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imp_fireball
2009-05-09, 05:48 AM
Firearm Qualities

- The incredible force provided by a single bullet's speed gives it the ability to cut natural armor and armor bonuses in half as well unless the armor is specifically made to be bullet proof (some bullet proof armor is quite vulnerable to melee); light fortification can give a +2 to AC against bullets unless the material used to make the armor is weak in comparison to the force created by the round (ie. a gauss bullet compared to a .22) and the same applies to heavy fortification at +4 AC; all of these rolls would be made (or modified from what players rolled) by the GM, since players can't be expected to write down all the details
Variant: A static bonus is listed by the person who creates a firearm. This static bonus is called 'Armor Penetration' and refers to the firearm's ability to bypass natural armor, shield and armor bonuses (stacked). Armor Penetration does not apply against 'bullet proofed' armor (a quality). Bullet proofing must be applied to each bonus individually.

- A non-automatic 'repeating' fire arm can be fired many times in a round, however each additional shot is at a -4 penalty and qualifies as 'wild fire'. Repeating weapons generally do a lot less damage than automatic weapons since they concern a single bullet as opposed to many.

- Firing is a move action, in place of the usual standard action required for attacking. The recoil of firing larger weapons usually converts it back into a standard action.

- Can ignore damage reduction or hardness due to material at GM discretion (ie. DR/adamantine), often the former only in extreme cases

- Because firing a firearm is relatively simple, it can be performed while prone (just like a crossbow or shuriken). If the wielder willingly made themselves fall prone (or kneeling, etc.), then there is no penalty to attacking with a firearm, unless the target has partial/total cover (in which case, the penalty applies anyway). Firing becomes a standard action right after falling prone if opponents have initiative over the wielder and is a move action from then on.

- A light firearm (usually one that is handheld) can make attacks of opportunity against other opponents within point blank range (usually 30ft.), but only to do with anything that does not involve movement between spaces. If a ranged attacker makes an attack within the range that you threaten with a firearm, then dexterity checks are made between you and that opponent. If you win the check, then you may make an attack of opportunity. Failure still uses up one attack of opportunity for the rest of the round, since participating in the DEX check still indicates your attempt to make an attack of opportunity.

- Making a ranged AoO in the way listed above is considered 'firing wildly' unless you have at least +1 BAB. The same goes for firing even a light firearm without using two hands (or more depending what is needed for 'effective control').

- Some heavier firearms have such immense recoil that there is a STR requirement to not incur any attack penalty.

- Even though most small arms might not do slashing or bludgeoning damage when at range, they can still be used for sundering depending on the circumstances.

- Bullets are non-recoverable (except as metal slag at GM discretion).

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There are two types of fire arm and three types of what can apply to 'small arm' (AKA gun). Another name for a fire arm is 'mass driver' because it drives a mass as opposed to what other guns (a human english word) can do.

- Chemical fire arms propel their munition at speeds of what is usually at least five times the speed of a professional pitcher's fast ball (100 kilometers/hour). They use all the rules prescribed above.

- Gauss fire arms are notably faster, standardized for their ability to propel their munition in multiples of the speed of sound, although the damage is merely similar to the former mass driver. Gauss firearms use all the rules prescribed above with the addition that they can usually completely remove any armor or natural armor bonuses applied, including light and heavy fortification while bulletproof armor is often cut in half. In some cases, shield bonuses are also removed depending on the hardness and hp of what granted such a bonus (GM discretion).

- Non-mass driver guns, such as laser and plasma/particle guns often depend on energy related damage. Damage is usually high but often struggles against hardness, resistance and damage reduction. The former is usually more costly but efficient (in attack, damage and universality) while the latter often offers only similar damage for less cost.


For early firearms:
- Inaccuracy penalty which is constant but also increases tremendously at vast ranges
- Gun powder is exposed and volatile. Fire damage can make it explode and water can ruin it. Must be kept in proofed containers to reduce such risk.
- Damage is usually higher due to much higher caliber and expanding metals, but the action of firing is slower in that it also involves much longer reload time (it can take as much as three rapid reload feats to reduce it to something similar to reloading a light crossbow with a single RR feat).
- Lower munition velocity means that it is technically easier to 'bulletproof' armor. Bullet proofing still leans away from the norm but is possible with mundane medieval tools (create slanted metal armor, ie., instead of interwoven fibers for kevlar). Of course, modern firearms (at GM discretion) still might have a small bonus towards attacking opponents in this type of armor.
- In settings where guns are common, firearms are usually simple weapons due to ease of use (peasants might be toting blunder busses). Guns that require more training to handle and use are often martial weapons. Technological marvels and rarities are of course exotic weapons.

Sample Firearms

Colt .45

Damage: 2d6
Range: 40ft.
Type: Revolver/Repeater (contains six rounds), light sized
Requirements:
- Martial Weapons Proficiency
Characteristics:
- Chemical Firearm

Colt .45 and Munition Blueprint

Parts
- Craft: Weapons DC 15
- Craft: Mechanical DC 15
- Craft: Chemical DC 15
- Parts Purchase DC: 10

Completion
- Techcraft DC 5

Duration
- Three weeks

Sawed-off 12 Gauge

Damage: 2d8 Slashing/Piercing
Range: 20ft.
Type: Insert/Lesser Repeater (contains 8 rounds), one handed
Requirements:
- Martial Weapons Proficiency
- STR 12
Characteristics
- Chemical Firearm
- Affects all within target space (5ft.), although those that are not specified as a target have partial cover (can only specify one target/attack)
- Special: Has a +1 bonus to hit targets within 10ft. of shooter (stacks with point blank shot feat)

12 Gauge Shotgun and Munition Blueprint

Parts
- Craft: Weapons DC 10
- Craft: Mechanical DC 15
- Craft: Chemical DC 15
- Parts Purchase DC: 10

Completion
- Techcraft DC 5

Duration
- Three weeks

Modification (to achieve 'sawed-off' condition)
- One hour, Techcraft DC 10, hacksaw and vice

Ak-47

Damage: 2d8 (automatic), 2d4 (repeater); Piercing
Range: 130ft.
Type: Magazine/Automatic (contains 60 rounds), two handed
Requirements:
- Martial Weapons Proficiency
Characteristics
- Rifled Chemical Firearm
- Two Firing Modes (repeater/automatic)
Automatic Firearm characteristics
Firing Rate: 48 bullets/round
AoE: 5ft./5ft. space (10 bullets/attack)

Ak47and Munition Blueprint

Parts
- Craft: Weapons DC 15
- Craft: Mechanical DC 20
- Craft: Chemical DC 15
- Parts Purchase DC: 15

Completion
- Techcraft DC 8

Duration
- Five weeks

Handgonne

Damage: 2d10 Slashing/Piercing/Bludgeoning
Range: 20ft.
Type: Hand-loaded/Single, two handed
Reload Time: Three full round actions.
Change of Mishap: 30% - Use: Technological Device DC 20 to reduce
Requirements:
- Martial Weapons Proficiency
Characteristics
- Early Chemical Firearm

Handgonne and Munitions Blueprint

Parts
- Craft: Weapons DC 15
- Craft: Metal Working (for masterwork quality) DC 15
- Craft: Mechanical DC 10
- Craft: Chemical DC 15
- Parts Purchase DC: 5

Completion
- Techcraft DC 10

Duration
- Two Weeks

NOTE: All Craft DCs (including techcraft) are specific to their assumed setting. The same goes for proficiencies.


Firearm Types

Revolver

Revolvers involve a revolving chamber with slots hollowed out for containing cartridges that house bullets. Revolvers typically appear as repeaters or automatics, and usually require a standard action to fully reload when their chamber's access to munition is cut off.

Alternatively, assuming cartridges are easily accessible, they can be partially reloaded at GM discretion with less actions, in the form of swift or move actions. If the circuit of munition demands that it can only be reloaded in one larger action (as might be the case with belts of munition for a chain gun), then the actions to reload cannot be cut down.

Insert

If the gun requires some sort of insertion function involving the munition cartridges/shell casings being loaded one after the other, then such a process is usually a move action. Guns that can house more than one cartridge of munition can typically be fully reloaded in a full action or cut down to swift, move or standard actions at GM discretion.

Hand Loaded

Hand Loaded firearms typically always require move actions to replace munition. Heavier ones are similar to heavy crossbows (usually depending on the weight of the munition and process through which loading is made).

The difference between hand loading and insertion is that firearms with an insertion reloading function can have their actions cut down, whereas a hand load firearm demands a single action.

Magazine

Guns that have magazines are typically the most convenient because they can fire as many times as the user likes until the magazine placed within the gun is emptied of its munition. It typically takes a move action to replace a magazine, assuming a character has quick access to another one (as reloading a light crossbow).

Repeater

Repeating firearms typically store more than one bullet within the confines of their mechanism, and can be continually reloaded as free actions (since the one reloading is actually the mechanism within the gun itself), until whatever feeds munitions to the gun is empty.

Repeaters, because they typically require only the pull of a trigger, are move actions to attack. They usually dispense one bullet/attack, just like every other gun except for automatics and singles (under some circumstances).

Automatic

Automatic firearms can dispense multiple bullets within a single attack action, although the action is usually standard.

Automatic firearms demand that a space can be targeted rather than the opponent occupying the space. The space itself usually has an AC of 5 to hit, and if successful, prompts a reflex save from the opponent.

Some automatic firearms also target multiple spaces, but require only one roll on a single space to be properly place their fire - The target space is also the 'front space' and horizontally closest to the shooter. Ie. An automatic firearm that has an AoE of 10ft. by 10ft. uses the space specified by the player as the space 'in front', with the 5ft. space behind that as the rest of the vertical area. The space closest to the shooter, might the left-most area of effect, and so that is the target space, with the right most area being the rest of the area of effect.

Automatic firearms dispense a number of bullets/attack depending on their firing rate and the amount of ammo they have access to, usually at GM discretion (alternatively the GM can use weapons that already have stats).

The reflex save to save is DC equal to what the shooter rolled to hit AC 5 of their target space.

Automatic Firearms Variant

Creatures behind one another can still be affected, however they have cover to the creature in front of them.

Lesser Repeaters

Lesser Repeaters, such as pump action shotguns, usually require a standard action to attack because it forces their wielder to re-chamber the rounds (with a 'pumping' motion), rather then to make it an automatic feature of the mechanism.

Single

Singles typically contain one bullet (whether in a cartridge or without one) per barrel and usually must be hand loaded. The amount of time to reload with a single always varies, usually ranging from at least one move action to a duration spanning over multiple full actions, but can be reduced based on various conditional circumstances. For this reason, the amount of time to reload is usually listed in the weapon description.


Firearm Characteristics

Firearm characteristics include anything that is prescribed above in the 'firearm qualities' as well as other special features of the specific firearm.

Chemical Firearm

Chemical Firearms cut armor and natural armor bonuses in half unless the bonus in question is 'bullet proofed'. Natural armor and armor bonuses must be proofed separately. Natural armor bonuses typically cannot be proofed, anyway. Ballistic Weave is usually automatically considered bulletproof.

Light fortification and heavy fortification provide +2 and +4 bonuses against chemical firearms respectively.

Rifled Chemical Firearm

Rifled Chemical Firearms have all the same characteristics as Chemical Firearms, however their range increments are double those of Chemical Firearms, with 20th being the maximum and at only a -1 penalty for each increment beyond the lowest.

Early Chemical Firearm

Early Chemical Firearms have all the same characteristics as Chemical Firearms, however their range increments are restricted to the fifth increment, instead of the tenth, as is usual for most ranged weapons.

Early Chemical Firearms also typically have a 'chance of mishap', usually listed in the description, which is provoked every time the weapon is fired. When a mishap is provoked, various things can go wrong with the gun, from damaging the weapon, to being incapable of firing until cleaned (usually best case scenario), to damaging the shooter, or any other number of terrible things.

A Use: Technological Device check, usually at at least a half hour duration, can cut the chance of a mishap in half temporarily. Masterwork weapons also have less of a chance of mishap, typically reducing the chance by 10%.


Sample Armors that are made bulletproof (as standard)

Light Flak Jacket

Armor Bonus: +1
Qualities: +4 AC versus light firearms, other bullets at GM discretion and size small arrows; ranged AC. Does not stack with constant armor bonus.
Armor Check Penalty/Max DEX bonus: As Cloth Armor in SRD
Type: Light armor
Requirements:
- Light armor proficiency
Characteristics:
- Bulletproof

Light Flak Jacket Blueprint

Parts
- Craft: Armor DC 15
- Craft: Textiles DC 15
- Parts Purchase DC: 15

Completion
- Profession: Tailor DC 15
- Knowledge: Science and Technology DC 10

Duration
- Three weeks

NOTE: All Craft DCs (including techcraft) are specific to their assumed setting. The same goes for proficiencies.


Sample Feats and Special Abilities

Feat

Open Proficiency

Prerequisite: At least one Exotic Weapon/Armor/Shield Proficiency, proficient with at least one entire class of weapons/armor/shield (simple, martial, etc.) when character sheet says so.

At GM discretion, and only if you encounter other weapons/armor/shields similar in nature to it, the type of exotic weapon/armor/shield that you wield can actually fall into a class of its own. Effectively, take all exotic weapons/armor/shields in that special exotic class and merge them with another class of weapons/armor/shields that your character is proficient with. Specific to this character, these weapons/armor/shields are now included within that class of items.

When merging exotics to a class that's martial or simple, use the same type (light or heavy armor, two handed weapon, etc.) for that item as it was originally during the time in which it was considered exotic for the character.

Additional Role Playing Factor: Either the character/group of PCs went on a quest to help the character discover the nature of the class of weapon/armor/shield, the character made an associated knowledge check to have a spout of realization, or they merely had enough experience with observing the class of weapon/armor/shield (and using their exotic weapon/armor/shield) to merely familiarize with what all of them are like. All of this requires GM discretion and isn't necessary for taking the feat.

Sample Use of Feat

Jack, first level human fighter, has taken exotic weapon proficiency: handgonne. Upon reaching second level - and after completing one of the requirements laid out in the 'additional role playing factor' at GM discretion - he takes Open Proficiency: Handgonne, which allows him to merge handgonne and others like it with his simple weapon proficiencies, as a part of that list.

Effectively, the exotic weapon proficiency: handgonne feat (with Open Proficiency in place) now encompasses all early fire arms that fire with similar range and power to the handgonne and that are wielded in the same way. This being determined at GM discretion.

For the purpose of this feat, the exotic weapon proficiency is the agent through which the merger is conducted - Jack had to learn about how to use the handgonne before he could familiarize himself with all other things similar to it - and so their is no additional applicable rules for 'unlearning' the feat and taking another one in its place - however the GM can again allow such a rule as a variant.

For a convenient variant, Jack might unlearn exotic weapon proficiency: handgonne, now useless when the handgonne and all other weapons similar to it are considered simple for him, and spend an amount of XP: 25% of his total - a good hard number when matched up against the fact that he is 33.333% (recurring) 'more trained' with four feats than he was with three feats - to learn a new feat to fill the empty slot.

Special Ability

Focusing a Shot

A 'focused' shot means that you can threaten a crit at two increments higher but requires a full action. Ie., If a gun normally threatens at 18-20 then a focused shot with that gun would threaten at 16-20. If a gun can shoot as a move action, then those attacks instead function as the usual standard action for attacking (half as many attacks allowed). If the process through which an attack made with a gun ordinarily requires a standard action, then a focused shot is a full action.

A focused shot cannot be readied unless the opponent has not moved in the time that the shot was readied and the round in which the shot was made. Variant: If an opponent moves during the round in which the shot is made, the GM can always view the initiative order to determine whether or not it counts.

Focused shots can usually only be made with guns that are 'accurately measured' (usually firearms that are not 'early') and in some cases, guns that are of a particular 'degree' of accuracy - usually rifles and pistols with particularly high comparative range such as desert eagles. Focused shots with firearms that are less comparatively accurate can either be ruled as impossible or at a -2 penalty.

Suppressing Fire

The wielder of an automatic can suppress as a special attack. In order to do so, they must ready an action and then expend a full action to suppress next round. They can also cancel their full action during the round as a swift action, but they cannot make any more attacks with the weapon that involve firing. Suppression expends a number of bullets equal to the amount of bullets expendable in 6 seconds, according to its firing rate (measured in number of bullets/round). A suppressor chooses a specific space to fire upon as their readied action (which they cannot change until next round).

During the round that they suppress, they can change target spaces or move while suppressing (meaning that they must make another attack against AC 5, usually). This creates a cone between their original target space and the new one that reflects their 'changing line of sight'. The most convenient number of spaces (where diagonal spaces are always 5ft. for this purpose) is the path that they take to change directions. Anything along those spaces is affected by their automatic weapon, and the number of spaces to reach their new target divides the damage.

Ie. (feel free to draw this on a piece of graph paper) Sally with a chain gun, standing at E3, readies an action to suppress at A2 for round one.

The chain gun's firing rate is 70 bullets/round; where each attack action expends 15 bullets, and deals 2d8 damage. Suppressing effectively deals up to 8d8 damage, but, for purposes of damage reduction, is assumed to attack and damage four times (even though the attack and damage are only rolled once).

On round two, Sally changes targets to A6, meaning that she disperses damage along 4 spaces. Effectively, she deals damage along A3 - 6, and any creatures within those spaces are must make reflex saves, albeit with a +4 modifier to the save. The creature in A6 is forced to make a regular reflex save, since that's Sally's target.

Alternatively, Sally can move, albeit at half speed, and change target spaces in the same action. This also means that she expends her standard action for next round and any new targets that fall into her line of sight are considered to have partial concealment (miss chance).

Coup De Grace on a Moving Target

A coup de grace can be made on a moving target with a ranged weapon, however it must be a readied action. You must also accurately predict the space where the target will move to upon the next round. A standard action is taken up for the next round (in addition the standard action required to ready) performing the aimed shot, at a -4 penalty - assuming the target moves into the right space.

A coup de grace cannot be performed simultaneously with any other action that encompasses the readied action, since a coup de grace is an action of its own - ie. you cannot ready an action to shoot a target as soon as they moves or perform any other action besides standing still, and declare that attack a coup de grace as well.

Similarly, a coup de grace can be made on a moving target in melee however you must accurately predict the space to which that target will move and forgo all attacks of opportunity for the round in which you readied the action. Finally, the target space must be one that you threaten and you cannot move after readying the action (without breaking the readied action).

This coup de grace is special in that it only automatically counts as a critical strike, and doesn't force the enemy to make a fortitude save against death as listed in the SRD for ordinary coup de graces.

lesser_minion
2009-05-09, 09:57 AM
This seems like a lot more than is really necessary to introduce firearms into the game in a plausible way.

I have a few points though:

The D&D combat rules are by necessity extremely abstract. You do not need anywhere near this many rules. A more agile target is harder to hit. There is no way that 50% of a character's dodge bonuses derive from being able to see an arrow and move out of the way. It also makes firearms far more accurate than they should be. While a firearm penetrates metal pretty well, you should probably just give a simple bonus to hit. Put enough metal in the way of a bullet and you can stop it. Even non-ballistic armours can still stop a bullet from doing too much damage. Also, many ballistic vests still provide a measure of protection against stabbing or piercing attacks. Repeating firearms should be reloaded as a free action while there are rounds left in the weapon.They are no harder to reload than a repeating crossbow. Firing a shot takes enough concentration to be a standard action. Firing a firearm while prone is fine. You don't need any more rules than that. Pistols should not get any bonuses in melee whatsoever. They don't even give a melee advantage over bare hands. Non-recoverable bullets are fine.

Gorgondantess
2009-05-09, 10:13 AM
This seems like a lot more than is really necessary to introduce firearms into the game in a plausible way.

I have a few points though:

The D&D combat rules are by necessity extremely abstract. You do not need anywhere near this many rules. A more agile target is harder to hit. There is no way that 50% of a character's dodge bonuses derive from being able to see an arrow and move out of the way. It also makes firearms far more accurate than they should be. While a firearm penetrates metal pretty well, you should probably just give a simple bonus to hit. Put enough metal in the way of a bullet and you can stop it. Even non-ballistic armours can still stop a bullet from doing too much damage. Also, many ballistic vests still provide a measure of protection against stabbing or piercing attacks. Repeating firearms should be reloaded as a free action while there are rounds left in the weapon.They are no harder to reload than a repeating crossbow. Firing a shot takes enough concentration to be a standard action. Firing a firearm while prone is fine. You don't need any more rules than that. Pistols should not get any bonuses in melee whatsoever. They don't even give a melee advantage over bare hands. Non-recoverable bullets are fine.

Actually, full plate mail will not stop a bullet in any way, shape or form, except from coming out the other end. This causes it to bounce back while inside the armor, hitting the guy essentially twice. Historic records have shown that with a musket against an armored knight this can happen up to 4 times, turning him into swiss cheese. In my humble opinion, bullets should be touch attacks- a deflection bonus should still do it, and yes 30 natural armor or +10 mountain plate would definitely do something, but let's keep it simple, shall we? I see too many rules in the OP. However, I like the exploding gunpower when struck by fire damage, and the water making bullets useless. Reloading guns should be a full round action, rapid reload reducing it to a standard action; this is, actiually, very generous. Reloading an arquebus usually takes about 10-15 seconds, tops. However, if we are dealing with a more modern form of weapon- say, civil war era guns- I'd give it a standard action, reduced to a move action with rapid reload. These usually have little paper sacs with the gunpowder and bullet already encolsed, but it still requires genger treatment. There's already plenty of rules for covering automatic and futuristic weapons. These, in my humble opinion, belong in d20 modern/future.

Karma Guard
2009-05-09, 10:14 AM
I agree with lesser minion- simplifying this is essential, and all that other stuff too. :V

Cut armor in half (or to nothing if you have (expensive) AP ammo), allow full dodging, allow normal AoOs, treat as a normal ranged weapon in melee. Reloading takes a while (muzzle-load) or not so long (AK-47), depending on the weapon.

You can use the butt of the pistol to do lethal damage instead of the usual nonlethal.

Why not come up with a few examples of each type of gun mentioned?

Ashtagon
2009-05-09, 11:24 AM
Commentary first...

* Bullets are fast, but on a human scale of reaction times, they are the same speed as an arrow. No reason to penalise high-Dex targets.
* Firearms as touch attack weapons is justified. (Same is possibly true for crossbows and longbows, tbh, but that raises funky game-balance issues).
* Rate of fire depends a lot on level of technology and level of realism. Early handgonnes could perform at about 3 shots per minute (ie. 3 full-round actions to reload). There's no justification for making shooting a move action though.
* Ignore DR is justified, but ONLY if you let a great number of other weapons also ignore DR.
* You can shoot while prone. No extra rules needed.

* Accuracy is adequately represented by range increment rules.
* Gunpowder is volatile. Good call on explosion and water rule concept.
* Firearms as touch attack weapons is justified.
* Not sure where you're going with the "bullet-proofing".
* There's no particular justification for setting some personal firearms as Simple, and others at a different level. They all use pretty much the same "point and click" interface.

Now, firearm damage is over-estimated. They aren't super-weapons. Yes, they can kill in one hit. So can a dagger, and that only does 1d4. I've seen videos of axe and sword attacks against test dummies. Someone with access to an A&E hospital may survive a bullet wound, albeit crippled. Axes and swords pretty much wrecked the test dummy. Even with the best modern A&E ward, you aren't going to have a hope after an axe has had its way with you.

otoh, their energy is all concentrated in a single point, which gives a tremendous penetrative power.

So, how would I do them?

* Range increment and reload times vary from 80 ft and 3 full actions for the earliest handgonnes to 150+ feet and a move action for a bolt-action reload mechanism rifle. Note that despite the theoretical ranges a perfectly-stabilised rifle can achieve, if a human is holding it, it ain't perfectly stabilised. There's mechanical range, and there's how well the guy can point it.
* It's a touch attack, unless the target has modern ballistic-weave armours. Dex bonuses to AC apply normally.
* Damage would typically be 2d6 for a longarm, 2d4 for a pistol.
* Shotguns, when you get round to them, are NOT area-effect weapons. The typical dispersion diameter is about 6 inches at 60 feet range. I'd give them more damage, based on generally having a larger calibre, but they attack against AC normally (ie. not a touch attack), since they tend to have much lower muzzle velocities.

Zeta Kai
2009-05-09, 12:40 PM
The D20 Modern SRD covers weapons adequately in the Equipment section (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/modern/smack/weapons.html). It has good rules for firearms, as well as many, many specific weapon examples. For more such weapons in a true D&D systems, you can find much more in my Resident Evil D20.

Spiryt
2009-05-09, 12:45 PM
Actually, full plate mail will not stop a bullet in any way, shape or form, except from coming out the other end. This causes it to bounce back while inside the armor, hitting the guy essentially twice. Historic records have shown that with a musket against an armored knight this can happen up to 4 times, turning him into swiss cheese. In my humble opinion, bullets should be touch attacks

This is very untrue. Plate armour can, and will stop a bullet, of course all depending on mass, velocity, shape of the bullet and other things.

Armors of XVI century were specifically designed to protect against improving firearms. (deflect and/or be hard to penetrate) They were often made thicker and, paradoxically, softer to absorb bullets impact better. Newly made breasplates were being shot at from pistols, just to check if they were made right.

Generally, lesser minion put it right
Put enough metal in the way of a bullet and you can stop it/QUOTE]

Steel is resilinet material and it does stop things, and armor wasn't just piece of steel, it was piece of steel develpoed and made to be hard to penetrate. Simple example (http://www.musketeer.ch/blackpowder/handgonne.html). Bullets penetrate 2 mm steel, but if powder load is smaller they're cease to do so.
Another example (http://www.kryminalistyka.fr.pl/praktyka_helm.php) - various modern bullets against 1,4mm helmet, not really meant to deal with bullets. As you can see lighter/slower bullets aren't too good at penetrating it.

So to be brief, surely, no armor (safe some modern kevlar/ceramic technology) can stand to the modern rifle/musket bullet with 2000 + Joules of energy from short range, but to say that armor doesn't protect against bullets at all is a mistake.

Add magic/fantasy armors to equation and you will see that making firearms touch attack is not very good idea.

[QUOTE=Ashtagon;6083341]Commentary first...
* Bullets are fast, but on a human scale of reaction times, they are the same speed as an arrow. No reason to penalise high-Dex targets.


Not really. Bullets are generally faster than 250 m/s, even big, round early ones, and that's probably indeed too fast for human to react.

Arrows from traditional bows extremaly rarely go faster than 100 m/s and that's for very light, flight arrows shoot from very strong, fast and efficient bows.

Standard velocity for battle arrow from longbow would be generally around 50 - 60 m/s, and it will drop at least to 75% of that after 50 meters.
So for human standing at 50 meters, there's more than second to react.

Adding the fact that dexterity is used to make one hard to hit by a lot of movement etc, not necessarily actual dodging, I agree that making anything
"Dex ignore" in D&D doesn't have sense.

All in all those rules are way to complex. In my humble opinion, early fireamrs should have huge damage per shot compared to bows, slow reload time and poor range.

More modern ones are different story.

Kiren
2009-05-09, 09:55 PM
You can't outrun a bullet, you can outrun the trigger finger.

Gorgondantess
2009-05-09, 10:05 PM
This is very untrue. Plate armour can, and will stop a bullet, of course all depending on mass, velocity, shape of the bullet and other things.

Armors of XVI century were specifically designed to protect against improving firearms. (deflect and/or be hard to penetrate) They were often made thicker and, paradoxically, softer to absorb bullets impact better. Newly made breasplates were being shot at from pistols, just to check if they were made right.

Generally, lesser minion put it right [QUOTE]Put enough metal in the way of a bullet and you can stop it/QUOTE]

Steel is resilinet material and it does stop things, and armor wasn't just piece of steel, it was piece of steel develpoed and made to be hard to penetrate. Simple example (http://www.musketeer.ch/blackpowder/handgonne.html). Bullets penetrate 2 mm steel, but if powder load is smaller they're cease to do so.
Another example (http://www.kryminalistyka.fr.pl/praktyka_helm.php) - various modern bullets against 1,4mm helmet, not really meant to deal with bullets. As you can see lighter/slower bullets aren't too good at penetrating it.

So to be brief, surely, no armor (safe some modern kevlar/ceramic technology) can stand to the modern rifle/musket bullet with 2000 + Joules of energy from short range, but to say that armor doesn't protect against bullets at all is a mistake.

Add magic/fantasy armors to equation and you will see that making firearms touch attack is not very good idea.


Well... I can't specifically cite the historical document, coz it's not online, but what I said is true. Against plate mail, bullets are extremely effective, even more so than against people without plate mail. I have seen with my own two eyes a well kept breatplate with a hole in the center, and full of lumps from when the bullet bounced around. (Ok, it might have been a replica- I'm iffy on that fact- but I highly doubt anyone would go so far as to recreate a breastplate that isn't historically accurate.)
The handgonne is an extremely archaic weapon, weaker even than an arquebus. I would be able to accept it couldn't penetrate armor very well.
In the second source cited, I can't read any of it, whatever language it's in, but the helmet shown seems to be a rather modern device, and its contours could deflect bullets readily. Plate mail, with its relatively flat surface, could not as well.
Yes, put enough metal in the way of a bullet and you can stop it, but plate mail is made out of very thin metal so as to not be incredibly encumbering. Against a flintlock or more modern weapon, it doesn't stand a chance. Sure, it might be enough to credit 2 or 3 AC rather than the standard 8, but that's unnecessary bookkeeping.
Furthermore, why do you think 16th and 17th century firearms were used widely, if not that? They were slow, noisy, inaccurate and expensive. But they could take an armored knight out- normally an incredibly potent opponent- quite easily.

Hawriel
2009-05-09, 11:47 PM
I assume that you are talking about smooth bore mussle loaded black poweder weapons.

Field plate can stop a musket ball. It seems that most peaple here think all bullets are the same. A musket ball is a soft ball of lead. It does not penatrate so much as smash through. The plated steel in field plate is made to withstand (through strength of meterial and deflection) picks, lances, spears, arrows, hammers, mattocks, and more. These weapons are made from hard steel desined to penetrate armor. Soft lead balls are not what is needed to penatrate steel armor. They work great on unarmored targets however. In addition to being a lead ball the mussle vilosity is low. Low mussle vilosity doesnt help with penetrating steel.

All fire arms should have a low range increment. These are smooth bor weapons in which the musket ball is alot smaller in diamiter of the barrel. Their is no tight fit because, one there is no rifling to engage, and two black powerder is dirty. The barrel will be to fowled after a handfull of shots for a tight fitting ball to be rammed down it. This all equals bad accuacy at range. A musket was really only accuate under 50 yards. Its one of the big reasons they where used in close formations with volley fire.

Lesser minion
Your totaly wrong about pistols not being used in melee. This happened all the time. Pistols where made to be used as clubs after the ONE shot was fired. Also if your using a pistol to shoot some one they are very close already. Pistols often had metal caps on the but of the handle for reinforcment. Remember the main component of the weapon is one large piece of wood. Not only can you beat some ones skull in with a pistol but the handle can be used to trap an apponents weapon. Similar to how a hatchet or tomahawk. U.S. marines often used a tomahawk and sword combination.

I recomend using short ranges, 10 for a pistol and 20 for a musket. Add an accumulitive -1 to hit for every range increment passed point blank. That is in addition to existing range mods.

For damage I use 2d6 as standard for pistols and 2d8 for muskets. x3 crit. For basic weapon damage this is very high.

For accurate reload times and game playability.
weapon---------------rounds
Flint lock pistols.............4
percusion cap pistol........3
flint lock musket.............5
percusion cap musket......4

with rapped reload firearm: -1 round loading time.
with paiper cartriges -1 round reload

A paiper cartrige as a small roll of paiper with the right amount of powder, and wadding. they can also have a ball.

Harperfan7
2009-05-10, 02:08 AM
Pathfinder has a cool rule for fire arms called exploding dice. If you roll a six on damage (assuming damage is d6) you reroll, if the reroll is a six, roll again. Keep doing so until you don't roll a six. This represents how bullets can hit you doing very little damage or completely wreck your ****.

Spiryt
2009-05-10, 03:57 AM
Well... I can't specifically cite the historical document, coz it's not online, but what I said is true. Against plate mail, bullets are extremely effective, even more so than against people without plate mail. I have seen with my own two eyes a well kept breatplate with a hole in the center, and full of lumps from when the bullet bounced around. (Ok, it might have been a replica- I'm iffy on that fact- but I highly doubt anyone would go so far as to recreate a breastplate that isn't historically accurate.)

Quick google search reveal nice example of breastplate which did it's job (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/71/Armor_in_Muzeum_Zagłębia_01.JPG).

About recreation- you would be surprised how many people lay butted mail on a tree stump, cut it with a sword and claim that test was accurate.



The handgonne is an extremely archaic weapon, weaker even than an arquebus. I would be able to accept it couldn't penetrate armor very well.
In the second source cited, I can't read any of it, whatever language it's in, but the helmet shown seems to be a rather modern device, and its contours could deflect bullets readily. Plate mail, with its relatively flat surface, could not as well.

No, plate armours weren't any more flat than this helmet :smallconfused:


Yes, put enough metal in the way of a bullet and you can stop it, but plate mail is made out of very thin metal so as to not be incredibly encumbering. Against a flintlock or more modern weapon, it doesn't stand a chance. Sure, it might be enough to credit 2 or 3 AC rather than the standard 8, but that's unnecessary bookkeeping.
Actually, some XVI century armours were as thick as 8mm in some places, and weren't incredibly encumbering.

Considering that no weapons have any anti armour modifiers in D&D, and dagger slash is as good against armour as picks and flails any attempt to make something like that with guns may be considered unnecessary bookkeping.

I would just give rifled and modern guns some nice flat bonus to attack - as they're hard to avoid and indeed good at penetrating defences.




Furthermore, why do you think 16th and 17th century firearms were used widely, if not that? They were slow, noisy, inaccurate and expensive. But they could take an armored knight out- normally an incredibly potent opponent- quite easily.

Wide use of guns is the matter of changing tactics, army structure, economy. Is the really material for many threads.

Yes - firearms potential to overcome personal armour was one of the reasons why it was becoming more and more popular weapon.

But claiming that armour offers no protection against it is wrong.

imp_fireball
2009-05-10, 04:38 AM
1. The D&D combat rules are by necessity extremely abstract. You do not need anywhere near this many rules.
2. A more agile target is harder to hit. There is no way that 50% of a character's dodge bonuses derive from being able to see an arrow and move out of the way. It also makes firearms far more accurate than they should be.
3. While a firearm penetrates metal pretty well, you should probably just give a simple bonus to hit. Put enough metal in the way of a bullet and you can stop it. Even non-ballistic armours can still stop a bullet from doing too much damage. Also, many ballistic vests still provide a measure of protection against stabbing or piercing attacks.
4. Repeating firearms should be reloaded as a free action while there are rounds left in the weapon.They are no harder to reload than a repeating crossbow.
5. Firing a shot takes enough concentration to be a standard action.
6. Firing a firearm while prone is fine. You don't need any more rules than that.
7. Pistols should not get any bonuses in melee whatsoever. They don't even give a melee advantage over bare hands.


1. Meh. It's seems more fun that way.

2. I might change it around. Although the idea of avoiding before the opponent can pull the trigger is more of the monk's thing, where WIS applies to AC.

3. Meh, maybe. But only if the enemy has armor/natural armor related bonuses. I thought halving it was a good idea at the time. AP rounds would provide a small bonus based on the material of the armor/natural armor or damage reduction - in fact AP rounds are the only thing that would actually bypass damage reduction (aside from very powerful firearms, like gauss), I was thinking.

Bulletproofing is also quite important by the way, since there's a significant difference. Even with halved armor, there's still somewhat of a bonus applicable against firearms. Modern vests designed to protect against bullets also use their AC bonus against melee attacks (I never mentioned that that was halved, did I? Maybe I did...).

4. I never said they shouldn't be. The thing is, if there's no rounds in the chamber, then they've gotta be replaced by a new magazine. I don't think listing different magazine types is necessary, that's more of a GM discretion sort of thing.

5. Hardly. Drawing a bow string is enough effort that it's a standard action, but not a fire arm. Early fire arms take long enough to reload that they sort of balance with bows though (high damage but slow and short range, etc.).

6. Yah, I got a little muddled with the rules there. I'll remove the thing involving cover. I think I was afraid people would exclude any bonuses provided by cover for some reason at the time. Another thing I wanted to include was when soldiers intentionally lay down and fire that way, it doesn't really restrict their ability to shoot (unless the same applies to intentional prone shooting with crossbows and shurikens).

7. Shooting adjacent targets with a gun that fits in your hand is easier than stringing a bow. It's also a move action, although I'd argue that the same should apply to the hand crossbow. :P

Ah well. As for hitting a target with a pistol in melee (not shooting), that would be similar to using a small club or a gauntlet.

A shotgun would also target the space of the target that the character aims for (not the same as an automatic weapon), so anything else within that space can also be affected, but has a higher AC as partial cover or miss chance as partial concealment (or can halve damage if it has evasion). Double barreled shotgun might be harder to avoid, quite simply.

If I wanted to get really funky, I could make it so that helpless creatures can get struck by ricochets, or bullets that pass through other targets. o.0


There's no particular justification for setting some personal firearms as Simple, and others at a different level. They all use pretty much the same "point and click" interface

In all seriousness, it really depends on the setting. Some firearms are more common then others, and so it might be more or less hinted by the GM that one firearm is more available in a setting than another - and so when it all comes down to protecting one self, the weapon might be simple if its common enough. In that, it's essential that any class know how to use it, basically, while fighters use the stuff that's more military.

If a firearm is expensive though, then it's probably martial or exotic (of course, for some races, it might also be automatically available as a proficiency).


These, in my humble opinion, belong in d20 modern/future.

I'm making an effort to merge the settings with regular D&D, to open things up a little. As it stands, modern and future can't converse with the concepts apparent in regular D&D which is a little stubborn, no?

imp_fireball
2009-05-10, 05:50 AM
I updated the OP with some sample fire arms, and other stuff.

I didn't change anything anyone mentioned though, since I haven't got the time right now (it's actually 4:00am where I live o.0).

Spiryt
2009-05-10, 06:26 AM
Is this 3.5 edition?

If so, why you resigned from standard system of 10 range increments?

It will fit firearms quite well, possibly even better than it fits bows.

The one you're proposing is complicated and not very good.

300ft max range of AK 47 is silly. The 7.62 one is said to be moderately accurate at 1300 feet, and shooted at 45 degrees from the ground it probably lands about 1.5 kilometers away.

So even in collusive game rules this range should be greater.

Dagren
2009-05-10, 06:27 AM
I was thinking about rules for firearms in D&D recently, maybe someone would be kind enough to give me some feedback? :smallsmile:

I started out with the suggested stats in the DMG, but wasn't that pleased with them. (Standard action to reload a musket? What?) They come of as basically crossbows with an improved damage dice. So, I thought that I would make it require a minute to reload (halved with the Rapid Reload feat). This makes them kind of a poor weapon, so I decided to boost their damage to 2d10 (Musket) or 2d8 (pistol). Also, I think reducing all AC bonuses by 2, be they armour (bullets can punch through armour, though not negate it completely), dodge (speed makes bullets harder, if not impossible, to dodge), deflection (much faster than a sword, hence harder to deflect), or whatever. I prefer this to giving them an attack bonus, because they shouldn't be more accurate on an unarmoured target. Another thought I had was simply halving all AC bonuses, which is more powerful (esp. at higher levels), but reduces bookkeeping since you can just knock 10 off AC, halve it, then add it back on without worrying about different bonuses.

Please note that I have read the thread, but not really considered it in my reply, this being my own take on primitive firearms in D&D, not a response to the thread. (I didn't want to start a new thread while this one was active, though) I hope this doesn't upset anyone.

imp_fireball
2009-05-10, 06:31 AM
Is this 3.5 edition?

If so, why you resigned from standard system of 10 range increments?

It will fit firearms quite well, possibly even better than it fits bows.

The one you're proposing is complicated and not very good.

300ft max range of AK 47 is silly. The 7.62 one is said to be moderately accurate at 1300 feet, and shooted at 45 degrees from the ground it probably lands about 1.5 kilometers away.

So even in collusive game rules this range should be greater.

I wasn't actually all that aware of range increments. Could you clarify for me? I've got the PHB in a pdf file, but I'm too tired to sift through it right now... >_>

And yah, it is sort of silly that I made the Ak47 such a low range. :P

Parabollic shooting is a house rule though. If shot over a wall and without line of sight (assuming it hits the correct space), I'd rule that the target has total concealment. The same GM could rule the same for ranged touch attack spells and such.

'Lobbing' a shot at a target that you can see probably gives it some kind of penalty... maybe -4 since hardly any of that depends on actual aim but rather estimation. Lobbing also might give you greater range when throwing - though, it could also be considered stretching the range increments or even assumed at long range.

Dagren
2009-05-10, 06:36 AM
I wasn't actually all that aware of range increments. Could you clarify for me? I've got the PHB in a pdf file, but I'm too tired to sift through it right now... >_>From memory, you take a -2 to hit per range increment, so a 100' increment means that 10'-100' = no penalty, 100'-200' means -2, 200'-300' means -4, etc. That's from memory though, so I may be wrong.

Spiryt
2009-05-10, 06:38 AM
I wasn't actually all that aware of range increments. Could you clarify for me? I've got the PHB in a pdf file, but I'm too tired to sift through it right now... >_>

And yah, it is sort of silly that I made the Ak47 such a low range. :P

Parabollic shooting is a house rule though. If shot over a wall and without line of sight (assuming it hits the correct space), I'd rule that the target has total concealment.
'Lobbing' a shot at a target that you can see probably gives it some kind of penalty... maybe -4 since hardly any of that depends on actual aim but rather estimation. Lobbing also might give you greater range when throwing - though, it could also be considered stretching the range increments or even assumed at long range.

Range increments (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#rangeIncrement).

So longbow has maximum range of 1000 feet, and if you are shooting at target that's 901 - 1000 feet away, you suffer - 18 penalty to attacks.

Makes sense for firearms too.

If you want your guns differ more, you can give them some individual bonus ruls like "accurate at long distances".

And it's no point of complicating parabolic shooting. Every shot is parabolic to some degree and it's naturally implemented in those range penalties.

Nobody in WotC was ever thinking that the 1000 feet range of a bow is anything else than a big lobb ( I hope).

And it doesn't have to be an estimation beacuse 95 % of rifles from 1800 + have sights that can be calibrated to a proper distance.

V Typo

Dagren
2009-05-10, 06:41 AM
Range increments (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#rangeIncrement).

So longbow has maximum range of 1000 feet, and if you are shooting at target that's 901 - 1000 feet away, you suffer - 19 penalty to attacks.That would be -18.

imp_fireball
2009-05-10, 06:48 AM
Much appreciated, guys.

Is their a mechanic for scopes and sights abounding? Could we work one out?

Attacking with an Ak-47 using a scope in ranges excess of 2000 feet is still likely to impose some kind of penalty, due to the likelihood that the bullet won't fall where the shooter is sighting so precisely.

I'd also probably make sighting and shooting a standard action, with scoping a full round without 5ft. steps (although it can still involve multiple attack actions but only on the same or targets 'close' to the one that was first attacked that round). Sniping would also likely involve a lot of readied actions - even if it only means 'ready action to shoot on next round'.

EDIT: I added my iteration of the handgonne to the list of sample weapons along with the 'early chemical firearm' characteristic.

Someone should really run a D&D campaign with firearms that requires a lot of tactical action.

I don't wanna be arrogant and demand that they use my rules though. :smallwink:

Ashtagon
2009-05-10, 07:32 AM
Really, I can't help thinking that you should just go buy yourself a copy of d20 Past, the WotC supplement for d20 Modern. The firearms supplemental rules are quite well-written.

imp_fireball
2009-05-10, 07:57 AM
Strangely, D20 past sounds a heck of a lot like D&D. I wonder why. :smalleek:

lesser_minion
2009-05-10, 08:55 AM
Lesser minion
Your totaly wrong about pistols not being used in melee. This happened all the time. Pistols where made to be used as clubs after the ONE shot was fired. Also if your using a pistol to shoot some one they are very close already. Pistols often had metal caps on the but of the handle for reinforcment. Remember the main component of the weapon is one large piece of wood. Not only can you beat some ones skull in with a pistol but the handle can be used to trap an apponents weapon. Similar to how a hatchet or tomahawk. U.S. marines often used a tomahawk and sword combination.

It's generally considered good practice not to stand right next to an opponent while shooting them, even if you're using a pistol - there is a very good chance that the target will be able to defend himself (e.g. by knocking the weapon away). Even threatening a target with a gun placed right against their skin is a bad move.

You are right that a pistol is not going to be used from more than about 20m because nobody can actually hit a target beyond that range (a pistol has little merit over any other firearm beyond light weight and portability - it's difficult to use and lacks stopping power), however, this does not mean that they should be treated as a melee weapon, whatever Warhammer thinks.

At best, you might want to consider allowing a character to do something like use Shot on the Run to get an extra attack at a penalty during a charge.

As for using the weapon as a club - I have no problem whatsoever with that. My point is that shooting someone in melee with a pistol is actually very difficult and shouldn't be able to get around AoOs from people armed with melee weapons.

As for scopes and sights:

Iron sights work best at short ranges - possibly a +2 to hit in the first range increment for SMGs and rifles. I'd probably offer a doubled range increment to optical sights.

Sniper rifles are always masterwork without exception.

imp_fireball
2009-05-10, 09:13 AM
I guess you make a fair case. I'll change that later on. If it doesn't mean making a concentration check opposed by the enemy's to-hit, then I guess (for the sake of hollywood), fire arm attacks at literally point blank only apply during grapples (where the strong guy is beating the damsel in distress).

Also, there's another feat (besides shot on the run) called 'run and gun' that I invented. It's pretty powerful and among other things it allows people to make charge attacks with ranged weapons against the target they charge.

The confusing part is that they don't have to end the charge in a space adjacent to creature they charged and they still get a bonus for charging.

lesser_minion
2009-05-10, 11:56 AM
Allowing it to work during grapples could work pretty well I guess - you would probably have to explicitly state that that's the case, as I don't think it's explicit in the grapple rules, but that could be quite interesting.

There is the oddity of having to grab an opponent to use a pistol on them, but if all it gets around is the AoO, that could work pretty well.

Knaight
2009-05-10, 12:16 PM
Pathfinder has a cool rule for fire arms called exploding dice. If you roll a six on damage (assuming damage is d6) you reroll, if the reroll is a six, roll again. Keep doing so until you don't roll a six. This represents how bullets can hit you doing very little damage or completely wreck your ****.

So can arrows, sword thrusts, spear thrusts, sling rocks, etc. Bullets are not unique in this regard.

Spiryt
2009-05-10, 12:24 PM
So can arrows, sword thrusts, spear thrusts, sling rocks, etc. Bullets are not unique in this regard.

If anything, I would rule that if bullet rolls 1 on damage, you reroll.

Sure, there are abrasions, but if the bullet (which has fixed velocity) hits you somewhere in the body it's generally bound to do some serious damage.

On the other hand sword cut can be laceration if botched cut is performed, or cutting in half when the strike is strong and true.

Besides, system like that causes one effect that certainly is rather conterintuitive - the smaller the damage dice, the higher damage is.

Hawriel
2009-05-12, 02:32 AM
It's generally considered good practice not to stand right next to an opponent while shooting them, even if you're using a pistol - there is a very good chance that the target will be able to defend himself (e.g. by knocking the weapon away). Even threatening a target with a gun placed right against their skin is a bad move.

Yes I can see whare you would believe this. After watching alot of action movies. Pistols are close quarter weapons. No your not going to just knocking the pistol away. Maybe if your Steven Sigal you would expect that. You try to move in to knock a gun away, you will get shot. Alot of fights are in very close quarters. Boarding actions, in buildings, dence forest, and city steets. These kinds of places will have engangments with in 10 feet.


You are right that a pistol is not going to be used from more than about 20m because nobody can actually hit a target beyond that range (a pistol has little merit over any other firearm beyond light weight and portability - it's difficult to use and lacks stopping power), however, this does not mean that they should be treated as a melee weapon, whatever Warhammer thinks.

Again fals. Pistols have alot of stopping power. Black powder pistols use the same ammunition as the larger muskets. These can be up to .52 caliber balls. Thats big. It will drop you. So would a modern 9mm, .38 and .45 caliber round. Again its a soft lead ball if it hits any thing hard like bone, a buckle or button it will mishapen and mushroom. As for the modern rounds they are made to mushroom on impact. One of the reasons why the Colt 1911 was so loved by the U.S. military was its stopping power.

No they are not hard to use. Guns are very idiot friendly. Just point and fire. Thats it. As for melee no a modern pistol and not optimal as a melee weapon. A black powder pistol is. They have a thick handle with a balbus butt. The handing exteded most the length of the barrel. The barrel actualy rested inside the wood. A flint lock pistol is no less a valid melee weapon than a club. I like how you use examples seen in action movies to disprove the usefulness of pistols. Then imply that I think warhammer is realistic.

At best, you might want to consider allowing a character to do something like use Shot on the Run to get an extra attack at a penalty during a charge.


As for using the weapon as a club - I have no problem whatsoever with that. My point is that shooting someone in melee with a pistol is actually very difficult and shouldn't be able to get around AoOs from people armed with melee weapons.

If you have no problem with using a pistol as a club, why did you naysay me for saying that exact thing? :smallconfused: I also never said a pistol should be easily fired at an apponent who your directly in hand to hand with. Or as a cheep way to get around an AoO. If anything a person with a pistol loaded postol should get to use it as their AoO attack when some one moves into their threated space or charges them. However for game balance I would say that should reqier a feat to do that.

As for scopes they shouldnt give a bonus to hit. They should push back range penalties. Iron sights ares standard on modern fire arms and would already be reflected in the weapons standard range increments.

lesser_minion
2009-05-12, 03:38 AM
Yes I can see whare you would believe this. After watching alot of action movies. Pistols are close quarter weapons. No your not going to just knocking the pistol away. Maybe if your Steven Sigal you would expect that. You try to move in to knock a gun away, you will get shot. Alot of fights are in very close quarters. Boarding actions, in buildings, dence forest, and city steets. These kinds of places will have engangments with in 10 feet.


My impression was that:

Unarmed combat training concentrates on techniques used to disarm ranged attackers who get too close. An ordinary human might survive the "Dodge this" scenes similar to The Matrix one. In D&D terms, this may correspond to the ability to initiate a grapple as an attack of opportunity.
Police and criminals generally do not receive this training. They would not be able to make attacks of opportunity unarmed, so whether or not a pistol shot provokes or gains benefits against an AoO would be irrelevant.
Most people trained to use a pistol are trained to use the weapon in either hand, or two-handed, but two-handed is preferred.
At close range when someone is trying to kill you, panic sets in. There is certainly every possibility of an armed individual not firing, or even missing, especially if they lack combat training.
In order to maintain competence, a pistol requires exceptional amounts of practice - equivalent to the time a soldier would spend on his primary weapon or more. The weapon is very different to the SMGs, assault rifles and LMGs that a soldier would be most comfortable with (and would be martial weapons from a D&D perspective).
A 9mm round, or even weapons ranging up to a .44 magnum round, will only stop an opponent if it strikes the head, spinal column or leg (assuming a fracture), even if it causes a fatal injury. Opponents can often continue a fight after suffering a fatal injury or one that requires medical attention.


You are right about engagements commonly taking place at a range of about 7ft - in these cases, it is also reasonable to assume that most shots fired that hit will also strike vital locations. Note that these are generally not military actions. In any event, 7ft range would, in D&D, translate to outside of melee range.

Herobizkit
2009-05-15, 05:21 PM
If I wanted to get really funky, I could make it so that helpless creatures can get struck by ricochets, or bullets that pass through other targets. o.0Back when I used to play GURPS, I remember a firearm mechanic called blowthrough; in short, if you exceeded a certain amount of damage with your shot, the body would not stop the bullet and it would "blow through" behind it. This is to simulate the "through-and-through" that lately seems to be on all the CSI shows a lot.

In D&D terms, you could do a couple of things:

a) If a player rolls max damage on his shot, the bullet passes through the target and continues on to (whatever) range increment, or until it hits another target.

b) Steal the old FR 2e mechanic for firearms: If a PC rolls max damage on the die, he then rolls again and adds the result to the total. If he rolls max again this continues until max damage is not rolled. This can simulate how deadly firearms can be.

c) give guns a crit rate of 18-20. :)

imp_fireball
2009-05-15, 10:39 PM
I'd also include 'aimed' or 'focused' shots, which might up the crit rate for the cost of a standard action instead of a move. For guns that already need a standard action to shoot (pump action shotguns, ie.), this might require a full action (effectively, one step higher each time) and cannot be done with automatic weapons (except maybe those that are attuned to be very accurate).

To accommodate for typical tropes, there would be new feats such as 'undead hunter', which allows you to critical strike undead. Of course, for sci-fi type zombies, they might not be applicable to critical strikes - instead requiring a coup de grace (aimed for the head). There'd be feats that associate making coup de graces at range, not necessarily quickly (requires devotion to a full action) but can allow for multiple coup de graces on the same target (multi-head shot).

You could even have firearm warblades (gunkata stance is go)! But yah, I'll leave that to the creativity of others.
--------

Here's some rule amendments that I'm looking at

- You can make attack of opportunities against opponents with a firearm that requires only a move action to shoot at point blank range (30ft.), but only to do with anything that don't involve movement between spaces or ranged attacks.
- Variant of this rule: Opposed DEX checks can be made when making AoOs against those who perform ranged attacks against you at within point blank range radius. The winner determines who is the first to attack. In this special circumstance, AoOs can even provoke AoOs however any sort of an AoO after the first made against the same target does not provoke DEX checks between the two if a DEX check for this sort of circumstance has already been made. Ranged AoOs after the first incur wild fire penalties if they involve attacks made against multiple targets.

I find that the rule variant could work pretty well in the situation of a mexican stand off between two cowboys. The faster dude makes the first attack, plain and simple, but the other guy can always avoid and dramatically place his shot (typical in a lot of western action movies).

Even then, if the faster dude has a lot of hp, it could be a shock to the audience that he takes a bullet, smiles a bloody grin and then kills the other guy.

Also, if both guys have combat reflexes, they both end up wasting each other in six seconds with multiple shots. :smallbiggrin:

- Monks have trouble deflecting bullets with the deflect arrows feat. Deflecting a bullet is like deflecting an arrow one size larger.

- Bullets no longer cut DEX or dodge bonuses to touch/total AC in half.

- AoOs are incurred as normal when an attack is made with a fire arm while an adjacent opponent threatens the character making such an attack.

- Clarification: Two weapon fighting allows two attacks with each light sized fire arm (since both attacks are move actions). Rapid shot only allows one additional attack (according to SRD) however. Double tap (which allows tapping with each attack), combined with two weapon fighting and rapid shot is truly lethal given enough feats.

At GM discretion, a STR check may need to be made to not be penalized due to the recoil incurred however (these rules don't explicitly necessitate it though).
--------------

All of this will be added to the firearm rules at some point in the future.

If I forgot anything, feel free to remind me.

lesser_minion
2009-05-16, 05:21 AM
Regarding the whole pistols as a move action thing:

Professional soldiers in 1914 were able to achieve over 20 aimed shots per minute. If we put them at 3rd level and take Rapid Shot, Point-Blank Shot and Precise Shot, that's a reasonable approximation.

Using the existing mechanics, and allowing a firer to double-tap with every attack (this is about the fastest practical fire rate for a normal individual), you could get 50 rounds per minute, maybe. This equates to four shots per round. A character with multiple attacks is probably strong enough that we can ignore the fact that this approximation breaks down at high levels.

A typical GPMG has a practical fire rate of four times that (about 20 shots per round or 200rpm is reasonable) with a cyclic fire rate of about 1000 or more RPM.

If you're allowing firers to shoot as a move action, then TWF, then I think you would be giving them way too many shots, especially as this can be achieved at 3rd level.

You might be able to justify "fire as a move action" over "use rapid shot" if you rule that the weapon is exotic (pistols are very difficult to use, and there is a clear mechanical benefit to using them), however.

Ranged attacks of opportunity should always require a feat.

imp_fireball
2009-05-17, 05:46 PM
All the evidence you provide states that my approximation of shooting being a move action for pistols is pretty much quite accurate. Anything more would be 'wild fire', which should probably have even more of a penalty than -2 per attack (some other guy made wild firing -4 per attack). The system of eight shots in one round is completely silly (I can imagine a martial arts guy using knives grappling and stabbing 8 times in a round, why shouldn't they be allowed to do that?).

Also, third level is actually pretty high for a soldier. It's compareable to an olympic athlete. For comparison, if a gymnast has 14 DEX (reasonable) and 4 ranks in tumble then that's +6 to tumble. If they're also human, then they get one feat to burn on skill: focus tumble and another for something unrelated. At second level they get a synergy bonus to tumble for investing 5 ranks in jump (and vice versa). They could have a total of +12 to tumble.

In a campaign with a strong focus on athletics, they could probably tumble (houserule) their base speed as a swift action (DC 30) 15% of the time, which is quite insane. Not to mention, they haven't completely devoted themselves to tumbling (they've got one extra feat slot). Assuming they have 8 STR, they also have a +6 to jump (jump isn't even their focus, only used for mounting) and a +6 to balance (for control). They could acquire all of the necessary skills (balance, jump, tumble) by taking two levels in expert.

Mind you, PCs are often so high level because of all the crap they do. They're super heros by 6th level.
------

Finally, ranged attacks of opportunity with a pistol suggests that guns are dangerous and sort of demand that a tactical approach be made (who's going to string a bow in front of a guy who can pull a trigger anyway?).

Not to mention only one can usually be made in a round, so people with guns are easy to overwhelm anyway (assuming low level of course).

lesser_minion
2009-05-17, 07:02 PM
Well, the soldiers in question were professional, extremely well-trained and I would say at least equal to a modern athlete, so 3rd level seems like a reasonable approximation. A 1st-level soldier would likely be a conscript. A trained, professional soldier should probably be taken as either 2nd or 3rd level, with 5th level reserved for the most elite soldiers.

My conclusion was that a reasonable fire rate for a trained character might be up to three or four shots per round at low levels using a pistol, which might justify allowing them to be used as exotic weapons which can be fired an extra time per round as part of a full attack (plus a third attack from rapid shot). A move action would break a pretty fundamental rule of the game (except in 4e, where it would be absolutely fine).

That also reinforces the 'heroic' portrayal the weapon receives in films pretty nicely, while still offering a nod to realism.

Finally, with respect to attacks of opportunity, you're still underestimating the amount of effort that it takes to fire a weapon of any type - whatever the Call of Cthulhu RPG thinks, it takes time to aim a shot, except at extremely short ranges (up to about 10ft).

Dagren
2009-05-17, 07:09 PM
Question: Why should a gun get a ranged AoO when a crossbow doesn't?

Draco Ignifer
2009-05-17, 09:33 PM
I may be wrong about this, and definitely don't have a source to back it up, but if I recall correctly, longbows were actually deadlier and better at penetrating than earlier pistols. The problem, of course, is that it took a ton of time to actually learn to use them... in actuality, longbow would be the exotic one, and pistol the martial one.

Regardless, I'd say exact same statistics as a longbow... it's all an abstraction, and there's no reason why you should make one weapon so specialized when it's really not that much better. If you want to be accurate, replace longbows with firearms, give them a malfunction chance (on a 2-5, the shot is wasted, on a 1, it needs to be repaired before the next shot) or lower range, and make longbows exotic.

Ashtagon
2009-05-18, 01:41 AM
So I decided to sanity-check this thread with what GURPS says the rof of a gun is. GURPS (in their 3e Vehicles book) has a remarkably comprehensive weapons design segment for guns from early gunpowder through to modern, electromnag and gravitic technology. It's... thorough.

TL3 - 1400-1700
TL4 - 1700-1800
TL5 - 1800-1900
TL6 - 1900-1950 (ww1 and ww2)
TL7 - 1950-2000-ish

Most RW modern technology is TL7, with a few cutting-edge TL8 devices around. Naturally, real science has progressed far faster than they originally expected when they wrote the system, data storage being one such area. The original HDD I owned holds about 1/8250 what my computer's current HDD does. The world's first ever HDD held 4.5 megabytes (about 3 floppy disks), and was the size of a large fridge.

In all cases, numbers below refer to weapons with a 10 mm calibre with "standard" power, 6 barrels where that is relevant, and basic training (because I don't need to crack open a spreadsheet for that). "rpm" means rounds per minute.

Numbers assume the weapon does not need to take time out to reload for the faster rates. ML and BL weapons listings include the reload time. Divide numbers by 10 to get shots per D&D round.

TL3 muzzle loaders: 2/3 rpm (14 full-round actions to reload)
TL4 muzzle loader: 1 rpm (9 full-round actions to reload)
TL5 muzzle loader: 3 rpm (2 full-round actions to reload)
TL6+ muzzle loader: 7.5 rpm (DM call on move or full-round action to reload)

TL3 breech loaders: 1.5 rpm (6 full-round actions to reload)
TL4 breech loader: 3 rpm (2 full-round actions to reload)
TL5 breech loader: 12 rpm (move action to reload)
TL6+ breech loader: 20 rpm (not sure)

TL5 revolver (single action): 60 rpm
TL6 revolver (double action): 180 rpm.

TL6+ bolt/lever/pump action: 30 rpm (60 rpm if box magazine)

TL5+ mechanical Gatling: 360 rpm.

"slow" autoloader: 60 rpm (optimised for cannon)
"fast" autoloader: 180 rpm
"light" automatic: 960 rpm
"heavy" automatic: 1200 rpm (optimised for cannon)
electric gatling: 6000 rpm (optimised for cannon)

Berserk Monk
2009-05-18, 02:40 AM
Some elementals have "fire arms." :smallbiggrin:

Zeful
2009-05-18, 02:42 AM
I may be wrong about this, and definitely don't have a source to back it up, but if I recall correctly, longbows were actually deadlier and better at penetrating than earlier pistols. The problem, of course, is that it took a ton of time to actually learn to use them... in actuality, longbow would be the exotic one, and pistol the martial one.

Regardless, I'd say exact same statistics as a longbow... it's all an abstraction, and there's no reason why you should make one weapon so specialized when it's really not that much better. If you want to be accurate, replace longbows with firearms, give them a malfunction chance (on a 2-5, the shot is wasted, on a 1, it needs to be repaired before the next shot) or lower range, and make longbows exotic.

The first guns sucked. Bows were better in nearly every way, penetration, accuracy, damage to target, rate of fire. Guns only had ease of use. Guns were not wide-spread until pretty recently due to that ease of use factor. Guns would only be martial weapons in settings similar to early America, or end of Age of discovery. Renaissance era guns would be Exotic due to lack of widespread use.

As for stats. 2d6, 50ft range, 19-20/ x3 critical, a flat +4 to hit and 200 gold.
That should be appropriate.

Juggernaut1981
2009-05-18, 07:29 PM
Three main things...
#1 Early firearms had issues hitting a barn with any accuracy. Effectiveness of the things was lining up 30 of them, pointing them at a row of 30 other people and with the spray of bullets probably taking out 10-15 of the enemy. Then 30 of your mates move forward and shoot while you busily reload and hope like crap you aren't hit by their bullets.Range increments on firearms should be SHORT. They aren't accurate at all (even though the bullet might travel 600ft+

#2 Blunderbuss: Pray and Spray for 1500s Gangstas. Forget the Uzi and it's ability to barely hit anything at a range of more then 20mm... The Blunderbuss is basically an area effect. You jam this 2cm wide pipe with flack and black powder then point it and it goes "bang"... From a D&D perspective it seems better to make it a cone effect with Reflex saves or maybe with AC + Reflex saves.

#3 Early firearms went bang in two ways... 1) The way you plan with a little pellet of warm soft lead flying reasonably fast. 2) The barrel exploded so you and your mates get fragments of steel through your faces... You should build in some kind of "Epic Fail" mechanic into these things

My Suggestions
1) "Epic Fail"/Gun explodes mechanic should be included. You're messing "French Musketeers" style tech here... it blows up often enough.
2) BIG bonus to confirm criticals. 18-20 Crit Range, +6 bonus to confirm Criticals, x3 critical damage.
3) Horribly innacurate things. The range increment should be low, like a thrown weapon low... you couldn't hit the Tarrasque if you were standing under it.

imp_fireball
2009-05-19, 12:17 AM
To the last poster:

Exagerration aside, that's why I made early firearms (anything 'muzzle loaded' essentially) use only five range increments with harsher penalties (although that hasn't been included yet). The maximum increment of a handgonne is 100ft. compared to 1000ft. for a longbow (tell me which is superior for taking down heavily armored charging knights in the battle of hastings?), and even at that range they have a -20 penalty.


A move action would break a pretty fundamental rule of the game (except in 4e, where it would be absolutely fine).

How so? Still flows the same. Base speed = move action along with anything else that can be a move action with move action being always less than a standard action (two move actions = full action). I'm sure it's easy to translate.

If the fundamental rule you're talking about is that an ECL 1 can only make 1 attack/round, that's already being brushed aside.


It takes concerted effort to pull the trigger. It's an underestimation, foo'. CoC reference. Except at 10ft. (point blank)

Yah well that's why I made it AoO at point blank. It seems film-istic if two guys can make like three or four AoOs against each other because of combat reflexes between the both of them.

Also, this is more for realism not hollywood. If you want hollywood, play d20 modern. It's better to do a D&D crossover when you root it in realism first.

Point blank is usually something like 30ft. range (could be wrong), so that's pretty close to 10ft.

Ashtagon
2009-05-19, 02:05 AM
To the guy who says shooting should be a move action:

How long do you think it should take to reload the weapon? I am completely at a loss as to what level of technology you are visualising for your guns.

lesser_minion
2009-05-19, 02:32 AM
If the fundamental rule you're talking about is that an ECL 1 can only make 1 attack/round, that's already being brushed aside.

I see no benefit to ruling that a semi-automatic pistol can be fired as a move action - it just seems like a change for the sake of change. You're modding D&D here, not FATAL. All you are achieving is a rule that doesn't fit in with the rest of the game system and doesn't really gain anything from it. You even said it yourself - it makes little difference in gameplay. The times it will make a difference are the times someone figures out a way to break it.

It would be much easier to just allow an extra attack as part of a full attack at the character's highest base attack bonus, possibly with an additional -2 penalty to all attacks. The 60 RPM fire rate attainable using that rule is certainly nowhere near as unrealistic as the fire rate attainable using a longbow.

It also requires fewer lines of rules and so on and also makes more sense in the context of the rest of the game.

@Juggernaut: the D&D rules for critical hits work based on the assumption that most decent weapons are either precise (hits important things a lot more often), or brutal (hits important things a lot harder). I see no reason for firearms to break that rule, but a x3 or x4 critical hit could work as an alternative to the MSRD's massive damage rule.

Remember that even in the 17th, 18th and 19th centuries infantry armed with swords and spears proved effective against forces equipped with firearms, sometimes even when outnumbered on an open plain. Should early firearms really be that good?

Juggernaut1981
2009-05-20, 12:53 AM
@Lesser_minion:

Critical Threat = accurate/precision weapon... you more commonly get to hit a kidney/elbow/knee/etc. Ergo: Rapier

Critical Damage = how much owie your "wang stick" does... Ergo: Greataxe

The thing about early firearms is that nobody pretended they were accurate. You waited until people got close and then blasted, hoping you took them down before either drawing your sword or trying to reload while your allies took another blast.

So, if you struck lucky would it hurt badly? Almost always. So by making the Critical Damage high and the chance to confirm high, you are representing the fact that these things (on the off chance they did actually hit a "soft-spot") would basically kill.

Infantry against firearms was the usual tactics: Numbers & Reliability of weapons. Sword don't explode, but they also don't kill at 50ft. It was only around the American Civil War that firearms became reliable enough to be used by conscripts and actually be more effective than handing them all swords and telling them to "swing it at the enemy hard". Cavalry did still maintain swords, probably because reloading a pistol on horseback at full sprint is a pain in the ass.

lesser_minion
2009-05-20, 09:48 AM
Well, why not just give the weapon a high base damage to start with? A critical hit is a seriously major injury, and represents the ability of swords and axes to inflict hideous injuries (hence the low-level Crit = New Character system).

With a gunshot dealing 2d6 damage, many hits will take a 1st-level character from full to bleeding out in one shot. A crit will almost guarantee it.

On the rare occasions when you put a musket ball through something immediately vital like the head or spinal column, you can assume that the shot will do a lot of damage - say, x3 or even x4.

But it isn't going to do that more frequently than a sword or a rapier, at least not against an unarmoured target. Against an armoured target, it gets a potential to-hit bonus anyway.

Hawriel
2009-05-20, 08:58 PM
A musket ball on a 'crit' will do a crap load more damage than a rapier. These weapons are not the same. A rapier is a flat thin blade. It goes in then out mostly in a strait path. A musket ball is a soft piece of lead traveling at high velocity. When it hits it misshapens and tumbls taking anything but a strait path. While doing this the ball smashes through organs. If the bullet hits any thing solid, like bone, it will at best stop and brake the bone. At worse it will shatter the bone creating splinters that will add to the damage. This will also cause the bullet to change direction causing even more damage. This type of damage will out right distroy organs. A rapier comparativly leaves a clean wound.

If you look at the crit mechanics with an eye of realism a rapier should have the same crit threat as a longsword. The axe and greatsword should have the 18 with a x3 multiplier. But I digress.

To keep fire arms with in the guidlines of the mechanics for weapons and touching on how they really work i suggest this.

pistol 2D6 damage 20 x3 crit

musket 2d8 damage 19 x3 crit
OR 3d6 damage 19 x3 crit

This keeps it in line with the damage potential and makes the longer reload time worth it.

Juggernaut1981
2009-05-20, 10:03 PM
@Lesser_Minion (and others)

It wasn't going to increase the Critical Threat range (I am more than happy to say that they have a 20 Crit Threat). Instead, to represent the fact that if (because of some freak chance) these things do hit a "soft-spot" they do SERIOUS damage most of the time... give a bonus to confirm the critical threat. +6 is a big bonus, and I'd have no issue with a GM scaling that back. Adding in a Critical Damage of x3 or x4 also represents that kind of "shredding of organs" things that soft lead pellets do...

So, they start off as: 2d4 or 2d6 base damage, 20+ Critical Threat, x4 Damage... with a +4 bonus on confirming the Critical, Range increment of 20ft for a Rifle/Musket, Range increment of 10ft for a pistol, (blunderbuss does an area effect so no range increment)

If you hit the 5% chance of a critical, you then (assuming you would normally need to roll a 10 to confirm) have a 70% chance of confirming the critical and dealing 8d4 damage... Doesn't happen often but when it does there are BIG consequences for the monster suffering the crit. Against undead this does a great big pile of Sweet FA unless they are "an undead cheese killer" with the "I crit undead" feat.

Also as a GM I'd also say "No Improved Crit on Firearms".

Zeful
2009-05-21, 12:26 AM
Also as a GM I'd also say "No Improved Crit on Firearms".

Why? Improved crit represents the ability to more reliably inflict maximum damage on a hit with a weapon. There's no senseable reason to limit early firearms from the feat, when they are simply a combustion powered crossbow (which are allowed the feat).

Ashtagon
2009-05-21, 12:58 AM
Some rather bizarre ideas on ballistics upthread, boys and girls.

A bullet - any bullet - will start to tumble the moment it hits any kind of obstacle at all, whether skin, clothing/armour, light twigs or leaves, or even a mere sheet of paper. Tumbling in this case is merely a fancy word for front-to-back spinning. And it will do this exactly once, unless it repeatedly hits such soft obstacles.

Note that tumbling for any kind of musket is a non-issue. Since the bullets are spherical (unlike modern bullets), tumbling will have zero effect on the size of any wound.

If it hits a hard obstacle, such as a tree trunk, thick-enough armour, or bone, it will stop. Depending on the materials used and velocity, it may shatter, sending bullet fragments through the body (usually requires specially designed rounds), it make shatter the bone, sending bone fragments around, it may misshapen, making it extremely hard to remove surgically because it's now bigger than the entry wound, or it may bounce, either hitting another hard surface (bone/armour), or exiting the body, most likely in a different direction.

Note that the bullet will not misshapen unless it hits a bone or other hard object. yes, lead is soft, but not compared to human flesh it isn't. Also, the bullet's path is straight (barring a bounce off a bone or similar object) and extremely predictable. It is in no way random (predictable bullet paths is the whole basis of forensic ballistics after all).

lesser_minion
2009-05-21, 01:46 AM
A musket ball on a 'crit' will do a crap load more damage than a rapier. These weapons are not the same.

That's pretty much what I said, aside from pointing out that early firearms are fairly imprecise. There are some pretty horrific depictions of injuries arising from musket balls at close range, including points such as infection.

I would suggest giving the 19-20 crit range to early muzzle-loading rifles rather than muskets, however - these weapons took an even longer time to reload, much longer ranged, and were commonly used for sniping.

That leads neatly onto modern firearms, which I would suggest giving a 19-20/x2 crit - modern firearms fire much smaller ammunition than early ones, favour fully-jacketed rounds (explicitly because they are less likely to deform or break up on impact, although they also leave less fouling in the barrel), and are often more accurate.

The closest modern weapon to a musket is probably a shotgun (particularly when firing slugs) rather than a sniper rifle.

Juggernaut1981
2009-05-21, 08:48 PM
@Zeful & No Improved Crit

No Improved Critical is basically because even if you point the thing at your enemy, you have remarkably little control over the end direction of the shot. Unlike Crossbows which were designed to be handed to conscripted soldiers during sieges, muzzle-loaded "mixed shot" muskets or "pellet" muskets are horridly inaccurate. Crossbows are much easier to "get more accurate" with, ditto for Longbows fired in a flat-arc (not lobbed/ballistic style shots).

It wasn't until you get to roughly the 1700s that muskets and rifles became moderately accurate and they did so by a long process of having the things explode and learning more about how to build a barrel and using predetermined wads of powder with pre-made bullets. Round pellets were still in fashion until close to the Boer War (late 1800s), jacketed and shaped bullets were developed for use with revolvers and rifles in the "Wild West" sort of era... basically with the invention of encased rounds. So I'd probably exclude improved critical for firearms in any setting earlier than about 1750...

imp_fireball
2009-05-25, 02:24 PM
The times it will make a difference are the times someone figures out a way to break it.

And yet, it's more confusing and inflexible to say that it's a standard action to fire but that you are allowed 'two attacks'. Right now, it feels like you're basing the idea that semi-automatic firearms should not be a move action on the basis of attacks traditionally being standard actions, where a standard action is really only a classification for the means of occupying 'time' than tradition. See? Maybe it should be playtested.

I don't want people to feel that I'm unyielding and stubborn in my rules and should be ignored ultimately (which has actually happened before).


Question: Why should firearms be allowed a ranged AoO when crossbows don't have one?

Pistols (firearms that count as light weapons) are the only weapons that have ranged AoO and targeting more than one target (say, in multiple AoOs) counts as wild fire - unless you want it to be ruled that all ranged AoOs should count as wildfire (for simplicity), but that they do not increment when involving the same target; and additionally, they might either be denied that ranged AoO when another person threatens their space or provoke an AoO from that person (which could get even more confusing). When I write it in the OP, I'll try to clear all that up and remove it if it cannot be tolerated in a playtest.

Similarly though, hand crossbows don't have ranged AoO, so I don't know. It's more of a case of trying to reflect the fact that a shooter can still respond even if startled, rather than the fact that the enemy can always carry out their action before the shooter responds (which includes suicide bombing or whatever the case might be). In any case, it's not all that much of an advantage.

How many people make ranged attacks within 30ft. of someone else in a one on one duel?


No Improved Critical is basically because even if you point the thing at your enemy, you have remarkably little control over the end direction of the shot. Unlike Crossbows which were designed to be handed to conscripted soldiers during sieges, muzzle-loaded "mixed shot" muskets or "pellet" muskets are horridly inaccurate. Crossbows are much easier to "get more accurate" with, ditto for Longbows fired in a flat-arc (not lobbed/ballistic style shots).

I could remove the improved crit (18-20), but for more modern firearms the 'improved crit affect' will obviously apply depending on how 'accurate' the firearm itself is.

---------
I'm willing to playtest my firearms rules, if anyone is willing to volunteer, we can arrange a date, set up a PbP thread on here, etc.?

imp_fireball
2009-06-01, 01:32 AM
Allowing it to work during grapples could work pretty well I guess - you would probably have to explicitly state that that's the case, as I don't think it's explicit in the grapple rules, but that could be quite interesting.

The SRD already says that a person grappling (as well as one opposing the grapple) cannot make attacks of opportunity against those they are not grappling with, so really its pretty easy to have a scenario of the badguy grappling the damsel with a gun to her head (ready action to fire, or even coup de grace, if she opposes his grapple attempts for every round thereafter... an average of 12 or 8 damage on a coup de grace shot to the head would probably 'instantly kill' the level 1 commoner damsel).

It's pretty easy to have a scenario of the PC with a gun aimed at the badguy and the chief shouting 'take the shot!' (SRD even has rules for chance to hit the damsel instead of the badguy, which could be a reason why the PC hesitates and again why having hostages in close proximity is actually a viable tactic in D&D... no need for explicitly stating things).

-------

As for firing a gun with two hands, is it really necessary to rule that they need +1 BAB in order to fire with one hand without penalty - or to include that rule when making AoOs at point blank range against actions that provoke but do not include movement (so charging wouldn't ordinarily provoke)?

EDIT: I also realized that a standard and move action are the same darn thing. The SRD should be a little more clear about that. :smallmad:

I'll edit it up to make pistols allow for double attacks on a full attack action, assuming no other actions are made.

Stormthorn
2009-06-01, 10:23 PM
On SpikeTV they have some show where they shot a blunderbust into a breatplate.

In general, bullets win. I would suggest giving each firearm a simple value of natural or artificial armor that it can negate. So for a modern sniper rifle something like 15 but for a flintlock more like 4.

Zeful
2009-06-01, 11:26 PM
On SpikeTV they have some show where they shot a blunderbust into a breatplate.

In general, bullets win. I would suggest giving each firearm a simple value of natural or artificial armor that it can negate. So for a modern sniper rifle something like 15 but for a flintlock more like 4.

A static bonus to hit does the same thing.

imp_fireball
2009-06-02, 04:39 PM
Some high powered rifles and gauss, can overwhelm 'bulletproof' qualities (that's how it would differ from the static bonus... where a flintlock can overwhelm armor but not bulletproof, a rifle can overwhelm bulletproof; or I could change it yet again). The 'characteristics' section of firearm can pretty much be filled by a GM choosing to run a campaign with firearms.

'Rifled' and 'early' and 'chemical' are obviously sample characteristics that I created.

You can modify them if you're running a campaign using these rules, but original credit should go to me - I wonder if I should OGL tag this? Is it allowed on these boards?

Maybe a mod could PM me about the specifics if there are any.

Rion
2009-06-02, 05:53 PM
On SpikeTV they have some show where they shot a blunderbust into a breatplate.

In general, bullets win. I would suggest giving each firearm a simple value of natural or artificial armor that it can negate. So for a modern sniper rifle something like 15 but for a flintlock more like 4.

Sorry if I sound aggressive or arrogant (this mostly because when I read my own posts they seem more aggressive than I intend them to be, if this one isn't disregard this), but read some of the earlier posts. The early gunpowder weapons weren't anywhere near as advanced, powerful, accurate and armour-piercing as the later ones. There existed armours capable of resisting bullets, and despite 15th century Arbalests being better at piercing armour, heavy crossbows (though there were more types of crossbows than just light and heavy, each requiring different spanning devices) doesn't have any special rules when it comes to fighting armour.

imp_fireball
2009-06-06, 07:49 PM
So should the static bonus apply to 'armor penetration' or just apply in general? Or not at all?

Also, what about creating new technology? Should their be an XP cost (like spells), or should it simply involve lots of skill checks and time (like spells)?

Zeful
2009-06-06, 11:56 PM
So should the static bonus apply to 'armor penetration' or just apply in general? Or not at all?If you are applying a bonus to represent armor penetrating qualities, very high speed and such, then have it apply all the time.

imp_fireball
2009-06-07, 02:30 AM
That's why I referred to it as a 'static bonus'.

The reason it exists at all is for tactical games where players have arms races (bigger, better weapon that can still be carried wins).

Also, tactical situations where different weapons come into play.

Ninetail
2009-06-07, 06:54 PM
Against plate mail, bullets are extremely effective, even more so than against people without plate mail.


This is untrue.

If you're speaking of high-powered modern weapons, it's true that plate mail wouldn't be much help, but that's somewhat outside the scope of the discussion. And I'm not convinced that it would actively be worse than being unarmored.


I have seen with my own two eyes a well kept breatplate with a hole in the center, and full of lumps from when the bullet bounced around. (Ok, it might have been a replica- I'm iffy on that fact- but I highly doubt anyone would go so far as to recreate a breastplate that isn't historically accurate.)


You might have seen an early breastplate.

There was something of an arms race during the Renaissance. Metal armor got better because of improvements in metallurgy, even as firearms were improving. It did indeed stop bullets. What the other poster said about breastplates being shot to test them is true; this was known as "proven" plate.



Yes, put enough metal in the way of a bullet and you can stop it, but plate mail is made out of very thin metal so as to not be incredibly encumbering. Against a flintlock or more modern weapon, it doesn't stand a chance. Sure, it might be enough to credit 2 or 3 AC rather than the standard 8, but that's unnecessary bookkeeping.


Simply incorrect. Armor did stand a chance against firearms, especially at range. (Plate armor also became heavier in response to firearms, incidentally. Warhorses were bred larger to compensate.) Some European heavy cavalry units used heavy breastplates into the late 1800s for this very reason.

The problem with plate mail was its expense, not its efficacy. It was by no means perfect, but it offered considerable protection for quite a long time. The expense was a major factor in its disappearance, but a lighter breastplate and helmet remained in use for some time.



Furthermore, why do you think 16th and 17th century firearms were used widely, if not that? They were slow, noisy, inaccurate and expensive. But they could take an armored knight out- normally an incredibly potent opponent- quite easily.

They were also relatively easy to use, compared to a bow (which was a much deadlier and more accurate weapon, in skilled hands, than an early firearm).

The "guns killed knights" thing isn't really entirely true, though. It wasn't nearly so one-sided as all that. Until the rifled barrel came into widespread use, the knights held their own.