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Tarmikos
2009-05-12, 07:57 PM
I was just randomly thinking on character builds, and while thinking decided that with all the knowledgable people on this forum, it could be interesting to pose the question here. I was wondering, using only the PHB and DM's guide, what kind of optimized or interesting characters could be created? Just curious on everyone's opinions on that topic.

Since there's obviously different roles, it would probly be better to define what role a character would fill, so there's not a discussion of magic versus might, or combat versus non combat usefulness, for which is a better optimized character. Feel free to submit as many different builds as you like, though a bit of explanation of why each one is the way it is would be nice, I think.

If this seems like an odd topic, or different, just wanted to try my hand at getting a discussion started, one where someone doesn't need much beyond the basics to follow and contribute. Hope that's ok on here. :smalleek:

Gorbash
2009-05-12, 08:05 PM
Wizard/Loremaster/Archmage. Ta-da!

Loremaster is a nice prestige class even beyond core, Archmage is a-must class also, so why not throw them all into the blender?

Chronos
2009-05-12, 08:07 PM
Hm, I was just looking at this for another thread a week or two ago: Saph's Horizon Tripper (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80415), probably the best core-only melee build.

Swooper
2009-05-12, 08:08 PM
Druid with Natural Spell and a decent companion is one of the best, even outside of core. Cleric is still strong in core (not broken without DMM shenanigans, but still a full caster).

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-05-12, 08:30 PM
Wizard/Loremaster/Archmage. Ta-da!

Loremaster is a nice prestige class even beyond core, Archmage is a-must class also, so why not throw them all into the blender?

Uh, Loremaster doesn't provide very good benefits at all actually.:smallconfused:

Garian
2009-05-12, 08:33 PM
from 1st to maybe 4th level you can't get better at killing then the barbarian half-orc. I have a fond connection to them.

As far as playing a powerful character I would say druid or maybe wizard.
But it really depends on what role you want to take.

Eldariel
2009-05-12, 08:36 PM
Uh, Loremaster doesn't provide very good benefits at all actually.:smallconfused:

It does. You get:
-Use Magic Device
-4+Int skills
-Recovery of the feat you spent entering
-+2 to everything you want
-Free identifies and Bardic Knowledge (thanks to your immense Int, you'll beat your average Bard in this even though you have 7 fewer levels to work off)
-Extra ranks in a skill you haven't invested in yet, such as Use Magic Device
-Did I mention you get Use Magic Device?

You can also grab an extra 2nd level spell if you really want to, but that's pretty dumb. The big thing is, your familiar uses your skills so 4+Int on expanded skill list and Use Magic Device really fires it up. In case I didn't emphasize it enough, you get Use Magic Device (among other things, there's this nice magic item named "Beads of Karma" that normally only works for Divine Casters and allows you to boost your CL by 4 for spells you cast; UMD and you, the arcanist, can gain the same benefit).

Flickerdart
2009-05-12, 08:36 PM
Does this imply that MMI is not allowed, significantly curbing the Druid's power? If he can only wildshape into other common races, and take...what for a companion?...that significantly nerfs him.

Tarmikos
2009-05-12, 08:56 PM
Does this imply that MMI is not allowed, significantly curbing the Druid's power? If he can only wildshape into other common races, and take...what for a companion?...that significantly nerfs him.

With what I said, I meant for it to imply no splatbooks for this. The MMI would be acceptable to use however, for druid purposes

Harperfan7
2009-05-12, 10:31 PM
Halfling Rogue 10/Assassin 10

Dex 30 (17 +5 wish, +6 item, +2 reduce person)
Int 30 (14 +5 level, +5 wish, +6 item)

+5 Shortbow (Human Bane, Spell Storing - Inflict Serious Wounds, Speed)
+5 Wounding Arrows of Greater Slaying (Human)

1 - Point Blank Shot
3 - Rapid Shot
6 - Skill Focus (Craft Poison)
9 - Manyshot
12 - Shortbow Focus or Precise Shot
15 - Improved Critical (Shortbow) or Improved Precise Shot
18 - Ability Focus (Death Attack) if allowed, if not, one of the other archery feats

Crippling Strike (Rogue Special Ability)

at least x9 vials of Black Lotus Extract

Being tiny, super dextrous, super intelligent, magically stealthy via spells, the halfling sneaks up on human target (most likely npc for assassination,
includes half breeds), fires off 4 shots with many shot...

So on the surprise round against a human target...

+31 (at least) - 1d6+10 basic weapon damage (crit 19-20/x3), 2d6+2 bane damage, +10d6 sneak attack damage (+2 str damage), +3d8+15 inflict serious wounds, 1 con damage, DC 30 (at least) vs. Death, DC 23 vs. Death, DC 20 vs. black lotus extract (3d6 con, 3d6 con)

+31 (at least) - 1d6+10 basic weapon damage, 2d6+2 bane damage, 1 con damage, DC 23 vs. Death, DC 20 vs. black lotus extract (3d6 con, 3d6 con)

+31 (at least) - 1d6+10 basic weapon damage, 2d6+2 bane damage, 1 con damage, DC 23 vs. Death, DC 20 vs. black lotus extract (3d6 con, 3d6 con)

+31 (at least) - 1d6+10 basic weapon damage, 2d6+2 bane damage, 1 con damage, DC 23 vs. Death, DC 20 vs. black lotus extract (3d6 con, 3d6 con)

If he wins the following initiative roll...

+37 (at least) - 1d6+10 basic weapon damage (crit 19-20/x3), 2d6+2 bane damage, +10d6 sneak attack damage (+2 str damage), 1 con damage, DC 23 vs. Death, DC 20 vs. black lotus extract (3d6 con, 3d6 con)

+37 (at least) - 1d6+10 basic weapon damage (crit 19-20/x3), 2d6+2 bane damage, +10d6 sneak attack damage (+2 str damage), 1 con damage, DC 23 vs. Death, DC 20 vs. black lotus extract (3d6 con, 3d6 con)

+37 (at least) - 1d6+10 basic weapon damage (crit 19-20/x3), 2d6+2 bane damage, +10d6 sneak attack damage (+2 str damage), 1 con damage, DC 23 vs. Death, DC 20 vs. black lotus extract (3d6 con, 3d6 con)

+32 (at least) - 1d6+10 basic weapon damage (crit 19-20/x3), 2d6+2 bane damage, +10d6 sneak attack damage (+2 str damage), 1 con damage, DC 23 vs. Death, DC 20 vs. black lotus extract (3d6 con, 3d6 con)

+27 (at least) - 1d6+10 basic weapon damage (crit 19-20/x3), 2d6+2 bane damage, +10d6 sneak attack damage (+2 str damage), 1 con damage, DC 23 vs. Death, DC 20 vs. black lotus extract (3d6 con, 3d6 con)

Ok, granted this is an EXTREMELY specific and EXTREMELY expensive encounter, it is still very possible and core only.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-05-12, 10:59 PM
Harperfan7, a +5 bow with +5 arrows doesn't get +10 to attack and damage, it gets +5 because those bonuses have the same name (enhancement) and don't stack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/thebasics.htm). You also only get 3 arrows with Manyshot with a +14 BAB, and a tiny shortbow only does 1d3 base damage.


Rogue 4/ Wizard 1/ Assassin 5/ Arcane Trickster 10, putting AT spellcasting toward Wizard. This is probably one of the best party skillmonkeys you can get in core-only, and in the higher levels when 90+% of your encounters are immune to sneak attack he still has up to 6th level spells.

Cleric 7/ Thaumaturgist 5/ Cleric 8 is a superb build. At level 12 you can get a Ghaele planar cohort, which can use Charm Monster, Hold Monster, and Dispel Magic at will. This could be a frontline/melee character, a support caster/buffer/healer, or an offensive spellcaster depending on what domains you pick and spells you prepare.

Druid 20 with Natural Spell has already been mentioned, and for good reason. This character can fill every role except skillmonkey, and a party of 4 druids using summon nature's ally I to Nodwick traps is at least equal to any other core-only party.

Anything that gets full Wizard spellcasting is extremely viable in a core-only game.

Eldariel
2009-05-12, 11:07 PM
Rogue 1/Wizard 6/Loremaster is a surprisingly good Rogue-proxy in addition to having full-1 Wizard casting. Rogue 1/Wizard 5/Assassin 1/Arcane Trickster 10 is an excellent option too, being able to max more skills due to having most important stuff in class. Wizard - 2 casting hurts though.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-05-12, 11:18 PM
People often forget, of the big 5(6), 3 are core base classes. Wizard 5/Loremaster 10/Archmage 5(switch any of those levels for more Wizard) is better than almost any non-big 5 pulling from more sources.
Druid 20, for obvious reasons, is IMHO better core-only than almost anything else. No PrCs, no splatbook spells, just a giant, fire-breathing monster with a steriod-abusing bear leaving your campaign in ruins.
Cleric 20, though not able to go Zilla that often, is vital in a core-only game due to the fact that no other class can get rid of status conditions without significant investment, and Cleric provides much-needed buffs to the party.

In other words, the same classes are the best, they just require less work to be the best, since other classes get destroyed core-only.

tyckspoon
2009-05-13, 12:00 AM
People often forget, of the big 5(6), 3 are core base classes. Wizard 5/Loremaster 10/Archmage 5(switch any of those levels for more Wizard)

Wiz 7/Loremaster 8/Archmage 5; Loremaster was written before the general idea that Prestige Classes should be enterable at 6 was really formulated. Not much of a loss, anyway; there's no really compelling reason to take those last 2 levels of Loremaster aside from them being better than a couple levels of Wizard where you aren't getting a bonus feat. But then, just about any +spellcasting level meets that description.

Salt_Crow
2009-05-13, 12:36 AM
Looks like Druid's out. No MM=no WS XD

Harperfan7
2009-05-14, 03:39 PM
[QUOTE=Biffoniacus_Furiou;6096136]Harperfan7, a +5 bow with +5 arrows doesn't get +10 to attack and damage, it gets +5 because those bonuses have the same name (enhancement) and don't stack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/thebasics.htm). You also only get 3 arrows with Manyshot with a +14 BAB, and a tiny shortbow only does 1d3 base damage.
QUOTE]

Unless it changed for 3.5, yes they do (3.0 DMG pg. 183)
Manyshot goes up to 4 arrows (3.5 PHB pg. 97)
Thrown weapons or projectiles resume normal size after leaving an enlarged or reduced attacker. (3.5 PHB pgs. 227 & 269)

lsfreak
2009-05-14, 03:42 PM
The enhancement bonus from a ranged weapon does not stack with the enhancement bonus from ammunition. Only the higher of the two enhancement bonuses applies.
Straight from the SRD.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-05-14, 05:00 PM
Unless it changed for 3.5, yes they do (3.0 DMG pg. 183)
Manyshot goes up to 4 arrows (3.5 PHB pg. 97)
Thrown weapons or projectiles resume normal size after leaving an enlarged or reduced attacker. (3.5 PHB pgs. 227 & 269)

It did change in 3.5, multiple enhancement bonuses do not stack.

"For every five points of base attack bonus you have above +6, you may add one additional arrow to this attack, to a maximum of four arrows at a base attack bonus of +16." Your build only gets a +14 BAB at level 20, not enough to manyshot with four arrows.

Reduce Person spell description, beginning of the second paragraph: "All equipment worn or carried by a creature is similarly reduced by the spell.
Melee and projectile weapons deal less damage (see Table 2–3 in the Dungeon Master’s Guide)." A bow is a projectile weapon, therefore it deals less damage due to the reduction in size.

Eldariel
2009-05-14, 05:07 PM
Reduce Person spell description, beginning of the second paragraph: "All equipment worn or carried by a creature is similarly reduced by the spell.
Melee and projectile weapons deal less damage (see Table 2–3 in the Dungeon Master’s Guide)." A bow is a projectile weapon, therefore it deals less damage due to the reduction in size.

To extrapolate, this is because arrows deal damage dependent on the size of the bow used to fire them, rather than the size of the arrows themselves.

Harperfan7
2009-05-14, 07:32 PM
"Melee and projectile weapons deal less damage. Other magical properties are not affected by this spell. Any reduced item that leaves the reduced creature’s possession (including a projectile or thrown weapon) instantly returns to its normal size. This means that thrown weapons deal their normal damage (projectiles deal damage based on the size of the weapon that fired them)."

This doesn't make much sense does it?

-...projectile weapons deal less damage.
-...Any reduced item that leaves the reduced creature’s possession (including a projectile or thrown weapon) instantly returns to its normal size.

So I take from this that an arrow that leaves a reduced persons' bow returns to unreduced size, but deals reduced damage?

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-05-14, 11:08 PM
So I take from this that an arrow that leaves a reduced persons' bow returns to unreduced size, but deals reduced damage?Yes. If it was fired from a Small Longbow, so it deal damage based on a small Longbow no matter how big the arrow actually is. Conservation of energy and all that.

Harperfan7
2009-05-14, 11:35 PM
Yes. If it was fired from a Small Longbow, so it deal damage based on a small Longbow no matter how big the arrow actually is. Conservation of energy and all that.

Well, alright then. I stand corrected on all 3 points.

Killer Angel
2009-05-15, 05:55 AM
Hm, I was just looking at this for another thread a week or two ago: Saph's Horizon Tripper ("http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80415), probably the best core-only melee build.

the link don't work...
What was the Thread's title? Thanks in advance

Myrmex
2009-05-15, 06:11 AM
Clerics aren't actually that good in core. They're about on par, maybe a little below, a fighter in terms of pure combat damage. They have more utility, for sure. But in order to do anything worthwhile in combat, they have to spend several rounds buffing to catch up with the fighter's greater weapon focus, greater weapon specialization power attacks.

Swooper
2009-05-15, 06:25 AM
the link don't work...
What was the Thread's title? Thanks in advance
Eh, you just need to fix the http:// bit, the rest of the link is correct. Here it is (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80415).

Killer Angel
2009-05-15, 07:11 AM
Eh, you just need to fix the http:// bit, the rest of the link is correct. Here it is (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80415).

Thanks.
Indeed, is very interesting. It seems that, even in core, it's possible to find unexplored builds! (at least to me...:smallredface:)

Curmudgeon
2009-05-15, 07:26 AM
Human Rogue 7/Shadowdancer 1/Rogue 12

Feats are:
1) Dodge, Combat Reflexes
3) Weapon Finesse
6) Mobility
9) Spring Attack
12) Improved Initiative
15) Two-Weapon Fighting
18) Quick Draw

Rogue special abilities (at 11, 14, 17, 20): Skill Mastery, Crippling Strike, Opportunist, Slippery Mind

Essential Gear: mithral chain shirt with Shadow enhancement to improve your Hide check; Goggles of Night for darkvision; and keen rapier

The important thing is to be able to deal out the damage without getting hurt. The Shadowdancer's Supernatural HiPS is key here, as is maximizing your Hide modifier and using Skill Mastery to always "take 10". From that point on you're visually undetectable except when up against opponents with excellent Spot skills, and can thus usually do full rounds of sneak attacks even with -20 penalty to Hide. For those with high Spot you use Spring Attack instead: only 1 attack/round, but no -20 penalty to your check.

DeathQuaker
2009-05-15, 08:59 AM
I have a player in a game I am running who is playing a Halfling Fighter/Rogue/Shadowdancer. Sorry, don't know the exact levels, but combat wise, he's very hard to hit, and he uses his Shadow Jump ability to get into flanking positions very easily, then delivering lots of lovely sneak attack damage. Obviously, he's less effective fighting creatures that are immune to sneak attack, but even in those cases he's still a very mobile and hard to hit target which can confound enemies. Fighter levels give him a much needed boost to Fort saves; only poor save is Will. Reflex saves are awesome, of course, and he has improved evasion.

Non-combat wise he's focused on perception and stealth, which especially with Hide in Plain Sight adds to his difficulty getting caught, and he can catch those trying to play him at his own game. He's got some bluff and some basic thiefy skills for when the party needs someone to pick a lock. Generally a very effective character.

woodenbandman
2009-05-15, 09:18 AM
I rather like Cleric 15/Thaumaturgist 5. Planar Cohort is hot.

Why is that PrC so overlooked?

Chronos
2009-05-15, 06:30 PM
the link don't work...
What was the Thread's title? Thanks in advanceFixed link; sorry.

Gorbash
2009-05-16, 12:35 PM
It does. You get:
-Use Magic Device
-4+Int skills
-Recovery of the feat you spent entering
-+2 to everything you want
-Free identifies and Bardic Knowledge (thanks to your immense Int, you'll beat your average Bard in this even though you have 7 fewer levels to work off)
-Extra ranks in a skill you haven't invested in yet, such as Use Magic Device
-Did I mention you get Use Magic Device?

You can also grab an extra 2nd level spell if you really want to, but that's pretty dumb. The big thing is, your familiar uses your skills so 4+Int on expanded skill list and Use Magic Device really fires it up. In case I didn't emphasize it enough, you get Use Magic Device (among other things, there's this nice magic item named "Beads of Karma" that normally only works for Divine Casters and allows you to boost your CL by 4 for spells you cast; UMD and you, the arcanist, can gain the same benefit).

Never thought of this nifty trick before, I'm gonna start investing in UMD with my wizard now! Are there any items (aside from Circlet of Persuasion, since I already have Headband of Int) that boost UMD checks?