V's Biggest Mistake.

[TheBST]

Probably been said before and yeah, it's a bit of a 'Saturday morning cartoon' message, but V's biggest mistake overall was forgetting the importance of teamwork. Look at it this way:

- V needed Durkon's help with Bestow Curse to defeat the giant Devil.

- On the boat, hanging around with Elan, Durkon and the paladins was what
kept the dragon from attacking him.

- If the dragon had attacked with them around, the anti-magic field may not have been such an obstacle against Durkon's magic or the fleet's defenses.

-Durkon's Wind Walk spell or some other spells or scrolls may have gotten V to his family without having to lease his soul. If s/he'd stayed on the boat, contacting V's mentor or some other plan may have been more viable alternatives to the splice.

- The IFCC's entire goal is teamwork between the underworlds, the lack of which may be the only reason the forces of evil haven't destroyed half of the heavens yet.

- Only as a team did the IFCC have the resources to track V and have a soul each so the splice would actually seem attractive to V.

- In their own ways, Haley, Belkar, Elan and Durkon were able to unite without V's power through their own skills. Now even Elan can do something V probably wishes he could but cannot: cast healing magic.

- V needed the assistance of three souls to defeat the dragon. On his/her own, V didn't have a snowball's chance.

- It's Redcloak's brains and Xykon's brawn that makes Team Evil such a threat. The combination of Redcloak's foresight with the traps and his knowledge of the splice combined with Xykon's 'sledgehammer' magical prowess is what made them too much for V. If they fought V individually, V might've wiped the floor with them.

Considering this whole arc has been spent on the reunification of the Order- how they grew as individuals but need each other to overcome the forces of Evil- is something even Belkar realized. Not V though- his own arrogance has kept him from realising this. Thinking that he didn't need Durkon and Elan, that his team-mates were 'distractions' and that he could accomplish it all on his own lead him to leaving the boat which was the start of all V's misery.

[Tempest Fennac]

Those are all good points. The only think that I really disagree on is V's arrogance being the only reason why s/he insists on trying to do things alone; the Azure City escape where V was unable to save the soldiers appears to have been traumatic, and Elan and Durkon were pretty ineffective regarding getting the main quest back on track after the Order split up (eg: Durkon wanted to go to the next gate without Haley, Belkar or Roy and Elan seemed more interested in romance sub-plots then with saving the world), so it's not hard for me to see why V would decide everyone else was useless.

[GoC]

In a word: No.

1. Bestow Curse requires a failure of both saving throw AND spell resistance. It made absolutely no sense within the framework of the rules.
2. See 3.
3. No. Antimagic field would have affected Durkon just as badly. The dragon could have slaughtered the fleet easily with it's DR and an antimagic field. Why it didn't is more of the universe hating V.
4. She had no reason to suspect that a dragon was out to soulbind her children. Did the relatives of any other random encounters come calling?
5. True more or less. Not teamwork so much as simply agreeing NOT to spend 99% of their efforts trying to kill eachother.
6. Got any points to back that up?
7. Healing magic would be completely irrelevant here. Xykon would slaughter them all.
8. An ancient black dragon with a minimum of three sourceror levels is CR 21. See comment on Black Dragon vs. Fleet.
9. If V had had a fraction of the intelligence of any of the D&D players on these boards he would have wiped the floor with them both. He acted around int 4 in the latest strip.
10. What? She thought that the best way to find them was if a she could develope a spell and they were distracting her. The reason these alliances are needed is a meta one as technically with a few levels either Durkon or V could destroy Xykon (the rest are meleers/bards and useless at epic levels, at least in 3.5e). It wasn't any action of Durkon or Elan that resulted in the reunification, in fact V was the only one of the three putting any effort at all into it! The fact that those months of work were made useless by the evil DM was not his fault.

[SPoD]

and Elan and Durkon were pretty ineffective regarding getting the main quest back on track after the Order split up

Ineffective at getting the plot on track? Yes. Ineffective at providing combat support to a lone wizard? Emphatic no. V's mistake is that he lumped one in with the other.

[SPoD]

In a word: No.

1. Bestow Curse requires a failure of both saving throw AND spell resistance. It made absolutely no sense within the framework of the rules.
2. See 3.
3. No. Antimagic field would have affected Durkon just as badly. The dragon could have slaughtered the fleet easily with it's DR and an antimagic field. Why it didn't is more of the universe hating V.
4. She had no reason to suspect that a dragon was out to soulbind her children. Did the relatives of any other random encounters come calling?
5. True more or less. Not teamwork so much as simply agreeing NOT to spend 99% of their efforts trying to kill eachother.
6. Got any points to back that up?
7. Healing magic would be completely irrelevant here. Xykon would slaughter them all.
8. An ancient black dragon with a minimum of three sourceror levels is CR 21. See comment on Black Dragon vs. Fleet.
9. If V had had a fraction of the intelligence of any of the D&D players on these boards he would have wiped the floor with them both. He acted around int 4 in the latest strip.
10. What? She thought that the best way to find them was if a she could develope a spell and they were distracting her. The reason these alliances are needed is a meta one as technically with a few levels either Durkon or V could destroy Xykon (the rest are meleers/bards and useless at epic levels, at least in 3.5e). It wasn't any action of Durkon or Elan that resulted in the reunification, in fact V was the only one of the three putting any effort at all into it! The fact that those months of work were made useless by the evil DM was not his fault.

You are largely missing the OP's point.

What the rules imply or proscribe is NOT the same thing as the story that is being told here. This is not an actual game. Whether or not the rules support or oppose what the OP is suggesting is less important than whether or not the theme of the narrative supports it. Rules are taking a back seat to story, and the story here is very clearly that V is suffering because of trying to do everything him/herself.

Remember, Rich has said that there are now many more people who read this strip that have never played D&D 3.X than have. Someone with no knowledge of the rules would read this latest strip and think it was entirely reasonable: V went in guns ablazin' because he/she arrogantly assumes that his/her power is superior, and Xykon starts beating on him/her largely because he has the support of Redcloak. It makes narrative sense, whether or not it fits with the rules.

[TheBST]

In a word: No.
3. No. Antimagic field would have affected Durkon just as badly. The dragon could have slaughtered the fleet easily with it's DR and an antimagic field.

6. Got any points to back that up?

7. Healing magic would be completely irrelevant here. Xykon would slaughter them all.

3. Still, the dragon chose to play it safe. I stand by point that going AWOL made V a lot more vulnerable. As the dragon said, 'were you so arrogant as to assume you had not made any enemies?'. Having allies kept V, even temporarily, safer.

6. Nothing explicitly mentioned in the comic, but it's implied that each soul has a different alignment and came from the different domains the IFCC represents. If, say, Cedric had approached alone and only had one soul to offer, V may have declined it.

7. It's still a very useful skill and one V won't ever had- proof even the most seemingly useless of his allies has something valuable to offer.

I'll agree to disagree with you overall, but I can't on this point:



9. If V had had a fraction of the intelligence of any of the D&D players on these boards he would have wiped the floor with them both. He acted around int 4 in the latest strip.



The characters in this story don't have access to all the books of spells or a community of people debating better solutions to their problems. We usually have four or more days between strips to mull over the problems, the characters may only have seconds or minutes and don't have the benefit of all that extra time to plan their actions. Plus there's the elements of fear, surprise etc. that influence the character's next move that we, the detached readers, don't feel. High INT does not make a character infallible.

EDIT: SPoD's put it more eloquently than I have.

[Kaytara]

In principal, I agree with the OP's post, but I think it's more nuanced than that. It's not about teamwork per se... After all, V abandoned the party when he chased off after the Titanium elementals, too, and triumphed valiantly there. We also have many characters in the story who triumph and succeed despite working alone (Miko on her missions, Xykon before he met Redcloak). By contrast, being in a team hasn't really helped the Order all the numerous times they've been completely pwned by someone. In short, this doesn't seem to be the sort of story to anvil an aesop like that into our minds.

I would say it's more about V's reliance on his magic and power as a crutch for his ego. He is arrogant and feels the need to prove it to others and to himself that is he better than others, and his magic is just a tool towards that end. V feels that he is the most important and crucial member of the party and objectively, this is close to the truth, but the whole foundation of his self-esteem lies on that one belief. Notice that the Powers of Plot foiled him so far not in accomplishing ANY important things, but exclusively those he had been trying to exploit to re-establish his ego. (In fact, I consider V's otherwise rather bizarre line about "albatross around my slender elven neck" in "Separate Ways" - I mean, who the hell talks about their neck that way??? - to be another kind of flailing attempt to re-establish his superiority to others, falling back on the "elves are better" argument rather than his magic for a change.)

It's been said that power cannot be an end onto itself and that there must be some motivation, even an unacknowledged one. I think this fits the mark. V wants to prove that he is better than everyone else, and he has already embraced the belief that magical power is better than anything else. Therefore, by acquiring more magical power than anyone else, he will be better than anyone else. A tragedy in the making, obviously, which is why I'm quite happy that Rich is resolving it so relatively early in the story, which hopefully means that V will actually grow as a character and get over himself.

Actually, you know what? This is all just a phase. V isn't 130, as believed, but actually about 80, and just freshly into his teens. This explains both his mood swings, believing himself to be the centre of the universe, and the still underdeveloped secondary sexual characteristics. :smallbiggrin:

That aside, I agree with GoC's points in that the scenario thus far used to enforce this kind of character growth can be summed up as "the universe gangs up on Vaarsuvius", or Deus Angst Machina to quote TVTropes. However, I consider that to be entirely appropriate, because Vaarsuvius getting over his pride and ego? We're talking about a fundamental change here, and nothing short of a (metaphorical, so far) ride through hell could possibly fit the bill without coming off as cheap.

The only thing that DOES annoy me is the inconsistency of many forumites. Past poll results show that V was actually the most popular of the Order, even though back then he possessed the same qualities he does now and they simply revealed themselves less often. Back then, it was considered badass and cool, but since V's "fall" people are brimming with hate and schadenfreude for him, completely ignoring the fact that V's trials so far would have reduced an average person to a quivering, incoherently babbling mass of drool in a padded cell, and that judging V's actions the way we do a normal person's makes absolutely no sense when he seems to be already several leagues over the point of a nervous breakdown. Just to get my minor gripe with this out of the way.

[Mr. Bean]

V lost because the plot required it.

[Darth Suvie]

It's rather disheartening to see my namesake making such poor use of the powers at hir disposal :smallfrown:

[ericgrau]

@ Mr. Bean's post: Bah, that's a cop-out. The "plot" doesn't make rocks fall out of the sky when someone needs to die, it needs to present a believable cause which only brings us back to the same "why" question.

Lack of reliance on teamwork is really one of the symptoms to an even greater mistake: arrogance regarding the power of arcane magic. Which is really just a symptom of the obvious problem brought up in the comic: wishing to have the power to always succeed. Although lack of teamwork is a big symptom.

1. V assumes a little more arcane power would have saved Azure City. Probably not, they were fairly screwed. And while another level might have saved more lives, 1 level lower might have let more die. It's not really a sensible thing to focus on. Heck, Durkon would have been an equally good buffer, a better healer (spontaneous mass cure spells are uber in regards to total HP healed) and better at overcoming spell resistance.

2. The ABD didn't attack the fleet because her chances of victory were lower, not because she couldn't win. There were many martial opponents on the ship who would not be as effected by an AMF, even though some of them have some magical abilities and gear. V left her team because she figured they were only a hindrance to her arcane studies without considering how she needed them.

3. Even winning against the demon was a lucky fluke; that strat had a low chance of success. Helping her allies as they asked instead of thinking she was the only one that could contribute would have been a better idea.

4. She didn't buff before fights, but tried to time stop during the fight instead. She didn't cast freedom of movement, engage the ABD from the distance, nor use a lot of other strategy. The ABD could have still just grappled her, barring still spell from one of the splices. Or even just readied attacks to disrupt spells at such a close range. We know V would have failed the concentration checks. She assumed she could just pop in and win, by shear power.

5. She didn't get a death ward from Durkon when going against a lich necromancer. That's a no-brainer in such a fight and a cleric-only spell. It stops energy drain, btw, among other negative energy spells. For that matter she didn't prep 1-2 energy protections with energy resistance and/or protection from energy. The most obvious choice would have been fire. Also see #4, except this time her time stop got disrupted. But these would rely on both caution and team-mates, when again she believed shear power should be enough.

And I'll 3rd the notion that char OP uses splatbooks and OotS for the most part does not. Pre-splice V had virtually no chance in the ABD fight, and even in other fights what V needed was basic strategy not cheesy tricks.

[PId6]

V lost because the plot required it.
QTF, enough said.

[Morgan Wick]

-Durkon's Wind Walk spell or some other spells or scrolls may have gotten V to his family without having to lease his soul. If s/he'd stayed on the boat, contacting V's mentor or some other plan may have been more viable alternatives to the splice.

This is damn near incomprehensible, since it's unclear under what circumstances all this would happen. But is Wind Walk fast enough that V could have arrived at the scene of the crime before the dragon ate V's kids?

[Winthur]

Actually, you know what? This is all just a phase. V isn't 130, as believed, but actually about 80, and just freshly into his teens. This explains both his mood swings, believing himself to be the centre of the universe, and the still underdeveloped secondary sexual characteristics.

Sig'd. :smallbiggrin:

[lord_khaine]

This is damn near incomprehensible, since it's unclear under what circumstances all this would happen. But is Wind Walk fast enough that V could have arrived at the scene of the crime before the dragon ate V's kids?

its very fast, but its not nearly fast enough.


5. She didn't get a death ward from Durkon when going against a lich necromancer. That's a no-brainer in such a fight and a cleric-only spell. It stops energy drain, btw, among other negative energy spells. For that matter she didn't prep 1-2 energy protections with energy resistance and/or protection from energy. The most obvious choice would have been fire. Also see #4, except this time her time stop got disrupted. But these would rely on both caution and team-mates, when again she believed shear power should be enough.

its a Lich Sorcerer, not a necromancer.
and though we know that Energy drain is Xykons solution to tought nuts, then V does not.

that aside, i disagree with the OP on most of the points.

[Kyouhen]

Only half of V's biggest mistake was forgetting teamwork. The other was in not bothering to find out Summon spells still work inside the Cloister. It should have gotten a few nice epic-level summons all over Xykon. :smallbiggrin:

[Mr. Bean]

@ Mr. Bean's post: Bah, that's a cop-out. The "plot" doesn't make rocks fall out of the sky when someone needs to die, it needs to present a believable cause which only brings us back to the same "why" question.

There are quite a few situations in OotS where I believe this could not have happened if it was within the rules of the game, or that it was simply too lucky for it to happen at that specific time.

That brings me to the question, though, what are the rules of the game? They cannot be exactly D&D rules. Is the story itself describing exactly what the rules are? Is the only boundary Rich's imagination?

There might be a very simple reason why V lost. My only concern is that V had two epic characters' spells along with V's own. That against one epic caster. Xykon must be of an incredibly high level to have won over V if there were no additional circumstances. Of course, it could be that V is just plain stupid. V indeed rushed into the battle against Xykon without preparation. V indeed did not even think of attacking and most probably easily killing Redcloak and the goblin general. It would have been far more effective, as it would have left Xykon in the position where he does not know that dispelling V is the ultimate spell to victory.

Then again, to make my conclusion, this is all happening in the plot. The plot describes that V is making these mistakes. Does that not mean the plot required V to lose?

[Kalbron]

Mr Bean and others pretty much have it correct.

V's "biggest mistake" was not demanding that the IFCC give hir souls that knew the spells Epic Plot Shield and Epic Protection From Chewtoy Status. :smalltongue:

[Zombie Nixon]

For people complaining about death wards, I don't know much about D&D, but V isn't exactly an expert on divine magic

V may not even know what a death ward is

[Dr. Cthulwho]

In a word: No.

1. Bestow Curse requires a failure of both saving throw AND spell resistance. It made absolutely no sense within the framework of the rules.

Maybe, but the rules in this context don't detract from the fact that for a moment V saw that his chances of success would be boosted by help from a team mate, which I think was the point.


2. See 3.

3. No. Antimagic field would have affected Durkon just as badly. The dragon could have slaughtered the fleet easily with it's DR and an antimagic field. Why it didn't is more of the universe hating V.

Or it could be that the ABD was serious in her desire to wait for the right moment so nothing could jeopardize her vengeance.

If the universe hated V the universe would have had the dragon do the deed, then come to tell V, then have V just go bad even though there was nothing he could do about it.


4. She had no reason to suspect that a dragon was out to soulbind her children. Did the relatives of any other random encounters come calling?

I'm guessing the OP refers to the fact the ABD wanted V to know first. If she had told V, and V had access to the others V might, theoretically, have had more options for contacting his master.

I don't think Wind Walk would do any good.


6. Got any points to back that up?

Well, each fiend could only splice one soul - in this scenario V needed Ganonron to get home, Haera for her Disjunction etc.

So I guess, really, the IFCC needed to be working together to give V a deal he couldn't resist (that is would work/play to V's power desire).


7. Healing magic would be completely irrelevant here. Xykon would slaughter them all.

I read it as the OP saying, generally, the the uses of having a varied party - such as people that can heal, which is useful even to a powerful caster.


8. An ancient black dragon with a minimum of three sourceror levels is CR 21. See comment on Black Dragon vs. Fleet.

I'm guessing the team theme to this is that V alone could do nothing, V as part of a weird splice party could do far more. That is - V needed help.


9. If V had had a fraction of the intelligence of any of the D&D players on these boards he would have wiped the floor with them both. He acted around int 4 in the latest strip.

Of course, but this is a story, the characters don't have quite the same knowledge base of experienced players.

And that seems picky anyway - the point that was being made is that, in the story, Xykon and Redcloak make a good team, with their positives helping to balance out individual deficiencies.


10. What? She thought that the best way to find them was if a she could develope a spell and they were distracting her.

Though the irony there is that once away from the group something relating to V provide the distraction, during which time the team achieved contact via more conventional means.


The reason these alliances are needed is a meta one as technically with a few levels either Durkon or V could destroy Xykon (the rest are meleers/bards and useless at epic levels, at least in 3.5e).

Maybe, but few games I've been in wouldn't be much fun without a team with a bit of variety.


It wasn't any action of Durkon or Elan that resulted in the reunification,

No, it was Haley, Belkar and Celia.


in fact V was the only one of the three putting any effort at all into it!

Plus Haley, and to a lesser extent Celia and Belkar.


The fact that those months of work were made useless by the evil DM was not his fault.

Why, because a solution was achieved that didn't directly reward V's obsessive tactics?

Ultimately what made V's work useless was the fact an Epic barrier was in his way that no amount of research was going to overcome, and that he then got access to an Epic soul that provided him the means to overcome it without making any use of his research... by which time the band was already getting back together.

[motub]

That brings me to the question, though, what are the rules of the game? They cannot be exactly D&D rules. Is the story itself describing exactly what the rules are? Is the only boundary Rich's imagination?
What is this "game" you speak of?

The Order of the Stick are not game characters, and are not playing a game. They are living their lives in a universe that shares many properties and laws (laws as in "law of gravity") with the base properties and laws of the (ever-changing and sometimes inconsistent) D & D universe, but is not defined by those properties and laws.

The comic is the connection between the OOtS universe and our Real-LIfe universe; one in which the "actors" (the OOts) know that this connection exists and that "we're watching" (which is why they can talk to us, and read our letters, or miss their cue because they were in the Green Room and didn't get the two-panel warning, or indeed crash through the fourth wall :smallsmile:), but there are no "players" exploiting the rules of the universe (which neither they nor we know all the rules of, but then again, we don't know all the rules of our own universe, so why should they know all the rules of theirs?) to "optimize" the OOtS so that they always "play their campaign" in a "viewer-satisfactory" manner. This is their life, just like Truman's life was his life in "The Truman Show". And in the same way, that is the charm and "hook" of "OOtS"-- it's their life, not a scripted event like, say, Big Brother, or A Shot at Love or whatever.

Roy didn't take off his "costume" and "go home" after somebody yelled "Cut!" every night and get it on with anybody... he was flatly "intimacy deprived" since the beginning of the strip (and possibly for an unspecified period before that), so of course he "thought with his Trouser Titan" when he met Miko (until she became so annoying that even the TT couldn't continue to desire her), and of course he jumped up on a table and yelled with glee when he finally had a nice date with a nice female who seemed to like him enough that he could feel fairly confident that he would finally "get some". Because this is his existence, as it's happening, for good or ill, and he was a healthy human male, for real. Of course, now he's quite really severely decomposed, but luckily the laws of this universe consider that a much less severe impediment to continued existence and even returned life, than the laws of our own.

Vaarsuvius really hasn't had any "sleep" for ... months, is it? Or at least no restful sleep. Maybe you've never encountered anyone with a serious sleep disorder, but yeah, it will make one nuts, and certainly lead to increasingly poor judgement, even if one is so fortunate as V and appear "functional" (there's that arrogance again-- "so I haven't tranced in four months, what of it? I'm fine; indeed just as good as I ever was." Yeah, right).

There is no DM who planned the whole campaign ahead of time and the "actors" inside the created universe are only following the linear path set out for them-- there are some times when Plot forces certain outcomes (as with Miko successfully chaining the Order off-panel), but Plot is one of the Laws of the Universe (one which Elan, being a dramatist, knows quite a bit about, just as an astronomer knows about the motion of planets and celestial bodies that affect us, even though we rarely interact with them directly). Within the Laws of the Universe, however, the actors are acting freely according to their own wills.

Insofar as one must generally act according to and within the boundaries the Laws of the Universe, then they are indeed within a game, but then by that standard, so are you and I. So if their lives are as much of a game as yours is (although perhaps following different rules), you can pretty much figure out the rules of their game the same way you figure out the rules of your game... by what you are told of said rules by those who have been "playing" longer, by trial and error... if one falls from a great height, one goes "splat" unless someone casts Feather Fall or Fly on one, or one is shapechanged mid-air to a winged creature or a creature with the ability to fly, so the Law of Gravity is in effect, for example-- or, in this specific case, gaining some familiarity with the rules of the game known as Dungeons and Dragons in our universe, which seem to have a fairly large commonality with the laws of the OOtS universe, although they are not a total one-for-one match.

[derfenrirwolv]

There might be a very simple reason why V lost. My only concern is that V had two epic characters' spells along with V's own. That against one epic caster. Xykon must be of an incredibly high level to have won over V if there were no additional circumstances.

There were a few additional circumstances. V has both souls, but doesn't have

1) Level appropriate items. Xykon on the other hand, has spent 3 months pimping himself out. I'm surprised he doesn't have spinners on his femur. An epic character could have been missed by a few of the energy drains

2) An epic characters BAB. He kept missing, even with the easy touch spell rules.

3) An epic characters saving throws.





Of course, it could be that V is just plain stupid.

That too. He didn't shapechange into something immune to negative levels, didn't throw up obscuring mist and aoe from the shadows, didn't use mirror image, didn't throw a quickened magic missle (which we know he can do on his own) into xykons face when he was held by the hand, didn't meteor swarm the building from the outside to get the mooks out of the way etc.





V indeed rushed into the battle against Xykon without preparation. V indeed did not even think of attacking and most probably easily killing Redcloak and the goblin general. It would have been far more effective, as it would have left Xykon in the position where he does not know that dispelling V is the ultimate spell to victory.

Well, in fairness to v on that account, theres no sign on Xykon and redcloak saying "stupid" and "i'm the brains of the outfit", even though we know it to be true.

[Dr. Cthulwho]

The only thing that DOES annoy me is the inconsistency of many forumites. Past poll results show that V was actually the most popular of the Order, even though back then he possessed the same qualities he does now and they simply revealed themselves less often. Back then, it was considered badass and cool, but since V's "fall" people are brimming with hate and schadenfreude for him, completely ignoring the fact that V's trials so far would have reduced an average person to a quivering, incoherently babbling mass of drool in a padded cell, and that judging V's actions the way we do a normal person's makes absolutely no sense when he seems to be already several leagues over the point of a nervous breakdown. Just to get my minor gripe with this out of the way.

I still like V. He was never my favorite character, but still interesting enough. And I find the current trials and tribulations interesting, and I have confidence the Giant has a plan for them that will lead to character development for V (and maybe a different sort of ultimate arcane power).

If Belkar can have a learning moment, so to can V!


There might be a very simple reason why V lost. My only concern is that V had two epic characters' spells along with V's own. That against one epic caster. Xykon must be of an incredibly high level to have won over V if there were no additional circumstances.

Well, there were additional circumstances. Which was largely what I thought would prevent V from winning in those threads that had predictions. If we placed V and Xykon alone in room and just rolled I think V would have run.

As it was that wasn't the case.


Of course, it could be that V is just plain stupid.

I prefer out of his depth. Great power, but less then capable of using it effectivly...


V indeed rushed into the battle against Xykon without preparation.

And arrogance and impatience.


V indeed did not even think of attacking and most probably easily killing Redcloak and the goblin general.

This is V, all full of beans and eager to take down Xykon. It is well within his character to ignore the minions. His disparaging remarks concerning divine magic make it hard to believe he saw Redcloak as a threat.


It would have been far more effective, as it would have left Xykon in the position where he does not know that dispelling V is the ultimate spell to victory.

True, but V didn't know that was going to happen, or that Redcloak would come up with a plan to sever the splice.

Now a more experienced epic spellcaster wouldn't probably make that mistake. V isn't an epic spell caster, V is a mid-high level spell caster gaining benefits from two attached souls.


Then again, to make my conclusion, this is all happening in the plot. The plot describes that V is making these mistakes. Does that not mean the plot required V to lose?

Well, the plot required V didn't do away with all the bad guys that give the good guys a reason to do what they do. What is important is that the plot is convincing in why V couldn't do it. I think it was, some don't, and it is all good fodder for discussion. :smallwink:

[Mr. Bean]

What is this "game" you speak of?

Sorry, I wasn't very specific with what I meant. I was more generally speaking in the way as the saying goes: "the rules of the game". It doesn't necessarily have to be a game, but there are still rules for it. The rules for the OotS are always followed, because the only boundaries are Rich's imagination. There is no possible way the OotS violates the rules, simply because the rules are exactly followed whatever they do. The "game" in this case is the OotS universe, the rules in this case are probably completely redundant, since I feel the rules are always followed, no matter what.


1) Level appropriate items. Xykon on the other hand, has spent 3 months pimping himself out. I'm surprised he doesn't have spinners on his femur. An epic character could have been missed by a few of the energy drains

True. V is unable to wear any epic items and that's probably a major setback in his fight against Xykon.


2) An epic characters BAB. He kept missing, even with the easy touch spell rules.

Also true. Perhaps V expected to be of epic level when connected with the souls.


3) An epic characters saving throws.

Too bad we can't see if the two actually succeeded in any saving throws or failed them all. I assume V failed them all, though, considering Xykon is of much higher level.


That too. He didn't shapechange into something immune to negative levels, didn't throw up obscuring mist and aoe from the shadows, didn't use mirror image, didn't throw a quickened magic missle (which we know he can do on his own) into xykons face when he was held by the hand, didn't meteor swarm the building from the outside to get the mooks out of the way etc.

These things describe exactly what I mean with that V lost due to the plot requiring it. V is capable of handling situations, even though not always. V basically screwed up on anything in his battle with Xykon, could have done so much more.


Well, in fairness to v on that account, theres no sign on Xykon and redcloak saying "stupid" and "i'm the brains of the outfit", even though we know it to be true.

I'm actually wondering now if the OotS even knows what Redcloak is capable of, though I'm just assuming V, in his arrogance, thought he could best Xykon whatever was thrown at him. In fact, he was quite immune to both Tsukiko's and Redcloak's spells. The reason he failed was due to Redcloak telling Xykon he needed to use superb dispelling (not specifically, of course), which could have been prevented by killing him.


Well, there were additional circumstances. Which was largely what I thought would prevent V from winning in those threads that had predictions. If we placed V and Xykon alone in room and just rolled I think V would have run.


I prefer out of his depth. Great power, but less then capable of using it effectivly...

It is unfortunate V not nearly used all of the power at his disposal in an effective way, I believe it would have turned the battle into a loss for Xykon.


Well, the plot required V didn't do away with all the bad guys that give the good guys a reason to do what they do. What is important is that the plot is convincing in why V couldn't do it. I think it was, some don't, and it is all good fodder for discussion.

My point was that V could have won, but it would in no way be good for the plot. That is why in the plot V eventually lost due to reasons easily explainable. I'm not implying this as if, what was said earlier too, a rock fell out of the sky for no reason at all and crushed V, because otherwise V would have won the battle. I'm implying the plot required V to lose and thus is able to explain why Xykon won.

[Kish]

The only thing that DOES annoy me is the inconsistency of many forumites. Past poll results show that V was actually the most popular of the Order,

I find this hard to believe. It's certainly news to me that Vaarsuvius has ever approached the popularity of Elan or Belkar. (And I don't say this because I can personally relate to the appeal of Belkar...ahem.)

In any case, it's always a mistake to assume any given individual is being "inconsistent" by disagreeing with a majority, particularly, but not limited to, "the majority of those who bothered to vote in this unspecified-time-ago forum poll." Maybe none of the people who picked Vaarsuvius then are still on the forum. Just possibly, there is not 100% overlap between the sets of "vocal forum posters now" and "forum posters who voted in this poll."

However, suppose your implication is right, and large numbers of people used to like Vaarsuvius and no longer do. So what? Even if, as you say, Vaarsuvius hasn't changed at all over the webcomic's run, we certainly know more of him/her than we did earlier. A forum poll is not a wedding vow. There is no "as long as we both shall live" implication in voting in one, nor is there a requirement to make sure no forum poll gets carried by a majority you disagree with if you wish to own your opinions.

[Optimystik]

However, suppose your implication is right, and large numbers of people used to like Vaarsuvius and no longer do. So what? Even if, as you say, Vaarsuvius hasn't changed at all over the webcomic's run, we certainly know more of him/her than we did earlier. A forum poll is not a wedding vow. There is no "as long as we both shall live" implication in voting in one, nor is there a requirement to make sure no forum poll gets carried by a majority you disagree with if you wish to own your opinions.

It's little passages like this that make me enjoy reading your posts so much. :smallbiggrin:

[Kaytara]

However, suppose your implication is right, and large numbers of people used to like Vaarsuvius and no longer do. So what? Even if, as you say, Vaarsuvius hasn't changed at all over the webcomic's run, we certainly know more of him/her than we did earlier. A forum poll is not a wedding vow. There is no "as long as we both shall live" implication in voting in one, nor is there a requirement to make sure no forum poll gets carried by a majority you disagree with if you wish to own your opinions.

Kish: 1
Strawman: 0

I would appreciate it if you took quotes in context rather than leaving it out. I specifically said that what bothers me is that V is now being hated mostly for the very same qualities that made him popular earlier. Earlier, people cheered for him when he delivered a sarcastic, biting retort or cheered at the notion of Miko's death; now, when he does something like that people roll their eyes and complain about how arrogant and insufferable he is. Earlier, V very often took it upon himself to accomplish one thing or the other while emphasizing his own importance - see the first black dragon fight, the Miko fight, or hell, that time where V disobeys Roy's orders and runs to attack the Titanium Elementals - and nobody minded that. Now, a lot of people are pointing fingers at V's arrogance as soon as V says anything that begins with "I", as it is quite common in the English language, like "I still need to fix everything".

It just gives off the impression that people have no opinion of their own and just latch onto whatever light a character is being cast into at the moment, and that's what bothers me.

[Zanaril]

Well I still think V is cool, even if s/he is long overdue a reality check.

[Code Black]

It makes narrative sense, whether or not it fits with the rules.

I don't do this much, but Quoted For Truth, right there.

Were not just reading a study into the rules and statistics of D&D, we're reading a story, and most of the time things that makes narrative sense (or things that are funny) trump things that would precisely follow the rules of the game, and, as a person who has never played it, I'm pretty thankful for that.

[Kish]

Kish: 1
Strawman: 0

I don't think that word means what you think it means.

Some people like Vaarsuvius, some don't. Some people liked Vaarsuvius previously for different reasons than you're asserting, some people dislike him/her now for different reasons than you're asserting. Some people dislike him/her because they disagree that s/he hasn't changed over the course of the strip. Some people--it doesn't matter. No one is obligated to like a character the majority supposedly liked in the past. Even if you mentioned anyone specific instead of this weird "previous polls showed that" business, all that person would have to say would be, "Yes, I thought that then, but I changed my mind," or, "No, the circumstances are completely different."


Earlier, people cheered for him when he delivered a sarcastic, biting retort or cheered at the notion of Miko's death; now, when he does something like that people roll their eyes and complain about how arrogant and insufferable he is. Earlier, V very often took it upon himself to accomplish one thing or the other while emphasizing his own importance - see the first black dragon fight, the Miko fight, or hell, that time where V disobeys Roy's orders and runs to attack the Titanium Elementals - and nobody minded that.

*starts to reply extremely sarcastically, stops, and edits* Of course some people minded that. I commented when Vaarsuvius cheered at the notion of Miko's death that Vaarsuvius wouldn't have the moral high ground with Miko now even if she took to habitually addressing him/her as "Hey, you, the stupid ugly one," and I find it incredible that you would assert that no one minded Vaarsuvius' actions in the first black dragon flight. For whatever reason, you apparently not only didn't see anyone who objected to any of the things you're talking about but are convinced of their nonexistence. Do I have to dig up the very old post where I called Vaarsuvius a hypocritical snob? Or can I simply assert that I exist?

You're complaining about inconsistency, but the inconsistency is only in the Everyone model you have in your head.



It just gives off the impression that people have no opinion of their own and just latch onto whatever light a character is being cast into at the moment, and that's what bothers me.
It's unfortunate that you have that impression, but if you're trying to make a case that it's grounded in reality rather than merely assert it, I'm afraid you're not convincing me. The impression I would say you're giving off is of an idee fixe about Vaarsuvius and "everyone's" opinions thereof, in which people who think they disagree with you are doing so for an illegitimate reason, whether they realize it or not.

The forum doesn't speak with one voice, and people change. This is not new, nor is it "inconsistent" in a way that carries negative judgments.

For the exact same action, some people will cheer for one character, and others will despise that character--and they have every right to react differently. For the exact same action, with time in between, the same person will cheer for a character and despise that character--and they're not doing something wrong by changing their views over time. Something that one person considers "exactly the same," another person will consider "completely different because of X, Y, and Z." Some people equate "you're saying something that isn't what I thought everyone thought" with inconsistency on this forum; it's not the first time I've seen this, and you're not the first person, but it's always confused me.

[Kaytara]

I don't think that word means what you think it means. Since you addressed something I never stated (i.e. that everyone is obliged to maintain the same opinion of a certain character), I fail to see how it is inappropriate.


Then I see little recourse for you. People don't think alike. Some people like Vaarsuvius, some don't. Some people liked Vaarsuvius previously for different reasons than you're asserting, some people dislike him/her now for different reasons than you're asserting. Some people dislike him/her because they disagree that s/he hasn't changed over the course of the strip. Some people--it doesn't matter. No one is obligated to like a character the majority supposedly liked in the past.
I was not asking for recourse, I was stating what bothers me and why. It's perfectly good and well that this gripe is subjective. In fact, since "people don't think alike", then you could stop trying to convince me that my position is incorrect, because that's the way I think, and if I find the things I outlined bothersome, then it's my right to do so. Thank you.


*starts to reply extremely sarcastically, stops, and edits* Of course some people minded that. I commented when Vaarsuvius cheered at the notion of Miko's death that Vaarsuvius wouldn't have the moral high ground with Miko now even if she took to habitually addressing him/her as "Hey, you, the stupid ugly one," and I find it incredible that you would assert that no one minded Vaarsuvius' actions in the first black dragon flight. For whatever reason, you apparently not only didn't see anyone who objected to any of the things you're talking about but are convinced of their nonexistence.
"Apparently", yes. I suppose it is my own fault for not elaborating enough on what I meant and forgetting that it could set off your gripe about black dragons being treated like objects (though why you would immediately jump to the conclusion that I was talking about V's killing of the dragon when the other examples I listed have nothing in common with that is beyond me). But I'll elaborate now. I was not referring to V's execution of the dragon. I was referring to Vaarsuvius' attitude of "I am the most crucial member of the party and it falls to ME to save everyone", (for which there are logically many examples in an arc where he spends a lot of time being ignored and forgotten) and to the fact that this same attitude is being boo'd now, despite the fact that V has always been that way. So spare me your accusations about me being close-minded and unimaginative, please.


You're complaining about inconsistency, but the inconsistency is only in the Everyone model you have in your head.
It's interesting that you cling to a word that I used once in a sort of topic sentence for the rest of the paragraph. I've explained what I meant since then, numerous times.


It's unfortunate that you have that impression, but if you're trying to make a case that it's grounded in reality rather than merely assert it, I'm afraid you're not convincing me. The impression I would say you're giving off is of an idee fixe about Vaarsuvius and "everyone's" opinions thereof, in which people who think they disagree with you are doing so for an illegitimate reason, whether they realize it or not.
Looking over my posts, I do not see myself using the word "everyone" anywhere. I used either "people", which does not equal to everyone, or "many people" which is similar. So it seems that my "everyone" model is not my invention after all.
And why are you trying to turn this into a fight? Seriously, accusing me of having a "people who disagree with me are morons" mindset? The impression I'm getting is that you're just assuming I'm one of those people who deign to speak for the whole forum or try to convince everyone that Vaarsuvius is Lawful Good and are mentally copy-pasting rebuttals to that without really reading my posts in unbiased way.


The forum doesn't speak with one voice,
Never said it did.

and people change. This is not new, nor is it "inconsistent" in a way that carries negative judgments. ...
If you say that you love apples and a month later say that you hate apples, you're being inconsistent. An explanation for that is that your taste may have changed, yes, but it's an inconsistency nonetheless, in a purely technical sense. So if the forum community in general has lots of people admiring certain things, and later lots of people hate those things, even if they aren't the same people, then it's an inconsistency in general opinion. It can be explained by the fact that the object itself has changed in the meantime, causing opinions to change. That's the problem here: those qualities of V that are being bashed now have always been present and not always in lesser amounts.

[Schaffer1979]

I am afraid that I agree with Kaytara to some extent. I enjoy reading the posts and while Kish and others that tend to pick apart posts do have a talent for thinking critically, there is just as much supposition and interpretation done from a subjective standpoint that is not always accurate even from some of the best arguements presented.

This forum does go back and forth like the tide in who it likes and doesn't like and most likely due to reasons already brought up. I'm sure Kaytara is perfectly aware of that per her reply and already had taken that into consideration.

I'm not even sure why there's rebuttals going back and forth between two intelligent posters in a manner that seems attacking.

Frequently, those individuals very good at critical thinking go from attacking an arguement to attacking the individual rather than the argument and that's what I see.

I start losing interest and disliking these forums when that happens but I'll continue reading because of the fun bits I like to ferret out.

To get back on topic, V's biggest mistake I agree is ego. Even were I to acknowledge that yes he has the untapped potential to solo the BBEG, he did not apply his considerable prowess. Yes, yes, I'm aware that he is trying to limit the effects of the soul splice being against him; in short, trying to shorten the fiends' lease on his soul. However, he acquires a huge set of abilities that he doesn't have the experience or the knowledge to apply and essentially uses his own techinques of old to try to win when he knows that in order to succeed he just acquired abilities different than his own to widen his tactical advantage.

Logic seems to me to indicate that if you are acquiring different powers that perhaps different tactics might be in order. Also, V's attitude and knowledge of divine magic seems inconsistent in the story.

In the Miko arc, he knows enough about divine magic to trump Belkar's argument. He also knows enough to know what spells Durkon needs to cast to free him of Baleful polymorph when they fight the young adult black dragon. I think his ignorance of divine magic to explain him rushing in "guns blazing" for the liche as someone nicely put it was merely a plot driven moment and ran counter to actual character.

I would be willing to accept the argument that he's trance deprived except that even when he was trance deprived and showing it visibly, that his mind seemed in order to me. I haven't seen a moment in canon where I would consider V out of his mind or thinking irrationaly.

Though I would agree that at times he has been arrogant and overconfident. Anyone that considers themselves the master over the raw concept of physics and that has used magic to alter physics has some leeway to be arrogant and confident. It is through trying and living that we make mistakes and learn. That's what I consider V's story arc to be.

It easier to identify ourselves in a character when we see quirks we have and good storytelling draws you in because you can relate. Suspension of disbelief is easier if it is real to you through your own experience. That being the case, I wonder how many dislike V at the moment purely because they think V is acting stupid and are thinking "well if I had that power, here's what I would have done and I would have won" mentality. The character has suddenly very clearly been shown not to be relative to the reader at all and in rejecting the storyline they reject the weakness in their thought process.

Perhaps it is a bit deep and very philosophical but that's what I see.

A good story documents the change of the central character(s) from start to end. This is V's chance to change. I think Kish used to or still has a signature relating to that very concept and it's applicable as much to real life as it is story.

Simply put, V needs to learn through experience what to change to succeed. Everything else I think is just conjuncture. For my part, I hope V does succeed. I very much like the character and I (personally) feel that he is not evil because of my own style of dungeon mastering.

And to address an earlier claim, I can't remember who said it, where an individual was going off about how this is their lives and it's not scripted...yes it is, if we go by canon there are several of the Giant's strips where they are holding scripts. Including the cast and intro page and the strips immediately after the encounter with lawyers for the first time where the squid thingy liked Roy's brain and they tell the beholder "Don't call us, we'll call you."

I'm not sure exactly what it is except enjoyable. I like the story for the pure entertainment factor and the fact that I can see the indiosyncracies of the game I love as well as player quirks. I love the parody. And as a work of art, hold it in high esteem. I can't think of a single strip where I have been disappointed or been turned off the comic. Frankly, I think the disappointment comes for individuals who theory craft and then are upset their theory does not hold.

I love to read the theory crafting of the forumites. But I wish rather than getting butt hurt or personal about it, that people could be a little less attacking and a little more detached and reasonable (which is not a statement aimed at anyone in particular). So please no one take that way.

I am speaking in generalities. If I wanted to address someone specifically, I would have. Anyways, those were my thoughts.

I would like to see V saved. I'm hoping that it's O'chul and MitD that save the day. On that note, which thread is it where people suppose MiTD's identity? I am curiuos to find it and I want to know what clues we think Rich has given us for identity. If anyone could point me in the right direction, that'd be great.

Thanks.

[Thajocoth]

No no... :vaarsuvius:'s biggest mistake was not announcing :vaarsuvius:'s gender.

:tongue: