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Hadrian_Emrys
2009-05-14, 01:00 PM
What's the best Orcus slayer build you can think of?

The first thing that came to mind was a Githyanki (Infernal) Warlock/Multiclass Paragon (Wizard)/Demigod.

chronoplasm
2009-05-14, 01:04 PM
I believe I recall seeing some kind of Cleric build with Sehanine's Reversal made for this exact purpose, but I think the legalities of it were a bit disputed.

Mando Knight
2009-05-14, 01:06 PM
Tiamat.


...Other than that, probably an Elven Avenger of Tempus, possibly multiclassed into Paladin for the Champion of Order's power Certain Justice.

Hadrian_Emrys
2009-05-14, 01:07 PM
chronoplasm/Mando Knight: How would those builds work?

chronoplasm
2009-05-14, 01:20 PM
Sehanine's Reversal gives the target a condition that you just saved against.
I remember some discussion where people thought that 'death' could count. Like I said; the legality of it was quite disputed.

There's a discussion on gleemax here:
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1046651

Mando Knight
2009-05-14, 02:20 PM
Multiclassing into Paladin for Certain Justice (Champion of Order PP) and Divine Challenge grants the Avenger the ability to make an attack that almost totally shuts down Orcus (Weakens and Dazes until the character takes a turn without attacking Orcus).

Righteous Rage of Tempus (Tempus Channel Divinity feat, Forgotten Realms Player's Guide) allows your next attack to Critical if it hits. Combine this with a Vorpal Fullblade (Adventurer's Vault) and a 7[W] power to maximize damage, using the Avenger's class feature and Elven Accuracy to reroll bad attack rolls.

However, you're going to have to hope for a bunch of deadly hits besides that, since Orcus has that Touch of Death and Aura of Death... and Wand of Orcus and Tail Lash.

Alteran
2009-05-14, 04:36 PM
You could always go with a stunlock build. It won't win by itself, but it lets your party beat on him until he is dead (or gets very lucky).

The three Wizard powers from the PHB that stun (save ends) are Destructive Salutation (Blood Mage 20), Prismatic Spray (Wizard 25), and Legion's Hold (Wizard 29). These are all daily powers. The idea is to stun him and impose a bonus so high that he can't overcome it. As a solo he gets a +5 bonus to saving throws, but at level 30 this isn't hard to overcome. You're obviously going with an Orb of Imposition. The penalties add up like this:

-8 (Wis mod from Orb of Imposition, PHB)
-6 (Enhancement bonus from Orb of Ultimate Imposition, AV)
-2 (Spell Focus feat, PHB)

You've already got a -16, so that Orcus needs to get a natural 20 to save. I'm unsure if a natural 20 automatically makes the save, but if it doesn't, then he cannot be unstunned. Kill at leisure.

There are a few things you can do to make sure you hit. Assuming you have a 28 intelligence (Demigod ED, probably), you can have the following:

15 (half level)
9 (ability mod)
6 (implement)
3 (implement expertise)

That's +33 vs. Will, with few extra bonuses to attack. Orcus has 49 will, so you'd need a 16 to hit. That's not a very good chance. A Warlord who has taken the Battle Captain paragon path can give you a bonus to attack rolls (important) and speed (less important) equal to his intelligence modifier. This can be up to 10, so you now need a 6 to hit. Still not perfect. If you start your turn within 10 squares of this Warlord, you get a +2 bonus to attack rolls on your first turn (and surprise round, if you get one). If you have combat advantage as well, then you now need a 2 to hit. Invisibility or Greater Invisibility are easy ways to get CA for your attack if you can burn an action point.

I'm sure there's a way to increase your attack bonus any more, but I can't think of many. Well, besides having 30 intelligence. You could be a human and take Action Surge, actually. You couldn't have 30 intelligence without sacrificing some wisdom, but you'd get a +3 bonus to the attack roll if you do it on an action point. There we go, you now cannot miss.

It's a simpler (and probably less effective) way of killing Orcus, but a good ol' fashioned stunlock still works quite well.

Shadow_Elf
2009-05-14, 05:34 PM
Other than the fact that this doesn't belong on the homebrew board...

Alteran has a point, and if you spend an action point within 10 squares of the aforementioned warlord, I'm pretty sure you get another +10.

Mando's build is probably best if you want to outright kill him 1v1. Or that crazy ranger build on CharOp that can make 20+ attacks in one round.

Mercenary Pen
2009-05-14, 06:02 PM
Or that crazy ranger build on CharOp that can make 20+ attacks in one round.

Which got nerfed when Blade Cascade was errata'ed (I assume that was the build you meant).

Alteran
2009-05-14, 07:32 PM
I believe it's another build. I don't know the specifics, but I think it makes use of Backhand Strike (or something similar), which allows you to make an attack with your off-hand weapon with a -2 penalty to the attack roll whenever you hit with your main-hand weapon.

Hadrian_Emrys
2009-05-14, 07:55 PM
I know Shadow. I must have clicked on the wrong subforum, and didn't double check before starting the thread.

In any case, I can see Mando's build starting the bout hitting like a champ... but how durable is it? Orcus as a metric ton of hp, and dishes out quite a bit of hurt while he takes his sweet time kicking the bucket.

Shadow_Elf
2009-05-14, 09:08 PM
Another Idea:

Disintegrate + Warlord Bonus + Orb Of Ultimate Imposition = 200+ damage, on average. Multiclass to Avenger for the utility "demand justice", and you essentially double the time it takes him to save against that. Just fire off Disintegrate + Orb, then Greater Invis, and demand justice when he rolls a 20. That'll get his HP way down on the cheap.

Flame of Anor
2009-05-15, 12:54 AM
Munchkinning maketh my head to revolve right round...:smallsigh:

Gralamin
2009-05-15, 03:37 PM
Solo-ing Orcus is a matter of dealing sufficient damage in a short enough time span. This thread (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1165912) is one of the builds, and all of the links in this post (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=18474646&postcount=79) are candidates.

Do note, however, that Orcus is a Leader. This means if your fighting him one on one, your DM is using him wrong.

Hadrian_Emrys
2009-05-16, 11:04 AM
Well, of course. This is all about just having fun by messing around with the numbers. Much like taking on a pimped out "That Damned Crab", odds are that it will never happen but it'd be enjoyable to watch the show.

Oslecamo
2009-05-16, 11:26 AM
Do note, however, that Orcus is a Leader. This means if your fighting him one on one, your DM is using him wrong.

He's also a solo monster. Wich means the rules themselves are wrong. Orcus is suposed to go toe to toe with the party all by himself while at the same time having minions.

Besides, Orcus also can't teleport, can't enforce his leadership, can't communicate with whatever maniacs follow him at distance, can't create stuff, can't even have girls or booze because his aura instantly destroys them, can't watch his dominions from afar, or even fly, so he probably wants to be killed.:smalltongue:

Shades of Gray
2009-05-16, 11:43 AM
Solo doesn't mean without help. All the dragons have encounter groups that use minions. I recall that lesser dragons have kobold dragonshields or minions, and that some red dragons have githyanki.

Solo means a challenge for four adventurers. Average party size is 5. Assuming you want to make it slightly difficult, you can have an encounter appropriate for a group of six. Add two soldiers of the same level (30) or a bunch of level 30 minions along with Orcus, or even a level 30 elite.

Arbitrarity
2009-05-16, 12:03 PM
Eladrin Wizard/whatever 29
Get an Epic Phrenic Crown. Spell focus. This makes an instant -5 on saves. Add in Orb of Imposition, with 24 wisdom, for -12. Ordinarily, you use a +6 cunning longsword with Eladrin Sword Wizardry, but if you're not sure if you will hit, instead: Grab a +2 Orb of Inescapable Consequences. Grab a +4 orb of ultimate imposition. Use Sleep or another disable (legion's hold, or Prismatic spray), save ends, targetting will power, through the orb of inescapable consequences. If you miss, use the daily power of the orb, to hit. Use the orb of ultimate imposition, and the orb of imposition class feature, with 24 wisdom, to make all saving throws fail, forever.

Automatic hit, infinite sleep/stun.

A more specific build:
MC swordmage, grab Fate-Spurned Foe.
Go Blood Mage, because it's AWESOME.
Go archmage, for more powers.
Oh, for the monsters, pull out your Cunning Longsword, and use Legions hold, and Fate-spurned foe. With -11 to their saves, NO normal monster will avoid daze/stun.
For minions, use second wind, which wipes out every minion within 10 squares of you.
Basically, you need Orcus with some Elites guarding him. And since I'm solo, I think that seems unreasonable.
Oh, and the elite still has to save at -9, which should be crippling enough for me to finish him first.

Gralamin
2009-05-16, 04:56 PM
Solo doesn't mean without help. All the dragons have encounter groups that use minions. I recall that lesser dragons have kobold dragonshields or minions, and that some red dragons have githyanki.

Solo means a challenge for four adventurers. Average party size is 5. Assuming you want to make it slightly difficult, you can have an encounter appropriate for a group of six. Add two soldiers of the same level (30) or a bunch of level 30 minions along with Orcus, or even a level 30 elite.

Solo is a challenge for 5.


He's also a solo monster. Wich means the rules themselves are wrong. Orcus is suposed to go toe to toe with the party all by himself while at the same time having minions.

Besides, Orcus also can't teleport, can't enforce his leadership, can't communicate with whatever maniacs follow him at distance, can't create stuff, can't even have girls or booze because his aura instantly destroys them, can't watch his dominions from afar, or even fly, so he probably wants to be killed.:smalltongue:

Because solo means he can't have allies. Not like its possible to make it a higher level encounter that he's part of. That just wouldn't make sense apparently.

Shades of Gray
2009-05-16, 05:04 PM
@Gralamin,

Really? I'm going by level one here:

A single character should level up after ten encounters. A single enemy at level 1 gives you 25 XP. An elite gives double the xp as a regular enemy does. A Solo gives you 4x the exp that a regular does. A minion gives you 1/4 of a regular enemy.

So a solo enemy is a challenge for four players. If you have five players, you can either add in four minions or one regular. If you have six, you can add in 8 minions, 4 minions and a regular, two regulars, or one elite, to make it a challenging encounter.

Gralamin
2009-05-16, 05:14 PM
@Gralamin,

Really? I'm going by level one here:

A single character should level up after ten encounters. A single enemy at level 1 gives you 25 XP. An elite gives double the xp as a regular enemy does. A Solo gives you 4x the exp that a regular does. A minion gives you 1/4 of a regular enemy.

So a solo enemy is a challenge for four players. If you have five players, you can either add in four minions or one regular. If you have six, you can add in 8 minions, 4 minions and a regular, two regulars, or one elite, to make it a challenging encounter.

Minion gives you 1/4 yes (100 XP standard monster at level 1, Minion gives 25 XP). Elite gives double (200 XP). Solo gives 5x (500 XP) See DMG page 56, as well as 59.

Mercenary Pen
2009-05-16, 05:38 PM
Minion gives you 1/4 yes (100 XP standard monster at level 1, Minion gives 25 XP). Elite gives double (200 XP). Solo gives 5x (500 XP) See DMG page 56, as well as 59.

It has been acknowledged in one of the D&D podcasts that the numbers aren't quite that straightforwards in the higher tiers of play. Specifically, it was stated that, by about the mid paragon tier onwards, minions are no longer worth a quarter of a regular monster (in terms of combat threat). Judging by the number of Orcus-slaying builds out there, I would suggest that the same might actually be true of all the other monsters. With a certain degree of optimisation, a party of 5 adventurers should be expected to take on something significantly more challenging than a level 33 encounter and WIN!

This is presumably the reason why the encounter build with Orcus in the monster manual is a level 34 encounter, rather than just Orcus on his own.