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Tarmikos
2009-05-14, 02:02 PM
Posting for a friend, but he wanted me to ask about a grappler build. He wants to make a fully optimized grappler, and was wondering:

What race should it be?

What class(es) and why?

What feats?

What equipment?

JeenLeen
2009-05-14, 02:28 PM
If you want to use Races of Incarnum, the Girallon Arms soulmeld for Totemist are good. You get a +2 bonus (I forget what type) + 2 per essentia invested.

Lords of Madness has some feats that can give +2 racial bonus to grapple. Deepspawn gives you tentacles that you can use without penalty in a grapple.

Telonius
2009-05-14, 03:13 PM
Posting for a friend, but he wanted me to ask about a grappler build. He wants to make a fully optimized grappler, and was wondering:

What race should it be?

What class(es) and why?

What feats?

What equipment?

Race: Any.
Class: Druid. Shapechange into something that will get better grappling bonuses than any Fighter or Monk can get.
Feats: Natural Spell.
Equipment: Wilding clasps, Strength boosting items.

Gorbash
2009-05-14, 03:25 PM
Problem with Grappler build is that it's very very easily negated in a bunch of ways.

First of all, you can't establish a hold on a creature two size bigger than you (you automatically lose that attempt), meaning you're kinda limited on what you can grapple.

Second, one lowish level spell, Freedom of Movement nullifies grapple, and a bunch of classes have access to it (Bard, Cleric, Druid, Ranger, Sorcerer and Wizard with Heart of Water).

Third, it's also easy to escape grapple even if you're not grappling casters, with one dirt cheap item, Anklets of Translocation. Most demons and devils are also basically immune to grappling, since they can just teleport out whenever they want.

Point is, focusing on grapple is very very sub-par since it can be avoided in a bunch of different ways, and it makes you a one trick pony and useless in situations noted above.

Pie Guy
2009-05-14, 03:26 PM
Use the above build with Wild shaping ranger (In UA or the SRD) and Master of Many Forms.

More of a grappl-y feel, rather than a broken-y feel.

Olo Demonsbane
2009-05-14, 04:07 PM
I call on...Sir Giacomo the Monk!

[linky pleease]

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-05-14, 10:57 PM
I call on...Sir Giacomo the Monk!

[linky pleease]No.

There are basically 3 classes that can grapple, plus any in Incarnum(no access to the book, so I can't be sure).

Cleric:Persist buffs boosting Size and Str, take Improved Grapple, and cast/beat on anything immune. Needs 2 feats, and a lot of resources like spell slots, as well as limiting your overall build to basically one type of Cleric. Eh.

Druid:Wildshape into something big with high Str and Improved Grab, cast a Str-boost spell like Bite of the WereX, and beat on anything immune. Takes no resources beyond class and a couple spell slots. My personal favorite. Works nearly as well in a Wildshape Ranger/MoMF build. May be too good.

PsyWar:Take Imp Grapple, cast Expansion, go to town. Some of the same issues as the Cleric, but less cheesy and requiring less optimization.

Harperfan7
2009-05-14, 11:22 PM
Half-Red Dragon Troll Monk ?/Reaping Mauler 5 with access to antimagic field.

Besides prerequisites, Earth's Embrace.

The sad thing is, I would consider this completely broken. You guys most likely think it's too weak to bother playing.:smallsigh:

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-05-14, 11:25 PM
Human, Monk 6/ Psionic Fist 10/ whatever. Take Aberration Blood: Flexible Limbs, Inhuman Reach, Deepspawn, and if possible use Warped Mind instead of Wild Talent to qualify for Psionic Fist. Your Monk feats should be Improved Grapple, Combat Reflexes, and Improved Trip. Take Expansion and Grip of Iron as your first powers known. Get Starspawn and Practiced Manifester, and be sure to get Armbands of Might.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-05-14, 11:44 PM
Half-Red Dragon Troll Monk ?/Reaping Mauler 5 with access to antimagic field.

Besides prerequisites, Earth's Embrace.

The sad thing is, I would consider this completely broken. You guys most likely think it's too weak to bother playing.:smallsigh:Yeah it's broken. You can't take Reaping Mauler as a troll. One of it's prereqs is a feat that requires medium size. That's why the class sucks, grapplers who use it can't go Large for the +4 or the chance to go after Gargantuan monsters.

Besides, the LA would have you dead in your first serious combat anyways.

Roderick_BR
2009-05-15, 12:13 AM
For races:
For LA+1 you have half-troll (if i'm not wrong, in one of the Monster Manuals) and Goliath from Races of Stone. Both give you Powerful Build, that makes you count as 1 size category larger in many situations (weapon usage, grapples, bullrushes, etc...) while still being medium.
As a human, if your DM allows regional feats from Forgotten Realms, get Jotunbrug as a 1st level human. You basically have Powerful Build, except for weapon usage.

Then go unarmed swordsage (Tome of Battle) for grapple/throw maneuvers, and maybe the aforementioned Reaping Mauler.

Teleport and Freedom of Movement still denies you everything, though.
If the DM accepts some houserules: Make Teleport be a full round action with somatic components (no idea why it isen't already), and Freedom of Movement, instead of just going "nopes, you can't, end of story", give a +20 bonus on escape checks.

sombrastewart
2009-05-15, 12:19 AM
For what it's worth, I played a Goliath Barbarian that would go to grappling as a backup tactic. It worked out pretty well, at the low level we were at, because he'd grab a caster when he saw one.

Keld Denar
2009-05-15, 01:40 AM
Monk2/PsyWar18 with Monastic Training and Tashalatora, both from Secrets of Sarlona. Excelent book for a flavorful psionic beatdowner. Take Imp Grapple and Combat Reflexes as your 2 monk bonus feats, and then grab maybe Link Power and Practiced Manifester, and oh, yea, Expanded Learning (Metamorphesis). Expand up to Huge, grab someone using Grip of Iron and/or Strength of my Enemy, and do your full 20th level monk progression UAS damage augemented by Improved Natural Attack, Superior Unarmed Strike, and as many effective size boosts as you can get to stack. Almost all the benefits of being a 20th level monk with 100% less suck and 60% more bonus feats, not to mention manifesting as an 18th level PsyWar at ML20 by end game. Grab Snapkick as well and combine it with Flurry of Blows for lots of extra attacks that allow you to make your foe go from zero to pinned in less than 6 seconds! Maybe even Scorpion's Grasp from Sandstorm to nab Improved Grab so you can smack first and squeeze later!

herrhauptmann
2009-05-15, 01:57 AM
Yeah it's broken. You can't take Reaping Mauler as a troll. One of it's prereqs is a feat that requires medium size. That's why the class sucks, grapplers who use it can't go Large for the +4 or the chance to go after Gargantuan monsters.

Besides, the LA would have you dead in your first serious combat anyways.

Go to Faerun (Players guide to Faerun I think) and take feat Jotunbrud. Whenever it is advantageous to you, you count as a large sized creature even though you're human. Grapple/trip/disarm, and when determining if a monster can eat you.

Or go for a choker. And take the life drinker PrC in BoVD. Every time you hit someone, you drain a level, and gain bonuses (not sure if bonuses stack). Small sized, 10 ft reach, +X racial to grapple checks which offset your size. Not sure how big of a creature you can grapple though.

Berserk Monk
2009-05-15, 02:47 AM
Check Complete Warrior for a prestige class called reaping mauler.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-05-15, 11:43 AM
Check Complete Warrior for a prestige class called reaping mauler.No, really, don't. Even with the ways of getting powerful build others have listed, only one of the 3 basic grapple builds I listed goes larg(and that was the weakest grappler of the 3). The others are huge or bigger. The class isn't good enough to limit yourself to Large size.

Deepblue706
2009-05-15, 11:57 AM
Check Complete Warrior for a prestige class called reaping mauler.

While that does fit the description of a "Grappler Build", the OP specifically notes that he wants full optimization. The Reaping Mauler does enhance Grappling abilities, it doesn't match other methods (such as spellcasting to beef yourself up). It might suffice for a common game - where optimization may not be of utmost importance - but this is specifically about getting as many bonuses as possible. RM falls short.

Darrin
2009-05-15, 01:33 PM
What race should it be?


As big as possible without taking too much LA. Unfortunately, there's nothing decent with a large size that doesn't come with racial hit dice or too much LA. Something with Powerful Build is probably the best to start with. Half-giant is best because you start out with some psionic power points and have psychic warrior as a favored class, which is where you can pick up Expansion.

If you're more interested in an Improved Grab build, then Goliath might be better than Half-Giant, since you can add the Amphibious template and qualify for Scaled Horror (PrC from Savage Species). As for why you might want to do this... I'll get to that in a bit.

As herrhauptman points out, a human with the regional feat Jotunbrud would also work with no LA.



What class(es) and why?


Psychic Warrior, about 3-5 levels + Practiced Manifester gets you Augmented Expansion for two size increases. If you still have Powerful Build, then you can grapple up to Colossal creatures. As Keld Denar points out, a Monk 2/PsyWar 18 with the Tashalatora feat will tear anything apart that doesn't have Freedom of Movement or Teleport effects.

Bear Totem Barbarian (UA) is also a good start. You pick up Toughness, Improved Grapple, and Great Fortitude in the first three levels, which if you combine with the City Brawler barbarian variant (Dragon #349) and the Power Attack feat, leads directly into Fist of the Forest. Add a level of something else with full BAB, and you can go into Bear Warrior from there. Although your bear forms limit your size, bears are some of the best grapplers in the game.

Wildshape Ranger (simple ranger variant in UA) can also turn into a bear. Wildshape Ranger 6/Master of Many Forms 10 (plus some Warshaper here and there) can get pretty deep into the "Borken!" end of the wildshape pool.

Spirit Bear Totem (CompChamp) offers Improved Grab at level one, which gives you a free grapple check with a successful melee attack, but there's a size requirement (only works on creatures smaller than you). There's a better way to pick up Improved Grab, however.

The Scaled Horror PrC (Savage Species p. 83) gets Improved Grab with a one-level dip, but it works on creatures up to your same size. Combined with expansion + powerful build, you can go even larger. Scaled Horror is fairly easy to qualify for (you need the reptilian or aquatic subtype), so long as you're a humanoid or monstrous humanoid. In Stormwrack, there's an Amphibious template that will give you the aquatic subtype without any LA, just a -2 stat penalty to Dex. Also quite nice, unlike most aquatic creatures, you can still breathe air normally. Unfortunately, Half-Giants don't count (unless your DM allows you to take the Human Heritage feat from Races of Destiny), but Goliaths work just fine.

So long as you're large (or have Powerful Build), another PrC you might want to take a look at is Hulking Hurler (CompWar). A one-level dip gives you Really Throw Anything, which allows you to pick up anything you can lift over your head and throw them as an improvised weapon. Yes, this includes enemies. Consider my King of Pong build for some ideas on what could be done with this:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=107248

And finally... as has already been mentioned, the bane of all grapple builds is Freedom of Movement. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to find anything that reliably trumps FoM. However... a Spellthief using Steal Spell Effect might work, but you have to have enough class levels + Cha modifier to beat the caster level of the effect.



What feats?


Jotunbrud has already been mentioned... combine with Strongarm Bracers and you have everything Powerful Build can give you. One other difference, though... since Jotunbrud is a feat and not an (Ex) ability, I think you retain its benefits if you go into an alternate form, such as alter self/polymorph.

Scorpion's Grasp can work in place of improved grab, but I wouldn't recommend it unless you're already committed to picking up improved unarmed strike and improved grapple.

Improved Sunder might be useful for getting rid of all those Ring of FoMs.



What equipment?


Mighty Arms + Battle Fist (Warforged Grafts) are fairly cheap. If mounted on a Half-Giant or Goliath, I think you might be able to bump the damage up to a 2d6 slam attack, or if you're a monk/psywar, you get your unarmed strike damage on a weapon you can enchant.

Smoking, +1 weapon enhancement, Lords of Darkness p. 180. Fills your square with nauseating fumes. Provides concealment, and anyone that enters your square (including when you grapple someone), they have to make a Fort save (DC 13 I think) or be nauseated. A nauseated opponent can only take move actions (and, conveniently enough, cannot teleport out of a grapple). Nauseated + grapple = pin them until they die.

You'll also want to consider a Dispelling weapon (+6000 GP 1/day in PGtF or +1 enhancement 3/day in MIC) to get rid of FoM, although that has limited uses per day. There's a +3 enhancement called Superior Dispelling in Dragon #312 which can be activated as a standard action, but only as an area dispel. Add a Dispelling Cord (1000 GP, MIC) for +2 on your dispel checks 5/day.

A Binding weapon (+1 enhancement, MIC) will shut down teleportation effects, but only 2/day. There's also an Anchoring enhancement in Dragon #309 for 11200 GP, but that's only 1/day. However, the Greater Anchoring, while incredibly expenseive (80000 GP), has unlimited uses.

Another option might be a Panic Button (standing) from Complete Scoundrel, p. 115. If you aren't wearing armor, you can drop this button in your square as a swift action after starting a grapple, and it effects anyone standing in that square (which, since you initiated a grapple, now includes your opponent). It creates a dimensional anchor effect for 1 round, and at 750 GP apiece, is probably a lot cheaper and easier to use than Dimensional Shackles.

Fiendring, 30000 GP, Lost Empires of Faerun p. 152. Once per day, assume the form of a fiendish creature/demon/devil summonable via summon monster I/II/III/IV. However, unlike alter self/polymorph, you also get all their Su and SLA abilities. I haven't looked at every possible form, but if you're looking for a grappler, a Voor Yugoloth (MMIV) looks promising: large size, rend, +19 grapple check.

Phylactery of Change, 11200 GP, A&EG p. 135. Similar to the Fiendring, you can polymorph into something larger with a better grapple bonus. Unfortunately, you're limited to 7 HD. However, for only 7 HD a Remorhaz has improved grab, +23 grapple bonus, swallow whole, and 8d6 heat damage.

Kantolin
2009-05-15, 03:27 PM
One mild aside is that most DMs are willing to accept you not losing your class abilities when the Reaping Mauler is enlarged, which makes Reaping Mauler less of a poor idea. That said, Reaping Mauler still isn't as good as some of the above options.

I also question the 'this limits you into being X type of unit' when Improved Grapple is, at most, two feats? Sometimes one? Psychic Warrior even gets bonus feats with which to make up for this. Go take power attack or whatever for your other feat. Beyond that it requires you to be strong, which isn't usually a limitaiton at all.

herrhauptmann
2009-05-15, 03:41 PM
Improved Sunder might be useful for getting rid of all those Ring of FoMs.


Don't think you can sunder worn items. Pretty sure only weapons, shields, rods, wands etc, that are being held in a hand/claw/tentacle.

Darrin
2009-05-15, 04:34 PM
Don't think you can sunder worn items. Pretty sure only weapons, shields, rods, wands etc, that are being held in a hand/claw/tentacle.

From the SRD:

"Sundering a Carried or Worn Object: You don’t use an opposed attack roll to damage a carried or worn object. Instead, just make an attack roll against the object’s AC. A carried or worn object’s AC is equal to 10 + its size modifier + the Dexterity modifier of the carrying or wearing character."

A ring would probably be a fine-sized item, so AC = 10 + 8 + Dex modifier. This shouldn't be too difficult by the time your enemies can afford a Ring of FoM.

Gralamin
2009-05-15, 04:42 PM
I've seen a Wizard build based on grappling that was rather good, but I cannot currently find it (well the boards for the link I had aren't accessible).

Sir Giacomo
2009-05-16, 02:13 PM
I call on...Sir Giacomo the Monk!

[linky pleease]

Yes...you summoned me? :smallbiggrin:

Anyhow, to the OP:
Check out my monk guide (see the sig). Most of the information can be found in there, but it is core only.

Polymorphing and shapechanging likely will not be allowed by your DM, so the caster classes (including druid) are out of the game here.

Fighter, barbarian and monk make good grappling classes. Imo the monk remains the best due to
1) the highest number of grappling checks possible
2) the highest grapple/unarmed damage
3) improved grapple as a bonus feat meaning you are less MAD since you keep the feat advantage when being enlarged while having low DEX (allowing you to focus more on STR).

The lower BAB problem of the monk can be overcome at higher levels with a simple (core) divine power spell effect (with UMDed :smallcool:wand or from ring of spell storing).

Other stuff that could help grappling:
- Gloves of the Titans Grip (actually also SRD, but psionics rules). Gives +8 enhancement bonus to grapple and thus with a permanent enlarged high-STR monk you can basically out-grapple everything excepting gargantuan size+
- complete warrior offers clever wrestling feat which gets you closer to out-grappling also the larger critters
- the denying stance monk variant of the unearthed arcana rules (also in SRD compilations) will net you another +2 to a grapple check by level 6, but it's a bit of a pain to meet the requirements.
- do not forget to take power attack and improved sunder to remove those annoying rings of freedom of movement (they are made of gold only).
- a torc of AMF (MiC, Drow of Underdark) item can also help to get rid of the freedom of movement of opponents. Do not try this against huge creatures+, though (who keep their high grapple checks while you use your magical enhancements).

At low levels, grappling is a powerful combat tactics. At high levels, in some circumstances, too.

Hope that helped you.

- Giacomo