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View Full Version : Uncroak this volcano [3.5 Epic Spell]



DanielLC
2009-05-10, 01:09 AM
"I want you to try uncroaking this volcano"

Activate Volcano
Transmutation [Teleportation] [Evil]
Spellcraft DC: 196
Components: V, S, M, XP
Casting Time: 11 minutes
Range: Same Plane
Target: Volcano
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None (see text)
Spell Resistance: None (see text)
To Develop: 1,764,000 gp; 36 days; 70,560 XP. Seeds: animate (DC 25), transport (to teleport the gems into the volcano) (DC 27), forsee (to see the endpoint of the teleportation) (DC 17). Factors: make the gems cast the rest of spell (+25 DC), increase size by 10 orders of magnitude (ad hoc +1000 DC), increase range by a factor of 50 (+100 DC). Mitigating factors: two additional casters contributing epic spell slots (-38 DC), 11 minute casting time (-20 DC), burn 20,000 XP per caster (-600 DC), 20d6 backlash per caster (-60 DC), only works on volcanos (ad hoc -80 DC), expensive material component (ad hoc -200 DC).

A pile of gems is teleported into the center of a volcano, where it causes a volcanic eruption. The volcano can have a VEI (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volcanic_Explosivity_Index) of up to 5 (about the size of Mount St. Helens). The volcano does not have to be active. Assuming it has a VEI of 5, the eruption will kill everyone on the volcano who doesn't escape quickly. There isn't enough time to escape through conventional methods. The nearest ten miles of land are covered with ash, killing anyone that doesn't evacuate immediately. Lava can be directed by the caster, so long as it doesn't go uphill, up to 20 miles. For the next year, crops within 100 miles grow at 90% yield. Prices for food double.

Material Component: Volcanic gems worth 500,000 gp.

XP Cost: 20,000 XP (per caster).

Activate Supervolcano
Transmutation [Teleportation] [Evil]
Spellcraft DC: 130
Components: V, S, M, XP
Casting Time: 100 days
Range: 60,000 feet (about 11 miles). This is about the radius of a supervolcano, so you have to be in the center.
Target: Volcano
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None (see text)
Spell Resistance: None (see text)
To Develop: 1,170,000 gp; 24 days; 18,000 XP. Seed: animate (DC 25). Factors: increase size by 14 orders of magnitude (ad hoc +1400 DC), increase range by a factor of 200 (+400 DC). Mitigating factors: four additional casters contributing epic spell slots (-95 DC), 100 day casting time (-220 DC), burn 20,000 XP per caster (-1200 DC), only works on supervolcanos (ad hoc -80 DC), expensive material component (ad hoc -100 DC).

Causes a super volcanic eruption. The volcano does not have to be active. The eruption will kill everyone on the caldera who doesn't escape quickly. There isn't enough time to escape through conventional methods. The nearest hundred miles of land are covered with ash, killing anyone that doesn't evacuate immediately. Lava can be directed by the caster, so long as it doesn't go uphill, up to 200 miles. For the next year, crops everywhere grow at 80% yield. Prices for food quintuple. Prices for everything else doubles. 5% of people and animals starve to death in the ensuing famine. Another 5% are killed off by plagues caused by people's weak immune system.

Material Component: Volcanic gems worth 250,000 gp.

XP Cost: 20,000 XP (per caster).

----
In the first version, it teleports the material component to the center of the volcano and has it cast the rest of the spell there. This was cheaper than making the range large enough to fit the whole volcano while you're on top.

I'm mostly guessing as to the effects of a volcano going off. Anybody here know better?

Limos
2009-05-10, 01:13 AM
Better hope your PCs never get a hold of this if you villain happens to have a volcano lair. This brings Scry-n-fry to a whole new level.

DanielLC
2009-05-10, 09:39 AM
Unfortunately, the big bad would probably escape in time.

I have an earlier spell that I don't think I've posted on here called Magic ICBM. It allows you to deal 20d20 damage within a thousand-foot radius of wherever the caster chooses. Probably not enough to kill a big-bad, but he better have a sturdy lair.

Activate supervolcano: the only spell that you have to increase the range by a factor of 200 to get it to "touch".

DracoDei
2009-05-10, 06:51 PM
Hmmm... doesn't fit the name since it isn't necromancy... but it does fit the effect I THINK (assuming that if the 3 way linkage was re-formed it COULDN'T command the volcano).

Adumbration
2009-05-11, 03:04 AM
By the way, there already exists a sort of epic spell to raise a volcano: in Sandstorm, the epic spell Volcano that makes a 500 ft tall and wide permanent volcano with DC 56. It's Conjuration (creation) [Earth, Fire].

lsfreak
2009-05-11, 05:38 PM
(This is mostly based off gleaning information over the last 15 years, and while I don't think I've screwed anything up too bad I make no promises).

The thinner the lava, the smaller the the explosions. Very thin lava, like in Hawaii, would be controllable by the caster, but there would be little ash flow, and the possibility of outrunning the lava. They tend to come from vents or fissures, rather than a typical cone associated with volcanoes, though not always (Erfworld's volcano would probably be of this type, or maybe slightly more explosive). You could use the standard 10d6 standing/20d6 submerged for damage.

The thicker the lava, the less flow and the bigger the explosions. Once you get into the size of St. Helens volcanoes, there is almost no lava flow, but rather the lava becomes ash and volcanic rock. Such eruptions have huge explosions and resulting pyroclastic flows (avalanches of gas, ash, and rock running several thousand degrees), which would be controllable by the caster but to, say 10 miles (and these can also go up small hills due to density), and would not be able to outrun (well... at 125 feet move speed, you actually could outrun it by going to the side >.>). I'd suggest 10d6 bludgeoning + 10d6 fire + suffocation for damage.

Once you get into Pinatubo-size volcanoes, there are major earthquakes along with the eruptions and weather changes on a global level, and the pyroclastic flows potentially go tens of miles. In addition, once the volcano stops erupting, the ash cloud can collapse on itself and form another pyroclastic flow.

Lots of ashfall means the potential for huge mudflows during the next rain. There's also the possibility of melting a summit glacier (which are found on many older, larger volcanoes) which would cause superheated mudflows (10d6+ fire damage a round). The ashfall itself would not be dangerous, or would be dangerous only to those who didn't cover their faces with cloth to filter out the dust.

In a very thin eruption like Hawaii there would be solid rock after the flow and be impossible to farm on (though the swath of lava would be relatively small, as well); depending on how thick the ash fell (say, a couple millimeters), crops might grow better the next few years due to how rich volcanic ash in in nutrients.

There would be one exception to the general rule that thinner lava tends to be less devastating in the grand scheme of things, and that's flood basalt. Explosive supervolcanoes and flood basalt eruptions are nowhere near what you state them as; they cause ashfall and/or lava flow over hundreds of thousands of square miles and drastic changes in weather on a global scale. I'd flat-out ban those, because if someone uses it it's basically "rocks fall, everyone dies." For a planet.

ericgrau
2009-05-11, 07:26 PM
I'd change the damage from instant death to 20d6 per round, plus 10d6 for 1d3 rounds after leaving, as normal for lava. If only stepping on shallow lava or similar exposure, the damage is 2d6 plus 1d6 for 1d3 rounds thereafter. Damage would start immediately upon eruption, so you'd have to have a decent HP pool to escape at all. But rumblings in the volcano might give someone with enough survival ranks (or the caster) a hint to get out before the eruption.

Zeta Kai
2009-05-11, 09:11 PM
The Spellcraft DC for the Activate Volcano is 196, but the DC for Activate SuperVolcano is only 130. By my calculations, that means that the Spellcraft DC for Activate SuperDuperVolcano will only be 64. :smallwink:

DanielLC
2009-05-11, 11:46 PM
My problem with the DCs is that I want the regular version to be like in the comic. As such, it can only require three casters, and must be done quickly. I'd like the supervolcano to be much more epic when it comes to casting, but as long as I use the log scale for the size, the DC is only a few hundred higher. When I put in even quasi-difficult casting, it now has a lower DC.

The supervolcano version wouldn't be something the PCs cast. It would be something they find out about near the beginning of casting and spend the whole campaign trying to stop.

I actually wanted the death stuff to be from falling ash, but I guess I didn't put that.

It seems rather pointless to actually put the damage for any of this. If you don't escape, it will kill you. If you do, it will be before it can hurt you. Should I say that people in the path of the lava need unconventional (i.e. magical) methods of escape, where people just near the volcano just need to leave?

The Mount St Helens page on wikipedia mentioned that the lava spread out like a fan, as such, running to the side would be worthless. Does anyone know how much it would spread out?

Cieyrin
2009-05-12, 09:22 AM
I don't think activating a volcano is inherently an evil action. Volcanoes form as part of the natural world and as such, though they may cause much destruction and death as a result, are not aligned one way or another. Causing a volcano to erupt is no more evil than casting a meteor swarm or hellball is, since it's all elemental, really. What you use it for may be evil but the action of doing so isn't.

Zeta Kai
2009-05-12, 10:52 AM
I don't think activating a volcano is inherently an evil action. Volcanoes form as part of the natural world and as such, though they may cause much destruction and death as a result, are not aligned one way or another. Causing a volcano to erupt is no more evil than casting a meteor swarm or hellball is, since it's all elemental, really. What you use it for may be evil but the action of doing so isn't.

QFT. Volcanoes, albeit initially very destructive, are ultimately beneficial for the environment. They enrich the soil with minerals better than any other natural method, & the provide a much-needed mechanism to aleviate seismic pressure. Without volcanoes, we've have less atmosphere, less topsoil, & continental plates threatening to explode. Sure, the assumed intent of making one blow right now is to kill some people, but that's the assumed intent of pretty much every evocation spell in existence. Making this spell [Evil] is like making every harmful spell [Evil] ("My gods, you were gonna actually kill somebody with that fireball?!? You wicked fiend!").

Oh, & making the Spellcraft DC for the upgraded version lower than the normal version is still utterly loony, IMO. Your explanation does nothing to change that. Sorry, but it's still borked.

DanielLC
2009-05-12, 05:25 PM
Volcanoes are part of nature, but so is death. That doesn't make it okay to go on murdering sprees.

If uncroaking the volcano just killed your enemies, I wouldn't call it evil. It kills and destroys everything nearby.

I was originally going to only make the supervolcano version evil, but I figured even the effects of a normal volcano are still extraordinarily destructive.

Cieyrin
2009-05-14, 10:43 AM
Death isn't inherently evil, either. Killing things is part of the natural order of life. The world would not function without someone or something dying so that another could live. Also, your statement about murdering sprees is basically what adventurers do all the time, destroying ecosystems and cultures, simply because they're there and they have loot. By your supposition, that essentially makes every paladin, cleric of good deities and every other adventurer into an evil character, because they prematurely end the lives of creatures that aren't necessarily out killing villagers and burning towns down but living in their environment, eking out an existence.

Also, about the volcano destroying just your enemies, almost every offensive spell doesn't know the difference between allies and enemies. If your buddy is in the thick with some ogres and you throw a fireball into the area, he's going to get hurt. The fireball doesn't care that he spent his life teaching orphaned children to read and saving kittens from trees, he's going to burn anyways. Does that make the fireball spell inherently evil, because it "could" hurt good people? NO! If I cast an Earthquake spell on a nearby village to destroy it and its inhabitants, that would be an evil action, not because causing an earthquake is inherently evil (no evil descriptor on the spell) but because you're destroying innocent lives (well, probably mostly innocent lives. Somebody in there probably is evil, whether it be the selfish merchant fleecing the villagers for far more than his goods are worth or the self-centered mayor, who lines his pockets while the farmers work the fields for little recompense).

In any case, what you do with the spell, your intent, is what makes it evil, not the act of doing so that makes it evil. Causing a tornado, earthquake, tsunami or volcano isn't an evil action, killing thousands with it could very well be. Them's my 2 coppers. Take as you will.

DanielLC
2009-05-14, 09:25 PM
The difference is that while a fireball can kill good people, a volcano of this size will.

Owrtho
2009-05-15, 02:55 AM
That's assuming there are any good people in range. The volcano could be in a completely deserted area except for the evil group your using it on. Also, even if one or two good people die, you could also be killing thousands of evil people and improving the nearby environment in the long run.

Owrtho

Amiel
2009-05-15, 03:39 AM
Nice spell, though you'll need to spell out in the (spell) description why the seeds include transport and foresee; you mention transporting material components but such is not actually evident within the spell description itself.
I'm not sure where you're going with the foresee seed. If you mean foretell when the activate volcano would be cast, I think that has to do with an entirely different spell.

Also, some additional seeds to consider: conjure (for the lava and associated effects and additionally for the additional crop yield) and energy (self-explanatory).


Also, IMHO, spells that create, shape etc energy types should be neutral in alignment since Nature is itself the epitome of neutrality.

DanielLC
2009-05-15, 10:31 AM
I improved the description.

The lava was already in the volcano.

There isn't an additional crop yield. There's a smaller one. It's caused by ash from the volcano blotting out the sun.

I disagree with the idea that nature is inherently neutral, but, in any case, controlling of nature is the very definition of artificial.

boomwolf
2009-05-15, 10:43 AM
Actually volcanic ashes are known as being very, very good fertilizers.

Nature is NOT neutral, but this spell is.
And manipulating nature by magic counts as nature spells. you don't "make" or "change" anything, you jest speed up natural processes. (EVERY volcano will erupt one day. if it becomes incapable of erupting-its no longer a volcano.)

Amiel
2009-05-15, 11:43 AM
I improved the description.

The lava was already in the volcano.
Nice
Rather, I was getting at 'activating' a dormant volcano. You need a precipitator to affect the required changes.


There isn't an additional crop yield. There's a smaller one. It's caused by ash from the volcano blotting out the sun.

Actually, volcanic soil is extremely good at improving crop yields.


Soils from Volcanoes
Why do people live on dangerous volcanoes? The main reason is the rich volcanic soil. People are willing to take high-risk gambles for the most basic things of life -- especially food.

Close to an erupting volcano the short-term destruction by pyroclastic flows, heavy falls of ash, and lava flows can be complete, the extent of the damage depending upon the eruption magnitude. Crops, forests, orchards, and animals grazing or browsing on the volcano's slopes or surrounding lowland can be leveled or buried. But that is the short-term effect. In the long run, volcanic deposits can develop into some of the richest agricultural lands on earth.


I disagree with the idea that nature is inherently neutral, but, in any case, controlling of nature is the very definition of artificial.



Nature is NOT neutral, but this spell is.
And manipulating nature by magic counts as nature spells. you don't "make" or "change" anything, you jest speed up natural processes. (EVERY volcano will erupt one day. if it becomes incapable of erupting-its no longer a volcano.)

Nature is amoral. Fire is just as likely to be purifier as destroyer. Water is just as likely to be suffocator as giver of life. Earth is just as likely to be entomber as provider of sustenance. Air is just as likely to be poisoner as breath of life.
Nature does not care about suffering or altruism, it merely is. Everything about Nature is within equilibrium; predator and prey, extinction and creation.


You're manipulating a dormant volcano by making it active, you're altering an active volcano by making it extremely volatile. Spells increasing degrees of severity do not inherently make them nature spells, rather they are spells.

DanielLC
2009-05-15, 03:37 PM
Nature is amoral. Fire is just as likely to be purifier as destroyer. Water is just as likely to be suffocator as giver of life. Earth is just as likely to be entomber as provider of sustenance. Air is just as likely to be poisoner as breath of life.

But a volcano this size is 100% likely to be the harbinger of destruction. There is a difference between something that can be used for evil and something that can only be used for evil.

Nature may be amoral, but the caster of this spell is not. They know what they're doing. If someone destroys a city to get rid of their target, that act is evil. There is no way to cast this spell that isn't evil.

Zeta Kai
2009-05-15, 05:41 PM
There is no way to cast this spell that isn't evil.

That's an incredibly close-minded view, & one that I take as a personally challenge. I can think of lots of non-evil ways to use this spell:
Cast it in the middle of a kingdom of evil beings (aberrations, orcs, drow, & other Always Evil races).
Cast it in an area only inhabited by evil dragons. You know, those same dragons that like to make lairs in volcanoes, & who drive away anyone in their right mind. Those guys.
Go to an uninhabited airless world (this is Epic here), & set this off a few times. Instant atmosphere; arguably Good.
And there is more where that came from. Hell, a Good deity may ask you to do this to set off the End of the World, so that it can be born anew (that's how one of my campaigns ended; every PC died, & every player cheered).

I just cannot understand where you're coming from on this issue. Killing things & taking their stuff is the cornerstone of D20 gameplay. Destructive power is NOT inherently evil is D&D. There are many great examples of what an evil spell is (the Book of Vile Darkness comes to mind), these just don't cut it. It may have evil consequences, but as long as a spell have some conceivably non-evil purpose (such as disintegrate), is not [Evil].

The only reason that I'm being such a nitpicker is that I like these spells. Or rather, I WANT to like these spells. The problems that I have with them are mostly to do with the design decisions made behind the scenes, namely the execution. Making a volcano go boom with a spell = Awesome. The needless design quirks that are demonstrated here = All Right, I Guess. Frankly, if this gets used at my table (knowing my players, they will eventually want to, if they know that they can), then I will have to edit it to make it useful & attractive.

Amiel
2009-05-15, 10:30 PM
But a volcano this size is 100% likely to be the harbinger of destruction. There is a difference between something that can be used for evil and something that can only be used for evil.

Nature may be amoral, but the caster of this spell is not. They know what they're doing. If someone destroys a city to get rid of their target, that act is evil. There is no way to cast this spell that isn't evil.

Are you perhaps confusing intent with inherent?

The intent to perpetuate vile and malicious purposes does not make it inherently so. For example, healing a blackguard so that villain may continue to torment villagers and offer them in sacrifice to his deity does not make the spell evil, even if it is used for evil purposes.
A fireball cast upon a village to destroy it, with intent to kill one or many, does not mean fireball is inherently evil. And fireball ranks among the most destructive spells.
The use of disintegrate to obliterate another does not mean the spell is evil.

Where spells are concerned, the intent (or alignment) of the caster matters not at all, hence why we have spells with the vile or exalted descriptor, as opposed to the caster.
This is why even the Good domain has blade barrier.

While the destruction is immense, the benefits far outweigh the "cost." Unless you wish to place specifics and restrictions whereby the ash acts as 'salt upon the earth,' rendering the very ground infertile for generations.

DanielLC
2009-05-15, 10:35 PM
If a spell can only be used for evil, I think it's safe to say that the spell is evil.

How could the benefits outweigh costs measured in cities?

Perhaps I overestimated the damage from a volcano, though the supervolcano version is definitely evil.

Owrtho
2009-05-16, 06:27 AM
There have been a few examples of how this spell could be used for good. Also, I'd note that I am unsure why you keep talking about cities being destroyed. I may be wrong, but i don't recall the spell mentioning that in must be used on volcanoes near cities. Nor do I recall the spell saying in summons or conjures a city to/on the volcano. Also, just as a few possible good uses:
Cities near active volcanoes can use the spell to control when the eruption occurs, thus allowing them to minimize the damage and lessen the chance of it occurring unexpectedly.
An area where the soil has become infertile can use the spell to make the ground more fertile (assuming you took note of how fertile volcanic soil is, even if the current version does not), most likely after an orderly evacuation.

Owrtho

Zeta Kai
2009-05-16, 10:11 AM
Also, there are certain spells that can ONLY be used to hurt people (& therefore potentially kill them), but are not [Evil]. For a prime example, I point to one of my favorites, Explosive Runes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/explosiveRunes.htm). It's theoretically possible to have this harm no one, but it's extremely unlikely, & I have yet to see such circumstances played out in-game.

So, I think we have proven beyond a reasonable doubt that a spell that has almost no use beyond harming others =/= [Evil]. I don't even know why I'm bothering to make this point. The OP seems hellbent on taking a perfectly good concept & mucking it up with flawed & unnecessary design choices. So far, none of our impassioned appeals/proofs/pleas/examples on the matter have made a dent. Nobody would even care if the core concept wasn't so cool, but alas, I can see that an improved version is unlikely to be made on our behalf.

What a waste. Why even post this here for potential critique? :smallsigh:

DanielLC
2009-05-16, 12:15 PM
I don't think continuing this argument will add anything to the discussion, or at least anything meaningful enough to justify not letting this thread die. If you wish to use the spell, you decide if it deserves the evil descriptor.

Lapak
2009-05-16, 11:55 PM
I'd change the damage from instant death to 20d6 per round, plus 10d6 for 1d3 rounds after leaving, as normal for lava. If only stepping on shallow lava or similar exposure, the damage is 2d6 plus 1d6 for 1d3 rounds thereafter. Damage would start immediately upon eruption, so you'd have to have a decent HP pool to escape at all. But rumblings in the volcano might give someone with enough survival ranks (or the caster) a hint to get out before the eruption.Damage is fine for the people in the lava flow, but anyone in the immediate vicinity of a major volcanic eruption will die. To give a point of reference, the most powerful nuclear weapon ever detonated was 50 megatons; the initial explosion of Krakatoa - which is on the very lowest end of the supervolcano spell as described, with a VEI of 6 - was 200 megatons. No one standing on the volcano when it goes off would survive.

Illven
2009-05-17, 10:16 AM
You need to give the super volcano the casting time of 100 days