Options to still beat Xykon?

[Raenir Salazar]

So what spells does V possibly have?

V seems to have avoided being effected by Energy drain so this potentially leaves her with her remaining buffs, Shapechange, and all of her spells up to a possible few lvl 8 spell slots assuming she used the Splice spells entirely.

What do you think her options are at this point to beat Xykon.

[GSFB]

expeditious retreat.

seriously, that is the best option right now. only a total fool charges blind into the lair of an epic sorcerer lich with a level 20-ish cleric sidekick. if V had been willing to spend just 15 more minutes - enough to see Roy raised then spend 5 minutes eagerly discussing the situation - she could have gone in with the right additional buffs and some semblance of a plan. with the element of surprise, and a clear head, she could have annihilated team evil right then and there.

but no. she may have ultimate arcane power, but she also has an epic FAIL on her wisdom and is now in danger of ending up in the cage with O-Chul (at best) or in the stew pot for MitD... or worse.

Run, run, away, live to splice another day!

[Raging Gene Ray]

So what spells does V possibly have?

It may not come down to that. Speculation: V might free O-Chul, hoping for help from a meatshield and survive due to relying on others. More likely, though, O-Chul gets killed and V calls him and his class useless for failing to do the impossible.

[Elemental_Elf]

V has 2 options:

1. Spam disintegrate until Xykon is dead
2. Cast Expeditious Retreat and/or a teleport spell and get the heck out of dodge.

[holywhippet]

Crushing hand - have it grapple Xykon which limits his spells to anything without a somatic component, unless he has the still spell feat.

Imprisonment might be an option if he has it.

Otherwise I'd just be going on pure slugging power - maximised damage spells like greater shout. I'm not sure if the extra effects (stunning, deafness) will work on a lich. By RAW I think they should.

[JeptCloak]

From what I understand, alot of ways, but plot demands V will act like an idiot and forget them...

For example:
* Shapechange (takes no action), squish Xykon like a bug (he's already down to half or 1/3rd health).
* Disintegrate, Quickened Disintegrate (of course, Ganeron has been toned down, so this isn't an option anymore).
* Maze if available.
* Teleport, followed by getting healed, having a cleric remove the negative levels, and teleporting back in with more buffs. Xykon won't have maximised drain again, V disintegrates him to death post-haste.
* Gate, if still available, especially after a retreat and the negative levels being removed. Can come into town bearing Elder titans and so on, destroying the town and squishing Xykon to a bug.

Will any of this happen? Of course not.

[Cúchulainn]

Sunburst the MitD.

...okay that's not really an option to beat Xykon but it's what I want to happen.

[afroakuma]

From what I understand, alot of ways, but plot demands V will act like an idiot and forget them...

For example:
* Shapechange (takes no action), squish Xykon like a bug (he's already down to half or 1/3rd health).

We don't know what those seals did. It's very likely that one of their effects was to strip currently active buffs. If not, V still has to land the hit before Xykon employs ghostform.


* Disintegrate, Quickened Disintegrate (of course, Ganeron has been toned down, so this isn't an option anymore).

I'll wager Xykon has a specific protection against disintegrate, not to mention his high Charisma will give him the saves to avoid it.


* Maze if available.

Best choice, and probably not available, as it's not the sort of thing any of the three would have. Haerta wouldn't have had it, either.


* Teleport, followed by getting healed, having a cleric remove the negative levels, and teleporting back in with more buffs. Xykon won't have maximised drain again, V disintegrates him to death post-haste.

If Xykon's using a rod of maximize (fairly likely) then he has two more to crack off. V doesn't want to spend more time owing hir soul to the fiends, and few clerics would willingly aid hir in evil state. Not to mention, V can't come back because of no more Epic Teleport.


* Gate, if still available, especially after a retreat and the negative levels being removed. Can come into town bearing Elder titans and so on, destroying the town and squishing Xykon to a bug.

Not likely to accrue a massive enough force. Redcloak can certainly get rid of one or two powerful outsiders with banishment.

[holywhippet]

* Shapechange (takes no action), squish Xykon like a bug (he's already down to half or 1/3rd health).

Hmm, you could be right - let me do some math.

V's only effective spell against Xykon was empowered sunburst. Normally that does 6d6 damage plus 1d6 per caster level. Empowering it doubles the variable component - so it does 6d9 damage plus 1d9 per caster level.

What caster level is V I'm going to assume he/she hits the maximum of 25 due to the soul splices.

So that means damage dealt was from 6 + 25 = 31 to 54 + 225 = 279. Average damage would be 27 + 112.5 = 139.5.

What level is Xkyon? Unknown but he's epic level. I'm going to assume he's level 25. A lich gets their hit die changed to d12s - including existing levels. So Xykon's HP are anywhere between 25 and 300 with an average of 150. As an undead he gets no consitution bonus.

If you go purely on averages (and my caster level guesses are accurate) then Xykon is very close to losing another body.

[with an e]

I'll wager Xykon has a specific protection against disintegrate, not to mention his high Charisma will give him the saves to avoid it.
Undead gets to use charisma for concentration checks, not in place of constitution based checks in general.

[JeptCloak]

why the heck would they be unlikely to have Maze? It's an 8th lvl conjuration spell... Ganeron is a specialist epic conjurer, one of the greatest dark magic users to ever live... I mean, aside from plain old greater teleport just what the hell is he supposed to have prepared from the conjuration list? Just ignore Jephton for a minute, with the many spells he should have had available (and I'm pretty sure energy drain doesn't take all your higher level spells btw, someone explained it earlier). Ganeron should have at least 5-6 lvl 7,8 and 9 spells available... what are the ones he's used? Shapechange once... okay... maybe Sunburst (does Jephton have any spells at all?), 2 time stops... ok, and not much else... the guy should have some relatively high level spells available, both before and after the energy drain assumedly... why is it so inconceivable he has gate?

I'm pretty sure you need to be holding a rod, and we don't see one. So let's scrub that. It isn't likely, it's plainly not the case.

As for Gate, Ganeron will have his levels back if they run and get a cleric like Durkon. Do I misunderstand how Gate works? Redcloak won't be able to do anything to something which Ganeron can summon except run in fear.

[afroakuma]

Undead gets to use charisma for concentration checks, not in place of constitution based checks in general.

:smallsigh: Right. I hate the number of times people misquote this rule to me. I never have it come up in games, you see.

Which leaves specific protection, which is to be expected considering he likes to plan for that sort of thing. And he's had time and to spare to do it.


why the heck would they be unlikely to have Maze? It's an 8th lvl conjuration spell...

Well, Jephton would be unlikely to have it because he's a chaotic wacko with limited spell selection. A spell that involves forethought, planning, a decent estimation of one's opponent and removing said opponent from kill range would probably not be a priority for his limited picks.


Ganeron is a specialist epic conjurer, one of the greatest dark magic users to ever live... I mean, aside from plain old greater teleport just what the hell is he supposed to have prepared from the conjuration list?

He's also a conqueror, and maze is a one-victim spell. Greater planar binding would get him powerful minions to prosecute his battles, summon monster VIII would get him a cadre of lesser minions, trap the soul would remove potential recurring heroes from potential resurrection and incendiary cloud deals fire damage persistently across a wide area, and thus is very useful on the field of battle.

I would expect he also prepared non-conjuration spells in some of those slots.


I'm pretty sure you need to be holding a rod, and we don't see one. So let's scrub that. It isn't likely, it's plainly not the case.

So he has something else giving him the same benefit. He enchanted the crown, or he's wearing a special robe, or belt, or what have you. Alternately, he has Sudden Maximize.


As for Gate, Ganeron will have his levels back if they run and get a cleric like Durkon. Do I misunderstand how Gate works? Redcloak won't be able to do anything to something which Ganeron can summon except run in fear.

Apparently you do; banishment lets the caster bounce any extraplanar creature, regardless of how it came in. It only cares about the creature's Will save, not the caster level of the gate spell that brought it in.

[Raenir Salazar]

can't V chain gates? 1 gate to somewhere in the lower planes then another gate next to it to where Durkon is and just go back and forth?

[afroakuma]

No; cloister has an exception only for Summoning. Gate is a Calling effect.

[Raenir Salazar]

also I'm of the opinion chain lightning was a good idea in the sense it destroyed the traps, could it also destroy any untrigger ones?

[JeptCloak]

He didn't say Sudden Maximise, so it's assumed until otherwise shown that it's a normal maximise. Others have made this point, I personally don't much care.

Sure, if Ganeron and V act like morons, they'll summon something Redcloak can banish. How likely is that given the variability of Gate? Or has V forgotten Redcloak is a cleric too... hey, maybe we can just get the rest of the fight off panel... Xykon wins, of course, how could anyone stand up to his badassery?

By "limited spell selection" you mean "can use high lvl spells 7-8+ times per day? What are the spells Jephton is supposed to have used up that didn't belong to Ganeron or Haerta? Either way, these guys should have plenty left...

[afroakuma]

I had assumed that they had already discharged and the lightning was just tearing through regular wall. It was a good expenditure to test for further traps before spending a more important spell, which is what I had assumed was the purpose.


He didn't say Sudden Maximise, so it's assumed until otherwise shown that it's a normal maximise. Others have made this point, I personally don't much care.

He doesn't need to. It does the same thing, only three times per day. But then, you're the one who says he doesn't know the rules.


Sure, if Ganeron and V act like morons, they'll summon something Redcloak can banish. How likely is that given the variability of Gate?

Perfectly likely, given the variability of banishment. Nothing that can be gated in can't be banished.

More importantly, cloister is supposed to follow whoever leaves the area, so it's possible V won't be able to use gate in any event. It hasn't been clarified beyond barring scrying and targeted summoning effects, though.


Or has V forgotten Redcloak is a cleric too... hey, maybe we can just get the rest of the fight off panel... Xykon wins, of course, how could anyone stand up to his badassery?

Could you please either get off the whole "everybody who is not me is wrong" thing or just stop entirely? It's starting to just be petulant, now.


By "limited spell selection" you mean "can use high lvl spells 7-8+ times per day? What are the spells Jephton is supposed to have used up that didn't belong to Ganeron or Haerta? Either way, these guys should have plenty left...

Sorcerers can only choose a limited list of spells, but can cast those same few spells several times per day. That is what I mean.

[Alteran]

V doesn't want to spend more time owing hir soul to the fiends, and few clerics would willingly aid hir in evil state. Not to mention, V can't come back because of no more Epic Teleport.


We know V can cast suggestion, so he should be able to get a cleric to restore his drained levels. If he didn't prepare it, I imagine at least one of the other two casters would have it. They should have at least one charm/dominate person/monster type spell among the three.

However, unless restoring the levels restores the spell slots lost, V wouldn't be able to teleport back in (as you said). Even if he got the spells back, he may not be able to. We've already seen Ganonron cast 2 epic teleports. If he does get back in, I imagine he'd blast away with Jepthon's epic spells right away. He wouldn't want to risk Xykon getting in even one more attack.

[Callos_DeTerran]

why the heck would they be unlikely to have Maze? It's an 8th lvl conjuration spell... Ganeron is a specialist epic conjurer, one of the greatest dark magic users to ever live... I mean, aside from plain old greater teleport just what the hell is he supposed to have prepared from the conjuration list?

You assume Ganeron still HAS Maze at this point and it would actually be highly counter-productive considering that Xykon could very well fail the Intelligence check for the full 10 minutes, maybe even purposefully and that indebts V even moreso to the Fiends. Something the elf has proven extremely unwilling to do, if that option is even open anymore. Also, Ganeron was KNOWN as epic conjurer, I do not believe there was mention of him being a specialist conjurer. That fame could easily come from epic teleport.


Just ignore Jephton for a minute, with the many spells he should have had available (and I'm pretty sure energy drain doesn't take all your higher level spells btw, someone explained it earlier). Ganeron should have at least 5-6 lvl 7,8 and 9 spells available... what are the ones he's used? Shapechange once... okay... maybe Sunburst (does Jephton have any spells at all?), 2 time stops... ok, and not much else... the guy should have some relatively high level spells available, both before and after the energy drain assumedly... why is it so inconceivable he has gate?

Jephton, and Ganeron for that matter, have lost at least 8 levels and likely...lets round and say 4 more from the only two energy drains seen. A total of 12 levels for what were likely NOT above 25 casters. The first energy drain removed Jephton's epic spell slots, which means it at least brought him down to level 20 or maybe 19. The second would remove the sorcerer down to....12? 11? Weaker then V was to begin with. Ganeron is likely not far behind. So where are these 7, 8, and 9th level spells coming from?



As for Gate, Ganeron will have his levels back if they run and get a cleric like Durkon. Do I misunderstand how Gate works? Redcloak won't be able to do anything to something which Ganeron can summon except run in fear.

1) Why would Dukon agree to restore the levels for epic EVIL casters? It makes no sense.

2) How do we know if he is even capable of restoring lost levels to a Soul Splice?

3) V, or one of the Splices, has to know WHAT to call in the first place which limits the idea of calling like...Elder Titans to use your example. The most powerful creature V has seen was the Pit Fiend and the ABD. ABD is not an option but a pit fiend could be a viable choice...and could likely be thrashed by Redcloak and Xykon damn fast considering that it would be a much greater threat then V as she/he is now.

As Xykon has pointed out, V has arcane power greater then any MORTAL spellcaster, but not any IMMORTAL spellcasters. But Xykon has just spent a single 12th level spell slot. Which means he has gotten Improved Spell Capacity at least three times in addition to Epic Spellcasting. There is still at least one 10th level, 11th level, and one Epic spell yet to be seen. And against three, now so at least, much lower level spellcasters that is more then enough to cut them down. Even if Xykon does nothing but continue to use Energy Drain...which he very well might to destroy the Splices.

[with an e]

No; cloister has an exception only for Summoning. Gate is a Calling effect.
Celia isn't an expert on the distinction between the summoning and calling sub-schools.

1. Let's assume that the exception Celia mentioned for summoning (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html) refers to both summoning and calling, then she does not know the difference between the two, and we are done.

2. Let's assume that the exception Celia mentioned for summoning refers to summoning only, then she was summoned into Azure City (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0529.html). However, she is afraid of dying and not being able to be raised (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0603.html), but a summoned creature reforms after 24 hrs automatically (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#calling). Therefore, she does not know the difference between the two.

Regardless of the initial assumption, we must conclude that Celia isn't to be trusted for a distinction between summoning and calling. There is sufficient room for the possibility of using calling effects.

[shadzar]

Radiance, Detonate, Evan's Spiked Tentacles of Forced Intrusion

[Raenir Salazar]

a rod is more likely.

[Dacia Brabant]

* Gate, if still available, especially after a retreat and the negative levels being removed. Can come into town bearing Elder titans and so on, destroying the town and squishing Xykon to a bug.

This is what I was hoping V would do right from the beginning when he teleported in, some sort of variation on the old Gateraping Solars trick. It'd be funny because the rules for the Cloister specifically allow it and it's something that an Epic Conjurer would try to do, because it's really evil and I thought this was supposed to be all about V's Start of Darkness, and because, well, it'd just be funny to see some retarded CharOp infinite-chain garbage show up in this comic--only to have it all Banished or otherwise countered by Team Evil.

Ah well, even if that's silly it's still a plan, which is more than what V has going. :smalltongue:

[afroakuma]

Celia isn't an expert on the distinction between the summoning and calling sub-schools.

In which case, the circumstance suggested above is still a Creation effect (two gates for transport purposes) and would likely be explicitly forbidden by cloister as a nonconventional transportation method that a high-level, non-epic caster could use to bore into the warded area.

[Raenir Salazar]

a rod is more likely.

[afroakuma]

Yes. You said that already. :smallconfused:

[Alteran]

Double post, it seems. I've accidentally refreshed and resubmitted a post long after I made the original one, I'd expect this is a similar situation.

I'm afraid I have nothing else to contribute.

[FoE]

To be honest, I think the IFCC are going to "protect their investment" and intervene before Xykon actually kills V.

[Salt_Crow]

I happen to agree with people who said retreat is the best option for V. Smacking away at Xykon would do nothing if Redcloak can slip away (a significance of which may not be so obvious to V). It'd be the best solution to retreat (preferably with Bluebeard... I mean O-Chul because he's so nice and all) and serve hir time with the fiends and come back with the party.

But then again V, with hir "ultimate arcane power" and the newly acquired arrogance thereof, seems to be oblivious of this solution or think not so highly of it as hir primary motivation seem to be "correcting the mistakes/errors s/he had made", with hir very own power.

Here's my guess how things would turn out:
Belkar realises how precious V was to him and epic-teleports (yes he's secretly an archmage you see) into Xykon's lair and dies a heroic death while saving V. Therefore fulfilling the Oracle's vision.
NO

[shadzar]

To be honest, I think the IFCC are going to "protect their investment" and intervene before Xykon actually kills V.

I don't think they could interfere at all. Seeing as that may break and nullify the contract should they want to remove the splcies or collect early, since they offered the splices for as long as V could hold them.

Also they may not even know what is going on since you cannot scry into the cloister. Just ask V when trying to find Haley even after she had left Azure City and was still under the effects of the cloister.

Even dead V would have a "soul", but the question is what does happen to an elf in the stickverse when they die? It would set a precedent for the stickverse should V have to offer up a soul after death wherein normally elves just fade away under the Tolkien influenced versions.

[JeptCloak]

I happen to agree with people who said retreat is the best option for V. Smacking away at Xykon would do nothing if Redcloak can slip away (a significance of which may not be so obvious to V). It'd be the best solution to retreat (preferably with Bluebeard... I mean O-Chul because he's so nice and all) and serve hir time with the fiends and come back with the party.

But then again V, with hir "ultimate arcane power" and the newly acquired arrogance thereof, seems to be oblivious of this solution or think not so highly of it as hir primary motivation seem to be "correcting the mistakes/errors s/he had made", with hir very own power.

Here's my guess how things would turn out:
Belkar realises how precious V was to him and epic-teleports (yes he's secretly an archmage you see) into Xykon's lair and dies a heroic death while saving V. Therefore fulfilling the Oracle's vision.
NO

I would find that to be entirely in keeping with the quality of the writing displayed in the last strip... in fact, why not just do the rest of the fight off panel. Why bother explaining to the readers. Xykon is badass. End of story. Let's just kill off the order of the stick and rename the comic "Xykon and Team Evil: Who will we kill this week?". The comic can conclude with Xykon killing all the gods in the upper pantheons, and becoming a Demi-Lich.

[Lamech]

Hmm, you could be right - let me do some math.

V's only effective spell against Xykon was empowered sunburst. Normally that does 6d6 damage plus 1d6 per caster level. Empowering it doubles the variable component - so it does 6d9 damage plus 1d9 per caster level.

What caster level is V I'm going to assume he/she hits the maximum of 25 due to the soul splices.

So that means damage dealt was from 6 + 25 = 31 to 54 + 225 = 279. Average damage would be 27 + 112.5 = 139.5.

What level is Xkyon? Unknown but he's epic level. I'm going to assume he's level 25. A lich gets their hit die changed to d12s - including existing levels. So Xykon's HP are anywhere between 25 and 300 with an average of 150. As an undead he gets no consitution bonus.

If you go purely on averages (and my caster level guesses are accurate) then Xykon is very close to losing another body.
Umm... if he had access to a lv 3+ cleric during his lichification proccess we are looking at another +2 per HD because of desecrate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/desecrate.htm). (Redcloak?) And another two if Xykon had corspe crafter. And possibly another one per HD if he has improved toughness. So... Xykon could have 275 hps. And he could have made his save. So maybe 200 hp left?

Or he could be at ten hp.

[Y'nokhs]

To be honest, I think the IFCC are going to "protect their investment" and intervene before Xykon actually kills V.

Maybe they will claim V's soul and replace it with the newly-recaptured newly-refreshed Haera. Then Xykon "is beaten" if not tequnically by V. And since V's body is still maintaining the Soul Splice, the fiends keep V's soul forever!

...

It could happen
...

Maybe

[shadowdemon_lord]

V is now the proud owner of soul splices of equal or lower level then himself. Considering the soul splices aren't additive and they all operate independently with different lists, he's doomed. Even should he manage to destroy Xykons body next round (possible, V certianly can do a lot of damage in a round, disintegrate, another empowered sunburst, or some other powerful attack might do the trick), RC is going to make mincemeat of him without his soul splices in good working order. My prediction though is that the MitD is going to do something before this fight resolves it's self.

[FoE]

Maybe they will claim V's soul and replace it with the newly-recaptured newly-refreshed Haera. Then Xykon "is beaten" if not tequnically by V. And since V's body is still maintaining the Soul Splice, the fiends keep V's soul forever!

I don't think getting V's soul is really the endgame. They know about the Gates and the Snarl, right? I think they're trying to get in on the action.

[shadzar]

I don't think getting V's soul is really the endgame. They know about the Gates and the Snarl, right? I think they're trying to get in on the action.

But on which side?

[The MunchKING]

I don't think they could interfere at all. Seeing as that may break and nullify the contract should they want to remove the splcies or collect early, since they offered the splices for as long as V could hold them.

Also they may not even know what is going on since you cannot scry into the cloister. Just ask V when trying to find Haley even after she had left Azure City and was still under the effects of the cloister.

Even dead V would have a "soul", but the question is what does happen to an elf in the stickverse when they die? It would set a precedent for the stickverse should V have to offer up a soul after death wherein normally elves just fade away under the Tolkien influenced versions.

I knod of think NetherHells Unlimited is right up there with EpicInside for raw scrying power...:smalltongue:

[Teron]

Even dead V would have a "soul", but the question is what does happen to an elf in the stickverse when they die? It would set a precedent for the stickverse should V have to offer up a soul after death wherein normally elves just fade away under the Tolkien influenced versions.
In 3rd edition, at least, elves' souls work like anyone else's.

[shadowkire]

I don't think they could interfere at all. Seeing as that may break and nullify the contract should they want to remove the splcies or collect early, since they offered the splices for as long as V could hold them.

Also they may not even know what is going on since you cannot scry into the cloister. Just ask V when trying to find Haley even after she had left Azure City and was still under the effects of the cloister.

Even dead V would have a "soul", but the question is what does happen to an elf in the stickverse when they die? It would set a precedent for the stickverse should V have to offer up a soul after death wherein normally elves just fade away under the Tolkien influenced versions.

They could scry in, Roy did using Heaven's scrying.... whatever(too tired to look up what it was) so it is quite possible IFCC has similar equipment.

[edit]
The MunchKING beat me to it.... I think.

[Lizard Lord]

It may not come down to that. Speculation: V might free O-Chul, hoping for help from a meatshield and survive due to relying on others. More likely, though, O-Chul gets killed and V calls him and his class useless for failing to do the impossible.

Given that V's ego is part of the reason he got in this mess in the first place, I doubt he would seek help from someone that is not an arcane spell caster. At this point I think he would prefer death than admitting that arcane magic is not the answer to everything.

[Lizard Lord]

I would find that to be entirely in keeping with the quality of the writing displayed in the last strip... in fact, why not just do the rest of the fight off panel. Why bother explaining to the readers. Xykon is badass. End of story. Let's just kill off the order of the stick and rename the comic "Xykon and Team Evil: Who will we kill this week?". The comic can conclude with Xykon killing all the gods in the upper pantheons, and becoming a Demi-Lich.

Why are you still posting on these forums?

You don't like the comic? Fine stop reading it and stop posting on the forums that discuss it. Meanwhile, the rest of us that still enjoy OotS shall continue to do so.

[EyethatBinds]

I would find that to be entirely in keeping with the quality of the writing displayed in the last strip... in fact, why not just do the rest of the fight off panel. Why bother explaining to the readers. Xykon is badass. End of story. Let's just kill off the order of the stick and rename the comic "Xykon and Team Evil: Who will we kill this week?". The comic can conclude with Xykon killing all the gods in the upper pantheons, and becoming a Demi-Lich.

Sounds like a good plan to me.

However, I would like to make mention of one small point on the Sunburst spell (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Sunburst). V managed to do on average 111 damage [or 60 if Xykon made is save] to Xykon in a single spell, I personally would've gone with a maximized one doling out 300 points of damage in a single attack but V may not have any spell slots that high, particularly now.

Since V is an evocation specialist the DC for the spell has got to be pretty high as is. I think if he persists in sunbursting our favorite skeletal caster he stands a chance... probably.

[Dagren]

But on which side?Their own, of course.

[kalkyrie]

One option is for V to teleport out, dropping a piece of paper on the way.
Curiousity may kill the lich, as the message reads 'I prepared 24 Explosive Runes this morning!".

(But for a non-silly solution, teleport out (with Bluebeard?), get healed and fixed, teleport in again with help.)

[2xMachina]

Evan's Spiky Tentacles of Intrusion.

:smalltongue:

Would squick out Xykon (not biophiliac), and could grapple him.

Maybe even chain it Xykon, Red Cloak and Jerric for more fun.

[Snake-Aes]

I would find that to be entirely in keeping with the quality of the writing displayed in the last strip... in fact, why not just do the rest of the fight off panel. Why bother explaining to the readers. Xykon is badass. End of story. Let's just kill off the order of the stick and rename the comic "Xykon and Team Evil: Who will we kill this week?". The comic can conclude with Xykon killing all the gods in the upper pantheons, and becoming a Demi-Lich.

You sound bitter, sir. I wouldn't doubt if X was level 23 or 26 the whole time so far(or probably 22/25 before the tower clearing. Conquering a city in war, easy battles or not, should still be rewarding some exp too), and you are talking about a Big Bad Evil Guy here, and Redcloak happens to be a good Evil Mastermind. The trap was probably causing a dc 25+ check: easy for an epic caster, hard for V. That time stop was *indeed* the difference between V having cast or not, say, 3 empowered delayed blast fireballs.90d6 damage in the surprise round alone. Whatever they had that subdued most of the quicklightining's damage just wouldn't beat that much and you'd be seeing a good 280 damage dealt to each of them there. Drained or not, V would be able to shoot another blast and off Xykon.


Seriously, how unlikely is for an evil mastermind's fortress to be unguarded? It's like Xykon said: The trap made V waste her surprise round. That alone changed the tide of the battle.

i'm surprised there hasn't been any other nasty trap triggering here actually.

[Aharon]

But it was a trap that didn't make sense, as Xykon remarked himself. Nonepic beings can't teleport in anyway, and epic beings (except one - Suvie) make the concentration check.

If it wouldn't have been so specifically geared against that type of thing happening, I would have been more content with the strip. I would have preferred some of the Glyph spells by Redcloak.
They
a) cost less than regular traps
b) don't take a whole afternoon to install
c) can be put in more than one room.
d) allow the addition of other arcane casters, for whatever reason (just tell them the Password, if desired).

Another point that might have lessened my dissatisfaction would have been if the very good preparation of team evil had been foreshadowed more extensively (Around http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0512.html (comic 512) we see they are very well organised, but it didn't make me think of the sort of preparation RC actually showed.). I would even have been content if the runes had been visible in the previous comic in the background of MiTDs and O'Chuls discussion. V's defeat wouldn't have come so out of the blue for me.

[Snake-Aes]

But it was a trap that didn't make sense, as Xykon remarked himself. Nonepic beings can't teleport in anyway, and epic beings (except one - Suvie) make the concentration check.

If it wouldn't have been so specifically geared against that type of thing happening, I would have been more content with the strip. I would have preferred some of the Glyph spells by Redcloak.
They
a) cost less than regular traps
b) don't take a whole afternoon to install
c) can be put in more than one room.
d) allow the addition of other arcane casters, for whatever reason (just tell them the Password, if desired).

Another point that might have lessened my dissatisfaction would have been if the very good preparation of team evil had been foreshadowed more extensively (Around http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0512.html (comic 512) we see they are very well organised, but it didn't make me think of the sort of preparation RC actually showed.). I would even have been content if the runes had been visible in the previous comic in the background of MiTDs and O'Chuls discussion. V's defeat wouldn't have come so out of the blue for me.The target probably wasn't an epic mojo person, but the possible sneaking wizard. There is a resistance group to worry about after all.

[Zevox]

The target probably wasn't an epic mojo person, but the possible sneaking wizard. There is a resistance group to worry about after all.
Not to mention its hardly impossible for a non-epic Wizard to get to Xykon's tower anyway. The most powerful threat in the city besides Xykon, Redcloak, and MitD is who? Tsukiko? A level 12-13-ish Mystic Theurge? Any level 10 or so adventuring party could fight their way past her and her undead pets if they got a chance to rest once or twice in the middle of it (and hey, there's that resistance movement, more than willing to help out someone looking to help liberate their city - convenient, eh?). And Redcloak and Xykon already had that happen to them once back at the Dungeon of Dorukon, at the very least, in spite of having an entire evil adventuring party of their own to counter their intruders with, among other things.

Epic enemies should be the least of their worries, really. Its not like they're at all common. And yeah, non-epic ones almost surely can't kill Xykon unless they're damn close to epic, and would have a hell of a time even with Redcloak, but they can still do some serious damage in the process.

Zevox

[Zanaril]

To be honest, I think the IFCC are going to "protect their investment" and intervene before Xykon actually kills V.

As for the IFC swooping in and saving V in the nick of time, I think it's unlikely. But equally, if Xykon tried to soul bind V as some people suggested, I don't see the Fiends sitting back and letting V get out of paying her time.

[Aharon]

@Zevox & Snake-Aes
D'uh, you might be right. Totally focused on V, didn't consider that Redcloak might actually consider the Resistance as a threat.

Thanks for giving a rational explanation for the trap, now I can enjoy Xykon's and RC's badassery a bit.

(Though I would REALLY have liked to see another epic spell :smallbiggrin:)

[Estrosiath]

Sad that someone who supposedly has two epic level casters did not take ONE round to cast a limited wish to grant himself death ward before teleporting away. Xykon would have been hyzowned.

[Aharon]

Death Ward is divine.

Remember http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html (the deal)? What you propose isn't allowed - perhaps for this specific reason.

[Killer Angel]

I would find that to be entirely in keeping with the quality of the writing displayed in the last strip... in fact, why not just do the rest of the fight off panel. Why bother explaining to the readers. Xykon is badass. End of story. Let's just kill off the order of the stick and rename the comic "Xykon and Team Evil: Who will we kill this week?". The comic can conclude with Xykon killing all the gods in the upper pantheons, and becoming a Demi-Lich.


Have you never played anyone of the adventure modules of D&D?
When you begin, the BBEG (and his organization) are far superiors to your strenght... then you level up and begin to fight effectively.
Xykon is far superior to OotS; V. with the soul splice had a chance, but he wasted it with no preparation, total inexperience with very high level spells and HUGE self confidency. Perfectly in character.

[Snake-Aes]

Have you never played anyone of the adventure modules of D&D?
When you begin, the BBEG (and his organization) are far superiors to your strenght... then you level up and begin to fight effectively.
Xykon is far superior to OotS; V. with the soul splice had a chance, but he wasted it with no preparation, total inexperience with very high level spells and HUGE self confidency. Perfectly in character.

Even Xykon said that to Roy.

[Omegonthesane]

Have you never played anyone of the adventure modules of D&D?
When you begin, the BBEG (and his organization) are far superiors to your strenght... then you level up and begin to fight effectively.
Xykon is far superior to OotS; V. with the soul splice had a chance, but he wasted it with no preparation, total inexperience with very high level spells and HUGE self confidency. Perfectly in character.

I cannot emphasise enough, given the title of the thread, that V has not lost yet. Sure he missed Dimensional Anchor, but you're going to miss once or twice; he was specifically rejuvenated by the splice, so he isn't taking sleep-deprivation penalties anymore.
Even if caster levels don't stack - and we really have no evidence either way - V's own Disintegrate could well be enough to finish Xykon's body off. It would only drive home the "even ultimate arcane power can't solve everything" message if Redcloak defeated V. Not Xykon, because he's an arcane spellcaster; V would rationalise that he needed even more power, rather than learn his lesson.

[SoC175]

Undead gets to use charisma for concentration checks, not in place of constitution based checks in general.
IIRC there actually is a feat that completly substitudes Con with Char for undead (saves, skills and even hp gained)

[Dagren]

IIRC there actually is a feat that completly substitudes Con with Char for undead (saves, skills and even hp gained)Not in the SRD, there isn't. Even if you are remembering correctly, it isn't core, and the comic generally sticks to core. (not exclusively, but mostly)

[Callos_DeTerran]

I cannot emphasise enough, given the title of the thread, that V has not lost yet. Sure he missed Dimensional Anchor, but you're going to miss once or twice; he was specifically rejuvenated by the splice, so he isn't taking sleep-deprivation penalties anymore.


You know, there is a REASON that blaster wizards, when seen try to avoid any kind of ranged attack roll unless it just so happens to be touch. They have a sucky BAB. Consider the fact that V still apparently uses his/her own saves, skills, and whatnot which includes a BAB that MIGHT be...what? 7? A generous estimate of V's dex (15 lets say) brings the ranged attack bonus to...9. A ring of protection +5 alone means that V will miss a little less then half the time, not counting a good Dex score into that.

Remember, Xykon has been spending his non-torturing time crafting new magical items that we don't know what or how many. He could have very well made gloves of dexterity +6 (Even assuming a 10 Dex, which would be a bad bad thing) to make it so that V is now missing over HALF the time. This is NOT counting other bonuses to touch AC like...ohh....the one ioun stone that provides an insight bonus to AC. Or a Manual of Quickness of Action +5 (Another +5 to Dex)

Those are all reasonable choices for a sorcerer to craft in his spare time that couldn't be shown on the character except with how easily Xykon seemed to dodge the likely poorly aimed Dimensional Anchor. A bad roll would have only compounded that problem, but Xykon didn't even seem strained from dodging that. Heck, the only thing I've seen V actually HIT were bigger creatures which traditionally don't have good Dex scores and a size penalty to touch AC.

[slb]

Actually V still has the benefits of his third jack in the hole: he's still under the effect of the Shapechange cast with Haerta.

Therefore X may be wrestling with a 25HD Dragon next round and finish like the bone golem :smallbiggrin:

[Snake-Aes]

Actually V still has the benefits of his third jack in the hole: he's still under the effect of the Shapechange cast with Haerta.

Therefore X may be wrestling with a 25HD Dragon next round and finish like the bone golem :smallbiggrin:

Wouldn't it be a 50hd dragon?

[The MunchKING]

Wouldn't it be a 50hd dragon?

According to the book, yes.

According to the Online material, no. They nerfed it down to 1-1 and cap at 25.

[Undead Prince]

expeditious retreat.

seriously, that is the best option right now.

I do hope you're speaking metaphorically, and not referring to the spell, which would have been a total waste of a Standard Action.



If Xykon's using a rod of maximize (fairly likely)

Not likely at all, unless the Rod is under Invisibility.


Seeing as my preferred way of dealing with the sitch has already been mentioned in one of the posts above, here's another one:

Ganonron: AAAAAAAH!!!

Jephthon: NOOOOOOO!!

:vaarsuvius:: (o) (o)

:xykon:: HA!

Ganonron: Nah, we're just screwing with you.
Jephthon: Yeah, we've still got about 30 levels each. So let's show this skeletal punk how we did things... in the Ancient Empire!

:vaarsuvius: (Ganonron): SPHERE OF ULTIMATE DESTRUCTION!

:xykon:: What, no save and no attack roll?! You cheating bastard! ...croak...

:vaarsuvius: (Jepthon): QUICKENED WRACK!

:redcloak: The Pain!!! [collapses in agony]

:vaarsuvius:: oVo

Jirix: [gulp] I surrender?

:vaarsuvius: Dominate Person!.. Now which one of you goblinoids will impart upon me the secret of the lich's phylactery?

Jirix: Him, Your Lordship!

:redcloak: It's... my amulet... now stop... the pain...

:vaarsuvius: I will oblige, you miserable wretch. Meteor Swarm.

[vrellum]

I think the assumption that Jephthon is less than 20th level is very shakey. Negative levels make you lose spells as if you had already cast them.

I have to admit that I am not familiar with epic levels, but if Jephthon was 50th level with 8 epic spell slots and got hit for 8 negative levels he would lose access to all of his epic spells. If he lost 9 levels he would be a 41st level caster and would have lost his epic spells, plus one 9th level slot, etc.

[afroakuma]

Not likely at all, unless the Rod is under Invisibility.

Or is in the form of some other item, which is entirely possible. As I've already said, Sudden Maximize is more likely.

And both are more likely than V pulling two non-Core spells to destroy Xykon and team.

[Raenir Salazar]

a rod is more likely.

[Undead Prince]

Or is in the form of some other item, which is entirely possible.

No, unless it's been Polymorphed.


As I've already said, Sudden Maximize is more likely.

And both are more likely than V pulling two non-Core spells to destroy Xykon and team.

1. Sudden Maximise is non-Core, non-SRD, it's the Miniatures Handbook.

2. If a tramp like Tsukiko has access to Spell Compendium, I would assume epic mages from ages long past would have had at least a glimpse beyond PHB.

3. You want Core? Wish to remove all negative levels, followed by a swift epic spell or a Quickened Forcecage on Xykon, and Shapechange into an Iron Golem. End turn.

4. Wherever did I say anything was likely? Likely V will blow, like he always blows.

[afroakuma]

:smallannoyed: Yes, we got that the first time. Would you care to repeat it once or twice more just to get it out of the way?


No, unless it's been Polymorphed.

Or designed as another item, which casters can do if they're willing to pony up the extra cash.


1. Sudden Maximise is non-Core, non-SRD, it's the Miniatures Handbook.

Craft Disturbing Mental Image is extremely non-Core. Tsukiko's attack spells were non-Core.


2. If a tramp like Tsukiko has access to Spell Compendium, I would assume epic mages from ages long past would have had at least a glimpse beyond PHB.

Sure, but so does Xykon, and he'll have gimmicks to get away from things like that. Ghostform, for example.


3. You want Core? Wish to remove all negative levels

Wish doesn't state that it can remove negative levels; only injuries and afflictions, as heal.


Quickened Forcecage on Xykon, and Shapechange into an Iron Golem. End turn.

Then Xykon teleports out.


4. Wherever did I say anything was likely? Likely V will blow, like he always blows.

Do you have anything to contribute beyond being negative? We get that you disliked the turn of events.

[JeptCloak]

Negative remark, negative remark, negative remark. I'm not the only one annoyed, though I seem to be the most annoyed, and since unlike some forums the author actually reads our views, I want to put it out there so it isn't all "Xykon is so badass" which seems to be the prevailing sentiment. I'm pleased that at least half a dozen people don't seem to like it at all though.

[AkodoKoji]

Disintegrate. Gust of Wind.

[Undead Prince]

:smallannoyed: Yes, we got that the first time.

Be more specific. You're not replying to any particular quote, and I'm not a psion.


Or designed as another item, which casters can do if they're willing to pony up the extra cash.

It's a rod. It's crafted as a rod, with the Craft Rod feat.

Core does not provide for making custom items which give use of feats. Feats are absent from the "Estimating Magic Item Gold Piece Values" table. Feat items are v. rare, expensive, and hard-coded into the DMG. Any alteration is heavy homebrewery.

And if it were possible to duplicate any magic item using any crafting feat, there would be no point in taking different crafting feats.


Craft Disturbing Mental Image is extremely non-Core. Tsukiko's attack spells were non-Core.

And suddenly, you're shooting yourself in the foot.

Yes, OoTS has non-Core spells.

Yes, even rabble like Tsukiko know them, and may learn more.

And, these spells are identical twins to their siblings from Spell Compendium & other sourcebooks. Cf. Tsukiko's "Electric Orb" with "Orb of Electricity" (c) WoTC.

So, what were you saying about spliced souls knowing nothing beyond Core?


Sure, but so does Xykon, and he'll have gimmicks to get away from things like that. Ghostform, for example.

1. Ghostform is not Core.

2. Xykon does not have Ghostform active.

3. Ghostform gives incorporeality. Sphere of Ultimate Destruction does not make an exclusion for incorporeal creatures (it affects any creature). Incorporeality would have given a 50% miss chance, but the Sphere strikes automatically, so probably not even that (DM's call, though). And before you say that the spell summary says it affects "matter" - well, it affects force effects as well, "like Disintegrate".


Wish doesn't state that it can remove negative levels; only injuries and afflictions, as heal.

Energy Drain is an affliction. See:


FAQ:

Does a warlock lose one of his highest level invocations
while suffering the effects of a negative level?
No. Though a spellcaster effectively loses one spell slot while afflicted by a negative level, a warlock doesn’t have spell slots to lose. The warlock’s effective level is still reduced by 1 for the purpose of calculating caster level and the like.

Seed: Heal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/seeds/heal.htm)

To dispel all negative levels afflicting the target...

Armor of the Abyssal Horde (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/magicItems/armor.htm)

This+6 full plate armor’s clawed gauntlets are effectively +4 keen weapons (1d10/19-20) that afflict the target as if she had been struck by an energy drain spell (Fortitude negates DC 23). The armor bestows two negative levels on any nonevil creature wearing it.


etc...


Heal does not say it cures of all afflictions. It provides a list of afflictions it cures, and then specifically excludes negative levels and permanent drains.


Then Xykon teleports out.

Wasting a Standard Action. He doesn't have Quicken, or we would have already seen him use it (e.g. as Quickened Enervations). Or does he have Sudden Quicken in addition to the Sudden Maximise? No, wait, that would require Quicken Spell, Sudden Empower, Sudden Extend, Sudden Maximize, Sudden Silent, Sudden Still... an entire plethora of metamagics Xykon was never before seen using.


Do you have anything to contribute beyond being negative? We get that you disliked the turn of events.

Wasn't the previous post, to which you are so vigorously, and negatively, replying, exactly a contribution to this thread's list of possible ways to defeat Xykon?

Also, don't speak for anyone but yourself. Bad form.

[afroakuma]

Be more specific. You're not replying to any particular quote, and I'm not a psion.

Wasn't directed at you.


It's a rod. It's crafted as a rod, with the Craft Rod feat.

Core has rules for putting effects into different slots, specifically as regards pricing.


Core does not provide for making custom items which give use of feats. Feats are absent from the "Estimating Magic Item Gold Piece Values" table. Feat items are v. rare, expensive, and hard-coded into the DMG. Any alteration is heavy homebrewery.

Xykon does homebrew. We've been shown that with Xykon's moderately escapeable forcecage.


And if it were possible to duplicate any magic item using any crafting feat, there would be no point in taking different crafting feats.

Price, XP cost, ease of doing so, value of different slots...


And suddenly, you're shooting yourself in the foot.

And you didn't? Your previous list went from "hey, that's not Core" to "Tsukiko has non-Core, so should they." I'm not here to win an argument, I'm here to try and keep things friendly.


Yes, OoTS has non-Core spells.

I've never debated that this was the case.


So, what were you saying about spliced souls knowing nothing beyond Core?

You are misquoting me. I said that Xykon having Sudden Maximize or some item granting him an ability similar to that of a greater rod of metamagic, maximize was more likely than V having access to the two non-Core spells that you suggested.


1. Ghostform is not Core.

I never said it was. We know Xykon has it.


2. Xykon does not have Ghostform active.

Easily rectified.


3. Ghostform gives incorporeality. Sphere of Ultimate Destruction does not make an exclusion for incorporeal creatures (it affects any creature).

Any creature it can touch. The 50% miss chance would apply since it is a spell. Ghostform is not a force effect. And it pretty clearly affects matter with the exception of force effects, which it specifies that it can act against as a disintegrate spell.


Energy Drain is an affliction. See:

That's like me saying that bestow curse is a plague because I'm plagued by my curse. The IFCC has already banned simulating divine magic with wish; I'd read that as "You get wish verbatim less the divine spell replication. Any ambiguity that a DM might let slide, we won't."


Heal does not say it cures of all afflictions. It provides a list of afflictions it cures, and then specifically excludes negative levels and permanent drains.


• Duplicate any other spell of 6th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.

Wish almost certainly cannot replicate as an arcane effect the powers of a divine spell above the level limitation en masse.


Wasting a Standard Action.

Running away from a forcecage and an angry Epic caster is hardly a waste of a standard action. :smalltongue:


Wasn't the previous post, to which you are so vigorously, and negatively, replying, exactly a contribution to this thread's list of possible ways to defeat Xykon?

This thread is hardly a list. It is a discussion. Which we were engaging in, in an interesting fashion, when you went for:


Likely V will blow, like he always blows.

Which is negative. I do not mean negative in the sense of gainsaying or refutation, I mean negative in the spirit of the statement. "Bad vibes," if you will.


Also, don't speak for anyone but yourself. Bad form.


We get that you disliked the turn of events.

Do you disagree that a majority of people who read any of your posts throughout the various threads discussing the events in this strip would say that you were not in favor?

[Mawhrin Skel]

You know, there is a REASON that blaster wizards, when seen try to avoid any kind of ranged attack roll unless it just so happens to be touch. They have a sucky BAB.

Quickened True Strike?


Shapechange into an Iron Golem

Starmetal golem, surely? It'd have to be a little one to get around the 25HD limit though. And (minor problem) golems can't speak, so unless super V has silent spell...

[The MunchKING]

3. You want Core? Wish to remove all negative levels,

WOuldn't that be duplication of a Divine spell? (Specifically Restoration)

[afroakuma]

WOuldn't that be duplication of a Divine spell? (Specifically Restoration)

Not necessarily. Wish has the power to remove a single kind of affliction from a group of people simultaneously. The fiends might call it too close to divine magic and have it unplugged, but it's more likely that it's intended as an arcane mass heal with limitations.