D&D v3.75 [Feats]

[Vorpal word]

After some time to revise things, I came to a few conclusions about my v3.75 homebrew plan. The first of which is the fact that it should be posted in several different threads for different topics. There are now five threads, for races, classes, mechanics, skills, and feats. Please post comments on appropriate threads only.

Feats are definitely something that needs to be reworked for both editions. Some of the 3.5 feats are horribly weak, while 4e has the problem of multiclass feats (I honestly prefer actually having multiple classes for this purpose). Things that really need improvement are Toughness (say, change it to +1 hp times 1/2 level each time you take it), Whirlwind Attack (no point if you can already make more than 6 attacks without using it), and Weapon Focus/Specialization (I'm not quite sure what should be done there, but something must be changed). More will be coming soon, and new feats (ie. Improved Parry from my previous posts) could help.

[Knaight]

With toughness there is already Improved Toughness from Complete Warrior, which is one extra hit point per level. But there is a pretty major range of feat power, which could be lessened significantly.

[arkol]

Haven't read your other topics, but in general are you tweaking for 3.75? If you agree with the majority of the people that one of the main problems is the gap between casters and non-casters you can easily spot the major problem with feats in 3.5

Most feats that are actually made for spellscasters last them for pretty much their entire carrer. In fact many actually become better as you progress, if for no other reason that they start to apply to more powerfull spell.

So my idea is that non-casters feats should auto-scale and/or provide more then one bonus.

Weapon focus is a good exemple. What good does a +1 to hit does you at lvl20? It should start at +1 yes, but then the bonus must keep going up. Obviously here the trick is knowing when and by how much...

To give you another, more specific exemple, the TWF tree.
In the (few) games I DM, this is how it works.

TWF starts by doing what it already does. When your bab reach +6 you gain a second attack with your off-hand too (in other words you gain improved TWF). When you bab reach +11 you gain a third attack with your off-hand too (again in other words you get greater TWF). You also need a minimum dex to have this extras beneficts, but lower then the original requisites.

Improved and greater TWF still exist but work diffrently. I used to have has reducing the penalty of TWF by an extra 1 and basically gaining shield defense. So Improved TWF and using a light weapon in your off-hand would be at -1-1 and you'de get +1 shield AC. Greater TWF would negate the penalty altogether and get your shield ac to +2.

Now I'm considering something slightly diffrent. Improved TWF would still reduce the penalty by -1, and still have the shield bonus, but the shield bonus would probably go up naturally.

Greater TWF would propably be a mix of TWF feats, like TWF pounce (totally reworked) and something else. Gotta test that one actually...

[lesser_minion]

I think my suggestion for TWF would be to take a leaf out of the 4e book - allow the character to attack once with either weapon at a +2 bonus. You could also offer a feat allowing a character to attack with both weapons as a single attack roll at a penalty.

Something allowing characters to move and attack more than once would be very useful as well, but that is probably better as a core mechanic.

[Hadrian_Emrys]

Ugh. Feats should grow with characters so that each trick is it's own investment. Things like Two Weapon Fighting should cover the entire 3.5 chain and then some. If each feat was worth something, characters could have so much more variety in their actions and fighters just might stop sucking.

[Vorpal word]

Honestly I really like the 3.5 "multiple attacks per round" approach. I mean, the fact that only monsters get to have five attacks every time is a bit unfair to players (and I'd rather not see too many people playing monsters).

I DO like the idea of gradually improving Weapon Focus (say, +1 per 5 levels going up to +4, and Greater Weapon Focus stacks with it). Weapon Specialization, on the other hand, needs less improvement, probably +2 per 10levels.

As for Two-Weapon Fighting, the main thing here is that if my Parrying plan works, the two will overlap a bit. So, as a basic proposal:

- Two-Weapon Fighting: Penalty for wielding multiple weapons decreased by 2 for main weapon and 6 for off-hand weapon (starts at -6/-10, or -4/-8 if off-hand is light)

- Improved Parry: +1/5 levels to all parrying checks and riposte attacks (note that as parrying as a full round action gives you one parry per regular attack you have, TWF and other feats will help here)

-Crossblade Parry: Additional +2 on parrying attempts when wielding two weapons, and can make a free disarm attempt instead of riposteing an opponent (Prerequisites: TWF, IP)

-Dual-Wielding Expert: Attacks with off hand can go up to [# of main hand attacks -1], but no less than 1 (Prerequisites: TWF, BAB +16)

-Whirlwind Attack: One attack per melee weapon per opponent in range (includes reach weapons) as a full attack at no penalty (Prerequisites: BAB +16) (once again, dual-wielding helps)

[lesser_minion]

So you mean something like:

Two-Weapon Fighting [general, fighter]
Prerequisites: Dexterity 15+, Base Attack Bonus +1
Benefit: You may now wield two light or one-handed weapons simultaneously. While doing so, you gain a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls, and ignore the usual -4 to hit and half strength bonus penalties associated with an off-hand weapon.

Additionally, by taking a -5 penalty to all attacks, you may make an additional attack with your off-hand weapon whenever you would be permitted an attack with your primary weapon, at the same base attack bonus. You may reduce this to -3 if either weapon is light.

A character with a BAB of +16 or higher using this feat may treat the weapons he is dual-wielding as being two identical weapons which use the most favourable damage dice, threat range and critical multiplier of the two. Both weapons count as light in any circumstance where this favours the character, and one-handed otherwise. Such a combination is considered a weapon in its own right for the purposes of any feats restricted to one kind of weapon.

Normal: You gain no benefit from dual-wielding weapons, and suffer a -4 penalty to off-hand attacks.
Special: A fighter may select two-weapon fighting as a bonus feat.


I think it's a bit OP, but it fits your description.

[Hadrian_Emrys]

An ideal TWF, in my mind, roughly allows a character to:

1 Make an attack with thier secondary weapon for every attack they can make with their primary weapon. This means even such actions as AoOs, Spring Attacks, and Charges.

2 Add +x to AC/touch AC (when wielding two weapons or a double weapon) at BAB +1, improving by +x at BAB +6, +11, and +16.

Edit: As a side note, I think that punishing players for going TWF is just as poorly thought out as Vancian magic. Like communism, it's an interesting concept that fails miserably in practice.

[ericgrau]

Improved toughness is overpowered, people just don't notice because it's a defensive feat and there are more broken things out there. But anyone who doesn't think con is a dump stat should take improved toughness regardless of class over any core feat, unless they have even more broken feats available. But the problem with toughness is that it's front-loaded; it's actually not too bad of a feat until around level 8ish when your own HP starts to drown it out. The OP's method of 1/2 HP per level seems like it would work. This is in contrast to other feats where it's the difference between your stat and the baddy's that matters, and a +1 is as good at level 20 as it is at level 1. Yes, I have average monster AC vs. level and average monster saves vs. level tables and they scale slightly faster than their level, just like everything else.

Whirlwind attack gives you all the attacks at full attack bonus, giving it a large advantage in terms of number of actual hits vs. someone with 6+ attacks with 2/3 of them at mediocre bonuses. Likewise the main problem with weapon focus is that people underappreciate the value of attack bonus. There have been similar complaints about 4e feats, falling on deaf ears since the staff know how powerful AB is and are very careful about giving it out. And again, once you factor in the penalty to attack bonus, power attack (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87339) is usually as weak or weaker than weapon specialization.

On that note I'd like to help you with your parrying homebrew but I'm confused about what your rules are for it. Perhaps you could link me to the original description of it? I've done a lot of numbers work on 3.5e already right down to damage per round (not just damage per hit) calcs, simulations, duels, etc. and I think I could help you balance your parrying rules.

[Severedevil]

once you factor in the penalty to attack bonus, power attack (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87339) is usually as weak or weaker than weapon specialization.

There's a trivial cheat in the form of the feat Shock Trooper, which allows you to lose AC instead of AB when you power attack. Once you ban Shock Trooper, Power Attack becomes less of a monster.

[lesser_minion]

Edit: As a side note, I think that punishing players for going TWF is just as poorly thought out as Vancian magic. Like communism, it's an interesting concept that fails miserably in practice.

Well, the feat I posted only penalises you if you actually use TWF to double your attacks. You can still use it to gain an attack bonus and the option to combine the weapons.
Double attacks is hardly something to sniff at, even at -2 to hit.

[ericgrau]

There's a trivial cheat in the form of the feat Shock Trooper, which allows you to lose AC instead of AB when you power attack. Once you ban Shock Trooper, Power Attack becomes less of a monster.

And leap attack, and wraithstrike and prolly more. Yeah, there are plenty of ways to cheese power attack into something strong. That's more of an issue with those ways than with PA. But yeah, banning shock trooper is a good start.

[Vorpal word]

Thanks [eric], the parrying rules are as follows (someone told me there was a similar option in 2e, but I got this from a friend as an original idea):

Basically, during your turn you can either spend a standard action to sacrifice a basic melee attack, or use a full-round action to sacrifice as many melee attacks as you like from your total, and use the rest as actual attacks (attack bonus is the same for parries as attacks).

Then, when you are attacked in melee outside your turn you may use up to one sacrificed attempt per attack against you (and no more than the total number of sacrificed attempts) to parry the attack. To parry, roll an attack roll and if your roll beats the opponent's attack you parry it, causing it to deal no damage. Basically, a useful but risky try if your AB is better than your AC, since if the attack beats your attack but not your AC it still misses.

Also, after successfully parrying an attack, if you still have parry attempts left you can riposte, getting a free attack against the same foe's Flat-Footed AC (only for that attack) right after parrying. Yes, you can sneak attack with this approach, but there's a catch. If your parry fails, YOU are considered flat-footed against the attack you failed to parry.

If this works out I may use it to replace Total Defense, since it seems more logical.

[Vorpal word]

As an update for today, I propose the following:

a) Make Spring Attack for all regular movement modes (land speed, fly speed, climb speed, burrow speed, and swim speed). However, if trying to use it mounted both the rider and the mount must have Spring Attack for it to work. Rideby Attack is an alternative that grants your mount Spring Attack under your control ONLY.

b) All the "Improved" Feats should be bonus/5 levels. So Improved Parry grants you +1 on Parrying/5 levels, Improved Initiative grants +1 Initiative/5 levels, Improved Grapple is a +1 to Grapple Checks/5 levels, etc. (note that I still haven't decided how grappling will work [see the mechanics thread], so Improved Grapple might change). "Improved" Feats only apply to specific combat rolls that are NOT regular attack rolls, as those have separate feats.

c) There are a few exceptions to these rules, such as Improved Feint (Feint as a minor action as opposed to a move action), Improved Unarmed Strike (Unarmed attacks don't provoke attacks of oppurtunity and can deal lethal damage), etc.