[3.5] Need proof that casters more broken than ToB

[Frosty]

One of my friends wants to ban Tome of Battle after having played it in one camapign himself nad having witnessed it played in 3 campaigns, saying they break the game. Yet, he doesn't want to ban spellcasters. I need your help to prove to him that casters break campaigns a lot more than Tome of Battle characters do. What I need are builds at level 11 and 18 that will be even more effective in battle than ToB characters.

Books allowed: PHB, PHB2, DMG, MM1, all the Completes (including Complete Champion), Races of the Wild, Races of Dragon, Races of Destiny, Races of Stone, Spell Compendium, Magic Item compendiun, Drow of the Underdark, Fiendish Codex 1 and 2, Frostburn.

Restrictions: No Campaign-specific materials. So, nothing from Eberron or Faerun allowed (no Incantatrix cheese for example). No Celerity. No Shivering touch. No spells that turn you evil like Avasculate. No Dragon magazine material. Karma beads not allowed

I'm guessing go DMM Persist cleric to be melee monster. Not sure what MM1 forms to go with as a Druid, but Druids are uber anyways. With the Sorc I'm thinking go nuts for Orb of Fire and stacking metamagic reducers like crazy. Wizard not sure yet, Probably go Spontaneous Divination variant and do standard Batman.

Remember. This is not PVP. This is probably having the characters going through a series of different encounters (both team and solo, and sometimes known beforehand, and sometimes surprised) and see who has an easier time.

[Shinizak]

Barbarian with 2 weapon fighting and power attack buffed with bull's strength, enlarge person, haste and is currently raging. could be done at 3rd level, and each attack deals about 11-15 damage each, and you get 4 attacks.

[Douglas]

I take it he's running a formal test for you, with your party having casters in place of his party's ToB characters?

I can think of two different approaches you might try to go for here:
1) Go overkill and demonstrate just how thoroughly broken casters can be.
2) Make powerful but not overtly broken characters that don't rely too much on any one thing.

With the first approach, you should massacre everything you come across but you might end up achieving nothing more than adding Persistent Spell, Nightsticks, and maybe a few others things to his banned list. The second approach will not overshadow the ToB party as much and will be more difficult to optimize properly without crossing over into option 1, but if done well will prove your point better. Which do you want to try?

[Sstoopidtallkid]

I assume your doing a caster-only party or something. The exact setup will determine some specific points of the build(do we need a Kobold Cloistered Cleric to replace the Rogue, etc)

Druid beats any of them. Use any of the tricks to keep your gear, go with a Monk's Belt for AC, pick something big and dangerous for a companion, and utelize horrible, horrible spells(Blinding Spittle from SpC is a perfect example). Basic optimization with that will make him ban core.

For the Cleric, either Kobold Domain and Cloistered to make up for the lack of a trapmonkey, or go War Weaver with Reach spell meta-reduced(no Heroes of Battle, so just go normal buffmeister Cleric with a different PrC) to buff the party to high heaven(using a Bead of Karma, Divine Spell Power, and similar CL-boosts), then use Detect Trap. Going CZilla is generally too much trouble for too little reward, especially if you want a party to do well more than an individual.

Sorcerer, I recommend going Glass Cannon. Take Heighten and Quicken Spell, lose the Familiar for Rapid Metamagic, and toss out massive Save-or-Dies, AoE Battlefield Control, and no-save Rays. Don't forget Wings of Cover and Flurry. Use Runestaves to supplement spells known, and Fly, Blink, and otherwise avoid danger.

Wizard, don't go Batman. That term has been overused to the point of meaninglessness. Go God (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=956548)

Or just give him the thread on 20th level magic v 20th level Psionics, then ask if either would be worried by a martial adept.

[Eldariel]

*shrug* There's a thousand ways for casters to be "better" than melee with that many sources. DMM: Persist Cleric is probably the easiest comparison - they do the same thing, only DMM: Persist Cleric's numbers are off the charts. Use Extend Spell in conjuction for 48 hour spells to double the number of persistable stuff.

Druid just buffs with Greater Magic Fangs and what-have-yous and have biggest AC available on any given level (with or without Natural Bond to mitigate the level adjustment) and Wildshapes, if not thinking of anything better, to a generic Dire Bear/Tiger/flyer/Tendriculous/whatever. Then packs some offensive magic and dispels and whatever. Wilding Clasped Monk's Belts and so on.

And Wizard focused on disabling things rocks on those levels. Contingencies and Greater Mirror Images and what-have-yous should keep you alive, along with the Heart of X-spells (on all day) and such.

Sorcerer could be a versatile build with 1 Save-or-X per save (say, Glitterdust/Web/Stinking Cloud) and Heighten Spell. Then focus the rest on utility and pack that one Boom Boom spell. Maybe Sudden Metamagic with Residual Magic to make few Big Booms every now and then. Or Arcane Thesis.

[Frosty]

We haven't agreed upon the exact details of the test yet, but I don't think it'll be a party of 4 casters vs 5 ToBers. It'll probably be a solo test and then a test within a standard party.

See, he seems to think that a ToB character can solo monsters 4 CRs above him pretty easily. I said that is due more likely to the CR system screwing up or the DM not playing the monsters well, becuase I'm not sure how a level 7 or 8 Warblade solo'ed 5 vampires. Seriously, the vampires can't touch the Warblade's AC? He also thinks that the Swordsage's 100 foot column of fire is overpowered and that the strike that Heals breaks campaigns.

We need a test to show that a caster makes fights even EASIER than a ToBer.

Perhaps an agreed-upon 3-man party that we will test by adding one ToB character and then by adding one caster and see who has an easier time?

[Epinephrine]

I get that casters can be powerful, but bear in mind that many campaigns take place at low level, and don't hit the huge power that casters can get at high level. Very little outshines things like Mountain Hammer/Punishing Stance on an already strong Warblade at low levels. A 3rd level character hitting for (as an example) 1d12+6+3d6 and ignoring DR is scary, and dispatches enemies pretty darn effectively.

The ToB is pretty front loaded - the classes have a lot of power at low levels.

Also, while I agree that casters can kick some major butt at higher levels, casters must cast to be effective. If the campaign isn't allowing stuff like nightsticks, metamagic beyond what you can cast, etc., you are probably not looking at perpetually buffed/ready spellcasters. Meaning they need actions to get themselves really rolling; this can be an edge for characters like the ToB guys, who can manage to get a lot out of their standard actions.

Now - at 18th level, I have trouble seeing any melee class keeping up with a caster, unless you start in weird situations. Like woken up in the night by being grappled. Even 11th level has a lot of spellcasting power, but if you limit metamagic to spells you can cast you can only do 6th level spells, or 2nd level quickened spells, and nothing persistent. Many DMs limit casters by houseruling things like that - they use variants like Shapeshift to tame druids, they eliminate DMM, etc. The houserules in play matter a lot.

[kamikasei]

I'd say you're probably better with discussion than testing.

Trying to test the classes against one another in play is inefficient: there are far more options than can be explored in a single session, and far too much variance and happenstance influencing things. Better to list his objections and point out, no, that's less powerful than a spell of that level, no, that doesn't work the way you think it does, yes, this ability is highly useful against certain types of opponents but just means you have to throw a mix of enemies at the party to provide a challenge...

Point out that casters still have more options, their options are still individually more powerful anyway, and that while they may have more limited per-day uses the party isn't likely to want to keep adventuring after the casters are out of spells anyway (and that a marathon session which would actually exhaust the casters is pretty atypical anyway). Explore how many of the scenarios he constructs where ToBers dominate are contrived or edge cases.

[lsfreak]

A third level, old Gray Elf wizard with Spell Focus (conj) has a DC18 or 19 Glitterdust and Web. Have fun making that at level 3. With flaws, you can have Metamagic School Focus and Sculpt Spell at level 3, therefore enabling you to hit at least 4 enemies no matter how spread out they are.
EDIT: And with Focused Specialist, you can do it 4-5 times a day, depending on whether you start with 16 or 18Int.

[Nero24200]

It would depend on the Playing Style as well. TOB is meant to balance against high powered casters, but contrary to popular internet forum beleif, not everyone does, or even wishes to play these high powered casters.

If the group the DM plays with isn't that interested in being number one and outshinning everyone else, then casters won't seem so powerful, and likewise TOB will seem more powerful.

I don't allow TOB in my campaigns because I beleive it's too powerful, but then again, I was also able to make a straight fighter at level 17 and outshine the rest of the party easily, so you can see how well my group handles optimization.

[Epinephrine]

A third level, old Gray Elf wizard with Spell Focus (conj) has a DC18 or 19 Glitterdust and Web. Have fun making that at level 3. With flaws, you can have Metamagic School Focus and Sculpt Spell at level 3, therefore enabling you to hit at least 4 enemies no matter how spread out they are.
EDIT: And with Focused Specialist, you can do it 4-5 times a day, depending on whether you start with 16 or 18Int.

Right, and he still has to be able to cast them. If he loses initiative and gets hit he'll likely die. And if he survives the melee damage (unlikely if it's a reasonably strong meleer with a 2 handed weapon, using a maneuver and Punishing Stance), he's still got to cast defensively or something.

It's a lot of rock-paper-scissors. Yes, the wizard could stop the warblade. Yes, the warblade could pound the wizard. It depends on how it plays out.

Assuming no prep work, and starting within range of each other, a melee character at low level can do a good job on a caster. If the caster goes first, he has a good chance of disabling the melee. If the melee goes first, he has a good chance of disabling the caster. Taking a specialist wizard is fine, cute and all that.

You want a specific counter for the grey-elf?

Warblade or swordsage, using Diamond Mind maneuvers. Among your choices, pick Moment of Perfect Mind and Action Before Thought. Starting Con of 16 or so? 6 ranks of Concentration, +3 Con bonus, and skill focus (concentration) for +3; maybe even a concentration boosting item for +2. That's a solid +14 concentration check that he can use in place of his Reflex or Will saves, making a DC 18 on a 4. You want to get into flaws, traits, racial bonuses, etc.? Make him a Desert Orc, for more Con, take the Focused Trait. Yay, another +2 to the check!

Give him a Spiked Chain or something, so he can attack from 5' and threaten at 10. That way the wizard can't 5' step. Or just a polearm and spiked armour.

Two can play the "make up a scenario" game. If the warblade goes first he runs up and splatters wizard. If the wizard goes first he casts, 85%-95% of the time the warblade makes his save, and comes and kills the wizard on his turn.

There's little point to the "I can make up a scenario" approach. Hence hiding all this in a spoiler tag, as no doubt otherwise someone will respond with how this Diamond Mind guy could be beaten. Wizards are vulnerable to many things - being grappled, readied actions to attack when they cast, damage on their tiny little d4 hit dice... just like melee guys have their weaknesses.

[742]

well my group is a bit wonky and when it comes to wizard cheese im pretty rusty, but:

remember 24 hour and 1 hour per level duration buffs, metamagic rods of extend, and casting them 8 hours before rest(for the level 18 encounter anyway, note that this does not work for spontaneous casters). you wake up buffed and with full attack/short duration buff spells, and overland flight+superior resistance+unicorn/heart/blood/horn+heart of air/earth/water/fire+protection from fire+water breathing ect. ect. remember for short duration displacement blur mirror image, that sort of thing, if their strikes cant hit they dont do damage. take death ward, some fire protection spells(if your DM thinks the fire stuff is OP then they are sure to be heavy on it)body ward(complete champion for ability damage that you are sure to take from stone dragon/shadow hand/maybe tiger claw attacks) and will based stuns/save-or-suck/save-or-die spells. also mobility, you have the wizards/bards/clerics with travel domain you have the advantage. make sure to use fly(or air walk) invisibility and see invisibility (make sure to permenancy that and darkvision) on everyone in the caster group, make sure you have at least 1 person with a high spot (maybe cleric druid wizard, and either a telepath a kineticist, a cheesey gish or another wizard, maybe an assassin, theyre spellcasters, core even!) make sure to (over)use all sorts of teleports from benign transposition, to malign transposition dimension door and teleport. remember to dimensional anchor the swordsage(s) and if you can do that, then stay in the air, throw up a wind wall below you to prevent annoying bowfire, and keep your fire immunity up, theres no way they can prevent you from spamming sword of deception and save-or-suck spells until they die. need to rest? have magnificent mansion or rope trick ready, just to piss him off.

ask the DM if there will be noncombat challenges such as traps and pits to cross, to check if a skillmonkey is required, and what type of terrain its in (if its a blank arena then maybe druid isnt the best choice, if its a wooded area then maybe it is) so you know whether you can have a full out cheese fightery cleric or whether you need something more of the kobold variety.

and absolutely yes, spells like glitterdust or web (and psionic blast) that make you suck (especially glitterdust, 50% miss chance on a will save) are exceptionally strong against fighters. (improved) invisibility isnt a bad choice either, since it gives miss chance.

i apologize for my wall of text and rambling incoherence, if its too much PM me and ill fix it later.

[lsfreak]

@Epinephrine:
Of course there's a counter, that's not what this thread is about. This thread is about whether, PC-versus-Random Monster X, casters or ToB are more powerful. Not fighting each other. I provided an example to show that even at low levels, a wizard can be similarly "game-breaking" to ToB; the wizard effectively takes out an entire encounter 4 times a day, without even touching his 1st-level spells. And while the wizard might be caught unawares, he has at least +4 initiative, likely +5, and if he doesn't advance his age to boost his DC's that extra point, could easily be +7.

[Olo Demonsbane]

Ghostform. Cast ghostform, and laugh at all the pathetic high level monsters and traps that can't hurt you.

Arcane Thesis (Enervation), Signature Spell (enervation). Cast Empowered (+0), Stilled (-1) Silent (-1), Quickened (+2), Maximized (+1), Repeat (+1), Twinned (+2) Chained (+1) Sanctumed (-2), Fell Drain (+0) Enervation as a 9th level spell slot. It does 14 negative levels two turns in a row. Eat that!

@Epinephrine: Your example doesnt work very well. You have made a character focused on beating his third level character. When this discussion is about high levels. And since when does anyone focus on defense anyway? :smallconfused:

[Frosty]

We don't alliow Arcane Thesis to reduce a metamagic below 0. So a +0 meta would still only offer +0, not -1.

As for Glitterdust, it's great but my DM thinks that anyone who needs a party to help kill isn't broken. My Beguiler in his last campaign was MVP for most of the time, disabling tons of enemies, yet he found nothing that needed nerfing. Yet give a Warblade the ability to make 2 full-round attacks, and suddenly the world ends.

[lsfreak]

Well, if your DM doesn't consider turning entire counters into what is effectively abnormally-sized sloths with lots of hit points overpowered, he's got problems :smallconfused: I suppose one option is to Dominate every single humanoid that looks to be challenging, then using Programmed Amnesia or the like once you can.

Barring that, I guess it's down to metamagic cheese. Arcane Thesis + Metamagic School Focus, Empowered Maximized Split Ray Twinned Enervation does 20 negative levels at level 13 (7th level slot), 3 times a day and without dropping metamagic costs below +0. With Versatile Spellcaster , you can pull an Empowered Maximized Twinned Energy Admixtured Split Ray Orb of Fire at 14th level for ~800 damage 3 times a day, or at 15th level as a wizard (though I suppose Orbs technically aren't rays, they do all the same things, so depending on the DM only 400). Empowered and/or Maximized Heightened Cloudkill for 5+Con damage every round, combined with Freezing Fog or a couple Walls of Stone/Iron or a Shadow Evocation'd Forcecage to stop anyone from escaping.

[Eldariel]

We don't alliow Arcane Thesis to reduce a metamagic below 0. So a +0 meta would still only offer +0, not -1.

As for Glitterdust, it's great but my DM thinks that anyone who needs a party to help kill isn't broken. My Beguiler in his last campaign was MVP for most of the time, disabling tons of enemies, yet he found nothing that needed nerfing. Yet give a Warblade the ability to make 2 full-round attacks, and suddenly the world ends.

Maybe you should attempt to affect the DM's perspective on such matters then. He needs to realize that even if opponent isn't dead, as long as he isn't much of a threat, he's effectively "out".

Of course, Druids and Clerics can easily dish out more damage than melee, so showcase those two. Wizards and Sorcerers are much better at making opponents useless outside few specific builds. Meh, metamagic reducers + metamagic is still the way to go with offensive spellcasting.

[JoshuaZ]

We don't alliow Arcane Thesis to reduce a metamagic below 0. So a +0 meta would still only offer +0, not -1.

As for Glitterdust, it's great but my DM thinks that anyone who needs a party to help kill isn't broken. My Beguiler in his last campaign was MVP for most of the time, disabling tons of enemies, yet he found nothing that needed nerfing. Yet give a Warblade the ability to make 2 full-round attacks, and suddenly the world ends.

Once they've been effectively glitterdusted you don't need allies to help much. At that point, you can effectively potshot them with a bow. Or if you have a reserve feat, use that.

[Epinephrine]

@Epinephrine:
Of course there's a counter, that's not what this thread is about.

Sorry, your "try making that at third level" had me thinking that it was some sort of PvP comparison thing.

My earlier point was simply that ToB is very strong at low levels. Anyone whose exposure to it is primarily through low level (and thus, typical) campaigns will no doubt find it overpowered. Many campaigns start at low level, and end before casters hit their stride; if this is your DMs experience, I totally understand.

At 11th level casters are powerful and flexible, but don't have the resources to handle everything. At 18th I suspect that they exceed the power of ToB by a large margin.

[The_Snark]

Once they've been effectively glitterdusted you don't need allies to help much. At that point, you can effectively potshot them with a bow. Or if you have a reserve feat, use that.

It has a 1 round/level duration. At low levels, it doesn't last long enough to consistently kill anything; at high levels, any enemy that can be killed by a beguiler or wizard with a bow wasn't much of a threat anyway.

[CheshireCatAW]

Might I interject with a suggestion?

Ask your DM to go with assumed numbers for die rolls. For instance, the first time you test a concept, make every roll that would occur that scenario a 10, the second time a 15, the third time a 5, etc. This takes a huge amount of randomness out of the equation, that way, due to lucky/unlucky rolls, one build or another wont be seen as overpowered/underpowered unfairly.

Additionally, this approach will showcase that a wizard can be extremely dangerous even if he misses!

I think that by making the sides even like this, you'll get a balanced report back. And that report, I imagine, will show very convincingly the point which you are trying to prove.

Regards

[Artanis]

As for Glitterdust, it's great but my DM thinks that anyone who needs a party to help kill isn't broken. My Beguiler in his last campaign was MVP for most of the time, disabling tons of enemies, yet he found nothing that needed nerfing. Yet give a Warblade the ability to make 2 full-round attacks, and suddenly the world ends.

If this is the case, then I suspect that even a ridiculously broken batman caster won't do a d*** thing to change your DM's mind. Probably the only way to "win" this sort of contest is to out-Warblade the Warblade. What's more, you'll have to do it under the constraints that douglas outlined above.

Of course, one big problem I notice is that even if you do win, you won't be proving that ToB is non-broken, you'll just be proving that casters are broken. You're liable to wind up with ToB and whatever casters and/or tricks you use on the banned list.

About the best solution I can think of is to try to get the DM to let you use ToB for a few sessions as a "trial run", and go easy on the badassery to try to show him that it's possible play a ToB character without destroying the campaign.

[Myrmex]

Right, and he still has to be able to cast them. If he loses initiative and gets hit he'll likely die. And if he survives the melee damage (unlikely if it's a reasonably strong meleer with a 2 handed weapon, using a maneuver and Punishing Stance), he's still got to cast defensively or something.

It's a lot of rock-paper-scissors. Yes, the wizard could stop the warblade. Yes, the warblade could pound the wizard. It depends on how it plays out.

Assuming no prep work, and starting within range of each other, a melee character at low level can do a good job on a caster. If the caster goes first, he has a good chance of disabling the melee. If the melee goes first, he has a good chance of disabling the caster. Taking a specialist wizard is fine, cute and all that.

You want a specific counter for the grey-elf?

Warblade or swordsage, using Diamond Mind maneuvers. Among your choices, pick Moment of Perfect Mind and Action Before Thought. Starting Con of 16 or so? 6 ranks of Concentration, +3 Con bonus, and skill focus (concentration) for +3; maybe even a concentration boosting item for +2. That's a solid +14 concentration check that he can use in place of his Reflex or Will saves, making a DC 18 on a 4. You want to get into flaws, traits, racial bonuses, etc.? Make him a Desert Orc, for more Con, take the Focused Trait. Yay, another +2 to the check!

Give him a Spiked Chain or something, so he can attack from 5' and threaten at 10. That way the wizard can't 5' step. Or just a polearm and spiked armour.

Two can play the "make up a scenario" game. If the warblade goes first he runs up and splatters wizard. If the wizard goes first he casts, 85%-95% of the time the warblade makes his save, and comes and kills the wizard on his turn.

There's little point to the "I can make up a scenario" approach. Hence hiding all this in a spoiler tag, as no doubt otherwise someone will respond with how this Diamond Mind guy could be beaten. Wizards are vulnerable to many things - being grappled, readied actions to attack when they cast, damage on their tiny little d4 hit dice... just like melee guys have their weaknesses.

That's all very nice, but if you had bothered to read the OP, this isn't about PVP.

[TheThan]

We don't alliow Arcane Thesis to reduce a metamagic below 0. So a +0 meta would still only offer +0, not -1.

As for Glitterdust, it's great but my DM thinks that anyone who needs a party to help kill isn't broken. My Beguiler in his last campaign was MVP for most of the time, disabling tons of enemies, yet he found nothing that needed nerfing. Yet give a Warblade the ability to make 2 full-round attacks, and suddenly the world ends.
Wait, if your DM is looking at shear damage output, then he’s missing the point behind what makes casters “broken”. Knowing this, it seems to me that your best bet is to simply show him how wizards can circumvent encounters, without defeating them. Such as gaseous form allowing someone to pass through an unmovable gate, or fly getting the heroes across a platform maze.

Spells like fly, Teleport, web, suggestion, gaseous form, charm monster, geas, polymorph etc.

[Frosty]

Wait, if your DM is looking at shear damage output, then he’s missing the point behind what makes casters “broken”. Knowing this, it seems to me that your best bet is to simply show him how wizards can circumvent encounters, without defeating them. Such as gaseous form allowing someone to pass through an unmovable gate, or fly getting the heroes across a platform maze.

Spells like fly, Teleport, web, suggestion, gaseous form, charm monster, geas, polymorph etc.

The DM has no problem with those. He expects wizards to do that (although he believes that wizards needing scrolls to learn spells is a significant downside). He thinks that ToBers are...TOO versatile *shudder* within the role of physical combatants. He's all like, "They can damage AND a status effect or damage AND healing? And look at Greater Insightful strike. now you can dump all of your money in armor and pump AC and still do horrible amount of damage oh no so unbalancing!"

[Roderick_BR]

Right, and he still has to be able to cast them. If he loses initiative and gets hit he'll likely die. And if he survives the melee damage (unlikely if it's a reasonably strong meleer with a 2 handed weapon, using a maneuver and Punishing Stance), he's still got to cast defensively or something.

A core fighter with only power attack and improved initiative, and (deity forbid) weapon focus/specialization, could kill that same wizard in one round. Should core fighters be banned?

[Tar Palantir]

If you just want damage output, make a sorcerer with Arcane Thesis (Fireball or Delayed Blast Fireball), Energy Admixture, Versatile Spellcaster, Searing Spell, Practical Metamagic (Admixture), etc. to sling around 20-30d6 Fireballs that still do half damage to things immune to fire, at no cost. I had a six month campaign that consisted almost entirely of the following.

Me: You enter the room.
Player: SUPER FIREBALL!
Me: Everything dies.

Not even close to the brokenness casters can achieve, but it might offend your DM enough to make him see the terrible power of spellcasters.

[Nohwl]

I take it he's running a formal test for you, with your party having casters in place of his party's ToB characters?

I can think of two different approaches you might try to go for here:
1) Go overkill and demonstrate just how thoroughly broken casters can be.
2) Make powerful but not overtly broken characters that don't rely too much on any one thing.


overkill is fun, you should go for it.

[FinalJustice]

Ubercharge the crap out of him.

Seriously. Picture. He feels ToB is overpowered because it's 'too versatile for a melee'. Fine, he's the DM and he thinks melees should not be 'too versatile'. Hence, make non versatile melees, overspecialize. Roll up something that can obliterate CR appropriate monsters in 1 round. Make sure you have contingencies for main weaknesses (a way to teleport, fly, some healing) through items. Maybe seeing a damn ubercharger hack through his encounters and having to work around it changes his perspective on how melees should be.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Batman Wizard.

Sudden Maximize Time Stop + 5x Delayed Blast Fireballs. Time starts, blows up all ToBers (except maybe the Swordsage), then Forcecage + DimLock + Cloudkill the Swordsage. Use DimDoor and Overland Flight to keep out of reach.

A single level 20 Wizard, CORE, beats a whole party of ToB. Have a nice day.

[Riffington]

So fundamentally, a bunch of you are making good points. Optimized casters are much more powerful than ToBers. Optimized uberchargers probably are too. And if anything, showing that an ubercharger can go toe to toe with a ToBer (or with the monsters) may be more helpful than showing that Cindy can burninate them all.

But, this assumes optimized characters. As Nero points out, that's not true for all campaigns. The thing about ToB characters is that you don't need to cheese them out to make them powerful. They're good without any of that, and thus surpass the power level of a low-powered game. If that's what he wants to run, then he should get rid of them. But that may not be what he's actually running - he may just have an inflated opinion of what the ToB character can really do.

[Frosty]

If you just want damage output, make a sorcerer with Arcane Thesis (Fireball or Delayed Blast Fireball), Energy Admixture, Versatile Spellcaster, Searing Spell, Practical Metamagic (Admixture), etc. to sling around 20-30d6 Fireballs that still do half damage to things immune to fire, at no cost. I had a six month campaign that consisted almost entirely of the following.

Me: You enter the room.
Player: SUPER FIREBALL!
Me: Everything dies.

Not even close to the brokenness casters can achieve, but it might offend your DM enough to make him see the terrible power of spellcasters.

I like Practical metamagic, but I don't think a sorcerer gets enough feats to do all of that. You need to take a feat just be to Dragonblooded in the first place. And what to do at level 11? Only 4 feats so far.

[RTGoodman]

Quick question, just to be sure - your DM is running ToBers correctly, right? As in, the warblade you mentioned that "soloed 5 vampires" was getting maneuvers at the correct rate and level, right?

I know a lot of folks have said that they thought ToB was overpowered originally because they thought you got 1st-level maneuvers at 1st level, 2nd level maneuvers at 2nd level, and so on, instead of 1st level ones at 1st, 2nd levels ones at 3rd, 3rd level ones at 5th, etc.

[Frosty]

Quick question, just to be sure - your DM is running ToBers correctly, right? As in, the warblade you mentioned that "soloed 5 vampires" was getting maneuvers at the correct rate and level, right?

I know a lot of folks have said that they thought ToB was overpowered originally because they thought you got 1st-level maneuvers at 1st level, 2nd level maneuvers at 2nd level, and so on, instead of 1st level ones at 1st, 2nd levels ones at 3rd, 3rd level ones at 5th, etc.

Dunno. That encounter was run by another DM, and my current DM was only observing. Again, I believe my DM has an overinflated opinion of ToBers. He thinks it takes too much work to re-design encounters around a ToBers instead of a standard Fighter type. I just don't think he has seen others run encounters correctly.

[Dark_Scary]

I like Practical metamagic, but I don't think a sorcerer gets enough feats to do all of that. You need to take a feat just be to Dragonblooded in the first place. And what to do at level 11? Only 4 feats so far.

You just be a spellscale and get auto dragonblooded.

[Faulty]

He thinks it takes too much work to re-design encounters around a ToBers instead of a standard Fighter type.

He does realize that Crusaders are the only martial adepts with ranged capabilities outside of thrown weapons, right? And, except for Bladestorm Blades usign certain maneuvers, none of the maneuvers can be used at range? ToB character will whipe the floor with weaker melee types, why doesn't he just toss in some ranged attackers or flying attackers?

[VirOath]

Well, I was going to suggest an Ur-Priest build, but I think that's BoVD, so it's out.

But since Races of stone is in, take a look at Shadowcraft Mage PrC. And to prove a point, read the following guide and do it on a Sorc (Seriously, it breaks the spell casting rules into itty bitty pieces, jumps on them, sets them on fire, then grinds them down, with chainsaws, enchanted with Flaming Burst)


http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=655556

Okay, for a quick run down. This isn't mine at all, not by a long shot, but it's likely more broken than Wizard/Incatcheese.

You turn the Image spells into a Conjuration (Creation/Summoning) or Evocation spells of one level lower. Toss in Earth Spell, which is when you use Heighten Spell to boost a spell to the highest spell slot you can cast it counts as a Spell Level above that, and costs two less (Upping a silent image to 9th makes it a 10th by Earth spell, and costs an 8th spell slot. Shadow Mage makes that 10th level spell mimic a 9th level Wiz/Sorc. it is a 10th level spell for all effects and saves, as well as being 10% per spell level real, so 100%, the will save is pointless now.)

But you aren't really casting them. It is really the image spell being used to be an illusion of another spell. So no costly material cost, or EXP cost, even if the spell has them!

Since they are still illusion spells, and count as Shadow Conjurations/Evocations, they gain a will save to them, save means they only take the % of the spell that is real (Which is possible to amp beyond 100%), they are Auto-maximized in an area counted as the Shadow Plane, and they allow SR. And they can be counterspelled with the image spell used only, unless it's a dispell magic.

Now, to break the casting system completely.
Arcane Disciple (luck): All right. You’ve managed to get your character to mimic ninth level spells, but you’re still chafing at something. You can only mimic all the spells from one and a half schools. How unfair is that? Miracle is an evocation spell. If only it were on the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list, then we could mimic it and thereby mimic any spell of seventh level or lower. Well, it’s time to shatter the game and stomp on its remains, cackling in a little, gnomish soprano.

(i) A spell is a sorcerer or wizard spell if and only if it is on the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list.
(ii) Arcane Disciple adds the spells on the selected domain list to "your class spell list."
(iii) For a Sorcerer or Wizard character, "your class spell list" refers to the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list.
(iv) By (ii) and (iii), Arcane Disciple (luck) adds, for you, miracle to the Sorcerer/Wizard list (for a Wizard or Sorcerer).
(v) By (i) and (iv) miracle becomes a sorcerer or wizard spell, for you.

Simple enough. Now let's analyze what that means to the Shadowcraft Mage.

When using a shadow conjuration or shadow evocation spell (or Shadow Illusion) to mimic a given spell, the mimicked spell is not actually cast. For example, a mimicked summon monster spell does not actually summon a monster; rather, you create a quasi-real illusion of the effect using material from the plane of shadow. Likewise, a mimicked forcecage does not actually cast the spell and neither does it evoke any real energy, instead forming an illusory cage of shadow stuff.

Extending this to a mimicked miracle, we note that we are not actually calling for deific intercession - or, indeed, any divine intercession - we are simply creating a quasi-real illusion of the spell's effect from shadow stuff. So here's the thing: there is nothing preventing us from creating an illusion of miracle's greater effects through Shadow Illusion. The spell is capable of greater things than mimicking spells of lower than 9th level, and since what we are casting is not actually the spell, just an illusion of it, we are not limited by deity or alignment review.

Only choose this feat if you’re on very good terms with your DM, and he knows what’s in store.


Now to make your DM cry.
Residual Magic: One of the problems a spellcaster faces is his limited number of high-level spell slots. You have all sorts of fun blasting away with your eigth- and ninth-level slots, only to be left with piddling, low-level slots for the rest of the day. Residual Metamagic could be the answer to your prayers.

How does it work? By casting a spell modified by a metamagic feat in one round, one can apply metamagic feat to a spell in the next round, but with one benefit: the metamagic causes no adjustment to the level of the spell slot required to cast the spell.

So in the case of the Killer Gnome, he casts a silent image heightened to tenth level in a ninth level slot. The next round he does the same thing, but this time that tenth level silent image occupies only a first (or cantrip, for certain illusionists) level slot! He could even load up on other metamagics the second round. These would, of course, adjust the level of the required spell slot as normal, but with eight levels of metamagic to play with, a lot of things are possible. How does a Twinned, Repeated crushing fist of spite sound to you, maybe further maximized via a metamagic rod? I thought so.

Yeah, able to use 1st/0 level spells as max level, able to cast Miracle without any repercussions or cost, opening the door to all sorts of magic item creation cheese. The only thing that really makes this better is tossing in levels of Incantcheese for squeezing even more into it.

ToB overpowered? Hardly.

[Faulty]

Ur-Priest is in CD.

[ashmanonar]

He does realize that Crusaders are the only martial adepts with ranged capabilities outside of thrown weapons, right? And, except for Bladestorm Blades usign certain maneuvers, none of the maneuvers can be used at range? ToB character will whipe the floor with weaker melee types, why doesn't he just toss in some ranged attackers or flying attackers?

Swordsages, dependent on build, have multiple ranged capabilities (often touch attacks.)

[Jayabalard]

One of my friends wants to ban Tome of Battle after having played it in one camapign himself nad having witnessed it played in 3 campaigns, saying they break the game. Yet, he doesn't want to ban spellcasters. I need your help to prove to him that casters break campaigns a lot more than Tome of Battle characters do.None of this necessarily says to me that he thinks that TOB characters are more powerful than Casters... quite a few people are much more forgiving of magic using classes being broken than they are non magic using classes.

[Frosty]

Well, I was going to suggest an Ur-Priest build, but I think that's BoVD, so it's out.

But since Races of stone is in, take a look at Shadowcraft Mage PrC. And to prove a point, read the following guide and do it on a Sorc (Seriously, it breaks the spell casting rules into itty bitty pieces, jumps on them, sets them on fire, then grinds them down, with chainsaws, enchanted with Flaming Burst)


http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=655556

Okay, for a quick run down. This isn't mine at all, not by a long shot, but it's likely more broken than Wizard/Incatcheese.

You turn the Image spells into a Conjuration (Creation/Summoning) or Evocation spells of one level lower. Toss in Earth Spell, which is when you use Heighten Spell to boost a spell to the highest spell slot you can cast it counts as a Spell Level above that, and costs two less (Upping a silent image to 9th makes it a 10th by Earth spell, and costs an 8th spell slot. Shadow Mage makes that 10th level spell mimic a 9th level Wiz/Sorc. it is a 10th level spell for all effects and saves, as well as being 10% per spell level real, so 100%, the will save is pointless now.)

But you aren't really casting them. It is really the image spell being used to be an illusion of another spell. So no costly material cost, or EXP cost, even if the spell has them!

Since they are still illusion spells, and count as Shadow Conjurations/Evocations, they gain a will save to them, save means they only take the % of the spell that is real (Which is possible to amp beyond 100%), they are Auto-maximized in an area counted as the Shadow Plane, and they allow SR. And they can be counterspelled with the image spell used only, unless it's a dispell magic.

Now, to break the casting system completely.
Arcane Disciple (luck): All right. You’ve managed to get your character to mimic ninth level spells, but you’re still chafing at something. You can only mimic all the spells from one and a half schools. How unfair is that? Miracle is an evocation spell. If only it were on the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list, then we could mimic it and thereby mimic any spell of seventh level or lower. Well, it’s time to shatter the game and stomp on its remains, cackling in a little, gnomish soprano.

(i) A spell is a sorcerer or wizard spell if and only if it is on the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list.
(ii) Arcane Disciple adds the spells on the selected domain list to "your class spell list."
(iii) For a Sorcerer or Wizard character, "your class spell list" refers to the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list.
(iv) By (ii) and (iii), Arcane Disciple (luck) adds, for you, miracle to the Sorcerer/Wizard list (for a Wizard or Sorcerer).
(v) By (i) and (iv) miracle becomes a sorcerer or wizard spell, for you.

Simple enough. Now let's analyze what that means to the Shadowcraft Mage.

When using a shadow conjuration or shadow evocation spell (or Shadow Illusion) to mimic a given spell, the mimicked spell is not actually cast. For example, a mimicked summon monster spell does not actually summon a monster; rather, you create a quasi-real illusion of the effect using material from the plane of shadow. Likewise, a mimicked forcecage does not actually cast the spell and neither does it evoke any real energy, instead forming an illusory cage of shadow stuff.

Extending this to a mimicked miracle, we note that we are not actually calling for deific intercession - or, indeed, any divine intercession - we are simply creating a quasi-real illusion of the spell's effect from shadow stuff. So here's the thing: there is nothing preventing us from creating an illusion of miracle's greater effects through Shadow Illusion. The spell is capable of greater things than mimicking spells of lower than 9th level, and since what we are casting is not actually the spell, just an illusion of it, we are not limited by deity or alignment review.

Only choose this feat if you’re on very good terms with your DM, and he knows what’s in store.


Now to make your DM cry.
Residual Magic: One of the problems a spellcaster faces is his limited number of high-level spell slots. You have all sorts of fun blasting away with your eigth- and ninth-level slots, only to be left with piddling, low-level slots for the rest of the day. Residual Metamagic could be the answer to your prayers.

How does it work? By casting a spell modified by a metamagic feat in one round, one can apply metamagic feat to a spell in the next round, but with one benefit: the metamagic causes no adjustment to the level of the spell slot required to cast the spell.

So in the case of the Killer Gnome, he casts a silent image heightened to tenth level in a ninth level slot. The next round he does the same thing, but this time that tenth level silent image occupies only a first (or cantrip, for certain illusionists) level slot! He could even load up on other metamagics the second round. These would, of course, adjust the level of the required spell slot as normal, but with eight levels of metamagic to play with, a lot of things are possible. How does a Twinned, Repeated crushing fist of spite sound to you, maybe further maximized via a metamagic rod? I thought so.

Yeah, able to use 1st/0 level spells as max level, able to cast Miracle without any repercussions or cost, opening the door to all sorts of magic item creation cheese. The only thing that really makes this better is tossing in levels of Incantcheese for squeezing even more into it.

ToB overpowered? Hardly.

Crap, I knew I forgot something. In his campaign world, gnomes and halflings don't exist. Dislikes them for some reason.

[Lycanthromancer]

You might want to point out that houseruling something to make it not broken doesn't mean it isn't broken in the first place, if that's an issue.

[Frosty]

You might want to point out that houseruling something to make it not broken doesn't mean it isn't broken in the first place, if that's an issue.

I totally agree. He does too, and then points at Iron Heart Surge as proof of ToB broken-ness. I can't seem to convince him that it's just like pointing at Shivering Touch and saying casters are overpowered.

[VirOath]

Hehehe, then take the Stoneblessed PrC first then. You can enter at 2nd, and be out by 5th, letting you get into a racial PrC by 6th as normal.

And thanks for the correction for the Ur-Priest ^_^

The Ultimate Lock build, twisting to the extreme!

The Eldritch TheUr-Lock by NatchFeral

Warlock 9/Ur-Priest 2/Eldritch Disciple 9
Abilities:
Invocations as Warlock 18 (2 Dark Invocations)
Cleric Spells as Ur-Priest 10 (9th level cleric spells)
Rebuke Undead
BAB +13
Saves: +6/+6/+15

Another WTF causing build. To bad Weapons of Legacy isn't allowed in the game, that would make Hellfire Warlock insane, though you still wouldn't have access to the cheese to get around the con damage.

[with an e]

I would suggest that you go for mundane and obvious stacking of badly created mechanics rather than any mechanics that relies on a specific interpretation of a description. A simple pure class druid works well enough. To use the shadow illusion scheme as an example:


You don’t so much cast a miracle as request one. You state what you would like to have happen and request that your deity (or the power you pray to for spells) intercede.
"The effect of Miracle is to request divine intervention." A DM who is more sadistic would further say "Since the arcane caster does not pray to a power, Miracle does nothing at all."

[Dark_Scary]

I would suggest that you go for mundane and obvious stacking of badly created mechanics rather than any mechanics that relies on a specific interpretation of a description. A simple pure class druid works well enough. To use the shadow illusion scheme as an example:


"The effect of Miracle is to request divine intervention." A DM who is more sadistic would further say "Since the arcane caster does not pray to a power, Miracle does nothing at all."

Except of course, no one cares if you can't use Miracle, because you can still cast 9th level 140% real spells from 0th level slots, spontaneously.

[Artanis]

Since he only seems to respect damage, what about Initiate of the Seven-fold Veil? It's in Complete Arcane and supposed to be nearly impossible to kill (from what I've heard, at least, since I have zero personal experience with it). Shoehorn as much blasting as you can fit into the entry requirements and see if you can't get an unkillable death-dispenser to make a mockery of the Warblade.

[VirOath]

And, it's only an illusion of the effect, mixed with enough pieces of the plane of shadow to make it partly, or in this case, completely real.

It isn't casting Miracle, it is mimicking it. Only producing the end result. It's clear by RAW, for me atleast. It's only an Illusion, just a real one. If someone tries counterspelling it with the same image spell you used, it goes poof. But that's only during casting, since the spell is able to influence the real world, things immune to mind effecting spells automatically make their will save so only take the %, which is 100% effectiveness.

Further explanation: When using a shadow conjuration or shadow evocation spell (or Shadow Illusion) to mimic a given spell, the mimicked spell is not actually cast. For example, a mimicked summon monster spell does not actually summon a monster; rather, you create a quasi-real illusion of the effect using material from the plane of shadow. Likewise, a mimicked forcecage does not actually cast the spell and neither does it evoke any real energy, instead forming an illusory cage of shadow stuff.

[Draz74]

The DM has no problem with those. He expects wizards to do that (although he believes that wizards needing scrolls to learn spells is a significant downside). He thinks that ToBers are...TOO versatile *shudder* within the role of physical combatants. He's all like, "They can damage AND a status effect or damage AND healing? And look at Greater Insightful strike. now you can dump all of your money in armor and pump AC and still do horrible amount of damage oh no so unbalancing!"

Sounds like someone needs to read about the TippyVerse. :smallamused:

And any martial adept who uses a crappy weapon just because he's expecting to Greater Insightful Strike all the time is an idiot. For one thing, he still needs to actually hit to deal damage. For another ... maneuvers can't be spammed every round. Your DM knows that part, right? :smallsigh:

[TheThan]

The DM has no problem with those. He expects wizards to do that (although he believes that wizards needing scrolls to learn spells is a significant downside). He thinks that ToBers are...TOO versatile *shudder* within the role of physical combatants. He's all like, "They can damage AND a status effect or damage AND healing? And look at Greater Insightful strike. now you can dump all of your money in armor and pump AC and still do horrible amount of damage oh no so unbalancing!"

Honestly I was sort of afraid that would be the case.

I would point out the cleric and druid. Both of these classes can do all that you just described and more.

So I would just play a standard druid and own everything you encounter. Bring a wolf animal companion and flank and trip EVERYTHING. Then when you get wild shape, start summoning more wolves and then wild shape into a wolf. Congratulations, you just turned yourself into a wolf pack. You’ll force so many AOOs that the DM should put a stop to it real fast. If he throws something at you that can’t be tripped (like say monstrous spiders), no sweat, you don’t even have to use that tactic. You can just buff up with magic fang, bull’s strength and enlarge person then wild shape into a bear and eat the things you can’t trip. Or just drop an entangle on it and sit back and pew pew it with your trusty sling. Or you know call some lightening on it, drop a flaming sphere… you have options. If you start getting hurt, just start casting heal spells. (you can spontaneously summon the wolves you know).
Hell hath no fury like Mother Nature scorn.

Now for the cleric, its just as easy.
I would just go for some simple divine metamagic. That way you can throw up a Divine favor or divine power all day and smash the crap out of anything. Combo it with magic weapon and any other fitting buffs you can think of. You can throw out blindness/deafness, bestow curse, bane, doom etc and do the exact same stuff that TOB classes do. Oh yeah, did I mention you can heal AND control enemies with spells like command and Enthrall.


It’s late and I’m growing tired so I’ll write up a thing on wizards and sorcerers later.

[with an e]

It isn't casting Miracle, it is mimicking it. Only producing the end result. It's clear by RAW, for me atleast. It's only an Illusion, just a real one. If someone tries counterspelling it with the same image spell you used, it goes poof. But that's only during casting, since the spell is able to influence the real world, things immune to mind effecting spells automatically make their will save so only take the %, which is 100% effectiveness.

Further explanation: When using a shadow conjuration or shadow evocation spell (or Shadow Illusion) to mimic a given spell, the mimicked spell is not actually cast. For example, a mimicked summon monster spell does not actually summon a monster; rather, you create a quasi-real illusion of the effect using material from the plane of shadow. Likewise, a mimicked forcecage does not actually cast the spell and neither does it evoke any real energy, instead forming an illusory cage of shadow stuff.

Whether you cast miracle is irrelevant, since casting miracle has only a single effect: Put a request to a power. The subsequent consequences are the results of the action of the deity, not the effect of the spell. In the most favorable RAW interpretation, you create a % real shadow power, but since it has to be a power you pray to, which is none for an arcane caster, a shadow miracle still has no effect.

[Dark_Scary]

Whether you cast miracle is irrelevant, since casting miracle has only a single effect: Put a request to a power. The subsequent consequences are the results of the action of the deity, not the effect of the spell. In the most favorable RAW interpretation, you create a % real shadow power, but since it has to be a power you pray to, which is none for an arcane caster, a shadow miracle still has no effect.

No, the most favorable and most obvious interpretation is that you create the effect your deity would create if you cast the spell. Because you create a shadow effect. Not a shadow power.

[with an e]

No, the most favorable and most obvious interpretation is that you create the effect your deity would create if you cast the spell. Because you create a shadow effect. Not a shadow power.
The bold part is an admission that effects listed under miracle such as "duplicate any level 8 or lower spell" are not the effects of miracle but the effects of the action of the deity or power that receives the request of miracle. By this logic, a shadow miracle does not duplicate the actions of the deity, because it is not an effect of miracle.

[Oslecamo]

The bold part is an admission that effects listed under miracle such as "duplicate any level 8 or lower spell" are not the effects of miracle but the effects of the action of the deity or power that receives the request of miracle. By this logic, a shadow miracle does not duplicate the actions of the deity, because it is not an effect of miracle.

By this logic, you're really just stretching and twisting the rules to your liking at this point. Shaddowcraft mage simly fails to do all of that if your DM has the balls to question your cheesy interpretation of the rules and follow a more sane reading.

Like the fact that shaddow illusion clearly says it's based on the level of the illusion spell, not of the spell being affected by metamagic or other tricks.

Or that earths spell only applies when you're already casting the spell and it's too late to change what you want it to be.

But that's D&D "optimization" for you. If a rule isn't 100% clear, then the most brokenest interpretation of it will be the correct one of course.

[VirOath]

By this logic, you're really just stretching and twisting the rules to your liking at this point. Shaddowcraft mage simly fails to do all of that if your DM has the balls to question your cheesy interpretation of the rules and follow a more sane reading.

Like the fact that shaddow illusion clearly says it's based on the level of the illusion spell, not of the spell being affected by metamagic or other tricks.

Or that earths spell only applies when you're already casting the spell and it's too late to change what you want it to be.

But that's D&D "optimization" for you. If a rule isn't 100% clear, then the most brokenest interpretation of it will be the correct one of course.

The whole Miracle cheese, yes. As a DM I wouldn't allow it to touch the ground. But it's like having a monster with Miracle as spell like ability with no god it prays to. It desires an effect, so the magic does the work since there is no divine entity to say no. Now, this wouldn't have a Divine Rank put behind it, so it would be much more limited in the open end (So it can't make artifacts). And anything too far would attract the attention of other gods, a since this offers no protect to Divine Ranks or ways to get them, your doomed. Again, it could be ruled that it is creating the effect of the request, and as long as it is within the realm of mortal magic, the magic can perform because otherwise it is just a prayer and any effect it does would be allowed by any cleric of a god so long as they were willing to pay the price. She was asking for the most broken things you could come up with as a caster, and that qualifies.

And the second part, your wrong. Heighten Spell Metamagic doesn't use a higher spell slot, it casts as a higher level spell. You use this to increase the saves of the spell since it increases the level. You use this to get around effects like Mantle of Invulnerability, turning lower level spells into high enough ones to not be affected. It is the ONLY Metamagic that does this, it's the purpose of the bloody thing!


Heighten Spell [Metamagic]
Benefit

A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level). Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies. All effects dependent on spell level (such as saving throw DCs and ability to penetrate a lesser globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the heightened level. The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level.

Earth spell takes it a step farther. Yes, you have to pick the spell you are casting before you apply metamagic to it, but Earth Spell would apply at the same time Heighten does. All magic alterations would occur during the cast, before you choose the end result. Freezing Sphere is a good example of this, it has multiple functions and you can apply metamagic to it before you choose the function, since a wizard normally has to prepare it with the metamagic at the start of the day, but chooses the function when he casts.

So that's one argument that's faulted, otherwise wizards would have to pick the exact way they would use Telekinesis when they memorized it.

And as you said, it uses the effective spell level for shadow illusion, not tied to the individual image spells. Since heighten spell and earth spell increases the effective level, and do so before you decide what to do with the spell, voila, 10th level images mimicking 9th level spells.

Now the second feat listed as making your DM cry, it allows you to cast that 10th level image spell from it's original spell slot. So now you can load it up with things that don't increase the effective level, but force it to be cast from a higher level spell slot, like maximized and empowered.

Now, is it balanced at all? Gods no. It's broken to the extreme and it's done with mixing the effects of different RAW feats and class features. Should a spell ever be allowed to be more than 100% real? No. Should Miracle be allowed to function like that? No. But it's what she asked for, and it's RAW, though definitely not RAI.

[Dark_Scary]

The bold part is an admission that effects listed under miracle such as "duplicate any level 8 or lower spell" are not the effects of miracle but the effects of the action of the deity or power that receives the request of miracle. By this logic, a shadow miracle does not duplicate the actions of the deity, because it is not an effect of miracle.

No, it's a clear indication of the need to talk about the effects of the spell differently then the effects of casting the spell. Which makes no ****ing sense cause there is no english way to differentiate those two.

You are casting a spell called "Miracle" the effect this spell has is to create a Miracle, that Miracle is an effect of the spell. It is also specifically performed by a deity. But it is still an effect of the spell.


Like the fact that shaddow illusion clearly says it's based on the level of the illusion spell, not of the spell being affected by metamagic or other tricks.


All effects dependent on spell level are calculated according to the heightened level.

I don't understand why some people try so hard to claim that every broken thing is just an interpretation. This is absolutely not an interpretation. You could put these terms into a computer in binary and (unlike 60% of D&D rules) it would output the exact percentage scaling that is used by everyone.

There are some things that are interpretations, Miracle is one of them. Shadowcraft Mage greater reality isn't one of them.

[VirOath]

Another problem with needing a Deity to use Miracle at all. It doesn't require a god in the first place, because clerics that do not worship a god can cast it.

And as a Cleric, you are not forced to pick a Deity, you can just pick two domains from the pool.

Edit: SRD is God

Deity, Domains, and Domain Spells

A cleric’s deity influences his alignment, what magic he can perform, his values, and how others see him. A cleric chooses two domains from among those belonging to his deity. A cleric can select an alignment domain (Chaos, Evil, Good, or Law) only if his alignment matches that domain.

If a cleric is not devoted to a particular deity, he still selects two domains to represent his spiritual inclinations and abilities. The restriction on alignment domains still applies.

Taking the Arcane Disciple pushes idea that the character does have spiritual inclinations at the very least without taking Cleric levels. And you don't need to be a Cleric to worship a god either ((Like my CN Wizard that worshiped Loki)).

[Myrmex]

Quibbling over Shadowcraft Mage is counterproductive. If you can take Warblade 20 and break the game, then you should be able to do the same with Wizard 20.

[KIDS]

Dunno. That encounter was run by another DM, and my current DM was only observing. Again, I believe my DM has an overinflated opinion of ToBers. He thinks it takes too much work to re-design encounters around a ToBers instead of a standard Fighter type. I just don't think he has seen others run encounters correctly.

I think that the question about this situation isn't so much whether he thinks ToB is overpowered, but whether he thinks Fighters/other melee are underpowered. To me and a lot of people, they are, and they needed a fix. Whether their replacement is fine turns out to be less important.

i.e. it's easy to have a natural idea that the melee fighting system is just fine and if he doesn't ever question it, content with the PHB classes, then everything is going to seem overpowered to him (including PrCs from all other books).

Myself, I'd just go with plain Wizard, maybe Loremaster/Archmage. You only need int/con/dex. Start low levels spamming sleep and color spray; at higher, switch to glitterdust, haste, solid fog and other instant-win spells (see some handbooks lying around, logicninja's and treantmonklvl20's). Due to not needing many abilities, your hit points will be comparable to a melee type's during the whole game, and running out of spells, the only thing that can make wizards seem not as overpowered, only happens at very low levels.

Again, if the DM takes this for granted just because the game "intended it like that", you have a lost cause no matter what you do. But you have the capability to make most encounters irrelevant in a round or two, which will forever be beyond the Warblade.

[with an e]

The whole Miracle cheese, yes. As a DM I wouldn't allow it to touch the ground. But it's like having a monster with Miracle as spell like ability with no god it prays to. It desires an effect, so the magic does the work since there is no divine entity to say no. Now, this wouldn't have a Divine Rank put behind it, so it would be much more limited in the open end (So it can't make artifacts). And anything too far would attract the attention of other gods, a since this offers no protect to Divine Ranks or ways to get them, your doomed. Again, it could be ruled that it is creating the effect of the request, and as long as it is within the realm of mortal magic, the magic can perform because otherwise it is just a prayer and any effect it does would be allowed by any cleric of a god so long as they were willing to pay the price. She was asking for the most broken things you could come up with as a caster, and that qualifies.
According to the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/Miracle.htm)

You don’t so much cast a miracle as request one. You state what you would like to have happen and request that your deity (or the power you pray to for spells) intercede.
The above sentence occurs at the beginning of the description and applies to all subsequent sections unless otherwise noted. The no exp cost section does not state that it is the magic of the miracle spell that performs the listed effects.


It doesn't require a god in the first place, because clerics that do not worship a god can cast it.
That a godless cleric can cast a spell does not imply no deity is used. Look at commune (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/commune.htm). "A cleric of no particular deity contacts a philosophically allied deity." Now look at lesser planar ally (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/planarAllyLesser.htm). "If you serve no particular deity, the spell is a general plea answered by a creature sharing your philosophical alignment." In each case, a substitute outsider intervener is used. Miracle provides no such substitute. RAW implies that a godless cleric casting miracle accomplishes nothing--except paying 5000 xp when making a request for an effect that normally costs xp.


She was asking for the most broken things you could come up with as a caster, and that qualifies.
The purpose of the thread is to prove that spellcasters are more broken than ToB features, not to find the most broken spellcaster build within the allowed books. Therefore, the spellcaster build needs only be more broken than a ToB based build to prove the point. The less a build would tempt the DM to go to the rulebooks and find an alternative interpretation, the more effective it would persuade the DM, provided that each build is more powerful than a ToB build.

[Dark_Scary]

RAW implies that a godless cleric casting miracle accomplishes nothing--except paying 5000 xp when making a request for an effect that normally costs xp.

You didn't even read your own freaking quote:

"(or the power you pray to for spells)"

A godless cleric gets miracles just like any other character casting Miracle.

[with an e]

You didn't even read your own freaking quote:

"(or the power you pray to for spells)"

A godless cleric gets miracles just like any other character casting Miracle.
Not relevant.

1. An arcane caster does not pray to a power for spells and therefore cannot ask a power for a miracle unless he is multiclassed into cleric. This is an explicit restriction of RAW as a result of the bold portion.

2. The crux of the argument is whether a. the spell miracle's effect is one of the listed effects or b. the spell miracle's effect is to request another to perform one of the effects listed. The former allows a shadow effect to duplicate the listed effects. The latter does not. Whether "another" is a deity, a power, a devil, or any other agent that is distinct from the caster is irrelevant.

[Lamech]

@with an e:

So your saying... the wizard needs to take a level of cleric? 'Cause then said wizard would have a power he prays to for spells. Also "request that your deity" doesn't say that the diety must be a spell granting one. A wizard can have a diety; non-clerics can become worshippers, and those worshippers are rather important when divine rank and the resting place of souls is brought up.

[Severedevil]

I need your help to prove to him that casters break campaigns a lot more than Tome of Battle characters do.

That sounds almost impossible, which is probably why you're only attempting to prove that a caster playing I Read The Internet To Ruin Your Tabletop Experience-style will render a much wider range of encounters trivial than a similar-level warblade.

Yes, a caster can enter every fight having won it four hours ago, and if your DM doesn't know that, he should probably find out. That doesn't mean casters will mess up his game more than powerhouse melee classes, unless his players actually do that with their casters.

[Alcopop]

Here's a not only very broken but very flashy sorcerer. if your DM gauges busted on a level of damage then this should work...


The Cannon
Go for Mark of the Dauntless + Mark of the Storm + Celerity + Energy Substitution (elec) + Born of the three thunders + whatever to chuck out *&$@!* loads of damage a round.


I.E. Cast greater arcane fusion twice with celerity (which now has no drawbacks) then use those to cast normal arcane fusions and chuck 8 sound lances at em for 80d8 damage (which you can empower for roughly 540ish damage) and 8 saves vs stun. (take a dip into Stormcaster and you can make it 16) half elec half sonic damage. and if they fail any stuns then 8 (or 16) saves v KD.

Or

Cast flame whip (energy sub to elec) and share with your familiar. then dismiss (on your self) and cast storm touch. Max and Empower both. you'll have two 15ft touch attacks that deal 148 damage (no save) every round. Your familiar delivers these making you free to move (though not cast) also each touch is 3 saves v stun (5 with SC)

Or

Cast 2 lightning rings in a round (with celerity) and share with your familiar. then do one of the above and shoot 8 free lighting bolts a round. each with one to two stuns. oh and adjacent creatures take 40d6 damage... In doubt? next round just cast more lightning rings!


Combine with lesser celerity and ruin delvers fortune and your damn hard to kill. (though you can only celerity once in a round) Something charges? lesser celerity, you get hit with ranged? 4d8+cha temp HP from ruins, fireballed? no problem, cha to ref and evasion from ruins, ect!

(I actually get away with playing this character too! though I play it "nice" and only bring out the big guns when I need to)

Hell even ignoring all the lightning theme stuff free celeritys are not hard to break!

[Dark_Scary]

Not relevant.

Do you read anything at all? I'm talking about Godless Clerics here. You were wrong about your statement. Godless Clerics can be granted Miracles. My correction is relevant to the quoted text.


1. An arcane caster does not pray to a power for spells and therefore cannot ask a power for a miracle unless he is multiclassed into cleric. This is an explicit restriction of RAW as a result of the bold portion.

1) I was not talking about Arcane.

2) As mentioned. Arcanes can have deities.


2. The crux of the argument is whether a. the spell miracle's effect is one of the listed effects or b. the spell miracle's effect is to request another to perform one of the effects listed. The former allows a shadow effect to duplicate the listed effects. The latter does not. Whether "another" is a deity, a power, a devil, or any other agent that is distinct from the caster is irrelevant.

The crux of the argument is that even if the Miracle is a request for a specific action, that action is still an effect of the spell.

[woodenbandman]

No. Do core wizard, no items. If you can't win against a no holds barred ToBer, you are making your wizard wrong.

My friend once challenged me to a 1v1 wizard vs ToBer, no items. I was like, sure. The battle never took place, but it was level 15 and here's what you do:

Middle Aged something or other.

Cast moment of prescience at the beginning of the day.

You win initiative with moment of prescience.
Quickened Dimensional Anchor. Forcecage. barred version.
IF he is a swordsage he will have the ability to teleport out. Oh wait, nope, he don't. He's in a forcecage and he's dimensional anchored.

Of course, your divinations will tell you whether or not he's a swordsage or warblade or crusader (you took ranks in Martial Lore, right?).

Once he's in a forcecage the battle's over. It's just a matter of Cloudkill after Cloudkill. Then when he's almost dead, heal him up, use a limited wish for divine power, cast polymorph to turn into a dragon, and kill him again. Wait for it... Once he's dead, you can direct damage his ass into oblivion with your 5th and lower level spells, which you fill with fireball.

Now there's some contention sometimes as to whether or not it's fair to cast buffs before hand. I say that this is a cop out and that a class is allowed to use any abilities at its disposal, because that is the definition of a class comparison. Anything else is slighted to the favor of one class or another.

EDIT: Despite, or, indeed, because it was deliciously suboptimal, I went with generalist wizard. The ToBer is likely vulnerable to a lot of stuff. Beware of the Iron Heart Surge, it can be used to end your forcecage. It is for this reason you prepare a plan for escape. Though more likely than not you've got mirror image and such up. Nobody takes Hearing the Air.

[Arbitrarity]

Dwenomerkeeper. Breaks the game SO HARD. Complete Divine Web Enhancement.

[JBento]

Iron Heart Surge can't end the forcecage, regardless of how you interpret the (somewhat inane) text of IHS. The Forcecage isn't affecting you, it affects an area that you happen to be in without actually doing anything to you (unlike fireball, which can do stuff to you).

[Artanis]

Here's a not only very broken but very flashy sorcerer. if your DM gauges busted on a level of damage then this should work...

FINALLY! I was starting to think that I was the only one who saw where Frosty said that the DM only cares about damage.


No. Do core wizard, no items. If you can't win against a no holds barred ToBer, you are making your wizard wrong.

Frosty said it is not PvP.




Edit: Addendum

Here's another idea: can you make the city bomb with the books available?

[Draco Dracul]

FINALLY! I was starting to think that I was the only one who saw where Frosty said that the DM only cares about damage.



Frosty said it is not PvP.




Edit: Addendum

Here's another idea: can you make the city bomb with the books available?

Ah, the city bomb a fourth level spell that could potentially kill every living thing in an 80 mile radius. That is cheese at its finest.

[Frosty]

True, but I doubt it'd convince my Dm that casters in GENERAL are broken. He'd probably ban that specific combination.

[monty]

Here's another idea: can you make the city bomb with the books available?

No, because the city bomb doesn't work. Unless you're talking about a different one than the one I'm thinking of, I guess.

[DragoonWraith]

True, but I doubt it'd convince my Dm that casters in GENERAL are broken. He'd probably ban that specific combination.
Well then the issue is probably that they're not. I mean, assuming by "in general", you mean "ever". There's no question that is quite possible to play a caster poorly and be quite weak. If the DM will ban anything that he thinks broken, then by default anything left won't be.

You might want to try to convince him that ToB characters are not broken, rather than the other way around.

[Dark_Scary]

No, because the city bomb doesn't work. Unless you're talking about a different one than the one I'm thinking of, I guess.

The Locate City Bomb. And it does work, it just does nothing if they make either save.

[monty]

The Locate City Bomb. And it does work, it just does nothing if they make either save.

No. Explosive Spell can't apply to Locate City, because it's not an appropriate shape. I think there was another problem, but I don't remember it off the top of my head.

[Dark_Scary]

No. Explosive Spell can't apply to Locate City, because it's not an appropriate shape. I think there was another problem, but I don't remember it off the top of my head.

"Explosive spell can only be applied to spells that allow reflex saves and affect an area."

"Area: 10 miles/level radius circle centered on you."

[monty]

"Explosive spell can only be applied to spells that allow reflex saves and affect an area."

I love how you conveniently failed to quote the very relevant part in the parentheses:

(a cone, cylinder, line, or burst)
Note that the area of Locate City is none of those things.

[Flickerdart]

You anti-Killer Gnome guys are so hung up on the Miracle's workings that you forget the important thing, which is that you're casting 9th level spells with 0th level spell slots. It doesn't matter what you do with them! They can be Meteor Swarms and it would still be broken.

[Faleldir]

Okay, I suppose I might as well say something constructive now that I've posted.

I'm not saying Iron Heart Surge isn't incredibly broken. By RAW, you can end the weak nuclear force if you want to. But because it takes a standard action, you are still vulnerable to mind-affecting stuff that makes you lose turns. It also doesn't work against instantaneous effects, nor does it reverse ability damage or negative levels. There are plenty of ways to disable a Warblade; they're just a bit more creative than Web+Glitterdust.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Yanno, people are thinking too hard...

Prove that a core caster can dish out more damage than a ToB? Easy.

Chain Disintegrate. Have a nice day. Might want to soften them up with some blastomancy first so that even if they make their save, they're dust. This requires no cheese at all, it's a 9th level spell.

Time Stop + x Delayed Blast Fireballs. If you want to go outside Core, go with Sudden Maximize for the Time Stop so you can drop 5 of them on anything you care to name. Energy Substitution/Admixture to change flavors to cover immunities. It's your very own Hellball that doesn't hurt you. Epic effect, but hardly cheese.

vs single target:

TIMESTOP
Dimension Lock
Cloudkill
Forcecage
???
profit
TIMESTOP ENDS

have fun taking Con damage every turn until you fall over dead

OR

Split Ray Empowered Enervation. plus Quickened Enervation. 2d4+2*1.5+1d4+1 negative levels. On average, 14 negative levels in one shot. Have a nice day. Even if your target doesn't instantly die from negative levels > HD, it is still nerfed to oblivion. It's not going to be casting/initiating anything relevant, because you've dropped the caster/initiator level so low that he can't get off anything decent (and, may I remind you, Iron Heart Surge is a 4th level maneuver, meaning you need to be IL8 to be able to use it, if you are under IL8, you can't IHS out of it, because you can no longer initiate the maneuver).

OR

Irresistable Dance (delivered via Spectral Hand or Reach Spell) + Timestop (5x DBF). Kaboom.

Mind you, these are not optimized strategies, these are ones that come (mostly) out of CORE. Meaning ANY sub-optimized full caster can use them, as long as they have the relevant feats, spells, and stats.

These aren't even as rude as it gets. I haven't gotten into PrC's yet, I haven't gone out of Core for spells, and the only feat I have suggested (Sudden Maximize) is merely optional.

These are all encounter-breaking spells, singly capable of dealing with a large number of ToB characters. With a single full arcane caster.

And when you run out of reality-altering magics, you simply hide in your Magnificent Love Shack Mansion until you get your spells back. And do it all over again.

[monty]

(and, may I remind you, Iron Heart Surge is a 4th level maneuver, meaning you need to be IL8 to be able to use it, if you are under IL8, you can't IHS out of it, because you can no longer initiate the maneuver).

4th level maneuvers only require IL 7. Also, IHS is a 3rd level maneuver, so it only needs IL 5. Doesn't change your main point, though, since that still means you'd have to be IL 19 on average to be able to use it afterward.

[Dark_Scary]

I love how you conveniently failed to quote the very relevant part in the parentheses:

Note that the area of Locate City is none of those things.

It's not an inclusive list. It's a set of examples.

Fireball isn't a cone, cylinder, line, or burst either, but it's the example spell.

Which is more likely, that it is a non inclusive list and fireball is an invalid target for explosive spell. Or that a spell need only have an area, and they felt like clarifying what kinds of things count as areas by listing some areas, and not all areas in the game?

by RAW and RAI anything with an area works.

[monty]

It's not an inclusive list. It's a set of examples.

Not as written. There's no "such as" or anything like that.


Fireball isn't a cone, cylinder, line, or burst either, but it's the example spell.

Yeah, because they've never made mistakes like that before. Take a look at the examples for about half the prestige classes ever written.


Which is more likely, that it is a non inclusive list and fireball is an invalid target for explosive spell. Or that a spell need only have an area, and they felt like clarifying what kinds of things count as areas by listing some areas, and not all areas in the game?

They're both errors, and I don't see why you should assume one over the other.


by RAW and RAI anything with an area works.

By RAW, it doesn't work. By RAI, you shouldn't be able to do the whole combo anyway, because it's horribly broken.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

It's not an inclusive list. It's a set of examples.

Fireball isn't a cone, cylinder, line, or burst either, but it's the example spell.

Which is more likely, that it is a non inclusive list and fireball is an invalid target for explosive spell. Or that a spell need only have an area, and they felt like clarifying what kinds of things count as areas by listing some areas, and not all areas in the game?

by RAW and RAI anything with an area works.

Actually, Fireball IS a burst...

[Tar Palantir]

Or, instead of Explosive Spell, use Fell Drain. Fewer feats, since no born of three thunders or energy sub, just snowcasting -> flash frost -> fell drain. Everything in 10 miles/caster level without cold resistance takes a negative level, no save. Cast once a round for two minutes, and every nonepic character without protections is dead.

[Lycanthromancer]

Look at glitterdust. Silent image. Minor/major creation. Shrink item. Metamagicked disintegrate. Reverse gravity + prismatic sphere. Dominate person/monster/whatever. Disjunction. Fabricate. Stone shape. Summon monster. Planar binding (any). Rope trick. Flesh to salt. Contingency. Blink. Clone. Simulacrum. Astral projection. Magnificent mansion. Alter self. Polymorph. Polymorph any object. Shapechange.

A bit of imagination can go a LOOOOONG way toward breaking the hell out of a game by level 1 and beyond.

I can come up with a number of breaking issues with all of those, if you'd like me to.

[Dark_Scary]

Actually, Fireball IS a burst...

"Area: 20-ft.-radius spread" (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fireball.htm)


Not as written. There's no "such as" or anything like that.

You don't need to say "such as" to be making a non inclusive list. All lists are non inclusive unless stated otherwise. Hell, by actual English grammar rules you can remove the entire parenthetical statement as unnecessary.

But I can see how following the actual rules might get in the way of you pissing on other peoples ideas, and we wouldn't want that.

Seriously, you think all parenthetical statements ever made are exhaustive lists of required qualifiers? Is that supposed to be a joke?

[Alcopop]

For all Tomb of Battles awesomeness warblades, swordsages and crusders are still basicly just glorified fighters.

So here's what you do,

Get your everyday batman wizard, combine with a halfway decent cleric and possibly a druid (for the complete set!) then buy a tower, Wizard scrys issue, cleric (Master of Shrouds maybe?) sends in 200 shadows to deal with it. and druid goes summon and buff crazy and they teleports in wave after wave of summoned fireshielded monsters. If worst comes to worst they can prep exactly what they need and greater teleport in invisable and flying tomorrow.

It's a low in cheese very effective combo. and it's too general for a GM to ban hammer (though he might say something about the shadows...)


Tome of battle can't compete with that kinda of minimal risk fighting, they still have to throw themselves into danger every combat, even if they're very very good at it.

[monty]

Ok, I can see you're just going to disagree with everything I say, so I'm done here.

[Artanis]

Look at glitterdust. Silent image. Minor/major creation. Shrink item. Metamagicked disintegrate. Reverse gravity + prismatic sphere. Dominate person/monster/whatever. Disjunction. Fabricate. Stone shape. Summon monster. Planar binding (any). Rope trick. Flesh to salt. Contingency. Blink. Clone. Simulacrum. Astral projection. Magnificent mansion. Alter self. Polymorph. Polymorph any object. Shapechange.

A bit of imagination can go a LOOOOONG way toward breaking the hell out of a game by level 1 and beyond.

I can come up with a number of breaking issues with all of those, if you'd like me to.

Unfortunately, at least half of those spells the DM doesn't care about. You could turn the Tarrasque into a drooling cripple with a free-action L0 spell, and he wouldn't bat an eye because it doesn't involve doing damage.

[Lycanthromancer]

Unfortunately, at least half of those spells the DM doesn't care about. You could turn the Tarrasque into a drooling cripple with a free-action L0 spell, and he wouldn't bat an eye because it doesn't involve doing damage.Then use shrink item + telekinesis. How many thousands of d6s do you have to do before something becomes 'overpowered'?

Plus, you can one-shot anything on a failed save; I don't see how this is less overpowering than dealing full hp + 10 to one-shot it using damage.

Seriously; which is more powerful, killing something outright, or dominating it? Not just taking it out of the fight, but making it fight for you?

Plus, it's fully feasible for a lvl 5-7 caster to cast 9th level spells, and easily. Alter self/polymorph + Assume Supernatural Ability = massive damage, save-or-not-and-still-die, and extra '1-up mushrooms' that lead to temporary invulnerability. Seriously, look at various outsiders (like the nightmare) and tell me why getting supernatural versions of level 9 spells (without AoOs or material components or XP costs) at levels below 10 isn't broken? Or why those same 9th level spells aren't busted even at high levels?

Dead is dead, whether from spell or steel; whether it's a handful of d6's or a failed save, one-shotting is one-shotting.

And barbarians can deal more damage than ToB'ers anyway.

[Talic]

If you want an example of a caster that doesn't go for broke, but maintains a solid power level?

Sorceror 9 / Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 7 / Archmage 4.

Warding ability of IotSV gives you staying power against most effects, and when combined with a moderate level of defenses, Mastery of elements (Archmage), the metamagic specialist variant sorceror, Practical Metamagic (Empower), Arcane Thesis (Orb of X)... That gives you Empowered Orbs of X, for any element, at no level increase. From there, pick good spells for no save, just suck (Waves of Fatigue / Exhaustion, Ray of Light-Spell Compendium, Glitterdust, Solid Fog, Etc), and good spells for each other save type., and you're solid. Make sure you have the basics (Disintegrate, Wall of Force, etc).

At level 14, you'll find Ironguard to give you good mileage. At 16? Superior Invisibility. This works both from a PvP and a PvE application. Just make sure to have some of your WBL for utility abilities, things that see common use, but aren't really level dependent.

[Zeful]

"Explosive spell can only be applied to spells that allow reflex saves and affect an area."

"Area: 10 miles/level radius circle centered on you."

A circle is not a three dimensional shape, thus when casting the locate city bomb the closest edge isn't the outermost limit of the spell, it's off-plane (assuming no cities in the sky this mean up). So everything in 80 miles from your location on a specific plane is thrown 1/32 of an inch into the air and takes two damage. Congratulations the spell does nothing.

[chiasaur11]

A circle is not a three dimensional shape, thus when casting the locate city bomb the closest edge isn't the outermost limit of the spell, it's off-plane (assuming no cities in the sky this mean up). So everything in 80 miles from your location on a specific plane is thrown 1/32 of an inch into the air and takes two damage. Congratulations the spell does nothing.

Nothing?

You can knock out a nice handful of commoners with that!

[Talic]

A circle is not a three dimensional shape, thus when casting the locate city bomb the closest edge isn't the outermost limit of the spell, it's off-plane (assuming no cities in the sky this mean up). So everything in 80 miles from your location on a specific plane is thrown 1/32 of an inch into the air and takes two damage. Congratulations the spell does nothing.

Let's look at the spell prior to adding the cheese to it.

By your interpretation, it should find cities only if they're on the exact plane you happen to be on?

Great, in order to get useful information, we have to be Archimedes.

[Xuincherguixe]

Everyone should be Archimedes.

[FMArthur]

In all honesty, it's not the 9th-level spells you should be demonstrating. Those can be incredibly broken but they are a distant threat in most campaigns. Show overpowered things that happen at regular levels and low levels. One example is Celerity, a 4th-level spell that lets you interrupt someone else's turn with whatever brutally disruptive effect you feel like. Shivering Touch, for being patently ridiculous in achieving instant paralysis on anything big. Tasha's Hideous Laughter, Glitterdust, and Alter Self are second level core spells that approach the power level of many classes' intended-to-be-impressive capstones. Even 'normal' spells like the various Invisibilities and Greater Magic Weapon, things that even unoptimized wizards pick up, are more useful than many classes' key features.

[Talic]

In all fairness, showcasing PrC's as a piece of useful added boost is a good thing.

Very little can overshadow the ability: "I'm a fullcaster. Suck it."

But many abilities complement it. IotSV, for example, provides the mage with quick defense options, to allow for more time to get off your effects. With the wall/sphere options, those protections can extend to the party. Is a 1-4/day ability on par with fullcasting? No. Is it a useful addition? Absolutely.

[Zeful]

Let's look at the spell prior to adding the cheese to it.

By your interpretation, it should find cities only if they're on the exact plane you happen to be on?

Great, in order to get useful information, we have to be Archimedes.

Hey, the spell says circle.

Besides it's an circle 80 miles wide, given the size of a city if there's one in that area the spell is bound to touch it. Regardless of it's position in real space to you (given allowances for terrain, which a wizard is capable of doing).

So in order to find a city, no you don't need to be Archimedes. In order to hit a reasonable percentage of the population in the aforementioned area with the LCB, yeah kinda.

[DragoonWraith]

Hey, the spell says circle.

Besides it's an circle 80 miles wide, given the size of a city if there's one in that area the spell is bound to touch it. Regardless of it's position in real space to you (given allowances for terrain, which a wizard is capable of doing).

So in order to find a city, no you don't need to be Archimedes. In order to hit a reasonable percentage of the population in the aforementioned area with the LCB, yeah kinda.
There are a lot of cases where D&D doesn't get units or shapes right. I mean, speeds are in units of feet. I can't tell you how much that confused me when I first started learning. I mean, yeah, they're feet/rnd, but they never use that unit (though they definitely should). I don't think it's valid to use the circle shape to specifically mean that it only works on a single horizontal plane. It would appear to me that cylindrical is really the shape they intend with the description given, though sphere makes a lot more sense no matter how you think about it.

[Artanis]

Whoo! One offhand comment and I spawn an entire tangent!

I feel as though I've reached some sort of milestone in my forum career for starting a tangent with doing so little and so inadvertantly :smallbiggrin:


Then use shrink item + telekinesis. How many thousands of d6s do you have to do before something becomes 'overpowered'?

Plus, you can one-shot anything on a failed save; I don't see how this is less overpowering than dealing full hp + 10 to one-shot it using damage.

I wasn't aware of that combo. That could work as one of the ways of showing brokenness.


Seriously; which is more powerful, killing something outright, or dominating it? Not just taking it out of the fight, but making it fight for you?

With the DM in question, dominating something is not broken. From what Frosty said, it sounds like he doesn't care if you completely negate an entire campaign if you can't actually instagib things by yourself.


Plus, it's fully feasible for a lvl 5-7 caster to cast 9th level spells, and easily. Alter self/polymorph + Assume Supernatural Ability = massive damage, save-or-not-and-still-die, and extra '1-up mushrooms' that lead to temporary invulnerability. Seriously, look at various outsiders (like the nightmare) and tell me why getting supernatural versions of level 9 spells (without AoOs or material components or XP costs) at levels below 10 isn't broken? Or why those same 9th level spells aren't busted even at high levels?
I agree with you that it's broken as hell, and never said otherwise. The polymorph stuff is part of the "half that the DM cares about" I mentioned. But if it doesn't single-handedly kill an enemy, the DM in question does not care.


Dead is dead, whether from spell or steel; whether it's a handful of d6's or a failed save, one-shotting is one-shotting.

And barbarians can deal more damage than ToB'ers anyway.

To repeat the part I'm going on about:


...but my DM thinks that anyone who needs a party to help kill isn't broken. (etc. etc. etc.)

So of the spells you mentioned, how many will let a Wizard single-handedly take down a CR+4 encounter? Not negate it, not trivialize it, but kill every single enemy all by himself? The DM apparently doesn't care how broken Rope Trick and MMM are because they won't let the Wizard single-handedly kill an entire encounter. Astral Projection? Enemies are still alive. Disjunction? Still alive. Glitterdust, Silent Image, Blink? Still alive.

THAT is the problem.

[hr]
At any rate, I still say that all of this won't get ToB allowed, it'll only get full casters banned. But hey, might as well help if I can.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

So the GM doesn't care if it isn't damage? Fine.

Play a Batman Wizard. Don't even bother to fully optimize yourself, just go Wizard 20.

Own every encounter. Period. Don't let the party have a chance to do anything. Short-circuit entire campaign plotlines by using spells (dominate the guy you need information from who wants you to go on a sub-quest to get it, Detect Thoughts to figure out a whodunnit murder mystery, etc...). Don't bother with Polycheeze, show him just how game-breaking all the other spells are.

Continue completely dominating the game, and make sure to point out how pointless you make the rest of the party (i.e. "Rogue? Who needs that? I've got Summon Monster for a trap springer and Knock for locks"). No matter the challenge, completely curb-stomp it. By yourself. While blocking the party from doing anything remotely useful.

If that won't convince your GM that casters are more broken than ToB, start looking for a different GM.

[Draco Dracul]

This reminds me of a debate at the height of the Edition Wars on this forum on whether magic and non-magic class should be balanced. I remember that many people argued that magic should be better just because it is magic. I think the problem with your DM is that he falls into this school of thought.

[Fiendish_Dire_Moose]

It's just DM xenophobia. The person obviously has their views on what's "not broken" in D&D. The only way to solve the problem is with talking, showing how strong wizards can be will probably only make them ban more books.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

It's just DM xenophobia. The person obviously has their views on what's "not broken" in D&D. The only way to solve the problem is with talking, showing how strong wizards can be will probably only make them ban more books.

Which is why you do it straight Core, which is kind of hard to ban.

[Fiendish_Dire_Moose]

Which is why you do it straight Core, which is kind of hard to ban.

Not when I'm involved! Quickly, to the Moose Cave! I have something glorious to show you.
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Get your mind out of the gutter.

[Frosty]

Which is why you do it straight Core, which is kind of hard to ban.

Straight Core is one of the most broken in my own opinion to be honest.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Which is why you do it straight Core, which is kind of hard to ban.Actually, a game with no core classes or races could be cool. 3 of the big 5 gone, no 2-level Fighter dip, no Monk or Ranger. No humans and no half-elves, it could be pretty good.

[The Glyphstone]

As long as you specify WHICH Core you're disallowing. Getting rid of the Big Three and the Grapple rules is good. Getting rid of Standard and Move actions, as well as the XP charts and WBL, not so much. :)

[Fiendish_Dire_Moose]

Actually 3.5 works really well if you just ban core classes. Everyone is pretty much on a similar power level.

[Lycanthromancer]

Straight-core is more broken than 80% of everything else available (and all the other broken stuff tends to be based on core, or makes core even moreso).

At level 1, sleep and color spray allows the wizard to kill virtually everything; just carry a scythe around and coup de grace everything, after you knock them out, which negates the rest of the party during a fight. Summon monster, summon nature's ally, an animal companion, or a riding dog (which a wizard can afford in short order) can effectively replace the party's meatshield while you destroy the competition from the sidelines. Knock and find traps negates the rogue outside of fights. Charm person negates the party face. And wizards are already the knowledge-monkeys of the group.

If the DM is dumb enough to think that only casters deserve to have anything shiny, or useful, or fun, then find a new DM.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Actually 3.5 works really well if you just ban core classes. Everyone is pretty much on a similar power level.That does sound a bit interesting...

There are still arcane casters: Beguilers, Warmages, and Dread Necros. ToB for your melee needs. Divine would be harder, though. Favored Soul just doesn't cut it, and Archivist is just plain broken, even moreso than Cleric.

Making a non-magical sneak-thief might be difficult, though... Swordsages don't come with Trapfinding, much less Open Locks.

[lsfreak]

... as well as the XP charts and WBL, not so much. :)
YMMV. CR is broken which means XP has to be made up to some extent anywho, and leveling is far too fast for many people.

After thinking about it a while longer, I'd agree with dominating the entire game, using core-only if possible. Make sure your party is in on it or people will get far too frustrated; make it a game between your party to see how long it takes for your DM to give in and call casters too powerful.

EDIT: Scouts get trapfinding for your nonmagic trapfinding needs.

[tyckspoon]

That does sound a bit interesting...

There are still arcane casters: Beguilers, Warmages, and Dread Necros. ToB for your melee needs. Divine would be harder, though. Favored Soul just doesn't cut it, and Archivist is just plain broken, even moreso than Cleric.

Making a non-magical sneak-thief might be difficult, though... Swordsages don't come with Trapfinding, much less Open Locks.

Archivist could work in a game without Core classes, actually- taking out the Cleric and Druid gets rid of Druid spells and the biggest source of domain spells, which are the primary culprits in the Archivist's "I do everything divine AND I have all the wizard's spells too!" thing. You'd still need to keep an eye on other weird sources of scrolls (high-level Warlocks probably being the most dangerous), but that's not any different than using an Archivist in a game with Core material. Or just roll with Favored Soul anyway- they're not that far behind the curve, especially if you change them to a single casting stat. There's also the Shugenja and Spirit Shaman for alternate Divine characters.

For skill-based characters, the Factotum has all your answers. Or you can go with Ninja, if you want to stay on the low-power part of the pool. Both are still at least partially mystical, however (but then, some of the Rogu's abilities have to be supernatural to work too, even if the game calls them Extraordinary.) But I would just remove the necessity of the Trapfinding feature and let anybody with a sufficient Search skill find traps.

[Talic]

Metamagic cheese wizard.

Using metamagic reducers, fire off a Maximized split twinned empowered orb of x

75 x 4 damage, give or take... for 300 total damage a cast. It's possible to get it in as low as a 4th level slot... 6-7th without Incantatrix.

[Dark_Scary]

and leveling is far too fast for many people.

WTF? Too fast? Are we even playing the same game?

[Olo Demonsbane]

Or you could do a scout for trapfinding.

Wu Jen is an alternative arcane caster.

The Spirit Shaman is a good alternative to a druid.


Hey, this might actually work!

If we take out core in general, that takes out like all of the feats, since half the feats outside of core require some of them.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

If we take out core in general, that takes out like all of the feats, since half the feats outside of core require some of them.I wouldn't say take out the feats, most of them aren't the issue, especially without core classes to abuse them, and like you said, that eliminates almost all feat chains. Just too much.

[monty]

Yeah, it's probably not a good idea to take out things like Weapon Focus, which really aren't broken at all and are a prerequisite for practically everything.

[Frosty]

Metamagic cheese wizard.

Using metamagic reducers, fire off a Maximized split twinned empowered orb of x

75 x 4 damage, give or take... for 300 total damage a cast. It's possible to get it in as low as a 4th level slot... 6-7th without Incantatrix.

What metamagic reducers are there besides Practical Metamagic, Arcane thesis and Metamagic School Focus? There's only so many books we're allowed, so Easy Meta is out, and so is Incantatrix.

Anbd I think I'll go talk to him again tomorrow on exactly how he'd like us to test our theories out. Once I figured out his exact objections, we can narrow down the build.

[AgentPaper]

The easiest way to do this would probably be: Ask him for an example scenario in which a ToB character breaks the game. Have him demonstrate this brokenness, with him playing the ToB character and you the monsters. Then, make a wizard/cleric/druid 2 levels lower than that same character, with no items and core-only optimization, and tear that same encounter apart with no real effort. :smallamused::smallsigh:

[mostlyharmful]

Between Control Winds, the Poly line, Planer Binding and Scry'n'Die stuff you should be able to smash anything that gets in your way, all core, all broken.

Metamagic reducers do break the game but they're relatively easy to get rid of by a DM and were clearly thought up by some pot smoking moron so it's hard to defend them but if you use mid level core spells as they were intended to utterly shatter any gameworld you find yourself in then that really says something.

[Telok]

Now what was that thing that my DM didn't let me play casters after? Oh, yeah. The bard.

Metamagic Song, Heighten Spell, Persist Spell, Extra Song.

Hideous laughter (Tahsa's) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/hideousLaughter.htm) as a 9'th level spell with a 24 hour duration. Takes 13 or 15 bardic music uses at (bard level + Chr mod + (4*Extra Song feat)).

6th level human bard, no flaws.

Or just a gnome illusionist with Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus. If you're playing higher levels add the Necropolitan and Evolved Undead templates with the Arcane Consumption feat chain.

Yeah. My DM prefers me to play ToB characters, I'm less dangerous to the campaign.

[Cheesegear]

Last I checked; Wizards are broken. End sentence.


The easiest way to do this would probably be: Ask him for an example scenario in which a ToB character breaks the game. Have him demonstrate this brokenness, with him playing the ToB character and you the monsters. Then, make a wizard/cleric/druid 2 levels lower than that same character, with no items and core-only optimization, and tear that same encounter apart with no real effort.

I agree with this method. Where is the Warblade broken? Can the DM show you why the class is broken. He knows maneuvers can only be used once per encounter right? That Strike that heals; It works once. That's it. It's marginally better than a potion of Cure X Wounds (except you can also quaff as many potions as you have)
And a Cleric can spontaneously cast heal whenever they want. Anytime. In addition to being 'Zilla.

Warmage => Rainbow Savant. Can cast all Warmage (Blasting/Damage) spells, and any Cleric (Buffing/Heal/+Damage) Spell.
Mystic Theurge. Cast Divine and Arcane Spells (Level 7 and 9, respectively). Have more spell slots than you know what to do with (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0653.html).

Even a suboptimal wizard should be able to end things rather quickly.

Contingent Spells also Win.

Does your DM recognise the flip-side of combat? Not taking damage yourself? If you ever find yourself playing with him, refuse to help him. Quote him. "Last I checked, a Warblade can beat 5 Vampires, solo. So, these four Rust Monsters shouldn't be a problem for your big sword...Oh...Wait." Then smile.

The DM only cares about damage; Therefore, he cares about the wrong thing. Like others have said. Tell the party that you don't need them. Proceed to do everything yourself (with or without summons). Even a cursory glance around the internet tells you how to break a campaign. Any campaign.

[tyckspoon]

He knows maneuvers can only be used once per encounter right? That Strike that heals; It works once. That's it. It's marginally better than a potion of Cure X Wounds (except you can also quaff as many potions as you have)
And a Cleric can spontaneously cast heal whenever they want. Anytime. In addition to being 'Zilla.

More accurately, each maneuver can be used once per refresh cycle. Warblades, along with Swordsages using Adaptive Style, can use any given maneuver as often as once every other round if they really want to (and the Warblade's recovery method involves beating up on the enemy, so they don't suffer all that much for it. Still better off using other strikes/boosts than worrying about getting back one particular maneuver to spam, tho.) The Crusader recovery method is odder and can't guarantee getting back a given maneuver, but in a longer fight it's liable to return any particular strike at least once.

[monty]

Metamagic Song, Heighten Spell, Persist Spell, Extra Song.

Hideous laughter (Tahsa's) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/hideousLaughter.htm) as a 9'th level spell with a 24 hour duration. Takes 13 or 15 bardic music uses at (bard level + Chr mod + (4*Extra Song feat)).

6th level human bard, no flaws.

Er, you do realize that Hideous Laughter isn't a valid target for Persist, right? And you don't have Extend Spell, which is a prerequisite for Persist. Also, I may be thinking of a different feat, but doesn't Metamagic Song restrict you to spells that you could cast post-metamagic anyway (i.e. no 15th level spells)?

So this is like all those DMs who ban psionics because they forgot to read that line where you can't spend more PP than your ML.

[Dark_Scary]

Not to mention that it's not even broken, because they still have to fail the save and be subject to mind affecting. So already 3/4ths of the MM above level 10 is immune.

[Xuincherguixe]

So the GM doesn't care if it isn't damage? Fine.

Play a Batman Wizard. Don't even bother to fully optimize yourself, just go Wizard 20.

Own every encounter. Period. Don't let the party have a chance to do anything. Short-circuit entire campaign plotlines by using spells (dominate the guy you need information from who wants you to go on a sub-quest to get it, Detect Thoughts to figure out a whodunnit murder mystery, etc...). Don't bother with Polycheeze, show him just how game-breaking all the other spells are.

Continue completely dominating the game, and make sure to point out how pointless you make the rest of the party (i.e. "Rogue? Who needs that? I've got Summon Monster for a trap springer and Knock for locks"). No matter the challenge, completely curb-stomp it. By yourself. While blocking the party from doing anything remotely useful.

If that won't convince your GM that casters are more broken than ToB, start looking for a different GM.

Batman Wizard refers to a play style which although your dominate, you do still rely on your team mates. You might "effectively" win the encounter, but the rest of your team still has to go do the damage after you've layed down the grease. Sure, you could pelt them with rays... but that seems like a waste of spells. Especially when you've got that big tough fighter with a big sword there who can stab things. Or that rogue to knife people in the kidneys.

It's a good way of showing how you can break the game, with a little help from your team mates. Which isn't nearly as bad as breaking the game by yourself.

Wizards can dominate the game, but that's not what Batman Wizards are about.

[Waspinator]

Well, you can reduce the need for teammates a bit. Make some skeletons, zombies, golems, or whatever and have them follow you around. Give them scythes, too. They can finish off the helpless guys that you put to sleep or otherwise disable.

[DragoonWraith]

What's the deal with Scythes? Why does the Wizard always have one?

[SurlySeraph]

Because scythes are the best weapon for a coup de grace, since they do the most damage on a critical hit. And the only time a Batman wizard does direct damage is when he coup de graces someone he's paralyzed or put to sleep or otherwise incapacitated.

[Dark_Scary]

What's the deal with Scythes? Why does the Wizard always have one?

Because:

1) You look like a badass. Come on, cowled robe + Scythe.

2) x4 crit. great on a Coup de Grace.

[Eldariel]

What's the deal with Scythes? Why does the Wizard always have one?

Because you are Death. Might as well let the other party know beforehand.

[lsfreak]

Assuming I didn't miss something in the conversation, I would guess for coup de grace; 2d4+1.5Str with 4x crit. Even a wizard with a slightly above-average Strength score and/or that has it hit with GMW can easily force Fort saves in the 30's.

EDIT: Pretty sure that's the first time I've seen a quadruple-ninja.

[Waspinator]

Yeah, basically the reasons everyone else has said. They're neat looking and good for critical hits, such as coup de grace. Good for making a cheap save-or-die effect on enemies that you've disabled.

[Epinephrine]

The Crusader recovery method is odder and can't guarantee getting back a given maneuver, but in a longer fight it's liable to return any particular strike at least once.

Having played a crusader as well as a swordsage (in a party with a crusader and a warblade), I'll point out that the crusader can cycle his strikes amazingly fast, churning out maneuvers continuously. Best recharge mechanism, though not as good for having the manoeuver you want at the start of a fight.

Taking Extra granted manoeuver, you have 5 readied and 3 in your hand (2 more to draw), so you can go through all your manoeuvers every 3 rounds. This is maintained over all your levels, you later have 6 readied and start with 4, or 7 readied and start with 5. By the time you have 6 readied and start with 4 you can sustain using 2 manoeuvers per round, throughout the whole combat, without taking a break to recharge - one reason why swift/immediate action manoeuvers are super for Crusaders - it allows you to dump out the manoeuvers as fast as you can.

[Douglas]

Taking Extra granted manoeuver, you have 5 readied and 3 in your hand (2 more to draw), so you can go through all your manoeuvers every 3 rounds. This is maintained over all your levels, you later have 6 readied and start with 4, or 7 readied and start with 5. By the time you have 6 readied and start with 4 you can sustain using 2 manoeuvers per round, throughout the whole combat, without taking a break to recharge - one reason why swift/immediate action manoeuvers are super for Crusaders - it allows you to dump out the manoeuvers as fast as you can.
Try adding Master of Nine to that some time. It's a little hard to qualify, but a one level dip in Swordsage or Warblade isn't too bad and you can add 5 to both maneuvers readied and maneuvers granted over just 5 levels.

[Draco Dracul]

DM wants damage? Blow up the planet with anti-osmium (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2013195&postcount=89).

[Faleldir]

DM wants damage? Blow up the planet with anti-osmium (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2013195&postcount=89).

You create a nonmagical, unattended object of nonliving, vegetable matter. The volume of the item created cannot exceed 1 cubic foot per caster level. You must succeed on an appropriate skill check to make a complex item.
That might not work.

[The Glyphstone]

Yeah, there's no way a DM who can actually think will let a spell limited to creating matter conjure up any amount of something that is, quite literally, the ultimate opposite of matter. the anti-osmium advocates try to claim that "anti-matter" is actually a form of matter, though, so beware.

[Draco Dracul]

Yeah, there's no way a DM who can actually think will let a spell limited to creating matter conjure up any amount of something that is, quite literally, the ultimate opposite of matter. the anti-osmium advocates try to claim that "anti-matter" is actually a form of matter, though, so beware.

In common usage, matter is anything that has both mass and volume.

Anti-matter fits a definition of matter.

[Kaiyanwang]

In common usage, matter is anything that has both mass and volume.

Anti-matter fits a definition of matter.

* looks the thousand and thousand corpses of catgirls scattered all around. *

You.. you MONSTER. You will pay for this. :smallfurious:

[Lycanthromancer]

Having played a crusader as well as a swordsage (in a party with a crusader and a warblade), I'll point out that the crusader can cycle his strikes amazingly fast, churning out maneuvers continuously. Best recharge mechanism, though not as good for having the manoeuver you want at the start of a fight.

Taking Extra granted manoeuver, you have 5 readied and 3 in your hand (2 more to draw), so you can go through all your manoeuvers every 3 rounds. This is maintained over all your levels, you later have 6 readied and start with 4, or 7 readied and start with 5. By the time you have 6 readied and start with 4 you can sustain using 2 manoeuvers per round, throughout the whole combat, without taking a break to recharge - one reason why swift/immediate action manoeuvers are super for Crusaders - it allows you to dump out the manoeuvers as fast as you can.

How many additional, extraneous letters do you need in a word?

They're maneuvers.

[Philistine]

It's an alternate spelling, but not an invalid one.

[Artanis]

It's an alternate spelling, but not an invalid one.

It's invalid because the book uses the spelling "maneuvers". Thus the spelling "manoeuver" is no more valid than spelling it "stabbythingy".


Edit: Oh good, nobody's replied to this post yet, so I have a chance to make it more clear :smallredface:


First, I am in no way commenting on the necessity or appropriateness (or lack thereof) of Lycanthromancer's post. Personally, I really don't care how somebody spells the word. So take this in that context.


Normally, you're right that both are appropriate spellings of the same word. However, ToB classes use a "discrete extraordinary or supernatural effect that is temporarily expended after use". You won't find this in the dictionary under either spelling.

The book labels the aforementioned discrete etc. etc. etc. as a "maneuver". So "manoeuver" doesn't refer to them any more than the term "stabbythingy" does.

[Telok]

Er, you do realize that Hideous Laughter isn't a valid target for Persist, right? And you don't have Extend Spell, which is a prerequisite for Persist. Also, I may be thinking of a different feat, but doesn't Metamagic Song restrict you to spells that you could cast post-metamagic anyway (i.e. no 15th level spells)?

Good catch on the Persist, I forgot about the Extend and the personal spells only thing.

That just makes it easier. Metamagic Song, Heighten Spell, Extra Music, and any one other metamagic feat (Extend is a good one). I don't think there's anything preventing you from dumping all your songs as Heighten levels though. Metamagic Song just says that it offsets the spell level adjustment, does not seem to set a limit on the level that the spell would be if the adjustment were not negated. But I could be wrong there too, I'm going off the crystalkeep indexes because I'm away from my books this week. It's in Races of Stone if you want to check.

Just doubling the duration and adding +4 or +5 to the DC of a save/lose spell are still easily worth it. And it still stacks with the spell focus feats.

The guys real objection is probably that the ToB classes aren't limited to a number of effects per day. Swordsages are limited (kind of) to per encounter tricks while crusaders have a small selection of possible maneuvers and warblades have a very limited number of maneuvers readied. The guy would probably be almost as scared by a good duskblade with rings of wizardry, some of the things they can pull come pretty close to ToB levels.

[monty]

I don't think there's anything preventing you from dumping all your songs as Heighten levels though. Metamagic Song just says that it offsets the spell level adjustment, does not seem to set a limit on the level that the spell would be if the adjustment were not negated. But I could be wrong there too, I'm going off the crystalkeep indexes because I'm away from my books this week. It's in Races of Stone if you want to check.

"You cannot use the Metamagic Song feat to add metamagic feats that would make the spell's effective level higher than the highest level of spell that you can cast normally." So, unlike DMM, they were actually at least somewhat sober when they designed this feat.


Swordsages are limited (kind of) to per encounter tricks

Adaptive Style, my friend. And at high levels, swordsages have so many maneuvers and combat is so short you'll probably never run out anyway.

[Nero24200]

The book labels the aforementioned discrete etc. etc. etc. as a "maneuver". So "manoeuver" doesn't refer to them any more than the term "stabbythingy" does.

So instantly because it's an alternative spelling that means it should have a completely different meaning?

You should try comming over to Britian, if all the small spelling changes annoy you as much as this you'll be begging to see the colours of your country's flag again.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

So instantly because it's an alternative spelling that means it should have a completely different meaning?

You should try coming over to Britian, if all the small spelling changes annoy you as much as this you'll be begging to see the colours of your country's flag again.

Actually, the colours are the same, it's just the pattern that is different.

His comment is not that alternate forms of spelling are bad, simply that a person is incorrectly attempting to (in geekspeek) call a variable.

The things that Initiators do are defined as Maneuvers. If it isn't spelled maneuver, then it isn't one, because that is how it is defined.

It's pure pedantry, perpetrated pathetically.

[Artanis]

Actually, the colours are the same, it's just the pattern that is different.

His comment is not that alternate forms of spelling are bad, simply that a person is incorrectly attempting to (in geekspeek) call a variable.

The things that Initiators do are defined as Maneuvers. If it isn't spelled maneuver, then it isn't one, because that is how it is defined.

It's pure pedantry, perpetrated pathetically.

Pretty much, yeah. Though for the record, you'll notice that the post I was replying to was just as pedantic :smallcool:

[Philistine]

You really think so? Because I'd say I was merely responding to the excessively - and worse, incorrectly - pedantic post to which I was replying.

Also: At least mine was short. So ha!

[ShneekeyTheLost]

You really think so? Because I'd say I was merely responding to the excessively - and worse, incorrectly - pedantic post to which I was replying.

Also: At least mine was short. So ha!

I would rather claim that each post was equally pedantic, and leave correctness or incorrectness out of the equation.

[Frosty]

Bah. He has already decided to just not use ToB for the next campaign. He really doesn't want to do extra work, and it's a pre-written Pathfinder campaign. Oh well. Maybe I'll play a Abjuration specialist who can throw antimagic fields up to 30 ft three times per day.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Bah. He has already decided to just not use ToB for the next campaign. He really doesn't want to do extra work, and it's a pre-written Pathfinder campaign. Oh well. Maybe I'll play a Abjuration specialist who can throw antimagic fields up to 30 ft three times per day.

Make sure to go both Abjurant Champion to be able to auto-quicken up to 3rd level Abjuration spells, and Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil because... well... you already have more of the prerequisites by being an Abjurer, so why not completely break the game?

[Optimator]

Master Specialist makes getting into IotSV pretty easy.

[Frosty]

I can't complete Initiate of the seven-fold veil if I want to be able to throw AMFs. Not enough levels. Need all 10 Master Specialist, and then at least one Archmage.

And do I really want to waste feats on martial weapon prof and Combat casting?

[Sstoopidtallkid]

I can't complete Initiate of the seven-fold veil if I want to be able to throw AMFs. Not enough levels. Need all 10 Master Specialist, and then at least one Archmage.

And do I really want to waste feats on martial weapon prof and Combat casting?Many things get Martial Weapon Prof for free.

And Wiz 3/MS 10/Archmage 1/Iot7v 7=...21.

Precocious Apprentice+Focused Specialist, maybe? With retraining, if possible? Or just don't finish Iot7v. I don't find it more broken than anything else at level 20.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Many things get Martial Weapon Prof for free.

And Wiz 3/MS 10/Archmage 1/Iot7v 7=...21.

Precocious Apprentice+Focused Specialist, maybe? With retraining, if possible? Or just don't finish Iot7v. I don't find it more broken than anything else at level 20.

actually, something like Wiz2/ms10/Iot7v4/AM1/Ito7v 2 so you can qualify for AM.

You can't quite get Violet, or Kalidoscopic Doom, but tossing around some of the other layers can be quite fun, and probably more powerful than any other secondary PrC for 6 levels.

If you didn't need the AM level, it would fit perfectly <,<

[Frosty]

Wizard 2 doesn't qualify for Master Specialist, unfortunately, although there is always the possibility of the game going epic I guess.

[Emy]

Wizard 2 doesn't qualify for Master Specialist, unfortunately, although there is always the possibility of the game going epic I guess.

I bet he's thinking of using early entry shenanigans (illumian or precocious apprentice), though I don't know if those would be usable in your game.

[Frosty]

Not permissable in the least. We use common sense in our games. Precicious Apprentice is not allowed, and we dont use Illuminan since that race is not found in the campaign setting. I also don't know what book it's in.

[VirOath]

Not permissable in the least. We use common sense in our games. Precicious Apprentice is not allowed, and we dont use Illuminan since that race is not found in the campaign setting. I also don't know what book it's in.

Races of Destiny. It's supposed to be an offshoot of humans that found the Words.

[Lycanthromancer]

I'm pretty sure that dropping Caster Level x Cubic Feet of poison on someone via shrink item is broken (how many doses is that again?).

As is creating that much poison via minor creation.

Or gating in 12 angry hecatonchieres and then teleporting out because, hey, who needs to control a bunch of enraged Armageddon-machines when they'll do your bidding anyway?

Or firing off 50+ spells per round because you have a bunch of simulacrums of yourself flying around.

Or dealing 40,000d6 points of force-based damage (no attack roll, no save) because you unsuccessfully dispelled all of those pages of explosive runes you'd been saving up.

I'm sure I can think of more. And that's just in core.

[lsfreak]

Minor creation at minimum level makes 6700 doses of poison. Even if they make every save but auto-fails, it's still an average of 870 damage and 235 Con damage a minute later using the cheapest Con poison :smallcool: