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SillyBee
2009-05-11, 03:50 PM
Play a melee character in 3.5 D&D.

Tome of Battle is not allowed(though pretty much all other 3.5 book sources are) and the rest of the party consisted of a cleric, a rogue, a sorceror, and a bard.

Starting at level 3 and most likely going to 12 or so.

Obviously a melee focused character is screaming to be played in this group.

So what would you play? Looking for ideas here.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-05-11, 03:59 PM
How optimized and what are starting stats/gear? Any clues on race or similar? Lockdown, damage, or debuff?

Flickerdart
2009-05-11, 04:05 PM
Straight Barbarian can't go wrong, grab the Spirit Lion Totem from CChamp for Pounce and you're golden. Knight will be an excellent choice as well, considering that aside from the Cleric, your party is as squishy as a stress ball.

SillyBee
2009-05-11, 04:13 PM
Relatively standard chargen. Not sure about stats, as they have to be rolled in front of DM. Assume standard WBL

Optimization is relatively important as most of the rest of the group is brand new to 3.5.

I think Lockdown/Damage would be great. Is there a way to achieve both without ToB? Or do you have to choose one?

Goatman_Ted
2009-05-11, 04:40 PM
I think Lockdown/Damage would be great. Is there a way to achieve both without ToB? Or do you have to choose one?

Psychic Warrior, grab Adrenaline Boost, Expansion, Hustle and anything else that catches your eye.
Take Combat Reflexes, Stand Still, Chain Proficiency, Link Power, Power Attack, Psychic Meditation and whatever else you like.
When you get 5th level powers, be sure to get Expanded Knowledge (Metamorphosis) and Metamorphic Transfer.

From there, you should be pretty set.
(From my experience, Constitution tends to take a back seat and Toughness is necessary at low levels. Once I hit level 3 or 4 I retrain it for something more useful, but I feel I should reluctantly recommend it for level 1.)

Edit:
Wait, they're new to D&D? Then why is optimization important?
I'd go Fighter 20 in most new groups.

Eldariel
2009-05-11, 04:43 PM
Well, best options:
Druid (at this point, you animal companion is still a capable tank)
Cleric (although you'd really shine 4 levels later)

With that said, sure it's possible. You could even do it with a straight Fighter, although dips would make you better anyways. If you want lockdown + damage, Spiked Chain is really the only option. Goliath is a fine race along with two-three levels of Barbarian (depending on the variants you pick; I'd go with Pounce over Fast Movement and Improved Trip over Uncanny Dodge with Mountain Rage+Whirling Frenzy variants over standard Rage). Then pick up Dungeoncrasher Fighter variant from Dungeonscape and get Knockback feat from Races of Stone (along with the prerequisites).

Now pick the usual Combat Reflexes/Improved Trip (or Stand Still)/Power Attack/Improved Bull Rush/Shock Trooper/Leap Attack suite along with at least one Extra Rage (consider two) and you're really good to go. You'll be dealing sick amounts of damage with your charges and very decent amounts overall, and you'll have some control capabilities (although you'd want to add at least Deft Opportunist [PHBII] to really go for it).


The downside is that this won't be stepping up for a couple of levels. At this point, you'd probably best be Goliath Barbarian 2 with the variants listed (Spirit Lion Totem from Complete Champion, Wolf Totem from SRD (http://www.d20srd.com)/Unearthed Arcana, Whirling Frenzy from SRD (http://www.d20srd.com)/Unearthed Arcana, Goliath 1 Barbarian racial substitution level from Races of Stone), and pick Extra Rage as your feat (Power Attack on 3).

Level Adjustment buyoff [Unearthed Arcana] would rock as you could get rid of your level adjustment on the next level and catch up in experience over the next dozen of levels. You'd be going:
Barbarian 2/Fighter 6/whatever rest (more Barbarian, more Fighter, Ranger, Psychic Warrior, Rogue, whatever)

Fighter would get Dungeoncrasher ACF (and acquire magical flight ASAP to crash folks into ground) and probably Resolute [Complete Champion] to cover your Will-saves. Feat build would look something like:
1. Extra Rage
Bonus. Improved Trip
3. Power Attack
Fighter. Improved Bull Rush
6. Knockback
then Shock Trooper, Leap Attack, Combat Reflexes & so on. Maybe Mage Slayer and Pierce Magical Concealment later on.

BRC
2009-05-11, 04:50 PM
If the rest of the party is new to DnD, I would say don't go super-optimized. Unless the DM is out for blood, or somebody helped everybody else super-optimize their characters. If you really outmatch the rest of the party, then the DM has to really step things up to challenge you, which means the rest of the party is in trouble.

Now, I hear you saying "But, even an optimized fighter won't overshadow a sorcerer or a cleric". But that's assuming the people playing those characters realize the full potential of their class. Newbies tend to fall into the most obvious roles for their classes: Clerics heal and buff, Sorcerors and Wizards blast things. So, unless somebody shows him how, I doubt this cleric is going to go Zilla on you, and unless you say "Hey, you're wasting your time blasting", I doubt this sorcerer is going to do much.

So yeah, avoid cheese and just make a fun character. You don't have to "Make up" for the lack of experience held by the rest of the party. It's the DM's job to make sure encounters are appropriate.

Dhavaer
2009-05-11, 04:55 PM
Psychic Warrior, Duskblade or Hexblade.

Eldariel
2009-05-11, 05:03 PM
Oh yeah, like BRC alluded, it's definitely worth noticing that while Fighters aren't up there in the power curve, they're still capable of dealing so much damage that a new group will be horrified.

Dealing damage has never been the problem with Fighters to begin with; you can definitely PA+Shock+Leap Attack for very decent numbers, and then start adding multipliers to break things. So yeah, mind your power. But I think a focused Lockdown Psy War or Fighter/Barbarian (like the one I suggested) could be a very decent pick as it's a party animal, much like a Batman Wizard.

BRC
2009-05-11, 05:13 PM
Oh yeah, like BRC alluded, it's definitely worth noticing that while Fighters aren't up there in the power curve, they're still capable of dealing so much damage that a new group will be horrified.

Dealing damage has never been the problem with Fighters to begin with; you can definitely PA+Shock+Leap Attack for very decent numbers, and then start adding multipliers to break things. So yeah, mind your power. But I think a focused Lockdown Psy War or Fighter/Barbarian (like the one I suggested) could be a very decent pick as it's a party animal, much like a Batman Wizard.
Yeah. The reason fighters are considered weak is not because they can't deal damage. They are very good at dealing damage. In fact, Fighters and Barbarians are so good at dealing damage, that most wizards simply don't bother with dealing damage.
Melee classes are considered weak because all they do is deal damage, and hit point totals become increasingly irrelevant as the game goes on and wizards learn how to bypass the whole HP thing entierly. However, I doubt this group is going to end up like that. Instead, they are probably going to stay in the (Much more fun, IMO) mindset of "We defeat enemies by dealing damage until they run out of hit points". They will likely remain ignorant of the fact that there are countless ways to beat encounters besides smacking the enemies into submission. And I say, don't tell them, as it's much more fun, especailly for a melee character, if they keep doing that.

SillyBee
2009-05-11, 05:19 PM
Right, I only wanted to focus on optimization some, as I want to be able to turn it up a notch if needed.

I have enough where-withal to be able to not dominate any game, but I have honestly never played a melee character.

The Barbarian/Fighter idea is nice...
I also like the idea of Duskblade...

Much pondering must be done.

Thanks so much for the help so far, feel free to post more if you feel the desire.

BRC
2009-05-11, 05:27 PM
Right, I only wanted to focus on optimization some, as I want to be able to turn it up a notch if needed.

I have enough where-withal to be able to not dominate any game, but I have honestly never played a melee character.

The Barbarian/Fighter idea is nice...
I also like the idea of Duskblade...

Much pondering must be done.

Thanks so much for the help so far, feel free to post more if you feel the desire.
Can I just say that Duskblades are very fun. One of the complaints about fighters is that they are boring because they have limited options. Most feats give passive bonuses, rather than opening up new things for you to do (Thats why ToB is so popular, it gives Fighters a similar range of options as those available to casters). Duskblades get around this by giving you more options with the spells you can cast. Plus it lets you specialize in melee, while still having some ranged versatility, and if you're used to playing casters, it will be easier for you to find your way around the class.

AslanCross
2009-05-11, 05:47 PM
Duskblade is a really good damage dealer, though somewhat squishy due to not being able to go all the way to heavy armor (and not being able to use medium armor until later).

If I were to do it, I'd likely take some levels in Fighter, but multiclass to either Knight or Barbarian. Bonus Feats are always nice, but I'd like to get some other class features too.

TheCountAlucard
2009-05-11, 06:05 PM
Duskblade is a really good damage dealer, though somewhat squishy due to not being able to go all the way to heavy armor.Mithral full plate is an option. It always is. Makes you wonder why anyone bothers with actual heavy armor these days...

Just saying.

holywhippet
2009-05-11, 06:14 PM
Cleric 2/Paladin 1 - continue levelling up as a paladin.

You have a few spells you can use for various boosts (and healing if need be). Your BAB is only 1 behind a full fighter in exchange for those 2 levels of cleric. Since you are a paladin, you get your charisma bonus added to all saving throws.

AslanCross
2009-05-11, 06:14 PM
Mithral full plate is an option. It always is. Makes you wonder why anyone bothers with actual heavy armor these days...

Just saying.

Definitely, though you still don't get the ability to use medium armor without ASF until later.

Roderick_BR
2009-05-11, 06:45 PM
I second Knight. Get a glaive with improved trip/stand still and combat reflexes combat reflexes, and your casters will love you. If needed, take 1 or 2 levels of fighter for the needed feats.

ErrantX
2009-05-11, 06:52 PM
Cleric 2/Paladin 1 - continue levelling up as a paladin.

You have a few spells you can use for various boosts (and healing if need be). Your BAB is only 1 behind a full fighter in exchange for those 2 levels of cleric. Since you are a paladin, you get your charisma bonus added to all saving throws.

Or you could go Fighter 2 / Cleric 3 / Prestige Paladin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm#prestigePaladin) 15. A fair bit better.

-X

LOLC2k
2009-05-11, 07:25 PM
Mithral full plate is an option. It always is. Makes you wonder why anyone bothers with actual heavy armor these days...

Just saying.

Adamantine fullplate gives DR, doesn't it? Not saying that makes it worth it, but if you're the fighter, or better yet, the Knight with 12 dex... especially the knight, who still moves 30 in the fullplate.

Eldariel
2009-05-11, 07:53 PM
Adamantine fullplate gives DR, doesn't it? Not saying that makes it worth it, but if you're the fighter, or better yet, the Knight with 12 dex... especially the knight, who still moves 30 in the fullplate.

With stat boosters easily available on higher levels though, generally it's easy to hit that 16 Dex and thus you maximize your AC by getting a Mithril version. The 3/- is annoyingly little as far as DR goes, and as DR doesn't stack, it's rather worthless. Oh, and as a nice bonus, Adamantine costs more -.-

Stormageddon
2009-05-11, 08:00 PM
Duskblade is always fun. I have a love hate relationship with ranger as well.

Haven
2009-05-11, 08:13 PM
I second Knight. Get a glaive with improved trip/stand still and combat reflexes combat reflexes, and your casters will love you. If needed, take 1 or 2 levels of fighter for the needed feats.

I'd have to third this. Your party is squishy and newbish, this build will help keep them alive. Between the rogue, the sorcerer and the cleric you probably need defense more than dedicated damage-dealing, so I'd recommend against a duskblade.