I'm curious as to how it plays out in practice.

Tequila Sunrise
2009-05-09, 10:30 AM
Mostly it's the inconvenience of having to borrow some obscure book from my roommate (his collection dwarfs mine) and validate it on the fly. It slows things down, whereas most of the generic setting stuff I already know about and have an answer for. I don't forbid it, but I'd like to know about it in advance so I don't have to stop the game.

Also, my players are mostly newbies who have been using the internet for optimization tips. If they request something from a super obscure book I know they don't have access to, that probably means they heard about it on some forum and it's a game breaker.

I learned about Planar Shepard this way. Nearly had a heart attack.
Ah, point taken.




How would that work with, say, Master of Many Forms? That PRC basically sacrifices all spellcasting to greatly improve the already super versatile Wild Shape.
Well it would probably require a bit of homebrewing, to be fair. Can't say for sure though, as my books are in a different country at the moment. If you're interested, I wrote up a couple utility Shapeshift forms in my Tome of House Rules (http://lukebuchanan.com/TS_Tome_of_House_Rules_3e.pdf).



Might just do that. A monk/barbarian seems a little counter-intuitive, but if the player really wants to... I do allow the variant Paladins from UA if lawful good isn't their cup of tea.
Most paladin players like playing LG, but I like to keep everyone's options open. Most classes can be refluffed into many concepts, so ARs seem like the game telling you "no, you're playing your character wrong," IMO.

Starscream
2009-05-09, 10:54 AM
Most classes can be refluffed into many concepts, so ARs seem like the game telling you "no, you're playing your character wrong," IMO.

Yeah, that would be bad. I think I'd draw the line at good aligned Blackguards, though.

Kylarra
2009-05-09, 10:56 AM
Other than the paladin reference, the alignment thing seems to be mostly fluffy. There's no reason to not explicitly state it, but by RAW, a single act or small run of acts that run counter to your alignment [generally*] isn't going to shift you, as long as their behavior is generally consistent with that alignment overall.

As far as the Paladin goes, how do Paladin fall in your games? Since they can just handwave any evil deed that happens as long as they're generally good now.






*exceptions are made for things like creating planes of puppies and kicking them before going back and giving to charity to try to offset your negative karma.

Starscream
2009-05-09, 11:19 AM
There's no reason to not explicitly state it, but by RAW, a single act or small run of acts that run counter to your alignment [generally*] isn't going to shift you, as long as their behavior is generally consistent with that alignment overall.

You know that and I know that, but all you need to do is open up any alignment debate thread to see that there are plenty of players who take the black-and-white morality thing pretty seriously.

There are people who say "Aha! Superman once walked by a Salvation Army Santa without giving him a quarter! Clearly he is lawful neutral!" And others who say "The Joker burned an orphanage to the ground, but then was nice to Harley for an hour. Chaotic neutral much?"


As far as the Paladin goes, how do Paladin fall in your games? Since they can just handwave any evil deed that happens as long as they're generally good now.

Well, I wouldn't say they can handwave evil deeds. I just mean that no one can be a paragon of light and virtue 24 hours a day. Not without being a one dimensional character, anyway. You can't kick a beggar one minute, kiss a baby the next and call yourself LG.

This is just my way of saying that I'm not going to be one of those DMs who lays alignment traps for the characters, and declares them fallen if they forget to say "Bless you" when someone sneezes. There's a bit of leeway, is all.

Kylarra
2009-05-09, 11:28 AM
Well, I wouldn't say they can handwave evil deeds. I just mean that no one can be a paragon of light and virtue 24 hours a day. Not without being a one dimensional character, anyway. You can't kick a beggar one minute, kiss a baby the next and call yourself LG.

This is just my way of saying that I'm not going to be one of those DMs who lays alignment traps for the characters, and declares them fallen if they forget to say "Bless you" when someone sneezes. There's a bit of leeway, is all.Good intentions are easy to attribute to any act with the right roleplaying. I don't have any real objections to that particular addition, I was just pointing out that it's not strictly necessary. On the other hand, explicit explanation is good for newer players who might otherwise feel constrained by their alignment.

Riffington
2009-05-09, 11:51 AM
There are people who say "Aha! Superman once walked by a Salvation Army Santa without giving him a quarter! Clearly he is lawful neutral!"
I cannot let this opportunity pass:
http://superdickery.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=29:fathers-day&catid=28:superdickery&Itemid=54

Coidzor
2009-05-09, 12:01 PM
I cannot let this opportunity pass:
http://superdickery.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=29:fathers-day&catid=28:superdickery&Itemid=54

I see your CN and raise you one C(L?!)E. (http://superdickery.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&catid=28%3Asuperdickery&id=60%3Ajimmy-vs-aquaman&Itemid=54)

Also, a heart attack? seriously? :smallconfused: That's no good. :smallfrown:

Starscream
2009-05-09, 12:08 PM
I cannot let this opportunity pass:
http://superdickery.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=29:fathers-day&catid=28:superdickery&Itemid=54

Ah, Superdickery. And to think there are people who actually miss the Silver Age :smallwink:


Also, a heart attack? seriously? :smallconfused: That's no good. :smallfrown:

No, not seriously. If anything I was more likely to die of Fatal Hilarity. I can't believe they actually published that PrC. Sometimes I'm almost sure they don't playtest this stuff.

Nohwl
2009-05-09, 01:00 PM
i might have to try a few of these.

Starscream
2009-05-10, 06:17 AM
Thanks for the suggestions guys, I've updated the rules to include some of them.