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Asbestos
2009-05-09, 06:31 PM
There are some things about summoning in 4e that I would like to have cleared up, they all pretty much revolve around what exactly mods the summoned creature's attacks.

Let's say there is a Tiefling Wizard with Hellfire Blood and a +1 Orb of Insurmountable Force. He summons a Fire Warrior (Level 1 Daily).

Now, assuming that the Wizard is level 3 and has a +4 Int Modifier, what is the attack bonus of the Fire Warrior?

Possibilities:
+5 (1/2 level + Int mod)
+6 (1/2 level + Int mod + Orb)
+7 (1/2 level + Int mod + Orb + Hellfire Blood)

Now, it says that summons use your attack bonuses, barring temporary modifiers. Hellfire Blood isn't 'temporary' and the spell says 'Arcane, Implement, Fire' in its descriptor... so shouldn't Hellfire Blood add to the Fire Warrior's attacks? This same question arises for all those other feats that modify the damage of powers with various keywords.

Also, what if the Tiefling has the Fire Warrior attack a bloodied creature, would it get a bonus from Bloodhunt?

Finally, can the Wizard use the encounter power of the Orb of Insurmountable Force on the target of the Fire Warrior's attack? Basically, can you use Implement properties/powers through summoned creatures?

Edit: Also, does the 'Instinctive Action' of Druid summons make them inherently better than other summons?

Hzurr
2009-05-09, 07:36 PM
Part of this came up in the "Simple Q&A (by RAW)" thread (Q388)

Here's the answer I gave there:


It doesn't get the feat bonus. The Hellfire Blood feat specifically says that you get the bonus, and the text on summon creatures states that they're to be treated as an ally to you and your companions. So the creature doesn't get any of your feat bonuses that wouldn't also apply to the other members of your group (like Group Insight, for example).

I'd give it a +6.

Gralamin
2009-05-09, 07:54 PM
The answer to Q 388 was wrong then. It is specified in the description that all attacks made by the summon are treated as if they were made by you. So anything that you have that would enhance that attack is used, including Hellfire Blood, should apply.

Edit: Here is the text needed from the compendium

Attacks and Checks: If a summoning power allows the summoned creature to attack, you make an attack through the creature, as specified in the power description. If the summoned creature can make a skill check or an ability check, you make the check. Attacks and checks you make through the creature do not include temporary bonuses or penalties to your statistics.
Bolding mine. This is logically equivalent to the attack being made by you.

Asbestos
2009-05-09, 08:04 PM
Yes, I asked Q388, but I felt that more explanation was needed and that it wasn't as simple as it may seem. Yes, to the summoned creature being an ally but...


Attacks and Checks: If a summoning power
allows the summoned creature to attack, you make
an attack through the creature, as specified in the
power description. If the summoned creature can
make a skill check or an ability check, you make
the check. Attacks and checks you make through
the creature do not include temporary bonuses or
penalties to your statistics.

Emphasis mine. Yes, it is an ally in that it counts for things that depend on that (flanking, powers, whatev) but it seems that as far as attacks (and defenses) go it is essentially an extension of the character. Is Hellfire Blood a temporary bonus?

But, even if Hellfire Blood works... does Bloodhunt? Is that temporary or something else?

Gralamin
2009-05-09, 08:08 PM
Yes, I asked Q388, but I felt that more explanation was needed and that it wasn't as simple as it may seem. Yes, to the summoned creature being an ally but...



Emphasis mine. Yes, it is an ally in that it counts for things that depend on that (flanking, powers, whatev) but it seems that as far as attacks (and defenses) go it is essentially an extension of the character.

But, even if Hellfire Blood works... does Bloodhunt? Is that temporary or something else?

Ninja'd my Bolding. Yes it is an extension of the character in essence. In fact, if something triggered off you killing or bloodying something, then your summon killing or bloodying something would activate the effect, unless the summon had some sort of damage aura that did not require an attack.

Asbestos
2009-05-09, 08:19 PM
Ninja'd my Bolding. Yes it is an extension of the character in essence. In fact, if something triggered off you killing or bloodying something, then your summon killing or bloodying something would activate the effect, unless the summon had some sort of damage aura that did not require an attack.

Yes, but since the +1 to attack from Bloodhunt is contingent upon a non-constant attribute (the enemy being bloodied) then it doesn't get added in since it is a temporary bonus, correct?

Gralamin
2009-05-09, 08:45 PM
Yes, but since the +1 to attack from Bloodhunt is contingent upon a non-constant attribute (the enemy being bloodied) then it doesn't get added in since it is a temporary bonus, correct?

If the enemy is bloodied, then you get it. If the enemy is not bloodied, you don't get it. Its exactly the same as if you walked up to the enemy and whacked it.

Asbestos
2009-05-10, 05:36 PM
If the enemy is bloodied, then you get it. If the enemy is not bloodied, you don't get it. Its exactly the same as if you walked up to the enemy and whacked it.

I still feel that it is a 'temporary bonus' however and therefor would not apply to the summoned creature's attacks.

Other questions... can an elf wizard use their racial ability to reroll an attack made through a summoned creature?

Also, what's the ruling on using Implement powers through a summoned creature (ie in my original example can the Fire Warrior push a target 2 squares with an attack thanks to the Orb of Insurmountable Force?)

Gralamin
2009-05-10, 07:13 PM
I still feel that it is a 'temporary bonus' however and therefor would not apply to the summoned creature's attacks.

Other questions... can an elf wizard use their racial ability to reroll an attack made through a summoned creature?

Also, what's the ruling on using Implement powers through a summoned creature (ie in my original example can the Fire Warrior push a target 2 squares with an attack thanks to the Orb of Insurmountable Force?)

Its really not that complicated: The rules say you make the attack, so any bonus you would have access to is applied, temporary or not.

If it makes it easier to grasp: A wizard uses Summon Fire Warrior. In doing so he creates the Fire Warrior in the square in range, which has a melee 1 Standard and opportunity attack. Each of these attacks effectively have the Arcane, Fire, and Implement keywords.

Now, Lets continue on with your example:


Let's say there is a Tiefling Wizard with Hellfire Blood and a +1 Orb of Insurmountable Force. He summons a Fire Warrior (Level 1 Daily).

Now, assuming that the Wizard is level 3 and has a +4 Int Modifier, what is the attack bonus of the Fire Warrior?

Possibilities:
+5 (1/2 level + Int mod)
+6 (1/2 level + Int mod + Orb)
+7 (1/2 level + Int mod + Orb + Hellfire Blood)
He is basically making an attack with the following power:

Daily; Arcane, Fire, Implement
Standard Action (Or Opportunity attack).......Melee 1
Special: You use this power as if you were in the square of your Fire Warrior
Special: Although this is a daily power, it may be used at-will
Target: One Creature
Attack: Intelligence vs Reflex
Hit: 1d8+Intelligence modifier Fire damage.

So, Your attack bonus would look like:
+1 (1/2 level)
+4 (Int mod)
+1 (Enhancement)
+1 (Hellfire blood)
+1 (Bloodhunt if bloodied)
----------
+7, +8 if foe is bloodied.

Your Damage bonus would look like:
+4 (Int mod)
+1 (Enhancement)
+1 (Hellfire Blood)
-----
+6 damage

So personalizing the power you have:

Daily; Arcane, Fire, Implement
Standard Action (Or Opportunity attack).......Melee 1
Special: You use this power as if you were in the square of your Fire Warrior
Special: Although this is a daily power, it may be used at-will
Target: One Creature
Attack: +7 vs Reflex (+8 if foe is bloodied)
Hit: 1d8+6 Fire damage.

Now your +1 Orb lets you push 1 square 1/encounter, and you could also activate it when you hit. Hopefully that makes it a bit more clear.

SadisticFishing
2009-05-10, 07:51 PM
It's the +7. You get all the bonuses because even though it's "your ally", in reality, it's your power making the attack.

Asbestos
2009-05-10, 08:37 PM
Its really not that complicated: The rules say you make the attack, so any bonus you would have access to is applied, temporary or not.


Actually its the temporary bonuses that are the exception.



Attacks and Checks: If a summoning power
allows the summoned creature to attack, you make
an attack through the creature, as specified in the
power description. If the summoned creature can
make a skill check or an ability check, you make
the check. Attacks and checks you make through
the creature do not include temporary bonuses or
penalties to your statistics.

See, the question is what is temporary and what isn't I guess.

Shadow_Elf
2009-05-10, 09:07 PM
Actually its the temporary bonuses that are the exception.



See, the question is what is temporary and what isn't I guess.

If Bloodhunt = Temporary, then so does Hellfire Blood (IMHO neither is "temporary"). You see, Bloodhunt is contingent on them being bloodied - but Hellfire Blood is contingent on the attack being Fire or Fear (which is also not "constant", since you can use non-fire/fear powers).
I think it means, for example:
You are in the Cleric's Aura of Super-Useful +1 AC, but your Fire Archon is 3 squares away from the Cleric, and the aura's a Burst 2. The Fire Archon does not gain the +1 AC for you being in the aura, because being within 2 squares of the Cleric for +1 AC is temporary - the Cleric doesn't always have this aura available.

Does that make sense?

Colmarr
2009-05-10, 11:11 PM
I would personally rule that something is "temporary" if it has an inherent duration. In other words, if the bonus or penalty has a self-contained duration.

Eg. the bonus from Righteous Brand or Lance of Faith or the penalties from a Terror weapon.