PDA

View Full Version : The ULTIMATE theurge??



MikoROCKS
2009-05-11, 10:26 AM
level 4 favoured soul, level 4 sorcerer, level 1 wizard, level 1 ultimate magus, level 1 mystic theurge, level 9 geomancer

Since the geomancer's improved spellcasting can affect any class, it allows for sorcerer, favoured soul and wizard spells all increased at once... It also gets all of the (slightly overpowered) geomancer abilities (like the wings to keep out of danger). It casts as a level 11 wizard, level 11 sorcerer and level 14 favoured soul

Since normally this would have the most abismal BAB known to mankind, it has a +1 skillful longbow with weapon focus (thanks to being a favoured soul of elhonna) and a very high dexterity... with true strike as well this character becomes extremely accurate.

I went for favoured soul over druid to avoid having to boost Int, wis AND cha for spellcasting...

what do you think?

p.s. I dont normally powergame, but its nice to once in a while ;)

Douglas
2009-05-11, 10:46 AM
Doesn't work. For a class to be a "spellcasting class" and thus a valid choice for advancement by PrC, it must have its own spellcasting progression independent of any other class. You could use Geomancer to advance Wizard, Sorcerer, Cleric, Favored Soul, Ur-Priest, Sublime Chord, Bard, etc., but not Mystic Theurge, Ultimate Magus, Psychic Theurge, etc. Likewise, Mystic Theurge cannot advance Ultimate Magus.

Aneantir
2009-05-11, 10:46 AM
You can't use the Geomancer prestige class to advance more than one spellcasting class at a time.

Nohwl
2009-05-11, 11:59 AM
well, you don't have 9th level spells in any class. you are going to be struggling in higher levels. straight wizard will do better just because of higher level spells. you should probably change that. either pick 1 class and advance it to get 9th level spells or pick 2 and advance them to 9th level. getting 3 classes to have 8th and 9th level spells is annoying.

i have been screwing around with theurge's a bit, just trying to get level 9 powers, arcane spells, and divine spells. (the build part of it is done, i just have to double check a few of the rules and make sure it works.) anyway, beholder mage and ur priest both advance casting faster than normal, just add in mystic theurge. if you build it right, you can use alternative spell source to get into mystic theurge faster, and you have 2 classes with 9th level spells in 11 levels (12 if you don't use alternative spell source). if you went wizard for the first level, and took precocious apprentice, (to meet the prerequisite of level 2 arcane spells for mystic theurge) you might be able to get 9th level beholder mage casting and ur priest casting in 10 levels. (you should be able to use rebuilding in phb2 to get rid of the wizard level later on.)

anyway, why are you using any weapon at all if you are a theurge? you don't run out of spells with one full casting progression, and you are using 3 in that build. unless you are doing something to boost damage that i'm not seeing, you are going to hit, and do less damage than the fighter, and you will do less damage than if you cast, i don't know, fireball. you have a lot of spells left unused each day as a cleric/wizard/mystic theurge. if this is just theoretical optimization, chaos shuffle it out for something more useful unless you are doing something with it.

Goatman_Ted
2009-05-11, 01:53 PM
You're cheating.
You're cheating and you still suck past level 4.

Theurge classes confuse me. The Big 5 already have all of each others' spells.

Here's my take on an even better Theurge:

Wizard 5/Mage of the Arcane Order 10/Archmage 5

Step 1: Cast Greater Planar Binding for a Planetar
Step 2: Cast all Cleric spells at level 15, all Wizard and Cleric spells at level 17.
Step 3: There is no step 3.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-05-11, 02:25 PM
The Ultimate Theurge(options):
Artificer 20.
Archivist 14 with Leadership for a Warlock 12 cohort. Now you cast all spells. Go to town.
Spells-to-powers Erudite. Blow up the town.
Wizard 17. Shapechange to a Solar and take over the town.
Shadowcraft Mage. Spontaneously cast almost any spell. Make the DM cry.
Wizard 5/Ur-Priest 2/MT 8/Wizard 5. For when the best spell list in the game just isn't enough.

Ypu know what all of these have in common? They are all one base class+PrCs, with no lost caster levels(other than the last one). They all get 9th level spells ASAP, in many cases having access to them before it should be possible. If you want actual casting from different disciplines:

Wizard 1(Focused Specialist, Precocious Apprentice)/Psion 3/Cerebremancer 1/Ur-Priest 2/MT 8/Cerebremancer 5. (9th level Cleric spells, 8th Wizard spells, 5th Psion powers).

monty
2009-05-11, 03:31 PM
Wizard 5/Ur-Priest 2/MT 8/Wizard 5. For when the best spell list in the game just isn't enough.

Actually, this one's not legal, because you don't meet the Fort save with a wizard until level 9. I believe standard practice is a level in Mindbender, giving you Wizard 5/Mindbender 1/Ur-Priest 2/MT 8/Wizard (or other prestige class) 4. Otherwise, though, you're right.

Goatman_Ted
2009-05-11, 03:58 PM
With Alternate Source Spell or Southern Magician and Psychic Theurge, it isn't especially hard to get Ardent/Ur-Priest/Sublime Chord casting up to 9th level all around.

It makes stats pretty tricky to manage, so you probably won't be the most powerful character in the game.
Fortunately, you knew that before deciding to be a multiclass theurge.

The main problem with multiclass caster/casters is that they're almost never worthwhile.
Arcane Heirophants and Practiced Spellcaster Ultimate Magi are the only caster/caster combos I think ever deserve a second glance (and even AH is pushing it).
The rest is easier to just do in-class somewhere.

grautry
2009-05-11, 05:57 PM
Since the geomancer's improved spellcasting can affect any class, it allows for sorcerer, favoured soul and wizard spells all increased at once... It also gets all of the (slightly overpowered) geomancer abilities (like the wings to keep out of danger). It casts as a level 11 wizard, level 11 sorcerer and level 14 favoured soul

what do you think?

Even if this works as you claim it does - and it's quite unlikely, it's really pointless. Why? Because while you get a huge number of spells, none of them are really effective.

You want to blast? Your dice pools and saves are too low due to the caster levels lost and low level slots.
You want to debuff/save or lose/save or die/battlefield control? Your spell DC is too low.
You want to buff? Sure, you can throw around a ton of buffs - and a lot of them will actually be very effective, since there is a great number of low-level but impressive buffs - but you're a HUGE bait for any sort of a dispel.
You wanna summon? Sorry, but summons of five - or nine even - levels behind aren't all that useful.
Take any sort of task you'd want for a caster to do and you'll find that the lack of caster levels and high-level spell slots will just make you incredibly ineffective.

Think about it, do you really want to be casting Summon Monster VI when the enemy is opening Gates?

The issue is only compounded by the fact that you're at least six caster levels behind on Spell Resistance checks. A creature with a CR-appropriate SR might as well be invincible to you. Higher MAD than a normal spellcasting class will also hurt(though not too badly).

There's a reason why dual-casting classes are not recommended. Triple-casting only makes it far worse. Though to be fair, if I were DM'ing I'd let you play a character like that, precisely because I don't think that there would be anything overpowered about such a character at all.

FMArthur
2009-05-11, 07:51 PM
Sorry, but I'm going to have to agree with the general consensus here. This character could probably be safely ignored by most CR 20 threats. You need to resort to serious cheese just to break even in the "ultimate theurge" gamble, and most of the ways to do it (Sstoopidtallkid listed the ones I know, and a few more...) involve things that just will not get DM permission once explained.

MikoROCKS
2009-05-12, 02:49 PM
the point of this character was to have the biggest spell selection possible to use as utility spells when needed, being able to heal/buff itself and others rather than as a primary caster in the traditional sense... the geomancer levels and the skilful weapon were designed to make it the ultimate all rounder and offset the disadvantages of the mystic theurge.

Oh well, if it is illegal il was still fun to play...

grautry
2009-05-12, 03:12 PM
the point of this character was to have the biggest spell selection possible to use as utility spells when needed, being able to heal/buff itself and others rather than as a primary caster in the traditional sense... the geomancer levels and the skilful weapon were designed to make it the ultimate all rounder and offset the disadvantages of the mystic theurge.

Oh well, if it is illegal il was still fun to play...

Well, you can always talk to your DM about it and ask him if he'll bend the rules for you. Point him to this thread if he feels that this would be overpowered.

You can still play this character, it's not like it'll be a god-awful piece of crap, it's just noticeably worse than a focused caster.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-05-12, 03:24 PM
You can still play this character, it's not like it'll be a god-awful piece of crap, it's just noticeably worse than a focused caster....ehhh, it pretty much is. 6th level Wizard spells, 5th level Sorcerer spells, and 7th level Favored Soul spells at 20th level isn't worth mentioning. Most battles last one round. You won't run out of 9th level spells as a Generalist Wizard at that point, let alone have a use for your 7th level spells.

Heck, at 10th level you're looking at 2nd level Sorc and Favored Soul spells. A Sorcerer 6/Favored Soul 4 is better than you, let alone a Mystic Theurge(widely considered a massive trap). Heck, my build got access to more casting from a wider set of disciplines with less MAD and no Geomancer shenanigans.

Malacode
2009-05-12, 05:37 PM
I'm actually trying to achieve much the same thing as you are here, in another thread. Maybe if we work together we might be able to combine the easy, legal stuff? Look for "Stange Mage Build Help". I'll be back here in a while if I get any ideas to help

Chronos
2009-05-12, 05:53 PM
The benchmark I always use for shenanigans like this is a straight core-only cleric. At level 17, the cleric can cast any spell at all, from any list at all, as long as it's level 7 or lower, thanks to Miracle. So at that point, you can cast level 9 cleric spells, level 7 wizard spells, level 7 druid spells, level 7 wu jen spells, level 6 bard spells, and arguably level 7 psionic powers (based on the "have any effect whose power level is in line with the above effects" clause). Compare this to your build, which can cast level 7 cleric spells and level 6 wizard spells, and even that not until level 20. The straight cleric can cast cleric spells two levels higher than you, wizard spells one level higher than you, and spells from about four other full lists that you don't get access to at all.

Malacode
2009-05-13, 02:14 AM
Few things:
1)Practiced Spellcaster is your friend. You need a decent caster level to do -anything-
2)Only use full-spellcasting progression PrC's. Dual spellcasting PrC's, like Ultimate Magus (Sorcerer and Duskblade with Arcane Preparation works suprisingly well with this PrC if you want a Gish), are really needed to make so many caster classes work. I've done up a 20th level mage with 4 different spellcasting progressions, and the only reason it worked is Practiced Spellcaster and Ultimate Theurge.
3)Have as few spellcasting stats as possible. 1 is great. 2 is useless at low levels, potentially doable at higher levels. 3 is impossible if you want to have decent save DCs', don't go there. A way to mitigate this is to have one caster class take care of all the save-or-dies and such, that require a high ability modifier get good DC's and the other class can take care of buffing and other things that need a high caster level, such as spells with level dependant effects.
4) Arcane -or- divine. A Divine/Arcane caster can't wear full plate and cast without a lot of help (Or Silent Spell and Easy/Rapid/Practical Metamagic), nor can they use their arcane/divine spells to the best of their ability as their caster level will be lower. One exception might be Favoured Soul/Sorcerer, but then you lack vital spells known.
5) There is no 5

Telonius
2009-05-13, 09:32 AM
Venerable Loredrake Kobold
Sorc4/(Cleric, Druid, or Archivist)3/MT x/Arcane Hierophant x
Feats:
1 Dragonwrought
3 Draconic Reservoir
Take Greater Draconic Rite of Passage to bump up your caster level (without actually gaining a level).

I haven't fully fleshed out the build, but at level 20, you'll be casting as a Sorc20/(Cleric, Druid, or Archivist)16.