Did you really think V was going to take Xykon down that easy? [Archive]

krossbow

2009-05-10, 10:51 PM

I didn't either, but we had a few OMFGBBQ rants already so I suspect that there are many mad at this scenario right now.

Edit
For the record Xykon has a magic item (If I remember correctly it is a ring) which makes him immune to energy attacks like positive energy so the sun burst didn't phase him.

The damage from Sunburst is just "Utraviolet light" causing damage, not positive energy; sunbust shouldn't be blocked by such a ring.

Truth be told, this instance just goes to show how unbelievably stupid of a caster (for having such a high intelligence) V is; lightning against a Lich? Seriously? When using the teleport and nuke strategy, a good wizard should always plan out which spells to cast. V's assault has so far been utter fail.

Laughing Dragon

2009-05-10, 10:58 PM

The sad but unavoidable truth is: while V had the abilities of 3 (now 2) epic level spellcasters, s/he did not have the experience to back it up. Way too many people focus on what a character gets when they achieve an epic level, and forget about the experience it took to achieve it. That experience is what makes epic level spellcasters (or epic level anything for that matter) so difficult to deal with ... they've been through it! They have a larger lexicon of what to do when the excrement impacts upon the industrial air-movement device ... and how to prevent that impact in the first place. They also (according to the comment from Xykon) have the skill points and feats consummate with their achievement.

The moral of this story is: Being given your cake isn't the same as being able to eat it (or, more importantly make it for yourself).

The only question now is: Will V escape with hir life, or will s/he pay the ultimate price for hir arrogence?

Actually, I think that the IFCC will bail V out at the last minute. Otherwise they'd lose a considerable investment, and their plans will have to restart from ground zero. The punishment they will enact upon V will only pale in compairison to the punishment s/he will enact upon hirself!

ericgrau

2009-05-10, 11:30 PM

Ya, I'll admit I did. But I figured Xykon would have some kind of lucky way out to save him. I didn't think he'd actually hold up so well toe-to-toe. Makes a lot of sense now that I've seen it, but hey that's hindsight.

shadzar

2009-05-11, 12:06 AM

Not hardly, but I also didn't expect Xykon to actually be prepared with the perfect traps. Ex-Machina to the rescue.

Quorothorn

2009-05-11, 12:12 AM

Sotris

2009-05-11, 12:30 AM

"That easy"? I didn't (don't) expect him to take him down at all. I didn't even expect him to make Xykon sweat. He's the main villain guys, and if that means it takes deus ex machina traps, immediate recognition of the soul splice, and ridiculous choices for attack spells by V for Xykon to win without even blinking, then so be it. :smallwink:

krossbow

2009-05-11, 12:36 AM

Well, I most definitely did not: before I took a vacation from the boards due to finals (which I will need to return to momentarily) I recall spending a lot of my time pointing out to people exactly how dangerous Xykon is, and that underestimating him = screwing yourself over on an epic scale (literally, in this case).

Given that V killed a large amount of all black dragons on the PLANET with one spell, its not unreasonable to assume he'd curbstomp Xycon, who got his ass handed to him and barely won against one earlier in the comic.

chiasaur11

2009-05-11, 12:38 AM

Given that V killed a large amount of all black dragons on the PLANET with one spell, its not unreasonable to assume he'd curbstomp Xycon, who got his ass handed to him and barely won against one earlier in the comic.

Well, yeah.

Xycon is a pansy.

Xykon, however...

Kittenwolf

2009-05-11, 12:43 AM

Not hardly, but I also didn't expect Xykon to actually be prepared with the perfect traps. Ex-Machina to the rescue.

Nothing Ex-Machina about it.
Xykon has oodles of time, and is inside his own fortress, even with the Veil up, why not take some extra precautions? Gods, I know that my villains do! Xykon is an intelligent, if at times juveline, absurdly powerful caster, why not have a few traps around?
As Redcloak says, adventuring parties teleporting in happens all the time, might as well be prepared.

I've seen players in my game do the same thing. Character completely drunk on their own power tries to go toe-to-toe with something with no information about the surrounds or what the opponent can do. Character gets smacked around because they *didn't* expect what happened.

If V was thinking clearly, had actually tranced recently, took a few rounds to consider the likely opponents (s)he'd face, then took another couple of rounds to think about what *(s)he'd* do if (s)he was the villain, had buffed up accordingly, and *then* teleported in, things would likely have gone quite differently.

Uberwizard goes off half-cocked and pays for it.

And incidently, Xykon's "Stay in the game" speech, pure utter moment of awesome.

shadzar

2009-05-11, 01:10 AM

Nothing Ex-Machina about it.

How often would you have a ward or guard against anyone casting spells other than 2-3 people?

Also consider what Xykon knew about the cloister in that no one should be able to get in or see in like V did.

Now consider Xykon didn't even want to spend the afternoon adding those trap, but Redcloak once again convinced him, which may have saved Xkyon's arse.

Then you have to consider why in only that one room?

Redcloak admits someone often comes in when you are busy; but the odds of anyone that is a threat to Xykon getting in was already so minimal, it was overkill to have the traps.

It really shows how weakminded Xykon is, and how unprepared he can be for things while just sitting around.

Redcloak saved his arse as did the traps, which would have had little reason to be there.

I would say that seems to be a real good arse-pull to have just the thing to deter V from getting the upper hand or first shop in during a surprise round.

Nothing wrong with it mind you, but still it is what it is; and dismissing it as such just seems like one would be ignoring the entire other 641 strips of the comic that makes fun of such tropes, and D&D rules, etc in the telling of this journey of the order. It would be like saying Anakin isn't the child of prophecy.

Now can you deny it was EXTREMELY convenient the traps were there?

Talic

2009-05-11, 01:35 AM

How often would you have a ward or guard against anyone casting spells other than 2-3 people?Protections against Arcane spells by other than you or your Trusted Lieutenant? Not that uncommon.

Also consider what Xykon knew about the cloister in that no one should be able to get in or see in like V did.Hence, the surprise round. However, Xykon is a student of "planning? Not so much. Instead, let's use a sledgehammer" approach. Knowing this, he would be less inclined to think of his defenses as "invincible", since there's always a level of force against which no tactic can prevail.

Now consider Xykon didn't even want to spend the afternoon adding those trap, but Redcloak once again convinced him, which may have saved Xkyon's arse.Which seems to be Redcloak and Xykon's relationship to date, Redcloak being the voice of reason and caution.

Then you have to consider why in only that one room?Not feasible to ward every room. However, the room you do put it in? Makes sense to be the one you'd expect to need it the most in. Ostensibly, there as a fallback location (makes sense, as MitD is in that room - Good for last ditch revealing).
Redcloak admits someone often comes in when you are busy; but the odds of anyone that is a threat to Xykon getting in was already so minimal, it was overkill to have the traps.Exactly the opposite. Nobody reaches that room UNLESS they're a threat. Anyone that gets there has either: (1) Defeated an epic spell... or (2) Bypassed/Overcame an entire city of hostile forces. Both are credentials that qualify one as a threat.

It really shows how weakminded Xykon is, and how unprepared he can be for things while just sitting around.No. It shows he took reasonable precautions, and then went about his business. Epic shielding spell, army of mooks, organized to communicate first, fight second, and magical traps. After that? Whatever gets through, Xykon probably feels that he's a match for.

After all, the last ambush of a similar nature was the dragon, who watched, and waited for his foe to use his best spells first, THEN assaulted. Note how planning=victory there.

Redcloak saved his arse as did the traps, which would have had little reason to be there.Agree, Agree, disagree. The traps have a decent reason to be there. Even if the party fought their way there, he's got a trap that goes after the biggest threat in a group. The arcane caster. Divine? Not so much, as he's immune to positive energy.

I would say that seems to be a real good arse-pull to have just the thing to deter V from getting the upper hand or first shop in during a surprise round.Disagree, reasons stated above.

Nothing wrong with it mind you, but still it is what it is; and dismissing it as such just seems like one would be ignoring the entire other 641 strips of the comic that makes fun of such tropes, and D&D rules, etc in the telling of this journey of the order. It would be like saying Anakin isn't the child of prophecy.
Everything uses tropes. Even when it pokes fun of them. And it's not a trope... At least, not the one you think it is. It's a moderate level of defense, done by someone already proven to have warded his lair with epic magic.

Now can you deny it was EXTREMELY convenient the traps were there?No. It is convenient.

Then again, fast food is convenient. I don't cry foul every time I get a Big Mac. Convenient is fine, when it makes sense, as this does.

Kittenwolf

2009-05-11, 01:40 AM

This could take a couple of minutes :)

How often would you have a ward or guard against anyone casting spells other than 2-3 people?

"Hrm.. there are two arcane casters in my army, including my boss. Magical traps crafted by me have no issues specifying individuals to be exempt from them. I know there are a couple of mages around the place who, even if my boss think's they're insignificant, could screw things up at the wrong time. Why not?"

Also consider what Xykon knew about the cloister in that no one should be able to get in or see in like V did.

My players in my dnd game are going against a Lich who is a former Lawyer. Not only is his house warded against scrying, teleporting and extraplaner entry, but anyone walking through his front door uninvited gets hit with a dispelling screen and then a hidden-spelled dimensional anchor.
And his entire house is warded so that anyone who enters is geased not to break the law (well, specifically theft or property damage).
Magical traps are permanent, and he's had a couple of centuries to make his house secure.
Think about it, if someone busted into your house and made off with your jade monkey statue, after you got it back, you'd make sure that couldn't happen again.

Now consider Xykon didn't even want to spend the afternoon adding those trap, but Redcloak once again convinced him, which may have saved Xkyon's arse.

Nobody even said Redloak wasn't the strategic brains of the outfit :). Though Xykon is pretty good tactically.

Then you have to consider why in only that one room?

How do we know it was only that room?

Redcloak admits someone often comes in when you are busy; but the odds of anyone that is a threat to Xykon getting in was already so minimal, it was overkill to have the traps.

While Xykon may only be worrying about what is a threat to him, Redcloak is also smart enough to worry about something that could stop their *plans*, even if they blew them to pieces afterwards.

"Excellent, the uber magic item we need is almost complete, just a few more rounds...."
*BOOM*!
"WTF? Someone got through the wards??"
*Surprise round Mordenkeinan's Disjuction* "Your plan is foiled foul fiend!! Now face your doom!"
*Slay Living*
"Dammit! There is two months of work down the drain! Why oh why did I rely on one single ward to defend my lair!"

Redcloak saved his arse as did the traps, which would have had little reason to be there.

As I've just said. Plenty of reason for them to be there

Nothing wrong with it mind you, but still it is what it is; and dismissing it as such just seems like one would be ignoring the entire other 641 strips of the comic that makes fun of such tropes, and D&D rules, etc in the telling of this journey of the order. It would be like saying Anakin isn't the child of prophecy.

Anakin was the Child of Prophecy, but the prophesy wasn't what they thought it was. Did anyone consider that "Balance to the force" may be a bad thing when the 'good guys' outnumber the Sith? :D
Ok, dont want this to divulve into a Star Wars argument, but remember "Many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view" :)

Now can you deny it was EXTREMELY convenient the traps were there?

Nope. You generall place traps in the place you most expect to need them.

Godskook

2009-05-11, 01:47 AM

Now can you deny it was EXTREMELY convenient the traps were there?

Actually, I find it extremely logical that the traps were there.

FujinAkari

2009-05-11, 02:05 AM

Edit
For the record Xykon has a magic item (If I remember correctly it is a ring) which makes him immune to energy attacks like positive energy so the sun burst didn't phase him.

Not anymore he doesn't. He lost that when he lost the Ring of Wizardry, back with the OOTSters beat him the first time.

Revenant

2009-05-11, 02:15 AM

"Rule number two of fighting a lich, I'm told, is to know its living identity."

"And rule number one?"

"Don't ever try to fight it in its lair."

—Patentia Est Virtus (http://www.edkeyes.org/fiction/patientia.html), Ed Keyes

Kittenwolf

2009-05-11, 02:23 AM

Not anymore he doesn't. He lost that when he lost the Ring of Wizardry, back with the OOTSters beat him the first time.

I think with something that massively powerful you replace it ASAP, or, if it falls into the "I can't make it and it's not a standard sold magic item", you put an arcane mark on it when you still have it so that you can recall it to your possession when the PCs aren't actually looking at it.

Zack Norglad

2009-05-11, 02:24 AM

Hm... I wasn't expecting it, just for the sake of the story. Erm... I really wasn't sure what to expect. I did expect something epic from Xykon, dough.

Killer Angel

2009-05-11, 02:32 AM

Xykon has made my day! :smallbiggrin:
ah, the style...

...and yes, experience counts even more than power (which was probably greater than Xikon's). Vaarsuvius has no Epic level experience and, worst of all, was too much self-confident. (drunk with power?)

factotum

2009-05-11, 03:42 AM

It occurs to me that relying entirely on the Cloister spell to ensure your enemies don't get near to you is the sort of boneheaded manoeuvre we'd expect from V, who assumes that arcane power is the ultimate power and that nothing can stand against it. Xykon has never been like that--he's been beaten in straight-up magical duels before and so knows that you sometimes have to use other means; furthermore, Redcloak is definitely the sort of person who would consider "defence in depth" to be the best approach to any situation.

To use an analogy from the IT world, you won't find many sysadmins who will assume that the corporate firewall blocks them from all attacks and so they don't need to worry about virus scanners or strong passwords...or at least, if you DO find a sysadmin like that, chances are they're not going to be in their job long!

misterk

2009-05-11, 03:59 AM

Hmm, honestly didn't know. I was sure that V would not triumph, but was wondering if redcloak might have the key (he did recognise the soul splice, which isn't that much of a pull, considering he has the cloak). As for the traps- it seems like Xykon himself was expecting some retaliation for taking over an entire city, so it makes complete sense he could be talked into a rather nifty trap by rc. I like the way energy drain affects all of them, although they should still have a few more levels left. Still curious about how many hitpoints V has, as h** could be very screwed if h** has retained h** current level...

shadzar

2009-05-11, 04:10 AM

Again, not saying it is a bad thing, but really, who would be expected to get into the room in the first place? That is all I am saying. It was even a bit odd for Redcloak to suggest it, except to waste X's time.

If you have an entire city filled with ex-paladins (meaning not fallen, but just maybe some other levels in things while they aren't in service as paladins but renegades) and your own hobgoblin and undead armies, then why do you expect someone to get to you, let alone bypassing cloister.

That is all I am saying. It follows the story well, but for actual D&D, is a bit odd.

Killer Angel

2009-05-11, 05:08 AM

If you have an entire city filled with ex-paladins (meaning not fallen, but just maybe some other levels in things while they aren't in service as paladins but renegades) and your own hobgoblin and undead armies, then why do you expect someone to get to you, let alone bypassing cloister.

That is all I am saying. It follows the story well, but for actual D&D, is a bit odd.

THis is my theory (expressed also in other threads, but is a current discussion):
Redcloack is far more paranoid than Xykon, and to protect your HQ even against the unthinkable is always a good idea: probably RC wasn’t thinking on the possibility of an epic teleport, but on the chance that someone can enter in the fortress, to free O-chul. After all, in Azure city there’s still a resistance movement, not eradicated.
And Redcloack needs to keep O-Chul imprisoned (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0548.html).

Trixie

2009-05-11, 05:18 AM

And just why shouldn't they made a trap? Xykon is bored, he has nothing better to do besides crafting items and making traps. Really, comparing a sensible means of defense to asspull is like saying that Pentagon is being guarded by two janitors and a cat. :smallsigh:

Salt_Crow

2009-05-11, 05:21 AM

well I was expecting the repeat of Dorukan encounter (SoD) but I really wasn't expecting MAXIMISED energy drain!

Felyndiira

2009-05-11, 05:48 AM

I was quite surprised, actually; I expected V to be a bit smarter in this battle, using the same level of battle tactics that hir displayed in:

Azure City: effective use of buffs in a war situation
First Battle vs. ABD: Forcecage to stall
Creative use of Explosive Runes
etc.

I guess I should have expect it in some way with V's new drunk-on-power attitude, although I'd expect at least a bit of the same combat tactics that she displayed earlier instead of charge in, time stop, then blast madly when that fails. Maybe cast prismatic sphere on hirself first to prevent said energy drain.

KIDS

2009-05-11, 06:13 AM

OH SHIIIIIIIIIIIIIII----

Though it was expected. V has no chance now since I guess he has his spell slots and comparable splice spell slots against two casters of equal or higher level than him. I don't see how he could escape too.

Maybe he will teleport back to the party and Xykon will follow him, foiling Roy's ressurection again.

shadzar

2009-05-11, 07:53 AM

THis is my theory (expressed also in other threads, but is a current discussion):
Redcloack is far more paranoid than Xykon, and to protect your HQ even against the unthinkable is always a good idea: probably RC wasn’t thinking on the possibility of an epic teleport, but on the chance that someone can enter in the fortress, to free O-chul. After all, in Azure city there’s still a resistance movement, not eradicated.
And Redcloack needs to keep O-Chul imprisoned (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0548.html).

True, given Redcloak has found a new kinship with the hobgoblins and his growing more tired of having to do all this for Xykon, he may have had them installed just to screw with Xykon, and make him get off his duff and do some work for once.

Dr. Cthulwho

2009-05-11, 08:37 AM

Well didja? :smallbiggrin:

Vaarsuvius is about to get a lesson in why Xykon is the main villain.

No, I didn't know how it would play out, but I thought there were a lot of variables, factors, that would come together to stop V from claiming a win here.

Though I did imagine teleporting blind into the enemy stronghold alone, no matter how powerful one is, is often a bad idea. Next time V, take a party along.

Again, not saying it is a bad thing, but really, who would be expected to get into the room in the first place? That is all I am saying. It was even a bit odd for Redcloak to suggest it, except to waste X's time.

Well, Redcloak, while not as genre savvy as Elan, can understand how the world works.

Plenty of fictional tales have a small group getting through seemingly impossible odds to face down the big bad in their throne room, control rooms etc. And in DnD setting games this is almost a given. Redcloak is just prepared for those pesky adventures who turn up to spoil things.

If you have an entire city filled with ex-paladins (meaning not fallen, but just maybe some other levels in things while they aren't in service as paladins but renegades) and your own hobgoblin and undead armies, then why do you expect someone to get to you, let alone bypassing cloister.

Because this is a world were people like the Order of the Stick, Order of the Scribble etc exist. And there is also an active resistance, so control of Azure City is not total.

Of course plenty of actual DnD games seem to have the evil overlord, mage, lich etc really overconfident in the "they'll never get here through my armies/traps/etc, and if they do my power can defeat them" kind of way - and how many of those individuals could have done with the kind of traps that zapped V? More then a few.

Redcloak being paranoid in thinking a magic user might get in somehow paid off (because a magic user did get in).

Pronounceable

2009-05-11, 08:51 AM

Yeah. IFCC fooled us but good...

well I was expecting the repeat of Dorukan encounter (SoD) but I really wasn't expecting MAXIMISED energy drain!

NOBODY expects the Maximized Energy Drain!

Jaysyn

2009-05-11, 10:07 AM

well I was expecting the repeat of Dorukan encounter (SoD) but I really wasn't expecting MAXIMISED energy drain!

Isn't that a 12th lvl spell slot?

Surfing HalfOrc

2009-05-11, 10:32 AM

Um, yeah, that was about what I was expecting. Mostly because I've done similar stuff to players before.

Bad guys plan ahead, set up traps and anti-magic zones, and MODIFY and ADD STUFF to their "Fortresses of Doom" all the time. That secret back door you waltzed through last time? Now it has a guillotine trap. That guard you bribed? He got caught, and was executed, while a more trusted guard (who witnessed the rather gory execution firsthand) is now hidden under a Disguise Spell, waiting for "his old friends, the PCs."

Why V didn't prepare for a Lich is beyond me, s/he should have expected the Lich to prepare for hir. Afterall, Xykon and his hobgoblin buddies is why V is under-rested and overpowered! V is too clever to use Xykon's "Hit it until it stops moving" technique, but s/he should have been clever enough to look through the MM and look up "Lich, immunities and powers." S/he's known about Xykon for quite some time now, AND spent a bit of time in a well supplied library...

So now the real question is:

Smackdown or Job Offer? Or both, in that order?

King of Nowhere

2009-05-11, 01:05 PM

Of course plenty of actual DnD games seem to have the evil overlord, mage, lich etc really overconfident in the "they'll never get here through my armies/traps/etc, and if they do my power can defeat them" kind of way - and how many of those individuals could have done with the kind of traps that zapped V? More then a few.

That happens because the pc are supposed to win, so the villain won't destroy the heroes even if he could easily. That could stretch credibility or be good dming, depending on how plausible is the way the villain fails.
The villain of my campaign is very clever and has a lot of money and political power, and I got through hell to find a plausible way he still had not killed the pcs. I think the most difficult part of dming is justifying why the guy who in the beginning is way more powerful than the heroes loses in the end.

In DnD there are people who are more powerful than a whole army. It is from those that you must ward. And assuming one of those is capable of overcoming cloister is not a wild assumption.

Kranden

2009-05-11, 07:11 PM

That maximized energy drain came out of NOWHERE!!!

So I guess the next question is, how the heck is V going to get out of this mess!

spargel

2009-05-11, 07:30 PM

Didn't Xykon say that he didn't expect anyone who would be able to teleport into his room to fail their concentration check against those traps?

Dark Matter

2009-05-11, 07:54 PM

How often would you have a ward or guard against anyone casting spells other than 2-3 people?

Then you have to consider why in only that one room?You take *one* step into a field and you hit a landmine which blows up on you.

So obviously it was your bad luck and that Must be the only one?

Smart money says this isn't the only trap, it's just the first one we've seen. V just stepped into a mine field.

Callos_DeTerran

2009-05-11, 07:56 PM

Yes, I did expect V to fail at this attempt bad. I've said as much before. I've also privately thought that Xykon would kill V since...well...it just seems like whats going to happen. Except instead of them ressing V, the 'player' will be rolling up a new character or even be handed the reigns of another (Cecelia possibly, imagine the humor in that).

Now I just find it more likely considering Xykon's little 'Your worried about me escaping? Somebody got two scoops of self-esteem in their bran today!' So let it be noted! I was the first to voice the opinion V might very well die.

shadzar

2009-05-11, 08:15 PM

You take *one* step into a field and you hit a landmine which blows up on you.

So obviously it was your bad luck and that Must be the only one?

Smart money says this isn't the only trap, it's just the first one we've seen. V just stepped into a mine field.

Well then if I were V I would set them all off and consider the remaining Azurites as expendable for the greater good, if it will take Xykon out.

Sphere of Annihilation 10km wide anyone? Let's see that rift contend with that!

The Wanderer

2009-05-11, 10:27 PM

Did you really think V was going to take Xykon down that easy?

Oh, be nice now. This is the internet. The average user has a low Wis score. :smallwink:

mirth7

2009-05-12, 01:56 AM

Vaarsuvius can not kill Xykon because the plot says it so. Much like a movie or episode of Star Trek. The villain and the captain must meet; would of been a change of pace though.

Maybe if Vaarsuvius had a 80's montage.

Tijne

2009-05-12, 02:24 AM

:belkar: "We keep overcoming plot obstacles at this pace, we'll be killing Xykon five strips from now!"

Since it's only been four strips since... ....I'd say we're only one strip away....

Kidding!

The MunchKING

2009-05-12, 03:04 AM

The damage from Sunburst is just "Utraviolet light" causing damage, not positive energy; sunbust shouldn't be blocked by such a ring.

Truth be told, this instance just goes to show how unbelievably stupid of a caster (for having such a high intelligence) V is; lightning against a Lich? Seriously?

Taking out the traps that neem you everytime you cast a spell is stupid now?

You'd have prefered she kept trying to zap Xykon with something that would kill him and let the glyphs do all his work killing her for him??

shadzar

2009-05-12, 03:04 AM

:belkar: "We keep overcoming plot obstacles at this pace, we'll be killing Xykon five strips from now!"

Since it's only been four strips since... ....I'd say we're only one strip away....

Kidding!

It has only been 2. 3 if you count the bottom and top as a single page for the compilation. So there is 2 more strips before Belkar's lie (you can't trust anything I say in the last panel") to be revealed.

The MunchKING

2009-05-12, 03:05 AM

Well, Redcloak, while not as genre savvy as Elan, can understand how the world works.

Plenty of fictional tales have a small group getting through seemingly impossible odds to face down the big bad in their throne room, control rooms etc. And in DnD setting games this is almost a given. Redcloak is just prepared for those pesky adventures who turn up to spoil things.

Not to mention he flat out SAID V wasn't the first to try, a dozen druids had attacked him from their potted plant...

Dr. Cthulwho

2009-05-12, 03:11 AM

Not to mention he flat out SAID V wasn't the first to try, a dozen druids had attacked him from their potted plant...

Exactly. This is a world where it pays to be prepared both for enemies at the gate and druids in the pot plants.

krossbow

2009-05-12, 03:20 AM

Taking out the traps that neem you everytime you cast a spell is stupid now?

You'd have prefered she kept trying to zap Xykon with something that would kill him and let the glyphs do all his work killing her for him??

No, you cast a spell that actually does its job.

Such as cast a gate spell, bring in something that can curb stomp EVERYTHING, and THEN on the following round worry about the traps.

As another option, use the energy substitution feat; Hell, there's at on of options available.

shadowkire

2009-05-12, 03:25 AM

Again, not saying it is a bad thing, but really, who would be expected to get into the room in the first place? That is all I am saying. It was even a bit odd for Redcloak to suggest it, except to waste X's time.
Epic level casters, they can punch through the Cloister.

The Cloister spell is really just a defense against non-threats, people who are too weak to really bother Xykon but could be annoying to have to deal with.

The same applies to when someone locks their car, people who aren't really interested in stealing a car won't bust into a locked one. But the people you need to watch out for are the people who do want to steal a car because they can just break your window.

car alarms = anti-arcane casting traps.

Fishy

2009-05-12, 03:31 AM

It's called the sheathed sword (http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/2-the-sheathed-sword.html). The Cloister and the magic traps (plural) aren't part of the game, they're 'you must be this tall to ride'. It goes right back to Sun Tsu, or whoever's the goblin equivalent that Redcloak has obviously been reading.

The MunchKING

2009-05-12, 03:32 AM

No, you cast a spell that actually does its job.

Such as cast a gate spell, bring in something that can curb stomp EVERYTHING, and THEN on the following round worry about the traps.

Ooops! You got zapped again, now you're down ANOTHER 9th level spell. Bad luck on the concentration checks...

If only you had gone for a spell a few Levels lower! You might have made the check!!

krossbow

2009-05-12, 03:35 AM

Ooops! You got zapped again, now you're down ANOTHER 9th level spell. Bad luck on the concentration checks...

If only you had gone for a spell a few Levels lower! You might have made the check!!

Too bad whatever you gated in will absolutely RAPE the traps for you.

The MunchKING

2009-05-12, 03:37 AM

Too bad whatever you gated in will absolutely RAPE the traps for you.

Except you know, you blow the Concentration check, you DON'T GET OFF THE SPELL.

Sort of like I dunno, the Time stop at the Beggining of the Encounter??

krossbow

2009-05-12, 03:59 AM

Depends on what V's concentration levels are in this state; My assumption here is that with her epic levels she could have quickened a gate spell instead of a chain lightning. She was able empower a Sunburst spell, and given that the souls are listed as being the most powerful the fiends had at hand, i assume from this that she should be suitably powerful to quicken a gate spell (those traps apparently only get one shot per round at most, seeing as how they did nothing during the quickened chain lightning).
Even if she couldn't quicken a gate spell, there are still tons of better spells to quicken instead. As an example, darkbolt would not have dealt damage to xycon, but it would still have demolished the traps while having the chance to daze xycon, robbing him of his ability to level drain her.

Moreover, past that she STILL could should have gated in something rather than sunbursting. That right there was just plain dumb. Gate, with V's caster level, is basically an instant win right here. Even if V couldn't quicken it it could have been done instead of a sunburst spell.

The MunchKING

2009-05-12, 04:13 AM

Depends on what V's concentration levels are in this state; My assumption here is that with her epic levels she could have quickened a gate spell instead of a chain lightning.

A) that's a 13th Level spell, Best of luck.

B) If she dropped the 9th level spell, why would you assume she could make a 13th level check plus damage?

She was able empower a Sunburst spell, and given that the souls are listed as being the most powerful the fiends had at hand, i assume from this that she should be suitably powerful to quicken a gate spell (those traps apparently only get one shot per round at most, seeing as how they did nothing during the quickened chain lightning).
Even if she couldn't quicken a gate spell, there are still tons of better spells to quicken instead. As an example, darkbolt would not have dealt damage to xycon, but it would still have demolished the traps while having the chance to daze xycon, robbing him of his ability to level drain her.

Aren't Liches immune to being dazed?

Moreover, past that she STILL could should have gated in something rather than sunbursting. That right there was just plain dumb. Gate, with V's caster level, is basically an instant win right here. Even if V couldn't quicken it it could have been done instead of a sunburst spell.

Yeah cause Gate worked real well the LAST time it was used against Xykon...

I mean the other thread goes on about how V repeats Duroken's mistakes and you want him to go whole hog with it??

krossbow

2009-05-12, 04:18 AM

I mean the other thread goes on about how V repeats Duroken's mistakes and you want him to go whole hog with it??

Duroken was an idiot, fullstop. Instead of gateing in something like a solar, he chose to gate in mooks.

Simply because an idiot is unable to use a nuke effectively doesn't mean it won't work in the hands of someone competent.

A) that's a 13th Level spell, Best of luck.
If you look at the comic, V does NOT get blasted in any way by the traps when quickening chain lightning; hence it seems they only can blast once per round. She gets blasted quickening Time stop because its being done as her first spell that round.

(below: here you go! Energy drain is particularly NASTY spell)
Necromancy

Level: Clr 9, Sor/Wiz 9
Saving Throw: Fortitude partial; see text for enervation

This spell functions like enervation, except that the creature struck gains 2d4 negative levels, and the negative levels last longer.

There is no saving throw to avoid gaining the negative levels, but 24 hours after gaining them, the subject must make a Fortitude saving throw (DC = energy drain spell’s save DC) for each negative level. If the save succeeds, that negative level is removed. If it fails, the negative level also goes away, but one of the subject’s character levels is permanently drained.

An undead creature struck by the ray gains 2d4×5 temporary hit points for 1 hour

mcv

2009-05-12, 04:19 AM

To use an analogy from the IT world, you won't find many sysadmins who will assume that the corporate firewall blocks them from all attacks and so they don't need to worry about virus scanners or strong passwords...or at least, if you DO find a sysadmin like that, chances are they're not going to be in their job long!

I'm afraid there are a lot of crappy sysadmins out there who manage to hold on to their jobs because their bosses are just as crappy.

car alarms = anti-arcane casting traps.
Man, you've got nasty car alarms where you live. Do they ever go off by accident?

Also, can anyone tell me what energy drain does exactly? A single spell that wipes out all your spell slots sounds pretty killer to me.

Tempest Fennac

2009-05-12, 04:27 AM

Energy Drain bestows 2d4 Negative levels on 1 person. Each negative level drains 5 HPs, 1 spel slot from the highest level you can cast and grants a -1 penalty for pretty much everything. As far as the last time Gate was used on Xykon went, the fact that multiple small Outsiders rather then 1 hugely powerful one were called in could have been a problem. Regarding car alarms, I remember seeing one which used flame-throwers (I'm guessing it's not commercially available, though).

mcv

2009-05-12, 05:29 AM

Regarding car alarms, I remember seeing one which used flame-throwers (I'm guessing it's not commercially available, though).

Over here car alarms just annoy the neighbours. Flamethrowers sound like more fun.

Killer Angel

2009-05-12, 06:38 AM

Duroken was an idiot, fullstop. Instead of gateing in something like a solar, he chose to gate in mooks.

Simply because an idiot is unable to use a nuke effectively doesn't mean it won't work in the hands of someone competent.

Actually, V. is not "someone competent". He has no experience of fights using epic spells, or 9th lev. spells. He's a mid-high level wizard, who's using a spell selection far beyond his standard routine.
Mistakes are common, 'specially if you are drunk with power and think you're unbeatable, and if you are very tired, having deprived yourself of sleep trance.

Trixie

2009-05-12, 07:32 AM

Depends on what V's concentration levels are in this state; My assumption here is that with her epic levels she could have quickened a gate spell instead of a chain lightning. She was able empower a Sunburst spell, and given that the souls are listed as being the most powerful the fiends had at hand, i assume from this that she should be suitably powerful to quicken a gate spell (those traps apparently only get one shot per round at most, seeing as how they did nothing during the quickened chain lightning).

...

I'm assuming you don't know how ridiculous a quickened gate would be?

If V could do that, a maximized empowered delayed blast fireball would be much better. Quickening a Gate is an excellent way to uselessly waste a ton of resources.

Plus, that tactic was tried before, and utterly failed.

krossbow

2009-05-12, 02:50 PM

...
Plus, that tactic was tried before, and utterly failed.

As i said before, the gate tactic failed because duroken was an idiot. Gate only failed before because duroken would have basically won the fight if he used gate properly, and the plot demanded otherwise.

Gate is one of the most broken spells in D&D; when used properly, there is no way to deny its power. Bringing in a CR 23 monster who casts like a level 20 cleric would do a hell of a lot more than any of the spells v has used so far.

The MunchKING

2009-05-12, 03:05 PM

As i said before, the gate tactic failed because duroken was an idiot. Gate only failed before because duroken would have basically won the fight if he used gate properly, and the plot demanded otherwise.

Gate is one of the most broken spells in D&D; when used properly, there is no way to deny its power. Bringing in a CR 23 monster who casts like a level 20 cleric would do a hell of a lot more than any of the spells v has used so far.

Assuming it wanted to work for her in the first place...

tyckspoon

2009-05-12, 03:32 PM

Assuming it wanted to work for her in the first place...

Calling a creature for a short-term service (participating in one fight is explicitly noted as such) doesn't require agreement; the spell compels the service.

If Gate was available to the splice, it was probably one of Ganonron the Conjurer's spells. It probably would have been used if the Time Stop succeeded; laying down multiple summons/callings is one of the more effective ways around Time Stop's limits, and a tactic Ganon would likely be quite familiar with. But that was before the Energy Drains; after the first one, Ganon could have lost the slot he used to prep Gate. After the second one, it's nearly a certainty.

JonahFalcon

2009-05-12, 03:53 PM

Well didja? :smallbiggrin:

Um, NO! For one, it would make for a really, REALLY anticlimax and a boring end.

The MunchKING

2009-05-12, 04:27 PM

Calling a creature for a short-term service (participating in one fight is explicitly noted as such) doesn't require agreement; the spell compels the service.

Well, yes, but calling an epic powered creature of Good to serve the cause of evil is ASKING to be beat down by your "ally" the second the battle's over. :smallamused:

Kalbron

2009-05-12, 06:08 PM

Dismissal on them afterwards then? Surely Xykon counts as far more Evil than V's supposed "evil" at any rate.

Then again, unless V gets down on his knees and begs Rich to not be the Universe's chewtoy his chances of victory are nil and odds are that anything he summons will commence a beatdown on him. :smalltongue:

krossbow

2009-05-12, 08:42 PM

Well, yes, but calling an epic powered creature of Good to serve the cause of evil is ASKING to be beat down by your "ally" the second the battle's over. :smallamused:

Wait, Killing a lich bent on tampering with the fabric of the universe is evil now? While a Solar might take a dim view of V's means of defeating xykon, its its unlikely that the solar would outright kill V for doing what is essentially a GOOD act.
As the fiends themselves stated, the soul splice has had no impact upon V's alignment; even detect evil still shouldn't show V up as being evil.

That being said, tyckspoon is probably right, so i doubt we'll see gate used this battle. Though this doesn't excuse V from basically wasting a round using empowered sunburst instead of Gate, its a good explanation for why he won't use gate in the future.
*sigh*, it seems that even when given ways to make up for being a Blaster mage, V still insists on failure.