Why isn't V shapechanging?

[emeraldstreak]

V is still under the effect of Shapechange. Getting energy drained twice while under the effect of Shapechange is plain stupid.

[Evil DM Mark3]

V is angry, frustrated, sleep deprived and under the influence of two giant Egos. Shapechange would also be of rather limited help, really he has no chance whatever shape he is. Mr Lich clearly has a huge advantage in power.

[emeraldstreak]

Hrm? Immunity to energy drain won't be of any help?

[Felyndiira]

I guess V is just too power-struck and trance-deprived to remember that he could transform into XykonCLONE v1 :smalltongue:.

Though, for some reason, I expect him to transform into a dragon instead to face X.

[Evil DM Mark3]

Hrm? Immunity to energy drain won't be of any help?Not really. All that the opposition has to do is switch to a different spell, the power gap just seems too big. They only killed him last time by using McGuffin level power.

[factotum]

How would shapechanging make him immune to Energy Drain?

[Dacia Brabant]

I wouldn't recommend shapechanging into an undead since Redcloak is right there, he could rebuke/command you and then you're screwed.

But...cast Shield on yourself then Shapechange into a Will-o-Wisp. There, now you're immune to all magic (except Maze, though with a high Int it won't last but a few rounds at most so it won't really matter) and they can speak so you can still cast at least verbal spells, and if you have Still Spell it's pretty much win.


How would shapechanging make him immune to Energy Drain?

Shapechange allows the caster to assume the form of any non-unique creature of any type, including undead even, and you gain all of its Supernatural qualities. So shapechange into something with immunities to negative energy and there you go.

If non-core is allowed, Shadow Dragon is a good option for this.

[Dagren]

I wouldn't recommend shapechanging into an undead since Redcloak is right there, he could rebuke/command you and then you're screwed.Something tells me Redcloak probably couldn't rebuke a 25 HD undead. He's, what, a few levels higher than the Order?

[Kaytara]

Yeah, I hope V remembers the Shapechanging thing before too long. :/ It's such an absurdly powerful spell, after all, and the fact that we've just been reminded that it's still active is hopefully foreshadowing. Maybe we've also been shown exactly how easily V can crush a human skeleton, but that is probably hoping for too much.

[Dacia Brabant]

Something tells me Redcloak probably couldn't rebuke a 25 HD undead. He's, what, a few levels higher than the Order?

Oh right, I forgot the Hit Die limit on Shapechange is based on Caster Level, not your own HD, and V's CL (at least when he cast it) would have reached the 25 maximum. Redcloak would need to be Epic himself (minimum level 21) to rebuke undead that powerful, and while that's possible it's rather unlikely.

So...yeah, after that first Energy Drain V should've shapechanged into a 25-HD Dread Wraith or Nightwalker something. What good is having "Ultimate Arcane Power" if you're not using it?

[Dagren]

So...yeah, after that first Energy Drain V should've shapechanged into a 25-HD Dread Wraith or Nightwalker something. What good is having "Ultimate Arcane Power" if you're not using it?I'm guessing that V isn't shapechanging because she's fixated upon magical power at the moment, and that's why changing into a melee monster like a dragon (which would deny her her spells) isn't an option for her. (using magic to get the ABD facehugger-style is one thing, but switching to a dragon for the melee power is a bit different) Still, I would be quite pleased if V changes into a skeletal dragon (core) or something in the next strip, that should hopefully even the playing field a bit.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

A couple of things:

1) Shapechanging into a creature requires being familiar with that creature. I don't think V is familiar with any 25 HD undead (or any 25 HD anything for that matter) because we've never seen the OotS fight such a creature. Before Joining OotS V was about 8th level so at most she could survive an encounter with a CR 8 creature to be familiar with them. The only familiar creature was a dragon-and she did change into one.

2) Shapechanging unto an undead creature might protect V. It won't protect the Soulsplices.

3) Shapechanging into a Will o Wisp will prevent V from making the somatic components of spells or using any material components.

[with an e]

1) Shapechanging into a creature requires being familiar with that creature. I don't think V is familiar with any 25 HD undead (or any 25 HD anything for that matter) because we've never seen the OotS fight such a creature.
You're thinking of wild shape. The alter self series of arcane spells do not have the familiarity limitation. All V needs is to know about the creature. In addition, constructs are also immune to energy drain, so undead isn't the only option. The souls can certainly tell V about 20+ HD undead or constructs.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

You can become just about anything you are familiar with
Taken directly from the Shapechange spell description...

[Kaytara]

Don't forget that Vaarsuvius became rather unforgettably familiar with a certain death knight with high spell resistance... ;) It WOULD be rather fitting if he used that now.

[with an e]

Taken directly from the Shapechange spell description...

The form chosen must be that of an animal the druid is familiar with.
Taken from the description of druids' wild shape. Notice the difference?

[Belial_the_Leveler]

That doesn't negate the Shapechange limitation-it's just a similar limitation worded differently.

[with an e]

That doesn't negate the Shapechange limitation-it's just a similar limitation worded differently.
The phrase only defines what shapechange can do, not what it cannot do. Since the similarity to polymorph--and by extension, alter self--grants the ability to change into a creature with which one is not familiar in the first sentence of the description, subsequent clauses in the description must be phrased as an logical analog of the druid limitation description in order to limit shapechange to familiar creatures only.

[Kish]

V is angry, frustrated, sleep deprived and under the influence of two giant Egos.
I give. Which of the three egos occupying Vaarsuvius' psyche is less than giant? Ganonron? Or Jephton?

[Morgan Wick]

Hmm. I wonder if V *is* using a subtle form of Shapechange into "V with immunity to Energy Drain", which explains why Xykon's Energy Drain *didn't* effect her (only the splices).

[Snake-Aes]

Hmm. I wonder if V *is* using a subtle form of Shapechange into "V with immunity to Energy Drain", which explains why Xykon's Energy Drain *didn't* effect her (only the splices).

no can do. Shapechange changes into types, not supernatural abilities. You can become "Red Dragon", but you cannot become "Schkar, red dragon king, regent of Sckharshantallas". You can become "Drow", but not "Drizzt", stuff like that. If there's an elf subrace that is immune to negative energy, then you'd have good point. V would have to turn into an undead or mechanical for that to work.


Plus, the logic seems to be that the spliced souls are only affected if the host is affected, so immunity on V would mean immunity for them.

[derfenrirwolv]

Because beating Xykon to a pulp with his claws would prove the supremacy of physical might, not the supremacy of arcane might.

[Deliverance]

Q: Why isn't V shapechanging in #652?
A: Because it would inconvenience the plot railroading taking place.

A fight vs. Xykon just wouldn't be the same without verbal sparring, and since V has been set up to bear the brunt of a buttkicking by his surprised opponents conveniently having the right spells memorized and knowledge (Redcloak) while fighting in close range such that Xykon can have fun with energy drain, his favourite short range spell, while V ineffectively casts his long range spells.

- If I recall correctly, Durokan didn't believe in retreating out of range when being subjected to repeated close range energy drain spells either - i.e. "the power of plot compels you!".

Throwing in a shapechange at this point in the fight that was actually effective for V would lessen the spanking in progress, make it harder to spar verbally (depending on form chosen) and make Xykon look less badass.

If I were V, I'd mutter "stupid railroad plot", even when somebody came up with a perfectly good reason for why it should happen exactly as it happened. :smalltongue:

[Code Black]

For a more simple reason, how many times have you, in the middle of a competition, simply not done a move that, in hindsight, would've saved you. I know, as a chess player, a lot of times I'll overlook moves that would've made the difference, or, even worse, I'll fail to notice mistakes that I've made until it's far too late for remedying them to matter.

Now think it double for V, who's sleep deprived, not in his best state of mind, and, even worse than the others, is falsely but completely convinced of his superiority. He's bound to fail to notice faults.

[Haven]

Plus, the logic seems to be that the spliced souls are only affected if the host is affected, so immunity on V would mean immunity for them.

Actually, it's very weird. All the buffs that V has on seem to have protected her, and yet the souls were affected. I have no idea under what logic that works.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Actually there could be a far more simple explanation. The other spells/attacks affected V/Splices about as much could be expected (V, as much as they would. The Splices, not at all, they are probably only feeling the pain, not actually experiencing damage). However level drain has always been described as siphoning away the target's soul. It may very well be possible that the Soul Splice gives the unintended protection that level drain will drain away the Splices before the actual caster. Meaning the Three Fiends could very well be close to losing the final two Splices, not because they escape, but because they were obliterated.

Personally I find it awesome how Big X points out one of the very same arguments against V. That he has power surpassing any mortal spellcaster and pointing out the various ways that REAL Evil and powerful mages attain immortality.

[Kish]

Actually, it's very weird. All the buffs that V has on seem to have protected her, and yet the souls were affected. I have no idea under what logic that works.
I would guess that it drained off the highest levels of the Vaarsuvius-gestalt. Since Vaarsuvius was far below the other two, s/he thought s/he was immune to the Energy Drain.

[shadzar]

A couple of things:

1) Shapechanging into a creature requires being familiar with that creature. I don't think V is familiar with any 25 HD undead (or any 25 HD anything for that matter) because we've never seen the OotS fight such a creature. Before Joining OotS V was about 8th level so at most she could survive an encounter with a CR 8 creature to be familiar with them. The only familiar creature was a dragon-and she did change into one.

2) Shapechanging unto an undead creature might protect V. It won't protect the Soulsplices.

3) Shapechanging into a Will o Wisp will prevent V from making the somatic components of spells or using any material components.

1- V forgot about the undead dragon X was riding while invisible when he attack Azure City with his 3 proxies?

2- Undead are no problem for Redcloak, and why he keeps X around. A quick control undead and V is properly screwed thanks to Redcloak.

3- But would V get the strengths and abilities of said Will'o? Why not shape change into a flumph? They seem darn near impossible to kill, just ask the one Roy have met 4 or 5 times.

[Cracklord]

Something tells me Redcloak probably couldn't rebuke a 25 HD undead. He's, what, a few levels higher than the Order?

Says the people who said Xykon was level 21-22. Redclaok could be epic for all we know.

[emeraldstreak]

1. Constructs are immune to energy drain as well. There are also exotic outsiders, giants, magical beasts, abberations, monstrous humanoids, and probably dragons immune to energy drain.

2. Shapechange is a free action taken before or after your turn. Which means V can cast, change into a magically immune will-o-wisp (or any other form intristically superior to an elf body, but lacking spellcasting capabilities), change back, and cast. V can be in such a form at least every other turn.

3. V is tired, V is crazed, but the assault on Xykon is just plain atrocious. V's tactics are way below the minimum quality for any high level spellcaster I've seen. I realize the Giant has to dumb down V and the soul splices for plot purposes, but this is too much.

[Kittenwolf]

Look, V is surprised, tired, and, unlike Players, actually has to take each round as six seconds (roughly), rather than taking ten minutes to debate and plan each round on the fly or to come up with a plan to counter an unexpected situation.
V is failing to react in real time to counter an unexpected threat in the most expidient way. What a shock!

Other points:
1) From some other spell, V is already immune to energy drain. Got that? Already Immune! (well, as far as V is concerned he's immune anyways), so why would he be turning into something else?
*Zap*
Hah! I'm immune to that!
.. erm.. V.. that got us in the back here..
WHAT??!!
*Zap again*

Not really a lot of time to change tactics

2) Reasons for not shapechaning.
a) You must be familiar with what you are changing into. You can't go "erm.. turn me into something big with energy drain immunity". Spell doesn't work like that.
b) Turn into Shadow Dragon - Sorry, non-core
c) Turn into Will'o'Wisp - Gain total magic immunity. Darn, there go all my buff spells
d) Turn into Undead - V has given us no reason to indicate that he has ranks in Knowledge: Religion.
e) Turn into Construct - Magic immunity! Darn, there go the buffs again. And the ability to speak. Crud, there go my somatic components as well

Seriously guys, stop thinking "Wow, why didn't V do XYZ that I've thought up in the meantime" and remember that V has only had six seconds to go from "Bah, I'm immune to that" to copping it again. Some people just aren't that spectacular at adapting plans on the fly, no matter their INT score. This is quite consistent with V's character.

[Kittenwolf]

3. V is tired, V is crazed, but the assault on Xykon is just plain atrocious. V's tactics are way below the minimum quality for any high level spellcaster I've seen. I realize the Giant has to dumb down V and the soul splices for plot purposes, but this is too much.

Just as a side-note, have you seen what happens when you force players, no matter how smart they are IRL and how well they know their characters, to actually react in something approximating real-time? Especially if you disalow "I'll throw X at the enemy" "No! Dont! Monster A is immune to X!" style retcons.

People playing spellcasters are the worst contenders for doing stupid things, because they have such an array of options that they just dont know what to do.

Tell some players that "Right, for this combat, you get twenty seconds per round, if you dont do something in that time, it's assumed you're procrastinating and dont get a turn".
Fighers and rogues, people whose mandate is typically "I stab him" will generall see little difference.

Spellcasters? I've had mis-aimed fireballs that scorch party members, throwing charm person spells at monstrous humanoids, non-useful energy types lobbed at immune monsters, all kinds of screwups.
What V has been doing and not doing is very very in character for a tired, overconfident, maniacal spellcaster with no backup and no knowledge of what he's fighting, who gets met with unexpected setbacks.

[with an e]

1) From some other spell, V is already immune to energy drain. Got that? Already Immune! (well, as far as V is concerned he's immune anyways), so why would he be turning into something else?
While this is possible, it is not a necessary conclusion from the strip. After the first energy drain, we known Ganonron was drained at least one level, and Jephton at least two (two is the minimum number of epic slots per day a character capable of casting epic magic can have). The chances of losing at least three levels from energy drain is 15/16. The strip does not preclude the possibility that energy drain bestows a number of negative levels totaling to its normal effect and starting with the highest level character.


a) You must be familiar with what you are changing into. You can't go "erm.. turn me into something big with energy drain immunity". Spell doesn't work like that.
Not true for reasons given in page one. Feel free to counter--something more substantial than "it doesn't work like that." Note that the spell description does not say "must be familiar with."


e) Turn into Construct - Magic immunity! Darn, there go the buffs again. And the ability to speak. Crud, there go my somatic components as well
You're thinking of golems (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/golem.htm). Constructs (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#constructType) in general do not have the properties you listed. A marut (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/inevitable.htm#marut) would be a particularly fitting form with which to bring an end to Xykon, who is so vain about his becoming a lich.

[Kittenwolf]

While this is possible, it is not a necessary conclusion from the strip. After the first energy drain, we known Ganonron was drained at least one level, and Jephton at least two (two is the minimum number of epic slots per day a character capable of casting epic magic can have). The chances of losing at least three levels from energy drain is 15/16. The strip does not preclude the possibility that energy drain bestows a number of negative levels totaling to its normal effect and starting with the highest level character.


All true, but from V's comments, as far as *V* is concerned, he is immune to energy drain. Hence the shock when his splices inform him that this is not correct.



Not true for reasons given in page one. Feel free to counter--something more substantial than "it doesn't work like that." Note that the spell description does not say "must be familiar with."

As has already been stated in this thread, first sentence of the third paragraph of the Shapechange spell: You can become just about anything you are familiar with


You're thinking of golems (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/golem.htm). Constructs (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#constructType) in general do not have the properties you listed. A marut (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/inevitable.htm#marut) would be a particularly fitting form with which to bring an end to Xykon, who is so vain about his becoming a lich.

You are quite correct on that one, I wasn't thinking generally of other constructs.
See, person with far too much DnD knowledge following a train of thought and forgetting rather obvious other options :smallbiggrin:. My screwup illustraits the point quite nicely.

[derfenrirwolv]

Turn into Undead - V has given us no reason to indicate that he has ranks in Knowledge: Religion.

This is incorrect http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0016.html

My knowledge of the denizens of the underworld is unmatched

[Dr. Cthulwho]

1. Constructs are immune to energy drain as well. There are also exotic outsiders, giants, magical beasts, abberations, monstrous humanoids, and probably dragons immune to energy drain.

2. Shapechange is a free action taken before or after your turn. Which means V can cast, change into a magically immune will-o-wisp (or any other form intristically superior to an elf body, but lacking spellcasting capabilities), change back, and cast. V can be in such a form at least every other turn.

V did use chain lightening against a Lich, and was then told "Actually, Liches are immune to electricity".

Is it possible V doesn't have encylopedic knowledge of things he can change into that will offer him the necessary protection without nulling what he assumed was a massive magical advantage?

Especially in the middle of a magical battle? When things start going pear shape they tend to do so quickly.


3. V is tired, V is crazed, but the assault on Xykon is just plain atrocious. V's tactics are way below the minimum quality for any high level spellcaster I've seen.

Well, I'd say amatuer high level spell caster. Remembering he has had, what, 20 minutes to get used to suddenly having such power? He did well with the ABD, but when things went wrong with Xykon they went wrong fast, and V lacks the maturity or life experiance a magic user who progressed to that level of power naturally, making it harder to get the battle back under control. Plus he is somewhat in that certain evoker form of "blast first, stratigise later if blasting fails".

Tired, crazed, and maybe a little out of his league in knowing how to best use his new power.

[shadowkire]

Not true for reasons given in page one. Feel free to counter--something more substantial than "it doesn't work like that." Note that the spell description does not say "must be familiar with."
While it may or may not say "must be familiar with..." as a DM I enforce the rule that you have to have at least pass a knowledge check on anything a character has never personally encountered because then it becomes silly:

"I change into a monster I have never seen or even really heard about because it fits best for this encounter"

And I think V would be bound by a similar limitation.

[with an e]

As has already been stated in this thread, first sentence of the third paragraph of the Shapechange spell: You can become just about anything you are familiar with
I have, in turn, responded to that argument: "This spell functions like polymorph, except that it enables you to assume the form of any single nonunique creature (of any type) from Fine to Colossal size." The first sentence of the first paragraph grants the user the ability to change to any creature without the familiarity limitation. "Can become just about anything you are familiar with" is not the logical equivalent of "must become something you are familiar with." The former is an open ended and does not limit the parameters given by the first sentence. Therefore, the limit of shapechange does not include familiarity.

That is the textual analysis. I will take the new opportunity to present an argument of intent analysis. Shapechange a level 9 spell and the next progression of polymorph and alter self. Neither of the lower level spells includes familiarity as a limitation. I do not think it's unreasonable to take the text of the highest level spell in this series to mean that the user just need to be aware of the existence of the target creature.

[Learnedguy]

Why isn't V shapechanging?

Because he though his elven form would be more than enough to beat up Xykon. Now, let's see if he reconsider in V vs Xykon fight, page 2

(seriously people, we've so seen three rounds of fighting. One surprise round that got wasted and two normal rounds that V pretty much wasted in his arrogance. Dimensional anchor? Someone must've gotten two scoops of self-esteem in their raisin bran this morning.)

[Dagren]

(seriously people, we've so seen three rounds of fighting. One surprise round that got wasted and two normal rounds that V pretty much wasted in his arrogance. Dimensional anchor? Someone must've gotten two scoops of self-esteem in their raisin bran this morning.)Of course, if he had hit it would have prevented Xykon from following him if he withdrew. (At least until it was dispelled, but hey)

Having a little more time to reflect on this, I think it would be pretty fitting if, in the next comic, V were to say something along the lines of:

:vaarsuvius:: Become a Lich, you say? What an interesting idea.
:vaarsuvius: *shapechanges into a lich*
:xykon:: Well shoot. There goes my best spell.

It wouldn't be as effective as it could be, for example I reckon my skeletal dragon idea would probably be more effective, but this has the advantage of being more obvious, and it's been pointed out that combat is a fairly frantic affair. Of course, since V already has the dragon in mind, it probably isn't too far fetched that she'd think of applying a template to it. *shudders* what if she goes with both my ideas? A Dragon Lich. That... might turn the fight around.

[JeptCloak]

Of course, if he had hit it would have prevented Xykon from following him if he withdrew. (At least until it was dispelled, but hey)

Having a little more time to reflect on this, I think it would be pretty fitting if, in the next comic, V were to say something along the lines of:

:vaarsuvius:: Become a Lich, you say? What an interesting idea.
:vaarsuvius: *shapechanges into a lich*
:xykon:: Well shoot. There goes my best spell.

It wouldn't be as effective as it could be, for example I reckon my skeletal dragon idea would probably be more effective, but this has the advantage of being more obvious, and it's been pointed out that combat is a fairly frantic affair. Of course, since V already has the dragon in mind, it probably isn't too far fetched that she'd think of applying a template to it. *shudders* what if she goes with both my ideas? A Dragon Lich. That... might turn the fight around.

A move like that would be logical, and would undermine Xykon's badassery... never mind that the Shapechange spell in effect is still operating at lvl 25 effectiveness (or if it's under the hardcopy book rules, double lvl 25, making it lvl 50), Xykon is awesome. If he turns into a Lich Dragon, a giant anvil will fall on V's head.

[Snake-Aes]

While this is possible, it is not a necessary conclusion from the strip. After the first energy drain, we known Ganonron was drained at least one level, and Jephton at least two (two is the minimum number of epic slots per day a character capable of casting epic magic can have).

The moment you drop to 20 and under, you lose epic casting. 1 level kills both spell slots.

[Trixie]

This is incorrect http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0016.html

My knowledge of the denizens of the underworld is unmatched

You are incorrect. Underworld =/= Undead. In fact, in D&D V would most likely mean Underdark, or someplace like that.

[Aharon]

@Snake-Aes
IMO, it doesn't. Energy drain causes negative levels.
From the SRD:

A creature takes the following penalties for each negative level it has gained:

* -1 on all skill checks and ability checks.
* -1 on attack rolls and saving throws.
* -5 hit points.
* -1 effective level (whenever the creature’s level is used in a die roll or calculation, reduce it by one for each negative level).
* If the victim casts spells, she loses access to one spell as if she had cast her highest-level, currently available spell. (If she has more than one spell at her highest level, she chooses which she loses.) In addition, when she next prepares spells or regains spell slots, she gets one less spell slot at her highest spell level.

Since you gain Epic Spellcasting by a feat, you only lose it when actual level loss occurs. Every Spell slot is substracted individually.

In fact, as Epic Spells count as 10th level spells, a character could fall below 20th and keep some of his epic spells:
Charisma 40
Sorcerer 23 Archmage 4
Epic Spellcasting
Improved Spell capacity*3
12th level slots: 2
11th level slots: 3
10th level slots: 3
+2 Epic spell slots (count as 10th level)

Maximized Energy Drain => -8 Spell slots, Epic Slots stay intact.

Granted the Charisma 40 is the hard thing to achieve. I wouldn't know how to right now, but hypothetically, it is possible.

[Snake-Aes]

@Snake-Aes
IMO, it doesn't. Energy drain causes negative levels.
From the SRD:

A creature takes the following penalties for each negative level it has gained:

* -1 on all skill checks and ability checks.
* -1 on attack rolls and saving throws.
* -5 hit points.
* -1 effective level (whenever the creature’s level is used in a die roll or calculation, reduce it by one for each negative level).
* If the victim casts spells, she loses access to one spell as if she had cast her highest-level, currently available spell. (If she has more than one spell at her highest level, she chooses which she loses.) In addition, when she next prepares spells or regains spell slots, she gets one less spell slot at her highest spell level.

Since you gain Epic Spellcasting by a feat, you only lose it when actual level loss occurs. Every Spell slot is substracted individually.

In fact, as Epic Spells count as 10th level spells, a character could fall below 20th and keep some of his epic spells:
Charisma 40
Sorcerer 23 Archmage 4
Epic Spellcasting
Improved Spell capacity*3
12th level slots: 2
11th level slots: 3
10th level slots: 3
+2 Epic spell slots (count as 10th level)

Maximized Energy Drain => -8 Spell slots, Epic Slots stay intact.

Granted the Charisma 40 is the hard thing to achieve. I wouldn't know how to right now, but hypothetically, it is possible.
Epic spell slots are given through a mix of skills. They have 1 epic spell for every 10 ranks in both spell craft and knowledge(arcana). For Jephton to lose his epic spells, something terrible happened, because he lost his epic spells
What happened then? Losing 2 to 8 levels on the first cast, he lost at least 2 epic slots.

[Aharon]

Sorry, apparently my post wasn't clear.

Jephton DID loose his epic spell slots. I just wanted to point out that they count as 10th level slots, so very high level (or very high casting stat) casters could be hit by an energy drain without losing them, because they are NOT necessarily the casters highest slots.

Just goes to show that the Splice was more limited than some posters, including myself, thought.

[Dagren]

Sorry, apparently my post wasn't clear.

Jephton DID loose his epic spell slots. I just wanted to point out that they count as 10th level slots, so very high level (or very high casting stat) casters could be hit by an energy drain without losing them, because they are NOT necessarily the casters highest slots.I'm not so sure about that. Epic spells count as 10th level for such purposes as DC, but epic spell slots are a different thing to 10th level slots. I wouldn't be at all surprised if epic slots disappeared before even 12th level slots.

[Aharon]

Nah, the wording in the SRD is pretty clear:


Epic Spell Levels

Epic spells have no fixed level. However, for purposes of Concentration checks, spell resistance, and other possible situations where spell level is important, epic spells are all treated as if they were 10th-level spells.

I think Energy Drain counts as such a situation.

If instead, you want to apply


Epic Spell

Spells that are different from common spells. Epic spells are usually custom-made. Epic spells do not take up normal spell slots, but instead are gained and used under a completely separate progression.
Epic Spell Slots

A character must have an available epic spell slot to prepare or cast an epic spell, just as he or she needs a normal spell slot for a nonepic spell. A character doesn’t gain epic spell slots by virtue of his or her level and class, however. A character gets one epic spell slot for every 10 ranks he or she has in the relevant Knowledge skill.

then it could be argued that Epic spell slots aren't affected by energy drain at all (in fact, that's the ruling I use in my campaign). As they are gained and used under a completely separate progression, energy drain doesn't harm them - the relevant Knowledge Skills don't change, so the number of epic spell slots doesn't change.

But as Jephton's epic spell slots are gone, I assume Rich went with the first interpretation.

[Kish]

You are incorrect. Underworld =/= Undead. In fact, in D&D V would most likely mean Underdark, or someplace like that.
Except that Vaarsuvius clearly means the afterlife, since it's in response to Roy asking how much s/he knows about spirits.

Mind you, I'd be a lot more impressed with the claim if Vaarsuvius had pointed out that Xykon must have a phylactery once s/he had come unparalyzed after their first fight with Xykon.

[Dagren]

Nah, the wording in the SRD is pretty clear:



I think Energy Drain counts as such a situation.

If instead, you want to apply



then it could be argued that Epic spell slots aren't affected by energy drain at all (in fact, that's the ruling I use in my campaign). As they are gained and used under a completely separate progression, energy drain doesn't harm them - the relevant Knowledge Skills don't change, so the number of epic spell slots doesn't change.

But as Jephton's epic spell slots are gone, I assume Rich went with the first interpretation.See, I would have just said that Epics go first, seeing as it seems a little silly to place them in between two spell levels when they are, practically by definition, game-breakingly powerful. Since energy drain takes the most powerful spells first, I would have it take them first.

[Aharon]

That's a reasonable ruling, but not based on the rules text at all - and for the purpose of comparing the power levels of Xykon's and Suvie's power level, we can either not estimate them at all and just enjoy the story, or we apply Occam's razor and assume that Rich stayed close to the rules most of the time.

(By the way: I would support your ruling, too, but I guess I'm to kind-hearted towards my players sometimes.)

Perhaps I should have written my observations in the Class & Level Geekery thread?!

[Walpurgisborn]

A couple of things:

1) Shapechanging into a creature requires being familiar with that creature. I don't think V is familiar with any 25 HD undead.


How about a lich?

[Kittenwolf]

How about a lich?

Sorry, that's beyond what Shapechange can do. Lich is a Template, not a creature, and you need to transform yourself into a creature.
Unfortunately, the Errata (or FAQ, one of the two), for 3.5 stated that you cannot give yourself templates, you actually need to turn into a discrete creature.

[Kittenwolf]

I have, in turn, responded to that argument: "This spell functions like polymorph, except that it enables you to assume the form of any single nonunique creature (of any type) from Fine to Colossal size." The first sentence of the first paragraph grants the user the ability to change to any creature without the familiarity limitation. "Can become just about anything you are familiar with" is not the logical equivalent of "must become something you are familiar with." The former is an open ended and does not limit the parameters given by the first sentence. Therefore, the limit of shapechange does not include familiarity.

That is the textual analysis. I will take the new opportunity to present an argument of intent analysis. Shapechange a level 9 spell and the next progression of polymorph and alter self. Neither of the lower level spells includes familiarity as a limitation. I do not think it's unreasonable to take the text of the highest level spell in this series to mean that the user just need to be aware of the existence of the target creature.


*Sigh* evidently we are not going to agree here. You say that "Like polymorph" trumps, I say that further restrictions listed in the spell trumps.

Either way. Even if you can turn into things you have no familiarity with other than being aware of its existence, how would V know what to turn into? If you aren't familiar with it how do you know what its immunities and benefits are?
Remember, in DnD it technically takes a DC 15+HD knowledge local check to know that Trolls regenerate, and it takes a DC 15 knowledge nature check to be able to correct identify a Kitten as a Cat.
Even if you know of a creature's existence, you do not know its immunities unless you make the relevant knowledge check. Perhaps V hasn't made his checks to be able to figure out the right creature?

[Foryn Gilnith]

Vaarsuvius has knowledge of the underworld. The underworld, i.e. Hades/Hell/whatnot, i.e. Knowledge (the planes). Not religion, so not undead. I fail to see what takes so long to grasp about this. :smallannoyed:

Just make a Knowledge (the planes) check and find a competent outsider.

Also, from a semantic standpoint, I'd have to agree that "can" is not a limitation. From a logical standpoint, I'd suppose you have to at least pass a knowledge check.

[Kittenwolf]

I have, in turn, responded to that argument: "This spell functions like polymorph, except that it enables you to assume the form of any single nonunique creature (of any type) from Fine to Colossal size." The first sentence of the first paragraph grants the user the ability to change to any creature without the familiarity limitation. "Can become just about anything you are familiar with" is not the logical equivalent of "must become something you are familiar with." The former is an open ended and does not limit the parameters given by the first sentence. Therefore, the limit of shapechange does not include familiarity.

That is the textual analysis. I will take the new opportunity to present an argument of intent analysis. Shapechange a level 9 spell and the next progression of polymorph and alter self. Neither of the lower level spells includes familiarity as a limitation. I do not think it's unreasonable to take the text of the highest level spell in this series to mean that the user just need to be aware of the existence of the target creature.


*Sigh* evidently we are not going to agree here. You say that "Like polymorph" trumps, I say that further restrictions listed in the spell trumps.

Either way. Even if you can turn into things you have no familiarity with other than being aware of its existence, how would V know what to turn into? If you aren't familiar with it how do you know what its immunities and benefits are?
Remember, in DnD it technically takes a DC 15+HD knowledge local check to know that Trolls regenerate, and it takes a DC 15 knowledge nature check to be able to correct identify a Kitten as a Cat.
Even if you know of a creature's existence, you do not know its immunities unless you make the relevant knowledge check. Perhaps V hasn't made his checks to be able to figure out the right creature?

[Foryn Gilnith]

From what I'm seeing, he's saying that there are no further restrictions, while you're saying that there are. Semantic differences.

And I don't buy the "technically" part. Energy drain affects souls and takes away epic spell slots. Not technically RAW, but "common sense". Arguing from the obscure generalizations of rules whose obvious applications would seem immediately evident to common sense is a profound inanity.

Also, again, V has Knowledge (the planes), to identify the underworld - and the same skill can identify a multitude of negative energy plane outsiders/elementals/etc. Shapeshift into a negative energy avatar, smackdown all of Xykon's disciples, shapeshift into an air elemental or other similar entity and fly out. I thought of that in six seconds.

PS: Pardon me if I am overly aggressive or make a fool of myself with unnecessary loquaciousness. That tends to happen when I'm tired.

[TheCountAlucard]

Turn into Shadow Dragon - Sorry, non-core...So? What does that have anything to do with anything? We've already seen so many non-core things already - the death knight, huecuva, acidborn shark, orb spells...

[Roupe]

:vaarsuvius: *transforms into Lich*
:redcloak:hello? priest here
:vaarsuvius: crap

Red cloak should have a ball against a hostile undead creature, command undead for example

[JeptCloak]

:vaarsuvius: *transforms into Lich*
:redcloak:hello? priest here
:vaarsuvius: crap

Red cloak should have a ball against a hostile undead creature, command undead for example

Depends how many lvls V has left... from what I udnerstand Xykon is too powerful for Redcloak to cleric him, though I realise a few people dispute this.

[Red XIV]

b) Turn into Shadow Dragon - Sorry, non-core
Haven't there already been quite a few non-core elements in this comic?


Well, I'd say amatuer high level spell caster. Remembering he has had, what, 20 minutes to get used to suddenly having such power?
V was already a high-level caster. Just not an Epic-level one.

[Lamech]

SoD as to why he doesn't shapechange now: In both SoD caster fights Xykon spammed energy drain. The casters lost their spells as the levels went down. For example Lirian lost her shapechange, so V's is probably gone as well if Xykon's first shot took out the epic spell slots.
Before he lost all of his levels? Lack of planning and general arrogence. V thought he could charge in and then solve things. Bad idea.

[derfenrirwolv]

The energy drain doesn't affect spells that have already been cast. Not only is shape change still in effect, but its in effect at full unlimited soul spliced strength.

[Da'Shain]

Well, I know that (SoD spoiler)When Lirian shapechanged into a giant dragon to fight Xykon it barely tickled him in his shiny new lich form. But she didn't use any spells in that form, IIRC, and didn't try any other forms, as seems to be a viable tactic with Shapechange (shifting into anything you're familiar with every round as a free action, which to me seems ridiculously overpowered but I'm sure others have gone there already).

[with an e]

*Sigh* evidently we are not going to agree here. You say that "Like polymorph" trumps, I say that further restrictions listed in the spell trumps.
The "restriction" to which you refer is not a restriction on the original parameter of the power: as I noted earlier, "can" is open-ended and does not constitute a restriction on the parameters of the preceding content.


Either way. Even if you can turn into things you have no familiarity with other than being aware of its existence, how would V know what to turn into? If you aren't familiar with it how do you know what its immunities and benefits are?
First, since shapechange grants the traits of the target creature, it is not necessary to know the benefits and drawbacks to gain the proper immunities. With the premise that V only needs to know the existence of the creature, he can push the knowledge check to whomever he can communicate with, for example, he can ask the terror of a thousand planes to make a knowledge: the planes check to see what outsider is immune to energy drain.

On a side note, it's 10+HD to identify a creature and recall a bit of useful information, not 15+HD.

Lastly we note that a spell y whose description is "like spell x, except" inherits all limitations in the description of spell x except as otherwise noted. This means shapechange inherits all limitations of polymorph except as otherwise noted. In turn, it means shapechange inherits all limitations of alter self except as otherwise noted in either polymorph or shapechange. This means the following applies: "Your class and level, hit points, alignment, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses all remain the same." In other words, the result of shapechange will have 0 racial HD and class levels equal to the original creature, meaning Vaarsuvius can make knowledge: arcana checks on HD 1 constructs or undead to find a suitable form to assume. V made a knowledge: arcana check to identify a 31 HD ancient black dragon. A homunculus is a 2 HD construct. We must have knowledge (arcana) (mod against homunculus)-knowledge (arcana) (mod against ABD) <= -10 for V to have any chance of failing to know about a homunculus.

[Dr. Cthulwho]

V was already a high-level caster. Just not an Epic-level one.

I'd say more mid-high level. Certainly not a caster with much experience in magical duels with Xykon level opponents, or one well versed in things like shapechange tactics and how easily a good one can win you battles.

It's still a bit of a 15th level (or whatever level V is around there) suddenly having access to what, level 40+ magic? And 20 minutes to master it?

And V has had problem before in some tactical predicaments - trying sleep on an Elf in 65, needing to be told why it might be a good idea to blast the Death Knight's horse in 437...

[Korwin]

Just as a side-note, have you seen what happens when you force players, no matter how smart they are IRL and how well they know their characters, to actually react in something approximating real-time? Especially if you disalow "I'll throw X at the enemy" "No! Dont! Monster A is immune to X!" style retcons.


Is the GM under the same limitation? If yes, fun to play.
In no, change the GM.