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Caxton
2009-05-14, 06:40 PM
Preparing to convert a character from 2e to 3.5 that is famous for dual-wielding. The character will be 14th level. What I want to know is if there's any way to make a 3.5 character a dual-wielding specialist without crippling him. I would appreciate any advice on PRC's, feats, and other such things that would aid such a character. Thanks in advance!

Eldariel
2009-05-14, 07:14 PM
Option #1: Splatbook called "Tome of Battle: Book of Nine Swords". Using the classes presented in there, it's very easy to make potent dual wielders without especially trying.

Option #2: Work, work! Get some extra damage (Rogue from PHB or Scout from Complete Adventurer work great here; Bard can be made work with enough effort), make sure you can trigger them constantly, try to ensure that you can move and full attack each round ('cause if you can't full attack, the benefits of dual wielding are lost). For the mobility-part, there're couple of options:

-Taking 1 level of Barbarian (with Spirit Lion Totem alternative class feature [Complete Champion] that trades Fast Movement for Pounce): This doesn't cover all eventualities, but it's a decent option.

-Going all the way in Dervish [Complete Warrior]. Prestige class designed for just this kind of characters. Of course, there's a drawback: it takes an awful amount of feats to enter. Better dip classes that get bonus feats!

-Taking 1 level of Cleric with Travel-domain (traded for Travel Devotion [Complete Champion]) and Undeath-domain (burning all your Turn Undead-uses for Travel Devotion-uses). This allows you to move as a swift action for 1 minute at a time, once per day+1 use per two burned Turn Undead-attempts.

-Using magic (Anklets of Translocation [Magic Item Compendium], Chronocharm of the Horizon Walker [Magic Item Compendium], Wand of Benign Transposition [Spell Compendium], etc.), 10' steps [Oriental Adventures; DC 40 Tumble-check - also, Training Dummy of the Master from Arms & Equipment-guide if you have 1 Monk-level] coupled with other abilities to try and do it often enough.


Overall, I'd tend towards either Dervish or Travel Devotion as they're the most reliable, and a character like this needs a reliable way to be full attacking all the time. But everything is better with Tome of Battle.

Shpadoinkle
2009-05-14, 07:19 PM
Option #1: Splatbook called "Tome of Battle: Book of Nine Swords". Using the classes presented in there, it's very easy to make potent dual wielders without especially trying.

Not really. The "dual-wielding" discipline, Tiger Claw, sucks for dual-wielders. A handful of maneuvers require you to have two weapons, and a smaller handful allow you to make a normal attack with your off-hand weapon as part of the strike, but that's about it. At least half the maneuvers in Tiger Claw have nothing to do with dual-wielding at all. Also note that NONE of the maneuvers in the other disciplines have what little support for it that Tiger Claw does.

Berserk Monk
2009-05-14, 07:23 PM
There's actually feats for this: two weapon fighting, improved two weapon fighting, and greater two weapon fighting. Aside from a high dex score, they're not too hard to get; just have to have the right BAB. Of course, rangers can get the feats for free with a crap dex score, however, going ranger just for that would be looked down as a bad idea (there are like a billion threads on why Belkar is an idiot for going ranger for this in the oots section of the forum).

Zergrusheddie
2009-05-14, 07:25 PM
The best way to make TWF viable is through bonus damage. Jack B. Quick is also a powerful build, but it mostly focuses on "Hit me once, and I hit you 6 times!" Rogues or Sneak Attack Variant Fighters work well with TWF, but neither of those are optimal. I've played a Sneak Attack Fighter and though it wasn't optimal it was fun. It works really well in games that are only allowing Core/SRD because Fighters end up picking up feats that just are not that great after they've picked up everything else that was important.

If Tome of Battle is allowed, Swordsages and Warblades can pump out some serious damage just because of the amount of attacks you get. A Swordsage with X-ing Mongoose Maneuvers and and 2 Kukris with Wound is just deadly to anything that can bleed. Going Warblade and Bard with Dragonfire Inspiration is another effective way; I had loads of fun with that build and the best part is that you make your friends hit harder too. Fire Immune creatures are a big pain though.

Best of luck mate.
-Eddie

FinalJustice
2009-05-14, 07:25 PM
Not really. The "dual-wielding" discipline, Tiger Claw, sucks for dual-wielders. A handful of maneuvers require you to have two weapons, and a smaller handful allow you to make a normal attack with your off-hand weapon as part of the strike, but that's about it. At least half the maneuvers in Tiger Claw have nothing to do with dual-wielding at all. Also note that NONE of the maneuvers in the other disciplines have what little support for it that Tiger Claw does.

But shadow blade allows one to put Dex on damage, eliminating some MAD, which is pretty good. Also, Desert Wind, with its xd6+IL boosts, enhance TWF damage pretty nicely (but it's fire, there will be immunity). Also, the movement maneuvers like quicksilver motion, sudden leap and pouncing charge allow one move and full attack, which is also mandatory in an effective TWF build.

Eldariel
2009-05-14, 07:26 PM
Not really. The "dual-wielding" discipline, Tiger Claw, sucks for dual-wielders. A handful of maneuvers require you to have two weapons, and a smaller handful allow you to make a normal attack with your off-hand weapon as part of the strike, but that's about it. At least half the maneuvers in Tiger Claw have nothing to do with dual-wielding at all. Also note that NONE of the maneuvers in the other disciplines have what little support for it that Tiger Claw does.

Oh, sure, there're non-dual wielding maneuvers there too. But then there's a large number of boosts and early access to standard action "attack with both weapons", later a maneuver that mimics pounce, then swift action movement to enable full attacking and so on. Even though it's not spelled out, the book fuels TWF and hits it exactly where the problems it normally encounters are and allows you to easily dance by all of them.

Not all the good stuff is in Tiger Claw either; lots of boosts populate other schools and they're pretty much by default great for TWF. Then there are many maneuvers allowing for swift action movement, again great for TWF. Diamond Mind and Desert Wind in particular have a good amount of TWF support.

Then there are two wonderful feats which further enable TWF:
-Shadow Blade: adds Dex to damage when using Shadow Hand weapon! This means you don't need Strength at all.
-Stormguard Warrior: tactical Iron Heart feat which works regardless of your stance (so you can use it in conjuction with Shadow Blade); you can make touch attacks that deal no damage for 1 round to make all your attacks next round with +5 damage per touch attack hitting. Also allows skipping AoOs to improve your hits, but the +5-to-damage mode is definitely what enables TWF most here.


And of course, all the other martial adept goodies, like counters, stances and so on. But especially the above things. ToB fixes everything in Two-Weapon Fighting except for the feat cost (it should only cost 1 feat, not 3).

Frosty
2009-05-14, 07:42 PM
Tome of Battle helps, but not for the reasons stated so far. You want bonus damage. Such as from Bard and Dragonfire inspiration. Bard 4/Warblade 16 for the win in terms of getting anywhere from +7 to +14d6 damage per hit for you and all your allies, and you still have 19 BAB.

Eldariel
2009-05-14, 07:43 PM
Tome of Battle helps, but not for the reasons stated so far. You want bonus damage. Such as from Bard and Dragonfire inspiration. Bard 4/Warblade 16 for the win in terms of getting anywhere from +7 to +14d6 damage per hit for you and all your allies, and you still have 19 BAB.

Lack of bonus damage isn't the only issue in TWF. ToB fixes all the other ones too, except again for the feat cost. You can get bonus damage without ToB just fine, but getting the mobility is hard, requiring at least 1 level of dipping and limiting your options class- and feat-wise awfully lot, while with ToB, simple Swordsage 20 or Warblade 20 is perfectly competent TWFer. And let's face, ToB adds great amounts of bonus damage too (I did actually bring it up; boosts, Stormguard Warrior and Shadow Blade are all huge contributors to this).

Caxton
2009-05-14, 08:19 PM
Ah, this looks good. I think the use of Dervish will help most while staying true to the original character. Appreciated.

Kylarra
2009-05-14, 08:32 PM
I'd talk to your DM about stringing all of the TWF feats into one singular feat that scales with level. Just because needing 3 feats to be half decent with your basic fighting style sucks. :smallsigh:

Eldariel
2009-05-14, 08:45 PM
Ah, this looks good. I think the use of Dervish will help most while staying true to the original character. Appreciated.

Then I suggest either:
Ranger 2/Scout 4
or
Fighter 2/Swashbuckler 3 entry

Ranger 2/Scout 4 has more damage (it should pick up "Swift Hunter" feat from Complete Scoundrel), but less feats. Fighter 2/Swashbuckler 3 is the opposite. Really, it comes down to whether you want the wilderness-abilities or not.

Human is the best race (to get enough feats, especially if your DM refuses to combine the 3 TWF feats into 1), but Elf also has something going on for it in the class named "Champion of Corellon Larethian" [Races of the Wild] that allows adding Dexterity to damage with a bunch of weapons including Scimitars. Revenant Blade [Player's Guide to Eberron] is another terrifying Elf-only combo with Dervish; allows you to deal both ends of Valenar Double Scimitar as a two-handed weapon. Power Attack away! But if you want two separate weapons, the class is not for you.


Of course, any race works (and if you're converting an old character, you probably already have one in mind). I personally really like Scout 4/Ranger 2/Dervish 10/Champion of Corellon 2/Scout +2 for an Elf. Swashbuckler 3/Fighter 2/Dervish 10/Tempest 5 is a decent build too, although annoyingly short on bonus damage sources (best burn some feats on them). Then there's Ranger 4/Scout 6/Dervish 10.

steam_mage
2009-05-15, 06:47 AM
there's a prestige class in complete warior called exotic weapon master which for a 1 level dip would provide a class feature that reduces dual-wielding penalties to -1 if your using exotic weapons (i would suggest bastard swords)

AzazelSephiroth
2009-05-15, 10:14 AM
Personally, I would check out the Complete adventurer. The class is Tempest- 5 levels you get to ignore penalties and have massive mobility. Combine with the Two weapon feat tree and you have a decent fighter already. Combine with abilities like the Psychic Warrior's Pionic Lion's Charge Power or Other pounce like abilites and you can be amazing!
Another option my friend was famous for was the concept of a dual weilding rogue with two daggers and taking the complete adv. invisible balde class--- free action feint and then full atack action, all of them sneak attack... SCARY!!

Glyde
2009-05-15, 10:42 AM
There's also Dual Strike and Oversized TWF feats out there, so if you're not going with a ToB class you may want to take a look at those too. The second is more for flavor, though.

Keld Denar
2009-05-15, 11:42 AM
Tempest is kinda pretty bad. I mean, its not TERRIBLY bad if you are already headed into Dervish, since it only requires what, 1 feat more than Dervish does (Spring Attack, IIRC), but compared to what you get from Dervish, Tempest comes too late and provides too little. It effectively gives you a +2 to hit since it takes away your TWF penalties...big whoop-dee-doo? And making 2 attacks when you Spring Attack? Considering you usually take it after 10 levels of Dervish, you should be Dervish Dancing rather than Spring Attacking, so thats a wasted ability.

Really, do something like Warblade16/Swordsage4, spacing your SS levels out at like, 5, 8, 13, and 16. This gets you a decent amount of Shadow Hand and Desert Wind stuff to compliment your TWFing while drawing heavily from Tiger Claw and Diamond Mind with your Warblade maneuvers. Still finishes with 19/20 BAB and a Warblade IL of 18 (giving you 2 9th level maneuvers, probably Time Stands Still and Mountain Tombstone). Duel wield Shadow Hand weapons like Short Swords and stick to a stance like Assassin's Stance to get +dex to damage from Shadow Blade.

SurlySeraph
2009-05-15, 11:51 AM
There's also Dual Strike and Oversized TWF feats out there, so if you're not going with a ToB class you may want to take a look at those too. The second is more for flavor, though.

No. Dual Strike lets you attack with both weapons as a standard action, but requires you to give up pretty much every benefit you'd get by attacking with both weapons as a standard action, since you only make one attack roll and only get your bonus damage once. And successful TWF is all about bonus damage.

Personally, I'd recommend either a Tiger Claw/Shadow Hand Warblade or a Sneak Attack Fighter going into Dervish.

Glyde
2009-05-15, 11:56 AM
No. Dual Strike lets you attack with both weapons as a standard action, but requires you to give up pretty much every benefit you'd get by attacking with both weapons as a standard action, since you only make one attack roll and only get your bonus damage once. And successful TWF is all about bonus damage.

Ah, right, sorry. Used to playing with a houserule on that feat that makes it not terrible.

Faulty
2009-05-15, 12:00 PM
Just a note about the ToB feat Shadow Blade, the one which lets you add Dex to damage. You must be in a Shadow Hand stance and wielding Shadow Hand favored weapons to use it. So if you plan on doing that, you're best bet is Swordsage with dual short swords.

Eldariel
2009-05-15, 12:39 PM
Tempest is kinda pretty bad. I mean, its not TERRIBLY bad if you are already headed into Dervish, since it only requires what, 1 feat more than Dervish does (Spring Attack, IIRC), but compared to what you get from Dervish, Tempest comes too late and provides too little. It effectively gives you a +2 to hit since it takes away your TWF penalties...big whoop-dee-doo? And making 2 attacks when you Spring Attack? Considering you usually take it after 10 levels of Dervish, you should be Dervish Dancing rather than Spring Attacking, so thats a wasted ability.

Tempest is pretty bad, yes, but Dervish gets Spring Attack as a bonus feat so it's free to enter and it makes for a decent continuation of the Dervish abilities. It's not the best possible option, but if wanting to play Dervish, it makes for a decent finish. Of course, it's better to take levels in ToB-classes, but when using Dervish, I'm pretty much automatically making the assumption that that's not an option.

Two more levels of Fighter for Weapon Spec->Melee Weapon Mastery is a decent option, and of course, Martial Rogue or some feat bomb finishes it off just fine too. It's just that the Dervish 10/Tempest 5 fits so naturally that often causes me to suggest it for the finishing.


Ah, right, sorry. Used to playing with a houserule on that feat that makes it not terrible.

Even then, you're still using a feat on a benefit that should be automatic and one you'll only use for a level or two. Without retraining, it's still bad. With retraining, it's about as good as the equivalent maneuver from Tiger Claw. For what it's worth, I'd rather take the maneuver as it has retraining built in.


Just a note about the ToB feat Shadow Blade, the one which lets you add Dex to damage. You must be in a Shadow Hand stance and wielding Shadow Hand favored weapons to use it. So if you plan on doing that, you're best bet is Swordsage with dual short swords.

You can dip two levels of Swordsage to pick a bunch of useful Shadow Hand-stances and use another class. Assassin's Stance and Island of Blades are both handy. Assassin's Stance in particular adds a nice dose of damage to TWF. Of course, on lower levels, Punishing Stance does that better. Warblade 18/SS 2 can easily spend all its other stances on utility like Hearing the Air, Stance of Alacrity and so on though, using them when the abilities come in handy mostly using the two Shadow Hand stances you picked up.

Of course, Warblade 20 with Martial Study + Martial Stance (Assassin's Stance and Island of Blades can both be picked with just one Martial Study, so it's two feats) to pick up Shadow Hand-stances (one of the two mentioned) can use two stances, so a tradeoff either way. But Warblade 18/SS 2 is probably better up to level 20, so there's that.

Darrin
2009-05-15, 01:40 PM
Just a note about the ToB feat Shadow Blade, the one which lets you add Dex to damage. You must be in a Shadow Hand stance and wielding Shadow Hand favored weapons to use it. So if you plan on doing that, you're best bet is Swordsage with dual short swords.

A non-shadow hand weapon with the Aptitude enhancement (ToB p. 148) might count for Shadow Blade. Check with your DM.