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Archpaladin Zousha
2009-05-14, 02:55 PM
I'm trying to make a low-magic campaign for my brother and our friends, but I'm not sure where to begin, or where to draw the lines. I'm thinking of allowing Tome of Battle and the Factotum to be used, but I'm not sure if that would throw off the balance of the game. I want it so a simple +1 sword is such a big deal that it has its own name and entire kingdoms will fight over it.

I do want there to be spellcasting, but I want to limit it heavily. How much magic do you see being used in The Lord of the Rings? That's sort of the image I'm going for. If a wizard somehow becomes involved, even if they're level 1, that person is going to be instantly famous. A level 1 cleric would probably be considered the god of the faith in human flesh.

I've got some rudimentary ideas for the campaign itself. First off, the centerpiece is going to be this large empire that's in the midst of civil war and on the brink of collapse, with the PCs having to choose whether they fight to help re-unify the empire, or with one of the rebel factions to gain their independence, and eventually saving the world.

I'm also going to put them through the Tomb of Horrors, as provided by the WOTC website.

Any advice on where to start? Does anyone here have any tips for making low-magic campaigns and worlds? For campaigns and worlds in general?

Thank you very much. :smallsmile:

Morty
2009-05-14, 02:59 PM
If you want spellcasters to be very influential and powerful, then I think it's going to come up by itself - if magic items are very rare, then spellcasters have a clear advantage.
The biggest problem I can see is healing - without divine magic, PCs might have trouble with it. So first you'd have to come up with something to fix it.
Another problem would be monsters that even ToBers can't defeat without magic items, but from your description I gather that PCs will fight mostly NPCs with class levels.

strawberryman
2009-05-14, 03:07 PM
The biggest problem I can see is healing - without divine magic, PCs might have trouble with it. So first you'd have to come up with something to fix it.

A partial fix could be to use the Restore Hit Points part of d20m's Treat Injury skill, except allowing it more often, and allowing it to heal more damage.

Restore Hit Points (DC 15): With a medical kit (healers kit, herbs, etc. in 3.5), if a character has lost hit points, the character can restore some of them. A successful check, as a full-round action, restores 1d4 hit points. The number restored can never exceed the character's full normal total of hit points. This application of the skill can be used successfully on a character only once per day.

Personally, I let it be used 1/encounter or after an encounter, let the user add their Wis mod to damage healed, and let it scale as the character goes up in level and/or ranks of Heal.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-05-14, 03:13 PM
If you want spellcasters to be very influential and powerful, then I think it's going to come up by itself - if magic items are very rare, then spellcasters have a clear advantage.
The biggest problem I can see is healing - without divine magic, PCs might have trouble with it. So first you'd have to come up with something to fix it.
Another problem would be monsters that even ToBers can't defeat without magic items, but from your description I gather that PCs will fight mostly NPCs with class levels.

What I'm trying to do (or at least the way my brother's hoping I'll do it) is that battle are won by strategy, rather than brute force. In the campaign, the ideal battle is one where you don't get hit at all.

Morty
2009-05-14, 03:15 PM
What I'm trying to do (or at least the way my brother's hoping I'll do it) is that battle are won by strategy, rather than brute force. In the campaign, the ideal battle is one where you don't get hit at all.

Well, that's certainly a good way to do this, although how to best execute it I have no idea. In any case, I'd advise introducing some way of nonmagical healing like the one strawberryman posted too, just in case.

Kylarra
2009-05-14, 03:19 PM
Another healing fix would be the ability to downgrade wounds to nonlethal through a healing check. Then you'd equivalent heal level per hour hp vs level/day.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-05-14, 03:27 PM
I think I like that idea. What would the best DC be for someone to convert lethal damage to non-lethal damage? Would it convert all the damage or only a portion of it?

Olo Demonsbane
2009-05-14, 04:12 PM
How about it takes off the check result of damage? Like, if you roll a 25, you take 25 damage to non-lethal damage.

And the DC should either be static or scale by damage.

Dhavaer
2009-05-14, 04:34 PM
I want it so a simple +1 sword is such a big deal that it has its own name and entire kingdoms will fight over it.

A problem with this is that +1 to attack and damage isn't really a big deal. Unless there's a lot of critters with DR/Magic around, +1 weapons just don't have enough of an effect to be worth going to war over.

Satyr
2009-05-14, 04:54 PM
I could hardly comment on this without propagating Serpents and Sewers (http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php?title=Serpents_and_Sewers) beforehand. It should include probably every issue you mentioned, and is gernally an improved version of D&D 3.5 in almost evrey single regard (almost. Never found a replacement for the Grapple rules I liked.)

That said, whileI think that this would be the best solution for the OP's needs, it may be a tad radical.

So, conscider this instead as a "rough and simple solution":

Characters in standard D&D are supposed to have many and reliable magical items and are actually dependant on them in more than one regard. Taking away their arsenals will hurt them badly and can massively and significantly reduce the character's survivability.
You shoud therefore create an alternative power source for the characters; the simplest solution is to employ Gestalt rules and grant generally more feats (e.g. on every odd level) and grant more skill points, because the chracters are going to need this. If you use Tome of Battle (which may a good choice) remeber that the there aredisciplines which are nothing but magic with a different lable, espcially in the Swordsage-only categories.


Non-casters are hit much harder by this than casters, who can normally create their extraordinary abilities and powers by themself and are much less addicted to magic equipment. If you combine this with the general problem of ridiculusly overpowered spellcasters, you agravate an already problematic situation, so take your nerf hammer and swing it into spellcaster faces with full force. Chose your favorite caster nerfing and apply it with utmost preudice. In a low magic campaign this is not only justifed as in a normal campaign, it is pretty much mandatory.


Now, magical items... it's a good idea to think of every single magical item as a minor artefact. The Weapons of Legacy stuff could be a good idea, if you grant the item feats for free. As a rule of thumb, one significant or a few minor magical item per character is a good idea. Not including consumables.


Healing is only an isue if you follow the usual D&D trends and rush from one combat into the next and do not plan for enough time for regeneration. This one is an illusional problem which is normally solved best by complete ignorance for the usual approach. Yes, this means that a character may take a week to regenerate after a combat. But that doesn't mean that this is bad. It only means that the cadence of battles gets slower, while every single battle becomes more exclusive and significant.

Acrux
2009-05-14, 04:54 PM
If you are interested in a low-magic world, might I humbly suggest an E6 campaign world? Basically, all characters are limited to 6 character levels (but continue to gain feats on each level-up after that). They essentially provide a world like you are wanting (i.e. +1 swords are a world-wide rarity).

There are plenty of threads here and on the web. A search for E6 campaign should bring up some good links.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-05-14, 05:31 PM
I could hardly comment on this without propagating Serpents and Sewers (http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php?title=Serpents_and_Sewers) beforehand. It should include probably every issue you mentioned, and is gernally an improved version of D&D 3.5 in almost evrey single regard (almost. Never found a replacement for the Grapple rules I liked.)

That said, whileI think that this would be the best solution for the OP's needs, it may be a tad radical.

So, conscider this instead as a "rough and simple solution":

Characters in standard D&D are supposed to have many and reliable magical items and are actually dependant on them in more than one regard. Taking away their arsenals will hurt them badly and can massively and significantly reduce the character's survivability.
You shoud therefore create an alternative power source for the characters; the simplest solution is to employ Gestalt rules and grant generally more feats (e.g. on every odd level) and grant more skill points, because the chracters are going to need this. If you use Tome of Battle (which may a good choice) remeber that the there aredisciplines which are nothing but magic with a different lable, espcially in the Swordsage-only categories.


Non-casters are hit much harder by this than casters, who can normally create their extraordinary abilities and powers by themself and are much less addicted to magic equipment. If you combine this with the general problem of ridiculusly overpowered spellcasters, you agravate an already problematic situation, so take your nerf hammer and swing it into spellcaster faces with full force. Chose your favorite caster nerfing and apply it with utmost preudice. In a low magic campaign this is not only justifed as in a normal campaign, it is pretty much mandatory.


Now, magical items... it's a good idea to think of every single magical item as a minor artefact. The Weapons of Legacy stuff could be a good idea, if you grant the item feats for free. As a rule of thumb, one significant or a few minor magical item per character is a good idea. Not including consumables.


Healing is only an isue if you follow the usual D&D trends and rush from one combat into the next and do not plan for enough time for regeneration. This one is an illusional problem which is normally solved best by complete ignorance for the usual approach. Yes, this means that a character may take a week to regenerate after a combat. But that doesn't mean that this is bad. It only means that the cadence of battles gets slower, while every single battle becomes more exclusive and significant.

I think this "Serpents and Sewers" thing just might be what I'm looking for! Thank you!

Eldariel
2009-05-14, 05:48 PM
If interested, I'd like to point you towards my Campaign Journal (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6061031#post6061031) on just such world, including a bunch of houserules being used to make things run entirely without magic (important because casters are so rare that things normally reliant on magic, such as healing, just cannot be done in a party in a world like this and thus non-magical options are important) while still functioning for adventuring.

We're allowing ToB characters (actually encouraging them) and all non-magical (that is, no Su or Spell-Like abilities) classes such as Factotum, Knight, etc. This is no problem; ToB just adds versatility to melee (making the game more interesting as the normal "options" are gone with PC-centric heavy magic) and Factotum has a different focus than e.g. Rogue, especially without their spells (we use spelless variants of all the half-casters like Ranger, Paladin & Factotum). They exist alongside the usual suspects from the PHB, and where they replace old classes, it's generally an improvement play experience-wise.


With magic items, I suggest against making +1 sword a big deal, because it frankly isn't. +1 sword deals on average 1 point more damage than Mw. Sword and penetrates DR. The DR-aspect can be sort of relevant, but considering the types of monsters you'd expect in a LMW, not often. So mostly, +1 Sword is almost indistinguishable from a well-crafted mundane sword. Instead, I suggest the following:

Make every magic item in the world an artifact. That is, give it immense power; the kind of power you'd expect from an item of magic. As they're rare, it's alright for them to be extremely powerful. That gives them a reason to be named and sought throughout kingdoms, used to turn tides of war and so on. Because they can't be crafted, +1 weapons shouldn't be abundant.

In fact, as people capable of making magic items are so rare (or inexistent), it just makes sense that the few who do make magic items don't bother with trinkets or minor things hardly superior to things with no magic whatsoever in them and instead make Rings of Power and Swords of Legend with the capabilities they've got. This is how we're running it in our game and it works great thus far. Magic items are rare and a big deal. All of them. Because they aren't just trinkets, they have real power.

This is especially true if going LoTRish; magic items are a big deal since they're unique and have unique powers - they do things impossible without magic. In LoTR, every item is an artifact.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-05-14, 06:02 PM
The reason I considered +1 weapons being rare and worldshaking comes from a suggestion for low-magic campaigns in the Arms and Equipment Guide:

"In a low-magic campaign, possessing even a +1 weapon would be a major boon . . . and a curse. A magic weapon would instantly draw the attention of anyone who saw it for what it was, including the character's enemies and other people who want to own it themselves. Entire kingdoms could be toppled in the name of finding (or repossessing) these relatively low-powered magic items."

I like the idea of making them artifacts though. Then they feel more special, and deserving of awe, but then there's character balance to think of too. What if they get a "Holy Avenger" (in quotations meaning it's an artifact weapon similar in powers to the holy avenger, but cranked up to eleven) and proceed to use it on evildoers? Sure they'd have to do a massive quest to get it, but once they've got it, they're likely going to want to use it.

Piedmon_Sama
2009-05-14, 06:08 PM
1. Use the Defense Bonus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/defenseBonus.htm). It will go some way (not all the way) to make up for a lack of magical enhancements to AC--without which, characters will be as easy to hit as walking barns after the low-levels.

2. Combine it with Armor as DR (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/armorAsDamageReduction.htm). Even though it says players should lose class bonuses when armored, let their defense bonus stack with the reduced bonus from Armor. This way, going unarmored isn't suicide but wearing it does carry tangible benefits.

3. If nobody wants to be a Healbot Cleric and magical healing will be hard to come by, consider Damage Conversion from Armor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/damageConversion.htm). Use the full value for converting damage to nonlethal, and keep track of nonlethal damage separately from what gets through. This will let your PCs be mostly functional and ready to fight after just a night's rest, or at least closer to it.

Using these rules will make combat slightly more complicated, in that players have a few more things to keep track of (subtracting DR from hits, keeping track of nonlethal damage). However it goes a long way to making a low-magic world work within Dungeons & Dragons, which is built along the expectations of magical armor, weapons, and healing being available shortly after level 5 if not sooner.

That's not all I do to run a low-magic game (my preferred type, by far), but it's what I use out of the Unearthed Arcana options.

Eldariel
2009-05-14, 06:13 PM
I like the idea of making them artifacts though. Then they feel more special, and deserving of awe, but then there's character balance to think of too. What if they get a "Holy Avenger" (in quotations meaning it's an artifact weapon similar in powers to the holy avenger, but cranked up to eleven) and proceed to use it on evildoers? Sure they'd have to do a massive quest to get it, but once they've got it, they're likely going to want to use it.

Yeah, we went through the "+1 Weapon is a big deal"-thing in our design sessions, and arrived at the conclusion that making it work like that would just be a friggin' huge strain on credibility unless the world is filled with creatures with DR/Magic...which in turn would be a huge strain on credibility of its own.

And when possessing one of the most coveted items in the world, it's much more awesome if the item actually does something, rather than is only awesome in name.


As far as character balance, let them go at it. They've earned the ability to use any magic gear they've got - as they all acquired it together, it should feel like a common achievement even if only one character can truly wield the Holy Avenger. It's still their common effort that's paying dividends now, and they're defeating evil because of that common effort, not only because the Paladin is awesome. They'll also have to mind the fact that the more they flaunt the item, the more people will try and kill them just to get their hands on it. So it all should be self-moderating. But I'll say, if they get the Holy Avenger, let them use it.

After all, that's the whole reason they acquired the item in the first place; because it has real power, power they need to deal with threat X, or power they want because of X. The items should almost automatically be plot devices on their own right; the party shouldn't just happen upon the Staff of the Magi "because they wanna play around with it". Defeating the Dragon and claiming the Staff from its hoard is an perilous adventure upon itself, one characters only take up in an hour of need (and one they need lots of support in to succeed).

Gorgondantess
2009-05-14, 07:04 PM
Well, if you're going for a LotR feel, I believe I could help you with that.
The first point is, don't go low-magic. Go subtle magic. Magic that doesn't look like magic.
For example- what is Saruman's greatest power? In D&D terms, I would call it an obscenely high wisdom and charisma. The wizards aren't wizards in the sense that we think of wizards- wizard is just a word for Maiar, which are essentially angels. What's the greatest magic we've seen Gandalf do? Not much. He's shot sparks out of his hands, lit up his staff to a very minor glow, and... nothing else. However, Gandalf is best known as a great, sagacious leader and advisor.
Let's look at the most powerful magic item the world has ever known: a ring of +8 charisma and greater invisibility. This is the ring, the one wars are fought over. The other rings of power, the ones that wars would probably also be fought over? I'd call it, in general, +2 charisma. That's it. Maybe throw in +2 wisdom as well.
For the weapons, I wouldn't say +1 swords are the artifacts; that's more like the westernesse swords that are found in the Barrows. For example, I'd call Orcrist a +1 orcbane sword, at the least. On top of that, one has to factor the power of the user into weapons as well; Sting isn't nearly as powerful as glamdring or the like, but in the hands of almost anyone but Sam even the latter blade probably couldn't even badly wound Shelob, let alone cripple her- she's killed armed and armored high elf lords without even taking a scratch. Sting is not unique in the property of channeling the user's power; most other magical blades do as well. As such, I'd add an enchantment to the more powerful magic swords giving an enhancement bonus equal to 1/2 the user's charisma score- those with strong wills are able to use such weapons more effectively. Nevertheless, even a regular man can still take advantage of the +1 bonus.
Now, if you want to use magic as well as magical beings, I'd advise limiting the spell list to cantrips, enchantment and divination, then remove about half of the more ostentatious spells, keeping things like augury and charm person, then slap ranger spell progression on a cleric, then make it spontaneous casting and swift actions for spells. Oh, I'd also keep a lot of the cleric spell list, things like bless and the like- those are suitably subtle, in my opinion.
Anyhow, that's just my two cents on LotR like magic.:smallbiggrin:

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-05-14, 07:09 PM
E6 is a great variant for a low-magic/low-power setting. (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=352719) I've used it and most of the people I play with really like it. Incantations (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/incantations.htm) really help out when it comes to out-of-combat magic that's otherwise too high level for any single character to cast.

I've been considering running a low-magic game in which every class that gets spells higher than 6th level is banned. The most powerful spellcasters you'll encounter are Bards, Adepts from the DMG, and Magewrights from the Eberron Campaign Setting. I wouldn't allow martial adepts, though a combat-focused character could take Suel Arcanamach and become a potent spellcaster. Psion, Wilder, and similar classes would likewise be banned, but Psychic Warrior would still be available. Item creation feats would be just as easy to take since they're mostly dependent on caster level rather than the level of available spells, though characters may have to work together to meet all the prerequisites to create an item. Spellcasting classes wouldn't be as powerful as in a standard game, so they wouldn't be as popular, but they would still exist.

Fortinbras
2009-05-14, 07:27 PM
So how exaclty do you go about making items so rare and deciding what people should get?

Also is there a good system for converting a campaign over to low magic?

Decoy Lockbox
2009-05-14, 07:37 PM
I have a friend who is nuts about low-magic settings; thing is, hes never found one that really works out all that well. Normally he just caves in to player pressure eventually and starts giving out more magic loot.

What everyone is saying about the magic items is true though. Hell, a +1 sword isn't really that impressive, no matter how you put it. But imagine if there were, say 10 magic swords in the entire world, all of them hidden in dungeons, dragon's stomachs and ruins, some lost to time, all except one...and this one turns all your melee attacks into touch attacks, in addition to providing a damage increase. Lets say that this sword has somehow found its way into the possession of a mighty warrior. Now, facing that guy on the battlefield would be a legitimately terrifying proposition for anyone, man or beast! Best yet, whoever managed to somehow slay this guy would instantly earn a name for himself, AND gain the use of the sword, as well as the attention of the next guy trying to make a name for himself.

From what I've seen of 4th edition, making a low magic setting seems like it would be a bit easyer than with 3rd edition. Players are expected to periodically get a higher plus on their weapon/implement, armor and cloak/amulet, but aside from that, the math of the system doesn't really care what else happens. So you could, for example, give out free +2's to everyone's defenses, AC, "to hit" and damage at level 6, which is the minimum level of +2 weapons/armor/gear. Characters wouldn't have as many nifty magic gadgets as normal, but the inherent numbers of the system would continue to function, I think.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-05-14, 07:40 PM
E6 is a great variant for a low-magic/low-power setting. (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=352719) I've used it and most of the people I play with really like it. Incantations (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/incantations.htm) really help out when it comes to out-of-combat magic that's otherwise too high level for any single character to cast.

I've been considering running a low-magic game in which every class that gets spells higher than 6th level is banned. The most powerful spellcasters you'll encounter are Bards, Adepts from the DMG, and Magewrights from the Eberron Campaign Setting. I wouldn't allow martial adepts, though a combat-focused character could take Suel Arcanamach and become a potent spellcaster. Psion, Wilder, and similar classes would likewise be banned, but Psychic Warrior would still be available. Item creation feats would be just as easy to take since they're mostly dependent on caster level rather than the level of available spells, though characters may have to work together to meet all the prerequisites to create an item. Spellcasting classes wouldn't be as powerful as in a standard game, so they wouldn't be as popular, but they would still exist.

As tempting as E6 sounds, I'm thinking Serpents and Sewers is more to my liking, and my brother agrees with me.

Eldariel
2009-05-14, 07:41 PM
So how exaclty do you go about making items so rare and deciding what people should get?

Also is there a good system for converting a campaign over to low magic?

Converting a campaign? Nooot likely. Unless the party and the world doesn't have magic items anyways, and there are no spellcasters in the party, the change is just too drastic. It also requires rule changes to cover the lack of healing (or any injury grinds the game to a halt as the party stops for a week or two to recover), stat advancement (standard form really accounts for magic items - it's a good idea to accelerate it a bit) and AC (normally, you derive AC from multiple magic item types; without magic items, a class-based dodge bonus [well, it should be there anyways] is absolutely necessary). Such changes are just too drastic for an existing campaign.

Starting a new game though, that works just fine. Magic items; well, it's really simple - money can't buy them and they usually aren't there in treasure. If you want more variety in items, use more different "craft"-levels than standard and masterwork - add some use-related bonuses to dwarfcraft level items (rename them if it's a dwarfless world), use item templates [DMGII] and so on to add depth to items (especially weapons and armor) without magic.

Then make magic items focal points of adventures and big movers and motives in the world. The few that exist are jealously guarded or otherwise requiring perilous trips to acquire. The few that exist are extremely powerful (just look at the party and decide what kind of items would make good additions) and thus they change dynamics entirely when around. Crafting is practically impossible for all but the most exceptional individuals (obviously none of the PCs should be capable - could mostly be monsters' domain) and so the only way to really acquire magic items is to either get one nobody else has been able to breach to since it was sealed away, or get one from a person already possessing one. It's easy to control exactly what the PCs can get from that point (and control you should).

Myrmex
2009-05-14, 07:44 PM
So how exaclty do you go about making items so rare and deciding what people should get?

I would create two or three pieces of equipment that seem thematically appropriate for each character, come up with backstories for each, and where they can be found in the campaign world- who has them, who wants them, who is looking for them, etc.

I would also include artifacts that NPCs have- Cuthbert's Cudgel, Galadriel's Mirror, etc. These would be made for the most important NPCs. Jeff the Butcher wouldn't have an artifact, but Warlord Blackfist, Iron Duke of the North might have a really sweet sword, or a magic mirror with a fragment of Hextor bound to it that advises his War Council. If the PCs end up with the mirror, either through subterfuge or martial prowess, well, they now have an aspect of Hextor urging them to became dark and terrible tyrants.

For the equipment I would custom make for PCs, I would put clues, stories, hints, plot hooks for each in the campaign. One PC may just be a guy who like swords, and is following stories of a really epic blade he wants to get his hands on. Another PC might want to save his people from the cruel dragon that oppresses them. In the former case, finding the sword can be a quest in and of itself. In the latter, the PCs would get the dragon's hide to make really sweet armor out of.

Of course, depending on the actions of the PCs, certain organizations would come into possession of artifacts if the PCs choose not to go after them, or talk to much about what they've discovered.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-05-14, 07:46 PM
This means I'd need to know who the characters were, their backstories and have the world completely made before peppering it with magic items, right?

Eldariel
2009-05-14, 07:52 PM
This means I'd need to know who the characters were, their backstories and have the world completely made before peppering it with magic items, right?

You can add magic items during world creation. Just because they are there doesn't mean the PCs would learn of them. And seeing how hard they are to acquire, the PCs are not going to "happen" upon them accidentially.

You can then build the story from there. Maybe they never get any. Maybe they'll go on multiple quests to acquire as many as possible (or die trying). That's up to you and the players to work out in the story.


But yeah, in low magic worlds, pretty much everyone uses similar basic combat gear (armor and weapon of some kind), so they make good items as they're pretty universal. Regardless of the party, they're going to be relevant. And then generic stuff like amulets of mind controlling or rings of form alteration; the items aren't only strong, but they're also the kind that many characters can make use of them so the PC make-up doesn't really affect what kinds of items you can work around with (unless you use ones limited by class, but those limitations are all up to you too and things you can change in play to match the party if need be).


Certainly it's possible to design the whole thing around the PCs, but I'd think that takes some of the novelty of the magic items away. Part of the excitement of the artifacts is that you didn't make 'em, so they can have a lot of powers you wouldn't add to a magic item you make yourself.

Myrmex
2009-05-14, 08:14 PM
This means I'd need to know who the characters were, their backstories and have the world completely made before peppering it with magic items, right?

You just need the big chunks. Come up with a reasonably cohesive idea of the geography and political powers (mountains here with dwarves, forest here with elves, flat land with corn fields, the barren wastes with orc raiders), then the conflicts will sort of show up naturally. Well, here with the mountains are the allied dwarves and gnomes, but they have problems with goblins. Here the elves and humans are in conflict over something or other, maybe lumberjacks are taking their trees. Basic things like that.

Then, if say a PC expresses interest in killing a dragon, you could have it turn out the goblins are being displace by a kobold cult to Tiamat who recently moved in with Anglacan the Black, a black dragon, who has learned of a large elemental gem somewhere deep beneath his volcanic lair.

That's one way to do it- just have causal chains that unfold as the PCs investigate.

Another way is to come up with some cool ideas for locations- an old tomb with a zombie king who is raising a legion of ghouls, a temple that was pushed up out of the sea by an underwater earthquake, a strange traveling fair that showed up overnight at the outskirts of town, stuff that you think your players would find interesting. Then just find ways to get your players to go from one place to the next.

Certain themes will naturally come out. Maybe they will discover that the troll infested warrens they are exploring are are an ancient Yuan-ti temple venerating the long dead Ha-Naga that dwelled there. The party sage will uncover some writing on the wall, and realize that the missing explorer gnomish Igendab the Bold had been through here.

Either the party will leave it at that, or they will press the issue. If they decide to go onto the next adventure (which should, in some way, advance whatever the current goal in the story arc is), they may find more evidence of this Igendab, and will become curious. It will turn out that Igendab is looking for an ancient artifact, and has traveled far to the north to find the fabled Chamber of Bone. They can choose to follow- if they do, you should begin statting up the Chamber of Bone. Maybe it's an actual chamber, maybe it is a helm made out of the shrunken head of a Beholder that allows you to to do sweet stuff when you wear it. Or the artifact can be anything that goes well with the party. Maybe the Warblade gets a new sword.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-05-14, 09:54 PM
Here's the overarching idea that I've come up with:

The Empire that has unified the continent for as long as anyone can remember is finally starting to fracture after years of decay. Several groups are trying to gain independence, whether its a unified racial effort, or the efforts of a province to be their own nation, or a church wanting to set up a theocracy, etc.

The PCs for some reason I have yet to come up with, find themselves in the employ of these differing factions, acting as a strike team for several military operations. They can choose to assist the Empire in reuniting and solidifying itself, help one of the rogue factions solidify their own nation, or hire themselves out as mercenaries, changing sides whenever the money gets better on the other side.

As the PCs distinguish themselves, they're sent on missions that take them to isolated dungeons, like the Tomb of Horrors and other such places, where they discover cryptic messages speaking of death and emptiness coming to consume the souls of all. In many of these places, the dead walk, and since the war is going on, if the dead decided to walk, they'd have an army in no time.

The PCs realize that something's going on, and begin to investigate the source of the undead. They find out its due to some new and popular cult that has emerged during the war that they haven't worked for. The cult plans on summoning a "dark moon," which has now appeared in the sky, to sterilize the world of life, making it a world that has been subsumed into a growing, multidimensional empire of undead.

The PCs bring this info to the warring factions, who unify to prevent the cult from achieving its goal. They learn that the cult is based out of a spire that has been secretly built that acts as a conduit for the dark moon's power. The unified armies fight to get to the spire, hoping to destroy it before the dark moon gets too close to do its duty. Unfortunately, the moon has come just as they get there, and a portal has opened at the peak of the spire that leads to the dark moon's surface.

The PCs are then visited by some divine being or group of divine beings who sacrifice themselves to give the PCs a divine spark, that must be plunged into the greatest crater on the dark moon to destroy it. The PCs then fight their way to the top of the spire, and go through the portal to the dark moon's surface, where they face an avatar of the dark moon. When they kill the avatar, the crater opens like a mouth in the ground. They chuck the spark in and flee through the portal. The spark causes the moon to collapse in on itself, and everything connected to it gets sucked into the growing vortex. The spire, cult temples, undead and cultists, all are sucked into the vortex, which closes as soon as no trace of the dark moon's influence is left.

The PCs (assuming they survive) are hailed as the greatest heroes the world has ever known. Unfortunately, the world has been devastated by the dark moon's presence, and it will take a long time to rebuild. The campaign would end on a hopeful note, setting the stage for a sequel campaign if the players so desire it.

I got some inspiration for this from the chapter on Atropos in Elder Evils, as well as from Star Trek and Fable 2. Is it too "high magic," or would a low magic setting be able to fit a story like this just fine?

Roderick_BR
2009-05-15, 12:03 AM
Quick ideas off the top of my mind:
1. Leave full casters for NPCs. Not many player will really complain, as keeping track of dozens of spells is boring sometimes.
2. Allow half-casters, like paladins and rangers, as normal. They can provide some casting to help the group, without going into high-magic (except for a few spells, like Holy Sword). Some spells can just be reflufed as special powers.
3. Allow "partial" casters, like bards and the npc class Adept. "low-level" casters are not uncommon in some classic stories.
4. Allow "mundane" versions of magic itens, like healing salves for healing, thunderstones, and the likes.
5. Itens could have non-magic bonuses (+1, +2, etc), that high-level (legendary) smiths created. That would make up for not having real magic itens easily available.
6. Real magic weapons could be made to always have a magic effect aside from the starting +1. Frostbite, the freezing blade (+1 icy), sounds cooler than Toughie, the axe that hits a bit harder (+2).

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-05-15, 03:17 PM
I definately think I'll be using the Serpents and Sewers rules, actually. Can the campaign idea I've come up with fit in a Serpents and Sewers campaign?

Satyr
2009-05-15, 04:11 PM
Can the campaign idea I've come up with fit in a Serpents and Sewers campaign?

I would say that you could probably every campaign you could play with D&D could also be played with Serpents and Sewers, but since I am the main author of this, I am quite biased in this regard.

But in detail:


The Empire that has unified the continent for as long as anyone can remember is finally starting to fracture after years of decay. Several groups are trying to gain independence, whether its a unified racial effort, or the efforts of a province to be their own nation, or a church wanting to set up a theocracy, etc.

A classic. The way this sounds, the different groups are all a bit ambvalent, yes? As Serpents and Sewers put only minimal focus on the alignment system, the default setting would be that organisations like your empire is not intrisically corrupt or naturally good, but has its good and bad sides and representatives. There are perhaps a few idealists who want something better for everyone, and perhaps a few warlords who participate in the civil war for their own power, but there is not one group which embodies only positive aspects.


The PCs for some reason I have yet to come up with, find themselves in the employ of these differing factions, acting as a strike team for several military operations. They can choose to assist the Empire in reuniting and solidifying itself, help one of the rogue factions solidify their own nation, or hire themselves out as mercenaries, changing sides whenever the money gets better on the other side.

Smells like a sandbox. I se no problems here, as long as the players are willing to take an active role in the plot development. But this is mostly a question of players, not systems.
For a basic plot hook, try something like the Black Company ("Once you were just mercenaries who joined the company to break with the past. But with the time, the company became more than just a ragtag band of mercenaries for you. It became home. It became family.") Than start with a bang (it's always a good idea to start a campaign spectaclular and breathtakingly awesome. You will probably not be able to keep up to this, but the first impression is likely to determine the moot of the whole campaign. And on the level of the PC relations, a high external pressure will weld them together) and kill of half the Company in a terrible battle, leaving the PC'S as significant and influential members of it, who need money to bring their company back up and to support the survivng dependants of dead friends.


As the PCs distinguish themselves, they're sent on missions that take them to isolated dungeons, like the Tomb of Horrors and other such places, where they discover cryptic messages speaking of death and emptiness coming to consume the souls of all. In many of these places, the dead walk, and since the war is going on, if the dead decided to walk, they'd have an army in no time.

The PCs realize that something's going on, and begin to investigate the source of the undead. They find out its due to some new and popular cult that has emerged during the war that they haven't worked for. The cult plans on summoning a "dark moon," which has now appeared in the sky, to sterilize the world of life, making it a world that has been subsumed into a growing, multidimensional empire of undead.


Yes. is there anythng sweeter than the forshadowing of the end of the world as we know it? If you do this right, you could probably bring the campaign to a new level, with a threat that is able to dwarf the political struggles the characters have dealt with before.
I don't know the Tomb of Horros, so I cannot say much about this module.


The PCs bring this info to the warring factions, who unify to prevent the cult from achieving its goal. They learn that the cult is based out of a spire that has been secretly built that acts as a conduit for the dark moon's power. The unified armies fight to get to the spire, hoping to destroy it before the dark moon gets too close to do its duty. Unfortunately, the moon has come just as they get there, and a portal has opened at the peak of the spire that leads to the dark moon's surface.

Make the PC's unify the fractions. Let them engage in the field og politics, after they gain the support of one influential fraction. Let them fight aginst a smear campaign against themselves and Cult spies to get to their aim of a (re-) united force to face the struggle.
Then make the battle epic, let the players beliefe that this is going to be the end of the campaign and that then surprise them with another shift of the campaign focus.

The bittersweet ending is pretty much obligatory when the stakes are high enough. The victory would feel to cheap and the threat as overhyped if there are no significant losses as well.



I got some inspiration for this from the chapter on Atropos in Elder Evils, as well as from Star Trek and Fable 2. Is it too "high magic," or would a low magic setting be able to fit a story like this just fine?

I think it would work wonderfully. Serpents and Sewers was never meant to be a game of no magic, but a system for setings where some characters are not intrisically better just because they can use spells. And where the individual player character (I usually use the term heroes for them, in the S&S context) is more important than the equipment he carries. That is pretty much the intention of the game and in this context, it works best. On their own, S&S characters are unlikely to become nigh godlike creatures, but they are overall competent and heroic.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-05-15, 04:17 PM
Also, I have a rough idea of what everyone wants to be:

My brother: An elf Lone Wolf Pathfinder, basically a mercenary scout, bodyguard and commando

My brother's friend: A Cleric, serving as a bishop. He's been sent by his god to clean out corruption in the church and put a righteous person on the throne of the empire. Likely going down the Path of the Martyr.

My brother's other friend: A halfling Thief.

My friend: A human Thief.

I might have two more people interested in joining, but I'm not sure yet.

Satyr
2009-05-15, 04:34 PM
Normally I run Serpents and Sewers as Gestalt games, because I like the extra layer. And you should be aware that there are a few synergy effects between classes, so some of them are a bit dull without the combination (especially the Defender, but the noble is another example for a character that works best when it is combined with another class).

Kylarra
2009-05-15, 04:48 PM
How are your friends going to feel about walking about with a veritable "god in human flesh" as you've described level 1 clerics?

Berserk Monk
2009-05-15, 04:54 PM
Don't limit magic. Why? Because magic equals healing, and without it, you die. You know what else? Magic equals resurrection. The only way I could see you getting around this is if you give your PCs a magical item that can heal the party members with infinite charges and it can be used by anyone (you said clerics are out and they and druids are like the healing class required for each adventuring group).

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-05-15, 07:43 PM
Don't limit magic. Why? Because magic equals healing, and without it, you die. You know what else? Magic equals resurrection. The only way I could see you getting around this is if you give your PCs a magical item that can heal the party members with infinite charges and it can be used by anyone (you said clerics are out and they and druids are like the healing class required for each adventuring group).

As much as I agree with you Beserk Monk, that's part of the reason my brother's been pushing for a low-magic campaign for a while now. He feels that having death be permanent will add an extra dimension of challenge to the game. Druids and clerics are not out, as per the Serpents and Sewers rule.

As to Kylarra's question, my brother at least is completely cool with it, since he thinks it'll be awesome, and he'll probably talk the others into thinking it's awesome too. He and his friends are pretty close and I believe they'll try to make it work. I think I'm going to refine the way magic is viewed. The person who's going to be playing the cleric wanted to play a bishop, and that's what he's going to start as. People who can use divine magic are not gods in human flesh, but rather especially blessed and faithful people. Because of his divine gift, he'd advance especially quickly in the church, to the point where he would technically wield a great deal of temporal power (bishops in the Middle Ages wielded a considerable amount of power.) Because of this, he'll likely end up the leader of any group made, the other characters either being mercenaries hired by the church to protect him, or members of the faithful who seek to assist him (especially anyone wanting to play a paladin).

This guy's gonna be big news, but not in the same sense as a god in human flesh might be. He's most definately going to be canonized after his death, and boy do I have a death in mind for him! :smallamused:

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-05-15, 07:45 PM
Normally I run Serpents and Sewers as Gestalt games, because I like the extra layer. And you should be aware that there are a few synergy effects between classes, so some of them are a bit dull without the combination (especially the Defender, but the noble is another example for a character that works best when it is combined with another class).

Isn't gestalt rather high-powered, even if there isn't as much magic? I don't want to overbalance things here. And isn't that why Heroic Paths are written in there?

Eldariel
2009-05-15, 07:45 PM
Don't limit magic. Why? Because magic equals healing, and without it, you die. You know what else? Magic equals resurrection. The only way I could see you getting around this is if you give your PCs a magical item that can heal the party members with infinite charges and it can be used by anyone (you said clerics are out and they and druids are like the healing class required for each adventuring group).

Huh? That's simple; make Healing Salve or a similar mundane item commonly available. Hell, people may actually use the Heal-skill in a limited magic campaign. And dead should stay dead; makes the players make much more rational solutions when they can't count on getting immediately patched up if they get hurt/die.

Kylarra
2009-05-15, 07:52 PM
As to Kylarra's question, my brother at least is completely cool with it, since he thinks it'll be awesome, and he'll probably talk the others into thinking it's awesome too. He and his friends are pretty close and I believe they'll try to make it work. I think I'm going to refine the way magic is viewed. The person who's going to be playing the cleric wanted to play a bishop, and that's what he's going to start as. People who can use divine magic are not gods in human flesh, but rather especially blessed and faithful people. Because of his divine gift, he'd advance especially quickly in the church, to the point where he would technically wield a great deal of temporal power (bishops in the Middle Ages wielded a considerable amount of power.) Because of this, he'll likely end up the leader of any group made, the other characters either being mercenaries hired by the church to protect him, or members of the faithful who seek to assist him (especially anyone wanting to play a paladin).

This guy's gonna be big news, but not in the same sense as a god in human flesh might be. He's most definately going to be canonized after his death, and boy do I have a death in mind for him! :smallamused:I'm just quoting you from what you were aiming for in the OP


A level 1 cleric would probably be considered the god of the faith in human flesh.


So by extrapolation, your friend is playing one of a very rare breed which means that everyone is out to get him, use him, befriend him, etc.

Even with S&S's variant on healing magic, you're not going to be able to have the low-magic world you want with a cleric in the group.

You're better off nulling all full casters and only allowing the partials to accomodate the fluff you were talking about.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-05-15, 08:01 PM
I suppose my opinions of just what low magic means have been slightly altered after reading Serpents and Sewers.

Strictly speaking, I'm all for not having low magic. I'm just using the Serpents and Sewers homebrew so that it LOOKS like it's low magic, to satisfy my stubborn brother. Since he's sold on Serpents and Sewers, I can work within that system to try and allow more manageable magic.

Besides, he's not the only one with the divine gift. I'd assume other religions would have one as well, and each church's Pope analogue would most certainly be a higher-level cleric or battle cleric.

Besides, with the undead-heavy campaign I'm planning, a cleric is a wise investment.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-05-16, 12:13 AM
So what I'm hearing is if I'm looking for REAL low-magic, Serpents and Sewers ain't it?

Kylarra
2009-05-16, 12:22 AM
It really depends on what you mean by "low magic" and if your players are prepared to deal with the repercussions of being a full casting class in such a world.

Satyr
2009-05-16, 01:39 AM
Isn't gestalt rather high-powered, even if there isn't as much magic? I don't want to overbalance things here.

You try to tell a story about "the greatest heroes the world has ever known". Do you think that this doesn't sound high-powered?
And really, Gestalt is not that bad from a power point of view. The characters do not gain more actions, they cannot do more under time pressure, they have only a bigger range of possible actions and they can compensate their weaknesses a bit better. The problematic part of Gestalt - double caster progression - is very rare in Serpents and Sewers.
And, on the other hand, it becomes very easy to create multi-facetted characters which aren't shoehorned into a stereotype as easy. At least for me, this versatility and the chance to adapt a character to the player's personal witshs and exact concept is much more important than any issues of character power.


And isn't that why Heroic Paths are written in there?
Yes. Until someone had a train of thoughts like "Gestalt is fun. Heroic paths are fun. Ergp, combining Gestalt with heroic paths is funē." And so we did. And he was right.


So what I'm hearing is if I'm looking for REAL low-magic, Serpents and Sewers ain't it?

That really depends on were you set the average and what you conscider "medium magic" to be like. If Eberon or the Realms is a medium magic setting for you, than Serpents and Sewers is pretty low on the magic scale. If you take something like the Lord of the Rings as a standard, S&S has plenty of spellcasters and divine interventions.
The thing is, Low magic is not a fixed issue. It is a very subjective one, that depends greatly on expectations and how you use the rules at hand.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-05-16, 09:14 AM
Thanks for clearing that up Satyr. I think I'll give gestalt a spin. It'll definately add some versitality to the game, and spice up the two people who want to be rogues.

Somebloke
2009-05-16, 02:57 PM
I'm trying to make a low-magic campaign for my brother and our friends, but I'm not sure where to begin, or where to draw the lines. I'm thinking of allowing Tome of Battle and the Factotum to be used, but I'm not sure if that would throw off the balance of the game. I want it so a simple +1 sword is such a big deal that it has its own name and entire kingdoms will fight over it.

I do want there to be spellcasting, but I want to limit it heavily. How much magic do you see being used in The Lord of the Rings? That's sort of the image I'm going for. If a wizard somehow becomes involved, even if they're level 1, that person is going to be instantly famous. A level 1 cleric would probably be considered the god of the faith in human flesh.

I've got some rudimentary ideas for the campaign itself. First off, the centerpiece is going to be this large empire that's in the midst of civil war and on the brink of collapse, with the PCs having to choose whether they fight to help re-unify the empire, or with one of the rebel factions to gain their independence, and eventually saving the world.

I'm also going to put them through the Tomb of Horrors, as provided by the WOTC website.

Any advice on where to start? Does anyone here have any tips for making low-magic campaigns and worlds? For campaigns and worlds in general?

Thank you very much. :smallsmile:Somewhere WAY (I think it might have been thread purged) back in the homebrew thread is my 'Complete Low Magic" with some 3 new classes to replace the vancian magic users.

The cheaper solution, however, is to limit magic classes to the Bard, Paladin, Factorum and Warlock (swap the bard's song abilities for clerical domains if you want him to be more generic). Maybe the sorcerer, wu jen, favoured soul or shugenja as well if you want a 'limited but powerful' class, making sure you ban scrolls and wands. Limit the number of magic-using classes by one or two (but never more than one sor/wu jen/fav.s/shug).

Take away the Ranger's spells and give them some sort of compensation. Add the swashbuckler from The Complete Warrior as a base class to give more non-magic options- also see the various noble classes floating around (Rokugan has one).

Use humans only, preferably with Background (or Rokugan lineage) bonus feats to give some degree of player choice (for me, fantastic races ruin the a low magic campaign)

Oh, and give everyone 4/1 extra skill points, since these take on new importance.

That's the cheap version, and it gives you a lot of scope. Remember that the four nonmagic classes have a lot of gaming potential on their own.

The complicated version requires a great deal of work...at least mine did. 40+ pages, using the warlock and bard to create sorcerer, inspired (ie. religious) and alchemist classes.

Somebloke
2009-05-16, 03:04 PM
Oh. And under no circumstances use the Conan D20 gaming system classes. They are awful.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-05-16, 06:30 PM
I was not aware there was a Conan d20. Thanks for the warning.

I'll stick with Serpents and Sewers though.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-05-17, 12:53 AM
What would be a manageable number of factions to work with? I have some rough ideas of ones that will definately be making it in there, but I think they won't be enough.

The Empire: Basically like Tamriel and specifically Cyrodiil at the end of Oblivion. It's lost a lot of its strength and is trying to keep the civil war under control. The emperor is still quite young, and is relatively weak compared to the other faction leaders, which is why they're rebelling in the first place.

The Empire's Religion: Initially the Empire was a theocracy dedicated to some good god, but over time it became more secular as the church became more and more detached from the world. Today, the church is divided into two camps. The corrupt sleazebags who mostly run it now, and the true believers who want to sweep out the corruption and usher in a new golden age. The person playing the cleric PC wants to be one of the latter group, and even engage in a bit of kingmaking to put a strong, just and pious leader on the throne. He's become fascinated with the Catholic Church of late, so he wants to play the idea of a politically involved clergyman to the hilt.

The Main Human Rebels: These people are mainly disgruntled nobles and commoners who've become fed up with the Empire's laws, and are rebelling so they can do what they want. Law is not as stable with them, and they're not as organized as the Empire. However, they also outnumber the Empire. Should they get their act together, they'll get their way.

The Dwarves: Basically a "the dwarves are for the dwarves" group. They want to secede and retreat into their tunnels so people leave them alone and they can keep all their wealth for themselves. Like Thorin and other dwarves in Tolkien's mythos.

I can't help but think there should be more factions than this. A continent-spanning empire is going to be big and diverse, so naturally these wouldn't be the only groups fighting. The thing is, I'm lacking in inspiration, and concerned about trying to run politics on that kind of scale.

DaltonTrigger
2009-05-17, 01:13 AM
Among the disgruntled nobles, there could be a second group. An Illuminati sort of thing, much more organized and dangerous. they may play to being on the emperor's side, even going so far as to help squander the other rebels, to put themselves ahead and in place for their telling blow.

Alternate religious sects could be emerging, preaching the words of new gods. Or ancient ones. Or false ones. Or vile ones. Whatever. A new religious sect may blame the established churches for the recent darkness and demand everybody move to this new cause or face certain doom. Such a following could attract quite a few followers who would be detrimental to the kingdom. For bonus points, avoid the cliche of making them evil. They may have the best of intentions but are just plain making things harder on everybody. Or maybe some ancient god really is making a comeback. Is this god for good or for evil? Stay tuned and find out.

I know it's low magic, but are there say, magical academies or something to that effect where scholars and mages gather? That could make another faction. They could be doing anything you want. Maybe they're manipulating events behind the war to further their own end. Maybe they're trying to find a way within their abilities to minimize the damage and stop the war as soon as possible. Maybe they just want to be left alone and are Switzerland.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-05-17, 01:42 AM
Oh, I forgot about the main enemy.

The Lotus Cult: This "religion" is fairly new, and has erected white marble towers, carved with images of lotus flowers in most of the major cities. They are made up of wealthy, influential people throughout the factions, so they don't take sides in the war. However, people who join the cult vanish without a trace. It's later revealed that they're used as slaves to build a giant "lotus-spire" that stretches to the sky to serve as a beacon for the coming Dark Moon. The leaders of the Lotus Cult are actually advance scouts for a multidimensional undead empire, and they seek to exterminate all life on the world to make it part of their growing dominion. Kinda like the Necrons, if you take my meaning.

And there would be magic colleges, yes. Likely academies for mages in the service of the empire. Perhaps that's why they'd want to rebel. In order to practice arcane magic you have to have imperial sanction, and obey an ethical code to maintain the benefits of said sanction. Arcanists who break these rules are forced to go into hiding as criminals, and that's actually why the Tomb of Horrors was built in my campaign world. Its builder broke imperial magic law and built himself a tomb out in the wilderness to practice necromancy as he pleased. Because of these laws, and the current weakness of the emperor, the arcanists are rebelling so they can do as they please. Some want to rule, others want to experiment freely, and some just want to be left alone. I imagine them as kind of Objectivist in nature, beliving themselves above the petty shackles of morality that the empire placed on them and the constant whines for help from non-magic users.

Waspinator
2009-05-17, 01:46 AM
You might also think about Iron Heroes.

"You are not your magic weapon and armor. You are not your spell buffs. You are not how much gold you have, or how many times you've been raised from the dead. When a Big Bad Demon snaps your sword in two, you do not cry because that was your holy avenger. You leap onto its back, climb up to its head, and punch it in the eye, then get a new damn sword off of the next humanoid you headbutt to death."

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-05-17, 01:48 AM
Wouldn't that necessitate buying more books though?

Waspinator
2009-05-17, 02:31 AM
Yes, but I thought I'd at least throw the idea out there.

Satyr
2009-05-17, 07:40 AM
I'll stick with Serpents and Sewers though.

Thank you. You have just made an old satyr very happy.



Oh. And under no circumstances use the Conan D20 gaming system classes. They are awful.

I never found Conan D20 that bad. It is not one of the overseen jewels of D20, like Midnight or to some degree Iron Heroes, and llike every setting which was published for more than one system, a comparison is inevitable, but as long as no one wants to play any form of spellcaster, it works
well enough.


I can't help but think there should be more factions than this. A continent-spanning empire is going to be big and diverse, so naturally these wouldn't be the only groups fighting. The thing is, I'm lacking in inspiration, and concerned about trying to run politics on that kind of scale.

You can easily have more than one rebel group. You could have two or more rivaling important nobles who strive for more power or independence. You could have a rise of peasants who want to get rid of serfdom and the power of the nobles, you could have one or two merchant guilds or bank clans who want to end the war, as some factions have borrowed heavily from them and now the guild fears to lose their investment if their debtors lose the conflict; you could have small warlords, who just want to carve out a territory for themselves and to rise in power; you could have a true shisma in the church and conflicts between church fractions (the traditionalists, who see the church mostly as a tool of power, the faithful, who regard the faith higher than the church's political role, and the fanatic ofshoot who just want to purge everything "heretic" and to reestablish the theocratic rule) and orders as well. You could have third countries who try to prolong the civil war in the Empire to weaken the potential rival, or who invade the border territories to conquer new territories; you could have other foreign countires who support one or the other faction because of family bonds or because they fear that the civil war could be infective (especially in the case of peasant uprises).

Somebloke
2009-05-17, 11:09 AM
I never found Conan D20 that bad. It is not one of the overseen jewels of D20, like Midnight or to some degree Iron Heroes, and llike every setting which was published for more than one system, a comparison is inevitable, but as long as no one wants to play any form of spellcaster, it works
well enough.



Hmmm...I've played it through two occasions, and found many of the classes restrictive and somewhat overpowered. I also felt that none of the potential for skills scope needed for a low-magic setting was there. But I suppose it is a matter of taste. I've never played Iron Heroes but I have heard wonderful things.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-05-17, 11:50 AM
What do you think would be a good upper limit for the number of factions. You know, just enough so that the players have a wide variety of choices, but not so much that it gets hard to keep track of?

Satyr
2009-05-17, 12:14 PM
What do you think would be a good upper limit for the number of factions. You know, just enough so that the players have a wide variety of choices, but not so much that it gets hard to keep track of?

13. Odd numbers are better, because that doesn't look as artificial, 13 groups offer enough variability to include a broad number of different groups without needing to repeat themselves, and it offers enough strive to justify a long, chaotic civil war.

the Imperator and his direct retainers (want to reinstall the status quo ante)
powerful Noble House #1 (wants to become Caliph instead of the Caliph)
Powerful Noble House #2 (Separatists)
Powerful Noble House #3 (wants to support the Imperator and make it a puppet of them)
Church Oligarchs (want to uphold the power of the church)
Church purists (want to get rid of the corruption and intrigues within the church)
church fanatics (want to re-establish theocracy)
revolting peasants (want to get rid of serfdom)
Petty Warlord #1 -15 (small time thugs, marauders and better bandits; want to get rich and profit from the war)
The dwarves (want to be left alone)
The filthy rich merchant guild (want to protect their investments/debtors so they do not lose money)
The rival kingdom (wants to prolong the fighting, support the separatists and ultimately conquer a part of the empire)
The Lotus Cult (has its own agenda)

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-05-17, 03:47 PM
The Empire's continent-spanning though. What rival nation would there be?

Satyr
2009-05-18, 12:47 AM
I don't know. It's your campaign setting. A similar empire on a neighboring continent?

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-05-18, 10:21 AM
That's true. Tamriel has its Akavir, so I shouldn't just think there's only one continent on the planet.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-05-20, 01:39 AM
Okay, here's a breakdown of the factions, based on the suggestions of Satyr and other suggestions:

The Bright Empire: This faction represents the current Bright Emperor, Avisto the Oceanborn, and those that remain loyal to him. Avisto is still young and inexperienced, which is why his response to the current crisis has been panicked and fumbled. Were it not for his advisors helping and guiding him, he would most certainly snap from the stress. If the PC's support Avisto, they may be able to help him grow a backbone and he might be able to re-establish control, or they may convince him to bow out gracefully and give the crown to someone more deserving.

House Selekar: One of the three most powerful noble houses in the Empire, House Selekar has long produced the Empire's greatest generals and military tacticians. They openly despise the current Emperor for undisclosed reasons. This has hurt the Empire militarily, since many of their generals sided with their House, rather than with their Emperor. House Selekar seeks to take the throne themselves.

House Qelani: The second of the great noble houses, House Qelani is primarily made up of elves and a few half-elves. They exude the typical elven arrogance, and they believe that the time of the Empire passed long ago. They seek to separate from the Empire and form an elven kingdom, something that has not existed on the continent in several centuries. Some of the older Qelanis can still remember when the Empire annexed their kingdom, a memory that still stings the House to this day.

House Godwinson: The only noble house that seems to have any respect for the current regime, House Godwinson openly supports Emperor Avisto, and has many members in his court. Unfortunately, their intentions for the young Emperor are not completely sincere. They seek to control the Emperor and through him, the Empire. They openly assign mercenaries to aid in securing the Empire's power, but covertly hire the same mercenaries to dispatch obstacles to them in the court, so they have unlimited access to the Emperor's ear, and the Emperor's true Loyalists can't offer a differing opinion.

The Church of The Light: In the distant past, the Bright Emperor ruled by the will of the gods themselves, whose earthly followers were known as the Church of the Light, founded by the ancient prophet known only as "The Radiant One." However, the Church eventually became more and more detached from their original teachings, so much so that the Emperor eventually severed ties with them. They became too focused on worldly things, and many priests are more concerned with money than with the souls of their parishioners. They mainly seek to maintain the status quo. They support the Emperor, but they resent him for the ancient separation.

The Illuminated: The Illuminated are a sect of the Church of the Light who believe (rightly so) that the Church has strayed very far from its original message. These people seek to clean out the corruption that has infected the Church and to help the Empire find peace. They believe that Avisto, while a good man, is not fit to rule by the will of the gods, so they currently search the land for a Chosen One to present to Avisto as his replacement.

"Pope" Augustine's Faction: The current leader of the Church of the Light (I haven't determined an official title for him yet), is Augustine XVI. Most of the Church of the Light, both mainstream and Illuminated, regard him as a wise and powerful man, but some of his policies are very strict, even tyrannical. Still, they obey, as Augustine seems to carry the power of the gods behind him. Seems, though, is the key word. In actual fact, Augustine made a bargain with a demon centuries ago for power. The demon fuels Augustine's magic, and has given him unnatural long life. The demon has also trained for Augustine a group of fanatical assassins, who enforce his will. Augustine thoroughly believes that what he is doing is for the best, and that while he does not use the power of the gods, the belief he inspires in the people give the Church of the Light strength.

The Freemen: This organization is formed mainly of disgruntled peasants and laborers who have grown tired of the restrictive trade laws of the United Guild of Imperial Commerce, the lax hand of the new Emperor and the open corruption of the Church of the Light. They seek to overthrow the current regime and institute a government of their choosing. Despite the fact that they are peasants, they are legally savvy, preferring to destroy tax documents and unjust laws to people's property, and any Freeman caught looting is harshly punished. The Freemen try to make it clear that they are not stupid rabble caught up in revolutionary spirit. They have clear goals and demands, and they try to be as civil as possible.

Warlord Tasula: Tasula is a strong and cunning man, but his goals are rather mundane. His goals consist of mainly three things: learning how to kill people, making money and getting famous. He, his chronicler and advisor Mendelgoth, and the rest of his men are little more than an army of glorified bandits. Tasula spends much of his time raiding Imperial fortresses and palaces, both for the challenge of battle and the riches he can steal from them

Warlord Pringle: The warlord who calls himself Pringle is a hale and noble man, but sadly deluded. Pringle believes himself to be on a mission from the gods to end corruption and evil in the world, and generally believes the best way to achieve this is to go stomping around with a large army. Pringle means well, but ends up being a wild card in the Imperial crisis because he will attack Imperial troops for percieved injustices. In particular, Pringle despises the warlord Kamoon, and will fight his forces at any opportunity.

Warlord Accolon: Accolon is a former knight of the Empire, who was disgraced for disobeying the orders of his lady. Accolon alone knows that what the lady ordered him to do was wrong, but he took the punishment without objection. Accolon believes there is still a place for honor and justice in this world, and his disgrace actually has given him a newfound freedom he never had before. He and his soldiers roam the Empire correcting injustices, legal or otherwise. He admires the dedication of Pringle, but realizes that Pringle's mild insanity gets him into trouble often, and thus he has not offered Pringle a formal alliance.

Warlord Ryann: Warlord Ryann strives to be the perfect military commander. She was formerly a member of House Selekar before she left the house in disgust over their preference of politics instead of perfection. Ryann fights to prove herself, winning with careful strategy, charismatic leadership and mighty prowess. She never takes any spoils from her conquests, but many regard her as a menace, as while she does her best to minimize casualties on either side, she still engages in meaningless battles that sap the strength of the Empire, just to stroke her formidable ego.

Warlord Kamoon: Kamoon is a short man, so short he could easily be mistaken for a halfling upon first glance, but despite his size, he is a dangerous man. Calling himself the Demon God of Illusion and Deception, Kamoon uses illusions and spells to trick and ensnare his victims. His favorite trick is to tempt men to lie with what appears to be a beautiful woman, but is soon revealed to be a mouldering corpse. Warlord Pringle almost fell for this trick, and this is part of the reason he hates Kamoon so.

Warlord Jordanis: Jordanis is a former abbott of the Church of the Light, whose corruption was exposed and made public by the Illuminated. He'd formerly levied an army in his home province to aid the Emperor in a war, and many of those soldiers went with him. Jordanis has taken over the parish his monastery formerly governed, and has turned it into a fortress. He no longer believes in the Church of the Light, and resides in the former holy place to spite those who excommunicated him.

Warlord Carrock: Carrock came from a backwoods village that was under frequent attack by orc tribes and wild animals, and he grew tough as nails to help defend it. He later made a career out of defending places, forming a company of mercenaries. Carrock and his company work for the Emperor and his retainers both because they pay relatively well and because Carrock feels a measure of patriotism to the Empire, though not enough to fight under their banner for free.

Warlord Gelzibar: A foreigner from the Kingdoms of Ashan, Gelzibar is an enigmatic figure. His main purpose appears to be stirring up unrest in the Empire to make way for a future Ashan takeover, but at the same time, he refuses to communicate with the High King of Ashan. Some believe he aims to claim territory for himself, while others suspect he was exiled from Ashan and hopes to aid in a potential Ashan conquest in exchange for a pardon

Warlord Thuk: Thuk is a rather typical orc warlord. Violent, depraved and thick-headed. His followers are fairly similar. Normally the Empire maintains patrols to keep the orcs under control, but with the current crisis, the orcs have bred like rats and have formed some semblance of an army under Thuk, who drives them on with curses and fists.

Warlord Fragrach: A mysterious half-dragon, Fragrach leads a band of greedy mercenaries to plunder the Empire's wealth. Fragrach is actually acting on the orders of his father, the mighty red dragon Y Ddraig Goch, to steal riches for the dragon's already considerable hoard.

Warlord Xanarax: A hedonistic man who seems to care little for conquest or riches, Xanarax occupied one of the most crime-ridden cities in the Empire and unofficially separated from the Empire. His men maintain the defense of said city, frolicking in the delights of the city.

Warlord Takitalva: One of the four Northmen warlords, Takitalva is a shaman of considerable power. He directs his tribesmen to attack according to visions he claims to recieve from the spirits.

Warlord Arngrim: Second of the four Northmen warlords, Warlord Arngrim cares little for anything but violence. He and his men burn houses, kill men, women and children alike and destroy anything of value. Villages attacked by Arngrim are usually charred ruins with piles of dead bodies.

Warlord Harald: Third of the four Nortmen warlords, Harald is easily the most honorable of them. He only conducts clandestine raids on places and only takes what he and his men need, minimizing casualties if possible. He is currently seeking to negotiate with the villages in his current stomping grounds for tribute so he doesn't need to raid.

Warlord Vibald: Last of the four Northmen warlords, Vibald seeks to make a haven for the Northmen in the Empire, whom he believes have been pushed around by the Empire long enough. Stubborn to the end, Vibald has made an alliance with the dwarves, who supply him with dwarf-forged axes.

The Principality of Ulek: It took conquest to finally unite the bickering dwarf clans under one ruler. Prince Ulek Wintervein, self-proclaimed leader of the dwarves, has declared that "The dwarves are for the dwarves." While they have laid low for a while, when the current crisis emerged they immediately took the opportunity to rebel. They seek to establish a dwarf kingdom in the mountains, which the Empire only nominally rules. To be honest, the Bright Empire wouldn't really care if the dwarves carved a homeland for themselves there, but at the moment, they are another danger to the stability of the Empire.

The United Guild of Imperial Commerce: This guild was formed several centuries ago, in about the middle of the Empire's history. Back then, the Empire was still trying to sort out and streamline trade between the provinces, many of which had their own trade guilds back from when they were independent kingdoms. The Bright Emperor, Plasater IV, commissioned the formation of the United Guild of Imperial Commerce to act as a sort of super-guild. The other trade guilds would send representitives to speak for them, and help facilitate trade between the Empire and its neighbors. Every four years, the Guild holds an election to determine the next Imperial Treasurer, who is a sort of president for the Guild in addition to the duties of the treasurer. Over time, the Guild made amazing amounts of money. In fact, the current treasurer, Louis de Santangel, is so wealthy that he loans money to the Emperor. The Guild's main concern in the war is the maintaining of their profits. They are trying to balance the profits they're making with arms dealing to the various sides (skirting very close to treason in some cases), with the normal, steady profits they'd get during peace-time. They support whomever is in power, but they'd prefer it if the current Bright Emperor were kept on the throne.

The Kingdoms of Ashan: This collection of kingdoms lies far across the sea, and has been at war with the Bright Empire off and on over the centuries. Several times the Empire has had holdings in Ashan's lands, but with the recent troubles, Ashan quickly reclaimed those lands. Ashan used to have territory in Imperial land as well, and it aims to take back that land. The High King of Ashan, Calran, has been keeping a very close watch on the Bright Empire. Should it finally collapse, Ashan will swoop down like a great vulture to feast on its corpse.

The Cult of the Moon Lotus: This "religion" is fairly new, and has erected white marble towers, carved with images of lotus flowers in most of the major cities. They are made up of wealthy, influential people throughout the factions, so they don't take sides in the war. However, people who join the cult vanish without a trace. It's later revealed that they're used as slaves to build a giant "lotus-spire" that stretches to the sky to serve as a beacon for the coming Dark Moon. The leaders of the Lotus Cult are actually advance scouts for a multidimensional undead empire, and they seek to exterminate all life on the world to make it part of their growing dominion.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-05-21, 12:06 AM
I'm having some trouble thinking of the Bright Empire's geography.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-05-21, 08:54 PM
What does one do when they have no freakin' clue how to design a physical world?

Teron
2009-05-21, 09:20 PM
This (http://www.giantitp.com/articles/xO3dVM8EDKJPlKxmVoG.html) might be helpful.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-05-22, 11:22 PM
Okay, that IS helpful, but I'm not too certain how to divide up the Empire. An empire is usually made up of a number of different provinces, and I have no idea how many provinces there should be. I can't really divide the Empire up among the factions, since the factions are not supposed to be local governments. The Empire is the central government, the church has temporal power but it isn't centralized in one province or location, the Houses are all based in the capitol, the Freemen are a loose organization all over the place, the Guild is really only found in the capitol, Ashan isn't going to be on the map, since I don't plan for the PCs to visit there, the Moon Lotus cult just has a temple in each major city, and the warlords are either roving with their armies in some sort of stomping ground which may or may not cross a provincial borders.

I don't know how many provinces I should have, or cities or any of that sort of thing.

Rich makes it look so easy! :smalleek: