OOTS #652 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Mando Knight]

Yay epic fights!

[DraxtonSmitz]

Yay epic fights!

Epic fight was DENIED!

[The Bookworm]

V is losing! It'd never be that easy for her/him to win! And Jephton didn't even get an epic spell!

[CapedLuigiYoshi]

So much for Jephton having a special Epic spell...

[D_Lord]

I knew it, Xykon is going to kill him.

[Kroy]

Ah crap. V's screwed.

[Istari]

This does not look good

[TheCountAlucard]

Wow... awesome job, Giant! :smallsmile:

[Pyron]

I gotta say I loved this strip. It says a lot of things.

Xykon's last line was pure GP.

[The Bookworm]

Tsukiko=Pigtail Chick!
How does Redcloak know what soul-splices are, anyway? Maybe they're more common than the fiends said they were!

[Alteran]

V is losing, as was to be expected, but I'll be a bit disappointed if Jepthon doesn't get to use an epic spell at all. I hope the souls still have a few higher level spell slots left, but with all of these negative levels I'm not sure what we should expect. An energy drain followed by a maximized energy drain will give them an average of 13 (5 + 8) negative levels. That's 13 higher-level spells lost unless I'm mistaken, which wouldn't surprise me. I don't have a great understanding of 3.X rules. On that note, could anybody tell me why V was unaffected by the energy drain? Also...did Xykon just use a 12th level spell slot? :smalleek:

As much as I'd hate to seem him lose so badly, I think it'd be kind of hilarious if V dies and then rises as a wight for Tsukiko to control. :smalltongue:

[Salty]

Holy ****! V is gonna get owned! I'm so glad I decided to check on the off chance that there was a new comic! Chilling!

[Prak]

interesting that the negative levels affect the souls and not V...

I do like Xykon's summation of V's poor choice.

hmmm... I wonder if V's going to take Xykon's advice and try to get the power of someone who "had the balls to stay in the game..." and we only know of one character like that...

I just got the "Immortal with the paint by numbers portait", anyone else?

there are a couple problems with Xykon's Energy Drain, but... meh.

[xyzzy]

That was, given the circumstances, the best way to change the odds in that battle. Good job, Giant :smallsmile:

[Pyron]

Tsukiko=Pigtail Chick!
How does Redcloak know what soul-splices are, anyway? Maybe they're more common than the fiends said they were!

My two cents

Either, Redcloak somehow studied about them, or was informed about them by the Dark One via cloak (after all the fiends have a no competitive clause with Evil Gods).

Or, a distant possibility, the fiends might have tried to sell the splice to Redcloak.

[Lira]

Oh dear.

I wonder how they know about Soul Splicing?

[homeosapiens]

1. Xykon doesnt seem damaged at all.
2. V is using blast spells which is BAD.
3. Splice guys suck now.
4. V can teleport outside with regular teleport, not inside, but outside shall be ok.
5. V probably doesnt stand a chance now.
6. Xykon is much more powerfull than we thought - how much lv spell slot is this? Geez...
7.I just hope he wont die.

V sucked so much in this... Pure crappiness.

[Moff Chumley]

:smallbiggrin: I love Xykon so much...


:xykon:

[Hadrian_Emrys]

The portrait line refers to Mr. Dorian Grey I think.

[Bremen]

Amazing...truly amazing. I hope Z finds a way to get O-chul out of there at least.

[Cleverdan22]

Woo, fun fight. But V is losing, hard. Looks bad.

[shadzar]

This does not look good

I disagree. Not a single pixel out of place. Shading is done well, all lines are crisp and clean, every spell is...oh wait. You mean about V being screwed...OK yeah that isn't looking to be a very positive turn of events for V.

[Green and Red]

Damn, i was hoping to se jephtons epic spell. V seems to be loosing, but somehow it was clear that he couldnt win.
Love Xykons speech at the end though



I just got the "Immortal with the paint by numbers portait", anyone else?

I thought about it for a few minutes now and still have no clue... tell plz

[Carteeg_Struve]

V. A tip.

When you've got a fool proof plan that you're about impliment to solve every problem, and the show is still midseason.... IT AIN'T GONNA WORK!

BSG Spoiler

Halfway through Season four of Battlestar Galactica...

"YEAH! We've found Earth!"
"It's a happy ending!"
"I don't know WHY there's ten episodes left in the season!"

*dead silence*

"Oh crap. This is not going to go well."

[holywhippet]

Maximised energy drain? How's that even possible? Regular energy drain is a level 9 spell. I know there are feats to drop the spell level of metamagic enhanced spell but can they really drop it that much? IIRC, maximised adds 3 spell levels.

[DBear]

Speaking of Pigtail Chick...where is she? :smallconfused:

[Calmness]

I dread the munchkin discussion that is to come... I think i'll stay far, far away from this thread.

Good comic though. It's nice seeing Xykon fight smart for a change.

[Deepkicker]

Oh God, it's great to have Xykon and Redcloak back!
Also, V is getting destroyed here. Come on, V! Don't go the way of your leader!

[homeosapiens]

V used electricity on a lich! That was Elan style of acting, not V's!!
How dumb is that?

[faith]

lol xykon is so right, damn 1 away from first page

[Zea mays]

These days I get knots in my stomach every time I see a new comic is up. :smalleek:
Oh no :vaarsuvius:!

Was Roy being prophetic when he said the elf will end-up just like him? (or is it just, you know, more foreshadowing)

[Elan man]

V is doomed. I'm pretty sure Xykons spell took away her soul splice (if that wasn't obvious already). Also how many hours does Xykon spend preparing spells I think it was eight or was that time working on magic items...

[[TS] Shadow]

Aww...I wanted Jephton to have his own epic spell. *sigh*

Anyway, this is an epic strip, with character development! From Xykon, of all people! Outside of SoD, he's had little to no development at all! And mixed into a cool action scene...that's just awesome.

[Ruduen]

Wow. Just... Wow.

Xykon's really giving one of his speeches this time around, and even if epic spells aren't involved, this still is a huge promise of epic-ness.

[Gamgee]

It's good to be right. I knew instantly that Xykon would own him with no problem. I can't believe people thought V was actually going to win ahahaha! So funny. Now someone somewhere ows me money on this.

[Pyron]

Maximised energy drain? How's that even possible?

Feat: Improved Spell Capacity.


Nice comic though. I like seeing Xykon fight smart for a change.

It also proves that Xykon, with his sledgehammer mentality, is actually smarter than Varsuvius.

Why would V cast a Chain Lightning on a Lich when she has an archmage with access to Master or Elements.

[Cracklord]

I think I just had an evilgasm....
Yeah Xykon, go the distance!
Go Redcloak too.

[Prak]

Damn, i was hoping to se jephtons epic spell. V seems to be loosing, but somehow it was clear that he couldnt win.
Love Xykons speech at the end though



I thought about it for a few minutes now and still have no clue... tell plz

Dorian Grey, as Hadrian said

[Yendor]

Heh. "You only have a king or queen showing."

Funny how Redcloak picked the Soul Splices so easily. Once in a century deal, huh?

[Zevox]

Sheesh, is V even thinking? Seriously, she cast Chain Lightning at a Lich. You'd think a high-level Wizard would know not to bother with lightning magic against a Lich.

Anyway, it also seems Xykon is more powerful than we thought. For him to be able to cast Maximized Energy Drain and epic spells both, he needs 4 epic feats minimum, which sets him at level 26.

And given Xykon's comment about V's concentration check, it seems that the benefits of the splice really are limited to spells alone.

Which means V is screwed here. This will end either with her capture or death. With Jephton and Ganoron now severely drained by that maximized Energy Drain, V cannot escape thanks to the Cloister - no more Epic Teleport. And all Xykon needs to do to win is cast a couple more Energy Drains, thereby sapping all V's high-level spells.

Well, I hope she survives. Much as she deserves the ass-whooping she's about to get for being so reckless, I'd rather see her grow from this somehow, not killed off.


Why would V cast a Chain Lightning on a Lich when she has an archmage with access to Master or Elements.
It was a Quickened Chain Lightning. The archmage is the Sorcerer, and Sorcerers can't cast Quickened spells. Therefore the lightning spell was from Ganoron, who can't change the element of his spells, since he isn't an Archmage. (Also, technically, we don't know if Jephton has that particular High Arcana ability or not. Though odds are he does, since its one of the most useful ones to pick, particularly for a Sorcerer.)

Zevox

[Toper]

So... Xykon just threw a 12th-level spell, and ate a 37d6 sunburst without a scratch. I guess he picked up a level or two from killing all those paladins twice, huh? And Redcloak hasn't even entered the fray. This epic battle is a bit more one-sided than I expected...

[Liwen]

Well unless Xykon took the epic feat that reduces the level of the metamagics he's using (I think it's called improved Metamagic) He did indeed used a 12th level slot, which means he has either invested a lot in Charisma and Spellcraft boosting magic items or has a few more levels above 21 than was previously suggested. Either way that makes him a fantastic threat.

Energy drain is being twice as powerful as it's supposed to be here. Xkyon drained a minimum of 20 levels and a maximum of 32 in just two rounds from the gestalt. This means V can't take him down in 2-3 rounds top anymore, which will allow Xykon to drain what is left of the souls if he hasn't done so already. Not a very original way to kill an epic spell caster, giving that's EXACTLY how he took out Durokan, but V is in big trouble.

Maybe O-Chul and MitD will save the day.

I too I'm surprised of Redcloak's knowledge of the soul splices. The fiends most probably lied to V, but it's possible Redcloak has a unique past experience with soul splices...

[Lawliet]

Heh, just as I thought, Xykon found a way to screw with the Splices. Let the ass kicking begin!

And did Xykon just used a 12th level spell slot? What the hell?

PS: I believe "Immortal with the paint by numbers portait" is a reference to Dorian Grey. Not sure though.

[afroakuma]

Fantastic. Xykon's always great, especially when he's busting out his favorite spell.

I assume V cracked off chain lightning to test for more traps and incapacitate known castery minions, rather than burn a more valuable spell.

[Prak]

Damn, i was hoping to se jephtons epic spell. V seems to be loosing, but somehow it was clear that he couldnt win.
Love Xykons speech at the end though



I thought about it for a few minutes now and still have no clue... tell plz

Dorian Grey, as Hadrian said

[Aaron]

Uh o. V is going to lose. The souls just lost all of their high level spells. V, put your pride aside for the moment and RUN!!!
Also, it looks like soul splices are much more common then the fiends said.

[Sir Shadow]

OK, hold on just one second... Why the heck would Energy Drain effect the two souls??? As far as I can tell, ghosts are undead << and undead are actually STRENGTHENED Energy Drain... I just want to know how/why what is happening is happening...

[GoC]

Use disintegrate you stupid elf!!:smallfurious:
Disintegrate+quickened disintegrate=Xykon gone

Though I suppose that wouldn't be dramatic enough for out dear author.:smallannoyed::smallsigh:

This has a real dues ex machina feel to it. V acting really really stupid and Xykon suddenly showing far more power than has been shown before (+5 levels, surely he'd have used a 10th-12th level slot in the battle against the ghost paladins?)?
I certainly hope we'll see some explanation for this soon.

[Cracklord]

As was predicted aeons ago (Or at least a week ago):


Xykon will wipe the floor with V, then force V to serve him. To quote Start of Darkness:

"I ripped off my own living flesh so that I wouldn't have to admit weakness. You're strictly little league compared to that. That right there? That's the difference between bonafide true Evil with a capital "E" and your whiny "evil, but for a good cause," crap. One gets to be the butch, and one gets to be the bitch — Bitch."

Surprisingly appropriate. Such a good line, too.

I was wrong. The only way V is getting out of this is in a coffin.

[SteveMB]

V used electricity on a lich! That was Elan style of acting, not V's!!
How dumb is that?

Score: "Feelings Of Pure Omnipotence" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html) 1 -- Rational Judgment 0

[Logalmier]

Xykon can use 12TH level spell slots?? Does this clinch the "Xykon Using Haerta as a Host" theory? Or has he gained more levels since we last saw him?

And how does Redcloack know about soul splices?


OK, hold on just one second... Why the heck would Energy Drain effect the two souls??? As far as I can tell, ghosts are undead << and undead are actually STRENGTHENED Energy Drain... I just want to know how/why what is happening is happening...

No, the souls aren't undead. They're just souls. That's what Xykons pointing out here, V's using the energy of two weaklings who weren't strong enough to do anything not to admit weakness!

[Warlord JK]

Well unless Xykon took the epic feat that reduces the level of the metamagics he's using (I think it's called improved Metamagic) He did indeed used a 12th level slot, which means he has either invested a lot in Charisma and Spellcraft boosting magic items or has a few more levels above 21 than was previously suggested. Either way that makes him a fantastic threat.

Energy drain is being twice as powerful as it's supposed to be here. Xkyon drained a minimum of 20 levels and a maximum of 32 in just two rounds from the gestalt. This means V can't take him down in 2-3 rounds top anymore, which will allow Xykon to drain what is left of the souls if he hasn't done so already. Not a very original way to kill an epic spell caster, giving that's EXACTLY how he took out Durokan, but V is in big trouble.
Maybe O-Chul and MitD will save the day.

I too I'm surprised of Redcloak's knowledge of the soul splices. The fiends most probably lied to V, but it's possible Redcloak has a unique past experience with soul splices...

The fact that its not original doesn't mean it doesn't work extremely well :smallwink:. To quote the Giant "just because it's cliche doesn't mean it doesn't work".

[spargel]

So... does this mean V's "four words" prophecy still hasn't been fulfilled yet?

[JeptCloak]

Sheesh, is V even thinking? Seriously, she cast Chain Lightning at a Lich. You'd think a high-level Wizard would know not to bother with lightning magic against a Lich.

Anyway, it also seems Xykon is more powerful than we thought. For him to be able to cast Maximized Energy Drain and epic spells both, he needs 4 epic feats minimum, which sets him at level 26.

And given Xykon's comment about V's concentration check, it seems that the benefits of the splice really are limited to spells alone.

Which means V is screwed here. This will end either with her capture or death. With Jephton and Ganoron now severely drained by that maximized Energy Drain, V cannot escape thanks to the Cloister - no more Epic Teleport. And all Xykon needs to do to win is cast a couple more Energy Drains, thereby sapping all V's high-level spells.

Well, I hope she survives. Much as she deserves the ass-whooping she's about to get for being so reckless, I'd rather see her grow from this somehow, not killed off.

Zevox

I hate to come off like a tool here, I like Xykon and I enjoy the story until now. Likewise, everyone conceded Xykon couldn't be destroyed. This was also fine. But as pleased as I am to finally be able to see them fight, this story is badly written, and a big letdown.

Let's examine the things they've needed to do in order to have Xykon get the upper hand:
1) V teleports in with no buffs, then inexplicibly he makes his first spell a Time Stop, in order to put on Buffs. This is a little far fetched. This is ok though, I could buy it, it just pales in comparison to the other swill we've been given.
2) Xykon is now lvl 26 or more apparently. Despite Durkon being able to dispel his magic, despite every way he has been portrayed to date, and despite his fights with Roy, Xykon is now lvl 26. Bad writing, not to mention effectively impossible.
3) V was promised power that dwarfed the greatest arcane user in the history of the multiverse. Now it's being portrayed as "splice doesn't stack", "Jephton is lvl 21?", Ganeron isn't nearly as good as we thought (no more Time Stops? WTF? That means no more Epic Teleports were available either, which makes it even more implausible, how the hell was V supposed to return after, given he has no knowledge of the type of barrier in the way?), which again undermines the story. Plus we get Xykon mocking the idea of powerful arcane users dying, despite the fact that a) he has no idea if these guys are Liches or what, and b) he himself in fact almost died, and was saved by a sheer miracle of Miko stupidity. So but for the grace of fortune, he would be burning in hellfire too.
4) Despite knowing in advance what spells they all have, he apparently didn't realise they didn't have spells he might need. I don't want to think about the stupidity of Ganeron having no more time stops for another moment really. Even with my near to non-existent knowledge of D&D I know that means he got powered down despite being a multidimensional conquerer.
5) People know about Soul Splices... yeh, ok. I'm past caring at this point. Btw, how is that Orange guy even alive, let alone unscathed... oh well, someone needed to be there for Redcloak to explain the plot idiocy away...

So, basically the comic bites, and I'm sorry I waited so long for it. I don't care about the chain lightning btw, that served multiple purposes, but the story has gotten absurdly inconsistent.

[Zevox]

OK, hold on just one second... Why the heck would Energy Drain effect the two souls??? As far as I can tell, ghosts are undead << and undead are actually STRENGTHENED Energy Drain... I just want to know how/why what is happening is happening...
Because souls =! ghosts. Jephton and Ganoron are just dead souls, not Ghosts.

Zevox

[The Blackbird]

Damn, V survived the first round, I owe Silverraptor 10 gp.

[Nevitan]

Wow, Xykon is a lot better at fighting than I thought he would be against V.

[Lupy]

Well, that was not the epic battle of wizards (and sorcerers) that I foresaw, or a clever trap by Redcloak.

It was much more satisfying deep down inside. I hope V gets the crap beaten out of it.

[GoC]

You know what would be really funny?
Having lost the soul splices V cast one of hir spells at Xykon (who won't have much hp left after the empowered sunburst) and kills him!:smallbiggrin:

[Cracklord]

So... does this mean V's "four words" prophecy still hasn't been fulfilled yet?

No, it means V has squandered his/her/its power, and is no longer going to win. V began things far more powerful then Xykon, but lost due to a pitiful straagey, lack of planning and an ego so massive it is due to collapse under the rate of itself and form a black hole.

Nobody ever beats the devil (Particularly three) in a deal. They always come off worse. V is proof of this. I mean, people say the fiends are trying to use V to open the gate. Why would they? They survived the last attack well enough (remember, Sabine is older then the universe). What they are doing is crushing every one of V's dreams and goals by giving V exactly what he/she wanted. They didn't demand his/her soul for all time, because they knew they'd get in anyway.

V had the power to win. But went about it in a stupid way, and look how that turned out.

As for does this mean Xykon has Haetra, no it doesn't. Xykon wins off his own back, not relying on someone else. If anyone winds up with Haetra, it will be Tsuiko...

Still, Redcloak should be the one to KO her (just to add insult to injury).

[Prak]

Damn, i was hoping to se jephtons epic spell. V seems to be loosing, but somehow it was clear that he couldnt win.
Love Xykons speech at the end though



I thought about it for a few minutes now and still have no clue... tell plz

Dorian Grey, as Hadrian said

[kpenguin]

Sheesh, is V even thinking? Seriously, she cast Chain Lightning at a Lich. You'd think a high-level Wizard would know not to bother with lightning magic against a Lich.

Why, exactly, would you expect V to know that? V didn't even know (or least thought it wasn't relevant) that Xykon had a phylactery when the entire Order thought they had defeated him. It is unlikely V would have the ranks in Knowledge (Religion) to know much of anything about liches.

[Ted The Bug]

I don't think the fight will end too soon. Even though V went down like a house of cards, O-Chul and the MitD are still kinda in the game. Well, at least tey have potential. Rich wouldn't waste all that dialogue.

[afroakuma]

I hate to come off like a tool here, I like Xykon and I enjoy the story until now. Likewise, everyone conceded Xykon couldn't be destroyed. This was also fine. But as pleased as I am to finally be able to see them fight, this story is badly written, and a big letdown.

I think you missed a few spots, though:


1) V teleports in with no buffs, then inexplicibly he makes his first spell a Time Stop, in order to put on Buffs.

S/he is making mistakes due to panic regarding the number of minutes hir soul will be exploitable by the fiends. S/he's also not in the best emotional state to be entirely rational at the moment.


2) Xykon is now lvl 26 or more apparently. Despite Durkon being able to dispel his magic, despite every way he has been portrayed to date, and despite his fights with Roy, Xykon is now lvl 26. Bad writing, not to mention effectively impossible.

You're forgetting the massive paladin spirit battle, which occurred after his fight with Roy. He's also had months since then to increase (and decrease with magic items) his XP score.


3) V was promised power that dwarfed the greatest arcane user in the history of the multiverse. Now it's being portrayed as "splice doesn't stack", "Jephton is lvl 21?", Ganeron isn't nearly as good as we thought (no more Time Stops? WTF? That means no more Epic Teleports were available either, which makes it even more implausible, how the hell was V supposed to return after, given he has no knowledge of the type of barrier in the way?), which again undermines the story.

Energy drain sucks away several levels at once, not to mention V has expended many spells already. S/he likely had another Epic Teleport stowed away, but it flew the coop (along with any remaining time stops) when the first energy drain hit.


Plus we get Xykon mocking the idea of powerful arcane users dying, despite the fact that a) he has no idea if these guys are Liches or what, and b) he himself in fact almost died, and was saved by a sheer miracle of Miko stupidity. So but for the grace of fortune, he would be burning in hellfire too.

Yeah, but that's consistent for his character.


4) Despite knowing in advance what spells they all have, he apparently didn't realise they didn't have spells he might need. I don't want to think about the stupidity of Ganeron having no more time stops for another moment really. Even with my near to non-existent knowledge of D&D I know that means he got powered down despite being a multidimensional conquerer.

No, it means he's expended a time stop already, wasted another, likely had at least one other spell among his 9th-level slots, and got energy drained of the remainder. He might still have 9th-level slots left, just no more time stop.


5) People know about Soul Splices... yeh, ok.

Any number of ways. Some of which have already been suggested.

[Aquillion]

Maybe O-Chul and MitD will save the day.
Is O-Chul at least 14th level? He may have gained a level or two from his recent tribulations.

A 14th-level or higher Paladin could, in theory, cast Restoration, which would remove all those negative levels at once... although he'd need the spell component from somewhere, and a holy symbol.

[Krytha]

I don't understand D+D, but it looks like people will be mad about this...

[Deliverance]

Rather disappointing.

Instead of an interesting, intelligent, or surprising fight, we got one serving of Stupid Railroad Plot.

Hopefully it will pick up in #653.

[Mauve Shirt]

Dammit, V. :smallsigh: Roy was completely right, he underestimated Xykon and he is not going to win.

[Zombie Nixon]

V was promised power that dwarfed any mortal spellcaster, wasn't she? Last time I checked Xykon isn't mortal.

Besides, she's lost about half of that power since.

[JeptCloak]

{Scrubbed}

[GoC]

I don't understand D+D, but it looks like people will be mad about this...

:smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

JeptCloak: Too much emotional investment.:smalleek:

[Logalmier]

You know what would be really funny?
Having lost the soul splices V cast one of hir spells at Xykon (who won't have much hp left after the empowered sunburst) and kills him!:smallbiggrin:

...I don't get it. Are you being sarcastic here? I don't see what would be funny about that.:smallconfused:

[Yuki Akuma]

2) Xykon is now lvl 26 or more apparently. Despite Durkon being able to dispel his magic, despite every way he has been portrayed to date, and despite his fights with Roy, Xykon is now lvl 26. Bad writing, not to mention effectively impossible.

Dispelling magic depends on a 'dispel check', the DC of which is equal to the caster level... a DC of 26 isn't hard to make. Durkon just rolled well.

Roy has only defeated Xykon once, and that was when he threw him into an artifact of instant death. During their rematch, Roy was toast as soon as Xykon bothered to get serious.


3) V was promised power that dwarfed the greatest arcane user in the history of the multiverse. Now it's being portrayed as "splice doesn't stack", "Jephton is lvl 21?", Ganeron isn't nearly as good as we thought (no more Time Stops? WTF? That means no more Epic Teleports were available either, which makes it even more implausible, how the hell was V supposed to return after, given he has no knowledge of the type of barrier in the way?), which again undermines the story. Plus we get Xykon mocking the idea of powerful arcane users dying, despite the fact that a) he has no idea if these guys are Liches or what, and b) he himself in fact almost died, and was saved by a sheer miracle of Miko stupidity. So but for the grace of fortune, he would be burning in hellfire too.

Who says Jephton is level 21? He could have been level 28 and lost 8 levels due to the Energy Drain for all we know.

Have you ever heard of the term 'spell slots'? Ganonron only prepared two Time Stops this morning. Epic spells don't use preparation - as long as he has epic slots left (which he could), he can still cast Epic Teleport.

They can't be liches. They're dead.

I don't see what him dying after having the balls to take the plunge into undeath has anything to do with anything.


4) Despite knowing in advance what spells they all have, he apparently didn't realise they didn't have spells he might need. I don't want to think about the stupidity of Ganeron having no more time stops for another moment really. Even with my near to non-existent knowledge of D&D I know that means he got powered down despite being a multidimensional conquerer.[/quote

Spell slots. He only prepared two. If you don't know anything about D&D why are you arguing rules?

[quote]5) People know about Soul Splices... yeh, ok. I'm past caring at this point. Btw, how is that Orange guy even alive, let alone unscathed... oh well, someone needed to be there for Redcloak to explain the plot idiocy away...

The Bearer of the Crimson Mantle gains the knowledge of the Dark One. The Dark One is a god.

Chained Lightning maxes out at 20d6 damage. That's an average of 70 damage. That's really not much. Secondary targets (such as orange dude) take half that - 35 damage. If he made his Reflex save, he'd take half again - 18 damage. That's not enough to kill a level 3 Fighter.

[SPoD]

I hate to come off like a tool here, I like Xykon and I enjoy the story until now. Likewise, everyone conceded Xykon couldn't be destroyed. This was also fine. But as pleased as I am to finally be able to see them fight, this story is badly written, and a big letdown.

Let's examine the things they've needed to do in order to have Xykon get the upper hand:

Let's.


1) V teleports in with no buffs, then inexplicibly he makes his first spell a Time Stop, in order to put on Buffs. This is a little far fetched. This is ok though, I could buy it, it just pales in comparison to the other swill we've been given.

V is already buffed with Mind Blank, Acid Immunity, Protection from Spells, Bear's Endurance, Shield, and Stoneskin from the dragon fight, which was less than 19 minutes ago. All of those spells have a duration far longer than that, especially when cast at this level.

Which means that what V was likely trying to do was lay down 2-5 Delayed Blast Fireballs and have them all go off when the Time Stop ended.


2) Xykon is now lvl 26 or more apparently. Despite Durkon being able to dispel his magic, despite every way he has been portrayed to date, and despite his fights with Roy, Xykon is now lvl 26. Bad writing, not to mention effectively impossible.

First, there has never been anything to contradict Xykon being at least level 26. Just because someone calculated a minimum level for him on a thread on this board doesn't make it true.

Second, even if I concede that he was not level 26 at the battle for Azure City, that fight was before he defeated the entire Sapphire Guard singlehandedly. That sort of thing tends to net you some XP, even at epic levels. Plus it's been at least 4-6 months, so who knows what he's been doing since then.


3) V was promised power that dwarfed the greatest arcane user in the history of the multiverse.

No, he wasn't. He was promised slightly more power than anyone had ever had before, but he has lost more than 1/3rd of that before this fight ever started.


Now it's being portrayed as "splice doesn't stack",

It's never been implied that they do. That's just what a bunch of fans assumed.


"Jephton is lvl 21?",

I don't know how you get this. I don't think you understand how Energy Drain works; you automatically lose your highest spell slot for each negative level gained. A 40th level sorcerer likely only has 4 or 5 epic spell slots, and would lose them first.


Ganeron isn't nearly as good as we thought (no more Time Stops? WTF? That means no more Epic Teleports were available either, which makes it even more implausible, how the hell was V supposed to return after, given he has no knowledge of the type of barrier in the way?),

He doesn't have Time Stops because he cast them. As a wizard, Ganeron needs to prepare spells. He only prepared two Time Stops.


which again undermines the story.

No, see, it doesn't undermine the story. It just undermines your preconceptions about what you thought was going to happen. Big difference.


Plus we get Xykon mocking the idea of powerful arcane users dying, despite the fact that a) he has no idea if these guys are Liches or what,

At the point he says it, he knows exactly what they are: dead souls.


and b) he himself in fact almost died, and was saved by a sheer miracle of Miko stupidity. So but for the grace of fortune, he would be burning in hellfire too.

No one ever accused Xykon of being humble. He's the sort of person to think that his luck is his own doing.


4) Despite knowing in advance what spells they all have, he apparently didn't realise they didn't have spells he might need. I don't want to think about the stupidity of Ganeron having no more time stops for another moment really. Even with my near to non-existent knowledge of D&D I know that means he got powered down despite being a multidimensional conquerer.

Your non-existent knowledge of D&D should learn more about it then before assuming so much.

[chiasaur11]

And Xykon proves he's in the big leagues even allowing in the forces of hell.

V's gonna lose. Bad.

Only question is if V is gonna survive this mess.

[GoC]

...I don't get it. Are you being sarcastic here? I don't see what would be funny about that.:smallconfused:

Pure irony and an ultimate "screw you" to the forumers.:smallbiggrin:

[David Argall]

Don't count V out here.

Now granted, the writer is vigorously twisting the rules to give Xykon a chance, but...
This is simply the start of the fight, where the eventual loser is often winning according to the principles of drama. It is highly likely V is going to win this fight.
a-the plot seems to call for V to be taken over at the next gate, which pretty much requires V to win now.
b-the contract with the fiends also requires V win here. She is fighting magic with magic, and he is supposed to be hugely above any previous or present spellcaster. So if V loses, that contract is void.
c-That energized Sunburst should give Xykon about 75 hp damage, meaning he is about half gone already. He can be taken out by good old Disintegrate.
But the point remains that if Xykon wins, he remains with no good reason to leave the city and we need to get the villains back on the road to the next gate.

[Mando Knight]

V may have a pair of Jacks in the hole, but Xykon's got a Royal Flush lined up.

SOD:
Apparently the Energy Drains sap levels equally from both of the splices... and will thus have a greater differential effect on V's spellcasting capabilities than it did in Xykon's battle with Dorukan.

[MickJay]

Let's examine the things they've needed to do in order to have Xykon get the upper hand:
1) V teleports in with no buffs, then inexplicibly he makes his first spell a Time Stop, in order to put on Buffs. This is a little far fetched. This is ok though, I could buy it, it just pales in comparison to the other swill we've been given.
2) Xykon is now lvl 26 or more apparently. Despite Durkon being able to dispel his magic, despite every way he has been portrayed to date, and despite his fights with Roy, Xykon is now lvl 26. Bad writing, not to mention effectively impossible.
3) V was promised power that dwarfed the greatest arcane user in the history of the multiverse. Now it's being portrayed as "splice doesn't stack", "Jephton is lvl 21?", Ganeron isn't nearly as good as we thought (no more Time Stops? WTF? That means no more Epic Teleports were available either, which makes it even more implausible, how the hell was V supposed to return after, given he has no knowledge of the type of barrier in the way?), which again undermines the story. Plus we get Xykon mocking the idea of powerful arcane users dying, despite the fact that a) he has no idea if these guys are Liches or what, and b) he himself in fact almost died, and was saved by a sheer miracle of Miko stupidity. So but for the grace of fortune, he would be burning in hellfire too.
4) Despite knowing in advance what spells they all have, he apparently didn't realise they didn't have spells he might need. I don't want to think about the stupidity of Ganeron having no more time stops for another moment really. Even with my near to non-existent knowledge of D&D I know that means he got powered down despite being a multidimensional conquerer.
5) People know about Soul Splices... yeh, ok. I'm past caring at this point. Btw, how is that Orange guy even alive, let alone unscathed... oh well, someone needed to be there for Redcloak to explain the plot idiocy away...

1. He's arrogant as usual, it's perectly in character for V to show up to the fight and then start casting everything. Plus, the TS+buffs worked perfectly on the dragon, he just tried to repeat the pattern.

2. We have no idea what level X. is, he might as well have some metamaigic feats.

3. no good spells left - notice that V already used up lots of high level slots earlier. V was told different things by three scheming devils - they told V what he wanted to hear, and he chose to assume that his interpretation of what the devils told him was true. Yes, the deal sounded sweet, but there were enough loopholes there already (for example, nobody actually promised V greatest arcane users in multiversed; he was promised aid of powerful souls, by definition, of guys who got permanently dead somehow). Xykon is mocking - sure, even if they were liches, then they got killed even despite the extra power. He almost died, but almost makes a big difference.

4. V didn't have time for 8 hours of calm rest during the souls could regain spells. Minutes of delay were driving him crazy already, and he might have lost the splice during that time anyway - not to mention, his debt to devils would have grown considerably.

5. Just proves that a) Redcloak and Xykon have some less-than-common knowledge (not very surprising) b) one or both of them was offered similar "once in a century deal" but they refused, preferring to rely on their own power.

Chain lightning is a nice way of clearing away the mooks that might otherwise interfere in the epic battle; other spell might have worked better, but maybe that was the best one V had at the moment.

edit: as expected, ninjas were there first. :smalltongue:

[afroakuma]

Tasteless ranting.

I remember you from the V vs. Xykon thread. You're the one who kept insisting there was no other possibility than V winning.

All the arcane power in the world won't make up for planning and a bunch of spells that don't allow saving throws.

[Cracklord]

Well, what level does this make Soon Kim? He took out Xykon without a scratch!
On a more depressing note, if you dislike this comic, good for you. I hope your complaining fills an otherwise empty portion of your life. But tell someone who cares. If you want to discuss what happened, this is the place for you. If you want to whinge about how it didn't turn out like it happened, go write fanfiction alternate endings or something. But don't clog up the boards, we have server problems as it is.
Anyway, apparently the levels do not stack, V has V's standard ability scores, skills and feats, or else V wouldn't have stuffed up the concerntration check. But why didn't the energy drain effect V?

[Grunthos]

I find myself hoping that Xykon hasn't actually stripped the splices away completely. He'd be doing V a favor if he ended the splices at this point, since V clearly hasn't got enough sense to ever end them voluntarily, and the tar baby just keeps getting stickier and stickier. But if the splices are still extant, and Xykon puts V in such a bind that V can't dismiss them... how many days (weeks, months, years) could the fiends rack up here?

By stupidly overextending, V has now created an opportunity for far, far worse damage to V's own objectives. Pride goeth before a fall, and this particular fall could continue for quite a while yet.

[GoC]

Dispelling magic depends on a 'dispel check', the DC of which is equal to the caster level... a DC of 26 isn't hard to make. Durkon just rolled well.

No. The DC is 10+CL. Or 36. Totally out of Durkon's league.

[Khatoblepas]

Counterpoint:



1) V teleports in with no buffs, then inexplicibly he makes his first spell a Time Stop, in order to put on Buffs. This is a little far fetched. This is ok though, I could buy it, it just pales in comparison to the other swill we've been given.
V did that with the Dragon, too. He wanted to Time Stop when he was there so he could gauge what kind of buffs he needed. Generally, that's what happens, in my experience playing Wizards.


2) Xykon is now lvl 26 or more apparently. Despite Durkon being able to dispel his magic, despite every way he has been portrayed to date, and despite his fights with Roy, Xykon is now lvl 26. Bad writing, not to mention effectively impossible.

It's been months, as far as I recall. Redcloak states that they get attacked a lot, and since they win, they must get a lot of XP for it. Besides which, Xykon was probably 19-21 at the beginning of the strip. Five levels isn't that hard to attain for an evil sorcerer.


3) V was promised power that dwarfed the greatest arcane user in the history of the multiverse. Now it's being portrayed as "splice doesn't stack", "Jephton is lvl 21?", Ganeron isn't nearly as good as we thought (no more Time Stops? WTF? That means no more Epic Teleports were available either, which makes it even more implausible, how the hell was V supposed to return after, given he has no knowledge of the type of barrier in the way?), which again undermines the story. Plus we get Xykon mocking the idea of powerful arcane users dying, despite the fact that a) he has no idea if these guys are Liches or what, and b) he himself in fact almost died, and was saved by a sheer miracle of Miko stupidity. So but for the grace of fortune, he would be burning in hellfire too.
They are the "greatest spellcasters" that are in the Lower Planes. As Xykon points out, these are small fry compared to the ones who are immortal.

Ganonron is a wizard. He prepares his spells. He might have other 9th level spells, but he certainly doesn't have Time Stop anymore. Jephton being around level 21-24 is plausable. He's projected as the weakest of the lot. Again, greatest spellcasters who didn't become immortal.

And as for Xykon being hypocritical... that speaks for itself. Xykon knows how to push people's buttons. And he does so. Even when it's hypocritical, because he doesn't care.


4) Despite knowing in advance what spells they all have, he apparently didn't realise they didn't have spells he might need. I don't want to think about the stupidity of Ganeron having no more time stops for another moment really. Even with my near to non-existent knowledge of D&D I know that means he got powered down despite being a multidimensional conquerer.

He prepares his spells. As said above.


5) People know about Soul Splices... yeh, ok. I'm past caring at this point. Btw, how is that Orange guy even alive, let alone unscathed... oh well, someone needed to be there for Redcloak to explain the plot idiocy away...

You have to be pretty high level to hang around Xykon and not die. Besides, 10d6, max to orange guy, if Xykon or Redcloak were the primary target.

[JeptCloak]

I know enough to know it's bad storytelling to suggest Xykon went from 21-22 all the way up to 26 based on one battle against a bunch of guys he should be able to beat, and a guy he couldn't beat and had to run away from, plus 4 months of sitting on his ass. Epic lvls are supposed to be very hard to gain.

Ganeron and Jephton aren't being portrayed as promised. They're being portrayed as complete nothings compared to Haerta, which in itself breaks the agreement of the Fiends, which is that his power would dwarf any mortal arcane user (Haerta being mortal). Instead, they apparently gave him the power of "Haerta, plus 2 other guys tacked on who will make you more versatile but who are basically irrelevant to Haerta's power". That's a gyp.

The story sucks, and I'm going to go out now and try to forget it as much as possible. I'm sorry I got into this comic. The story is a total let down.

[afroakuma]

Well, what level does this make Soon Kim? He took out Xykon without a scratch!

He was something Xykon wasn't prepared for. Not to mention, the Order of the Scribble were all notably high-level. And he had a template of some sort on him.


But why didn't the energy drain effect V?

I would assume it was treated as draining "soul energy" or some such, hence why it went across the splices before tapping the reservoir that the fiends would probably like to keep untouched. Since energy drain threatens permanent level loss, this has a bit more validity.

JeptCloak: We get it. Thank you. You can quit now.

Seriously. You are like this close to basically trolling this discussion thread.

[SPoD]

No. The DC is 10+CL. Or 36. Totally out of Durkon's league.

Unless, as mentioned, Xykon gained levels between killing Roy and now. If Xykon was level 24 then, a 14th level Durkon could have dispelled him on a roll of 20.

[Y'nokhs]

1:Wow, that was a bit...one sided. Looks like again Xykon was more powerful than anyone gave him credit for. Just proves metarules trump rules: Xykon is the BBEG and thus will always be powerful enough to put up a fight, especially if its 1v1. Awww...I was hoping MITD would get involved (and revealed).

2: If the souls are already dead...and Xykon drains away all their life force...what happens to them?

3: As for Redcloak knowing about the soul splices...the fiends said that this specific, 3-for-1 deal was new, not the technology of Soul Splicing itself.

4: Looks like Mr. Conqueror-of-one-thousand-worlds isn't all he's cracked up to be - Xykon has shown that he could conquer this world through magical and military strength alone, the snarl is just the sure and easy path. Maybe Ganoron's conquests included the Demiplane of Fluffy Bunnies, the Dimension of Old, Sick 1st level Kobold Commoners, and the Alternate Material Plane where Magic was Never Discovered.

5:V isn't thinking. The time pressure is really getting to her. She's so desperate to use her ULTIMATE ARCANE POWER! tm that she is just throwing random magic at the problem. Thus the Chain Lightning, the Not Casting Buffs Before Teleporting In, and the general overconfidence. She didn't even ask, "hey Ganoron, how many Epic Teleports (which I've been using like they were cantrips) y'got left? Anyone have any good anti-lich spells?"

6: Xykon's got a point. If they are the most powerful casters on the lower planes, all that means is they couldn't cut it and died. Hypocritical? Yes, but come on, this is Xykon we're talking about

[Elemental_Elf]

Let's examine the things they've needed to do in order to have Xykon get the upper hand:
1) V teleports in with no buffs, then inexplicibly he makes his first spell a Time Stop, in order to put on Buffs. This is a little far fetched. This is ok though, I could buy it, it just pales in comparison to the other swill we've been given.

Given that the reason V went off on this trip solely because he couldn't wait 10 minutes says a lot for his state of mind.



2) Xykon is now lvl 26 or more apparently. Despite Durkon being able to dispel his magic, despite every way he has been portrayed to date, and despite his fights with Roy, Xykon is now lvl 26. Bad writing, not to mention effectively impossible.

A long time has passed since Xykon's battle with Dorukon. Further, nearly 9 months have passed since the battle of Azure City. A lot can happen in that time, who know what Xykon's been up to.


3) V was promised power that dwarfed the greatest arcane user in the history of the multiverse. Now it's being portrayed as "splice doesn't stack", "Jephton is lvl 21?", Ganeron isn't nearly as good as we thought (no more Time Stops? WTF? That means no more Epic Teleports were available either, which makes it even more implausible, how the hell was V supposed to return after, given he has no knowledge of the type of barrier in the way?), which again undermines the story. Plus we get Xykon mocking the idea of powerful arcane users dying, despite the fact that a) he has no idea if these guys are Liches or what, and b) he himself in fact almost died, and was saved by a sheer miracle of Miko stupidity. So but for the grace of fortune, he would be burning in hellfire too.

Given that the Fiends lied about Durkon's location when they were convincing V, we can assume they most likely oversold the benefits of the deal. Plus, I'm sure quite a bit of the power the Fiends had was put into the Necromancer's basket.


4) Despite knowing in advance what spells they all have, he apparently didn't realise they didn't have spells he might need. I don't want to think about the stupidity of Ganeron having no more time stops for another moment really. Even with my near to non-existent knowledge of D&D I know that means he got powered down despite being a multidimensional conquerer.

Given that V prepared spells for the express purpose of slaughtering the Black Dragon and her kin, as well as getting the whole party back together, he may not have prepared for an epic duel with Xykon. Further V has been using a ton of epic spells, many of which could have been Ganeron's. Plus, Ganeron's abilities were sold as a Conjurer known for teleporting whole armies, not necessarily combat.


5) People know about Soul Splices... yeh, ok. I'm past caring at this point. Btw, how is that Orange guy even alive, let alone unscathed... oh well, someone needed to be there for Redcloak to explain the plot idiocy away...

Xykon is privy to many arcane secrets, including the Snarl Rifts. Whose to say Dorukon's library, or any of the other Wizards Xykon has murdered, had a book detailing Soul Splices.

Further, one cannot forget there is a possibility Xykon currently has a splice and has a way of hiding it. This theory would definitely account for Redcloak's and Xykon's knoweldge of the Splices as well as Xykon's sudden surge in power. Perhaps Xykon made a deal with the same fiends in exchange for a favor...


So, basically the comic bites, and I'm sorry I waited so long for it. I don't care about the chain lightning btw, that served multiple purposes, but the story has gotten absurdly inconsistent.

You're being WAAAY too closed minded and moody. It's an ongoing narrative, you can't expect to have all the answers all at once. :smallwink:

[spargel]

So V's pretty screwed. The story hates him, his own ego hates him, and his INT doesn't do much outside of game mechanics.

[Logalmier]

But why didn't the energy drain effect V?

It was explained in comic that the soul-splices took the energy drains, leaving V unscathed. By the looks of that last one though, I would say that Xykon's fried the souls pretty bad, to the point where he's affected V some.

[yilduz]

But why didn't the energy drain effect V?

Well, energy drain starts at the most powerful and works its way down, right?

I'm assuming it didn't effect V because the souls that are spliced with V are much more powerful than V him/herself. Therefore, the spell would have drained from them before it got to V's powers. So, V didn't notice anything because nothing was drained from V.

edit: Gah, I was beaten to it.

[Zevox]

Let's examine the things they've needed to do in order to have Xykon get the upper hand:
1) V teleports in with no buffs, then inexplicibly he makes his first spell a Time Stop, in order to put on Buffs. This is a little far fetched. This is ok though, I could buy it, it just pales in comparison to the other swill we've been given.
V did have buffs - if you recall, at least some of them were no dismissed since the battle with the Dragon, since Shapechange was still active moments ago. And none would have worn off by duration at this point, since each lasts a minimum of 21 minutes (more, for things like Mind Blank).

And its not far-fetched at all. Its obvious V isn't thinking straight here - the mere fact that she decided to go off and face Xykon without any planning, simply trusting that her splices would make her powerful enough to easily beat him, shows that. But there are other uses for Time Stop as well. Remember how she cast a Delayed Blast Fireball during the one she used against the Dragon, and it detonated after the Time Stop wore off? Yeah, that works just as well anywhere else, and if Delayed Blast Fireball happens to be one of Jephton's spells, she could cast several of them during a Time Stop to do a lot of damage.


2) Xykon is now lvl 26 or more apparently. Despite Durkon being able to dispel his magic, despite every way he has been portrayed to date, and despite his fights with Roy, Xykon is now lvl 26. Bad writing, not to mention effectively impossible.
The only one of those it is exclusive with is Durkon being able to dispel his Improved Invis. And in any event, we know Rich doesn't play D&D rules to the letter anyhow, so he could just as easily have fudged that one.


3) V was promised power that dwarfed the greatest arcane user in the history of the multiverse. Now it's being portrayed as "splice doesn't stack",
First off, that could easily have been hyperbole - nothing prevents the IFCC from lying to V, especially since her mind was pretty addled at that point, as Quarr pointed out when he noted that their proposed alternative wouldn't work. Second, as I pointed out to you repeatedly elsewhere, caster level does not determine the power of a caster past level 25. Number of high-level and epic spell slots does. And someone with the power of 3 epic casters at their disposal has more of that than any one caster could hope for. And finally, what here indicates that the splice's caster levels don't stack? I see nothing which would do so.


"Jephton is lvl 21?",
And what on earth would give you that idea?


Ganeron isn't nearly as good as we thought (no more Time Stops? WTF? That means no more Epic Teleports were available either, which makes it even more implausible, how the hell was V supposed to return after, given he has no knowledge of the type of barrier in the way?), which again undermines the story.
You appear not to understand how this works. Time Stop is a 9th-level spell. An epic-level Wizard like Ganoron gets 5-6 of those, intelligence score depending (and an intelligence of 36 is necessary for 6 slots, which is not easy for a human to reach, but is doable for an epic one). No Wizard is going to fill up all those slots with Time Stop, because then he has no uses of other 9th-level spells available. So its very realistic for him to have only 2 or 3 castings of it to begin with (heck, personally, if I were playing an epic Wizard, I might not even prepare more than 1. Its usually better for a wizard to have a variety of spells at his disposal rather than many castings of any one spell). Assuming the one cast vs the Dragon was his, its very easy for him to be out of them now. Especially since Energy Drain inflicts negative levels, which causes any spellcaster affected by them to lose one of their highest-level spells per negative level as though they had cast it, which makes it possible he lost a Time Stop to the Energy Drain, if he was low on level 10+ spells to begin with. Which also, incidentally, explains the loss of any remaining Epic Teleport spells.


Plus we get Xykon mocking the idea of powerful arcane users dying, despite the fact that a) he has no idea if these guys are Liches or what, and b) he himself in fact almost died, and was saved by a sheer miracle of Miko stupidity. So but for the grace of fortune, he would be burning in hellfire too.
So Xykon isn't allowed to be ignorant of the irony of his own statements? He is an arrogant SOB, you know.


4) Despite knowing in advance what spells they all have, he apparently didn't realise they didn't have spells he might need. I don't want to think about the stupidity of Ganeron having no more time stops for another moment really. Even with my near to non-existent knowledge of D&D I know that means he got powered down despite being a multidimensional conquerer.
I'm not even sure what you're talking about here. Of course Ganoron was powered down - that's what Energy Drain does. And its pretty plain V went in there without a plan. I mean, she just teleported off as soon as she realized Roy wasn't going to be resurrected for a few more minutes.

Also, you admit to having a near non-existent knowledge of D&D, yet nearly all your objections are rules-based? Doesn't that strike you as rather contradictory?


5) People know about Soul Splices... yeh, ok. I'm past caring at this point.
Not impossible. Redcloak in particular does have special knowledge from the Dark One via the Crimson Mantle. And Xykon is an epic Sorcerer and able to cast epic spells, which means he must have a high Knowledge (Arcana) score.


Btw, how is that Orange guy even alive, let alone unscathed...
Easily. Chain Lightning does half damage to anyone but its primary target, so he only took 10d6 damage. Painful, but a decent level will allow any character to survive it. Especially if he got lucky and rolled a 20 on his save. (As for "unscathed," clearly he isn't - he had to take damage from it. The Giant just didn't bother drawing any wounds.)

Zevox

[Gez]

Atta boy! Get him, Xykon! :xykon: :xykon: :xykon:


Yeah, I don't like Vaarsuvius much. :smallwink:

[Ron Miel]

I knew it, Xykon is going to kill him.

Never. Xykon is going to beat him to a pulp, then leave him alive to wallow in humiliation. Much more cruel that way.

[mizzim]

...wow. nice lack of planning on V's part.

I think that xykon and redcloak are in on the soul splice, and we should be getting back to the demons soon.

actually, now that I think about it, I think that xykon's in on it, but not redcloak. redcloak was clearly suprised to discover the splices, and xykon made a deal with the demons sometime while he was in azure city.

[Porthos]

Would Sunburst (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/sunburst.htm) be considered a positive energy attack? If so...

SoD Spoilers:
Xykon picked up a ring which sheilds him from positive energy attacks. Quote, "I was in no danger whatsoever" from an attack that was going to hurt him.

Since the Order never found that ring AND since Xykon has been seen with equipment that he had before Durkon's Gate exploded (Durkon's Headband to be precise) then this might explain why he appears undamaged from a Nuke Undead Spell.

Now a sticking point is that the description of the spell doesn't specifically say that it's a positive energy attack. But it does sound like one. Seems like this was actually tight writing to remember a detail like that.

Now we just have to see if Xykon makes a comment to clue in the non-SoD readers. On the other hand me might just be left to presume that Xykon has protections out the wazoo, and being protected from Sunburst is one of them. After all, Xykon is already on record as saying that he's been pumping out magic items (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0543.html).

Seems like he might just be a bit more prepared that some people thought. :smallyuk:

========

And a point about V's tactics. Just because V has access to Epic Level Magic, it doesn't neccessarily mean that he knows how to use it effectively. It takes lots of adventuring to know which tactics work and which don't.

To put it another way, one can give an Uzi to a teenager, but a Navy SEAL with a handgun will probably still be able to take him down. That's where experience (no pun intended) comes into play.

So this isn't that unrealistic. It's just that too many people (myself included) just bought into the Raw Power Trumps All Other Considerations argument.

Still, this is just Round One. V might still be able to pull this out. :smallwink:

[3Power]

Wouldn't Xykon have to be level 27? Epic feat at 21st plus one every three levels later, so 24 and 27, no? But I'm surprised Xykon went for Metamagic spell slots instead of Epic spells*, considering he's a sorceror. (And I assume he took 3 expanded spellcastings, since I think this is the first time we've even seen him cast metamagic, and I can't imagine him having the four feats required for improved metamagic.

*Or he's level 30, and V's utterly screwed.

Come to think of it... Is cloister due more to the headband or to Xykon? because if he needs to have the epic spellcasting feat to cast Cloister, Xykon has to be at least level 30.

[Warren Dew]

Either, Redcloak somehow studied about them, or was informed about them by the Dark One via cloak (after all the fiends have a no competitive clause with Evil Gods).

Or, a distant possibility, the fiends might have tried to sell the splice to Redcloak.

That would explain why Redcloak knows about the soul splices. What I want to know, though, is why he thinks Xykon knows about them. That combined with the empowered energy drain has me tempted to believe the Haerta theories.

And while the splices might have been "chumps who didn't have the balls to stay in the game", Vaarsuvius's soul selling is something even Xykon hasn't done.

I've actually been thinking for a while that spliced Vaarsuvius has Xykon beat in both the "raw power" department and the "how far you're willing to debase yourself before feeling bad" department, which are Xykon's main shticks. Thus far, Xykon has been immune to karmic retribution, but if he's ever to be hit by it, Vaarsuvius would be the right one to dish it out.

Of course, he still has to make it to Girard's gate.

[Porthos]

Its obvious V isn't thinking straight here

This might also be explained by the fact that V still hasn't tranced in months. V was showing an appalling lack of judgement before the splice. The only question in my mind was whether or not V's mind was refreshed along with his spell slots (which would get rid of whatever massive penalties he's carrying for not trancing).

It appears not (especially since V missed again with a Touch Attack). Sure V looks better, comparatively speaking. But his actions are showing that he is still under the mental fog of not trancing.

This could go a long way to explaining why V has an Idiot Ball right now. :smallsmile:

[GoC]

So V's pretty screwed. The story hates him, his own ego hates him, and his INT doesn't do much outside of game mechanics.

:smallbiggrin:
On that note I'm upgrading todays comic from "annoying" to "eh".

[SPoD]

Wouldn't Xykon have to be level 27? Epic feat at 21st plus one every three levels later, so 24 and 27, no? But I'm surprised Xykon went for Metamagic spell slots instead of Epic spells*, considering he's a sorceror. (And I assume he took 3 expanded spellcastings, since I think this is the first time we've even seen him cast metamagic, and I can't imagine him having the four feats required for improved metamagic.

*Or he's level 30, and V's utterly screwed.

Come to think of it... Is cloister due more to the headband or to Xykon? because if he needs to have the epic spellcasting feat to cast Cloister, Xykon has to be at least level 30.

You're forgetting that an epic single-classed sorcerer gets a bonus epic feat at 23rd and 26th levels. A 26th-level Xykon therefore has 4 epic feats.

[Sarcose]

re: Complaining

NO. No no no no no. Dear god, but I have never seen a more sorry set of complaints by a supposed intelligent community in my life.

This is not bad storytelling, not at all.

Point 1: Arrogance. What did you expect to happen, exactly? V is predisposed to arrogance already, he is given to "feelings of omnipotence," he is nervous and running out of time, and I can't stress this enough: he has an inflated sense of self worth. To be quite honest, I would be shocked and appalled if V had shown intelligent critical thinking at this point, because the several strips preceding this were building up an idiotic and arrogant V that was going to gloriously lead himself into failure all caused by an intentional lack of foresight because he has a base level of stress derived from the question of whether his abilities have any worth, which had up until a certain point been all but answered with "no," and then he was shown time and again to not be able to prove that worth, with every single instance of his use of arcane power then subverted - his mate recoiling in horror being the worst of it and quite possibly the most mind-breaking. To reiterate: I would be one of the ones crying "poor storytelling" if V had actually displayed all that critical thinking people seem to take for-granted.

Point 2: Preparedness. With the above in mind, for what reason could you possibly fathom that he has the mental faculties to consider a need to prepare for an inevitability? V is not a player, s/he's an actual person in the context of this story, and if there really are players playing these characters they are amazingly good roleplayers.

Point 3: Level of power/V. What? "V should wipe the floor with Xykon!" No, V should not.

Let me list for you all the narrative elements that have been established prior to this re: V's level of power
DnD ruleset - spells must be prepared.
DnD ruleset - spells have a limited number of uses due to the previous setup. Spells are defined by their own kind of "ammo"
Narration - V has been flinging spells willy-nilly already

With those three in mind, for what reason could you possibly conceive that a fraction of V's original power is even left? You could munchkin-deliberate all you want, but the possible unknown variables that the author has left up in the air are giving him a saving throw against your plot inconsistency bull****.

Point 4: Xykon's level of power - I don't see where we've even been paying attention to Xykon enough in the story to know ANY limitations to his power. That's the whole point of the bad guy.

Point 5: Hypocrisy? Seriously? You are criticizing people for logical inconsistencies they display in their dialogue. So, you don't like the way Xykon thinks - alright, that has nothing to do with the storytelling itself. Xykon is not an author avatar for Rich as far as we know. There is no reason to believe that what Xykon is saying must necessarily be logically cohesive, and it's foolish to criticize the objective storytelling on this basis.

/raaaaaaaaaaaaage

[SPoD]

've actually been thinking for a while that spliced Vaarsuvius has Xykon beat in both the "raw power" department and the "how far you're willing to debase yourself before feeling bad" department, which are Xykon's main shticks.

Vaarsuvius already feels bad about what he/she has done, hence his/her attempts to hide the details from Haley/the rest of the OOTS. Heck, he/she felt bad about it as he/she was doing the selling.

If Xykon sold his soul, he'd be wearing a t-shirt reading "Ask me about the great deal I got on my soul, suckers!"

[Porthos]

So V's pretty screwed. The story hates him, his own ego hates him, and his INT doesn't do much outside of game mechanics.

I'm guessing the moral of the story is: No matter how crappy your day was, make sure you get a good night's trance sleep. :smalltongue:

[MoelVermillion]

Wow V is getting a lot more trashed then I thought he would, though I would have thought the sunburst would be leaving more damage marks on Xykon. V is probably going to die here but I don't think it will bog the story down as much as Roy's death did, partly due to the rest of the order being reunited.

Oh and for everyone who is wondering how Xykon casted that maximized energy drain, is there any reason why he couldn't have used a metamagic rod? I mean he has been making magic items for the last few months and as a high level spell caster he'd probably be likely to pick the rods.

[PId6]

Use disintegrate you stupid elf!!:smallfurious:
Disintegrate+quickened disintegrate=Xykon gone

Though I suppose that wouldn't be dramatic enough for out dear author.:smallannoyed::smallsigh:

This has a real dues ex machina feel to it. V acting really really stupid and Xykon suddenly showing far more power than has been shown before (+5 levels)?
I certainly hope we'll see some explanation for this soon.
I'd say it's more of a Diabolus Ex Machina (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DiabolusExMachina). The battle just feels way too contrived (which I guess shouldn't be that surprising given the string of events that have frustrated V lately, but this is getting to be too much).

Xykon just happened to have magic traps installed exactly where he was at that time when he has never done any such thing before? Redcloak just happens to know about the soul splices even though it's supposedly something never tried before? Why is V fighting so badly when she knows that Disintegrate, her favorite spell, does so much more damage and would exploit Sorcerers' weak fort save? Just saying V is not thinking straight feels like lazy plotting contrived to make her lose.

Why isn't Xykon damaged AT ALL by the Sunburst (no scratches) and how did he manage to gain so many levels when there was no indication that he's had any opportunity to gain xp since the the last time we saw him battle? The Sapphire Guard probably wasn't that high level or they wouldn't of been taken down so easily (they were certainly way below epic) and Xykon wasn't the one that defeated the ghosts. It becomes even more contrived if he just gains a bunch of levels off-panel without any mention of it and suddenly reveals it in this fight.

Sure, it's possible that he was always so high level to begin with, yet if he had been so powerful in the first battle against the Order and the Battle of Azure City, then why was he so easily beaten the first time and almost beaten the second? So either he was always powerful and fought way too stupidly the first two times but smart this time, or he was always weak and only managed to become stronger this time around without any mention of it. Either way, feels a little inconsistent.

I would be fine if V loses in an actual battle rather than just a series of misfires and bad circumstances. I certainly hope these contrived happenings lead somewhere story-wise. It would be entirely pointless if all of this soul-splice business is just to use V as a Deus Ex Machina to teleport people around a bit and then kill her off afterwords. And what is it with setting up the epic spells for each soul and then not letting Jephton cast one? Just to disappoint? I will be very sad if the next comic contains nothing more than "I win!" *gloat* *gloat* "Here's how I know about the soul splice..."

[Lord Seth]

I. Love. Xykon.

[FoE]

I'll note that, while the Ball Lightning didn't hurt Xykon, it did destroy those three magic traps that would potentially have zapped Vaarsuvius again. V couldn't really afford to lose another round. (Not that it matters now, of course. :smallwink:)

V had power that would have dwarfed the greatest arcane magic-user in the history of the entire multiverse. The operative word is "had." V lost one of her Soul Splices, remember? And Haerta was the most powerful of the three. Add in the Energy Drains that Xykon has hit her with, and V has been downgraded to merely "semi-phenomenal, nearly-cosmic power," to rob a quote from Aladdin.

As to how Redcloak and Xykon know about Soul Splices ... well, they're both high-level spellcasters who are both nearly a century old because neither of them now age (or sleep, in Xykon's case). They've had plenty of time to do thousands upon thousands of hours of research, and that's exactly what they would have done, since they've been searching for info on the Gates for a long time.

Anyways, the "two chumps" line is priceless.

[Zevox]

If Xykon sold his soul, he'd be wearing a t-shirt reading "Ask me about the great deal I got on my soul, suckers!"
This made me chuckle. And its so true. :smallbiggrin:

Also, another thing to show V isn't thinking straight: she cast a Dimensional Anchor at Xykon, even though mere seconds ago Ceilia told her that he has an anti-teleport ward over Azure City. Were she listening and actually thinking, she'd know that she didn't need to bother blocking him from escaping that way.

Zevox

[Blackeagle]

Rather disappointing.

Instead of an interesting, intelligent, or surprising fight, we got one serving of Stupid Railroad Plot.

Actually, we get a fight that's entirely consistent with Xykon's fight against Dorukan. Pounding arrogant Wizards into negative level territory is Xykon's specialty.

I think you were expecting this to be V's fight, but it isn't. V came in unprepared, while Xykon (thanks to Redcloak) was prepared.

However, there is yet hope. Xykon seems to be relying on the same strategy whenever he fights a Wizard. If V can make it out of this somehow (whether escaping or getting resurrected) Vwill have the the necessary knowledge to prepare hirself well for their next confrontation.

[DSCrankshaw]

V used electricity on a lich! That was Elan style of acting, not V's!!
How dumb is that?
I think there's good odds that V has very few ranks in Knowledge (religion). Notice the contempt in which he holds clerical magic in comic #650. Knowing an undead creature's traits is a Knowledge (religion) check, so I'm not surprised V didn't know. I'm kind of surprised Jephthon knew--Haerta was the only one I expected knowledge(religion) from.

[Knight13]

Holy Unjustified Plot Rage, Batman!

Wow people, take a deep breath and cool off a little. If you take a second look you might realize that your complaints are not based on anything resembling logic, reason or bad storytelling. The only things that happened here are that V is, as usual, blinded by power (though not as much power as he thinks) and Xykon is not as stupid as he seems. Neither of these are news.

I'm not going to bother refuting most of the individual complaints, since several people have done that already.


Ganeron and Jephton aren't being portrayed as promised. They're being portrayed as complete nothings compared to Haerta, which in itself breaks the agreement of the Fiends, which is that his power would dwarf any mortal arcane user (Haerta being mortal). Instead, they apparently gave him the power of "Haerta, plus 2 other guys tacked on who will make you more versatile but who are basically irrelevant to Haerta's power". That's a gyp.
I have no idea where you're getting this from. Ganeron and Jephton were quite powerful as well, but some of their spells were already expended before the battle started and Xykon just drained a lot of their remaining power with that Energy Drain.

Also, I don't know why people seem to think that Ganeron conquered multiple planes all by himself. He most likely just used Epic Teleport to bring armies in and they conquered them for him.

[Bilgore]

3) V was promised power that dwarfed the greatest arcane user in the history of the multiverse. Now it's being portrayed as "splice doesn't stack", "Jephton is lvl 21?", Ganeron isn't nearly as good as we thought (no more Time Stops? WTF?

You are assuming, of course, that the soul splice was V's ultimate power and not just some misguided attempt at cashing in early. It's obvious everyone guessed the wrong 4 words.
"I'm borrowing Mr. Scruffy!"

[Porthos]

You know...

Part of this forum melted down after Durkon used Control Weather to destroy Leeky's Trees.

(cries of impossible)

Part of the forum melted down when Miko escaped the forcecage that imprisoned her.

(cries of impossible)
Part of the forum melted down when O'Chul survived the destruction of the Castle, but Miko didn't.

(cries of impossible)

Part of the forum melted down when the Ancient Black Dragon escaped a forcecage.

(cries of impossible)

And in most (though not all) of those cases, there was an explanation (in comic even if it was just a throwaway line) that showed that The Giant was already ahead of all the complaints.

You'd think that people would get used to the comic achieving Six Impossible Things Before Breakfast.

Guess Not. :smalltongue:

[Nightgaunt]

Good Comic...

@ All,

I kinda just assumed X was using Sudden Maximize feat (Complete Arcane & Miniatures Handbook Source). Which would allow him to pull off a stunt like that once a day without you being able to guess his level... Basically just lets you maximize a spell once a day, 0 prep.

Not sure if someone pointed that out, didn't see it.

Great story.

EDIT: Oh look a source (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/news/20041104news#Sudden)! (Read Under Sudden)

[king korath]

Finally Xykon fights somebody again. And how is Xykon preparing traps, unexpected. He a lich sitting on a giant portal of doom, hoards of adventures must be coming to off him. Also he is capable of planning ahead, remember Xykon's moderately escapable force cage (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0376.html), and traps to make castors lose a surprise round would be a sensible precaution. Also it seems that V gained spell slots from the splice, but not new levels or skills, so his spells should be underpowered compared to the spells of someone who got them normally, and since the resistances on most spells depend on level, Xykon should have a good chance of shrugging of some or most of the damage. Finally it is not unreasonable for Redcloak to know of the soul splice, he is a evil cleric after all.

[3Power]

You're forgetting that an epic single-classed sorcerer gets a bonus epic feat at 23rd and 26th levels. A 26th-level Xykon therefore has 4 epic feats.Ah, I see. I assumed that since sorcerors get no bonus feats, unlike wizards, that wouldn't change in epic levels. My mistake.
I'm gonna guess Haerta somehow warned Xykon ahead of time, if only because of the necromantic connection. My second guess is, as others have stated, crimson mantle knowledge, and my third is that the fiends approached Xykon first.

[Y'nokhs]

I'd say it's more of a Diabolus Ex Machina (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DiabolusExMachina). The battle just feels way too contrived (which I guess shouldn't be that surprising given the string of events that have frustrated V lately, but this is getting to be too much).

Xykon just happened to have magic traps installed exactly where he was at that time when he has never done any such thing before? Redcloak just happens to know about the soul splices even though it's supposedly something never tried before? Why is V fighting so badly when she knows that Disintegrate, her favorite spell, does so much more damage and would exploit Sorcerers' weak fort save? Just saying V is not thinking straight feels like lazy plotting contrived to make her lose.

Redcloak was the one who suggested the traps - as he said, "you'd be surprised how often people pop in to try to kill you when you're doing an evil scheme." Xykon probably went along to shut him up. The fiends said they offered soul-splices once in a century. To a lich, a century's not all that long, and that dosn't preclude other entities using Soul Splices. V is stressed, tiered and has been wasting magic like nobody's business (a disintegrate on the harmless undead dragon head? An EPIC SPELL to shut someone up?) This is not contrived.


Why isn't Xykon damaged AT ALL by the Sunburst (no scratches) and how did he manage to gain so many levels when there was no indication that he's had any opportunity to gain xp since the the last time we saw him battle? The Sapphire Guard probably wasn't that high level or they wouldn't of been taken down so easily (they were certainly way below epic) and Xykon wasn't the one that defeated the ghosts. It becomes even more contrived if he just gains a bunch of levels off-panel without any mention of it and suddenly reveals it in this fight.

Sure, it's possible that he was always so high level to begin with, yet if he had been so powerful in the first battle against the Order and the Battle of Azure City, then why was he so easily beaten the first time and almost beaten the second? So either he was always powerful and fought way too stupidly the first two times but smart this time, or he was always weak and only managed to become stronger this time around without any mention of it. Either way, feels a little inconsistent.

As has been mentioned, he's been cranking out magic items for months, and is at full strength. A metamagic rod could have enabled the Maximized Energy Drain, and he could have something providing resistance against Sunbeam. During the fight with Soon and the Sapphire Ghosts, he had no idea what Deathless were. He didn't know how they would be affected by energy drain, or his other signature spells - for all he knew it would empower them. And Soon was an Epic Paladin. V just grossly overestimated his own abilities and grossly underestimated Xykon's cunning.

[Abraxes]

Quick question... MitD, what sort of darkness are we talking here? Apart from the obvious plot darkness :)

Not sure how to use that spoiler button, so threw my potential spoiler at the bottom.


In regards to Jept, he reminds me so much of a d&d player I used to know who spent his entire on-line life whining about how he didn't like the way things were going because they didn't meet his expectations - honestly, get over yourself, you won't exactly be missed, you'll just be missing out.

Some responses to comments in the thread - re-read a few things in the new page, after reading this forum thread - for instance, why use lightning? If you read the spliced soul comments, only one of them was aware liches were immune to electricity, giving strength to the comments that V probably didn't know either. And I do love Xykons comment, as powerful as these spliced souls might be, they weren't powerful, or ballsy enough to avoid being sent downstairs.


<spoiler>
I'm just reading Sunburst as a spell, and the 80-ft.-radius burst along with "Sunburst dispels any darkness spells of lower than 9th level within its area" intrigues me, since guess who's in a box but also in the same room and has just been discussing origins with a certain paladin.
</spoiler>

[Badgercloak]

Wow, V is getting own out there. Someone should have used their superior Int to come up with a strategy. :smallbiggrin:

[Shadeogrey]

Hahahah!!!
This looks good, with more goodness to come!
I hope V is finished off in the next comic :)

hmmm.
there are people hoping he/she won't buy a farm?
Whose side are they on, anyway???

[Zevox]

Ah, I see. I assumed that since sorcerors get no bonus feats, unlike wizards, that wouldn't change in epic levels. My mistake.
Everyone gets bonus feats at epic levels. Well, every single-class character, anyway. Multiclass characters are up the creek without a paddle on that one, because you actually need 22/23/24/whatever levels of one base class to get epic bonus feats.

Zevox

[Azzurus]

So damn good.. need more..

[jidasfire]

I think Xykon's true power is being able to make his opponents fight like idiots. He should have lost to Fyron, he should have lost to Lirian, he should have lost to Dorukan, but in every case, his opponents hold back or fight like they've never heard of a lich in a magic-heavy setting where everyone seems to know D&D rules. He would have lost to Soon except for Miko's idiocy, though that is canon so it's forgivable. In this case, while it does make sense for V to be a little off his/her game, the lack of preparation and poor spell use is pretty appalling. I'll wait to see where it all goes, but watching Xykon luck his way out of every conceivable comeuppance every time, and not merely that, but to do so without even the chance of losing, is kind of disheartening.

[Shadowbane]

I've missed Xykon. So much.

[RebelT]

The story sucks, and I'm going to go out now and try to forget it as much as possible. I'm sorry I got into this comic. The story is a total let down.



Does this mean that you're going to disappear and stop whining?


Because that would be great.


Jeez.

[Glorendil]

Damn... V got owned in this one. I hope he survives.

One thing disturbs me, and that's how unintelligently V fights right now.
Maybe now that he's been humbled, he'll start using his brain.

To save his balls right now he should cast Maze (for crying out loud, that seems obvious... and it's such a good spell!) on Xykon as first priority. No saving throw, no magic resistance, no Xykon for several rounds. That's an 8th level conjuration, and he has a master conjurer with him that I doubt he got so drained as to lose all 8th level slots.

Next is either another Maze or Power Word Stun on RedCloak, and teleport away (if possible).

[Da'Shain]

Yeah. I figured Energy Drain would not be a good thing for the soul splice. But I didn't think that it would drain from both souls simultaneously; that just sucks, majorly, even though it makes perfect sense.

So both souls now have a minimum of 10 lost levels and 10 lost spells (maximized = 8, plus one more with a minimum of 2 from 2d4). That pretty much means no more epic spells; heck, likely no more 9th level spells if they were under 30 to begin with. V is totally screwed, even if V wasn't before.

The Time Stop could easily have won him the battle, though. Several Delayed Blast Fireballs would have not only likely taken out/severely weakened Xykon, it would also have killed pretty much everyone else in the room AND probably destroyed the phylactery (which V may or may not know exists; my money is on him knowing after Xykon survived last time) around Redcloak's neck.

It can seem like a Diabolus Ex Machina, I suppose. But, as Xykon points out, a real high-level spellcaster would have had the ranks in Concentration to defeat those traps and win anyway. And Xykon has been noted as spending 8 hours a day every day making magical items while he's in Azure City, so it's perfectly believable that he's had time to not only finish his own projects but also take on a few requests like Redcloak's.

Anyway, I was fairly sure this would end badly for V. Right now I'm hoping that Ganonron still has some normal Teleports left, and that teleporting out of the area isn't covered by Cloister. If V gets back, V'll pretty much have to drop the splice, as it's almost useless now.

[linkhyrule5]

A mistake I see a lot of people making is: Cloister doesn't stop teleport, scrying, etc outward, only inward, according to Celia. Pretty much as long as the splices exist, V can cast Teleport or Greater Teleport just fine.

[ericgrau]

Woot for epic fights. This is already starting out good, can't wait for more. And Vaarsuvius is finally getting his come-uppance for trusting in raw arcane power to the point of rash behavior. I wonder if that ghost comment by Xykon was a reference to Soon (sp?). He did almost take down Xykon.

And honestly I've been as annoyed about rule-breaking as the next guy, but that's always been second in importance. There's nothing in this page bad enough to scream out at me as blatantly wrong, if even wrong at all. Heck, if anything V is now at a disadvantage because it stopped. So suspension of disbelief is maintained and that's good enough for me.

[seanearlyaug]

Blowing concentration check:
It may not be the soul splices, it just may be exaustion. If you recall, this whole thing started when V was minus 'sleep' equivalent.

Sean

[Skeppio]

All I can say is, V got pwned big time.

[ericgrau]

Blowing concentration check:
It may not be the soul splices, it just may be exaustion. If you recall, this whole thing started when V was minus 'sleep' equivalent.

Sean

That and the "while casting 10th level spells" comment seemed to me to be a blatant hint to Redcloak that Vaarsuvius is actually low level and getting power from an outside source. That's why Redcloak figured out the soul splice so fast. Vaarsuvius' concentration check and other stats are probably unaltered, while only spellcasting is boosted by the splice.

[Lamech]

V needs to run NOW. She's lost 12 caster levels, so she may not even have the caster level to cast level 8 spells. I do believe that V lost all thoes precious buffs when a soul splice ended.


To save his balls right now he should cast Maze (for crying out loud, that seems obvious... and it's such a good spell!) on Xykon as first priority. No saving throw, no magic resistance, no Xykon for several rounds. That's an 8th level conjuration, and he has a master conjurer with him that I doubt he got so drained as to lose all 8th level slots.
And Xykon should have Celerity. And you know not be a straight sorc. But people don't optimize in OotS.

[Warren Dew]

Vaarsuvius already feels bad about what he/she has done, hence his/her attempts to hide the details from Haley/the rest of the OOTS.

I could have sworn that Vaarsuvius agreed to the deal with the fiends, as I said, "before" feeling bad about it in front of Haley, not afterwards. Thanks for pointing out that the deal hasn't actually happened yet!

Start of Darkness

If Xykon sold his soul, he'd be wearing a t-shirt reading "Ask me about the great deal I got on my soul, suckers!"

Sure. And he'd conveniently forget mentioning his regrets, just as he's tried to rub out the memory that he almost instantly regretted being turned into a lich because it meant he couldn't taste coffee - and that chasing after the snarl is just a booby prize Redcloak offered him to help him rationalize why he's willing to continue his unlife as a lich.


Why isn't Xykon damaged AT ALL by the Sunburst (no scratches)

Note that neither Redcloak nor the hobgoblin are showing any damage, either. Either the author forgot to put the wounds in, or all those magic items Xykon has made are helping to absorb or protect against the damage so far.


Redcloak was the one who suggested the traps - as he said, "you'd be surprised how often people pop in to try to kill you when you're doing an evil scheme." Xykon probably went along to shut him up.

True. The fact that this is the first time they've been tripped kind of indicates that not a lot of people have been popping in, thus calling into question any level gains since taking over Azure City, though.

[Ranzunar]

V's lack of preparation and bad spell tactics may probably be due to the fact that he/she has little to no ranks in Knowledge (religion). Even if becoming a lich is another way to achieve potential arcane mastery over all, it is still an undead creature. Sunburst was a decent idea but better spells would be very helpful. I just hope that O Chuul can escape in the insanity, possibly with MiTD with him.

[Da'Shain]

A mistake I see a lot of people making is: Cloister doesn't stop teleport, scrying, etc outward, only inward, according to Celia. Pretty much as long as the splices exist, V can cast Teleport or Greater Teleport just fine.Ah, I didn't remember if that was the case or not. Thanks. So, V still has a good chance of escaping, if he realizes she's going to lose and isn't too prideful to admit it to himself. Which I'm rooting for; V's been on a downward spiral, but I don't want her to die. And the way Xykon is, he'd probably let V go, getting in a parting few soul-crushing words.


Blowing concentration check:
It may not be the soul splices, it just may be exaustion. If you recall, this whole thing started when V was minus 'sleep' equivalent. Yeah, but the fiends reference the "rejuvenating effects" of the Soul Splice (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html), which might include a full rest (and certainly provided one of the benefits of a full rest, namely, fully recharged and rememorized spells).

[aka Argent]

So the lesson today is - Ultimate Power means Zip if you don't have the skills to wield it. It's like leaving a Baby an H-Bomb, sounds dangerous but in actuality they can be stopped by anyone, even a toddler.

V lost because V couldn't make a concentration roll and started scrambling instead of using whatever thin plan s/he had in mind. Now was that because of levels or because of penalties from lack of rest? Doesn't matter, really, V's basic premise this entire time has been Power trumps all and Xykon is illustrating that the premise is flawed in several ways including what exactly is Ultimate Power.

I agree we can't really judge what X's level is because he pumps himself up with a shattering amount of magic items that skew his abilities higher and he's not afraid to use them, unlike the average PC who tends to want to keep everything in reserve in case they REALLY need it later. MetaMagic items are especially important to casters and should be expected to be stockpiled, especially by Xykon. A Maximize item would instantly turn his 9th level spells into lvl 12 slot using epics (until used up).

[Boogastreehouse]

I hate to come off like a tool here...
Could have fooled me...


I remember you from the V vs. Xykon thread. You're the one who kept insisting there was no other possibility than V winning.

Ganeron and Jephton aren't being portrayed as promised... That's a gyp.


I feel completely an utterly gypped by the retroactive rewriting of the story this comic has engaged in. Maybe it's just my all nighter studying, but I could vomit on the author right now for cheating every reader in this way. I was actually about to order SoD as a birthday present to myself, but I don't think I will now. I'll just get pissed off again. Xykon is at least lvl 26 and apparently any powerful magic user who has died before is a *****, even one with a multidimensional empire. Good things Liches never die... oh wait... No epic teleports left... priceless... That's about as politely as I can describe my feelings now. I'd contract to the Fiends to help me give the author a piece of my mind, but apparently they can lie when they make a deal too. Another great bit of storytelling.

F&%$ you.

Wow. Oh wow. I have never wished more for the rules of conduct on this forum to be more relaxed than I'm wishing now.

What is your deal here? Why are you taking this so personally? Things aren't playing out the way you envisioned them, so now the whole world is coming to an end? Are you only reading this strip so that you can predict the outcome? How does this work in your head—if you can foresee the events successfully, does that make you feel smarter than Rich? While you're sitting at your computer reading webcomics, he's crafting a story from scratch that has enthralled and entertained a huge number of people (yourself included!) and now you feel that he's cheating you, because he didn't give you the opportunity to smugly gloat because you had it all figured out? Because he didn't give you the opportunity to feel superior to him?

I wish that I could speak more strongly. Your pointless, self-aggrandizing attacks are the sort of hurtful venom that can make a creative person become discouraged; make them loose their enthusiasm for their art. Don't try to do that to someone, just to make yourself feel elevated in some way.

This forum is absolutely loaded with lurking know-it-alls and self-important crybabies, and I've never felt such a strong desire to use insults and profanity on any of them. Somehow you alone have the distinction of making me wish the rules against flaming weren't so strict.


The story sucks, and I'm going to go out now and try to forget it as much as possible. I'm sorry I got into this comic. The story is a total let down.

'Bye. You won't be missed.

[Warren Dew]

Yeah. I figured Energy Drain would not be a good thing for the soul splice. But I didn't think that it would drain from both souls simultaneously; that just sucks, majorly, even though it makes perfect sense.

I think it's most likely that the energy drain is being split between the two souls, rather than costing them each the full value.

[Blackeagle]

<spoiler>
I'm just reading Sunburst as a spell, and the 80-ft.-radius burst along with "Sunburst dispels any darkness spells of lower than 9th level within its area" intrigues me, since guess who's in a box but also in the same room and has just been discussing origins with a certain paladin.
</spoiler>

Remember, at the moment (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0651.html), he's not really the monster in the darkenss, he's the monster in a crate.

[Porthos]

Yeah, but the fiends reference the "rejuvenating effects" of the Soul Splice (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html), which might include a full rest (and certainly provided one of the benefits of a full rest, namely, fully recharged and rememorized spells).

We already know that V can get spells recharged without trancing tho (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0623.html). The fact that V is making pretty egrious errors in judgement after the soul-splice does lend credence to the idea that he's still suffering from lack of trance, wouldn't you say? :smallsmile:

[nonamearisto]

While it is a good entry, I generally hate it when this happens; an character with enough power to "destroy a planet" and take a blast which could do the same is beaten when someone hits them a few times. This happens a lot in Dragonball Z. Same thing with Xykon being defeated so easily by Roy the first time... even though he came back.

Not to say that it isn't good, but with V's effective level being as high as it is, I'm surprised that any of these spells are even AFFECTING him, even without Haerta spliced to him.

V might still have the power to teleport out... otherwise he is in serious trouble. I can see him being "saved" by the fiends who bind his soul to them for 3x the amount of time he was had the splice. It also seems like the splice is better-known than the fiends let on; Redcloak recognized it immediately.

At least he used his power to save his family, move the fleet to a safe location, teleport the OOtS to the fleet, destroy the bone golem... and yes, commit an act of partial genocide.

I also have a VERY hard time believing that anyone with enough power to kill off 1/4 of the Black Dragon population with a single spell population could be deemed a "loser." That is one place where this issue falls flat on its face.

Of course, if V managed destroy Xykon, Redcloak, and save the day, the comic would come to an effective end. So, I guess his failure to defeat the enemies here and now is necessary...

[Knaight]

Of course, Xykon doesn't know the details, and is way too arrogant to care. That's a big part of the reason he is as likable(there is no way that is spelled right) as a character as he is. The only thing V had on Xykon in the first place was time stop, and Redcloak was able to stop that, in a brilliant way nobody on the forums thought of. Xykon earned gloating rights immediately after the energy drain, and pulling ahead. Its brilliant storytelling, with no plot holes at all.

[Baidas Kebante]

This forum is absolutely loaded with lurking know-it-alls and self-important crybabies, and I've never felt such a strong desire to use insults and profanity on any of them. Somehow you alone have the distinction of making me wish the rules against flaming weren't so strict.

To make you feel a bit better, look closely and laugh at the "retroactive rewriting" comment. Even though we all know full well that Rich plans stuff like this in advance and even though we should also understand that this fight was definitely plotted out when the whole 'deal with a devil' arc started (and not that long ago, either), he still believes that this page is a retcon.

Which tells me that when this arc started out, the guy had a "clear" idea of how the whole plot would turn out and now that reality and imagination conflict, his only explanation for this is a retcon. But then again judging how he interpreted the whole deal, it seems V wasn't the only one duped by marketing weasel words.

[Blackeagle]

Not to say that it isn't good, but with V's effective level being as high as it is, I'm surprised that any of these spells are even AFFECTING him, even without Haerta spliced to him.

Given how he blew that concentration check, it's pretty clear spliced-V isn't really an uber high level spellcaster, he's a spellcaster somewhere in the teens with a pile of extra spell slots (and perhaps a higher caster level). Saves, AC, HP, are probably no higher than he had before the splice.


I also have a VERY hard time believing that anyone with enough power to kill off 1/4 of the Black Dragon population with a single spell population could be deemed a "loser." That is one place where this issue falls flat on its face.

Remember, this is Xykon we're talking about. If one of the gates gets torn open and the Snarl gets out, he'd probably call the god-killing abomination a looser because it wasn't smart or powerful enough to avoid being trapped by the gods.

[NakedCelt]

My guess:Xykon will wipe the floor with V -- then, at the point of victory, MitD will intervene at O-Chul's prompting, soon enough to save V's life but not soon enough to affect the outcome of the fight. What happens then is up for grabs. I imagine it will end with Xykon and Redcloak porting out in the direction of Girard's Gate. V will finally be forced to realize that even with "ultimate arcane power", ze will never be able to solve the world's problems alone. V will return to the Order, sans Soul-Splice and therefore sans ability to chase Xykon at a snap of the fingers.To those for whom anything less than ULTIMATE POWER PWNS TEH BADDYZ YEAH!!!11!!!!1!!one!eleven! is a "let-down" -- it's people like you who are responsible for Matrix Revolutions.

[nonamearisto]

If there is any lesson to be learned, its that knowledge needs to be learned; it cannot be given. V has the power of an archmage, but has the skills of a mid-to-high level spellcaster. If he had used maximized fireballs or changed shape to a dragon (not sure if there was room, though), this fight would be over, or at least, the enemies would be hurt much worse.

I also noticed that there was no damage shown for the sunburst, although it obviously hurt Xykon.

It is also not too late for the spliced souls to try one last spell, or perhaps V, Gananron (Zelda anyone?) and Jephton could somehow pool their power to use an epic spell? Maybe they still have a bit of power left? One well-placed "disintegrate" spell might be enough to kill Redcloak at least... not sure if it can destroy the phylactery. That alone might be enough to shake things up.

[Da'Shain]

I think it's most likely that the energy drain is being split between the two souls, rather than costing them each the full value.Really? Because if that were the case, I would think the drain was also split with V. I assumed that the Energy Drain worked on the two souls first because they're V's main source of magical power right now, and worked on them both because they're two targets in one body; thus, draining one without the other would not hit all the targets in the single body, but draining both while leaving V unaffected would still seriously screw V. Of course, that may be needlessly convoluted thinking, and it's perfectly possible the drained levels are split.


We already know that V can get spells recharged without trancing tho. The fact that V is making pretty egrious errors in judgement after the soul-splice does lend credence to the idea that he's still suffering from lack of trance, wouldn't you say? True, true. I stand corrected, then; V is likely still suffering from extreme trance deprivation.

[Quorothorn]

All's I have to say is that I knew Xykon was going to break out Energy Drain...but knowing he can Maximize it is just frightening. That's a minimum of 10 levels drained away from the sub-contractors: even if they were both 30's, they're not Epic any longer (and since Jephton apparently lost his in the non-Maximized blast, he's now below V's own power level after the Maximized one).

[Axl_Rose]

DAYUMN.

This was actually the most excited I've been reading an OOTS comic. My 2 favorite characters dishing it out with epic level spells! (I think? I'm not much of a D&D guy)

I'm wondering why Red Cloak isn't firing more offensive spells though. Although I suppose the information that V is using soul splices was of great strategic value.


so what this tells me is you're channeling the "raw unlimited energies" of two chumps who didn't have the balls to stay in the game! So, MAXIMIZED Energy Drain, dumbass

was just too badass. I'll be really sad when The Giant decides to have Xykon killed off. He is just SO cool. Calling V a dumbass and being justified for it is an admirable feat alone!

[Ampersand]

Great comic, would definitely read again! :smallbiggrin:


Not to say that it isn't good, but with V's effective level being as high as it is, I'm surprised that any of these spells are even AFFECTING him, even without Haerta spliced to him.

Effective spellcasting level...if I remember my 3rd edition, with Energy Drain you just need to succeed on a ranged touch attack. V didn't get any of the inherent bennies, including magic items, of being high level, so Xykon can probably hit him pretty easily.


a-the plot seems to call for V to be taken over at the next gate, which pretty much requires V to win now.

Actually, the plot just calls for V to not die here...or at least get brought back to life. She could get pretty soundly thrashed and still live.


b-the contract with the fiends also requires V win here. She is fighting magic with magic, and he is supposed to be hugely above any previous or present spellcaster. So if V loses, that contract is void.

How d'ya figure? The fiends gave V exactly what was promosied...immense arcane power. If she squanders, misuses or uses poor tactics in regards to it, it's no concern of theirs. At no point did they guarantee that she'd be an unstoppable magical juggernaut who could never lose.

Also, David, meet Goliath. Heh.


c-That energized Sunburst should give Xykon about 75 hp damage, meaning he is about half gone already. He can be taken out by good old Disintegrate

:redcloak: "Harm"
:xykon: "Mmm, that's good negative energy."

Edit:
I'll be really sad when The Giant decides to have Xykon killed off. He is just SO cool. Calling V a dumbass and being justified for it is an admirable feat alone!

Oh, I completely agree. I love the OotS villains...they've got style. Makes me sad that Xykon, Nale, et al will almost certainly have to die so that the protagonists can win.

[Silverraptor]

Oh wow. This is not looking good at all. V is having serious trouble fighting Xykon. And now we'll never see the sorceror's epic level spell! Darn.

Anyways, you owe me 10 gold pieces, Blackbird.

[nonamearisto]

The splice also affects V's total effective level, not just the spell casting level. That's why one of the fiends said that V would have no level gain while the splice was in effect.

I know... the author has to prevent V from ending the plot too soon... so he has to stretch it here and there... but unless I want to borrow V's copy of "finding plot holes for dummies"... it might be nitpicking. It is enough to know that V didn't realize that raw power alone isn't sufficient to be an archmage.

Interestingly enough, that IS how fantasy usually works; the evil wizard acts through proxies until the finale, and only THEN is he beaten.

[WarriorTribble]

Oddly, I think I liked the comic more before I came here and learned how improbable Xykon's actions were. Perhaps Rich is writing more for the non-DND fans now.

Also, utterly disgusted at the few who attacked JeptCloak for daring to have a strong negative reaction to the comic.

[maksel]

Considering the last events and the general plot, V's losing his fight against Xykon isn't really surprising to me. But I don't think this was a well written scenario. I'm not saying I can do any better but I'm sure Rich possesses the necessary skills.

For V to lose, it was necessary for him to lose the surprise round. The outcome of the battles between high level or epic spell casters are greatly influenced by the initiative. Therefore something disrupting V was mandatory. But, considering the Cloister spell and being in the center of a city controlled by thousands of hobgoblins, those traps against arcane magic users are far from logical. As Xykon stated, an epic level caster would have made the concentration check, which renders the traps obsolete. And someone who isn't high level enough couldn't pass through the Cloister spell or possibly the city infested with minions. Even if they did, as Xykon's and possibly Redcloak's recent gains of experience, they shouldn't pose a serious threat. So the traps seem to be specifically designed for V and that's why it feels far-fetched to me.

But other than that, I'm fine with V losing and/or dying. Going into a fight against the world's possibly best sorcerer without any plan, backup and scrying and expecting to win in one round because of 'feeling omnipotent' or arcane arrogance is bound to have some consequences.

Yet I can't help but wonder who actually can defeat Xykon. He mentioned the 'sacrifice' he made for staying in the game. Tearing his own flesh, becoming a lich etc... But trying to stay in the game also means trying to avoid going to the lower planes. For that particular reason, I thought V was one of the best candidates for ending Xykon's life/unlife. For whatever reasons it might be, he made a sacrifice and he accepted to spend a limited amount of time in the lower planes, the same place Xykon's trying to escape being ended up from...

[Porthos]

Also, utterly disgusted at the few who attacked JeptCloak for daring to have a strong negative reaction to the comic.

I think the gratuitous swearing at the author of the comic, plus the incoherent nature of the rant had far more to do with the reaction that JeptCloak got. If JeptCloak had presented his negative reaction in a reasonable way he wouldn't have been slammed back.

Or to put it in a very simple way: Act like a jerk and expected to be treated like a jerk. :smallsmile:

[RMS Oceanic]

Oddly, I think I liked the comic more before I came here and learned how improbable Xykon's actions were. Perhaps Rich is writing more for the non-DND fans now.

Also, utterly disgusted at the few who attacked JeptCloak for daring to have a strong negative reaction to the comic.

I don't see it as unlikely. He did it on Redcloak's insistence, and we've clearly seen Redcloak as a planner. Also, after the unexpected Sapphire Martyrs very nearly killing them both, preparing for some random person to appear and try to kill them is not really over the top.

[BriarHobbit]

Yow! I enjoyed the comic, but it looks like V is getting rolled faster than a carpet. If the Evil Three don't want to lose their investment, they better briefly seize control of the reins for a bit. Using the chain lightning was a basic error that V could not afford to make. Xykon is a liche and immune to certain kinds of attacks. It seems like V's tactical sense is suffering from his failure to trance. V needs to maintain some distance between himself and Xykon because those Life Drains are too deadly.

[fractal]

For V to lose, it was necessary for him to lose the surprise round. The outcome of the battles between high level or epic spell casters are greatly influenced by the initiative. Therefore something disrupting V was mandatory. But, considering the Cloister spell and being in the center of a city controlled by thousands of hobgoblins, those traps against arcane magic users are far from logical. As Xykon stated, an epic level caster would have made the concentration check, which renders the traps obsolete. And someone who isn't high level enough couldn't pass through the Cloister spell or possibly the city infested with minions. Even if they did, as Xykon's and possibly Redcloak's recent gains of experience, they shouldn't pose a serious threat. So the traps seem to be specifically designed for V and that's why it feels far-fetched to me.
Well, presumably the trap mainly deals damage, and it's the damage that caused the concentration check. V then cast a spell (Chain Lightning) to prevent the wards from triggering again. If V had opted not to destroy them, then possibly they would have triggered every round, with cumulative damage making a difference over the course of an extended battle, even if they never actually stopped a spell. Thus, they will either deal damage, or else use up precious time to destroy them.

So, V's 5th level Teleport slots are pretty safe from Energy Drain... he should probably use them now. And next time... get buffed by the Cleric first.

[WarriorTribble]

I don't see it as unlikely.I was referring to Xykon's ability to cast maximized energy drain. How the drain could affect two targets, and Redcloak's knowledge of soul splices.

[Samurai Jill]

Not that I'm especially attached to V either way, but can someone explain to me precisely why the spell Death Ward did not figure prominently in this strip? Like-- AGAIN!?!! Bone Daddy can't just go on ignoring the laws of arcane physics forever, y'know!

[Boogastreehouse]

Also, utterly disgusted at the few who attacked JeptCloak for daring to have a strong negative reaction to the comic.

Pft. Don't be silly. He can dislike the comic all he wants, and the worst I'll do is politely debate him.

The problem I had was with how childish and rude he was acting. Among other things, he said (and I quote) "F&%$ you" to the nice man who's been working very hard to entertain us.

"Daring to have a strong negative reaction?" There's nothing daring about having an ugly, spiteful temper-tantrum, because the story isn't being told the way you want it to be.

[Antacid]

Tsukiko=Pigtail Chick!
How does Redcloak know what soul-splices are, anyway? Maybe they're more common than the fiends said they were!

He probably read a sourcebook Rich wrote, or something.

V is being pwned currently, but at least the failed dimensional anchor suggests that Xykon may have to end the combat prematurely by teleporting away.

Oh, and Energy Drain is overpowered.

EDIT- also ITT: epic tears and lulz

[Zevox]

Not to say that it isn't good, but with V's effective level being as high as it is, I'm surprised that any of these spells are even AFFECTING him, even without Haerta spliced to him.
Er, why? I mean, do you know how these thing function in D&D? Her level alone doesn't provide complete protection from anything. She was hit by exactly two things here - the trap, and Energy Drain. We don't know what, exactly, the trap did, but whatever it did, it forced a concentration check that she failed, which given Xykon's surprise seems to indicate that she did not gain a higher concentration check from the Soul Splice. And Energy Drain, she has no defenses against. It allows no save against the initial drain, and only requires Xykon to make a ranged touch attack, which is ridiculously easy for an epic character unless their target is a high-level monk. The only ways to resist Energy Drain are Spell Resistance, which V does not have, and the spell Death Ward, which is divine magic, and thus V does not have that, either.


I also have a VERY hard time believing that anyone with enough power to kill off 1/4 of the Black Dragon population with a single spell population could be deemed a "loser." That is one place where this issue falls flat on its face.
Er, Xykon doesn't know about Haerta. Heck, he doesn't know anything about the splices other than that they exist - he's just an arrogant SOB, and will happily insult anyone he feels like insulting, whether his insults are accurate or not.


Not that I'm especially attached to V either way, but can someone explain to me precisely why the spell Death Ward did not figure prominently in this strip? Like-- AGAIN!?!! Bone Daddy can't just go on ignoring the laws of arcane physics forever, y'know!
As mentioned above, V simply does not have access to it - its a divine spell only. And hells, she was just deriding divine magic as not being "real magic," so do you really think it would occur to her to ask Durkon for a casting of it before popping off to fight Xykon?

Zevox

[RMS Oceanic]

Not that I'm especially attached to V either way, but can someone explain to me precisely why the spell Death Ward did not figure prominently in this strip? Like-- AGAIN!?!! Bone Daddy can't just go on ignoring the laws of arcane physics forever, y'know!

Because Death Ward is a cleric-only spell, and V is explicitly barred from replicating Divine Magic.

As for the other unlikely knowledge, we are talking about an epic level sorceror and a goblin who abuses modern chemistry. If Xykon can pick up an Epic Spell from Dorukan, it's certainly possible Dorukan had researched Soul Splices before, and Xykon or Redcloak read about it in his notes.

[silvadel]

V might have trouble getting some of the room deposit back on the souls -- they are going to go back "slightly" lower level than they used to be....

V had better hope that someone has access to a regular teleport and use it quick. D probably has a restoration available for V *IF* V can manage to get out of this deathtrap.

[Needle]

As said, V still has the buffs from ABD fight, plus tried to Time Stop and repeat tactics. Redcloack just used an effective counter at putting traps, then used his turn to advise Xykon on V's real spell.

If you like "turns", this should be like...

Turn #0

- V failed Concentration Check to traps.

Turn #1

- V uses Quickened Chain Lighting to remove the traps. Having no ranks on Knowledge (Religion) meant he did a bad choice on the "main target", but not at destroying the traps.

- X uses Energy Drain. He doesn't know about the splice yet, but knows that V has a 10th lvl spell at least (he even says this), so his main reason was to take out some spells from V.

- After seeing Energy Drain "had no effect on V", Redcloack uses True Seeing. He sees the souls.

Turn #2

- V uses Empowered Sunburst. X takes it fully.

- V misses Quickened Dimensional Anchor.

- Redcloack warns Xykon. Crimson Mantle is enough to know about this, ne? plus seeing souls attached to V means something. I mean, he is seeing another two guys on V back...

- Xykon most likely learnt from his last fight againts souls (he was almost beaten, he'd be an idiot not to take future measure against it), and casted Maximized Energy Drain.

Any corrections are OK, since I never got so high leveled for some spells, not to mention I hate to use "I have so many spells" classes :smallyuk:

But if I see things this way, I see no bad storytelling, no Ex Machinas, no nothing.

EDIT: Rad's advice on Quickened Spells :smallwink: Now let's see if Redcloak ends the turn or V moves. Personally, if Redcloak moves now, V is in trouble as it can mean:

1- Red using Disintegrate on V.
2- Red healing Xykon's damage from Sunburst.

[Lunaya]

:smalleek: Alas, poor Vaarsuvius. We barely knew ye. I may have to alter my signature to include a memorial plaque for our favorite androgynous elf.

And am I the only one who got the biggest laugh trying to picture 12 druids hiding in a potted fern? :smallbiggrin: Forget the drama. That was the best part.

[Rad]

Awesome strip!
In particular I liked how the combat feels right as a real D&D combat and the knowledge we have of the characters.

Needle, your timing doesn't seem right: remember that quickened spells are made on the same turn of a regular one. We are now on the second regular round where Redcloak is next to act.

[Boogastreehouse]

As for Xykon's Energy Drain having no effect on V, I have a theory:

Energy Drain is a ray attack that engages only one target, suppressing that target's highest levels (technically, it bestows negative levels, but it's easier to describe it this way). Since V was hit by the ray, and V is currently three entities in one, then all three are hit by the same beam. That spell will then reduce the highest levels first, meaning that V won't go down levels until the other two have been reduced to V's level.


By the way, there's a popular opinion floating around that supposes that V's effective level is the total sum of his/her levels and the levels of the "sub-contractors." In other words, if V's level is, say, 15, and the other three spell-casters were each 20th level (just for the sake of argument), then V would have a caster level of 75.

I think that conclusion is wrong. It's possible that V might have the caster level of the highest level soul in the splice, but I think that whoever is providing the spell in question is the one determining the caster level, so if V casts one of his/her own spells, it's at his/her own caster level.

Therefore, it's not like V is three times Xykon's level or something, and should be able to mop up the floor with him without breaking a sweat. Rather, I think that it's better to imagine that three epic spell-casters ganged up on Xykon. Xykon might be epic enough to take out three (oh yeah, two) epic casters, especially in his own territory, booby-trapped as it is.


Oh Yeah! I just realized that if V had been patient and brought his/her teammates along, Haley might have been able to use her Rogue ability to detect and disarm that magic trap.

[Zack Norglad]

Nice comic, I thought that V was going to do a bit better against Xykon... Oh well...
Some epic spell casting made it look quite cool.
Xykon's lines about the splices were quite interesting. They changed my perspective about them, like, totally.

[Wizardzo]

I think one of my favorite D&D quotes is appropriate for V's situation..

"Never underestimate the power of a well placed low-level spell." :)

[Sethek]

The Faustian deal is rapidly spinning towards its conclusion in a dredfully clichéd manner :)

I'm not going into rules discussions here, nor am I going to supply kindling to nerd rage bonfires, though. Sorry to disappoint.

There's just one thing that's been bothering me the instant I read the lines, and it's Xykon's usual trash talk that has the almost supernatural ability to be a dead-on KO blow to the recipient's rationale. Here, he voices derision for those who are too chicken to take the most extreme steps to overcome weakness. Somehow, that made a most disturbing image pop up in my mind. A pink lich of uncertain gender...

Think about it - lately, we see three things chiefly on V's mind. First one and most prominently featuring is, "desperately trying to not be weak and fail at things". Xykon pushed that button. Second, we have the "Unite the goddamn Order and be gone with tedious plotlines. Done that. And third, rising through the ranks rapidly, is "Oh crap, my debt to those fiends is accruing at an alarming rate. Oh crap, oh crap, oh crap." I got the distinct impression that the soul-controlling thingie requires you to be dead in the first place, and the best way of avoiding that fate would be to, uhm, I don't know, just not dying :)

On the other hand, a dead V soul suddenly popping out during the cataclysmic final battle with the snarl, with the IFCC pulling the strings and saving the day, sounds like some AWESOME PR for the lower planes.

I, personally, though, prefer the "*gasp* Would you be interested in acquiring *cough* the services of an apprentice most accomplished in the arts arcane in exchange *wheeze* for the means to overcome my weakness *spit blood*"-approach ;)

[Gol_Stoan]

I was referring to Xykon's ability to cast maximized energy drain. How the drain could affect two targets, and Redcloak's knowledge of soul splices.

Xykon may have gained a few levels since the last time we saw him in action, it has been months. We do not know what he has been up to in the mean time. There are many ways to get xp :smallwink:

The drain effected one target, one that happened to have two souls spliced to it, but still one target.

My question is, will the energy drain spells start to effect V's own levels before or after the splice is completely drained of levels?

As for Redcloak knowing about the soul splice?

Well he is a high level Cleric, which means he has plenty of ranks in Knowledge (Religion) to know ALL about souls and demons and such things as that (especially being an evil cleric after all). He would probably also have pretty high Knowledge (Arcana) as well, being a bit of a nerd about such things really. He also may or may not be receiving a bonus from the cloak, hard to say really.

To top it off, he cast True Seeing which allows the caster to see things "as they truly are," after seeing the souls of the two mages chained to V, Redcloak is certainly smart enough to connect the dots.

If nothing else he might have caught some kind of documentary program on Teevo about "Soul Splices Through the Ages" :smalltongue:

[derfenrirwolv]

How does Redcloak know what soul-splices are, anyway? Maybe they're more common than the fiends said they were!

massive ranks in knowledge: religion. Not to mention redcloaks real boss may have spliced someone at some point.




The fact that its not original doesn't mean it doesn't work extremely well . To quote the Giant "just because it's cliche doesn't mean it doesn't work".


K Penguin


It is unlikely V would have the ranks in Knowledge (Religion) to know much of anything about liches.

V at one point said his knowledge of the undead was unmatched (the one where durkon blinds everyone with turning)

Knowledge religion is a class skill for wizards, and one of the more useful knowledges, as it gives information on one of the more common and dangerous creature types.. undead.

Yuki akuma


Who says Jephton is level 21? He could have been level 28 and lost 8 levels due to the Energy Drain for all we know.

I’m afraid that this is a legitimate gripe. Energy drains don’t make you a loose all the spells you could cast above your “new level”. They make you loose 1 spell slot per level drained, including your ones for high ability score specialization etc.

Someone would need to check the epic level handbook to see how energy drain works on epic spell slots.

I have to say, I am a little disappointed here. Its like the explanation of the off screen miko fight where the order acts ineffectively for no reason (I don’t count Elan being élan as no reason)

Xykon’s idea that there is no level of finesse that cannot be overcome by brute force is only true when none of the other characters even TRY finesse. Here is a partial list of spells that would put a crimp in xykons “unbeatable strategy”

Mirror image: Pick a wizard, any wizard. Xykon would only have a 1 in 9 chance of hitting V.

Blur: Invokes a 20% miss chance (energy drain requires a ranged touch attack)

Obscuring mist/fog cloud/whatever cant target it if you can’t see it, then use aoe in the fog.

Improved invisibility

Blink + magic missle.

Slow (no metamagic for the core sorcerer, and quickened slow is too good an oxymoron not to use)

Spell turning (empowered)

Bigsby’s interposing hand (+4 cover bonus to ac)

Bigby’s crushing hand (grapple really sucks for a sorcerer)

Considering v can easily cast a quickened mirror image and then blast away it should be no problem. Xykons not the type to synch his actions with redcloak so he knows which one to hit.

[isocum]

well, i expected the result, but i thought that can take few more strips. still that was a good update.

about the controversy on the way things gone, try to think with an analogy:

wild west setting, cow-V is an arrogant, wannabe gunslinger. But all she has is an ye olde oneshot pistol. she is obsessively training on arm pulling and all, so she doesn't sleep much.

someday head of the neighboring family comes to her, smack her ass because Cow-V bullying her son in the past, and says there is more to come. V panics and goes to owner of local coal mines. for some months of free labor, she manages to rent a winchester rifle(haertha), and 2 revolvers(ganonron, jepthon). Just before giving the guns, mine owner says she could go to the sheriff, but she tries to deal with it herself because she is butthurt, adding some more strain on her(he is an evil capitalist).

anyway, V barges in to the neighboring farm, kill the entire family with the winchester, running out of rifle ammo in the process. she goes back to her family for bragging about it, but they got horrified by her evil act, and kick her out. more strain.

then V goes to brag her friends, who were dealing some problems on their own. but when she came, she founds out that they solved them all. her frustration grows even more, to the snapping point. ignoring her friends objections, she decides to challenge billy the kid, who was harassing the town.

since she isn't thinking(couldn't think) clearly, she deduces she can took kid. she has more firepower afterall. but kid, an experienced gunslinger knows how to duel, fools V and got the sun on his behind. when they turn their backs, V got distracted by sunlight, and misses her shots. kid shoots both her revolvers off, and now he is coming for the killing shot.

----------------------

hopefully my analogy can help people unfamiliar to D&D to understand things.

anyway i can't wait how V gonna humiliated next strip. she is likely to get bailed out by IIFC, or manage to run after a distraction caused by MitD, but i sense some awesome lines from Xykon and/or Redcloak nevertheless.

[Tundar]

V's arrogance lost to his intelligence.

Fighting a lich in it's own domain isn't a sign of high intelligence.



I just hope the OotS will be able to scoop up whatever will be left of V. If Xykon doesn't kill him, Redcloak will.

[Azukar]

Well...

First, I said a quiet "uh-oh" when Xykon broke out an Energy Drain. I hope it doesn't end too badly for V, but I suspect it will.

Second, why did Jephton think Disjunction would help? Forgive my ignorance of D&D rules, but doesn't that just break spells like the dragon's Antimagic Field?

Third, where does it say Xykon has spent months churning out magic items to increase his abilities? Is it an OotPCs reference?

[isocum]

Also, i am not a master of rules(only played lots of BIS D&D CRPGS), but i don't think Energy drain hit both splices with full power. i believe levels do not stack, so i consider V is a group of 14wizard/20+wizard/20+sorcerer in one entity. Energy drain probably start taking highest levels off, so it took few from ganonron, and few from jeph, rather than affecting them both. actually if it could affect them both, like some sort of area/group effect, it should drain V too.

[B9anders]

I feel completely an utterly gypped by the retroactive rewriting of the story this comic has engaged in. Maybe it's just my all nighter studying, but I could vomit on the author right now for cheating every reader in this way. I was actually about to order SoD as a birthday present to myself, but I don't think I will now. I'll just get pissed off again.

Oh get a life, drama queen. it's a web comic.

[Elemental_Elf]

I feel completely an utterly gypped by the retroactive rewriting of the story this comic has engaged in.

*snip*

F&%$ you.

Dude, take a chill pill.

[derfenrirwolv]

Jepthon


I was actually about to order SoD as a birthday present to myself, but I don't think I will now. I'll just get pissed off again.

That sorcerer V wizard fight was less than stellar on behalf of the wizard as well. Your nausea is a bit of an overreaction though.

[banjo1985]

Ah good, looks like I won't be disappointed by this encounter, V really is going to get it's androgynous butt handed to it on a plate. :smallbiggrin:

[Porthos]

Third, where does it say Xykon has spent months churning out magic items to increase his abilities? Is it an OotPCs reference?

Well, it's heavily implied in this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0543.html). :smallsmile:

:xykon:: Hey, keeping someone alive is cleric's work. You figure it out. Me, I'm bored! For whatever reason, I can only devote 8 hours a day to making magic items, even though I'm awake 24/7. I've got to fill the rest of the time with something- and there's only so much enjoyment one can get out of making untrained slaves fight each other.

[thubby]

both splices getting hit seems king of... arbitrary.
otherwise good strip

[Dr. Cthulwho]

Awesome. Loved this strip, and how much is happening in it.

- Redcloak and Xykon's banter and "See? SEE?" is great. I bet Xykon really went on about his bouncy ball of insanity, so Recloak gets some high level bragging rights of his own.

And Redcloak's precautions probably saved Team Evil's bacon. If V had got that time stop off...

- Hehe, druids.

- Even with the splice V's concentration and aim haven't improved.

- Looks like loosing Haerta has in fact hurt V's chances some.

- Nice to also see some more of how the splice works, with the souls debating what to do next, and taking those energy drains.

- So both Redcloak and Xykon know what a splice is? Seems like either the IFCC might have been less then honest about their rarity and how unknown they are... or that knowledge of them does exist somewhat in both Xykon and Redcloack's fields of expertise.

-Xykon's last little speech and payoff to it was great. Seems like he recognizes the type of soul that would work in such a deal.

- The look on V's face and the cry from the souls... could the splice be breaking? If so V. Goose. Cooked.

In conclusion - Go Team Evil!


But, considering the Cloister spell and being in the center of a city controlled by thousands of hobgoblins, those traps against arcane magic users are far from logical.

As Xykon apparently agreed. It was Redcloak who decided it best to have some sort of defense in the throne room should a magic user drop by, and it paid off.


As Xykon stated, an epic level caster would have made the concentration check, which renders the traps obsolete.

Unless of course non-epic casters somehow made it to the room...


And someone who isn't high level enough couldn't pass through the Cloister spell or possibly the city infested with minions.

I don't know. How many stories exist out there were against unbelievable odds characters manage to face off against the big bad in their control room? In this case, for example, in a minion filled city a fairly capable underground exists.

I've seen typical dungeon based settings were the adventure party fights through a dungeon and faces off against someone who would have certainly benifited having something to disrupt the caster - because usually it is a team working together, as opposed to one epic hero.

Presumably those evil overlords thought "well, nothing that gets through my minion army and caves full of traps will likely be effected anyway so I wont bother". And what happens to them? They get ganged up on - stabbed up close, blaster from afar etc.

Besides, it is clear the traps did damage to V and might have worked every time V cast a spell. Even if an epic spellcaster's concentration wasn't effected there would still be a danger to their HP if the battle dragged on.


Even if they did, as Xykon's and possibly Redcloak's recent gains of experience, they shouldn't pose a serious threat. So the traps seem to be specifically designed for V and that's why it feels far-fetched to me.

It doesn't for me. It seems well in line with Redcloak's character who tries to be at least a little prepared for many eventualities. The possibility a team of non-epic adventures might get there? In this setting?

Doesn't seem illogical to consider the possibility.


Yet I can't help but wonder who actually can defeat Xykon.

Perhaps a team working together? Where they combine their skills and talents to overcome a threat greater then any one of them individually?

Say a group like... the Order of the Stick? V could certainly have benefited in a little clerically intervention to prevent those energy drains being so dangerous... etc.



I'll be really sad when The Giant decides to have Xykon killed off. He is just SO cool. Calling V a dumbass and being justified for it is an admirable feat alone!

Agreed. I often like well written villains the most (which doesn't mean I don't want them beaten, just that it has to be truly great), and I love the OotS villain set a lot. Redcloak and Xykon in particular.


While it is a good entry, I generally hate it when this happens; an character with enough power to "destroy a planet" and take a blast which could do the same is beaten when someone hits them a few times. This happens a lot in Dragonball Z. Same thing with Xykon being defeated so easily by Roy the first time... even though he came back.

Xykon was beaten by the Gate because of what it could intrinsically do. Presumably if the ABD, Redcloak, maybe even the IFCC touched it the same would happen to them.

And it has never been shown that V in this state can take the same amount he can dish out. Especially with Energy Drains which are very good at getting around that kind of thing.


Not to say that it isn't good, but with V's effective level being as high as it is, I'm surprised that any of these spells are even AFFECTING him, even without Haerta spliced to him.

I don't think V has the "effective level" of the two spellcasters combined, plus his own. As his disrupted concentration and still poor aim indicate.


It also seems like the splice is better-known than the fiends let on; Redcloak recognized it immediately.

Maybe, maybe not. They did say it was a once a century deal, so it might have happened before. Knowledge of something so esoteric involving the lower planes might not be unknown to the well educated arcane/divine caster.

Especially two so heavily involved in messing around with such epic stuff as the Gates, Snarl and the Order of the Scribble.


Of course, if V managed destroy Xykon, Redcloak, and save the day, the comic would come to an effective end. So, I guess his failure to defeat the enemies here and now is necessary...

Well, both the Linear Guild and the IFCC are out there, but removing Xykon and Redcloak, who are the primary villains and whose motivation the OotS must act off would be bad.

Of course V could defeat them, since a defeat doesn't mean death is assured, since Team Evil has been defeated before. As has the Linear Guild.


Third, where does it say Xykon has spent months churning out magic items to increase his abilities? Is it an OotPCs reference?

It isn't actually said that he is making magic items to specifically increase his abilities, just that in 543 when Redcloak Xykon points out he is bored, and since he only seems able to spend a certain amount of time per day on making magic items he seeks other entertainment...

"For whatever reason I can only devote 8 hours a day to making magic items, even though I'm awake 24/7"

[Denadareth]

Well, as it was suggested the ease with which Redcloak recognised sould splice suggests thate the fiends, er.... exagerated the part about it being the once-in-a-lifetime deal.

To be honest I hope that V manages to escape, I know (s)he should pay the price for her arrogance, but since Roy is being raised it would be nice to have the whole OotS together again.

Regards

[Killer Angel]

Rather disappointing.

Instead of an interesting, intelligent, or surprising fight, we got one serving of Stupid Railroad Plot.


when you are going to fight the BBEG in the sancta sanctorum of his fortress, with said BBEG having the aid of his powerful minions, you should plan your attack a little more than "I'm invincible, i will win".
No matter your power, if you are too much self-confident, odds are that you are going to lose.
It was an intelligent fight (from the defensive side, thanks to Redcloack), and it was surprising... i am always surprise at the new ways Xykon finds to mock his adversaries. :smalltongue:

[Voyager_I]

I don't see why knowledge of the Soul Splice is assumed to be exceptionally rare just because V hasn't heard of it. Yes, the fiends say not to look it up, but they were talking to someone who wouldn't know of such things and perhaps as a side comment to the D&D players who would immediately reach for their splatbooks if they weren't told it was a homebrew.

Just because it's rare, special and powerful doesn't mean it's obscure; indeed, it's often exactly the opposite. The information could be readily available for those who looked in the right places, and it doesn't seem unreasonable that a high-level Cleric who is the direct servant of a god and an epic-level lich Necromancer would know about splices.

[aka Argent]

I think V is going to get captured and get put in a cage next to O'Chul. After which V will finally do some character development. V's foundation of hir life, Arcane Power is Everything, has just been both granted (via the splice) and found useless (except for saving hir family, which was only partly successful as far as they're alive, but now s/he's not really welcome).

So the captive paladin and the captive wizard will do some talk therapy, with comments from the Monster and Demon Roaches. V comes out somewhat, but not totally changed "Raw Power is not enough, I must have the relative Experience as well!"


As for the folks who just can't work out how V lost this, the sequence of events since the Dragon fight is clear enough. V went into the fight down on spells, with the wrong buffs (geared for a more physical confrontation - no negative energy protection, magic resistance, or spell turning/deflection while going up against an Undead Sorcerer, that's just not thinking things through), missing the most powerful member of the splice, with a tenuous battle plan that hinged on getting Time Stop cast before anyone reacted.

[Azukar]

"For whatever reason I can only devote 8 hours a day to making magic items, even though I'm awake 24/7"

Thanks, Doc! It's probably been said a hundred times, but I soooo can't see Xykon sitting still for eight hours a day to make magic items!

And a question to anyone: is the "Bluebeards" a reference to the Azurites, or something else?

[Tulisin]

When the chain lightning first dove right into Redcloak's chest I figured "Oh great, V is going to lose, but his attempt isn't going to be entirely in vain because he'll take out the phylactery".

Now, later panels show the holy symbol is still intact (and even working for Redcloak's soul-splice reveal), but I still think this could be a good way for the battle to go. A good story has heights of victory and troughs of defeat for the heroes. Finally coming back together and bringing Roy back is not so much a victory as clawing their way back up to the status quo, I think it'd be just too brutal to have one of their number fall for nothing at this point in the story. At least let V have accomplished something aside from giving Xykon a fun day.

In a related note, V has to be worth a pretty chunk of exp at this point, any chance Redcloak or even Xykon might level from his defeat?

[Samurai Jill]

Because Death Ward is a cleric-only spell, and V is explicitly barred from replicating Divine Magic.
You're telling me that there is no possible arcane spell V might have cast to feasibly protect himself from that exact same spell twice in succession!? This is ridiculous! V is arrogant, not an imbecile!


I have to say, I am a little disappointed here. Its like the explanation of the off screen miko fight where the order acts ineffectively for no reason (I don’t count Elan being élan as no reason)
They don't act ineffectively for no reason- Miko gets initiative, takes out an unarmoured low-HP mage and evil halfling while Durkon is undecided, Elan is a non-factor, Windstriker nerfs Haley, and Roy is missing his favourite weapon- that, plus a ~4-level advantage is enough to settle the matter. Belkar vs. Miko annoyed me a lot more.

But I agree completely with your assessment of viable wizardly tactics for blunting Xykon's offensive: it's completely absurd that V wouldn't take at least nominal steps to negate Xykon's most damaging- and possibly only viable- tactic against s/him. (I'm also a little leery of how energy drain is somehow affecting both spliced souls without harming V, yet those levels apparently don't stack for saving throws.)

[hungerer]

This is awesome. Just awesome work and a great unfolding of a story.

Everything in this strip is excellent from a rules perspective too, and feels a hell of a lot like a couple of situations I have seen in games where archmagi are involved.

One thing no one seems to have specifically pointed out is that V's Concentration is suffering some multiple action penalty (Concentrate on keeping souls spliced...). Also the ruling on the energy drain hitting the top levels first of a multiclass character is a fair cop against a campaign specific epic spell effect (soul splice).

[B9anders]

Here's what is already established prior to this comic.

V underestimates Xykon. S/He blatantly overestimates himself. He has little experience with high-level tactics. His concentration skill blows as it always has (tanglefootbag anyone...). And has already lost the most powerful 3rd of her soul splice (apparently without losing the conceit of unlimited power however).

Disappointing to see so many jump on the whine wagon rather than examining how Xykon could conceivably cast that spell. As already mentioned, a rod of metamagic would do the trick, as would the sudden maximize feat. And regardless I reckon he has surely levelled after conquering the azure city.

We know he is not adverse to a little prepared defence. I mean, he has an epic spell cast on the city to prevent unwelcome surprises. A few more in 9 months where he is getting bored anyway (and is making magic items 8 hours a day) is really not surprising.

My only point of confusion here, assuming he went the conventional route of maximized 9th lvl spells, is why he needs at be 26th rather than just 24th level? Doesn't he only need three epic feats (Improved Spell Capacityx3)?


So the lesson today is - Ultimate Power means Zip if you don't have the skills to wield it. It's like leaving a Baby an H-Bomb, sounds dangerous but in actuality they can be stopped by anyone, even a toddler.

Exactly. And this is what makes this strip enjoyable. Welcome to the big leagues, V.

[Tokoza]

People who keep saying that Xykon needs to be lvl 26 in order to cast that maximized energy drain spell, are not totally correct.

in fact he could just have taken the "sudden maximized spell" feat from complete arcana it allows the caster to cast 3 maximized spells per day and not having to incresse the spell level.

it would not be the first time he used that book.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0518.html

[Azukar]

Ohhhh here's something that very nearly made me lol:

...

...

V might've spotted and avoided those traps if he'd been using his familiar, which grants a bonus on such checks!

[Hrairoo]

woohoo, "and goodness knows! the wicked's lives are lonely! and goodness knows, the wicked die alone!" hehe, at least that's what i thought when i saw the title. :smallwink:

and i must say, redcloak's line must be one of the best in a while. twelve druids in a potted fern...heehee :smallbiggrin:

wow, railroading? retconning? seriously guys, this is a story, the giant can do whatever he wants with it. and it is giant, if any, who deserves to be given the benefit of the doubt, he has shown time and time again that he is a step ahead of us.

[Rhydeble]

I found this a very interesting comic, especially as it made me think that

V will lose all the levels from the splice trough energy drain, somehow this costs Xykon, Redcloack, Hobgobgeneral and Tsukiko most of their high level spells. Thus after Darth V's extreme failure in killing his enemy's, we get normal V blasting away X and company. Instead of killing them of she will have a higher priority in saving O-chul from the evil-indarknessliving-Gogenius-utterhellokittydoombringing-Monster in the box, then these two escaping together (scroll of railroadplot to bring them to the party) and O-chul becoming a replacement for the sexy shoeless god of war.

anyone complaining about Xykon being too strong is forgetting that Xykon has the "far-too-important-for-the-plot-to-die" feat, which makes sure that his level is always over 9000 unless the plot says otherwise (don't bother looking that feat up, its homebrew by Rich.)

[Celisasu]

V's lack of knowledge about Xykon's strengths and weaknesses is no surprise. Just two comics ago he even commented on not knowing anything about divine magic when Durkon was bringing back Roy because it's not real magic anyways. Aka we know V has zero ranks in religion and knowledge of undead requires ranks in religion.

Durkon also might have taken that feat that gives a bonus to dispel checks which increases his odds of rolling high enough to dispel Xykon's magic.

Roy killed Xykon in the first round via tossing Xykon into the gate. So special circumstances. Not like he actually did anything before that.

Xykon has shown multiple times that he can fight quite intelligently. He's also shown multiple times that he loves energy drain.

V's blown through quite a few spell slots before this fight began. As well as Time Stop he's also used Shapechange(which he should still be under the effect of as it's 10 minutes per level). Maximised Delayed Blast Fireball, Quickened Disintegrate, etc. Plus the strongest soul from the soul splice was the necromancer that he already lost.

And V's arrogant. He's shown time and time again he's arrogant. And his already extremely limited patience has been gone for over 100 strips now.

[olentu]

You're telling me that there is no possible arcane spell V might have cast to feasibly protect himself from that exact same spell twice in succession!? This is ridiculous! V is arrogant, not an imbecile!

If you think that is bad consider how bad it would be if the shapechange spell is still running, and given the recent use it probably still is.

[David Argall]

Actually, the plot just calls for V to not die here...or at least get brought back to life. She could get pretty soundly thrashed and still live.
Assuming we are right about guessing the plot, V has to win here. We need to get Team Evil back on the move, which is not done by it winning, and we need V powerful enough to cause the party lots of trouble when the fiends take her over. That rules out V being crippled or killed.


How d'ya figure? The fiends gave V exactly what was promosied...immense arcane power. If she squanders, misuses or uses poor tactics in regards to it, it's no concern of theirs. At no point did they guarantee that she'd be an unstoppable magical juggernaut who could never lose.

That is just what they did guarantee. Saying you can't find an encounter tough enough to gain XP means you win any battle very rapidly.


Oh yes, Harm is a touch spell, which is difficult to cast when the intended target is flying.

[RMS Oceanic]

You're telling me that there is no possible arcane spell V might have cast to feasibly protect himself from that exact same spell twice in succession!? This is ridiculous! V is arrogant, not an imbecile!

That's exactly what I'm saying. There are two spells in core that can protect against Negative Energy attacks: Death Ward and (Greater) Spell Immunity. Both of these are only on divine spell lists. There are two ways V could protect h**self from such attacks:

1. Acquire a Scarab of Protection (Needs death ward to make one yourself).
2. Research an epic spell using the Ward Seed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/seeds/ward.htm) to grant yourself immunity to the spell.

Unfortunately, given V's panicked state, I doubt (s)he'd take the time to do one or the other.

[Tyrmatt]

I'm also wondering that is Xykon using his sorcerer style to apply these metamagic rules here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/spontaneousMetamagic.htm).
Assuming I understand it right, it lets him bypass the increased level needed at the cost of only being able to do it every so often. Seems to fit the sorcerer's spontaneous style.

Spontaneous Spell also seems likely to me. Nothing like sacrificing lower levelled spell-slots to power up your big guns. Classic evil villain tactic there :D

Xykon switches into full evil badass mode and shows that his power level has been vastly increased since the Order last took a pop at him. Not surprising really. He was bound to get a story-award for capturing another gate and probably extra XP for subjugating a city. Not to mention that Unhallowed Tower he ripped up out of the ground. That smacks of a lot of power to me.

@derfenrirwolv: Finally someone who takes the a more intuitive approach to defeating someone who is renown for their brute-force tactics. Sure, magic must defeat magic, but there's no reason to try and fight fire with fire. You fight fire with water or in fact, a halogen based extinguisher system specifically designed for that type of fire.

[SuperDuperHai2U]

I am soooo happy V is getting owned. That should teach him for disrespecting divine magic. Bet he's just wishing he got some protection against undead/evil/negative energy or restoration right now.

[JuankiMan]

I won't go RAAAARGH!!! STRIP CRAP, ME NO LIKE but I confess that I am quite dissapointed with the absolute one-sidedness of the fight.

For starters, I fail to understand how could the souls be affected by energy drain. Someone said that they're dead souls, not ghosts, but the a ghost is precisely a dead soul in the prime material plane, which kinda fits what they are. But let's assume the soul splice makes them count as non-undead for some reason.

Now, 12th level spell slot? I have to agree that's waaaaaay beyond crazy. There's no way Durkon coul've passed a DC37+ dispel roll, specially since dispel magic caps the level bonus at 10. And it's very unlikely that he leveled up that much since A) Xykon is a lazy ass and B) Enemies too low level grant very little experience or no experience at all, and Xykon has been throwing his opponents left and right like toys. The only fight that made him sweat at all (figuratively speaking, of course) was the throne room fight, and one hard fight doesn't grant several levels, specially when you are not the direct cause of your victory.

Honestly, I have no idea whatsoever how the Order is gonna take him down. epic level casters are little gods in D&D and no one in the group seems even close to hitting 20. His AC, hp and saves are completely out of their league, not to mention that he could insta-kill them all with a single Wail of the Banshee (for example). Only thing that comes to mind is him getting overconfident, which is quite likely, and then fumbling the save on a disruptor weapon (which is probably what Roy's sword now is) or some insta-kill no-save like the Gate or an Orb of Destruction.

Well, I just hope that, for once, someone actually thinks of casting Death Ward.

[Killer Angel]

For V to lose, it was necessary for him to lose the surprise round. The outcome of the battles between high level or epic spell casters are greatly influenced by the initiative. Therefore something disrupting V was mandatory. But, considering the Cloister spell and being in the center of a city controlled by thousands of hobgoblins, those traps against arcane magic users are far from logical. As Xykon stated, an epic level caster would have made the concentration check, which renders the traps obsolete. And someone who isn't high level enough couldn't pass through the Cloister spell or possibly the city infested with minions. Even if they did, as Xykon's and possibly Redcloak's recent gains of experience, they shouldn't pose a serious threat. So the traps seem to be specifically designed for V and that's why it feels far-fetched to me.


Try consider this: the trap was not a Xikon’s idea but Redcloack’s, which is far more paranoid than Xikon.
To protect your HQ even against the unthinkable is always a good idea: probably RC wasn’t thinking on the possibility of an epic teleport, but on he chance that someone can enter in the fortress, to kill someone important (the hobgoblin general?) or to free O-chul. After all, in Azure city there’s still a resistance movement, not eradicated.
And Redcloack needs to keep O-Chul imprisoned (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0548.html).

[Twig]

Been reading the OOTS since Elan and Thog escaped the prison but it's my first post here.

This one made me think that it would be very fitting (to the rules of drama) if those energy drains would not only lose the spliced souls levels but in the end would make V's levels lower then they were before the soul-splice. Now if V would survive the fight (with a little help from Monster in the Dark guided by O-Chul maybe?) that would strike a real blow to the V's character, who has so far primarily focused on attaining power. Now that would finally force V to accept the fact that ultimate power isn't the end all solution to everything and that there should be a new goal in his/her life from now-on.

Yeah, might be far-stretched and Giant will no doubt prove us all wrong but I'd like thatkind turn of events. I quess we'll see, speculation is an unthankful activity anyways :smallbiggrin:

[derfenrirwolv]

They don't act ineffectively for no reason- Miko gets initiative,

And a surprise round. Its like the sort of bad DMing that says "Ok, I'm pulling out my crossbow in case they attack" "OK, they attack, you're surprised..."
They were ALL surprised when she attacked?



takes out an unarmoured low-HP mage

Who, judging from the comic, has yet to put a point into concentration or read the rules on 5 foot steps...



and evil halfling while Durkon is undecided, Elan is a non-factor, Windstriker nerfs Haley,

A +3 bow still has enough hardness and HP to not be snapped by a 9hp shot from a hoof. After that, i can't see how a large horse prevents Haley from tumbling around it and positioning to flank with Roy, who's supposed to be a brainy fighter with good tactics.




and Roy is missing his favourite weapon- that, plus a ~4-level advantage is enough to settle the matter. Belkar vs. Miko annoyed me a lot more.

Belkar vs miko showed the halfling being sneaky, clever and vindictive. The -20 to hide and move silently to do the "snipe and move" is believable from Belkar, and should work because its pretty cool. Its a character using the abilities, skills, and deviousness they're supposed to have, and V showed that he HAD in spades in the battle for azure city. Thats whats NOT going on with this fight so far.

[Hrairoo]

V's lack of knowledge about Xykon's strengths and weaknesses is no surprise. Just two comics ago he even commented on not knowing anything about divine magic when Durkon was bringing back Roy because it's not real magic anyways. Aka we know V has zero ranks in religion and knowledge of undead requires ranks in religion.

i'd actually chalk this all up to arrogance and impatience, because we also know v can randomly spout the cost of raise dead spell components to belkar, so it's more likely that he's just rushing to engage while his splice meters are still ticking.

[Celisasu]

i'd actually chalk this all up to arrogance and impatience, because we also know v can randomly spout the cost of raise dead spell components to belkar, so it's more likely that he's just rushing to engage while his splice meters are still ticking.


True. On the other hand with how casually everyone talks about raise dead, it might just be that he's seen someone raised from the dead and happens to know the components necessary for the spell. Or maybe he has low ranks in religion and failed the check relating to liches?

[Hrairoo]

I won't go RAAAARGH!!! STRIP CRAP, ME NO LIKE but I confess that I am quite dissapointed with the absolute one-sidedness of the fight.

For starters, I fail to understand how could the souls be affected by energy drain. Someone said that they're dead souls, not ghosts, but the a ghost is precisely a dead soul in the prime material plane, which kinda fits what they are. But let's assume the soul splice makes them count as non-undead for some reason.

Now, 12th level spell slot? I have to agree that's waaaaaay beyond crazy. There's no way Durkon coul've passed a DC37+ dispel roll, specially since dispel magic caps the level bonus at 10. And it's very unlikely that he leveled up that much since A) Xykon is a lazy ass and B) Enemies too low level grant very little experience or no experience at all, and Xykon has been throwing his opponents left and right like toys. The only fight that made him sweat at all (figuratively speaking, of course) was the throne room fight, and one hard fight doesn't grant several levels, specially when you are not the direct cause of your victory.

seriously, maybe u should follow the whole thread before deciding to post in it, no? all of your points have been addressed at least twice.

xykon is lazy but he's not dumb. you don't think he can net a few levels in four months? he's gained control of a gate, he's conquered a city, he's summoned an ungodly tower out of the freakin' ground! he singlehandedly beat the sapphire guard! he's been pumping out magic items ever since, and we have no idea what else he has been doing for four months... again, xykon may be lazy, but he also has a short attention span, you can be sure he's been keeping busy.

as for the issue of ghosts, this area is not my best, but i believe ghosts to be from the ethereal plane existing simultaneously in the material plane. correct me if i'm wrong but i think the ethereal plane is neutral, whereas all of the splices are either evil or chaotic...

[Hrairoo]

True. On the other hand with how casually everyone talks about raise dead, it might just be that he's seen someone raised from the dead and happens to know the components necessary for the spell. Or maybe he has low ranks in religion and failed the check relating to liches?

true. that's also a possibility. another is, perhaps, he simply doesn't have much experience going up against other high level characters, and doesn't come up against spells like energy drain very often. he does seem to run into trouble with other spellcasters. (thinking of every character who's shown up with spell resistance). i just wouldn't be so quick to write off v as being ignorant of divine magic, as he has been shown, overall, to have a pretty good idea of what everything does, etc...

[The Pilgrim]

- "How you can have 10th level spell slots and still blow a concentration check that easy is beyond me"

That settles some issues about how the Soul Splice works. Obviously only spell slots stacks, but not attributes, saves, etc...

- "You are channeling the unlimited energies of two chumps who didn't have the balls to stay in the game"

That pretty much settles aslo some issues about the real power of the spliced souls...

Definitely Jepthon is not gonna cast an Epic spell. :smallbiggrin:

I must admit that I expected (and still expect) the Hobbo guy to be slaughtered by V, redshirt fashion.

To whoever said Energy Drain was the way to go: You were right!

[Hrairoo]

I must admit that I expected (and still expect) the Hobbo guy to be slaughtered by V, redshirt fashion.

who jirix? nah, i wouldn't think he'd be off'd so easily, i mean, he's got a name now, right?

[Snake-Aes]

Aaaaaaaaaaand that's it! V's screwed!

[Wikimaster]

Does this mean that you're going to disappear and stop whining?


Because that would be great.


Jeez.

Thank you. You just restored my faith in the forums. At least for a while.:smallsmile:

[Antacid]

Oddly, I think I liked the comic more before I came here and learned how improbable Xykon's actions were. Perhaps Rich is writing more for the non-DND fans now.

Also, utterly disgusted at the few who attacked JeptCloak for daring to have a strong negative reaction to the comic.

They're not improbable. Nothing Xykon did was remotely unfair or against the rules. Feel free to enjoy the comic as much as you originally did.

Oh, and the people who "attacked" JeptCloak came nowhere near his level of vitriol. So on that subject you are also wrong.

[eras10]

People who are dissapointed from this comic were probably overly rigid going in. There was a great debate about this fight, and quite a few people, including myself, considered X+redcloak+army to be a nearly even fight vs. V. It doesn't surprise me at all that Xykon is kicking her butt.

And we all forgot about Xykon's anti-positive energy bauble. That's an unpleasant reminder if I ever saw one. It begins to seem like spellcasting really isn't the right tool to pull out to go after Xykon. Lichness + Sorcerorness + having a high-level cleric at his beck and call makes the guy much, much much tougher than a plain vanilla Lv 23 Wizard (as *some* of us have been saying all along), and spellcasting is just not the way to bash in X's door. The guy just plain rules at crushing casters.

Think about the record of high-level fighters across the strip at facing down Xykon - arguably 2 for 3. Whereas the spellcasters are 1 for everything, and the "1" is only thanks to a blatantly overpowered Deus Ex guardian virus.

[Felyndiira]

And to think, all of this could have been prevented with a prismatic sphere + spell turning on V's part before the fight, and perhaps a shifting of targets to redcloak. I'm betting that a meteor storm or a plane shift would have taken care of the phylactery quite well. Maybe quickened forcecage on Xykon.

Tsk, tsk, V.

[snafu]

V could be in a bit of trouble here. Now I've got the phrase 'Team Evil: we're always hiring' going through my mind. I wouldn't put it past Xykon to invite a defeated V to come and find out what real ultimate arcane power is about. I don't see V as a Luke Skywalker to turn down the power of the dark side even at the cost of death. She'll do a deal, for her life and for power. She's come this far already, after all... is she prepared to do what it takes to stay in the game?

I'd guess her best option right now is to do maximum damage before escaping. She can teleport out of the Cloister without problems. But is she not now all out of epic teleports? So now she must rest and prepare spells afresh before she can bring the party to the next gate. Eight hours spliced and achieving nothing... oh, how much that will hurt. So I suppose it's remarkably convenient that she first brought the whole party to a place where there are lots of boats available.

[eras10]

I thought this comic was good and appropriate (I'm satisfied) - but I would suggest to Rich that he go back and add some damage marking to Xykon for the strips past the Empowered Sunburst. Just going back to look that up, it looks like at least 30d6, and possibly as much as 37d6.

I'm not buying the "immunity bauble" argument (i know i was in my last post) right now, because Xykon went "nnnnngghhh". If he was immune, he didn't act immune. And giving X around 200 HP, (24d10-ish) two Empowered Sunburst shoulds be enough to check Xykon into Hotel California.

So.. console yourselves, overestimators of V. That wasn't a butt-kicking by Xykon. That was a hairsbreadth-length-shimmy between total victory and total defeat, aided by a nasty trick (maximized energy drain) up Xykon's sleeve.

If the traps hadn't blown her surprise round.. if she hadn't wasted her last Time Stop... if the dang energy drain only worked on one splice at a time.. if, if, if.

But Xykon has been seriously weakened (assuming he's not immune) even in the one round V got to cast.)

[aka Argent]

Well, I just hope that, for once, someone actually thinks of casting Death Ward.

And which of V's splices happens to be a Cleric with access to the spell? It's not a Sorcerer/Wizard spell, so V is pretty hosed unless Red Cloak wants to lend him a hand.

Energy Drain is a ranged touch spell with no saving throw (you make a Fort save the next day to not lose the level Permanently). It's also 9th level, so even things like Greater Spell Immunity don't work (and that's also a Cleric only spell).

[Trixie]

Sooo... Exactly as I predicted. I pointed that "if they really were the most powerful mages in all existence they would be still alive" thing long ago, the magic defenses, too, and the fact that Xykon could very well be stronger than either of these two. Now, with minus 15 levels to both of them he is stronger than both, and he haven't even used his 11th, 10th, nor Epic Spell slots :smallamused:

I love how this triple digit nonsense suddenly went silent, finally laid to grave after being shot down dozen times :smallamused:

As for no more Time Stops - he probably didn't prepared it. Really, devoting all 9th level spell slots to just one spell is dumb.

As for Reddy knowing about splices - well, he has to have Knowledge(Religion) and Spellcraft in high 20ties, so he probably rolled well on his check, especially after seeing them.

Go Team Evil! :smallbiggrin:

[Kalbron]

So V doesn't even have Spell Turning cast? Before going off to face an Epic level lich? Really? Or any one of a number of similar spells designed for fighting other high level arcanists that are no doubt in various source books.

Are we sure V is a wizard, because he seems more like a sorceror with dump-stated INT and WIS at this point...

Either that or that idiot ball he's carrying must be lodged underneath his skull.

[Dr. Cthulwho]

V acting really really stupid and Xykon suddenly showing far more power than has been shown before (+5 levels, surely he'd have used a 10th-12th level slot in the battle against the ghost paladins?)?

We didn't see the whole battle against the Ghost Paladins. Redcloak got there after Xykon had been holding out against them for a long while and had, I'm pretty sure he said, burnt through his higher spells that cause damage.


As much as I'd hate to seem him lose so badly, I think it'd be kind of hilarious if V dies and then rises as a wight for Tsukiko to control. :smalltongue:

One with boots? :smallbiggrin:


OK, hold on just one second... Why the heck would Energy Drain effect the two souls??? As far as I can tell, ghosts are undead << and undead are actually STRENGTHENED Energy Drain... I just want to know how/why what is happening is happening...

Well, they aren't undead, or ghosts. They are souls being used in a special way, and V is able to act to some degree of their levels, so...


I hate to come off like a tool here, I like Xykon and I enjoy the story until now. Likewise, everyone conceded Xykon couldn't be destroyed. This was also fine. But as pleased as I am to finally be able to see them fight, this story is badly written, and a big letdown.

Well, you say you like the story but then say the story is badly written. Perhaps you mean this particular scene?

I don't think it is badly written. I never thought V would out and out win here, my only concern was the reason for V not winning being well written and thought out, and I think that it is both.


Let's examine the things they've needed to do in order to have Xykon get the upper hand:
1) V teleports in with no buffs, then inexplicibly he makes his first spell a Time Stop, in order to put on Buffs. This is a little far fetched. This is ok though, I could buy it, it just pales in comparison to the other swill we've been given.

He should still have some left over from his fight with the ABD.

And you are assuming he is casting time stop to put on buffs, presumably because that is how he used it with the ABD. However there are a lot of other things he could be doing with time stopped, making it a pretty good tactic to start of with (especially after popping into a totally unknown area facing unknown risks). That is why it is such a high level spell - it lets you do some devastating things if you are creative with it.


2) Xykon is now lvl 26 or more apparently. Despite Durkon being able to dispel his magic, despite every way he has been portrayed to date, and despite his fights with Roy, Xykon is now lvl 26. Bad writing, not to mention effectively impossible.

What about his fights with Roy? He dominated both, and lost the first time thanks to the Gate. Not sure how Durkon dispelling proves anything either.

And we have never had anything concrete about his level up till now, or what has been happening since we last saw him.


3) V was promised power that dwarfed the greatest arcane user in the history of the multiverse.

By the IFCC? It sounds a bit like some Faustian character later saying "but this isn't what I expected! *Waaaiiiil!*".

And besides, who said he didn't get just that? Just because in he end he lost it/misused it doesn't mean he didn't have it. And of course remember - he got that with three souls. He has lost the most powerful one, and the remaining two have lost levels.


Now it's being portrayed as "splice doesn't stack",

We were never given a sheet outlining the rules of the splice. The IFCC gave V, and us, and reasonable but not comprehensive amount of information (which isn't surprising). From that assumptions are made about its specifics.


"Jephton is lvl 21?",

Really? :smallconfused:


Ganeron isn't nearly as good as we thought (no more Time Stops? WTF?

Well neither of the remaining souls were as good as the first to get away. But above you criticized V using a time stop. Now you criticise the fact more spell slots weren't taken up with time stop. Especially after the first energy drain shook things up.


That means no more Epic Teleports were available either, which makes it even more implausible,

How so? And you know, the energy draining.


how the hell was V supposed to return after, given he has no knowledge of the type of barrier in the way?), which again undermines the story.

V isn't exactly thinking rationally, which is the point *coughpowermadcough*. And he isn't bothered by the barrier (which I don't remember blocking people popping out, but rather popping in).


Plus we get Xykon mocking the idea of powerful arcane users dying,

That seems picky. This is Xykon. Trash talking even serious opponents is one of his feats. He did it with Roy, Soon etc.

And not really anyway, he is mocking V being taken by the concept of how powerful they are, when Xykon pretty much points out that what it boils down to is V using two souls that didn't have what it takes to stay in the game.


a) he has no idea if these guys are Liches or what

Why would it matter if they were?


b) he himself in fact almost died, and was saved by a sheer miracle of Miko stupidity.

And again so what?


4) Despite knowing in advance what spells they all have, he apparently didn't realise they didn't have spells he might need.

Except V is high on the power juice and decided he did have everything he should need. That things might go against him with his super magics was apparently something he never seriously considered.


I don't want to think about the stupidity of Ganeron having no more time stops for another moment really. Even with my near to non-existent knowledge of D&D I know that means he got powered down despite being a multidimensional conquerer.

Again I don't find anything odd about NOT just filling spell slots with mostly time stops. V apparently didn't have any choice over the initial spell list they started with, or what they had memorized. He is against time on this and coming off a battle against the ABD.

Plus, you know, energy drain.


5) People know about Soul Splices... yeh, ok. I'm past caring at this point.

Again you are putting a lot of faith in the IFCC telling the truth. Not that they ever said "nobody else would know about single Soul Splices". Just for V not to bother looking it up because they are once a century things, so presumably it wouldn't be common knowledge.

Redcloaks connection to both Xykon and the Dark One should give him lots of rare and esoteric knowledge.


I feel completely an utterly gypped by the retroactive rewriting of the story this comic has engaged in. Maybe it's just my all nighter studying, but I could vomit on the author right now for cheating every reader in this way. I was actually about to order SoD as a birthday present to myself, but I don't think I will now. I'll just get pissed off again. Xykon is at least lvl 26 and apparently any powerful magic user who has died before is a *****, even one with a multidimensional empire. Good things Liches never die... oh wait... No epic teleports left... priceless... That's about as politely as I can describe my feelings now. I'd contract to the Fiends to help me give the author a piece of my mind, but apparently they can lie when they make a deal too. Another great bit of storytelling.

F&%$ you.

Why did you come back with so much more bile and far less rationality after your previous post spelled out about your feelings on this strip?

And this reader doesn't feel cheated in any way.


Well, what level does this make Soon Kim? He took out Xykon without a scratch!

Well, Soon was rather special, as an epic (presumably) in life, plus whatever he became as one of those spectral paladins. He had an army with him that soaked a lot of Xykon's magic and hurt Xykon and Redcloak pretty badly.

Then he hit Xykon with moves very good for hurting evil creatures like Xykon.

[Underground]

I'm very surprised soul splices can be touched at all from the material plane.

To me they look rulewise like ghosts, i.e. (1) undead and (2) totally immune against any damage from the material plane (and (3) completely unable to perform any action, including being unable to cast any spells, on their own).

[marquiz]

A great reminder why an adventuring party is an adventuring party, but not circle of wizards... or why it is order of the stick, but not folks listening to Orders of Vaarsuvius. Admittedly it is a tendency of wizards to think they are prod rear machines, but, going after the potential end game boss, his companions and a city full of their followers?

Well Vaarsuvius is, as a person and character no Xanatos in this regard, nor is he Gandalf.

Ach well, now we get to see how rear prodding Xykon will be... of course, methinks V would be far more safe had se stuck to counter-spelling whatever magic of xykon she could. After all his downfall began right after he decided to move on her own during the War. (and aye, I include the so called victory at the breach)

[LuisDantas]

I too I'm surprised of Redcloak's knowledge of the soul splices. The fiends most probably lied to V, but it's possible Redcloak has a unique past experience with soul splices...

One must assume that it is in some way one of the perks that come with being the high cleric of the Dark God.

You know, like the Red Cloak itself.

Come to think of it, I wonder if Start of Darkness clarifies the exact workings of the Cloak. Maybe it is some sort of soul-binding item itself, which would make Redcloak's odd comment that he should have guessed immediately all the more sensible.

[KyrtFurey]

Oddly, I think I liked the comic more before I came here and learned how improbable Xykon's actions were. Perhaps Rich is writing more for the non-DND fans now.

Improbable? What was improbable?

Redcloak having a plan? It was his idea for the runes after all.
V using Chain Lightning against a lich? That was a bad idea...however, it did get rid of the runes so "Xykons meagre defences wouldn't save Xykon from him"
Xykon using Energy drain? Unoriginal...but its a favoured attack.
Xykon actually winning? He has fought epic casters before - stronger epic casters before - and won.
Xykon being so powerful? We still don't know what level Xykon is. Or what feats or skills or items he is using to empower himself. Some of which would allow him to maximise the energy drain.
V using Time Stop to buff himself? Stupid - but then, he's already buffed. Probably wanted to simply cast more delayed fureballs.


What is so improbable? V is losing. He may be more powerful than Xykon...but he has shot off a LOT of spells in the last hour, he has already been in one battle where he was injured, he was healed by a Mass Cure Light Wounds from Elan, he has a big ego, a blind spot where arcane power is concerned, a time limit and no experience as an epic caster. And Xykons favoured move against epic casters just happens to be one which removes Epic spells.

Really...all Xykon has to do is survive long enough to cast it a few times. And as it seems Vs HP, AC and so on have not scaled....that should be relatively easy.

V is casting as a level X....when many spells are capped at about L25 for effect. But he still seems to be taking damage as a L14.

V got his power - no banned schools, no need for preparing spells and increased levels - and he wasted it.


Also, utterly disgusted at the few who attacked JeptCloak for daring to have a strong negative reaction to the comic.

That's more to do with JeptCloaks manner of expressing his disappointment.

Simply put...the the fight didn't go the way he thought it would. That much is apparent. You'll note a lot of objections have to do with game mechanics....and he says he has limited experience with the game.

The name calling and profanity was also uncalled for.

No...V was always going to lose this fight. The Law of Drama demanded it. What we didn't know was....how?

And when you get down to it...nothing in this comic strikes me as out of character or even a Deus Ex Machina. Well...apart from Xykon listening to Redcloak about the runes but he does do that on occasion.

EJL

[pendell]

I would like to point out two facts that may have escaped previous posters:

1) Cloister only blocks incoming teleports, not outgoing. V can still escape with a number of spells -- unless Xykon dimensional anchors V or such like. But Epic teleport is not needed to leave, only to enter.

2) This is still only the second round of the fight. Yes, things look bad for V at the moment, but drama conventions suggest this might be a bit of a seesaw battle, not just a straight foregone conclusion. I suspect V has to have one strip where V appears to have the upper hand before all is said and done. We still have O-chul and MiTD in their cells as well.

So this fight isn't nearly over. I agree that it will NOT end in V defeating Xykon -- at least not permanently -- but let's not assume that Xykon is just going to energy drain V until she's dead in the next strip. It might not happen that way.

There's still a story to be told.

Still .. it is very likely V will lose. In which case, I wonder if Xykon will get XP for beating two epic level spellcasters as well as V hirself? That might very well put X up another epic level -- or more? One way or the other, it's likely V has just made the Order's eventual task all that much harder.

Pity V didn't wait the ten minutes for resurrection, then teleport the entire party in as a group. If Durkon gave V a Death Ward and Roy was able to act as a meat shield, the story might have a different outcome.

Meanwhile, I'm metaphorically on the couch eating popcorn and enjoying the show.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[King of Nowhere]

WOOT!!!!!!
I've waited for this since from the fight with the dragon!
It really took Xykon to remind that arrogant elf who the main villain is, and why. Not only the fight. "I don't really want to hear your backstory" was the best put-down in the long history of magic duels. Should be worth a morale penalty to V.
I never liked wizards, and I never liked wizard's attitude to feel more important than others. I appreciate sorcerers, on the other hand. I don't have words to describe how I'm loving this!
GO Xykon! GO!






Even with my near to non-existent knowledge of D&D I know that means he got powered down despite being a multidimensional conquerer.
So, you admit you know little of the rules, but you complain because according to the rules the fight didn't go as you wanted?
I have a good knowledge of the core rules, and there's absolutely nothing wring with this fight. The splice is house-ruled, so no point saying what rules should apply.
And yes, V did make many mistakes, but they are all well consistent with V's personality and V's state of mind. In fact, I'd be more surprised if V didn't commit those mistakes.


I feel completely an utterly gypped by the retroactive rewriting of the story this comic has engaged in. Maybe it's just my all nighter studying, but I could vomit on the author right now for cheating every reader in this way. I was actually about to order SoD as a birthday present to myself, but I don't think I will now. I'll just get pissed off again.
Do yourself a favor, buy SoD. You will understand a lot about Xykon. You will understand why many of us were betting on him. Maybe you'll look at this duel from a different perspective after.

[Snake-Aes]

I would like to point out two facts that may have escaped previous posters:

1) Cloister only blocks incoming teleports, not outgoing. V can still escape with a number of spells -- unless Xykon dimensional anchors V or such like. But Epic teleport is not needed to leave, only to enter.

2) This is still only the second round of the fight. Yes, things look bad for V at the moment, but drama conventions suggest this might be a bit of a seesaw battle, not just a straight foregone conclusion. I suspect V has to have one strip where V appears to have the upper hand before all is said and done. We still have O-chul and MiTD in their cells as well.

So this fight isn't nearly over. I agree that it will NOT end in V defeating Xykon -- at least not permanently -- but let's not assume that Xykon is just going to energy drain V until she's dead in the next strip. It might not happen that way.

There's still a story to be told.

Still .. it is very likely V will lose. In which case, I wonder if Xykon will get XP for beating two epic level spellcasters as well as V hirself? That might very well put X up another epic level -- or more? One way or the other, it's likely V has just made the Order's eventual task all that much harder.

Pity V didn't wait the ten minutes for resurrection, then teleport the entire party in as a group. If Durkon gave V a Death Ward and Roy was able to act as a meat shield, the story might have a different outcome.

Meanwhile, I'm metaphorically on the couch eating popcorn and enjoying the show.

Respectfully,

Brian P.The very first drain took out Archsorcerer's epic spells. They lost about 15 levels each. His soul's gonna go splat the next drain, while the conjurer Will probably go way under 20. V's out of steam after 2 drains, and there's still redcloak, which also happens to be level 18+

[HOLEkevin]

One more strip for Xykon…

[Gez]

Xykon just happened to have magic traps installed exactly where he was at that time when he has never done any such thing before?
Hasn't he, really?

Redcloak just happens to know about the soul splices even though it's supposedly something never tried before?
Having three of them, from three different lower planes, is what has never tried before.

Why is V fighting so badly when she knows that Disintegrate, her favorite spell, does so much more damage and would exploit Sorcerers' weak fort save?
Weak fort save? Undead use their Charisma for fort saves. What's the one strong stat of sorcerers such as Xykon? That'll offset the weak save progression nicely. If you want to target Xykon's weakest save, you need to go after his Reflexes.

V has acted like an arrogant dumbass, and his demise has been foreshadowed nicely (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0650.html).

[mlsq42]

Just because Roy/Redcloak can see the Sub-Contractors forms doesn't mean they are ghosts. Just that their souls are tied to V. Hence, anything hitting V would flow onto them as well, like a boat dragging along waterskiers. A strong wave won't take the boat out, but it might send the skiers flying.

And is it possible that X didn't actually cast the G. Invis during the war? Considering he was sneaking in to create a new front/get the gate, he'd want all his spells at the ready, and maybe one of the Hobs cast GI for him and thus, since it was lower level, D could dispell it easier than if X had cast it.

[Kaytara]

Well, this is off to a bad start. O.O

I think it's true that V could and should have done a few things to improve his chances, but that's just the point - V didn't do them because he thought he wouldn't need them. He has the power but he isn't using it effectively. V was almost right, mind you - had the traps been absent, V likely would have spammed the group with Delayed Blast Fireballs and that would have been the end of it. What V didn't realise was that you always have to plan for any surprise factors, no matter how powerful you are. As it's been said, we have seen that Vaarsuvius IS capable of coming up with devious schemes, so it's just a shame he isn't using that kind of tactics here, but entirely in-character given his state of mind.

However, I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss V's chances here. Whether V wins or loses, it was pretty obvious from the beginning that the obvious advantage of the Splice was going to have to go, because "V pops in and is just so uber-powerful that he defeats Xykon with ease" makes for boring storytelling. However it ends up, there has to be a struggle for it to be actually interesting.

Given that O-Chul and the newly-influenced MitD are also out there, I'm certain the battle won't stay this one-sided for long. Also, it would be truly interesting if the spell drained V to being non-Epic level again. With the timely intervention of O-Chul, V would finally learn that it is not power, but the combination of common sense, good planning and teamwork that wins the day. Also, if V loses that much of his extra levels, he'll no longer be too high-level to gain XP, so if he "defeats" Xykon and Redcloak in any meaningful way, that should count, as well. This battle has just become a whole lot more "real".

[Warren Dew]

Really? Because if that were the case, I would think the drain was also split with V.

I think it's taking the highest levels first. Vaarsuvius is currently protected because the spirits are much higher level. This does mean that Xykon has 50-80 levels to drain before Vaarsuvius is finished off, though he'll have won much before that. The question is whether Vaarsuvius can figure out or break through whatever is protecting team evil from any damage, first.

[Zordrath]

I agree with Kaytara. My biggest worry was that V could just blast Xykon to bits with the power of the splices, so I hoped Xykon would find a way to counteract that somehow, otherwise this would have been pretty boring. Of course, now I realize the folly of ever doubting our favorite overlords, Xykon and Rich :smallamused:

I'm sure the setup of O-Chul converting the MitD means something, and I'm eager to see how either of them will influence the battle (that would require V to realize and admit he needs help, though, which will require quite a beating). I think we're in for one hell of a fight.

[Dr. Cthulwho]

I'm very surprised soul splices can be touched at all from the material plane.

To me they look rulewise like ghosts, i.e. (1) undead and (2) totally immune against any damage from the material plane (and (3) completely unable to perform any action, including being unable to cast any spells, on their own).

I don't know why, they've never been described as anything but souls, and certainly nothing like undead. They seem much more like Roy in his afterlife state, only attached to someone on the material plane.

[Holammer]

Good going with the chain lighting V. Try a polar ray next.
In all fairness it seems V did the lightning to destroy the traps. Either way it will be exciting to see if V can turn this around.

[Dagren]

I wasn't expecting this, although I can't say I'm entirely surprised either. I think we all knew that this fight would largely come down to initiative, and that Xykon gaining initiative might very well spell the end of V. Exactly how he got the initiative I didn't expect, though. (I thought that V might waste her surprise round with another long-winded speech, and let Xykon grasp the initiative that way, if it happened) Surprisingly, I wasn't really expecting the energy drain either, although I suspect if I had read SoD (rather than just reading about it here) it might have been a little more expected.


Weak fort save? Undead use their Charisma for fort saves. What's the one strong stat of sorcerers such as Xykon? That'll offset the weak save progression nicely. If you want to target Xykon's weakest save, you need to go after his Reflexes.Damn it, will people stop saying that? I've lost count of the number of times that's been said recently, and it isn't true. Undead use their Cha modifier for concentration checks, not fort saves.

[Omegonthesane]

If I missed any points already made, sorry, I just wanted to be sure I get a reply in at all.


Don't count V out here.

Now granted, the writer is vigorously twisting the rules to give Xykon a chance, but...
This is simply the start of the fight, where the eventual loser is often winning according to the principles of drama. It is highly likely V is going to win this fight.
a-the plot seems to call for V to be taken over at the next gate, which pretty much requires V to win now.
b-the contract with the fiends also requires V win here. She is fighting magic with magic, and he is supposed to be hugely above any previous or present spellcaster. So if V loses, that contract is void.
c-That energized Sunburst should give Xykon about 75 hp damage, meaning he is about half gone already. He can be taken out by good old Disintegrate.
But the point remains that if Xykon wins, he remains with no good reason to leave the city and we need to get the villains back on the road to the next gate.

Energy Drain shouldn't be able to multitarget - if I was DM, I'd rule that the negative levels got divided between Ganonron and Jephton, not applied in full to both of them.

More to the point... On average, Xykon has 174 or 175 HP with all those d12 hit dice. On average, that Empowered Sunburst should have done 131 damage, 66 if Xykon made his save, assuming an at least 25th level caster - which V probably is with even the remains of the splice. This is, of course, unless it's revealed that Xykon is himself spliced with Haerta to get that 12th level slot, in which case V stands no chance of genuine success and will have to Haste himself, fly away.

My prediction for the next strip:
:vaarsuvius: Clearly I have underestimated you. But is that all the power you possess?
Voices: Are you thinking what I'm thinking? / Oh yeah, the elf hasn't cast his own spells...
:vaarsuvius: Disintegrate!
:xykon: AAAIIIGH! *re-dies*
Voices: VENGEANCE! / HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA!
:vaarsuvius: Now I have but to find the phylactery, and my task is complete.
Voices: Finish the job. / Send that arrogant lich to the bottom of the Abyss.
:redcloak: Yeah, take your best shot. Disintegrate!
:vaarsuvius: Aargh! *loses Ganonron*
Jephton: Screw the phylactery, retreat!
:vaarsuvius: There is nothing more we can do here. Haste! *flies away*

*Tsukiko comes in*
Tsukiko: Should I finish off that elf?
:redcloak: I wouldn't. He won't threaten us again, not with the splice broken. What do you say, my lord?
:xykon: (from phylactery) Yeah, leave him.

We also haven't seen anything to prove unequivocally that spliced caster levels don't stack.


Would Sunburst (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/sunburst.htm) be considered a positive energy attack? If so...

SoD Spoilers:
Xykon picked up a ring which sheilds him from positive energy attacks. Quote, "I was in no danger whatsoever" from an attack that was going to hurt him.

Since the Order never found that ring AND since Xykon has been seen with equipment that he had before Durkon's Gate exploded (Durkon's Headband to be precise) then this might explain why he appears undamaged from a Nuke Undead Spell.
The SRD says nothing about Sunburst being positive energy. If it was, it would outright heal living creatures attacked with it just like negative energy outright heals undead.

Also, maybe it's foreshadowing that V is going to use the right spell - his own Disintegrate, for 28D6 damage, or 98 on average, even using his own unbolstered caster level. I can only assume Sunburst was meant to hit Redcloak or Hobbo Priest as well as Xykon.

[The Pilgrim]

V used electricity on a lich! That was Elan style of acting, not V's!!
How dumb is that?

Pretty standard for V. Just remember that early on the series (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0065.html) (s)he tried to use "sleep" on an Elf... and V is an Elf, should know kinda well to what things they are inmune to.

[The Grazymancer]

I wasn't expecting this, although I can't say I'm entirely surprised either. I think we all knew that this fight would largely come down to initiative, and that Xykon gaining initiative might very well spell the end of V. Exactly how he got the initiative I didn't expect, though. (I thought that V might waste her surprise round with another long-winded speech, and let Xykon grasp the initiative that way, if it happened) Surprisingly, I wasn't really expecting the energy drain either, although I suspect if I had read SoD (rather than just reading about it here) it might have been a little more expected.

Damn it, will people stop saying that? I've lost count of the number of times that's been said recently, and it isn't true. Undead use their Cha modifier for concentration checks, not fort saves.

Aren't all undead simply immune to effects that require a fort save?

[The Pilgrim]

So, basically the comic bites, and I'm sorry I waited so long for it. I don't care about the chain lightning btw, that served multiple purposes, but the story has gotten absurdly inconsistent.

Or... just admit you where wrong the whole time.

[HandofShadows]

It was basicaly fordoomed that V would loose. Now V OCULD have won if oneof the follwoing had happened. V had buffed up with spells before teleporting or Redcloak had not gotten Xykon to put up those defensive spells. In fact, it's not Xykon that is really defeting V, it's Redcloak (the spells and the info about the soul splice). All the lich is doing is the blasting, without Redcloak V would have blown Xykon away by now.
I think there could be a few things that might save V though. Where did the rest of that Sunburst spell go? Did it hit anyone by accident? V might be to still run and hide though I find this doubtfull. And lastly, I seem to recall V reading "Plot Holes for Dummies".