4e Wizard - How can I hit?

[LOLC2k]

I'm trying to overcome the lack of a proficiency bonus to hit. I'm currently 6th level, and I have a 21 intelligence. I am an Eladrin. I was thinking of using the feats to use my sword as my implement, but then I still wouldn't get the bonus to hit. Any ideas?

[V'icternus]

You really do need an implement.

Magical Implement bonuses replace proficiency bonuses for casters, and are near-essential if you want to hit most of the time.

So, just find a magical implement of some kind. Any kind. I'd reccomend at LEAST a +2 at your level.

This may not be the best advice, as my experience in the field of casters and their bonuses extends only to the Warlock, but frankly, my Tiefling Infernal Warlock can sometimes pull a +5 to +7 to hit if I'm lucky. (+3 implement, Prime Shot, Blood Hunt, Warlock's Curse)

So yeah, I would suggest an implement. It's really the only way to get a constant boost from all powers with the "implement" keyword.

[Douglas]

In general, you don't need to. The proficiency bonus is there specifically to counter the fact that AC tends to be higher than the other three defenses. None of your attacks target AC, so you should be able to hit just fine without the proficiency bonus.

Get a +2 implement and take Implement Expertise (PHB2) for it if you haven't already, and you will actually be at the top end of where you're supposed to be for attack bonus.

With the level and stats you gave, you should have an attack bonus of +11 with all your wizard powers, and this is actually quite good for 6th level.

Edit: No, magical implement bonuses do not replace proficiency bonuses. They replace magical weapon bonuses.

[LOLC2k]

In general, you don't need to. The proficiency bonus is there specifically to counter the fact that AC tends to be higher than the other three defenses. None of your attacks target AC, so you should be able to hit just fine without the proficiency bonus.

Get a +2 implement and take Implement Expertise (PHB2) for it if you haven't already, and you will actually be at the top end of where you're supposed to be for attack bonus.

With the level and stats you gave, you should have an attack bonus of +11 with all your wizard powers, and this is actually quite good for 6th level.

Edit: No, magical implement bonuses do not replace proficiency bonuses. They replace magical weapon bonuses.

Yeah, I have a +2 implement and weapon expertise, so I'm at +11, just seems like everyone in the party is at +12-+14, and it's solely because they use weapons.

[Artanis]

Yeah, I have a +2 implement and weapon expertise, so I'm at +11, just seems like everyone in the party is at +12-+14, and it's solely because they use weapons.
And, as douglas just said, that means nothing. Their attack might be a couple points higher, but they're trying to hit defenses that are higher than what you're trying to hit. That means that you have just as good a chance of hitting an enemy as they do. Hell, if anything, you have a better chance of hitting.

[Yakk]

When a weapon using character targets a non-AC defence, that (all by itself) is a bonus feature of the power.

Meanwhile, non-weapon users target non-AC defences by default, 'free of charge'.

It is true that sometines non-weapon powers aren't up to snuff: magic missle, for example, is sad in that it is a pretty standard attack that targets a non-AC defence: and meanwhile the rogue vs-Reflex attack is another pretty standard attack that gets a full proficiency bonus and attacks a non-AC defence.

On the other hand, the Rogue power is the best rogue at-will -- while magic missile is among the worst Wizard at-wills.

[Saph]

Be lucky?

Seriously, it's just the way 4e works. It doesn't matter what character or level you're playing, if you roll high you'll hit and if you roll low you'll miss.

I've been playing a few 4e ranged-attack characters, and I've noticed that once your character's been built, there's very little you can do to boost your to-hit chances. Even a completely twinked-out character who grabs every attack boost they possibly can will only have a 10%-15% edge over another, and that's not a big enough boost to be noticable except over the long term.

So sometimes you hit over and over again, and sometimes you miss over and over again, all according to the whims of random chance. There's really nothing you can do about it.

- Saph

[LOLC2k]

Be lucky?

Seriously, it's just the way 4e works. It doesn't matter what character or level you're playing, if you roll high you'll hit and if you roll low you'll miss.

I've been playing a few 4e ranged-attack characters, and I've noticed that once your character's been built, there's very little you can do to boost your to-hit chances. Even a completely twinked-out character who grabs every attack boost they possibly can will only have a 10%-15% edge over another, and that's not a big enough boost to be noticable except over the long term.

So sometimes you hit over and over again, and sometimes you miss over and over again, all according to the whims of random chance. There's really nothing you can do about it.

- Saph

Seems like it, which is one of my problems with 4e. Not that 3.5 didn't have tons of problems, too.

[Tengu_temp]

I personally like this aspect of 4e. And it's also not completely true - I'm waiting for Kurald Gurain to come to this thread with his rogue that ultimately could hit level-appropriate monsters at any roll apart from natural 1.

Anyway, to stay on topic, what others said already are true - your attacks are targetting non-AC defenses, which are by average 2 lower than AC. In order to boost your hit chance further, you should figure out what defenses are the lowest for each enemy and use powers that target this defense.

[Douglas]

Yeah, I have a +2 implement and weapon expertise, so I'm at +11, just seems like everyone in the party is at +12-+14, and it's solely because they use weapons.
Everyone else in the party is also probably attacking vs AC most of the time, and when they're not attacking AC they're using a weaker power. Their attack bonuses may be higher than yours, but so are the defenses they need to hit. Your chance to hit, which is the real number to be worried about, is almost certainly the same or better on average.

[Anakha]

The true advantage to wizard is that almost all of your attacks target a NAD, which is usually lower than their AC. Also, take Illusory Ambush as one of your at-wills. It targets Will, which is generally the lowest defense.

[HMS Invincible]

Suggested feats:
Action surge
Implement expertise
Expanded spell


Get grasping shadows for lvl 1 encounter
Get sleep and flaming sphere as your daily.

[Decoy Lockbox]

The true advantage to wizard is that almost all of your attacks target a NAD, which is usually lower than their AC. Also, take Illusory Ambush as one of your at-wills. It targets Will, which is generally the lowest defense.

Not to mention that the effect is great, and combos well with the psychic lock feat!

In my experience, 4e characters chance to hit is normally in the 65% - 45% zone, depending on character level, enemy level, items, feats, ability scores, etc. The way you get higher than that is by letting your party's leader give you a hand; after all, that is one of their main roles. The party with which I play has a wis-based cleric and a melee bard, and together they ensure that we can almost always land our best attacks.

I find the 4e "to hit" paradigm far, far superior to any of the previous editions, especially 1st and 2nd edition, where to hit scores rapidly outstripped AC at the higher levels -- AC maxed out at -10 (i.e. 20 points from the base of 10, equivalent to a modern-day AC of 30), while "to hit" just kept going up, having no cap. In 3.5, some character began hitting on 2's at early levels, while others had to struggle just to keep up. Higher level monsters frequently made their saves against spells (the 3.5 equivalent of "missing" with a spell in 4e) cast by unoptimized casters, while fully optimized casters often had unbeatable DC's.

Now, in 4e, all "normal" characters tend to fall somewhere in the 65%-45% continuum, with particularly well built or poorly built characters sometimes exceeding or falling below. For example, my level 8 Fencer Paladin uses a +2 rapier, has a 20 str, weapon expertise: light blade, the at-will power "valiant strike" and the nimble blade feat. He has a +15 attack roll when he performs a basic melee attack, giving him a 70% chance to hit against an average lvl 8 monster AC of 22. When he flanks a single lvl 8 monster and uses valorous strike, he can hit the average enemy AC on a 3, a 90% chance to hit. With buffs from our bard/cleric, it can get even better. This is an example of a character that is built to eke out every point of to-hit he can (or at least, every point without making his defenses really low).

On the other hand, our avenger has only a +13 to hit (+2 executioner axe, 20 wisdom, no weapon expertise), which gives him a 60% chance to hit average lvl 8 monsters. However, he takes advantage of flanking, buffs and the Avenger oath class feature to increase his chance to hit.

Casters are in an interesting situation in 4e; weapon-users have the choice of using a +2 or +3 proficiency weapon, giving those who choose +3 a 5% higher to hit chance. But since casters do not use weapons with their spell attack rolls, they do not have this option. As a wizard, your best bet is to max out your intelligence, take the "distant advantage" feat from PHB2, as well as implement expertise, and try and get the highest level implement you can afford. Always look for ways to increase your odds of hitting, such as buffs, debuffs, clever play, etc. Also, try and use your wizard's massive knowledge (represented by skills like arcana, nature, religion, etc) to try and determine the enemy's weakest defense, and then target that defense. One of the reasons that wizards are so popular is that they can target all 3 of the non-Ac defenses with their at-wills.

Another advantage that you have as a wizard is the large number of area attacks at your disposal; the more people you target, the more rolls you make, and the higher your chance of hitting someone.

[Artanis]

Ah, found what I've been looking for: Monster Stats (http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-4th-edition-rules/229092-lots-statistics-monster-manual.html)


Long version:

FORT attacks don't work very well (by which I mean "at all") against Brutes, but other than that, you have a better chance to hit than the weapon-user with the +12. Period. You also get a huge advantage over the other guys.

A +11 vs. WILL attack has a better chance of hitting four of the seven monster roles than a +14 vs. AC attack does, and comes really damned close (less than one point's worth of to-hit) on the other three. +11 vs. REF also is either close, equal, or better than +14 vs. AC against five of the seven monster roles.


tl;dr version:

Your attacks are +11 vs. DEFENSE. The weapon-users' attacks are +14 vs. (DEFENSE+3).

[LibraryOgre]

Be lucky?

Seriously, it's just the way 4e works. It doesn't matter what character or level you're playing, if you roll high you'll hit and if you roll low you'll miss.


Actually, with most level-appropriate encounters, if you roll better than an 11 you'll frequently hit; bosses generally push the number up to around 15.

[PnP Fan]

Someone else has mentioned this, but it was an afterthought in their post, so I just want to bring it to the forefront.
Pick your powers so that you can pick which non-AC Defense you are attacking. Then, with judicious use of common sense, use the power that you think targets the worse Defense of your enemy (I'm assuming you aren't looking through and memorizing the MM). Don't use Fort attacks against brutes, use Will attacks. Save your Fort and Refl attacks for your enemy wizard/controller types, etc. ..
Don't forget that things like combat advantage work for you too! Set yourself up, nail a group of villains with something that gives a Stun or Dazed effect, then re-attack.
If you are playing a human, go for Action Surge. Then, when you use your action point, use an At-Will for your normal action, followed by your big Daily, or Encounter with the +3 bonus to it. Even better if you've got a Warlord in the party (+5!!!!)!
Last, but not least, create your own luck. I'm not saying that you should shave your dice, or cheat. What I am saying is that not all dice are created without manufacturing defects. If you're dice don't roll well on a regular basis, check them out, do 50 or so rolls with them. They might be weighted against you! I've found a few dice that continuously roll below average, removed them from my bag, and now my games go much better.

[Saph]

Actually, with most level-appropriate encounters, if you roll better than an 11 you'll frequently hit; bosses generally push the number up to around 15.

Hm? I don't follow. How's that different from 'high hits, low misses'?

Anyway, building on what other people have said, there are a few (a very few) 4e builds that can hit reliably (I think the Avenger and the Dagger Rogue are the most well-known ones).

In theory, spellcasters like Wizards can boost their to-hit chances by picking an attack that targets the right NAD. In practice, this doesn't usually work, firstly because you usually don't know the enemies' lowest NAD, and secondly because you don't have enough powers. E.g., if you're attacking a group of enemies at range, you'll be using your most powerful Ranged Burst power. If you need to push a target away, you'll be using your Close Push power. It's not likely that you're going to have Close Push powers in Fort, Ref, and Will flavours.

- Saph

[NecroRebel]

In theory, spellcasters like Wizards can boost their to-hit chances by picking an attack that targets the right NAD. In practice, this doesn't usually work, firstly because you usually don't know the enemies' lowest NAD, and secondly because you don't have enough powers. E.g., if you're attacking a group of enemies at range, you'll be using your most powerful Ranged Burst power. If you need to push a target away, you'll be using your Close Push power. It's not likely that you're going to have Close Push powers in Fort, Ref, and Will flavours.

- Saph

That's somewhat true at lower levels, but once you hit Paragon tier the Foe Stone becomes readily available, making picking the right NAD trivially easy; it just takes a minor action per enemy type at the start of each battle. Foe Stones (AV172) are theoretically available in normal loot as early as level 8, so... yeah. In general, Foe Stones are valuable for everyone, and nigh-essential for high-level Wizards or others who can target varied defenses.

As for needing AoEs, that's kinda the point of picking varied NAD-targeting powers in the first place, and, again, as you level up you should be picking a variety. The difference in strength of powers between, say, level 1 and level 11, isn't enough to warrant using a level 11 over a level 1 if the level 1 targets a defense 4 points lower.

I do agree that you're unlikely to have more than one or two close push powers, but then again those are something that, ideally at least, are last-ditch only anyway.

[Saph]

As for needing AoEs, that's kinda the point of picking varied NAD-targeting powers in the first place, and, again, as you level up you should be picking a variety.

Yes, but they do different things as well as targeting different defences. E.g., an 11th level Wizard who has as his encounter powers Storm Cage, Spectral Ram, Fire Shroud, and Grasping Shadows can in theory target different defences, but normally circumstances will dictate when you use one or the other. If the enemies are mixed with the party you have to use Fire Shroud, if you want to set up a barrier at a distance you'll use Storm Cage, etc.

Foe Stones are very good, true, but they're still relatively obscure mid-level items from a book not everyone uses. You can't count on always having one.

- Saph

[LOLC2k]

Yes, but they do different things as well as targeting different defences. E.g., an 11th level Wizard who has as his encounter powers Storm Cage, Spectral Ram, Fire Shroud, and Grasping Shadows can in theory target different defences, but normally circumstances will dictate when you use one or the other. If the enemies are mixed with the party you have to use Fire Shroud, if you want to set up a barrier at a distance you'll use Storm Cage, etc.

Foe Stones are very good, true, but they're still relatively obscure mid-level items from a book not everyone uses. You can't count on always having one.

- Saph

In defense, I don't know of any wizard who doesn't take the craft magical item series of rituals... no exp cost, so you can easily have the item when its available. That being said, yeah, it seems like I'm ok off, especially because one or two of the characters didn't put an 18 in a stat, giving them 20, so I'm about the same to hit as some of them.