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View Full Version : Suggestions on future steps for making a non-optimized party work?



subject42
2009-05-09, 09:15 PM
My gaming party has recently set aside it's long-running campaign in favor of some "now for something completely different"-style shenanigans set in the same game world.

Even though we didn't openly discuss it, we ended up making the most inept adventuring party I've seen in a while. A few of us even used the system from my working with aburdly non-optimized characters (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5926331) thread from a while back.

The first session was a lot of fun, but we almost lost two characters to a pack of a few goblins. If anyone here is willing to offer them up, I'd love to hear some suggestions on how to progress these characters in a way that keeps them viable, but doesn't lose their unorthodox natures.

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Right now our party consists of:

A pacifistic, sap-wielding, shifter psychic warrior
A Dwarven Druid with the stats of a fighter
A very unintelligent (INT 7) Halfling Warlock Circus Tumbler
A wizard who "doesn't do damage"


All characters are currently level one.

House rules in use are as follows:

Pathfinder skill system
All characters get an extra feat on character creation
The core +2 to two skills feats (like acrobatic) count as half a feat


The halfling warlock is played by someone who has a very hard time keeping all of the various D&D game mechanics in her head, so it's a bit of a thought experiment on how to make the simplest D&D character that we could possibly manage. Right now she has the Eldritch Spear blast shape invocation (250 foot range) and the Leaps and Bounds invocation through the Extra Invocation feat. As a first level character only a d20 and one d6 are currently in use. Simplicity is key here.

The Psychic Warrior Shifter is horrified by her animal nature and makes an effort to only deal subdual damage in combat. She has a poor track record of doing so, though, and has eaten two or three goblins as a result. She has contracted the local blacksmith to make a blunted sword that will deal switch the -4 to-hit penalty to lethal damage, rather than subdual.

The Dwarf Druid has straight-up fighter stats and has been using that to his advantage. He has enough wisdom that he won't be prevented from accessing spells until level 15-16ish, but saves might be problematic. He has currently been solving most problems with the shillelagh spell and the Animal Devotion feat from the Complete Divine book. He has the Spontaneous Rejuvenation and Aspect of Nature Alternate Class Features.

The wizard has not yet cast a single spell that directly damages an enemy. He usually spends most of his time on fire, but when he isn't busy not burning he has been using disabling and mind-affecting spells.

If you could mold this party and take it in a given direction, what would you do?

Goatman_Ted
2009-05-09, 09:26 PM
...what would you do?
Enjoy playing with a group that works?


(What's the problem again?)

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-05-09, 09:33 PM
Actually, doesn't sound terrible. Lets go member by member:
The halfling warlock is played by someone who has a very hard time keeping all of the various D&D game mechanics in her head, so it's a bit of a thought experiment on how to make the simplest D&D character that we could possibly manage. Right now she has the Eldritch Spear blast shape invocation (250 foot range) and the Leaps and Bounds invocation through the Extra Invocation feat. As a first level character only a d20 and one d6 are currently in use. Simplicity is key here.Seems decent. Warlock is at one of it's low points at 1st level. A boost to wealth would probably be enough to make her decent. Charsuble of Fell Power seems like a perfect boost, as would be picking better Invocations. Those 2 are some of the weakest at first level.
The Psychic Warrior Shifter is horrified by her animal nature and makes an effort to only deal subdual damage in combat. She has a poor track record of doing so, though, and has eaten two or three goblins as a result. She has contracted the local blacksmith to make a blunted sword that will deal switch the -4 to-hit penalty to lethal damage, rather than subdual.Seems okay. Without the sheet I can't be sure, but once she gets a Sap or something her to-hit will be much better, and she should be able to defend herself if the party is backing her up. I'm guessing she shifted during the wrong combat? That's fine, but mention OOC she's likely to be desprate enough to shift only when things are bad. In other words, the most likely time for her to give in to the beast is when she's up against something too dangerous to face otherwise, meaning the best combat for her to shift in.
The Dwarf Druid has straight-up fighter stats and has been using that to his advantage. He has enough wisdom that he won't be prevented from accessing spells until level 15-16ish, but saves might be problematic. He has currently been solving most problems with the shillelagh spell and the Animal Devotion feat from the Complete Divine book. He has the Spontaneous Rejuvenation and Aspect of Nature Alternate Class Features.So just advise him to focus on buffing and no-save stuff when casting, and to fight in melee most of the time. Fighter-stats are actually a good array for Druids until level 5, and later with AoN.
The wizard has not yet cast a single spell that directly damages an enemy. He usually spends most of his time on fire, but when he isn't busy not burning he has been using disabling and mind-affecting spells.Awesome. Point him at Sleep and Color Spray, and hope he never goes back to Evocation.
If you could mold this party and take it in a given direction, what would you do?Don't worry. A few Goblins are technically CR 1, meaning an even challenge, but 1st level is absurdly dangerous(I always laugh to hear people complaining about 15+ being Rocket Launcher Tag, I'd rather roll then than when I have 8 HP). If the 3 of them go after one player, he could be in the negatives in a round with a bit of bad luck. 8 Hp, that's either 2 Morningstars or one and 2 Javelins hitting, which is not unreasonable. See how you do next session.

subject42
2009-05-09, 09:38 PM
Which book contains the Charsuble of Fell Power?

Myrmex
2009-05-09, 09:43 PM
Using save-or-dies can be horribly overpowered if getting a high intelligence score is easy (point buy up to 18, gray elf, age category bumps, and 36 point buy). I think most monsters were balanced under the assumption that casters would have about 6 fewer points to their main casting stat at any level than most I've played with.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-05-09, 09:54 PM
Using save-or-dies can be horribly overpowered if getting a high intelligence score is easy (point buy up to 18, gray elf, age category bumps, and 36 point buy). I think most monsters were balanced under the assumption that casters would have about 6 fewer points to their main casting stat at any level than most I've played with.No, monsters were balanced against Casters never using them, and when they use them, not focusing on the weak save. Remember, the playtesters never thought people would play any specialists other than Evocation unless the other schools had something really good to make up for the fewer d6s. :smallannoyed:

Also, CArc, IIRC. CMage if I'm wrong. It's +1d6 Eldrich Blast damage.

Myrmex
2009-05-09, 10:34 PM
I don't think that's 100% true. If you look at NPC wizards in any book, from either 3.0 or 3.5, they have int scores at least 5 lower than what I would expect them to have in an average game.

I think it's because NPCs start with a base of 15 to 17, after racials, age, etc (as opposed to 18 with 36 point buy, which is about 11 points higher than what th DMG recommends), and pick up a bunch of crap like +3 quarterstaffs and scrolls of charm person rather than putting it all into a +int item or what have you.

Now, if you had a "low" intelligence, due to not getting to play gray elf (or fire or sun elf or deep imaskari or arcane gnome...), not getting 36 pb, not knowing just how good save-or-dies can be (at low to mid levels), and perhaps not getting the best access to magic items, you can see how evocations would be more attractive.

The core rule set has some pretty decent conjurations in it, but no real capability to deal damage like the orbs and other spells that were added in splatbooks.

Combine those factors (lower than CharOp expected int, prejudice towards evocation, lack of non-evocation damaging alternatives in Core), and you ended up with a core rule set that undervalued the save-or-die effect.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-05-09, 10:52 PM
Now, if you had a "low" intelligence, due to not getting to play gray elf (or fire or sun elf or deep imaskari or arcane gnome...), not getting 36 pb, not knowing just how good save-or-dies can be (at low to mid levels), and perhaps not getting the best access to magic items, you can see how evocations would be more attractive.That's not fair. 18 is reasonable with 28 pt-buy, as a human. Racials make that higher, but it's not impossible. 25 pt-buy gets you 18 by level 4.

And Evocations are never more attractive. If I was playing Elite Array, I'd still ban Evocation(and Enchantment, and maybe FS) and spec in Conj, Trans, or Necro. Haste, Sleet Storm, Ray of Exhaustion. All better than Fireball in most cases. Save-or-Die is one tactic that obliviates Evocation, it's not the best one.

shimmercat
2009-05-10, 09:32 AM
Your characters sound awesome. I love that sort of game. Dysfunctional characters are amazing (and dysfunctional players are horrendous!) Sounds like the players get along well and are at about the same level of interest in the RP aspect (high) so that part is good... and that's the hardest part.

I'm not big on 1st level games simply because it IS so easy to die, and if you aren't optimized, it can be a struggle just to keep breathing. Especially without any sort of healer. I'm a big fan of healers -- is there anything you can do to add one (maybe an NPC?) or give someone a wand of Cure Light? It certainly wouldn't hurt.